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Shadowsinner
08-11-2008, 13:37
You know I've noticed that lately alot of people have been bashing on new models coming out saying that they are terrible models, but it doesnt seem to reflect the lack of quality in the model but rather its loyalty to the theme of its army. For example many people say that the new dreadlord model is terrible and should be scraped. I on the other hand think that it is in fact a nice model but rather more chaos looking than dark elf. Others complain about the new stegadon and say its a horrible model because of its anatomy and because "it doesnt look like a real dinosaur". Ive even heard people say Sigvald is a stupid model because he doesnt fit the army theme when in fact I am expecting to see him in alot of golden demon competitions.

So I guess the question is why do people react so harshly toward the work of other artists. I can see how certain criticisms can be made due to dissapointment so certain expectaions of style, but is it really necessary to say that the model itself is hideous and undeserving of love? Are these people really exagggerating or do they really have such a black and white oppinion?

Joewrightgm
08-11-2008, 14:13
I think it simply comes down to people like what they like, and I think the safety of being anonymous on the internet gives people free reign to be as severe and 'angry' about the new models coming out.

Some arguements are backed up by legitimate reasons, and others are "DUDEZ WTF LOLZOORZ IZ SELLIN MAH LIZZYZ!" and just over-reacting.

Personally, GW can do no earthly wrong when it comes to new releases; the 40k Ork stuff coming out, as well as the new chaos models and now the really sweet looking stegadon, WHERE IS THE MADNESS GOING TO END!?

But it comes down, as I said, to personal taste and how people feel safe bashing stuff on the internet; guarenteed those same people would be hesitant or too afraid to bash the mini like that to the face of the sculpter.

Oh, and if anyone responds saying "nuh-uh!" you'll prove my point that you are a coward trying to be a big boy.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-11-2008, 14:53
Opinions are always going to be divided and its often very difficult to understand why somebody else takes the stance they do on a work of art or a piece of literature. There's never going to be a right or wrong as far as opinions are concerned but you can analyse how close the artist or writer has come to meeting their objectives and compare and contrast the content of the work to gauge its quality. Even a poorly crafted sculpt may have some elements that people find appealing, whilst others might be appalled at the overall consistency and basic skill of the artist.


As an example, personally I don't like Sigvald sculpt, its not that the model is poorly crafted but I don't like that it doesn't mesh with the other sculpted elements in a chaos army. If the sculptor wanted to create a unique miniature that stood out from the army then they might feel they've achieved their objectives, however that doesn't necessarily make me any more enamoured with the end product.

I could tell you in detail why I don't like the Sigvald model but that's not relevant to the current topic so I'll leave it there.

txamil
08-11-2008, 16:51
So you are denying me an ascetic and definitition of beauty, and the abilty to speak on that definition? This is the most insidious kind of control.

To re-focus the thread;
Trish Morrison is currently the worst sculptor at GW. The dogs look like cousin It except lamer, and the new stegy is this fat thing with baggy old man skin and herpes cold sores on its back.

zak
08-11-2008, 17:00
Every model will have it's critics. No matter how good one person says it is, someone else will say it's awful. The old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder is just as effective for GW models as it is for ladies and gents.

On a side note. I like Sigvald and the new Steggy.

parus_ater
08-11-2008, 17:01
Because people on here like a moan?

It's like Art, some folks like to say that something doesn't reach their high expectations because it makes them sound better.

Harry
08-11-2008, 18:07
So you are denying me an ascetic and definitition of beauty, and the abilty to speak on that definition? This is the most insidious kind of control.

To re-focus the thread;
Trish Morrison is currently the worst sculptor at GW.
Yes ... I am denying you the ability to speak on that definition if you can not do it with any better manners than this.

Futhermore your judgement is no better than your manners.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9263/azhagfo3.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8896/dragongc6.jpg

The problem is that the anonimity of the internet allows people who were brought up without good manners to think it is OK to say whatever they like.

parus_ater
08-11-2008, 18:12
Yes ... I am denying you the ability to speak on that definition if you can not do it with any better manners than this.

Futhermore more your judgement is illinformed as it is rude.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9263/azhagfo3.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8896/dragongc6.jpg

The problem is that the anonimity of the internet allows people who were brought up without manners to think it is OK to say whatever they like. It is not.

Well bloody said, Old Bean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I go farther though. The only justification of criticing someones efforts is the ability and the conviction to prove that they can produce better. In essence, show us yours, txamil

Belakor
08-11-2008, 18:17
Nah you can critisize but do it constructively at least.

Otherwise the word "Whineseer" will just strengthen.

Harry
08-11-2008, 18:27
People do not have to 'do better' in order to have an opinion (or even try to do better) they just need to remember their manners when commenting and choose their words more carefully.

It is possible to say you do not like something (and why) without saying 'it is pants' and just slagging off the sculpt and the sculptor.

Duke Georgal
08-11-2008, 18:29
Criticism happens on several levels and areas of concern.

Some models are just bad, Dragon Ogres come to mind. I would say that the vast majority would agree with this.

Most of the time it is a flat out oppinion. I do no like the new Skeletons, Dire Wolves, or Corpse Cart. I know most players are happy with them, and my oppinion is in the minority.

Most of the critcism I post is about how a model fits together, or the pose. It really bothers me when a model requires 1/8" of green stuff to fill a gap, armor lines do not align, or heads interfere with weapons as designed.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-11-2008, 18:34
I go farther though. The only justification of criticing someones efforts is the ability and the conviction to prove that they can produce better. In essence, show us yours, txamil

Not at all. Its entirely appropriate to critique any medium even if you can't produce better results yourself, being able to analyse what is there is a different skill set than being able to produce quality material and expressing an opinion only requires that you have one.

I can't believe that you've never voiced a negative opinion about a creative work that you couldn't even reproduce let alone improve upon, any improvements beyond basic technique and therefore the "justification to criticise" would be entirely subjective anyway.

Duke Georgal
08-11-2008, 18:36
The only justification of criticing someones efforts is the ability and the conviction to prove that they can produce better. In essence, show us yours, txamil

I'm sorry, but this is wrong.

I could never design an automobile even on the level of a Yugo, but I know a Lincoln MKZ is a better car. I have owned both, and I can tell them apart.

I doubt Gene Shallat could make a movie even half as good as Heaven's Gate, but he makes his living as a movie critic.

Criticism is an talent. Being mean is not.

Phoenix Blaze
08-11-2008, 19:55
I think sometimes, when people go "that model's crap!" can sometimes be because, well they can't say otherwise. Some people don't realise that the Dreadlord is a boring model due to his pose, armour design and weapon (but mainly the pose- my opinion).

Whereas others can criticise a model based on aesthetic reasons and go into detail with them.

While we as the consumers should be able to say what we like and don't like about certain models, GW has released a few mistakes in the past. Remember the metal possessed models? They had their charm, but they were a bit horrid. Odd poses, bad body design with mutations and the like.

And finally, the people who complain about Sigvald will most likely be Chaos players, those who like the look of the Chaos warrior/Lord, so it's only natural that some will complain about a Hero character who doesn't look Chaos at all. I wasn't too keen on the model, but after having a closer look and realising hat his upper arms and hip area aren't armoured, it suddenly became this fantastic chaos model, who has a pretty face and who has golden armour, rather than the steel and iron look.

I'm sure a lot of people have looked at a model and said it was awful before *really* taking a look at all the details.

==Me==
08-11-2008, 20:10
Yes ... I am denying you the ability to speak on that definition if you can not do it with any better manners than this.

Futhermore your judgement is no better than your manners.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9263/azhagfo3.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8896/dragongc6.jpg

The problem is that the anonimity of the internet allows people who were brought up without good manners to think it is OK to say whatever they like.

The whole idea of art is that it is subjective. Some people like it, others don't. txamil is not a fan of a particular sculptor's work, so he makes his opinion known. You may like it, but that doesn't everyone else has to. I like the old wyvern, but that new one looks nice too. And the veiled insult is not necessary or acceptable, practice what you preach and show proper manners.

I don't like the new Stegadon, it looks like a stubby elephant with a triceratops mask. The howdah is cool, but the actual dino looks stupid. The old Steggy is a lot better, even if it is a bit dated. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt until I can see a different paintjob, but I'm not impressed so far.

So, to use the classic phrase, "Who died and made you king of the models?"

Arhalien
08-11-2008, 20:25
The whole idea of art is that it is subjective. Some people like it, others don't. txamil is not a fan of a particular sculptor's work, so he makes his opinion known. You may like it, but that doesn't everyone else has to. I like the old wyvern, but that new one looks nice too. And the veiled insult is not necessary or acceptable, practice what you preach and show proper manners.


Precisely, art is subjective, and it's an opinion. An opinion is NOT a justifiable excuse to insult a sculptor to the extent that Txamil did; as has been shown by the wyvern and dragon, Trish is NOT a terrible sculptor by any stretch of the imagination.

And Harry was in no way saying he was king of the models, or that his opinion was all that was right; merely that an opinion should be formed about the model, and no attack should be made on the sculptor's ability with insulting generalisations.

To summarise myself: attack the sculpt, not the sculptor.

Shadowsinner
08-11-2008, 20:28
Well its not so much that Im arguing against people's opinion. In fact I encourage "certain" criticisms because thats what makes progress. There are plenty of models that I do not like, and I do not expect everyone to like all the models or the like the ones I like in particular. I guess what concernes me is that while we have the right to voice our dislikes, some people choose to go as far as out right trashing the model and its creator. I don't even know Trish but I already feel bad for her because in the past few months shes been the target for trash talking in alot of threads. It makes me wonder if people really only do this becasue it is the inter web or it really carries over into the gameplay and character of that person in real life.

Harry
08-11-2008, 20:41
@===Me===

Mmmmm.

You appear to misundertsand me.

I don't disagree with anything you have said about the models. I also prefer the old Stegadon.

As for Txamil he appears not to like the chaos hounds or is it the dire wolves. Fair enough.
This does not seem to jusification for slagging someone off as the 'worst sculptor at GW'
I am confident that txamil couldn't identify the work of all of the current sculptors in the studio (if ideed he could even name them all). My objection was to the attack on a sculptor. Not specifically because it was Trish. (although Trish is lovely and I would always leap to her defence) I would leap to the defence of any sculptor (and indeed I have repeatedly in the past) who was needlessly and carelessly slagged off by someone on this forum.

No one made me 'king of the models' I didn't speak about models at all. I don't have a problem with folks saying they don't like a specific model.

EDIT: Arhalien understand me well.
(But then he has seen me leap to the defence of Gary Morley many times when he was the target for so much unnessesary venom).

Shadowsinner
08-11-2008, 20:46
I guess one of the questions I really mean to ask is are people who make the uncivilized crude remarks only putting on a show online or does it actually reflect their personality. And of course Im sure Trish is a lovely woman. I just used her as my example since I have indeed noticed people throwing her neam around alot on the thread in not so nice ways

==Me==
08-11-2008, 20:50
Ack, that's what I get for responding to a couple posters at once while only quoting one. XD

I say let people criticize at will. You'll get silly stuff like "worst sculptor at GW", but this is the internet and such is the nature of the beast. You really can't prove that Trish is the worst sculptor or not, as it is subjective by its nature as art. I didn't see anything insulting about it, it's merely an opinion on the quality of her work. If he had said "Trish is the worst sculptor at GW and is a filthy tramp" then we would have an issue.

And I wouldn't worry about anyone's feelings getting hurt, I seriously doubt anyone at GW takes what is said on Whineseer or any internet forum personally.

Harry
08-11-2008, 20:56
Well its not so much that Im arguing against people's opinion. In fact I encourage "certain" criticisms because thats what makes progress. There are plenty of models that I do not like, and I do not expect everyone to like all the models or the like the ones I like in particular. I guess what concernes me is that while we have the right to voice our dislikes, some people choose to go as far as out right trashing the model and its creator. I don't even know Trish but I already feel bad for her because in the past few months shes been the target for trash talking in alot of threads. It makes me wonder if people really only do this becasue it is the inter web or it really carries over into the gameplay and character of that person in real life.


no I understand what you are saying Harry. I guess one of the questions I really mean to ask is are people who make the uncivilized crude remarks only putting on a show online or does it actually reflect their personality. And of course Im sure Trish is a lovely woman. I just used her as my example since I have indeed noticed people throwing her neam around alot on the thread in not so nice ways
Trish IS a lovely lady.

I am confident if any of the people you have seen being rude about Trish or her work were to meet her and have the chance to talk to her about her work they would choose their words more carefully and not be so rude. I think people behave on the internet far worse than they would in real life because they think it does not matter.

Harry
08-11-2008, 21:18
And...


And I wouldn't worry about anyone's feelings getting hurt, I seriously doubt anyone at GW takes what is said on Whineseer or any internet forum personally.

I know for a fact that you are wrong and some of them do read this stuff and it does get to some of them.

But then they are human so that should not be a big suprise.

==Me==
08-11-2008, 21:20
And...



I know for a fact that you are wrong and they do read this stuff and it does get to some of them.

Then I would reccommend they grow some thicker skin :p It's the internet, people are dicks, life goes on.

OLIVERASO
08-11-2008, 21:27
I don't even know Trish but I already feel bad for her because in the past few months shes been the target for trash talking in alot of threads.

Yeah, and before ; that was about steve saleh... and before about gary morley.... and maybe some other I not remember :D

Trish may be an great lady ; but I not like an large part of the sculpt she did.
Same thing about aly BTW.

Diaz/godwin/Perbet ( except for the orc at GD07 ) and Footit are IMHO the best sculptor at the studio.

And I not like too the stegadon. He look like undead for me.

squalie
08-11-2008, 21:36
Then I would reccommend they grow some thicker skin :p It's the internet, people are dicks, life goes on.

Case in point.

Also, I think that the new Stegadon is easily one of the coolest models since Belakor. My 2 pennies.

MrBigMr
08-11-2008, 22:19
I'm reminded of a story I once heard (as in those stories that teach you stuff).

There once was a big city man who was driving along the country side. Suddenly his tire blows. He has a spare, but no jack. He spots a farm and ponders "They'll lend me one." So he sets off towards the farm. Along the way he thinks "Then again, maybe they won't lend me a jack. Nah, sure they will." Once he gets close doubt rises its ugly head again. "But how do I know about these hillbillies? I be they won't lend me a jack just to screw with me."

Finally he comes to the main building, picks up a rock and tosses it through a window, shouting "Keep your damn jack!"


All in all, we all have expectations and usually when we let them run wild, we might end up in a situation where our dreams are utterly crushed with a big feeling of "WTF is this crap!" This is only due to people expecting something else, and this leads to them venting in one way or another. Only those that are happy rarely voice out their oppinion because why should they? They never tell about nice things in the news either. When everything is quiet, everyone is happy.

I know I've suffered some stuff like that, especially with the whole daemon incident when GW just trashed years of perfectly good fluff and Slaaneshi models for no good reason.


Or who knows, maybe we're all just a bunch of a-holes filling the airways with garbage about things that have no meaning what so ever. It's no different from any other media, so there's no real reason to quit either. If you don't want bad news, put a paper bag over your head and sit in a dark corner. No one whining about anything there, just the sound of blood circulating in your ears. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll find God in there, or something.

Edonil
09-11-2008, 03:11
I'm reminded of a story I once heard (as in those stories that teach you stuff).

There once was a big city man who was driving along the country side. Suddenly his tire blows. He has a spare, but no jack. He spots a farm and ponders "They'll lend me one." So he sets off towards the farm. Along the way he thinks "Then again, maybe they won't lend me a jack. Nah, sure they will." Once he gets close doubt rises its ugly head again. "But how do I know about these hillbillies? I be they won't lend me a jack just to screw with me."

Finally he comes to the main building, picks up a rock and tosses it through a window, shouting "Keep your damn jack!"


I haven't heard that story in quite some time. I have to agree with the majority of posters here- we are allowed to express our opinion, but there should be a sense of etiquette to it. Just ripping strips off someone because you didn't like something they were involved in, isn't right. There are ways to do it, and ways to not.

Daemonia
09-11-2008, 06:11
Most people will state what they don't like, list the reasons they don't like it, put into perspective of things and accept/counter the points made by others with respect to the discussion so all reading it can glean an understanding or in some way benefit.

However, this is the internet where slogging off hard-working and generally respected people (an artist in this case) has become the norm.

I personally don't like the directions GW took with the Daemons and Chaos in general (my most loved and popular army in lore and tabletop for many years, with only the odd distraction for something fun) because it goes against very well-established fluff and character. On the plus side, however, I perfectly adore the new Chaos models and they certainly are some of the best ever done. The work keeps getting better and better. I'll live with the violation of my lore (with much bitter whining, but that's okay, because I whined bitterly about things before it and will about things yet undone) if it means I get amazing new models and a fun list to play with. I got most of that, so I'll take it on the chin.

Mock, if you must, the work of artists...but don't mock the artists themselves. Sometimes people do second-rate jobs (according to individual tastes), but if they kept doing it and everyone hated them...they wouldn't have a job in the first place. They're just people doing what they think is best. Sometimes that isn't impressive (mandatory Terradon fist-shake), sometimes it's really awesome (Belakor, Khorne Lord on Juggy), sometimes it's debateable (new Steggy).

Harry
09-11-2008, 07:31
Then I would reccommend they grow some thicker skin :p It's the internet, people are dicks, life goes on.
I don't know if you work or are still a youngster but lets imagine you do and that you love your job and put your heart and soul into it and then I, only understanding a fraction of what it is you do, tear into you and your work and see how you get on with that.


I haven't heard that story in quite some time. I have to agree with the majority of posters here- we are allowed to express our opinion, but there should be a sense of etiquette to it. Just ripping strips off someone because you didn't like something they were involved in, isn't right. There are ways to do it, and ways to not.
Thats all I am saying.


Mock, if you must, the work of artists...but don't mock the artists themselves. Sometimes people do second-rate jobs (according to individual tastes), but if they kept doing it and everyone hated them...they wouldn't have a job in the first place. They're just people doing what they think is best.
Sometimes people do 'second-rate jobs' for all kinds of reasons.

Also...

The sculptors are under extraordinary design restraints and constrictions not to mention deadlines. Folks here do not understand the restrictions placed on the artistic freedom of the sculptors by the process itself. They are given very tight tolerances to work to in terms of scale, they are sometimes told the exact pose they have must adopt, or whether the figures should have seperate legs or one piece bodies. These things are sometimes not the sculptors decision. They are part of the brief. Then there is the plastics process and the constraints placed on them by the complexities of mould making. They are allowed no undercut at all on the whole sprue. (It must be hard to try to cover a model with detail and keep it looking realistic without any undercut). Then there is the tooling. Their is a limit to how much detail they can put on a model because of the costs involved in cutting the mould. Thats just off the top off my head.

The point is sculptors are not free to do whatever they like.
If you look at the examples I gave of Trish's Wyvern and Dragon earlier. This is what she can do with no restrictions placed on her creative freedom but .... they still can't work out how to get either of these models into productiion.

This must be equally true of all the sculptors.
They are a very talented bunch of people doing their best to produce incredible work under extraordinary design constraints.

We can talk about the models (like them or loathe them) without tearing into the sculptors.

Shamfrit
09-11-2008, 07:54
Harry stop posting the Azhag model, you keep reminding me how deliciously good Trish is - and how painful it was to give up Greenskins :D

For the people who've mentioned 'growing thicker skin,' how about you subject yourselves to name calling, petty bullying and slander - and show us all how strong and vibrant you remain in the duress thereof. It reminds me of an old saying that personally, I think is a load of Stegadon dung, 'sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.'

How about 'sticks and stones may break my bones (but will heal) but names will always scar me (mentally.)'

There's just no need for personal attacks, and to re-iterate:



We can talk about the models (like them or loathe them) without tearing into the sculptors.

Braad
09-11-2008, 08:30
@ Shamfrit
Shame on you! Never give up greenskins, you heretic! Gork (or possibly Mork) will find you!

But indeed I agree with the rest of your comments, and Harry's opinion too, for that matter. Internet might be a place where it is easy to hide behind the anonimity (even though there are people who could track your exact identity and location...) and be rude. It is up to the person though to ask himself "am I gonna be rude, or am I better than that?". I personally think its weak to consort to such measures of bashing people without actual reason. Something being the norm, like Daemonia says, is not a good reason for joining in the frenzy. Instead choosing a better path than the big mass, is what really defines people and makes them 'good people' if you ask me.

In principle, all models are well-made, even those sculpted by the most inexperienced sculptor, as long as he/she made the effort to do his best. It's up to no-one to judge other than that. They can say they like or dislike it though, propose ways to better the work and in the case of GW sculpts, buy them or not, but not say the person is the worst sculptor ever and his work should be burned or something.

Btw, Azhag and (especially) his wyvern by Trish is the number one by far on my 'wants this to be released'-wishlist.

People who disagree, please show us your work, and let us show you how it feels.
Some people maybe are thick skinned (extra AS?) but others are not, and might be hurt by stuff we say.

Harry
09-11-2008, 09:07
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

Daemonia
09-11-2008, 09:44
Well when I said that sometimes artists do 'second-rate work', I do mean it is purely in the minds and opinions of people. Good instance are the new Terradons. I personally hate them. Does that mean their artist is a useless hack? Of course not. I would never call him that, merely that I don't like that particular piece of work.

Random insults are never justified against sculptors and artists, internet or not. It's not a matter of being able to ignore them (as I'm certain all sensible people do), it doesn't mean it's a free license to be annoying.

Harry
09-11-2008, 09:49
oops! That last chunk wasn't aimed at you ... it was just me waffling on.

MonkeyLord
09-11-2008, 10:26
Well, I know that I certainly have, on occasion, been one of the insensitive teeth gnashers that dropped a big steaming pile of verbal loaf on the sculptors and their work. The internet and the anonymity it affords us makes it far too easy to forget our better angels, saying things "out loud" that we would normally never, ever say to a person's face. But just because the internet is rife with it does not make it "right".

Being a good person means choosing to do the right thing, even when no one is there to see you do it. We'd all be a lot better off if we could just keep our id caged, and let the super ego do the typing.

I'm in a creative line of work myself, and I can tell you right now that even when I know 90% of what I see on a forum criticizing my work is just verbal diarrhea, deep down, that doesn't make their words any less hurtful (which means I should know better, right?). Telling the sculptors to grow a thicker skin is like a vandal telling someone they should have installed security bars on their windows. That doesn't make the vandal any less responsible for their behavior, or what they did any less repugnant.

Anyway, thanks for the reminder, Harry. Sometimes I forget myself. I'll do my best to make sure I'm a little more aware of who I'm taking a poo on, and how I do it.

Zark the Damned
09-11-2008, 11:10
Well said, Harry. A bad model doesn't necessarily mean a bad sculptor. I'm sure every sculptor has their off days, and this is exacerbated by the aforementioned deadlines, schedules, art direction, compromises to cast-ability, and so on.

Just because they produce a model you don't like, is no reason to spew insults at them in a childish manner.

As an aside, I personally like the new Stegadon, the increased bulk makes it look more like a vicious monster that the Skinks have to fight to control. The old Stegadon looks too much like a Triceratops, and having studied dinosaurs as a child this just brings up 'peaceful herbivore' imagery.

MrBigMr
09-11-2008, 12:47
Besides, it's not always the artist who gets to pick what's to be realeased. I think there's a whole panel of developers and such who go over the things presented to them and pick the ones they like. So in the end we're playing with models someone else picked from a lineup.

I can't think of another reason why GW models continue to exhaustingly British year after year. Some of the designs, especially with the daemons are from old 2000A.D. comics, and not in a good way. I really like Diaz sculpts, but I quess he made some of the others look too plain or something, because what do you know, the next batch of 'nettes was the same old with a new configuration. And what's with the whole horny Chaos theme anyway? I thought the whole Conan the Barbarian look went away along with the 80's. Ok, it has nostalgic value, but we don't drive around in little box cars that break down on us every 100 miles, no matter how good all those teen years in it felt.

Dude, you're ranting again. Take the pills and shut up.

Ok, I'm cool now.

theunwantedbeing
09-11-2008, 13:12
The new stegadon is a better sculpt than the old one.
Whether or not you like it is upto personal preference but it does not reflect the talent of the artist who created it.

As for the insults and whatnot, this is the internet. Anonimity central where you can say what you want to who you want, when you want. With no consequences.
Heck I've had death threats from people over the internet before, I see that person in real life (not overly clever to threaten somebody you will actually see in life is it?) and suddenly they are now terrified to talk to me (punk kids smaller even than me, the threat was an idle one).

People are just spineless cowards and if they can feel superior by insulting people over the internet then that is what they will do to not feel so worthless(which they are).

A new model just lines the artist up for them to take pot shots at, regardless of how good the model is, people will always fall back on "I like the old one better as I am used to it, therefore the new one must be rubbish".

txamil
09-11-2008, 21:52
Yes ... I am denying you the ability to speak on that definition if you can not do it with any better manners than this.

Futhermore your judgement is no better than your manners.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9263/azhagfo3.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8896/dragongc6.jpg

The problem is that the anonimity of the internet allows people who were brought up without good manners to think it is OK to say whatever they like.

My objection was to the attack on a sculptor. Not specifically because it was Trish. (although Trish is lovely and I would always leap to her defence) I would leap to the defence of any sculptor (and indeed I have repeatedly in the past) who was needlessly and carelessly slagged off by someone on this forum.

they would choose their words more carefully and not be so rude. I think people behave on the internet far worse than they would in real life because they think it does not matter.

Unbelievable. You owe me an apology. I have said nothing personal about Trish at all. I have only, and have only, ever referred to her professional abilities as a sculptor. Slagging?!?! Rude?!?! Get real Harry.

Your responses have been personal, not mine. I never attacked the sculptor, I attacked her work. You owe me the apology, not the other way around. And if you were anyone but Harry, I believe the moderators would suggest the same.

And what did I say exactly? I said she is the worst the sculptor currently at GW. That's all I said. Nothing personal there. And then I outlined some of the poor models she has done recently, and why I thought they were poor.

Grow up Harry/Trish, someone needs to be the worst. I don't think it was any more inappropriate than saying Ward is the worst Army Book writer, something I have seen more than once (like every O&G thread on here). Something I have never seen you comment on, strangely.

I am trying hard not to see sexism in the parallel, I really am. But I'm having difficulty not drawing the conclusion that your visceral response has a lot to do with sexism. Where's your passionate defense of Matt Ward?

And a quote of Roosevelt to describe modeling toy soldiers at GW? Are you ******** serious? You need some perspective.

Harry
09-11-2008, 22:14
:D
You are right.
I do owe you an apology. (and I have known that since soon after my first post but I had already been quoted and there was not much I could do about). I have been meaning to PM you with such an apology. But I am more than happy to do it here.

I wasn't really pissed at you. Your comment was not that big a deal. It was, sadly, 'the last straw'. I had been skipping around the forum and had read comment after comment having a pop at sculpts and sculptors. So when I saw a thread in general that was vaguely on this topic I just jumped on in with both feet to get it off my chest. I was in a bad mood already and was looking to pick a fight. You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I do apologise to you. It was wrong of me to take it out on you. Most of what I was saying has nothing to do with you and was just general comments at the forum in general. (even then I am aware I am only talking to a small minority of the forum).

I do sometimes leap to the defence of writers also but not so much. I spent some time defending Adam Troke once. I guess I don't knoow enough about the difficulties of writting to put up a spirited defence.
I don't think it is a sexist thing. I have defended Gary Morely more than anyone else.
The biggest bun fight I got into here was defending John Blanche and his work from all comers.

I wasn't especially serious with the Roosevelt thing ... but he said it so much more poetically than I could. :D

Anyway. I do apologise. I am sorry for my rudeness there was no excuse.
As you say, 'someone has to be the worst' and if in your opinion that is Trish you are entitled to that opinion.
(However misguided it may be. :D)

EDIT: I should probably apologise to the OP as well for taking this so far off topic.

Draconian77
09-11-2008, 22:35
I skimmed this thread but I did see the part about Trish.

As an aside: You realise that Trish worked on the new DE Hydra right? The Hydra that is so awe inspiring I'm collecting a herd(Much debate went into this but our group decided on herd...) of them for both personal pleasure and a themed scenario.

Now the main point of this post:
To claim that a sculptur is unskilled is just proposterous. Even if you follow his/her career for years and he/she never produces a model that you like it does not mean that that person is untalented, it just means that you and they have completely different ideals/personalities, which is a good thing. Because if everyone liked everything no innovations would ever be made.

On the subject of why people like certain figures its down to many things, its a 50/50 mix of the above paragraph and an appreciation of form. Some things just don't look right(For instance I have yet to meet someone who likes the current DE Harpies, this must be down to them looking "wrong" rather than everyone being of one mind because the odds of that are just, well, Warseer speaks for itself doesn't it?)

txamil
09-11-2008, 22:56
Thanks for your post Harry. 'Worst' was a lot more hyperbole than she deserves and I will admit I was playing the internet. For that I will apologize to you and Trish if she reads the forums.

I honestly don't like the hounds (but now own 2 boxes- can't beat $2.50/dog if you're building a new beasts army) nor the new stegadon, but the Wyvern is fantastic and the Hydra was pretty good too.

MonkeyLord
10-11-2008, 02:37
Not to interrupt the make-up forum sekks, but I thought the Roosevelt quote was quite poignant and pertinent. Perhaps swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, but effective all the same. :D

Lord Dan
10-11-2008, 04:15
I think we should hold an official vote for Harry as "king of the models." :)

Duke Georgal
10-11-2008, 04:42
[QUOTE=Draconian77;3067713]To claim that a sculptur is unskilled is just proposterous. Even if you follow his/her career for years and he/she never produces a model that you like it does not mean that that person is untalented, it just means that you and they have completely different ideals/personalities, which is a good thing. Because if everyone liked everything no innovations would ever be made.[\QUOTE]

This is very true.

I have never liked anything that the late sculpter Dennis Mize sculpted. I even sprang for over $150.00 for his slave auction, which was not good to my eye, and then Iron Wind rereleased it and killed its value. I lost twice!

Anyway, many figure collectors think Dennis' work was great, so obviously it was just not to my preference.

isidril93
10-11-2008, 21:41
if the sculptors were unskilled they wouldnt be able to make models like that.
lets say a sculptist makes the ugliest model ever (exageration of course) but does it in amazing detail, then is that person not a good sculptist.

i personally like all the new models GW have released because i know that i cant do them and they arent really ugly.

people just go to extremes