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rcm2216
08-11-2008, 07:35
Who would beat the Avatar down from the following options based on codex stats during the course of the game? Who is the best pound for pound fighter (point for point that is).

1.Avatar versus Hive Tyrant at 160 points
2.Avatar versus Carnifex at 180 points
3.Avatar versus Marneus Calgar
4.Avatar versus Abbadon
5.Avatar versus Deamon Prince
6.Avatar versus Archon at 200 points
7.Avatar versus Ghazghkull
8.Avatar versus Greater Deamon
9.Avatar versus Night Bringer
10.Avatar versus a full squad of death company troops

CthulhuDalek
08-11-2008, 07:43
Do you mean in a "Real life" battle or within the mechanics of the game?

Real Life:
1. Avatar (warp entity vs. living thing)
2. Avatar (warp entity vs. living thing)
3. Marneus(he already did it)
4. Abbadon(he can probably beat marneus)
5. Avatar.(both warp entities, one is a wargod.)
6. Avatar(puny warriors...)
7. Tossup. Ghazkghkull is pretty big and bad, but I think most likely avatar.
8. Tie between KoS and BT.
9. Probably the nightbringer.
10. Avatar--puny mortals!
7.

crimson_fists
08-11-2008, 07:47
1.Avatar versus Hive Tyrant= Depends what kind
2.Avatar versus Carnifex= Avatar
3.Avatar versus Marneus Calgar= Avatar
4.Avatar versus Abbadon= Abbaadon
5.Avatar versus Deamon Prince= Daemon Prince
6.Avatar versus Archon= Avatar
7.Avatar versus Ghazghkull= Ghazghkull uruk thraka
8.Avatar versus Greater Deamon= Avatar
9.Avatar versus Night Bringer=Avatar
10.Avatar versus a full squad of death company troops= Avatar
That all the ones you want to know?

Sidstyler
08-11-2008, 07:52
I personally think this thread exists for the sole reason of pointing out how stupid the Avatar vs. Calgar thing in the codex is. :p

1. Avatar.
2. Avatar.
3. CALGAR OF COURSE LOLZ ULTRAMARINEZ!
4. Abbadon, since Abbadon could beat Calgar's ass and Calgar killed one with his bare hands lolz.
5. Avatar.
6. Avatar.
7. Ghazgkull, don't see why not...he can make junk work with his brain I'm sure he could beat a god if he thought he was bad enough.
8. Not so sure.
9. Nightbringer.
10. If Calgar could kill an Avatar BY HIMSELF with his BARE HANDS then surely a whole squad of Marines could...wait, nevermind, they're Death Company, not ULTRAMARINEZ.

squeekenator
08-11-2008, 08:02
Hooray, it's mathhammer time!

I'll assume you're talking about fully kitted out enemies, otherwise this gets too hard to figure out.

1. They strike simultaneously. The Avatar knocks off 1.111... wounds per turn, the Hive Tyrant takes off 1.25 thanks to Implant Attack. Technically the Tyrant wins, but really it comes down to luck.
2. The Avatar takes down 0.888... of the Carnifex's 5 wounds per turn, and the Carnifex has a decent chance to regenerate at least one during the combat. The Carnifex causes 1.875 per turn. The Avatar has no chance.
3. The Avatar gets 1.111... wounds per turn again, Marneus causes around 1.07. The Avatar wins, but only just.
4. The Avatar deals 0.888... wounds each turn, Abaddon a considerably higher 1.6-ish. Abaddon wins easily. Of course, his Drach'nyen throws averages out the window, so take this with a grain of salt.
5. Haven't read the Daemon codex, but the CSM version, even with the Mark of Nurgle to bump up his Toughness to Avatar levels, is still simply an Avatar with less WS. The Avatar wins.
6. It takes the Avatar 3 turns to drop the shadow field and cause instant death, in those turns the Archon, assuming a standard agoniser configuration, causes 1.875 wounds.
7. Not sure, haven't read the Ork codex in a while.
8. Again assuming the CSM version, the Avatar deals a tiny 0.1666... more wounds per turn than the Greater Daemon. Fairly even.
9. Well, the Nightbringer kicks everyone's backside in melee combat, no contest there. In fact, even if the Big N just sat there, the Avatar would take 23 turns to kill him, and if he actually attacked the Avatar would be dead in 2.
10. Death Company have no maximum squad size, so you'll have to be a bit more specific there. However, against a squad of 10, the Avatar kills one, takes 2.63888... wounds, kills another and then dies.

CthulhuDalek
08-11-2008, 08:56
Hooray, it's mathhammer time!

I'll assume you're talking about fully kitted out enemies, otherwise this gets too hard to figure out.

1. They strike simultaneously. The Avatar knocks off 1.111... wounds per turn, the Hive Tyrant takes off 1.25 thanks to Implant Attack. Technically the Tyrant wins, but really it comes down to luck.
2. The Avatar takes down 0.888... of the Carnifex's 5 wounds per turn, and the Carnifex has a decent chance to regenerate at least one during the combat. The Carnifex causes 1.875 per turn. The Avatar has no chance.
3. The Avatar gets 1.111... wounds per turn again, Marneus causes around 1.07. The Avatar wins, but only just.
4. The Avatar deals 0.888... wounds each turn, Abaddon a considerably higher 1.6-ish. Abaddon wins easily. Of course, his Drach'nyen throws averages out the window, so take this with a grain of salt.
5. Haven't read the Daemon codex, but the CSM version, even with the Mark of Nurgle to bump up his Toughness to Avatar levels, is still simply an Avatar with less WS. The Avatar wins.
6. It takes the Avatar 3 turns to drop the shadow field and cause instant death, in those turns the Archon, assuming a standard agoniser configuration, causes 1.875 wounds.
7. Not sure, haven't read the Ork codex in a while.
8. Again assuming the CSM version, the Avatar deals a tiny 0.1666... more wounds per turn than the Greater Daemon. Fairly even.
9. Well, the Nightbringer kicks everyone's backside in melee combat, no contest there. In fact, even if the Big N just sat there, the Avatar would take 23 turns to kill him, and if he actually attacked the Avatar would be dead in 2.
10. Death Company have no maximum squad size, so you'll have to be a bit more specific there. However, against a squad of 10, the Avatar kills one, takes 2.63888... wounds, kills another and then dies.

I think that the Avatar as represented in the game compared to the other creatures is toned down.

In reality they are Molten Gods of War. Only "supernatural" creatures like daemons, C'tan and Heavilllllly gifted champions should be able to fell them.

I'd say Calgar, just because of precedence, Abbaddon since he can kill basically anything and is super-duper blessed, and the Nightbringer is kind of a puzzle to me, still.

Since C'tan are weakened by the Warp, shouldn't an Avatar "pwn" them?

squeekenator
08-11-2008, 09:19
I'm going by the rules, not the fluff. Even so, the Avatar isn't that much stronger in fluff than in the actual game. It can't even beat one lousy Chapter Master. :p And no, the C'Tan wouldn't get 'pwned' by an Avatar. Daemons aren't going to do anything to a C'Tan when you consider that it takes a Blackstone Fortress to dent them. The Nightbringer might not like the Avatar's presence, but in melee combat, even in its diminished state, the only thing I can think of that might put up a fight is a Daemon Primarch. The C'Tan were nerfed heavily to be usable in a game.

rcm2216
08-11-2008, 16:23
okay i updated it

Sekhmet
08-11-2008, 19:06
9. Probably the nightbringer.




9.Avatar versus Night Bringer=Avatar


In terms of fluff, the Nightbringer wins. The Nightbringer nearly beat the REAL Khaine, and in the process, heavily messed up the entire Eldar race and basically scarred Khaine... while Khaine only managed to break his necrodermis and inflict no real damage to the Nightbringer. If it's just an Avatar of an already heavily weakened god, it has no chance at all of beating any C'tan.

In game terms, I ran a simulation on the Nightbringer vs Avatar, repeating 500,000 times, and the Nightbringer won 99.8% of those times.

IrishDelinquent
08-11-2008, 19:31
Who would beat the Avatar down from the following options based on codex stats during the course of the game? Who is the best pound for pound fighter (point for point that is).

1.Avatar versus Hive Tyrant at 160 points
2.Avatar versus Carnifex at 180 points
3.Avatar versus Marneus Calgar
4.Avatar versus Abbadon
5.Avatar versus Deamon Prince
6.Avatar versus Archon at 200 points
7.Avatar versus Ghazghkull
8.Avatar versus Greater Deamon
9.Avatar versus Night Bringer
10.Avatar versus a full squad of death company troops

1. Depends on the upgrades the Tyrant takes. If it's tooled for CC, then it can do some major damage. The smart idea would be a winged dakka tyrant - Avatar couldn't catch it, and would be worn down by attrition.

2. Such a low cap on the 'fex's points makes me sad. It will all depend on who gets the charge, assuming that the fex is kitted out for CC. Tusks, scything talons, bioplasma, and a mace tail means 8 attacks at strength 10...if the 'fex survives the Avatar's first attacks, the thing is doomed.

3. I'm not 100% sure of Calgar's new stats, but seeing as he is an ultrasmurf he would probably win. The avatar would probably beat him down to within an inch of his life, though.

4. Why even bother asking this one? Abbadon is seen as arguably the nastiest character in the game. Drach'nyen is just all kinds of gross.

5. Daemon Prince with no points limit? And are we talking CSM HQ Daemon Prince, or CD HS Daemon Prince? Either way, though, it'd probably go to the Avatar.

6. Easily the Archon. While the Avatar can squash him like a fly, he's also gonna need to get past the Archon's shadowfield. Before that happens, the Archon will get hopped up on drugs and shred the molten demi-god to ribbons.

7. Ghazghull! WAAAGH!! But seriously I'd say the baddest Warboss would take that fight.

8. Seeing as you said greater Daemon, which means CSM generic daemons and not CD specific daemons, I'd pick the Avatar.

9. Nightbringer, in a heartbeat. That thing is just stupid good in combat, and has a good invul save...good luck.

10. Avatar...if it can make it to combat. Otherwise the Death Company could just shoot it down.


I would like to see a similar thread, where you force opponents to pick their champions and pit them against each other in a CC fight-to-the-death. Set a points limit, and set them loose!

Flying Toaster
09-11-2008, 20:35
Hooray, it's mathhammer time!

3. The Avatar gets 1.111... wounds per turn again, Marneus causes around 1.07. The Avatar wins, but only just.


How the hell does that work?!

Avatar hits on 3's wounds on 2's with 4 attacks and hits first. Thats alot more than 1.111... wounds per turn me thinks.

weissengel86
09-11-2008, 20:55
How the hell does that work?!

Avatar hits on 3's wounds on 2's with 4 attacks and hits first. Thats alot more than 1.111... wounds per turn me thinks. calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save which means out of 4 attacks he deals on average 2 wounds. He doesnt deal two wounds on average either because unless he hits and wounds on a 1+ the average will go down to exactly what he said slightly more then 1 wound a turn. Keep in mind that he is talking about the average no what could actually happen. If you ran this combat a thousand times you would get an average close to what he said and the more simulations the closer you would get.