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nightstorm
07-11-2008, 19:08
Well we often hear rumours of what is coming up however what i want this thread to become is a discussion on what you would like to be seen in the Beastmen book which is due sometime next year.

Personally i would like to see the return of 2 wounds per beastmen perhaps keep this to the Bestigor so that it is inline with other elites that have 2 attacks each.

I would also like a Demon Prince that is usable but i think that is probably out of the realms of plausibility.

Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Tokamak
07-11-2008, 19:53
Why do you want two wounds and what elites do have 2 attacks each?

I want plastic trolls.

Wargamejunkie
07-11-2008, 20:06
I would be happy with a solid competitive (note not broken) list with good background.

That is my wish.

Frep
07-11-2008, 20:14
I would like to see a decent well balanced (internally and externally) list with some minor model updates, minotaurs spring to mind.

Personally I just want the BoC to become competitive because I have a friend who really likes beasts but I don't want him to lose too badly of the start and get discouraged and quits

Truculent
07-11-2008, 20:21
Some ideas I've been toying with...
- The Ambush rule as a unit upgrade that can be given to any Core unit, but an ambushing unit will never count toward the Core unit minimum
- Units of Tuskgor
- The return of ranked, separate units of Gor and Ungor (a lot of people would probably disagree - I just hate moving all those skirmishers around; also, ranked-up units look better to me), with skirmishing units as support (maybe skirmishing Ungor could have a rule that allowed Minotaurs to charge through them, too, like Skinks and Kroxigor)
- Herdstones as unit choices (somewhat like DE's Cauldron of Blood)
- The Tree of Woe as a unit choice (a giant, slow-moving Chaos Spawn?)
- An elite caste of heavily armoured Centigor (Ironhooves or something - you'd think at least some of them would stop with the self-loathing, quit the bottle and get their act together)
- Minotaurs in heavy armour, maybe an elite unit of Herdstone Guard or something (because that would look awesome)
- If they're determined not to include Dragon Ogres: Minotaur centaurs instead
- Bray-Shamans with access to the Lore of Life, and with the Second Sign of Amul spell in addition to their other spells (to represent their spirit-walking, fortune-telling abilities)
- More magic items (should be obvious)
- Out with the common giant, and in with a giant minotaur (not really a big deal, though, since the rules for the former could easily be used to represent the latter)
- Mutants (scouts who lead the Beastmen to the towns and villages of their hated former kinsmen)
- A Minotaur hero choice
- A centigor hero choice (or just a 'Tauric Form' upgrade for the ordinary Beastlord, making him move faster)
- A (proper) list of Chaos gifts and mutations
- Plastic trolls and bestigor
- Unridden Chimeras as Rare choices
- The return of the 2-wound Gor (another controversial point... I just like the idea - I'm probably old-fashioned)
- A bestial Daemon Prince
- A less prominent role for Marks (I can't really see Beastmen being very monotheistic)

Phoenix Blaze
08-11-2008, 00:02
I think two wound Gors would be too much, *but* two wound centigor makes perfect sense.

I like the idea of armoured centigor, reminds me of the "knightgor" some people made using Chaos Knight rules and armoured Centigor.

Plastic Bestigor, hell yes, with God specific parts too.

I'd like to see them tackle beasts for what they are, children of chaos. GW keep pushing this pantheon of chaos nonsense, but really, I can only ever imagine beastmen worshipping the raw essence of chaos as they are born of the stuff. Although rules for marks would still be good.

In the last issue of WD there was a brief mention of why would Dragon Ogres, who live in mountains, fight alongside beastmen who live in the woods. So it's the woodland dwelling beastmen, always at war with the world I'd like to see.

EDIT: ooh, and a special character of a beastlord who has either acheived daemonhood or is on the way.

sulla
08-11-2008, 00:05
So, it's an infantry horde. That means fairly cheap. And it's low Ld so that means baiting, fleeing etc are not going to be very effective tactics.

To make it competitive, I would hope for bigger beasts to ignore panic from smaller ones.

Bestigors should be cheap enough to not worry if they are broken by faster opponents or preferably should be hard enough to reliably hold vs most charges. How, I don't know.

Minotaurs should be able to get better armour; they are beloved of the chaos gods, unlike the rest of the lowly scum.

Fighter heroes suffrer the same problems as O&G ones do. Not tough enough to withstand a charge. Chaos armour as standard and some decent cheap protection from magic items? Definately a list of useful mutations to bolster the vulnerable heroes. Bray-shaman are great as is though.

Spawn to special choices; they should be more common in a beast army and 8 spawn would be fun.

Chariots also to special; core chariots are wrong.

Personally, I'd be happy to ditch marks altogether from beasts. Perhaps they simply don't rate highly enough in the gods standing, or as above, they worship the entire pantheon (including daemon princes). A single beast-lore of magic. Easy to cast to represent a more shamanistic magic than the devestating spells mortal warriors use.

Seth the Dark
08-11-2008, 00:30
I would say a much bigger selection of magic items. This should happen since the current Beasts list was suppose to work in conjunction with the old Hordes of Chaos list.

I don't know why people would want to get rid of the marks as the Beastmen are literally the children of Chaos and should thus have the favor of the Chaos Gods.

Tony
08-11-2008, 00:56
The following is something I wrote up on Herdstone of what I'd like to see. What I wanted to emphasise was a low-leadership, low-armoured army that was the most maneuverable in the game. So more things get ambush and raiders.

Special Rules:
Ambush: Units with the rule can always ambush regardless of who is the general, but if the army is lead by a Gor (Wargor or Beastlord) ambushers test on +1Ld.
Raiders: Models rank minimum 5 wide.
Children of the Dark Wood: Because beastmen have seen every scary thing imaginable they are Immune to Psychology when charging. This was they have good psychology protection, but can still be easily broken with outnumber/fear.

Marks:
No marks! GW has never been able to balance armies with marks. They always overestimate the power of them.

Mount Options for characters:
Tuskgor, and some other big nasty thing.

Lords:
Beastlord: +1T, 105 points.
GBS: No change.
Doombull: +1W +1I, a bull charge ability like the Ogre's gut charge.
Daemon Prince: Like the WoC one, but with better options for weapons and armour. A 400 point support character is useless.

Heroes:
Wargor: +1 T.
Bray Shaman: No change.
Deathbull: M6 WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W4 I5 A4 Ld8 130 points. Has the charge ability, and can be a BSB. Also, two units of Minotaurs may be taken as core.
Bloodhoof: M8 WS5 BS4 S5 T4 W2 I5 A3 (4) Ld 7 100 points. Sobriety: All units of Centigors can choose to ignore their stupid or frenzy roll. Also two units of centigors can be taken as core.

Core:
Herds: Same, but with an option for one unit to have a 25 point magic banner.
Bestigors: 11pts, Raider and Ambush, or you can exchange both these rules to have them rank up.
Chariots: Same
Warhounds: Same
Gor Trackers: M5 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 I3 A1 Ld7 9pts. Scout, Raider. Equipped with two hand weapons with the possibility of taking throwing axes.

Special:
Trolls: Dropped
Ogres: Dropped
Centigors: Same, except make them fast cavalry.
Minotaurs: Same, except give them a heavy armour option, 6+ scally skin save and bull charge.
Gorgoyles: M1 WS4 BS0 S3 T4 I4 A1 Ld7 12pts. Fly, equipped with 2 hand weapons.
Tuskgor Cavalry: Bestigors (same stats) mounted on Tuskgors (same stats). Raiders. Equipped with spears, heavy armour, shields. 22pts

Rare:
Giant: Same.
Spawn: Same.
Gorgon: 200 points, M6 WS6 BS4 S6 T5 W5 I5 A5 Ld9. Terror, ItP, Stubborn, 4+ Scally Skin. Gaze of the Gorgon: Any unit within 6" of the Gorgon must take a Ld test at -2Ld. If they fail they take D6 S4 hits.

Magic Items:
I'm not great with coming up with magic items (which puts me about on par with GW), but I'd like to see something, a banner or an item, that really helps us against flying monsters. The thought over at Herdstone was something like the skaven item that stops fliers flying. I'd like to see banners that do similar things to marks (so that marks are a very special blessing for beastmen), and other items that protect against shooting. As for magic, the entire forest is teeming with warp-twisted wildlife, I'd like to see some herbs, plants and balms that aid greatly in the magic phase.

HalfEvil333
08-11-2008, 01:09
I'd love to see more random monsters in the list, more than the gorgon and harpies. Ungors riding cockatrices, chimeras, or swarms of gribbly mini-spawn creatures.

I don't like the idea of Gors with 2 wounds, just seems a little over the top. I'd like to see Bestigors get 2 attacks and Minotaurs with heavy armor though.

A boost to the fighty characters' stats would be nice, closer to the mortal equivilants. Not really in the WS or I, but attacks and S/T would be nice.

Dexter099
08-11-2008, 01:40
universal rule: all beastmen gain +1 str. on the charge: after all, the beastman army is supposed to be ike a tidal wave.
Bestigors get 2 wounds each.
Dump Dragon Ogres, keep minotaurs, ogres, and trolls.
Minotaurs: 3 attacks each, option for great weapon or 2hws, 6+ save from tough hide, option for light or heavy armor.
Trolls: 4 attacks, same.
Chaos Ogres: same.
Centigors: 2 wounds each, no more frenzy/stupidity.
Mutant beastmen: WS3, S4 T4 I3 A2 scaly skin 6+. Can be bought extra mutations such as +1A, +2 save, +2I, fear and immune and to psych.

grumbaki
08-11-2008, 01:57
15 special characters, each one who has an ability that changes the way the army operates!

But seriously...

I like the idea of having ambush being an upgrade. However, I'd like to see the beastmen cause fear when they charge during the turn them come on the table. I mean, that's got to be scary!

Another thing that I'd like to see would be mutants. The fluff always has mutants going off into the woods, who join either small groups or beastmen herds. So how about a cheap ranked up infantry unit.
M-4 WS-3 T-3 W-1 I-3 A-1 Ld-6, with basic equipment choices. However, they get the option of picking a common mutation effect.

And finally, maybe a hit and run special rule.

Justicar_Freezer
08-11-2008, 03:22
I'd like monsters not like ogres, trolls and the like but more the slinking, horrid nightmareish things almost like Lovecraft thought up. Things that lurk in the darkest parts of the forests and don't really look like anything else in the warhammer world.

Maybe even add a were-wolf type creature and a big mutated bear/moose/elk type giant monster thing. Heck even different types of mutated normal forest animals would be interesting.

I'd much prefer seeing things like the above over trolls and ogres. Just to make the beastmen different and more of that horrible thing that lurks in the dark places and rushes forth when you feel the safest.

Well you said it was a wishlist after all. :D

Lister of Smee
08-11-2008, 04:04
I think giving beastmen fear on the turn they charge is not a good idea as basically everything looks scary when it charges. This would not gell well with other units like giants and minotaurs that already cause fear.

I reckon there should be lots of strange large monsters from mythology as well as at least 1 heroe choice for each beast race in the same vain as Doombulls.

Quetzl
08-11-2008, 04:13
Plastic Centigors, Bestigors and Minotaurs are what I reacon we'll see.

Eldramesha
08-11-2008, 05:23
Perhaps corrupted forest spirits?

destroyerlord
08-11-2008, 06:56
Tuskgor Cavalry: Bestigors (same stats) mounted on Tuskgors (same stats). Raiders. Equipped with spears, heavy armour, shields. 22pts
Skirmishing cavalry? Are you kidding me? Who would bother with gargoyles/harpies when you could take skirmishing cav? I don't like the idea of tuskgors as mounts, but I think a centigor character/mutation would be an excellent way to include a fast hero/lord into the army.
I like the idea of more big nasties that are a bit more unique. Chimeras come to mind, and gorgons as rare choices could be cool. Minos are definitely in, but I'm not so sure about ogres/dragon ogres. Trolls make sense as fighting alongside the beasts of the wild, but since OK came out the ogres have had a bit of a different personality. They seem more likely to fight alongside the empire than the beasts of the forest, IMO. Besides, no army needs 4 different ogre sized monster units (except for OK).
Two wound infantry sounds strange to me, although it would make them a lot more powerful. The enemy would need to cause a LOT of wounds to knock out the front rank on the charge, meaning that they could always get some strikes back. I could see it making bestigors a more competitive choice.
Immune to psych while charging could be an interesting, and powerful, army wide rule. I think +1S on the charge is more likely from GW though.
Mutants would make an interesting thematic addition, in much the same way as cultists in WoC, but I just can't see it happening. They are essentially covered by ungors at the moment anyway. What would they add to the army that ungors don't already?
I think marks should be available, and grant a powerful boost, but perhaps only to certain units. Kind of like how it is now I guess. I don't think they should be a way to tailor your entire list though like they are in WoC.
More magic items is a given, since the current book was written with the HoC armory available to it.

nightstorm
08-11-2008, 09:48
For those who are having trouble with the two wound infantry. This hails back to a bygone era of 3rd ed where beastmen as standard had two wounds.

I also completely agree about the mutant comment by destroyerlord above great for a theme in the army but essentially they would be ungors.

Odin
08-11-2008, 12:23
Hmm, I'm really not too keen on some of these suggestions.

There are a lot of people suggesting chaos armour for minotaurs. To be honest, I think the BoC army should have virtually no armour, like the Wood Elves. The WoC are the "steel and iron" army. Beasts should be much more naturalistic (did I just invent that word?).

To fix minotaurs I'd make them Move 7 (surely they are faster than ogres, in the same way as gors are faster than humans?), and reduce their cost by about 5 points per model.

Centigor hero needs to happen. I reckon a minotaur hero is probably OTT though.

Some sort of big monster as a rare choice. I like the idea of a chimera, though I wonder how much a flying creature fits with a forest-based army. Still, Wood Elves have Eagles and Warhawks, so I guess there's no reason not to.

I'm in two minds about Centigor becoming fast cavalry. The rank bonus can be pretty handy. I think my answer would be to do the same as Wolf Riders and Marauder Horsemen - i.e. they are normally fast cavalry, but become normal cavalry if they have both light armour and a shield.

Archangel
08-11-2008, 13:51
I just love this Gnarlhorn giant satyr from Privateer press
http://www.privateerpress.com/HORDES/gallery/default.php?level=picture&id=151

I'd like to see more of these types of beasts in our army, things like gorgons, cockatrice, giant spiders etc I'm sure GW could easily come up with similar things. You can already get a dark pegasus, so what about a herd (unit) of dark unicorns? Keep the chariots, but give us alternative beasts to pull them. It would be great to see the return of the Fen Beast from the Albion campaign and the Thing in the Woods from Mordheim, all with our beastmen herds of course.

Da Black Gobbo
08-11-2008, 14:06
Well here goes my wish list:

Plastic trolls (PLEASE!!!)
some kind of Hound hero (not karanak) something like Throg but that makes the dogs better.
Gors and Ungors split in differet units.
Ambushing as an upgrad (as said above)
dogs beeing fast cavalry
Minotaurs able to get chaos armour and with a better profile
Some kind of Dread Treeman twisted by the dark powers
plastic bestigors
Make marks less necesary
some kind of forest mutant predator, something really hard in CC with high movement and skirmishing

thats all

Phoenix Blaze
08-11-2008, 14:10
Ah, the Thing in the Woods, that'd be perfect for a beasts monster, as it is just some big, mutated beasty!

I'd rather not see all these fantastical monsters in the new beasts book. I'd like to see an army made up of goat-men, with maybe a monster or two as support, like a giant or Minotaurs. Introduce too many monsters, and I think the beastmen themselves wil become second fiddle to the big gribblies.

This army should be about the raiding parties and the savagery of the goat men. Saying that, while causing fear when charging is a bit much, a strength boost or maybe additional "gore" or "horn" attack would be nice. Gor, Bestigor, Wargor's etc have big chunky horns, and I can imagine them just putting their head down and charging full speed into the enemy.

theunwantedbeing
08-11-2008, 14:13
Centigor would do well to be 2 wound fast cavalry
Minotaur hero (perhaps ditch the doombull option completely)
A Chimeara as a rare slot monster

I dont see anyone but the odd hero getting chaos armour, perhaps only bray shamans getting it.
Not even sure there's a need for any flying unit for them.

Changing the raiders rule to just skirmishing and being able to get +2 rank bonus.
Paying for ambush sounds like a good idea, as does not making them count towards core if they do ambush.

Things I dont want to see:
Lots of armour, beasts have never been heavily armoured. The odd character, sure but regular troops no.
Tuskgor mounts for character's.
Seperate ungor and gor units.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-11-2008, 15:15
Something to prevent them being mashed up by big terror causing monsters would be great. I'd also like to see more units with access to marks as has happened with warriors of chaos.

There are obvioulsy a lot of minor tweaks that could be made but those are the two elements I'd most like to see.

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2008, 16:57
I'm not interested in making Beasts stronger or weaker but I would like to see interesting changes or abilities:

1) The main change needed - One word - simplification of stats and rules. Too many Beast novices forget essential rules.

2) No mixing with WOC or Daemons - I'm sure this will be implemented but Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths etc will/should remain.

3) Separating Gors and Ungors into individual core units

New abilities:
A) Army wide special ability for most units - treat all woods as open ground?
B) Hatred against WE and the human races.
C) Some form of squabbling - maybe Ungors only? Immune if a Beastlord is the general
D) Herdstones - Stone markers placed on the battlefield which confer bonuses to Beast unit within its vicinity. E.g. ASF or +1CR etc. Can also be carried by Minotaur characters.
E) Chaos Marks bestow abilities which are different from WOC. Maybe each Mark affects base stats in appropriatre ways.
F) A simplified Eye of the Gods table e.g. 1-2 = +1A ; 3-4 =+1T; 5-6 = +1 Ward Save plus Stubborn.

zak
08-11-2008, 17:46
Here are my suggestions: -

- Gor handlers for the warhounds with M7. +1 attack on the charge akin to the slavering charge of the old dire wolves to represent the extra training/beating they get from the handlers.
- Ungor scouts with hand weapons and slings (or without if your purist).
- Centigors with heavy armour and 2 wounds (keep the drunken test in).
- Mino's with heavy armour as an upgrade for one unit. The background is that the mino's guard the treasure/armour around the herdstone. So therefore no reason why they should not have access to some armour.
- The WoC review in WD leads me to think that Trolls and Dragon Ogres will be dropped from the list.
- A minotaur centaur creature. M8 WS4 BS2 S5 T5 W4 I3 A3 LD8. It should also have an additional trample attack on the turn it charges, cause fear and have light armour. Bull centaurs anyone!
- Get rid of the 4 wide ranking rule.
- Bestigors with the option to take other weapon options.
- Useful maical items.
- A random army wide rule....because it seems to be standard.

Phoenix Blaze
08-11-2008, 18:00
I really like the idea of bringing in Herdstones. Last time it came up, all I could think of was like a giant carrying this massive Herdstone on his back, pretty much the same as the Kriel Stone Bearer in Hordes http://www.privateerpress.com/HORDES/gallery/default.php?level=picture&id=60.

But I'd also like to see maybe a few Minotaurs dragging the thing instead.

It could give Ld bonuses a plenty.

Von Wibble
08-11-2008, 18:22
For those who are having trouble with the two wound infantry. This hails back to a bygone era of 3rd ed where beastmen as standard had two wounds.

I also completely agree about the mutant comment by destroyerlord above great for a theme in the army but essentially they would be ungors.

Actually beastmen had 2 wounds in 4th edition also (can't remember for 5th). If bestigor get this it makes them more resilient than gors to shooting (not the case on a per points basis atm because of skirmish), and means that their great weapons get to hit back ni combat - however enemies can cause damage whilst charging them and therefore still get a reward. This seems the right way to go to me. Giving them 2 attacks like saurus, black guard, swordmasters or chaos warriors just doesn't seem right.

Chariots? In woods? Wood elves lost theirs for this reason - beast ones either need to change in how they operate (eg light, move through terrain) or go imo.

I would want to see more monster heroes (centigor and minotaur).

Cockatrice strictly speaking doesn't live in the forest but for some reasno wasn't included in the chas army book so it would be nice to see this. Gorgons also would be good.

Marks for beastherds (since marauders get them). But MoN would make them pretty much immune to roll to hit shooting, and MoS and MoK with immune to fear + terror + panic does too much to cover a clear weakness. The effects will need watering down

eg Khorne- +1A, must charge all in range
Tzeentch - 6+ ward (+1 to cast)
Slaanesh - Immune to fear and terror (or reroll fear, terror, panic)
Nurgle - -1WS for enemies in btb.

It would also prevent them becoming too expensive.

Agree with deathless draich on all points except B. I feel this encroaches on dark elf special rules too much. If it just applied to wood elves that could be OK. Humans after all covers a lot of options - empire, brets, chaos (why would they hate chaos?), regiments of renown...

Oh and I don't think gor and ungors should be split. Don't see the point - its not like a min sized beastherd is expensive (filling ungor role) and you can always maximise 1 type within a herd anyway.

SolarHammer
08-11-2008, 20:04
Put them in ranked units. We already have one stupid gimmick "skirmish" scenario army in Wood Elves.

Tohellweride
08-11-2008, 20:51
While at first i liked the idea of the herdstone being used in battles, the more i thought about it the less i like it. We already have the chaos warshrine in WOC, and making it a static piece makes it too much like the idol of gork from SOC.

As far as things i would like, chimera seems to be a standrad on the wish list. Some decent plastic Mino models would be nice (no more feet!).
But the army should be built around the best herds, drop the option for core minos. They are herdstone guardians so cannot see why whole armies of these guys march to war and not a gor in sight.

By the same token give minotaurs an option for heavy armour to compensate. The majority of the army should be lightly armoured and fast moving. They are "raiders" after all.

Maybe even give shamans their own lore.
Can see the reason fluff wise for dropping the dragon ogres, but keep trolls. Sure there are plent of bridges for them to live under. :p

Phoenix Blaze
08-11-2008, 22:23
Wouldn't they be River Trolls then?

I'm liking this idea for a lore for Beastmen, and I also like the idea of it being made of low level spells. Makes me think of the Gut Magic Ogres have.

I sometimes think Beastmen are always seen as an add on to Chaos, rather than an army in their own right. I used to see Daemons this way until their new books really gave them a strong identity, so I hope that a new Beasts book will really focus on the Ungor, Gor etc. and give the Beasts of Chaos a strong independent identity.

World_Funeral
09-11-2008, 00:25
First of all, a second attack for a majority of beastmen. Why? In the Eye of the Gods table, on a roll of 5, it reads:

"Razor-Sharp Horns: The favoured one's skull twists and grows until he bears a great set of horns, often in the shape of his patron deity's sigil. He has +1 Attack."

So, the Beastmen, a race who's hierarchy is based on the size of their horns, doesn't have an attack for them? Hell, in Khazrak's fluff he uses his horns to gouge out Boris Todbringer's eye. Perhaps it can just be A1(2) like the centagors.

Also, plastic minotaurs. It's completely unrealistic to field more than 4 of these right now on a budget. They're a mainstay for beastmen armies, but like everything else for the beastmen, they're metal, so they're expensive.

Keep the Dragon Ogres. It's already part of our fluff that Gorthor earned the respect of the Dragon Ogres, and Khazrak led Shaggoths into battle in the Storm of Chaos.

Kalec
09-11-2008, 07:45
Plastic minotaurs, plastic trolls, plastic dragon ogres, and plastic chimeras would be perfect. Some rules would be nice too.

Leogun_91
09-11-2008, 08:38
some kind of Hound hero (not karanak) something like Throg but that makes the dogs better.Makes sense fluffwise to include Khazaraks hound (the one Boris killed) and it could take the hound improvement rule from Khazarak and add one of his own, could also have a rule if his master is in play (he did save Khazarak once).

Daemonia
09-11-2008, 08:41
Plastic minotaurs, plastic trolls, plastic dragon ogres, and plastic chimeras would be perfect. Some rules would be nice too.

Screw rules. This alone would make the army amazing IMO.

Delicious Ron
09-11-2008, 17:49
Put them in ranked units. We already have one stupid gimmick "skirmish" scenario army in Wood Elves.

If they are going to stay as forest raiders (which I dearly hope) ranked units wouldn't make any sense.

SolarHammer
09-11-2008, 19:04
Well I am sick of playing games against piece of crap "armies" that are better off in 40k.

Wood Elves aren't an army, they're a scenario. Beasts, the same, they're just so unpopular no one has to deal with them.

Screw them, give them ranked units. I don't care about their background.

Da Black Gobbo
09-11-2008, 19:15
Well I am sick of playing games against piece of crap "armies" that are better off in 40k.

Wood Elves aren't an army, they're a scenario. Beasts, the same, they're just so unpopular no one has to deal with them.

Screw them, give them ranked units. I don't care about their background.

Now, that was a Solar hammer :p.

Phoenix Blaze
09-11-2008, 19:24
I guess we know what kind of gamer SolarHammer is then.......


And what's so bad about Woodelves. If used correctly, they can be devastating. Just pop over to asrai.org and see what I mean. Woodelves are not a "scenario", they're a highly mobile force with troops that can dish out the pain, but sadly, can't really take it.

But, I would like to see ranked Gor. Even if it's a rule whereby if you take a certain General or Special Character then Gor can rank and Ungor skirmish. This is something I thought of doing myself a few years back. A special character who leads around units of Gor and Bestigor, seeing that Ungor are weak and military order combined with the strength, speed and toughness of beasts can be mightily powerful.

SolarHammer
09-11-2008, 19:28
If used correctly, they can be devastating.

That's my point. They don't "play Warhammer" when they're devastating. Warhammer units march, wheel and reform. Wood Elves just 40k themselves around the board. Warhammer units care about little things like terrain, facing, front and flanks. Wood Elves? Nope!

It's a crappy scenario of "can I get my stuff to engage his 40k units before his bolters render the game pointless." Any game you can have against Wood Elves, you could have just as well against Space Marines.

Now Beasts don't shoot, but they sure as hell don't care about maneuvering. "I'll just move this clump with 360 degree line of sight over here, and this clump with 360 degree line of sight over there..."

Make them ranked. Make them play Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Phoenix Blaze
09-11-2008, 19:33
Hmm, good points, both about Beasts and Woodelves. Although, with regards to the Asrai, my own 1000pt force includes few shooting units. It's more about the Wardancers and Wild Riders :D

And yes, when using Beast Herds, I just lug them up the board as fast as possible, not having to care about flanks and rear attacks.

If we're going to be realistic though, do you think GW will really do that? I think not. I'm honestly not sure what they'll do to my beloved Beasts, but whatever it is, I'll expect the worst for now as to not be disappointed when the book finally comes out.

Nightsword
09-11-2008, 19:56
I agree with this statement:


Hmm, I'm really not too keen on some of these suggestions.

Some of these suggestions are ridiculous. Nothing here is original, barely anyway. Tuskgor cavalry and tuskgor mounts? Why? Something fresh and new would be awesome, not a cheap ripoff of boarboyz. Tuskgors are awful and the chariot should go too. Ideas about a modified eye of the gods table... Why?! Daemon didn't get one, it something that is unique to WoC and so it should stay.

Armoured Centigor sound nice, but doesn't really fit the fluff. And I *highly* doubt you'll see plastic trolls or minotaurs. The new Kroxigor are metal, new terradons are metal so I expect, *if* we get new trolls (which were redone with the last release don't forget), minotaurs and Dragon Ogres, expect them to be metal IMO.

akgaroth
09-11-2008, 20:15
I think the ambush and raiders rules are good as they're now, but i think they should change something for wargors and bestigors (they SUCK).
For what concerns beastslords and wargors, i think they should have +1WS (so WS7 and WS6 respectively). For bestigors, they should have options to have 2HW/shields/halberd like any other "elite" troop and they should move freely amongs woods. I don't get it why bestigors can't while gors can (as skimrishes).
And there shouldn't be any mark limitation (but this is something it'll probably happen).
More magic items, please, and give them the possibility to have enchanted items (and move in this section horn of great hunt).
I'm curious to see how the gorgon will be like, and i think it's a good idea to include a centigor hero option. It would also be great if they put the herdstone (much like Gorko statue in Grimgor 'ard boyz in SoC campaign army list). And I think they should drop ogres, trolls and chariots (they're too clumsy to move in the forest).
For what concers miniatures, I hope to see new plastic bestigors, minotaurs and dragon-ogres. I would also be glad to see plastic centigors, but they're relatively new, so that's unlikely to will happen.

Phoenix Blaze
09-11-2008, 22:19
With the release of plastic chaos knight and marauders, I'd fully expect to see plastic centigor, the only cavalry available to beasts.

Seriously, making them all metal is ridiculous. If they plastic I'd be using tonnes of them, but as it stands, not a chance in hell.

Astraeos
09-11-2008, 23:19
A few of the things I've thought of have already been mentioned in the list.

I did think of maybe flying gors, but someone else beat me to the idea, and with the clever name of Gorgoyles too! Bravo to that man I say!

I'd like to see some sort of monster, the book is called Beasts of Chaos after all. I'm not sure of the Chimaera, I thought they inhabit mountains any way. The idea of something like the Thing in the Woods (which someone else also said before me) will be much more suiting I reckon. I hope Chaos Hounds stay, I can see the woods containing them even if they are mutated wolves.

If we do lose the Shaggoth, having another large monster will make up for that (providing the model is as good as the Shaggoth). Personally I'm hoping the Shaggoth remains, even if we do lose the other big guys that went over to the Warriors of Chaos.

Perhaps Giant Spiders as a stand alone light cavalry unit? Like the ones Forest Goblins ride, but minus the riders.

Gors, or even Bestigors mounted on Tuskgors are an idea that may be useful, but may impede the whole infantry army idea.

Maybe a rock thrower? When Beastmen raid villages having a few rocks to smash open buildings and other hiding places to flush anyone trying to hide could be in character. If not a rock thrower then maybe some kind of beast trained or forced to hurl rocks. Even Warriors of Chaos are getting a war machine these days, why not Beasts?

And some more Special Characters. I'm not keen on the Morguth (I probably got his name wrong, he also know as the Master of Skulls) model myself and would also like some more infamous Beast characters that are "currently alive".

Phoenix Blaze
09-11-2008, 23:30
I like the idea of a big beast hurling rocks around, like I *really* like it. It'd also make the most sense as far as war machine are concerned. It's a warmachine that can fight back!

Gor on Tuskor....I just don't see it happening. Too similar to boarboyz. Same goes for giant spiders, that's a gobbo thing. Mixing units like that is never a good thing.


Gorgoyles......genius....

Daemonia
09-11-2008, 23:34
Gorgoyles......genius....

Agreed. They should definitely make the unit for name alone.

Phoenix Blaze
09-11-2008, 23:36
It'll never happen, but what about other animals? Why is it only animals like cows, goats, bulls etc. that beastmen represent. What about lions, tigers and bears (oh my)? I don't see it happening, but at least hinting at other Beast races would be good to see. Giant birdmen for a flying unit or something.

If GW ever release rules for the armies of the far east, I wanna see a Cathay style Tiger beastman army!

Astraeos
10-11-2008, 00:06
I had a look back and it was Tony who came up with the Gorgoyles name. Quite simple but still brilliant. A lot of the good ideas are often quite simple when you look at them.

Back in the very old days, some Khorne Beastmen had canine heads and I'm pretty sure Tzeentch beastmen had eagle heads. Apparently bull headed Beastmen were Slaanesh and I can't remember anyhting about Nurgle ones other than the usual plague stricken rotbags that Nurgle worshippers are.

This gives me an idea, what if there were was a different Beastmen unit for each Chaos God? Beastmen are the children of Chaos after all.

And I'm glad my idea of a rock chucking monster went down well. What about a giant bow on the back of a Tuskgor? Like the skinks have on their stegadons.

Dexter099
10-11-2008, 03:01
What should the army wwide special rule be?

I say +1 S on the charge. What do you guys think?

Daemonia
10-11-2008, 03:52
What should the army wwide special rule be?

I say +1 S on the charge. What do you guys think?

Something to do with movement through forests (and being a light raiding force) and Hatred of the Wood Elves. Though to be fair, I'm quite happy with my Hate of tree huggers without a rule in my army against them.

Tony
10-11-2008, 03:54
Thanks for the praise guys. Very flattering.

As for some of the rules and criticisms our flying, I just wanted to address some of them.

1) +1S on charge: I think that it's a not bad idea, but it is simply a copy/paste of what Orcs get, and it really doesn't address any of Beasts of Chaos' problems. We're fine at hitting hard, but as maneuverable as we are our problem is and always has been getting into combat. We have, hands down, the worst leadership in the game and also the worst psychology, and with the prevalence of fear (even High Elves have it!) we are suffering more than ever (and dragons scare away our big nasties, too). What we need is something to address this. This is why I think:

2) Immune to Psychology on the charge: I think this is a great rule, and I have to thank the guys over at Herdstone who suggested it. It means that we overcome a big problem, but we still have to face the problem of fear outnumber in combat, and terror checks around our units, and being charged by fear causing units. It is simple, but it doesn't take away the psychology phase like it did with Undead and Demons (boring!).

3) The Thing in the Woods: Although this concept can go anywhere, I really don't like the idea of 'big chaosy mutant thing' because it's just so boring and easy. Such mindsets are what brought us the yawnorama Forsaken. I think it's ok if it's not just some mutant monstrosity thing.

4) Getting rid of Skirmishing: I'd be interested to see whether this comes from Beastmen or non-Beastmen players, and I tend to think the latter. And it seems that this thought comes from playing Wood Elves. That's all well and good for tree pansies, but Beastmen are a CC army. It sucks playing non-engagement, but this is Chaos here! What Beastmen player could win without engaging, even if his whole army is skirmishing? We smack face, that's what we're good at. And without skirmishing I see absolutely no reason to play Beastmen now that Chaos have 4pt marauders and monsters (Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres). Besides, only Herds skirmish (and hopefully Bestigors will too!) - not really a whole skirmishing army here.

4) Marks: This one is really a toss-up, and I can see why pursists like it. But my thought is that GW are so bad at balancing marks it isn't even funny. They underpower the list expecting people to take marks which are a huge amount of points (Nurgle, Tzeentch) and even with many drawbacks (Khorne). I would much prefer just a straight list with interesting units rather than gimmicky marks. Minotaurs with 4+ armour are fine, but then when they get -1WS to enemies in combat they become too good, so GW thinks 'I'll just take their armour away' and suddenly we have sub-par units or we're forced to take a mark that most of us don't want anyway. Barely any beastmen units were markable before, so I don't think it's a great loss.

5) 2 wound centigors: As long as they're fast cavalry it seems fine. But if chariots are going the way of special (and so the way of never being used) then we need something fast for core, and I can't see 2 wound centigors being core. But hey, stranger things have happened.

6) Better Heroes/Lords: I don't think anyone is arguing against this and I just wanted to say that I agree again.

7) Cavalry: I may have gone a bit overboard with skirmishing cavalry (but I was just playing with ideas), and I do agree they're quite close to Boar Boys (but then almost every WH unit has another army equivalent). But some cavalry will be nice, and not just 'more heavily armoured centigors, which is just dull.

8) Bestigors: Two wounds is fine, but I think skirmish is just as good. Makes them more surivable for shooting and equally so for combat (as they can maneuver into place). I know some hate skirmishing, but I think it's great and fluffy. Also skirmishing GW wielding goats are really, really effective (try proxying in a game) without being overpowered for 11-12 points.

9) Ambush: Just throwing this out, does anyone think it wouldn't be a big deal if ambushers didn't skirmish to other table edges and just moved 2D6 along whatever board edge they're on. Ambush is pretty crap. Does anyone really think this is overpowered?

SolarHammer
10-11-2008, 05:24
4) Getting rid of Skirmishing: I'd be interested to see whether this comes from Beastmen or non-Beastmen players, and I tend to think the latter. And it seems that this thought comes from playing Wood Elves. That's all well and good for tree pansies, but Beastmen are a CC army. It sucks playing non-engagement, but this is Chaos here! What Beastmen player could win without engaging, even if his whole army is skirmishing? We smack face, that's what we're good at. And without skirmishing I see absolutely no reason to play Beastmen now that Chaos have 4pt marauders and monsters (Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres). Besides, only Herds skirmish (and hopefully Bestigors will too!) - not really a whole skirmishing army here.

Non-beastman player here, but I've played Chaos since before it was split. They never used to Skirmish back in the day.

I don't care if they're trying to skirmish their way into combat, I don't want them skirmishing. I don't want another army that doesn't give a crap about its flanks or rear because they can just go 10" in any direction at the drop of a hat. It gives them a huge threat radius and totally does away with 80% of the tactical maneuvering that other armies do.

In short, it's garbage. Many of the most devastating Wood Elf armies seek to engage too. After all their best units are Dryads and Wardancers, which are nothing if not close combat units. Wood Elves have some shooting, but I bet Beasts will have some offensive magic. So the end result is the same.

Phoenix Blaze
10-11-2008, 05:30
I think ambush is great as it is but....only when it works. When it doesn't, it's just another unit on the board, but when it does, it's a unit or two of beastmen possibly with a wargor coming from behind enemy lines.

I'd actually like to see armoured Centigor, it's the natural evolution of a unit choice, and the most likely thing to do in a state of conflict.

And I think +1A on the charge would make more sense than +1S as it represents their horns doing some gore damage.

Da Black Gobbo
10-11-2008, 12:32
What about some kind of "Spidergor"?? or Spiderkin or something like this, some kind of forest hybrid, with M6, move trhough difficult/wood terrain as open field, 3 attacks str4 poisoned and WS3 causing fear, scout or skirmishing, T4 and there you go!

Truculent
10-11-2008, 13:26
If GW reall wanted to go to town, they could introuce fully customizable beastherds... Kind of like Tyranids in 40k. For example, a beastherd would start out as just a pack of undisciplined and ugly humans, and could then be given further mutations. A herd of basic Gors could then be made by giving them a mutation for cloven hooves (+1 M), massive horns (+1 A when charging) and massive stature (+1 T), while Ungor could be made by just giving them cloven hooves and nothing else. The book could include a whole list of such mutations, both god-generic (scaly skin, poisoned attacks, extra strength, magic resistance, spidery legs, tentacles, wings) and god-specific (collar of khorne, soporific musk, cloud of flies), and if you went over a certain points allowance, the unit would become a Special choice or even a Rare choice. They could even make a similar system to allow people to make their own bigger gribblies. I don't expect any of this to ever happen, though - the plastic kits would have had to be as enormous as the number of potentially cheesy exploits.

Leogun_91
10-11-2008, 14:10
If GW reall wanted to go to town, they could introuce fully customizable beastherds... Kind of like Tyranids in 40k. For example, a beastherd would start out as just a pack of undisciplined and ugly humans, and could then be given further mutations. A herd of basic Gors could then be made by giving them a mutation for cloven hooves (+1 M), massive horns (+1 A when charging) and massive stature (+1 T), while Ungor could be made by just giving them cloven hooves and nothing else. The book could include a whole list of such mutations, both god-generic (scaly skin, poisoned attacks, extra strength, magic resistance, spidery legs, tentacles, wings) and god-specific (collar of khorne, soporific musk, cloud of flies), and if you went over a certain points allowance, the unit would become a Special choice or even a Rare choice. They could even make a similar system to allow people to make their own bigger gribblies. I don't expect any of this to ever happen, though - the plastic kits would have had to be as enormous as the number of potentially cheesy exploits.Thatīs not a bad idea and it could work if given some thoughts, the first fix I thought of was to make it different units with different numbers of mutations to chose from, say the lowest core unit is normal crappy humans which can represent mutants in their own right weīll call these bray for simplicity (hornless beastmen for the ones that know little), these are meant to be weak so we give them only 3 mutation/upgrade points, then we take another tougher unit weīll call these ungors, they have a very little stat and point increase and have up to 4 upgrade points, then we have the base troop Gors, these are normal beastmen so letīs say they can have up to 6 mutation/upgrade points, then the really though ones, bestigors weīll call them even if they donīt need to look as them, they are still core but as you canīt have more units of these than you have gors they might take an impressive 10mutation/upgrade points. Warhounds would be allowed four points I think as that would make them customiseable WoC warhounds. For special a simmilar thing would be made for Minotaurs trolls and such.

The upgrades could for example be
Poisonous attacks:3pts per model
Scaly skin 6+:1pts per model
Scaly skin 5+:2pts per model May not be taken by brays or ungor.
Cloven Hooves (+1M):2pts May not be taken by warhounds
Massive Horns(+1A on the charge):2ptsMay not be taken by Brays or Ungor
Massive Stature(+1T):2pts (May not be taken by Brays)
Aquatic:1pts
Winged(Flying):6pts
Bizarre Horror(Fear):3pts
Trollkin (regeneration):5pts

These are just some examples and Iīm sure you can come up with more but take it that you pay those extra points per model to give them this and the extra points per model may not take them above their mutation pts.

Herod
10-11-2008, 14:29
oops. sorry - double post.

Mozzamanx
10-11-2008, 14:29
Gameplay wise, I'd like Beasts to be an exercise in terror. Think 'I am Legend' (or Left 4 Dead is you have it) with the hundreds of fast runts circling and trapping you, while truly horrible brutes smack their way through the crowd to get killing. A great big rush of baying, screaming, mutants which is moving far too quickly for comfort.

Ambush stays in, heavy focus on Skirmish, and the leaders are the difference between an unstoppable horde, and a pack of runts. Basically its a case of outlasting the tide to defeat them. Sort of like Fantasy Tyranids.

Lorewise, please don't give them cavalry. Centigors are fine, but I thought they were kind of united by being rejected. Turning a fellow Beast into a chair seems... wrong for them.

Herod
10-11-2008, 14:30
"I don't care if they're trying to skirmish their way into combat, I don't want them skirmishing. I don't want another army that doesn't give a crap about its flanks or rear because they can just go 10" in any direction at the drop of a hat. It gives them a huge threat radius and totally does away with 80% of the tactical maneuvering that other armies do."

If I wanted to play a army with ranked infantry, I would not have chosen BoC. BoC presents a different challenge, and I'd prefer not to see it go "vanilla".

As far as wish list goes - at this point all I want is to keep some of the models that I spent a lot of time on: DO's, Shaggoth etc. I would like to see chariots stay core as well, but I'm guessing that using the 4 that I built and painted would be unreasonable. :rolleyes:

It would be nice if the army could "hang" with the last few books without being pigeon holed into a very small number of builds.

Finally - plastic Mino's would not suck. :)

H

txamil
10-11-2008, 14:51
Thatīs not a bad idea and it could work if given some thoughts, the first fix I thought of was to make it different units with different numbers of mutations to chose from, say the lowest core unit is normal crappy humans which can represent mutants in their own right weīll call these bray for simplicity (hornless beastmen for the ones that know little), these are meant to be weak so we give them only 3 mutation/upgrade points, then we take another tougher unit weīll call these ungors, they have a very little stat and point increase and have up to 4 upgrade points, then we have the base troop Gors, these are normal beastmen so letīs say they can have up to 6 mutation/upgrade points, then the really though ones, bestigors weīll call them even if they donīt need to look as them, they are still core but as you canīt have more units of these than you have gors they might take an impressive 10mutation/upgrade points. Warhounds would be allowed four points I think as that would make them customiseable WoC warhounds. For special a simmilar thing would be made for Minotaurs trolls and such.

The upgrades could for example be
Poisonous attacks:3pts per model
Scaly skin 6+:1pts per model
Scaly skin 5+:2pts per model May not be taken by brays or ungor.
Cloven Hooves (+1M):2pts May not be taken by warhounds
Massive Horns(+1A on the charge):2ptsMay not be taken by Brays or Ungor
Massive Stature(+1T):2pts (May not be taken by Brays)
Aquatic:1pts
Winged(Flying):6pts
Bizarre Horror(Fear):3pts
Trollkin (regeneration):5pts

These are just some examples and Iīm sure you can come up with more but take it that you pay those extra points per model to give them this and the extra points per model may not take them above their mutation pts.

I really like going this way. At the very least I could see a mutations table instead of a chaos gifts table for heroes and lords.

I'd like a more nature/elements based theme, but a mutant based theme is a good guess and would be fun.

Phoenix Blaze
10-11-2008, 15:45
While the idea of different mutations is pretty cool, I'd rather see it as upgrades for heroes and lords. Having that many choices for the one unit is no longer the kind of thing GW does.

Tohellweride
10-11-2008, 16:25
I agree with phoneix blaze that mutations would be nice for characters. Possibly work like bloodline powers for vamps.

Making them available to units just seems like a nightmare in book keeping, and the extra points spent on giving them to all your troops would mean your horde army becomes very small very quickly.

Unless of course you meant it to work a bit like doctrines for IG in 40k. Even then the balance isuues could prove a problem, and we all know how bad GW are at that. ;)

MarcoPollo
10-11-2008, 16:29
All BoC models "always strike first" on the charge.

This coupled with some of the other fixes and natural tendencies of the BoC line would bring the army back to respectability.

nightstorm
10-11-2008, 19:28
All BoC models "always strike first" on the charge.

I really hope your being sarcastic here but as there is no smiley im guessing your not *fish slap*

Im happy to steer clear of the ASF it doesnt fit in with the beasts character. So what if elves get it and vampires get it, we dont need it.

The name Gorgoyles is pure genius. I say we send emails to GW to make them put it in the book even if its just in the fluff or as an alternative name for harpies. I also like the idea behind the mutations as long as each of them has a viable use.

The only problem i can see with immune to psych on the charge is to do with Marks (assuming they keep them for beasts) as this enroaches on Slaaneshes domain. I agree we need a way to deal with fear/terror as after all a half human half animal hybrid that worships dark gods and hangs around with the likes of minotaurs isnt going to be afraid of a walking skeleton... Its probably going to think "lunch"

To this end possibly a combination of the rule above and the skavens safety in numbers. So if the Gor unit has a unit strength of more than the fear causing unit it ignores fear. This is only for fear not terror as a dragon is still going to scare the brown stuff out of them.

Daemonia
10-11-2008, 19:58
afraid of a walking skeleton... Its probably going to think "lunch"

Now THAT'S hungry :P

If you're really worried about Fear and Terror and Panic...I hear there's some very cheap and effecitve Mark you can give them that all those WoC boys are talking up at the moment ;)

akgaroth
10-11-2008, 22:59
Humm... do you guys think this may work?

-No more Marks (BoC receive gladly any gift of the gods)
Wild beasts army rule (difficult terrain is considered as open terrain)
Only beastlords,wargors and beast herds can ambush
Great bray-shamans and bray-shamans can use the lores of the beasts, of life or of shadows
LORDS
-Beastlord (with WS7)
-Doombull (as it's now)
-Great bray-shaman

HEROS
-Wargor (with WS6)
-Bray-shaman

CORE
- +1 Beast herds (gor=6pts; ungor=3pts; Horn-render with only +1A and +1Ld compared to a normal gor for +12 pts) ; Ambushing herds, there can't be more ambushing herds than normal ones; ambushing units can only have Horn-render upgrade
-Centigors
-Hounds
-Gargoyles M4 WS3 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld7
pts:9pts;+1S when they charge; fly; unit size:5-15

SPECIAL
-Minotaurs
-Dragon ogres
-Chariots
-Bestigors: M5 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 A2 Ld8
Pts/miniature:13; unit size:10+
Equipement: hand weapon and heavy armour
They can have one of these options: 2HW(+1pts/m); shield(+1pts/m);
GW (+2pts/m)
they can have one of these options: skaly skin (5+) for +3pts/m; +1S on charge (+2pts/m); enemies can't bennefit from flank and rear charges during combat resulution (+2pts/m).
Champion (+12pts), standard bearer (+12pts), musician (+6pts)
-Gorgons: M9 WS4 BS3 S4 T3 W3 I5 A4 Ld8
Pts/m:50; unit size:3+
upgrade to Echidna (+1A for +20pts)
poisoned attacks; -1 to hit (CC and shooting).

RARE
-Dragon-ogre Shaggoth
-Chaos spawns
-Beast Herdstone:
blessed minotaur: M- WS6 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I4 A5 Ld8
unit size:1; pts/m:235 US:7
the herdstone is followed by 2 blessed minotaurs with GW and heavy armour, and they have a ward save of 4+ wardsave;the herdstone can't move; if the minotaurs are killed, the herdstone is destroyerd; causes fear; unbreakable; all BoC units can re-roll failed psicology test; once per turn, during the BoC magic phase, one enemy unit in LOS moves as fast as it can towards the herdstone.


Well, this is my wish list (I can still dream, can I?:angel:)
I think centigors can have their place in core units (they're not all that powerfuls)
And the special troops section really needs to differentiate itself from the WoC one.

WhiteKnight
10-11-2008, 23:08
Akgaroth, I like your wishlist. And yes, herdstones would be fun to have. I do think that the doombull should get some kind of upgrade like a tough hide save of 6+. The Gorgons should have a special attack like Deathly Gaze. It would basically be a glare and any enemy unit within 8" will take a leadership check and if they don't pass it, they take D6 Str 4 attacks with -2 to armor.

Seth the Dark
10-11-2008, 23:33
Why are people so set against Marks? Beastmen are the children of Chaos and as such they should be able to receive attention from the Gods.

Astraeos
11-11-2008, 00:07
Been getting some more ideas regarding the beasts.

I liked the fact we had four ogre sized troop types (ogres, D-Ogres, trolls and minotaurs) so I'm hoping we get at least one new troop of this size.
I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of Sasquatch (but maybe be called something else). A unit of them will fit in nicely as bestial chaos tainted humanoids. They could probably move easily through cover and have a high initiative to represent their agility.

I thought about the whole what you find in the cellar idea that Phil kelly mentioned and Gors would be unlikely. But if you look at the Shaggoth's head there's two minute creatures riding it.

So I thought these will probably be the sort you find in dark areas, living near more dangerous creatures in the hopes of scavenging a meal from whatever it kills. And when the beasts go to war, these things will gather in numbers and follow them. These 'Implings' (better than just plain old imps I thought) will be a swarm type of creature.

Seeing as wolves/dogs and boars have become Chaos hounds and Tuskgors respectively, wouldn't the same happen to other forest creatures? Perhaps the Beasts will have some form of Chaos Bear to bring into battle? Beargors?

And as for the psychology thing, maybe beasts should get something similar to what Warriors got? Or roll more dice for a fear test and pick the lowest scores.

ChaosCajun
11-11-2008, 00:39
I doubt we will get to keep dragon-ogres or Shaggoths as the fluff states they are rare and roam the northern wastes. They were given to WoC, so I doubt seriously we'll get them. More likely we'll get trolls and ogres as they are more plentiful. Ogres got chaos armor in WoC, so Minotaurs should get it in BoC as they guard the herdstones and caches of captured weapons/armor. This, plus impact hits and marks, would make Minotaurs a real force and would make ogres and trolls would be redundant.

I personally think that the Raider rule is the key army-specific ability BoC has and it should remain. Additionally, I support Bestigors getting raider rule. Those that oppose skirmish have valid points, but I still support this rule.

Gargoyles with 2 attacks won't happen, but 1A and they'll work. I'd personally prefer harpies as I have many from back before they became furies.....

With flyers and scouts, Ambush can be dropped altogether. It isn't unique to BoC and I get mixed results at best.

0-1 unit Ungor Scouts (skirmishing ungors with javelin/shield with scout ability) as core. These are true skirmishers and not raiders (not brave enough without gors)

Centigors are pretty good as they are and would be more likely to go to core as they are, which I think they should, especially if chariots go to special.

Using marks and gifts like WoC would be ok and Slaanesh would be more useful.

More monstrous troop options like basilisks, gorgons, chimeras, etc. would be welcome.

Daemonia
11-11-2008, 01:28
Not everything in the list has to have 'gor' somewhere in the name, even if Gorgoyles is awesome. I don't see it stopping until you get a Wifegor that causes Terror in models that are home more than 20 minutes late after work.

Making Minotaurs just plain better than Ogres is perfectly fine in my book. Buff them up, mark them, armour them and make plastics of them and you'll make a lot of Beast players happy. I'm not one of them, but I just plain love Minotaur monstermash armies.

How about some better magic items than the WOC got too? More Chaos Gifts? How about a Sacred Libation of the Crimson Minotaur that gives you flight? We all know that Red Bull gives you wings...

akgaroth
11-11-2008, 17:33
Well, my idea was to make a "base list" where we can see how all the ideas you gave could stick together. And, who knows, maybe we can send some of these ideas to GW; perhaps we thought something that would work in the BoC list they're making.

For what concerns marks, I thought it was easier to just drop them to substitute them for mutations. After all, only 3 units beside characters can be marked in the current list and none of the three special characters have Mark. And remember, GW would have also to think about 3 new chaos lores for BoC, as I'm not sure if DoC's and WoC's lores would work with BoC (they're not an "elite army" like the other 2). Maybe they can subtitute it for a single lore, the lore of the herd (or something more inspired)?

Looking at the gargoyles, maybe I did them a bit unbalanced: Ld5 and 10pts/m would be better (I wouldn't do them too much similar to DE's arpies...)?
I also thought to give to gorgons a special attack similar to banshees's ghostly howl (with a name similar to WhiteKnight thought), but I thought afterwards that with M9 they wouldn't use it so much, so I transformed it to the -1 to hit in CC and to shoot against them.
Do you think it would be good if minotaurs would have options similar to bestigor's ones (although they would have to cost a bit more)?
I thought that ogres would be a worthless option (they're already outclassed by minotaurs), is quite possible that chaos trolls will appear (although their king appears in WoC...), and is true that Dragon ogres are more close to WoC rather than BoC... But i'm not sure if GW will be generous enough to give us 2 new monsters units. And for rare choices, i admit i was a bit short of inspiration for the 3rd option besides spawns and Beast herdstone...:o
And talking about herdstone, I realized that its "lash of submission" special effect would be a bit too much powerful: maybe it would be more balanced if it's instead a bond spell with e.c. 5-6?

WhiteKnight
11-11-2008, 18:39
I actually think we'll still have dragon ogres and shaggoths. If you look pg.17, it shows the warband concentration of the beastmen. The beastmen have a large amount of warbands up in the Northern Wastes. That means that we do have access to dragon ogres. Just because we're beastmen, it doesn't mean that were solely forest dwellers. We're part goat and goats go up mountains occasionally. But I would like seeing more special characters. Gorthor is dead so that leaves Morghur and Khazrak. We need a centigor or a doombull special character. But keep doombulls because Chaos Special Characters are EXPENSIVE.

txamil
11-11-2008, 18:45
I don't see it stopping until you get a Wifegor that causes Terror in models that are home more than 20 minutes late after work.

That was awesome. Thanks.

Phoenix Blaze
11-11-2008, 19:03
About the little dudes on the back of the Shaggoth, rumour has it (possibly truth has it too) that the Shaggoth was originally a Warmaster model, where it's scale would really represent how big they are, but they lumped it in with Fantasy instead. The little guys on the back seem to fit this theory with how big they are.

But seriously, Shaggoth's are supposed to tower over mountains!

I like the idea of a Bear, and forest animals that mutate. I'd maybe like to see that extended to Forest Spirits.

Ha, Wifegor....

Truculent
11-11-2008, 20:00
One aspect the new army list should reflect, I think, is the fact that beastmen are constantly vying and challenging for leadership, and would have a definite pecking order. Beastman units could have some sort of 'respawning unit champion'-rule, to represent a new leader immediately emerging from the ranks to take the place of the old one. To draw it even further, there could be a rule forcing a Wargor or Beastlord to kill the unit champion in order to join and take control of a unit during battle. There could also be a special rule stating that the character with the highest Weapon Skill or Strength value is always the general, rather than the model with the highest Leadership. Shouldn't matter much in most cases, since one is usually correlated with the other, but would be characterful.

Talonz
11-11-2008, 20:12
Warhammer units care about little things like terrain, facing, front and flanks. Wood Elves? Nope!

Now Beasts don't shoot, but they sure as hell don't care about maneuvering. Make them ranked. Make them play Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

There are some pretty big differences between beasts and woodies. I hate the latter, love the former.

Beasts dont ignore terrain except for their beastherds. They dont shoot (but for centigors, currently a waste of points), and if they did, they wouldn't ignore the move and fire penalty either. WEs do that in spades, typically avoiding engagement, which makes for a frustrating experience. On top of that, their entire army ignores woods if not all terrain and have ward save 2a s4 t4 undercosted core troops. bleaurgh.

Beasts have chariots and ranked beasties to cotend with that certainly do march, wheel, and avoid terrain like the plague.

Beastherds are a cool concept and a great approximation of germanic battle 'units'. Leave them alone thank you (but for ranking 5 wide).

akgaroth
11-11-2008, 21:19
Oh, what do you think chaos monsters rappresentative of each god (like bloodletters and BT for Khorne, horrors and LoC for Tzeentch,...).

Slaanesh: Gorgons http://images.elfwood.com/art/h/a/harding73/gorgon.jpg

Nurgle: Catoblepas
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Catoblepas.jpg
M4 WS2 BS2 S3 R5 W4 I2 A1 L8
pts/m=55 unit size:1+ special choice
causes fear;Itp ; skaly skin (4+); breath weapon S3 with AP; immune to venom attacks and the lores of Nurgle; each CC phase, each enemy in BSB suffers 1D3 autohits S3 with -2AS.

Tzeentch: Cocatrice
http://feerune.online.free.fr/bestiaire/images/cocatrice-g.gif
M4 WS3 BS3 S2 T4 W3 I3 A3 Ld7
pts/m=65 unit size=1+ rare choice
fly; causes fear; 4+ ward save against shootings (magic or not) ; each Cocatrice generates 1PD and 1DD per player turn.

Khorne: Chimera
http://www.andyparkart.com/images/gallery/concept/god_of_war_ii/chimera.jpg
M7 WS5 BS2 S6 T5 W4 I6 A8 Ld8
pts/m=185 unit size=1 rare choice
causes fear; hate; MR(3); enemies suffers -1 Ld for their fear tests caused by the chimera.

What do you think? Maybe I have exaggerated with something?
Anyways, I think Chimeras and Cocatrices may appear, since GW used them before...

Phoenix Blaze
11-11-2008, 22:06
I like the look of those monsters. The Slaaneshi and Tzeentch ones especially. But the Nurgle one, well, it looks a lot like a cow. If I was facing that, I couldn't take it seriously. The Khorne one, looks good, but not Khornate enough. If GW did something like that but much beefier and possibly with like a big collar and stuff, that'd be great.

Infact, just seeing a big **** off Hound of Khorne would be good.

There are some rackham models out there, called Blood something or others, and they're like big fleshy tiger/bear/wolf things with extreme musculature. They'd be perfect.

Talonz
11-11-2008, 22:53
Like this one perhaps?

http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/RKH/RKHDRCR01_360.jpeg

Thats my khorne bloodbeast fig.

Or did you mean the tigers of dirz?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2398/1795974207_679270841a.jpg?v=

Phoenix Blaze
12-11-2008, 10:37
Yes, the Tigers of Dirz, those guys, although the model in the first link looks pretty damn cool too. A mix between the two would make a great khornate hound from hell and then some!

sandpeople
12-11-2008, 11:36
Beasts of chaos wishlist:

Rules:

Develop ambush even further, to really make it the armys theme.

A minotaur hero choice, making minos core (at least 2 units)

A new special choice. NOT another M6 T4 3W 3A guy on a 40mm base.

Cheaper trolls and shaggoth

Herds either rank up 5 wide or get S4


Models:

New Dragon ogres (the current ones are from 1988!!!)

Plastic minos and trolls

New Shamans (current ones from 1988?)

MarcoPollo
12-11-2008, 17:31
I really hope your being sarcastic here but as there is no smiley im guessing your not *fish slap*

Im happy to steer clear of the ASF it doesnt fit in with the beasts character. So what if elves get it and vampires get it, we dont need it.


I am not being sarcastic. One of the great things about BoC in the past was their ability to control/win the movement phase. Their natural talents lie with this ability. This allows them to get off the charge when and where they like. The stats of the models, and the synergie reflect this tendency.

With the more widely accessible ASF throught the WHFB world, it is not unreasonable to have other units with it.

My wish is to only have this ability on the charge. This would reflect the ability of beasts to surprise attack/ambush where defenders don't have much of a chance to defend themselves.

If they are charged the do not benefit from ASF.

Beast strategy relies largely on trapping and countercharging in order to get heavy hitting units into combat. This strategy need not change, and only needs the "ASF on the charge." rule to help out.

My other wishes include fixing raiders and ambushing so that it is a theme that is viable. Also, some cool flying monsters, (gorgoyles) would be great.

Mozzamanx
12-11-2008, 17:57
How about they cause Fear on a Flank charge?

A braying, screaming band of mutants jumping out of a tree would be slightly scarier than a mouldy Zombie, as well as making it easier for them to deal with hard psychology.

akgaroth
12-11-2008, 20:23
WOOOW:eek:, those miniatures are awersome Talonz!!!
Humm, the problem about ASF is that it would be pretty useless; when you charge you already strike first, and with armies like High elves BoC would anyways strike last as they have less I.
And an army rule should be applied to all the units of the army, an with a lot of special and rare choices that already cause fear...

MarcoPollo
12-11-2008, 23:10
Humm, the problem about ASF is that it would be pretty useless; when you charge you already strike first, and with armies like High elves BoC would anyways strike last as they have less I.


Fair enough. Then how about something like units that BoC charge always strike last, even if they have the ASF rule.

The point being that, because BoC rely on tricky ways to get of a charge, skill in this area should be rewarded and not curtailed. The ASF rule is more widespread these days.

1) High Elves
2) Vampire Counts
3) Slaanesh Demons

are a few that come to mind. As well there are other characters, units that have abilities similar to this. Perhaps even something along the lines that units cannot stand and shoot (perhaps could be a banner, or an upgrade choice for some units). This would also reflect the beast ability to hide in terrain and spring an attack by surprise.

akgaroth
13-11-2008, 19:02
But how you would make it Fluffy? And another problem is that BoC would be TOO overpowered. HE have it, but the army is mostly composed by miniatures with T3 and with low AS; VC can have it through a spell; plaguebearers have it through a herald with W2. All BoC except ungors have T4 or more, i think that would be quite unbalanced. Maybe it would be useful and more balanced as a standard. Of course, BoC needs more power to be competitive... I think that what they need is manouvreability and/or something that protects them against psycology, as it's their Achilles' tendon in the current list.

DeathlessDraich
13-11-2008, 19:27
The thin end of the wedge - eventually most armies would be ASF - effectively back to Initiative. :p

Hopefully whatever changes GW comes up would be interesting and unique to BOC as opposed to replicas of other armies

Rioghan Murchadha
13-11-2008, 19:37
Fair enough. Then how about something like units that BoC charge always strike last, even if they have the ASF rule.
The point being that, because BoC rely on tricky ways to get of a charge, skill in this area should be rewarded and not curtailed. The ASF rule is more widespread these days.


It would pretty much have to be this way, given the current way ASF vs ASF works according to the FUQs. Means that Beasts with ASF would still go last compared to damn near everything else that currently has it.

GuyLeCheval
13-11-2008, 21:00
Wishlist:

Focusing on the combo skirmish+monsters.
With a slightly more focusing on skirmishing as we won't see an monster+beastmen army instead of a beastmen+monster army.
Ambush: Same, but as an upgrade for herds.
Use marks, but not as an requirements for some troops like mino's
It depends of marks which mutations you can get.

Lords:
Beastlord (With option to look like centigor)
Great bray shaman
Doombull

Heroes:
Wargor (Same as Beastlord)
Bray Shaman
Deathbull (Weaker Doombull)

Core:
Herd (With upgrade to ambush)
Gorgoyles
Chariots (You can have as many chariots as if you have herds in your army)
Scouting ungors
Centigors (Fast cavalry)

Special:
Minotaurs
Bestigors
Trolls
Chaos ogres
Some mutant gors?
Dragon Ogres (New ones please)

Rare:
Shaggoth
Gorgon
Cockatrice
Nurgle beast (Don't remember the name)
Chimeara

Just an repeat of all your comments, except rank BoC because I don't like that idea.

akgaroth
13-11-2008, 22:23
Humm, good resume, but I don't think that GW will limit the mutations depending on the marks... anyways, good resume.
I searched for another image of the Catoblepas, but I only found the same engraving of the 1600... anyways, it's described as a bull with skaly back and heavy head that has a poisonous breath and with gaze that could turn to stone a man who looks at it.
sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas
http://beastsoflegends.kazeo.com/Catoblepas,a106491.html

Daemonia
13-11-2008, 23:32
I really like your list there Guy. Seems solid and not at all broken. A big Skirmisher and Monster army list definitely sounds fun...even if it's a little like one option of the Wood Elf list, it's varied enough to be completely different.

Seth the Dark
14-11-2008, 00:59
It would be nice to have a mounted character but I don't think fluffwise that Centigors would ever lead a force since they tend to be bullied around by Gors and what not.

daa6
15-11-2008, 05:52
The one thing that doe's me in is the Bloodgreed rule, i think that this should be made into a test, like the option to pursue! this way they can at least carry on, into a new combat, they just hit then stop and can get themselves into more trouble.

Minotaurs should have the option of Heavy armour, and/or a scale skin save, (like nurgle) as it helps them survive.

ALSO get rid of the can only have the mark of the General!! as it is annoying, and still cant change if the general is undivided....

daa6
15-11-2008, 05:58
I do however like a few of the majic item in the current book, but they need something more to improove them...

a for the fear/terror problem, the same could be done for the WoC, for beasts, re-roll...

daa6
15-11-2008, 06:00
a Doombull / Centigor special charactor.

option for a Centigor hero.. again to tweek the list options

WhiteKnight
15-11-2008, 06:13
I would like to see a centigor hero because I would model it in an amazing pose i've been thinking about.

Kornath
15-11-2008, 16:56
Now I am gonna spout heresy here (woah!)

Behemoths.. Like those from heroes of might&magic 3.. Stronghold

"Behemoths are massive creatures found in the deepest and darkest woods to the north. Lumbering beasts with huge claws and a horrifying maw to swallow whatever unlucky creature finds them. Their size varies but they can be as big as dragons and just as powerful, with occasional Beast Lords riding them. For all that power though, they are not very smart and are quick to smash whatever is close to them" Ok a failure of a description but what the heck.

I don't know about the stats but... a moving ground walking monstrosity?! With beast lords able to ride them, the strength of a dragon. I personally believe this is a unique beast. I believe it should have a 3+ armor save and give its rider a 3+ save to his existing one. Though whatever is riding this thing needs to be the general, and must NOT be marked by a god, unless you mark the Behemoth too. 8M, but unable to be march blocked.

Perhaps something miner like?

(Insert proper name) Scythe serpents.

"Named for their scythe like arms which they use to dig through the earth and main their hapless victims. While not bigger than a normal man, they are numerous and swarm their enemies. They are known to feast on their victims in a eating frenzy, rendering them unable to focus on anything else than their food."

So... miner like function, will have to take an initiave test to catch broken regiments (which means an initiative of 3). They have a 4+ armor save. Can be upgraded with regeneration.

A big brother to those

Hell serpent (Name it please...)

"It resembles a huge serpent with a twisted face, with huge fangs and a beetles pincers. Their long serpentine forms are covered in metal like serpentine scales which glow with an evil glow. They are resistant to magic and can slam anything in their vicinity to pieces, but are mostly burrowing underground waiting for prey to pass it."

Big one... magic resistance 2+ and a 3+ armor save. Ignores all terrain, but if passes through a building like obstacle, roll a d6. If it hits a 4,5 or 6 that terrain is removed. It also receives a 5+ ward save. Killing blow, on human sized models 5+ (thanks to the pincers)

Stupid, over the top ideas. I tried though ;)

Kornath

cgrams
16-11-2008, 21:52
K, how about this: Benefit from other units frenzy. If they are in combat with a frenzied unit, they get frenzied as well.

Truculent
16-11-2008, 22:58
I'm not entirely opposed to some form of 'psychological mimicry' rule, to reflect the beasts' temperamental nature and their unwillingness to let weakling smoothskins upstage them in any way.

I suggested including a Chimera as a rare unit choice earlier, but on second reflection I think I'd rather see a Jabberwocky... Fits in better with the whole european folk tale 'thing-in-the-woods' imagery.

txamil
17-11-2008, 01:00
Does anyone really want a chimera/thing in woods/jabberwocky? Is anyone going to play it over a refined shaggoth?

Devil Tree
17-11-2008, 09:05
The problem with Shaggoths is that they are still way overpriced for what they do. The only improvements GW made, was to shave a few points off and give them +1 strength. Of course they also reduced their armor by one and I think they also reduced their leadership too.

It’s really disappointing. I was hopeful early on that they would show some improvement, considering that they never were that good to begin with.

I used to be a strong proponent of keeping the Shaggoth. Now, I really couldn’t care less, WoC can have them.

akgaroth
17-11-2008, 19:07
Does anyone really want a chimera/thing in woods/jabberwocky? Is anyone going to play it over a refined shaggoth?

I'm not against to see a shaggoth in the new BoC. I'm against to see their special and rare choices exatly like WoC's ones. We are only talking about possible new units. And as I said before, chimeras and cockatrices could make a re-appearence as GW already used them:
http://www.zachary.org/games/gw/mon4.jpg
http://www.zachary.org/games/gw/mon5.jpg

Archangel
19-11-2008, 10:34
I have always thought that CALIBAN would make an excellent Hero for a beastman army, check out the old 'Clash of the Titans' film. He also makes an appearance as a character in the three amazing books by Jan Siegel- Prospero's Children, The Dragon Charmer and Witch's Honour.' I can't recommend these books highly enough. They also contain an enormous world tree (in quite an evil light) and a monstrous spider, something else that would fit in well with the GW universe.