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CELS
29-11-2005, 17:25
Hey guys, I'm thinking of getting into Epic some day, and I have two newbie questions that I hope someone can help me with.

1) Do I need to hurry before GW decides to stop supporting Epic? I don't want to buy everything off e-bay...

2) I've only skimmed the rules now, but I don't see anything about army organisation in terms of HQ, Troops, Elites, etc. I see that the symbols for HQ, Troops, etc are used in the unit descriptions, but I haven't read anything about needing to take a minimum of HQ and Troop units. Is this whole system discarded in favour of detachments and upgrades?
[Note: I will read the rules, but it's a long document and I'm a bit impatient. I'd appreciate it if people didn't reply telling me to just read the darned book, because I will ;)]

EDIT: Forgot...

3) I've noticed that GW and Forgeworld are selling a lot of the same models. I assume GW ones are less detailed but also more durable, but that they're otherwise nearly identical in size, etc. Correct?

Mechanicus
29-11-2005, 19:46
Well, I hope I can help with some of the questions.

1) Sorry, no idea. I doubt it, but I'm not certain.

2) In Epic, armies are split into formations, large groups of models, and there are a few types, Core and Support being the main ones. You can organise which models are in the formations, but when you do, they have to be from the core formations list. For every core formation, you are allowed to have a certain number of support formations.

3) The Forge World models are general, but many of the GW models are for Armageddon pattern, so the Basilisk has a protective covering over the gun, the FW one doesn't. Apart from that though, you are right.

Hope I helped, and if I have gotten anything wrong, please tell me, as I don't actually play Epic, I just plan to (Like alot of things that I never get round to doing).

Grimshawl
29-11-2005, 19:57
there is definitely no guarentee that Epic or any of the SGs will continue to be supported, they have repeatedly cut back support for the SGs since late last year and have continued pairing down support clear up to this week when they anounced they were droping some figures off the SGs range, I am hoping they at least keep the epic figures and rules that are available now but who knows at this point, it is a great game though.

The Ape
29-11-2005, 20:48
Some of the Forge Wold stuff is a fair bit larger than the specialist games stuff. For example, the vultures and valkyries of the imperial guard are significantly different in size - and the forge world versions are superior in my mind.

You can pick up a lot off ebay if you dont like the current stuff - i have both types of basilisk in my army (well, technically all 3 types but i only use the armageddon and the epic40k versions).

The forge world warhounds are also far superior in design - similar scale though.

CELS
29-11-2005, 22:31
Thanks a lot for your help, guys. I'm posting an armylist in another thread soon, and I hope you can take a look at it. I need to know if the army I intend to buy is a complete suck fest, but without ever having played the game.

Anyway, I'm very sorry to hear that some of the FW stuff is bigger than the GW stuff, although I must admit I suspected as much from the pictures. I'm guessing that the super heavy tanks from FW are a bit bigger. The question is; how much bigger? When I bought FW Thunderhawks for BFG a while back, I was extremely disappointed to see that they were totally out of scale. Is the same thing going to happen with Vultures and Valkyries? Are the GW ones too small or the FW ones too big?

I thought everything in Epic was in the same scale... :confused: (unlike BFG)

ObiWan
29-11-2005, 23:36
I have both Eldar and Space Marines, but I don't own FW models for Epic so I can't answer that one. About Epic biting the dust, you can't tell, I don't think it'll just go poof tomorrow but I am not sure the other way around.
And no, the 40K organization is not supported in Epic, you have units, which are roughly equivalent to models, and formations, which are roughly equivalent to units (Epic-40K respectively)
What army are you thinking about starting? I have friends who have orks and IG so I've basically seen all the "current" supported armies, plus I've checked out the experimental rules for chaos, tau and tyranids (I am actually waiting for an ebay tyranid deal to arrive) so maybe I can give you a hand...

The Ape
30-11-2005, 14:31
The forge world valkyries and vultures are i think more to scale than the games workshop versions. The GW valkyries are pitifully small in my opinion.

Dont have any of the forge world tanks, but when i worked at Warhammer World they had some in the stock room upstairs so i did get a chance to have a look. They are pretty much to the same scale - the super heavies are possibly a bit bigger and chunkier, but thats a good thing as i think the GW versions are a touch on the skinny side. After all, its meant to be huge lumbering war machine not a "slightly larger leman russ".

Post your list on here when you decide what you are going to do and we will try and help you. Although not too much - have to keep some tricks up ones sleeve in case we ever meet at a tournament ;)

CELS
30-11-2005, 18:55
I take it you've seen both the GW and FW valkyries and vultures then, the Ape. Well, I just hope the FW ones aren't too fragile... I had a nasty surprise when I was trying to mount a BFG escort ship from FW on a flying base, applied too much pressure, and it snapped :(

I'm thinking of starting a rather large Imperial Guard army (Steel Legion, I suppose), and then later getting into Eldar and Orks. But I'm confused, because I see FW making models for Grey Knights and Chaos armies, but I can't find any rules for using them.

Here's what I have in mind so far
Steel Legion tank company with hydra (700 points)
Steel Legion tank company with hydra (700 points)
Steel Legion tank company (650 points)
Sentinel squadron (100 points)
Storm trooper platoon in Valkyrie transports (350 points)
Storm trooper platoon in Valkyrie transports (350 points)
Vulture squadron (300 points)
Super-heavy tank platoon (200 points)
Flak battery (150 points)
2 Warhound Titans (500 points)

Total = 4000 points

Basically, it's an armoured regiment. Is the huge lack of infantry going to be a big problem? I just don't like the look of the regular guardsmen. Maybe I'll take a mechanised infantry company instead of the third armoured company. Please, give me your thoughts!

---

The Ape, we wouldn't really meet in a tournament unless you came to Norway, in which case we'd definitely meet, since no one else seems to play it here :)

StugMeister
30-11-2005, 19:11
The great thing about infantry is that they get cover saves which armour does not.

The Ape
30-11-2005, 20:19
Most tournament (in the UK at least) games tend to be 3000 points - worth bearing in mind when it comes to making a list.

Never tried more than one tank platoon - when iv faced them with my space marines iv found them quite easy to knock out but it would be interesting to see how it works.

Remember, the strength of the imperial guard is their numbers and taking lots of tanks, whilst "cool" may not be making the most of their strengths. They will be easier to break than a large infantry company as well - all it will take is a couple of blast markers from different opponents and a couple of casualties to suppress the majority or even break them totally.

I love the warhound titan but only in my space marine army - the imperial guard list has plenty of other options available to it. Try three seperate shadowswords - its 100 points more then a super heavy company but it means you dont waste your excellent anti-titan firepower and also means you can stick a commissar in each one (i think).

As for the forgeworld valkyries - they are a bit more fragile, but thats to be expected with resin. Having said that, they are just far far far nicer than the GW version. I use the GW vultures, but thats only cos i couldnt afford both at the time, and i use the valkyries more than the vultures.

ObiWan
30-11-2005, 20:58
Sounds like a good list but I'd definitely include infantry for the reasons already noted; besides at this scale is hard to like or not the look of the figures, he he.

Mouldsta
30-11-2005, 22:35
Ok, there's a couple of problems with this list - firstly, the number of activations is only 10. Ideally you want between 2.5 - 3.5 activations per 1000pts, so you have pretty much the bare minimum to be competitive.

Second problem would be in air cover, 5 hydas is good, but as you have 3 clumped in one unit, one good AT shot will kill a hydra, breaking the other 2 (one blast marker for being shot, one blast marker for casulty). I'd always spread hydras out among units, so they don't break or get easily suppressed.

2 wahounds together isn't great either IMO - as they're very fast and independent, they do well capturing enemy positions, getting behind units to provide crossfire etc. By shackling them together you reduce their effectiveness.

Onto a MAJOR problem - you have no supreme commander. With any army you NEED a SC, especially in 4000pts, and doubly especially with guard. Without a SC you'll have a lot less chance of being able to actually activate, and even less chance of pulling off risky manouves like retaining (the sort of moves that win you the game)

Your lack of infantry could be problematic - infantry are great at holding buildings, and great at flushing enemy infantry out of buildings. As guard get loads of infantry, they're also top notch at providing supporting fire (assault with the tanks that have lovely rerollable armour, and get a ton of supporting fire from the nearby infantry). I'm not a fan of regualr grunts, but mobile infantry is too good to pass up - for 150pts extra your infantry move twice as fast, have a -1 modifier for being shot at (cover), double their firepower, get extra FF attacks, are harder to break, and are more likely to get the outnumbering bonus(s).

The last obvious problem is that you have 2 units that are both the most expensive - this means that either unit is your "break their spirit" objective, so if your opponet kills either of these units then he's got one objective already. IMO always make one unit more expensive than everything else, and preferably don't make this the unit with your SC in it (as otherwise it'll attract a ton of fire).