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Tyron
10-02-2009, 20:52
Greetings,

Let us pretend for one moment that someone is making a Codex for each Chaos Legion. However, they want to know which one the community feels should be released first and this is your chance to decide who comes first.

If you can select which one Legion from the poll you wish to be brought out first that would be great.

Discussions welcome.

dal9ll
10-02-2009, 20:58
Emperor's Children without a doubt!

Think of it:
-more Sonic Weapons
-Sonic weapons on dreadnaughts and tanks
-availibility of non-generic Daemons
-more special characters
-and of course, Emperor's Children models!

DoomedFuture
10-02-2009, 21:14
Death Guard, World Eaters, or Emperor's Children. So I voted Death Guard for awesome pustulent glory!

Sons of Horus/Black Legion should be last, just because its fluffy for them to incorporate other cults. So the others should be done first.

blackroyal
10-02-2009, 21:18
I want more sonic weapons... Emperor's Children is my vote.

Lord Malorne
10-02-2009, 21:21
Thousand sons...very pretty, the pre-heresy stuff would be amazing.

loveless
10-02-2009, 21:24
Emperor's Children. Preferably packed with more sonic goodness and more lightning-fast, in-your-face assault capability (in different units...you know...for variation).

Bloodknight
10-02-2009, 21:31
Tie between DeathGuard and World Eaters for me, but that's because I play both ;)

Ork
10-02-2009, 21:36
I don't think it should be cult army, mainly because they can easily build lists in the current codex. I voted alpha legion, as they could use the cultists they used to have, along with all the infiltration. Cult armies were extremely spoiled in 4th, I hope they don't return to that point.

Tyron
10-02-2009, 22:28
For those of you who want more development on Noise Marines, you have to remember the Emperor's Children are not all made up of Noise Marines.

Therefore when I suggest Emperor's Children I refer to the non Noise Marine side of them :p

But overall thanks for the contributions and I hope more are to come ;)

loveless
10-02-2009, 22:35
For those of you who want more development on Noise Marines, you have to remember the Emperor's Children are not all made up of Noise Marines.

Therefore when I suggest Emperor's Children I refer to the non Noise Marine side of them :p


Well, yes, but they still need some Noise Marines, and we'd likely see a higher proportion of NM in an EC army than anywhere else. The rest of the force should simply fight with the standard Slaaneshi stylings - fast, aloof, and precise.

Also...you seemed to have put the Sons of Horus (Black Legion) as an option...they're actually quite well represented by the standard Chaos book, as they're a decent sampling of everything Chaos has to offer.

MaliGn
10-02-2009, 22:51
I voted Word Bearers, based on them being the army I'm collecting *right* now, I feel that the current codex is perfect for them though - especially generic Daemons.

Seth the Dark
10-02-2009, 22:54
It would have to be Deathguard for me. I jsut haven't gotten round to redoing my Plaguemarines since the new codex.

AlphaLegionMarine
10-02-2009, 22:57
Uhm, I chose Thousand Sons...not

carldooley
10-02-2009, 23:13
how about some souldrinkers? out of the ones listed, I would probably go nightlords or whichever one had all the heretics.

p.s. I'm not all that sure as to whether souldrinkers would be considered loyalist or renegade, but there is enough ambiguity there so that they could be fielded as either.

holmcross
10-02-2009, 23:15
(wrong thread)

Tyron
10-02-2009, 23:16
Also...you seemed to have put the Sons of Horus (Black Legion) as an option...they're actually quite well represented by the standard Chaos book, as they're a decent sampling of everything Chaos has to offer.

Black Legion have been done already and AFAIK there are still some around (not everyone can agree with Abaddon). This also would allow players to play the Legion's favoured "spear tip assault" tactic.

TheBigBadWolf
10-02-2009, 23:32
World Eaters all the way, nothing like rampaging about with chain axes in 3rd edition :D

Private Ginger
10-02-2009, 23:43
I'd have to say Iron Warriors because, even though I don't play chaos, whenever I play, I play in a static gunline sort of army. The IW suit me the best, so I chose them.

gamer2456
10-02-2009, 23:53
World Eaters because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Glabro
10-02-2009, 23:56
Realistically, they could only do one Legions book.
It'd mostly include background and rules for the four cult Legions, save a page per Legion for the other Legions' backgrounds alongside a Special Character that incorporates the rules of his Legion, Codex SM style.

Would you buy such a book?

Anyway, for the poll. I'll say Alpha Legion. No way it'd generate enough market interest, but that was not the question.

spacemonkey
10-02-2009, 23:58
Alpha Legion- Best shot at getting some form of LatD/cultist army back into 40k. *hides*

Unamed Consript
11-02-2009, 00:02
huh, when i saw this i immeadiatly thought of pre heresy armies....thats why i voted death guard (both my fav, and my pre heresy army)

But after seeing i was wrong i vote for alpha legion because i believe they are still loyal to the emperor

Tyron
11-02-2009, 00:09
It would be a mix of both Unamed Conscript.

Glabro
11-02-2009, 00:11
You fool! You are to report to the Warseer Inquisition for summary vote changing for giving your vote to the enemy!

Vaktathi
11-02-2009, 00:18
Personally?

Iron Within, Iron Without


That said, I like the Night Lords almost as much and feel they could have some absolutely incredible leadership/morale related abilities and deployment tricks.

Justicar Myo
11-02-2009, 00:32
Thousand Sons, i mean Psi power are the best thing in Warhammer 40k

Ivellis
11-02-2009, 00:40
Personally?

Iron Within, Iron Without


That said, I like the Night Lords almost as much and feel they could have some absolutely incredible leadership/morale related abilities and deployment tricks.

This! Bring the iron!

tacoo
11-02-2009, 00:42
Thousand sons. i just think there awsome and tzeenetch (i think i spelled that wrong) is my favorite chaos god, thousand sons i love all the way. plus, i love the whole egyptian look

Usopreme
11-02-2009, 03:01
as much as I love the world eaters I'm going to have to say either alpha legion or word bearers ( I voted word bearers) because they are the only legions you really can't represent with the book they have now.

holmcross
11-02-2009, 03:16
Codex: Traitor Legions (The four God-specific cult armies) as a published codex.

Codex: Traitor Legions II (Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Nightlords and Iron Warriors) should be an online codex released as a PDF.

The thought of individual codecies is nice in theory, but you'd be waiting till the year 40,000 for them all to come out.

starlight
11-02-2009, 03:30
Yeah, yeah, likely we'll be able to count the Night Lords votes on one hand (maybe two), but they are the only Legion I've ever even considered building a force for, so they get my vote. :p


And yes, the two books noted above are both the most sensible and the most likely. :)

adreal
11-02-2009, 05:33
Well I voted for Emperor's Children.....seeing as that's hte army I play. And I would like more types of noise marines, like crazy drug fuiled close combat types (right now I use the zerker rules) and I want a sonic land raider (I have a conversion all planned out, two twin liked blastmasters and twin linked sonics....ah it'll be awesome)

I am aware not all emperor's children are noise marines, but most as pretty messed up so...

ChaosReigns
11-02-2009, 05:40
My vote would go either to World Eaters, Thousand Sons or Death Guard (love all three) but, ultimately, World Eaters come out on top, since I like them the best out of the trio.

Alx_152
11-02-2009, 05:55
Emperor's Children of course.

Earthbeard
11-02-2009, 08:53
I play Deathguard and Emp Children, so i'd like to see those first.

In reality I'm sure it'll be word bearers or world eaters, khorne seems to trump anything else and word bearers seem to be more ubiquitus than black legion are, which is a little odd.

On another point I imagine the "later" legion books would get the old codex creep angle......so i secretly desire Death Guard to be later for this reason, who wouldn't :P

Ganymene
11-02-2009, 09:37
Iron Warriors.

Ever since I read Storm of Iron, I have wanted to build an Iron Warriors army. I could probably do it now, but I have other things to work on.

And based on the fact that legion codeci will not be coming out for a looooong time, it gives me a chance to do other things.

Born Again
11-02-2009, 09:42
Well, the idea has been hinted at by GW. While cool, I'd have to pass on any of the undivided legions. While many of them (particularly Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers) have differences that could warrant a new book, they're able to be handled ok by the current codex imo. The Power's legions however, could do with their own. Out of these, I went with Death Guard as Nurgle has long been my favourite Chaos power. Though I suppose any would do, they're probably all warranted and would be just as cool as each other. In all likelyhood Khorne would come first though, as it's GW favourite I think.

laudarkul
11-02-2009, 10:29
Alpha Legion...Beacuse of the "Legion"- voted
Iron Warriors...For the "Storm of Iron"

Askari
11-02-2009, 10:39
Thousand Sons.

As it's about time we have even semi-decent psykers. (SM get Gate, Slaaneshi get Lash... not fair!)
Rubric Havocs, Sorcerer Dreadnought, Disc-Riders....

If not, then Emperor's Children.
So much Sonic goodness, as well as more strange Aura of Acquiescence style wargear.

Tyron
11-02-2009, 15:29
Interesting how most people here are in favour of Emperor's Children I honestly thought it would have been World Eaters or Death Guard.

Keep poling please this is important! ;)

tortoise
11-02-2009, 15:39
Emperor's Children- I think they are the legion that could currently profit most from new models and rules, plus, I play 'em.

ParadoX_83
11-02-2009, 16:13
I chose Konrad Curze's boys.

Johnnyfrej
11-02-2009, 16:15
Iron Within!
Iron Without!

AdmiralDick
11-02-2009, 16:17
i find polls on this subject slightly distressing, because they tend to point out some obvious flaws in the way we as gamers have been taught to appreciate the background material and game.


Death Guard, World Eaters, or Emperor's Children. So I voted Death Guard for awesome pustulent glory!

firstly there is often a lot of support for armies that weren't that popular when they have been represented according to their background.

as an example, the DG have always been glacially slow and unrelenting, relying heavily on massed infantry to demoralisingly absorb the enemy fire and then crush the enemy under their weighty heels. in practice this turned out not to be very popular. there were regular complaints of 'why can't i have bikes' and 'where are all my heavy weapons'. a full on codex would be unlikely to fair any better (which is a shame because i would love to see much more diverse SM armies).


I don't think it should be cult army, mainly because they can easily build lists in the current codex.

then there is the equally upsetting opinion, that 'such and such' an army would be boring and doesn't need any further exploration or that the generic, middle-ground current codex represents them well enough.

this isn't true about any of the Traitor Legions, it just in implication of an inability to think 'outside the box' (such a loathsome phrase). none of the Legions should have to put up with being considered near identical to others, and there is more than enough scope to make them all highly individual.

what we really need is some decent ideas on just what a Legion is and how it differs from a Chapter.


Also...you seemed to have put the Sons of Horus (Black Legion) as an option...they're actually quite well represented by the standard Chaos book, as they're a decent sampling of everything Chaos has to offer.

i think the current book does a shambolic job of representing the Black Legion. it does nothing to conjure up the character of the Legion at all. is there some evidence of how the decrepit Legion system differs from the regimented Chapter system? do we learn about their experimental nature, being the originators of Defilers and Possessed? do we realise something of their superior tactical abilities, which led Horus to become the Warmaster and Abaddon to re-unit the remaining traitors? do we hear about the many heroic characters the Legion has produced over its millennia long history? do we even find out about what makes a Cthonian different from a Olympian?

if the current codex is supposed to have the BL at its core, it is surprisingly bare of evidence to suggest that.


I voted Word Bearers, based on them being the army I'm collecting *right* now, I feel that the current codex is perfect for them though - especially generic Daemons.

i should certainly hope that the current codex is not 'perfect' for representing them, otherwise all their background material is wrong.


Thousand sons...very pretty, the pre-heresy stuff would be amazing.

i imagine that is a true TS army was produced by GW that it would end up being one of the hardest armies in the game to master. so full of tricks and switches that most players would be entirely put off by it. you would have to put up with a lot of losses before you ever got good enough to win. but hopefully winning would be an immensely joyous success.

i would prefer that GW didn't attempt this particular Legion until they felt they had an expert designer with an expert idea already under his belt.


The rest of the force should simply fight with the standard Slaaneshi stylings - fast, aloof, and precise.

that would be what i would want to see as the basic hallmarks of an EC army, and to see them in even greater quantities than they had in 3.5.


But after seeing i was wrong i vote for alpha legion because i believe they are still loyal to the emperor

:eyebrows: yes. apparently them and every other Chaos Space Marine.

i wonder if its actually possible to find anyone that worships the Dark Gods in the Eye of Terror.


On another point I imagine the "later" legion books would get the old codex creep angle......so i secretly desire Death Guard to be later for this reason, who wouldn't :P

i also imagine that all the 'good ideas' will be written first. then GW will start writing 'bad ideas' just because they feel they have to. and eventually they'll give up before finishing.

that's what they always seem to do when they set themselves a goal.

Vaktathi
11-02-2009, 16:32
I don't think Tsons would be *that* hard to do, just a bit more thought than a 4+ invul save for everything.

If Tsons units had something like a pyshic warp based distortion field, say requiring re-rolling successful hits against them, the ability to teleport units from one place on the board to another, taking temporary control of (or negating opponents control) enemy units, of things like that (at the cost of being very expensive and low on model count) I think the army could be very fun to play, powerful, and fluffy.

maelstrom66669
11-02-2009, 17:04
I dont think its realistic that all the different legions would get a book, more likely a book with a bunch of them in it together, possibly with some different rules for each one. But to answer the question, World Eaters.

malisteen
11-02-2009, 17:09
1) I don't like the idea of legion codeces. While I don't like the current codex, and think Chaos Marines should get a new one, I do think the basic premise of a single army list from which players can reasonably construct whatever themed chaos marine armies they wish is possible. It's possible without sub lists or variant lists or separate codeces. It's just not possible in a codex that also tries to slim down special rules, options, equipment, and unit types to a skeletal level. A chaos marine codex created in the spirit of the new loyalist marine book could totally pull it off.

2) That said, under the hypothetical circumstances you put forward, I would say the Emperor's Children would be the best first choice candidate, as their forces would show more significant deviations from generic chaos marines, and they were the legion that suffered the most when the 4e chaos marine book was released.

3) Calling the Black Legion 'Sons of Horus' sounds way too heresy-focused to me. It's all well and good to remember the heresy in the fluff - it's the blackened, beating heart of Chaos Marine motivation. However, a lot of fluff time has passed since the heresy, and I'd much rather have a codex describing the chaos marines as they are now then a 'historical' army list completely out of sync with the rest of the game. The heresy series are great books - but the armies as described in them simply don't exist any more. The loyalist legions were completely re-organized, and most of their firepower taken out of space marine hands, and even the more consistent and regimented of the chaos legions (Iron Warriors & the like) have been changed dramatically by ten thousand years (four thousand years more then the entirety of real-life recorded human history to date) of constant warfare and exposure to the warp.

Tyron
11-02-2009, 18:31
Seeing as how the Emperor's Children are the main interest of the disucssion I am curious...

Would people be happy with an Emperor's Children list with Noise Marines as an elites option though can be taken if in units of 6 (or multiples), and then possibly a Noise Marine cult list later on.

Remember the Emperor's Children would have their own distinct rules and play style from the rest of the Legions along with some cool unit upgrades.

loveless
11-02-2009, 20:10
Seeing as how the Emperor's Children are the main interest of the disucssion I am curious...

Would people be happy with an Emperor's Children list with Noise Marines as an elites option though can be taken if in units of 6 (or multiples), and then possibly a Noise Marine cult list later on.

Remember the Emperor's Children would have their own distinct rules and play style from the rest of the Legions along with some cool unit upgrades.

That might be a decent topic for a new thread, actually...

And no, it would be rather odd to make Noise Marines an elite option in a theoretical Codex: Emperor's Children.

They're troops in Codex: Chaos Space Marines - why would the Legion with the most Noise Marines per capita only get them as Elites? :wtf:

They should have Noise Marines and Emperor's Children Marines as troops (with the Mark of Slaanesh built in, none of this Icon crap for the Legions, please :p).

The Elites section should have your Noise Terminators, your Slaanesh Terminators, Chosen Children, etc. etc.

What's your reasoning behind putting them in an Elite slot as opposed to Troops?

malisteen
11-02-2009, 20:59
While we're wishlisting/discussing what we think chaos codeces 'should' be....


As I've mentioned, if it were just what I'd prefer, I'd rather have all the chaos marines in a single book, but one made in the spirit of the new loyalist book - ie, that special rules, units, equipment, and options are a good thing, and worth the space they take to include. I mean, the Loyalist book's actual army list is 15 pages long, with 2 to 5 entries per page depending on how many options they require (special characters and most vehicles require few, elite units generally require many, etc). I think a good chaos army list could fit in that, including:

Page 1: Special HQ (Abby, Huron, Bile, Cypher)
Page 2: Special HQ (Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus)
Page 3: Special HQ (IW, AL, WB, NL)
Page 4: Generic HQ (Prince, Lord; with sorcerer and cult upgrades for both)
Page 5: Elites (Undivided Cult termies & vets)
Page 6: Elites (Khorne Cult termies & zerkers)
Page 7: Elites (Tzeentch Cult termies & sons)
Page 8: Elites (Slaaneshi Cult termies & noise marines)
Page 9: Elites (Nurgle Cult termies & plague marines)
Page 10: Elites (Possessed, Dreadnought; also rhino transport)
Page 11: Troops (Chaos Marines, Cultists, and mutant hordes)
Page 12: Fast Attack (Raptors, Bikes, & mini defiler/chaos sentinels)
Page 13: Heavy Support (Oblits, Havocs, Defiler)
Page 14: Heavy Support (Land Raider, Vindicator, Predator, maybe something new)
Page 15: Summoned Daemons (0-1 Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons)

Special Rules: terminators can only be taken in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Power armored Cult/Vet units become troops choices in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Vehicles can have aligned options if the army includes an HQ with the appropriate mark (including a decent 'undivided' upgrade, and sonic weapons for slaaneshi marked vehicles). Chosen and generic terminators would be upgraded to a cult of their own, and would always be undivided. Cults in general would be made more expensive, and more elite (high Ws/Bs, fearless, etc) - this would make them actually feel like the veterans of 10,000 years of war, would cement them as the elites of the Legions while the bulk is provided by lesser servants fo chaos. It would ensure that the normal troops choices remain the most points efficient and attractive for that reason, but would allow purist 'original legion members only' armies for those who wanted such.

The army would include 'favor (or disfavor) of the gods' rules similar in concept to fantasy chaos mortals. Special characters would upgrade and restrict their armies in various ways fitting their gimmicks (Abaddon has all the marks, making all cult units troops, and might have a rule upgrading an attached unit of undivided termies; AL SC would give undivided vets the infiltrate rule; Cypher lets you replace 'fearless' with 'atsknf' for undivided vets & termies, etc). SCs in general would specifically reward you for taking units that match their mark, or prevent you from taking other marks outright, depending on their nature.


Add in some more options in the units themselves, and I think you would have a list capable of reasonably representing any of the chaos legions, as well as non-Legion chaos forces. You could even do a passing imitation of LatD. An EC list from such a codex could have:

SC: Lucius
HQ: Slaaneshi prince or Lord
Elite: Cult Terminators, Slaaneshii Possessed, Sonic Dred
Troops: Noise Marines, Slaaneshii CSMs, slaaneshii cultists, slaaneshii mutants
Fast: Slaaneshii Bikes (probably not sonic, though), sonic mini-defilers
Heavy: Slaaneshii Havocs (probably not sonic), sonic tanks
Non-choice: Slaaneshii summoned daemons, not as strong as daemonic legion slaaneshii versions due to the summoning/binding rituals, but still distinctly slaaneshii rather then generic

And it could do that without having to resort to sub-lists or variant codeces.

Heck, you could make lucious' gimmick allowing sonic upgrades on non-cult slaaneshii units, which would then allow sonic bikes and havocs without having to devote space to it in the bike or havoc entries. Sure, some might complain about having to take a special character for the 'full version' of their army, but that's just sorta how its done right now, and the theme would still be workable without.

chivalrous
11-02-2009, 21:12
I've always had a passion for building a word bearers army since I started playing back in 2nd edition, their background as religiously zealous, dark mirror to the loyalist marines, to the point where they had their own chaplains and rigid doctrine thoroughly appealed.

As far as an army list goes, the current codex provides quite well for them and really they don't need anything more than a couple of tweaks to include Chaplains, Cultist Cells and a greater number of daemons, with restrictions on the number of god specific units as they are famous for worshipping the undivided 'purest form' of Chaos.

As a second choice I'd go for Alpha legion, just the thought of an entire army compiled solely of infiltrators and no vehicles or a cultist force with minimal marine presence.

vampires are cool!
11-02-2009, 21:27
World Eaters. Why? Because i want to see the mad-dog antics of frenzied savages intertwined with the face pummeling, ass kicking, throat bitting, gloves off beat'em'up style I have been missing ever since they took away my Blood Thirster.

Plus, Khorne get a bad rep as just angry guys. Hell, Death Guard are just marines with a cold in my book. Oh noes, they has the sniffles! Lets run away! No, I would like to see the 'zerks fleshed out a bit, given some love by a designer who likes them and understands their mind set.

Tyron
11-02-2009, 21:30
What's your reasoning behind putting them in an Elite slot as opposed to Troops?

From a fluff perspective Noise Marines aren't abundant so having too many of them in an non cult Emperor's Children doesn't seem plausible.

Having them as elites would show the rarity they actually are, while having one or two of their rules tweaked also to make them fit in line. The idea of allowing them to be troops if they take 6 or multiples there of would be to make the more balanced and prevent cookie-cutter lists.

The reason they're troops in the Chaos codex is allow players to mix and match the army and allow them to try and field cult lists, if they were elites then you would be very restricted and unable to make a cult list.

Try Again Bragg
11-02-2009, 21:46
Alpha Legion if they got to take cultists as an option. Iron Warriors if they got to have Basilisks again.

Hashshashin
11-02-2009, 21:59
World Eater's all the way.

Combine Berserkers with some Khorne daemons, more costumizable Daemon Princes and at least a few new war engines and we'd be in buissness.

revnow
11-02-2009, 22:06
My suspicion and hope is that the first legion codexes will follow in the Space Marine's footsteps by covering legions of note that aren't covered in the current Codex and have a decent fluff background. Economically, the thinking this is that you can sell to players whose army of preference isn't currently represented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard and Black Legion) by producing the Legion codex, fluff novels, and new models all at once.

I think it is highly unlikely that Legion codexes will be released for Legions that have their HQs and forces represented in Codex: CSM. Looking at the codex organization of loyalist Marines; Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templar have Chapter codexes while Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists do not. In the same way,TSons, EC, WE, DG, and BL will remain in Codex: CSM while armies like the Alpha Legion, Nighlords, Iron Warriors, and possibly Word Bearers have a better chances of recieving Legion codexes. GW will want to maximize the sales potential of any new codex, which means producing ones with the greatest potential for selling new models, books and codexes.

On that note, I'm all for a Alpha Legion or Nightlords dex.

SockMonkey
11-02-2009, 22:08
I think they should do one big Codex ala the new Codex:Spacemarines.

Should be in 2 sections

1 - Cults specifics DG,WE ect.
2 - Legions Undivided - Alpha,Word Bearers ect.

I only say pile them into one codex as having them do 2 separate is a pipe dream. And while I think the current codex is a decent one that CERTAINLY holds its own, I would like to see these often underutilized Legions get some love.

loveless
11-02-2009, 22:53
From a fluff perspective Noise Marines aren't abundant so having too many of them in an non cult Emperor's Children doesn't seem plausible.


As an aside - From a fluff perspective, Space Marines aren't abudant ;)

I agree with the multiples of 6 thing, but let's face it - anyone who wants to play Noise Marines is probably going to put them in multiples of 6 anyway, so putting them in Elites when you could fit so much more into that section of the army list is a bit pointless if they're just going to end up as troops anyway.

Luckily, the past 2 Chaos Marine codices have allowed you to field NM as troops, so I don't see them losing that ability anytime soon.

TheMartyr451
12-02-2009, 00:10
Black Legion, because that's my army. :skull:

Lanparth
12-02-2009, 01:31
Honestly? If they are to do a Legions Codex, I'd like to see them only publish two.

Legions of Undivided. (of course, its a multi-army list supplement)

Legions of Dedication. (same)

Tyron
12-02-2009, 13:47
As an aside - From a fluff perspective, Space Marines aren't abudant ;)

During the Crusade they were and they still are.

I agree with the multiples of 6 thing, but let's face it - anyone who wants to play Noise Marines is probably going to put them in multiples of 6 anyway, so putting them in Elites when you could fit so much more into that section of the army list is a bit pointless if they're just going to end up as troops anyway.

Depends they may be cheaper enabling players to take more therefore larger units.

Luckily, the past 2 Chaos Marine codices have allowed you to field NM as troops, so I don't see them losing that ability anytime soon.

Who knows ;)

pringles978
13-02-2009, 15:10
i just want cult terminators and god specific daemons. i would love deathguard but any book would be a step in the right direction

Mannimarco
13-02-2009, 15:13
id have to say death guard as well, gives me an excuse to try playtesting my flylord character again and try army special rules like in the new marine codex

x-esiv-4c
13-02-2009, 15:38
Deathguard. No contest :D

Vermiculatus
13-02-2009, 15:52
Word bearers need it the most. The deamons in the codex just don't cut it.

TheDarkDuke
13-02-2009, 15:57
i voted for alpha legion since they were really the only legion to really get hit hard since cultiists dont even have an option or anything to even remotely represent in the book.(don't start crying about how you can't make your stupidly overpowered iron warrior list anymore yeesh).

although from a biased perspective i want thousand sons since there my favorite. but it really should be alpha legion first

PapaDoc
13-02-2009, 16:19
Funny that deathguard is the most picked choices. They are one of the strongest builds right now. Guess some people never can have enough.

malisteen
13-02-2009, 20:15
It's not about power. Many, possibly even most, of those who want to see a deathguard codex would gladly play a dedicated deathguard list, with plague marine heroes and terminators, and explicitly nurgle-aligned daemons and vehicles and wargear, even if power level and points efficiency of the list were lower then that of the current book.

Thing is, most anybody who wants a Legion codex could say the same. My position remains that the problem lies not with having all the chaos marine factions covered under a single codex, but with the failure of that particular codex to live up to the task. A failing rooted in a combination of its rushed development (it looks, feels, reads, and plays like a 'rough draft'), and its minimalist philosophy regarding special rules, units, and options in general. I want a new chaos codex as bad as anybody. I hardly play anymore, not because I can't win with it (I placed second in my local store's CoD league), but because it's simply boring. However, I want a new Chaos Marine codex, one that suitably covers all the chaos marine forces. I don't want subcodeces peeling away the chaos playerbase and dividing the fluff while the majority of chaos marine players are forced to sit around with the same dull codex even longer because of it.


Cult heroes and terminators, aligned wargear and vehicle upgrades, a selection of lesser daemons (or even just a single statline for 'summoned' daemons, but markable), and special characters that influence their armies in the same way that loyalist special characters do (by shifting around force org slots, or replacing special rules), are all you really need to have all the Legions fit under the same codex. Add in some new options (maybe a new fast attack choice, maybe cultists or mutants as a troops choice, maybe elevate undivided vets & termies to a cult of their own), and you have something fresh and interesting while also being a better match for chaos marine fluff.

All of this is easily possible in a single codex, at least one created in the vein of the current Loyalist book. Again, just because the current rushed chaos book failed to pull it off, that doesn't mean it can't be done.

adreal
14-02-2009, 07:56
It's not about power. Many, possibly even most, of those who want to see a deathguard codex would gladly play a dedicated deathguard list, with plague marine heroes and terminators, and explicitly nurgle-aligned daemons and vehicles and wargear, even if power level and points efficiency of the list were lower then that of the current book.

Thing is, most anybody who wants a Legion codex could say the same. My position remains that the problem lies not with having all the chaos marine factions covered under a single codex, but with the failure of that particular codex to live up to the task. A failing rooted in a combination of its rushed development (it looks, feels, reads, and plays like a 'rough draft'), and its minimalist philosophy regarding special rules, units, and options in general. I want a new chaos codex as bad as anybody. I hardly play anymore, not because I can't win with it (I placed second in my local store's CoD league), but because it's simply boring. However, I want a new Chaos Marine codex, one that suitably covers all the chaos marine forces. I don't want subcodeces peeling away the chaos playerbase and dividing the fluff while the majority of chaos marine players are forced to sit around with the same dull codex even longer because of it.


Cult heroes and terminators, aligned wargear and vehicle upgrades, a selection of lesser daemons (or even just a single statline for 'summoned' daemons, but markable), and special characters that influence their armies in the same way that loyalist special characters do (by shifting around force org slots, or replacing special rules), are all you really need to have all the Legions fit under the same codex. Add in some new options (maybe a new fast attack choice, maybe cultists or mutants as a troops choice, maybe elevate undivided vets & termies to a cult of their own), and you have something fresh and interesting while also being a better match for chaos marine fluff.

All of this is easily possible in a single codex, at least one created in the vein of the current Loyalist book. Again, just because the current rushed chaos book failed to pull it off, that doesn't mean it can't be done.

See I agree with you but I don't want the only way to field emps children is to take lucius, or death guard to take typhus...

If taking lucius, typhus, kharn, etc lets you culterise other units (termies,chosen, possessed, havocs, bikers) then yeah, bring it on. But if the only way to get cult troopers is to take a special character rather then the tried and true cult troopers are troops if army is led by a marked character, then forget about it.

malisteen
14-02-2009, 13:47
You're right, full cult versions of every unit type in the army wouldn't be possible. Probably not even possible with special character list manipulation.

I personally think a list that makes cult heroes, cult terminators, and cult troops available, alongside lesser, not-yet-veteran (and as such not yet cult) but still marked troops and auxiliaries, aligned summoned daemons, and a rabble of cultists and mutants would be perfectly serviceable. Maybe I'm wrong.

I certainly think it would be preferable to cult codeces which will mean 1) even more marine codeces in 40k, 2) the extension of the current lame chaos book's life for another 2 or more years, 3) the pitting of chaos players against each other as jealosies erupt over who gets a new codex and who is stuck with the lame old one, or from undivided legions annoyed that they still get crammed together when cult armies get their own books, 4) the pitting of the rest of the 40k community against chaos fans as all the other armies see their books delayed 1 to 3 extra years as several chaos codeces are releaced without even the loyalist marines' "three times the sales of anybody else" justification, and 5) the inevitable dissapointment as the chaos marine following proves unable to support five or more codeces, and GW shifts gears half way through releasing the cult codeces only to release another rushed unified chaos book, only this time half the cult armies have even more ultra-specific units enshrined in their armies that can't make the translation then they did when 4e came out.


Again, though, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe chaos is popular enough to justify 4 different cult codeces, and an undivided codex, and a daemon codex simultaneously. Maybe 40k players are patient enough to put up with an extra 2 years between new releases for their armies. Maybe Black Legion doesn't have enough support to keep the cult units in a single book (because if you split cult armies out of generic chaos marines, Black Legion aren't enough of a justification to keep four cult units and four mark upgrades in a codex when no other subfaction in that codex would use them).


I could live with that. If chaos really does have that much support in 40k, and if the game and it's community really can handle an extra two years added into codex cycles, then I'll accept my own mixed-mark style getting sacrificed for the benefit of single-mark players. I'll still have my misgivings, feeling that a mixed-mark philosophy like the one assumed by the current fantasy chaos mortals army book, would be better for the game and its fluff and its community.


I mean, imagine if they not only cultivated sub-factions of eldar, but then encouraged the idea that these subfactions hated and fought each other more then anyone else. The sub-faction mentality has always been a mistake in my mind. Making provisions for themed lists within an army = good. Dividing that army so that it can never be put back together = bad.

Grand Master Raziel
14-02-2009, 15:57
The poll really should have included a "None" option. Just sayin'.

I didn't vote in the poll, because I don't feel strongly that any of the Chaos Legions need their own dex. That said, the case is a lot more convincing for the Cult legions than for any of the Undivided Legions. In play, the Undivided Legions are largely just variations of the Black Legion, which can be portrayed by emphasizing certain aspects of the existing list, as it's impossible to completely fill the FOC with decent-sized, adequately upgraded units. What I'd do...

Iron Warriors: Emphasize Heavy Support - Oblits and Vindicators in particular
Night Lords: Emphasize Fast Attack - Raptors in particular
Alpha Legion: Emphasize Elites - infiltrating Chosen
Word Bearers: Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemon shock troops, maybe Possessed

So, absolutely no need for a seperate dex for any of the Undivided Legions. Cult Legion players can at least make a somewhat convincing claim that certain units in a Cult list ought to have the full Cult Mark - Terminators, for instance (there are counter-arguments, but they've been well aired, and it'd be a tangent). That said, those that tend to be vocal for Cult Legion dexes have completely rejected the idea that units with Icons of the Chaos god in question are legitimate and apppropriate additions to a Cult list. This, I feel, is a major mistake. At the very least, you'd expect some Icon-bearing troops to be in a Cult legion as an intermediate step between being a potential recruit and a full blown NM/PM/Zerk. Also, becoming a full blown NM/PM/Zerk is a descent into psychotic fanaticism that really seems ill-suited to the pesky little chores that are critical to maintaining an effective fighting force, such as recruitment, training, supply, maintenance, establishing and following battlefield tactics, and establishing and following an overall strategy. The full blown Cult troops would be pretty ill-suited to such things, so the responsiblity for all those things would fall on troops who are faithful to the god in question, but have passed on the "opportunity" to become a raving lunatic (or haven't earned the right yet, if it makes you feel better). Personally, I think there ought to be two different "career tracks" for a Chaos Marine; 1: Chaos Marine to Cult Marine to nutjob Champion a la Kharn, Lucius, or Typhus; or 2: Chaos Marine to Chosen to Chaos Lord.

As for the Thousand Sons, you cannot with a straight face deny that they absolutely need to have the Icon-bearing CSMs in there to adequately portray the Legion. Rubric Marines were created by the Rubric of Ahriman, which was a one-time event that took place many thousands of years in the past. Anyone recruited since then would not be a Rubric Marine, plain and simple.

DhaosAndy
14-02-2009, 16:17
Personaly if they did single legion codexes (which I dought) EC should be first since they lost the most.

While we're wishing though, I'll tell you what I really don't want. I don't want the CSM version of the current SM dex, all that special character 'X' unlocks option 'Y' nonsense, yuk. I'd sooner persist with the current dross than put up with, say, Ahriman as the new Eldrad.

Nearly missed that my old GMR, ;)

[with a straight face]

All members of the Thousand Sons Legion are either Rubrics or Sorcerers, therefore all subsequent recruits to the Legion must be sorcerers. :p

malisteen
14-02-2009, 16:22
The problem with lumping the unaligned legions and the black legion together is that black legion makes extensive use of several units (any of the cult units) and several upgrades (aligned marks available to almost any unit), that none of the unaligned units use at all. It's not a matter of 'iron warriors use more obliterators and night lords use more raptors, and black legion use some of both; it's a matter of 'Black Legion use thousand sons and berzerkers and noise marines and plague marines and everyone else uses none.'

Spinning the cults out into side books would either mean Black Legion losing access to marks and cult units, or it would mean a book with several units an options that only one subgroup of that codex would ever use. Leaving those units in would also mean having yet more models in the game that have one set of rules when you play against Joe, and a different set of rules when you play against Sally.

Warforger
14-02-2009, 16:23
Razial: Using your logic DA don't really need a codex either.

I would vote for word bearers or world eaters, but since Khorne is the Gulliman of Chaos, it would probably be World Eaters (I mean seriously, he's the only god with plastic cult troops :D)

malisteen
14-02-2009, 16:36
All members of the Thousand Sons Legion are either Rubrics or Sorcerers, therefore all subsequent recruits to the Legion must be sorcerers. :p

On the off chance this was serious:

While all the original Thousand Sons that remain are certainly rubrics or sorcerers, are you honestly telling me that the thousand sons refuse to employ cultists, mutants, or post-heresy traitors? That they would rather expose valuable sorcerers to the bulk of enemy forces? Original Legion members really only make sense as the elite core at the top of a much broader chaos force. I have always fealt that forces like the Lost and the Damned or the Vrakks defenders were a much better representation of the forces of chaos, and presented a much more interesting option for a game already overrun with power armor. I'd like to see some of that addressed in any new Chaos Codex, whether they devide alignments and legions or not.


Of course all-marine, even all-legion member armies should be provided for as an option for those who want to play that. As an analogy, look at fantasy chaos, with their chaos warriors and chaos marauders. You can have an entire army in chaos armor if you want, the list provides for the option, but the general assumption in both rules and fluff is that chaos armored models will provide the hardened core of an army of marauders. The fantasy chaos book, as much as the current loyalist book, exemplifies design concepts that I would love to see implemented in the next chaos codex.

DhaosAndy
14-02-2009, 18:20
malisteen:

"On the off chance this was serious:

While all the original Thousand Sons that remain are certainly rubrics or sorcerers, are you honestly telling me that the thousand sons refuse to employ cultists, mutants, or post-heresy traitors? That they would rather expose valuable sorcerers to the bulk of enemy forces? Original Legion members really only make sense as the elite core at the top of a much broader chaos force."

Deadly serious old boy, I would never be flippant around Grand Master Raziel :evilgrin:

By the way, I'm not suggesting that they don't use, cultists, mutants, and/or post-heresy traitors, not to mention tzaangor and thrall wizard bands, etc. I'm sure they do, I'm equally sure they don't induct them into the Thousand Sons Legion (excepting the most talented of the thrall wizards). So in an Epic scale action a pure Thousand Sons Legion force is unlikely, however in the small actions portrayed in 40k a pure legion force is perfectly logical.

zendral
14-02-2009, 19:30
Actually, GW must think that the sons do take to the battlefield en masse enough to justify an entire army list dedicated to them in EPIC.

sorcerer cabals
sorcerer lord
thrall wizards (I would like to see them do something like Battle for Middle Earth 2, Angmar faction)
Rubric termies
thousand sons
disc riders
deceiver-(tzeentch defiler)
landraider, pred
silver towers, warp palace
doomwing and firelord flyers
Daemons
plus more....

Plenty of stuff to justify them in 40k.

malisteen
14-02-2009, 19:38
I'm not saying it shouldn't be possible. I'd find a 40k codex meant to include the Thousand Sons (whether cult specific or a unified book) that didn't let you field Rubric Marines as a troops choice, and didn't have some support for cult units outside of that (I'd be satisfied with cult heroes and terminators, but I know others disagree), to be a failure. Just as I'd find a fantasy chaos army book that didn't allow an entire army of chaos warriors to be a failure. But I don't think that should be the assumption of the fluff, and I don't think it should be the assumption of the rules, either.

If the Thousand Sons, just like every other chaos marine force (legion, renegade, or otherwise), make extensive use of cultists, mutants, and traitors, then I think such should be available in the 40k setting. And if such things form the greater bulk of the armies they throw at the imperium, as they always seem to in the fluff, then I think such should be a troops choice within the Codex. There simply aren't any chaos factions that I know of that refuse to amass hordes of lesser traitors and throw them at their enemies en masse in any engagement of significant scale. Rubric marines are employed by the Thousand Sons and the Black Legion. Banished sorcerers with rubric marine retinues might attach themselves to any number of Legion or Renegade forces in pursuing their own agendas, but are generally not considered to be a regular part of any chaos army outside of the TS and maybe BL. Yet, cultists/traitors/mutants are considered a regular part of any Legion army. Sure they aren't 'official, honorary, dues paying, stock-holding Legion members', but that doesn't stop them from being a fundamental part of the Legion armies, and one that I hope they give some real attention to, regardless of whether they follow a unified or split codex design philosophy.

malisteen
14-02-2009, 19:54
Actually, GW must think that the sons do take to the battlefield en masse enough to justify an entire army list dedicated to them in EPIC.

sorcerer cabals
About the only unit I see that would require a Tzeench Codex, but still be a reasonable addition to 40k.


sorcerer lord
And this can't be a chaos lord upgrade?


thrall wizards (I would like to see them do something like Battle for Middle Earth 2, Angmar faction)
Couldn't this be a tzeentch-only upgrade for a Chaos Lord?


Rubric termies
I agree that any codex that pretends to cover 1k sons should have these. That said, I don't think it would require a whole separate codex to include them.


thousand sons
As with Rubric Terminators.


disc riders
I admit I've never heard of these, so I can't say whether I think they could easily be fit in a combined chaos codex, or how necessary they would be to conveying 1ksons on a 40k scale. What are they?


deceiver-(tzeentch defiler)
I agree that there should be aligned upgrade options for chaos vehicles. I don't see why that would require a separate codex, though.


landraider, pred
Again, doesn't require a separate codex.


silver towers, warp palace
doomwing and firelord flyers
Fliers and superheavy vehicles that are already covered in apocalypse rules and wouldn't be in a 40k codex, combined or otherwise, anyway.


Daemons
I agree that some recognition of aligned daemons is essential if you're going to have them in a chaos marine codex at all. I'd buy a 'summoned daemons aren't fully manifested, since daemons can only truely exist in the warp and summoning daemons doesn't create a warp/realspace overlap' explanation for lesser daemons being weaker then their full versions, or even sharing a basic statline. But they should at least be markable if your going to do that, and I'm not convinced that you couldn't put separate versions of at least the lesser daemons in a combined codex. They have always done so before 4e without issue.


Plenty of stuff to justify them in 40k.
I only see two units that might be 40k appropriate: sorcerer cabals and whatever 'disk riders' are, that might require a whole separate codex for Thousand Sons. Otherwise, the list you gave me sounds extremely narrow for an Epic army, but then again I don't know what standards Epic judges 'variety' by. And I still see a lack of cultists and other lesser traitors which always seem to make up the majority of the forces of chaos in any of the current-setting chaos fluff.

adreal
14-02-2009, 22:56
Malisteen.....I think we're all on the same side, but agrueing for idea's on implimenting it.....correct me if I'm wrong, we all want a new chaos codex, your idea (see below)should work, others want a individual codex, which would pretty much be your idea, just without the undivided other god's units.....


While we're wishlisting/discussing what we think chaos codeces 'should' be....


As I've mentioned, if it were just what I'd prefer, I'd rather have all the chaos marines in a single book, but one made in the spirit of the new loyalist book - ie, that special rules, units, equipment, and options are a good thing, and worth the space they take to include. I mean, the Loyalist book's actual army list is 15 pages long, with 2 to 5 entries per page depending on how many options they require (special characters and most vehicles require few, elite units generally require many, etc). I think a good chaos army list could fit in that, including:

Page 1: Special HQ (Abby, Huron, Bile, Cypher)
Page 2: Special HQ (Kharn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus)
Page 3: Special HQ (IW, AL, WB, NL)
Page 4: Generic HQ (Prince, Lord; with sorcerer and cult upgrades for both)
Page 5: Elites (Undivided Cult termies & vets)
Page 6: Elites (Khorne Cult termies & zerkers)
Page 7: Elites (Tzeentch Cult termies & sons)
Page 8: Elites (Slaaneshi Cult termies & noise marines)
Page 9: Elites (Nurgle Cult termies & plague marines)
Page 10: Elites (Possessed, Dreadnought; also rhino transport)
Page 11: Troops (Chaos Marines, Cultists, and mutant hordes)
Page 12: Fast Attack (Raptors, Bikes, & mini defiler/chaos sentinels)
Page 13: Heavy Support (Oblits, Havocs, Defiler)
Page 14: Heavy Support (Land Raider, Vindicator, Predator, maybe something new)
Page 15: Summoned Daemons (0-1 Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons)

Special Rules: terminators can only be taken in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Power armored Cult/Vet units become troops choices in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Vehicles can have aligned options if the army includes an HQ with the appropriate mark (including a decent 'undivided' upgrade, and sonic weapons for slaaneshi marked vehicles). Chosen and generic terminators would be upgraded to a cult of their own, and would always be undivided. Cults in general would be made more expensive, and more elite (high Ws/Bs, fearless, etc) - this would make them actually feel like the veterans of 10,000 years of war, would cement them as the elites of the Legions while the bulk is provided by lesser servants fo chaos. It would ensure that the normal troops choices remain the most points efficient and attractive for that reason, but would allow purist 'original legion members only' armies for those who wanted such.

The army would include 'favor (or disfavor) of the gods' rules similar in concept to fantasy chaos mortals. Special characters would upgrade and restrict their armies in various ways fitting their gimmicks (Abaddon has all the marks, making all cult units troops, and might have a rule upgrading an attached unit of undivided termies; AL SC would give undivided vets the infiltrate rule; Cypher lets you replace 'fearless' with 'atsknf' for undivided vets & termies, etc). SCs in general would specifically reward you for taking units that match their mark, or prevent you from taking other marks outright, depending on their nature.


Add in some more options in the units themselves, and I think you would have a list capable of reasonably representing any of the chaos legions, as well as non-Legion chaos forces. You could even do a passing imitation of LatD. An EC list from such a codex could have:

SC: Lucius
HQ: Slaaneshi prince or Lord
Elite: Cult Terminators, Slaaneshii Possessed, Sonic Dred
Troops: Noise Marines, Slaaneshii CSMs, slaaneshii cultists, slaaneshii mutants
Fast: Slaaneshii Bikes (probably not sonic, though), sonic mini-defilers
Heavy: Slaaneshii Havocs (probably not sonic), sonic tanks
Non-choice: Slaaneshii summoned daemons, not as strong as daemonic legion slaaneshii versions due to the summoning/binding rituals, but still distinctly slaaneshii rather then generic

And it could do that without having to resort to sub-lists or variant codeces.

Heck, you could make lucious' gimmick allowing sonic upgrades on non-cult slaaneshii units, which would then allow sonic bikes and havocs without having to devote space to it in the bike or havoc entries. Sure, some might complain about having to take a special character for the 'full version' of their army, but that's just sorta how its done right now, and the theme would still be workable without.

See this would work, and for 1K sons ahriman might alow rubic havocs or chosen to become lesser sorcs (like the unit champions for 1K sons). I don't see how this wouldbe a problem, and GW could give us the codex size (see C:SM) to be able to do this.

Grand Master Raziel
14-02-2009, 23:23
While we're wishing though, I'll tell you what I really don't want. I don't want the CSM version of the current SM dex, all that special character 'X' unlocks option 'Y' nonsense, yuk. I'd sooner persist with the current dross than put up with, say, Ahriman as the new Eldrad.


Great Googley-Moogely, I agree with DhaosAndy on something. I feel lightheaded...:p Seriously though, I'm not crazy about that particular setup, either. I don't think anybody is. Be a long time before we see if GW backs off of it, though.


The problem with lumping the unaligned legions and the black legion together is that black legion makes extensive use of several units (any of the cult units) and several upgrades (aligned marks available to almost any unit), that none of the unaligned units use at all. It's not a matter of 'iron warriors use more obliterators and night lords use more raptors, and black legion use some of both; it's a matter of 'Black Legion use thousand sons and berzerkers and noise marines and plague marines and everyone else uses none.'

I really don't see that as a major problem. Players of the Undivided Legions who are not playing BL can just exercise a little self-control and not take the Cult units if they're inappropriate in their armies. Just because you can do something does not mean you have to. The bog-standard CSM is a fantastic trooper, and there's enough variety in the CSM army list that you're not exactly suffering if you don't take the Cult troops.


Razial: Using your logic DA don't really need a codex either.

ZOMG:wtf:!!!!111!!1!!1! How dare you suggest such a thing!!!! DA are totally different from Utramarines!!!! Heretic!!!!..... Just kidding. That topic's been kicked around on other threads. The short version of my opinion is that DA and BA armies could be covered just fine in Codex: Space Marines, but if you're hot to discuss that, you can check out one of the threads where that's the topic of conversation.


I have always fealt that forces like the Lost and the Damned or the Vrakks defenders were a much better representation of the forces of chaos, and presented a much more interesting option for a game already overrun with power armor.

There's a good point. The system needs a set of rules for mutants and traitor Guard far more than it needs Legion dexes. You can make a Legion list with the current dex and have it be backed by a legal set of rules - it may not portray that Legion exactly as some would wish, but it can be done. If you want to play a mutant/traitor Guard force, however, you either have to use an outdated and no longer GW-backed set of rules (the LatD list from the Eye of Terror campaign book) or you have to get really creative with some other book (or set of books), making do without a lot of what makes Chaos Chaos.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-02-2009, 23:41
I really don't see that as a major problem. Players of the Undivided Legions who are not playing BL can just exercise a little self-control and not take the Cult units if they're inappropriate in their armies. Just because you can do something does not mean you have to. The bog-standard CSM is a fantastic trooper, and there's enough variety in the CSM army list that you're not exactly suffering if you don't take the Cult troops.

Yeah, troops for undivided legions are not the problem of chaos codex. I even have to say that i like bog-standard chaos space marines.

True problem lies elaswhere:
-marks dont work as they should.
-some non-troops units are too good or too crappy, which leads to similiar competetive army lists.

Especialy the second argument is hard to swallow for chaos undivided followers.

Heh, why dont they make it like Codex: Orks ...

zendral
14-02-2009, 23:43
And this can't be a chaos lord upgrade?
I would like to see a slight stat change. Maybe one less attack and WS than the chaos lord.


Couldn't this be a tzeentch-only upgrade for a Chaos Lord?
whosawhatsit? I take it you never played battle for middle earth 2: rise of the witch king? The same concept for the wizard band works perfectly for the sons. Basically you get an aspiring thrall(like the recruiting scout process for the marines), whom is surrounded by rabble/henchmen/traitor guard. The thrall can sacrifice X rabble to cast spells. It would be a perfect thousand son version of cultists.


I admit I've never heard of these, so I can't say whether I think they could easily be fit in a combined chaos codex, or how necessary they would be to conveying 1ksons on a 40k scale. What are they?
Have been around for awhile. The Horus Heresy:collected visions has a wonderful updated pic of what they look like. Before the rubric was cast, they were sons riding discs of tzeentch. A more updated version would see sorcerer's riding them. A thousand son F.A. choice obviously.


I agree that there should be aligned upgrade options for chaos vehicles. I don't see why that would require a separate codex, though.
The imagination is the only limitation. See below.


Again, doesn't require a separate codex.
Could say the same about space wolves, DA, and BA, but alas, they are here to stay due to popular demand. Not saying they(BA,DA,SW,BT) should have been done (or the traitor legion books), but rather due to popular demand, we have them.


Fliers and superheavy vehicles that are already covered in apocalypse rules and wouldn't be in a 40k codex, combined or otherwise, anyway.
Indeed, but like the IG valkarie it would not be far-fetched to throw in the doomwing as a skimmer.



I agree that some recognition of aligned daemons is essential if you're going to have them in a chaos marine codex at all. I'd buy a 'summoned daemons aren't fully manifested, since daemons can only truely exist in the warp and summoning daemons doesn't create a warp/realspace overlap' explanation for lesser daemons being weaker then their full versions, or even sharing a basic statline. But they should at least be markable if your going to do that, and I'm not convinced that you couldn't put separate versions of at least the lesser daemons in a combined codex. They have always done so before 4e without issue.
agreed


I only see two units that might be 40k appropriate: sorcerer cabals and whatever 'disk riders' are, that might require a whole separate codex for Thousand Sons. Otherwise, the list you gave me sounds extremely narrow for an Epic army, but then again I don't know what standards Epic judges 'variety' by. And I still see a lack of cultists and other lesser traitors which always seem to make up the majority of the forces of chaos in any of the current-setting chaos fluff.

Indeed the list should not stop there. As mentioned the imagination is the only limiting factor. It would seem to me that most legion fans would like to see: cult termies, cult dread, cult land raider, cult, cult, cult of the same stuff. That would be very boring, but the base for each cult should be the groundwork for an expanded list of new abilities and units...not the entire list itself.
Once upon a time I toyed with how to make my own son codex. I included new warmachines and units that were not just: landraider with mark of Tzeentch. I designed small version of the silver towers...floating obilisks and such. Different type's of sorcerer war machines like a magical totem manned by two sorcerers that acted like an artillary unit. The potential to expand for each legion is staggering IF you dive headfirst in all the fluff for each respective legion. You'll find that we can do so much more than add cult mark X to existing unit Y. Many chaos apocolypse units we see today are nothing new....but rather "dusted off" versions of chaos units that have been around, but not included in the last few chaos codexi. Bell of lost souls are big on it.

Personally, the only thing I think that should be consistant throughout the legions books is the inclusion of the land raider, dread, predator, power armor, terminator armor, and rhino. Baring legion upgrades/rules, these should be the only items that are roughly the same.

As of now, you can put the BA and DA book side-by-side and say: "units are roughly the same....a few snazzy chapter rules...same land raider, same predator, blah blah...okay". Assuming you do it right, you should be able to slap the world eaters book and thousand sons book side-by-side and say: "wow..the only real thing they share is some power armor". Afterall....years spent in the warp without any restrictions (like the codex astartes) SHOULD see major changes in army composition and style.

OT: Thousand Sons..derrrrr:D;)

Warforger
15-02-2009, 06:52
Well me personally could see in the future Codex:Chaos Space Marines turning into Codex:Black Legion and friends like C:SM(aka Codex:UM and friends)

Like I said, if anyone its probably going to be World Eaters due to the massive fan base and GW favoritism.

malisteen
15-02-2009, 15:03
I guess I have three main concerns:

First, I don't think there are enough chaos players to justify five or six Chaos books. Loyalist marines sell as much as everything else in 40k put together, and can justify multiple codeces that are practically identical barring a couple special rules, a couple special characters, and maybe one unique unit (I'm looking at you blood angels and dark angels; at least the space wolves and black templar don't template to the generic marine book on a unit per unit basis). Chaos Don't. And if you thought unifying the Legions under a single army list was hard after 3.5, imagine what it would be like if business realities forced them to consolidate all the chaos marines into a single book after two or three dedicated aligned books, each with many more new units for players to buy or convert that simply could not be fit together.

Second, I don't like having the same units in multiple codeces (berzerkers in the world eaters book and in the regular chaos marine book; bloodletters in the world eaters book and the daemon book, etc), as it inevitably leads to the same model having different sets of rules depending on who is playing it against you. Sure, this is already a problem with some units and equipment in the game, but it will only get worse by running the chaos book through a prism.

Third, the Unaligned chaos forces (ie, dedicated non-cult) are at least as different from mixed-mark forces as any single mark force is, so why should world eaters get a separate list from Black Legion when Alpha Legion doesn't? You could argue the same 'year of separation' fluff justification for alpha legion.


I also have some minor concerns. Chief among them is that a focus on 'Legions' would mean a focus on the heresy, meaning yet another chaos codex that seems designed to represent heresy era traitor armies, not the chaos hordes of the 41st millenium. Practically all of the modern setting fluff involves hordes of mutants, cultists, and traitor guard led by a few terrifying ancient chaos marines. That structure simply makes sense, given the thousands of years that have passed since the heresy, the inevitably attrition of ten thousand years of warfare, and the difficulty in creating new chaos marines. Full marine lists, even full legion lists, should be provided for in the rules. But the default assumption of the fluff and the army lists, whether world eaters, iron warriors, or red corsairs, should be mutants and cultists led by marines.

Another minor concern is that releasing four separate aligned codeces will delay the next version of the chaos marine book by as much as four years. I can't play with that thing. It's boring. It's broken. It's full of obvious choices (whether 'take this' or 'don't take that'). It does a poor job of representing any chaos army, even the ones that it has most of the appropriate units for. I don't want to have to sit out of regular games of 40k for an extra third of a decade just so they can print a bunch of codeces that will have so little support they'll have to be scrapped, anyway. I guess this one is a bit more selfish a reason then the others, but it's still only one reason among many.

Atheist
15-02-2009, 17:37
I have voted for the Iron Warriors because , well , it me army of choice and I feel I should stick by my choice and support it . :)

However , I should point out that even though I feel that the undivided legions deserve a codex , I strongly believe that the cult Legions *NEED* a codex , in order to be accurately portrayed in the game .

For example , with the current Codex and 5th edition rules , Who would want his World Eaters Terminator Lord to get massacred in the sweeping advance of a lost battle just because his "Codex Renegades " alternative for World Eaters cannot ever be fearless ?

Furthermore we all have seen that the Chapter specific rules are still in the game for the Imperial Marines , and I am not talking just about the Chapter Specific Codexes , but for the main Codex as well .

So I will complain in yet another thread about the loss ( with no immediate plans for replacement ) of the Chaos Legions .

This is no surprise , eh ?

Yes , every Chaos players whines , and every Iron Warriors player is a filthy powerplaying monster bent on devouring the balanced gameplay of warhammer 40k , fielding beardy lists . Ok , as long as claiming this makes you feel any better , fine by me . I actually don't care . I want Chaos Space Marine Legions , simple as that .

Hell , they even sell the story of the Chaos Legions , yet they chop them off the game ?

Tyron
15-02-2009, 17:56
Interesting how the discussion has turned towards Thousand Sons, which is good as they are one of the Legions I have nearly finished so all good.

I know many people here believe non cult lists would be carbon copies but they wouldn’t be, they would share the some infantry units and tanks but the rest would be different. The play style of each Legion would be different from the others.

For Thousand Sons they have 10 powers to choose from and their units work differently enabling the player to have a unique style of play. They wouldn’t be the easiest army to play as you would really need to think what to do as they rely on constantly teleporting their troops around and being low numbers would have to use their spells wisely avoiding certain units and using guile and deceit as their tactics as said in their fluff.

As for the Death Guard expect some nice changes too, which should be ready on the 25th (hopefully).

Ubermensch Commander
15-02-2009, 18:00
I have voted for the Iron Warriors because , well , it me army of choice and I feel I should stick by my choice and support it . :)

However , I should point out that even though I feel that the undivided legions deserve a codex , I strongly believe that the cult Legions *NEED* a codex , in order to be accurately portrayed in the game .

For example , with the current Codex and 5th edition rules , Who would want his World Eaters Terminator Lord to get massacred in the sweeping advance of a lost battle just because his "Codex Renegades " alternative for World Eaters cannot ever be fearless ?

Furthermore we all have seen that the Chapter specific rules are still in the game for the Imperial Marines , and I am not talking just about the Chapter Specific Codexes , but for the main Codex as well .

So I will complain in yet another thread about the loss ( with no immediate plans for replacement ) of the Chaos Legions .

This is no surprise , eh ?

Yes , every Chaos players whines , and every Iron Warriors player is a filthy powerplaying monster bent on devouring the balanced gameplay of warhammer 40k , fielding beardy lists . Ok , as long as claiming this makes you feel any better , fine by me . I actually don't care . I want Chaos Space Marine Legions , simple as that .

Hell , they even sell the story of the Chaos Legions , yet they chop them off the game ?

They did not chop them off the game, anymore than they chopped craftworlds or Salamanders out of the game. Salamanders used to have a seperate list in Codex Armageddon. This went the way o the dino in the 4th edition codex. Then they changed it again with the 5th edition Space Marine codex. Are you going to say that they cut the Salamanders out of the game? Following your logic for Chaos Legions, which is that when the rules set/trend changed from prescriptive lists to large universal lists the specific factions can longer be represented, you would somewhat be forced to. Yet, someohow, no one has cried in outrage over this fact...probably because we realize that rulesets change and you can still make the factions on the 40K scale. Now at an Epic level or Apocalypse level....who can say?
You just have a single codices to run all the chaos forces...same as Tyranids, Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Orks. All of which are arguably more diverse entities than the Chaos Legions.

O&G'sRule
15-02-2009, 21:41
Thousand sons without question, They're by far the most interesting as they are the most unique of the marines, also they haven't changed since they turned to chaos, so the models should be very old looking ornate armour making for very interesting models. Effectively another undead army really and I'd be fascinated with how GW make the army balanced. Night Lords are very interesting background wise, but would work pretty much like white scars. Noise marines would be a good second choice, lots of scope for weird and wonderful weapons there.

ChaosReigns
15-02-2009, 22:17
I'm curious to see where your project goes Tyron, tell us when you've posted your rules. :)

As for what GW should do, I agree with malisteen, just update the singular codex and do a better job with it. They need to make a codex that fully explores the vile majesty and diversity of the armies of the Dark Gods. Above all they need to not be so minimalist.

However, I would like to add one thing to your list malisteen, instead of having special characters shuffle the force organization chart and confer special rules, allow generic commanders the option to buy an upgrade and do as such. For example "World Eaters Lord" as an upgrade for HQ choices with the Mark of Khorne which allows Berzerkers to take bikes and become fast attack choices or take terminator armour and become elites and so forth. Perhaps upgrades like this could also confer army wide special rules (like Blood Frenzy for the World Eaters Lord). These upgrades should really be limited to one per army however, because otherwise you'll just get people mixing and matching bonuses to make the ultimate ********* legion where Emperor's Children and World Eaters happily trot into battle together and Thousand Sons and Death Guard are actually the best of friends (albeit secretly).

If the player wants to mix and match they can take the "Black Legion Lord" where getting all of the cult troops together without restrictions or penalties (but also without any special options or gear afforded to them by specialized lords) is what he brings to the table.

Now, if GW is hell bent on doing Legion codexes they should do one codex for Undivided Legions and one for Cult Legions. In any case I'd like to see them play to the ten thousand year-old veterans theme, make the Legionary forces even more elite and fewer in number than standard Space Marines to give them that "ancient terror" feel. Also, GW, include cultists and mutants because they're cool and you refuse to do a proper Lost and the Damned codex.

malisteen
16-02-2009, 01:52
Again, my take would include cult units and cult terminator units in the army as elites, with the restriction that cult terminators could only be taken if your army includes at least one hero sharing their mark, and the regular cult squads would become troops if you had a hero sharing their mark. Mind, this is any hero; special or otherwise.

Special characters might add some special rules (alpha legion hero for infiltrating vets, night lords hero for scoring bikes, etc), but the general army structure would be available with only generic heroes.


My way wouldn't provide for other cult specialists, it's true. I don't think world eaters bikers or thousand sons disk riders or the like would really fit in a combined codex. But since I don't think five seperate chaos marine codeces are a viable long term option, I'm not convinced there's a 40k alternative.


Now, I wouldn't mind seeing forgeworld support for cult or legion specific armies, a la the seige of vraks and other Forgeworld army lists. I actually think that would be a great way to do it. I wouldn't want to see it as a GW codex, but I'd love to see such as forgeworld projects- I do think there's enough support for something like that. Something that didn't delay codeces for other armies. In that case I suppose I'd like to see Thousand Sons first. :)

ChaosReigns
17-02-2009, 00:08
Yep, I understand, but what I'm saying is that I'd like to see generic commanders be able to give out Legionary bonuses to their army with an upgrade, so that you can play any Legion on any points scale even if your special character is sub-par. It would also be nice to see a system in place so that one cannot just mash together different bonuses to get the most uber combo legion.

If the relevant special characters give said bonuses as well, that's fine, for example Abaddon counting as having the Black Legion Lord upgrade. However, I don't think that forcing players to rely on special characters to play their favourite sub-faction is a particularly good idea. This is especially the case as four of the seven Chaos Marine special characters are considered renegades (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman, Typhus) and so therefore their forces are probably not the bog-standard of their Legion

It would also be possible, theoretically speaking, to have a "Renegade Lord" who's troops can be equipped with more modern gear. That would effectively take care of representing renegades in the book.

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 00:14
They did not chop them off the game, anymore than they chopped craftworlds or Salamanders out of the game. Salamanders used to have a seperate list in Codex Armageddon. This went the way o the dino in the 4th edition codex. Then they changed it again with the 5th edition Space Marine codex. Are you going to say that they cut the Salamanders out of the game? No, Salamanders got an amazing special character that gives tons of army bonuses.

Iron Warriors, along with all the other Legions, got nothing of the sort.


Following your logic for Chaos Legions, which is that when the rules set/trend changed from prescriptive lists to large universal lists the specific factions can longer be represented, you would somewhat be forced to. Yet, someohow, no one has cried in outrage over this fact...probably because we realize that rulesets change and you can still make the factions on the 40K scale. Now at an Epic level or Apocalypse level....who can say?
You just have a single codices to run all the chaos forces...same as Tyranids, Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Orks. All of which are arguably more diverse entities than the Chaos Legions.
Wait, more diverse than the embodiment of what is fundamentally *chaotic*?

While I agree on a couple of those counts, I don't think Eldar or Tyranids are going to have more diverse "armies" than the mightiest armies of Chaos.

The Chaos legions differ from each other far more than any of the loyalist chapters do, and many of them have their own books. Asking for one or two books to portray vastly more differentiated forces from those isn't all that out of the question I would say.

Desalbert
17-02-2009, 00:15
I don't play Chaos Marines, but I know a sweet looking army when I see one! Thousand Sons! Tzeentch all the way!

kane40k
17-02-2009, 00:18
i want 2 see drums for blast masters and guitars for sonic blasters and insane vocal mics for flamers (sounds like a good gig:))

Atheist
17-02-2009, 00:19
Hey Vaktathi , they don't call you beardy , they actually answer , how do you do that ?

:p

Ubermensch Commander
17-02-2009, 01:28
No, Salamanders got an amazing special character that gives tons of army bonuses.

Iron Warriors, along with all the other Legions, got nothing of the sort.

Well considering the Iron Warriors only lost a Basilisk not a big deal. And can now take more than one vindicator. And now have access to berserkers again, like in their IA article. Was the IA article "less" Iron Warriors like than the 3.5 codex?
In addition, the Salamanders special character is not limited to Salamanders. Can be put count as into any army.
Also, I can make a Salamanders army without a prescriptive sublist or an SC.
So can the Iron Warriors/any Chaos.

Yes, the Salamanders to not have two special weapons per squad anymore. Does not mean it is not a Salamanders army.
The Salamanders no longer have I3 or free Thunder Hammers on Chaplains.
Are they no longer Salamanders because they do not have their own sublist/special rules? No.

Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Legions, Ork Klans, IG Regiments, and Chapters can all be made using the current stuff.

Moving on.

*Quote which did not seem to want to quote by Vaktathi*
Wait, more diverse than the embodiment of what is fundamentally *chaotic*?

While I agree on a couple of those counts, I don't think Eldar or Tyranids are going to have more diverse "armies" than the mightiest armies of Chaos.

The Chaos legions differ from each other far more than any of the loyalist chapters do, and many of them have their own books. Asking for one or two books to portray vastly more differentiated forces from those isn't all that out of the question I would say.
*end quote*

Wait, Chaos Legions differing more than Craftworlders or Tyranids?

I am gonna have to call shenanigans on that one. I know you want to see Legion rules put in...but honestly?
While CHAOS may be diverse, the Legions are not. They all have the same equipment, the same training, and come from the same martial tradtion/army. They are NOT vastly different. Most of the differences on a tactical level, not an equipment level.
Or a strategic one (Night Lords nuking a planet and terrifying a populace) which cannot be adequately reperesented in the tactical level of 40K.

adreal
17-02-2009, 01:45
Not to attack you Ubermensch, but what other legion uses anything liek a sonic blaster, or a doom siren?

Apart from death guard what other legin uses poisons on thier weapons?

these are not tactical differences. Now yes a legion can be done 'right' with this codex (liberal use of counts as) but if I want drugged up close combat freaks in my emperor's children, I have three choices. 1. CC noise marine sqaud, which is reall no better then a basic CC marine squad with icon of slaanesh. 2. A fabius bile basic marine squad (which I don't have a problem with, and it suits EC well, just wish I could get those units without fabius) 3. Khorne Beserkers (the liberal use of counts as).

I don't have a problem doing this, but it does feel wrong, EC should be able to add drugs to a unit without fabius' help. But that shouldn't be an option for say.....thousand sons, so to do something like this, I'de need a seperate codex. I'm happy with a redone codex when GW get around to it, but if they decide the legions need thier own dex's, I wont complain.

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 02:22
Well considering the Iron Warriors only lost a Basilisk not a big deal. They lost servo-arms, expanded FoC slots, Siege Masters vet skill, etc.

While I'm not saying they should have the 4 HS again, I'm pointing out they lost more than just bassies.



And now have access to berserkers again, like in their IA article. Was the IA article "less" Iron Warriors like than the 3.5 codex? No, and that's one thing I think they should have included in the 3.5 codex, but that's also in the past.



In addition, the Salamanders special character is not limited to Salamanders. Can be put count as into any army. Yes, but I also personally find that to be very...silly to put it nicely.



Also, I can make a Salamanders army without a prescriptive sublist or an SC.
So can the Iron Warriors/any Chaos. Sure, but they were a whole lot more interesting with their own lists.



Yes, the Salamanders to not have two special weapons per squad anymore. Does not mean it is not a Salamanders army.
The Salamanders no longer have I3 or free Thunder Hammers on Chaplains.
Are they no longer Salamanders because they do not have their own sublist/special rules? No. No, but they aren't as interesting either.



Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Legions, Ork Klans, IG Regiments, and Chapters can all be made using the current stuff. to varying degrees. It's *much* harder to do the Cult legions correctly, the Icon system is naff.




Wait, Chaos Legions differing more than Craftworlders or Tyranids?

I am gonna have to call shenanigans on that one. I know you want to see Legion rules put in...but honestly?
While CHAOS may be diverse, the Legions are not. They all have the same equipment, the same training, and come from the same martial tradtion/army. They are NOT vastly different. Most of the differences on a tactical level, not an equipment level.
Or a strategic one (Night Lords nuking a planet and terrifying a populace) which cannot be adequately reperesented in the tactical level of 40K.

Iron Warriors favor heavy weapons, extended sieges, and artillery. They employ significant numbers of obliterators, terminators, tanks, siege engines and many IG vehicles.

Black Legion employ SM's from all cults, but favor short range combat and rapid assaults.

World Eaters are all about getting to hand to hand combat and spilling blood.

Emperors Children have substantially different equipment than other legions and operate much differently.

Death Guard are all about spreading contagion and decay. They fight primarily as an infantry based army with a reliance on close range firefights over heavy weapons and vehicles.

Alpha Legion infiltrate after establishing cult rings to instigate uprisings and provide foot soldiers, and quickly go after enemy command elements.

Night Lords favor terror and rapid strikes, spending great effort to demoralize their target before enacting surgical strikes to decapitate and opponent before settling into long slaughter.

Thousand Sons are all about sorcery and misdirection, appearing randomly and disappearing just as quickly

etc...

Compared to the Eldar, they are far more varied in fighting styles and organization. The Eldar favor different mixes of common units. You might find more Guardians in an Ulthwe army, but they still employ Dire Avengers and such still operate the same way they do on other craftworlds. You won't find Noise Marines in a Word Bearers army. You won't find the Iron Warriors heavy artillery in a World Eaters or Black Legion army.

Napoleon Blownapart
17-02-2009, 02:24
Alpha Legion is easily the most difficult to represent with the chaos codex( so I use the loyalist one) so if GW was going that direction Alpha Legion would merit it most.

1201307
17-02-2009, 05:12
Whats so hard about representing the Alpha Legion in the new codex? take some chosen and your set. Sure you dont have cultists, but they should never have been alpha legion exclusive anyway, all legions have been mentioned as using them. and having an entire army infiltrating was a little over the top in my opinion.

I do feel the cult legions need a codex, but thats only because of the current icon system.

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-02-2009, 06:14
None.

Screw multiple Legion Codices. We've seen from the new SM Codex that GW can at least make a decent attempt at representing varied armies in one book. They can do this with Chaos.

In fact, scrap the 5th ed. SM Codex too. Just because a) Ultrafap and b) Chapter differences being locked into special characters. Make a new one, have UM as the focus but not the whole book, and incorporate the more Codex Chapters into it. Hell, there's probably a way to make Black Templars fit. Not Space Wolves though. Also make Chapter Tactics an item able to be bought for HQs.

Same deal for Chaos Codex. Focus on the Legions, please, renegades can gb2C:SM.

Then come out with LatD.

But before all this, Dark Eldar.


Keep poling please this is important! ;)

A poll representing a minority of 40k players on a forum that GW doesn't even bother to keep tabs on.

Serious business.

Corax
17-02-2009, 08:52
Imperialis_Dominatus has pretty much summed up my views on this subject. Special books for Chaos legions are a indulgence that shouldn't even be considered until after all the main armies have been given a full 5th ed update - starting with DE.

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 09:07
Imperialis_Dominatus has pretty much summed up my views on this subject. Special books for Chaos legions are a indulgence that shouldn't even be considered until after all the main armies have been given a full 5th ed update - starting with DE.

I don't think most people would disagree.

but seeing that a Legions book does have some demand, it's interesting to see what legions people are most interested in if/when such a book does come out.

Wiseman
17-02-2009, 10:42
Have to say Thousand Sons, just love their army, and if they ever have plastics, I would be first in line.

Hoarmurel
18-02-2009, 20:46
Of course, i must say Thousand Sons.

I think that the TS has been "ignored" by GW in the last codexes. They always have not well balanced rules, expensive points cost etc.

Besides this, i must say that if GW launch plastic TS, i will buy again a 2000 or + points, so here gw can make a happy customer that will spend a lot of money :D

Corax
19-02-2009, 10:43
I think that the TS has been "ignored" by GW in the last codexes. They always have not well balanced rules, expensive points cost etc.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

3+ Sv, 4+ Inv. Sv, AP3 Bolters isn't enough for you?!

What else do you want? 2 wounds as well?! AND Fleet?!

Yeesh... Some people are never happy...

Askari
19-02-2009, 11:30
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

3+ Sv, 4+ Inv. Sv, AP3 Bolters isn't enough for you?!

What else do you want? 2 wounds as well?! AND Fleet?!

Yeesh... Some people are never happy...

Or... y'know... decent Sorcerers...

DhaosAndy
19-02-2009, 12:38
Want? OK

Bin the 4+ inv & the AP3 bolters for the rubrics.

Bring back all is dust (2 wounds & immune to S4 shooting).

OT I know ;)

but you did ask :evilgrin:

Wraithbored
19-02-2009, 13:35
thousand sons followed by deathguard.

Darkseid
25-02-2009, 08:08
I'd like to see a Death Guard codec.

Industrial Propaganda
25-02-2009, 09:28
This is especially the case as four of the seven Chaos Marine special characters are considered renegades (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman, Typhus) and so therefore their forces are probably not the bog-standard of their Legion

That's true. Fabius is no longer with the Emperor's Children, he follows his own path. Ahriman was banned from the Thousand Sons by Magnus himself, Typhus hates Mortarion and leaved the Plague World(sp?). Khârn no longer fights for the World Eaters since Skalathrax, he even took off the shoulder pad with his Legion symbol.

If they release codex(es) for Legions, GW can bring some new Special Characters who still fight for their colours.

Brucopeloso
25-02-2009, 09:49
None.

Screw multiple Legion Codices.

None please, and scrap multiple SM codices too please!
Roll up all SM in a single codex, roll up all CSM in a single codex as well (focused on legions) and then go bananas with Adeptus mechanicus, mutants and cultists, xeno races etc. etc. but first fix the factions that need fixing like DE, necrons etc.

Just my opinion and it will never happen, but you aseked....

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-02-2009, 18:23
None please, and scrap multiple SM codices too please!
Roll up all SM in a single codex, roll up all CSM in a single codex as well (focused on legions) and then go bananas with Adeptus mechanicus, mutants and cultists, xeno races etc. etc. but first fix the factions that need fixing like DE, necrons etc.

Just my opinion and it will never happen, but you aseked....

Indeed. BA and DA can both be incorporated with ease into a SM Codex.

Black Templars would be more difficult, but their principle organizational differences are the Emperor's Champion (who used to be available to all Chapters) and the integration of Scouts and Tactical Squads. It'd be easy enough to add a rule to the Emperor's Champion saying that if he's taken, a Tactical Squad may take up to its own number in Scouts who cannot take sniper rifles and the like. There'd also have to be some rule stating that Tacs could exchange their bolters for close combat weapons.

Space Wolves would be similarly difficult, a lot more so if we insisted on keeping all their special rules. I don't even know where to begin with them. So they can have their own Codex, and perhaps Black Templars should too. But DA and BA definitely could be integrated into the Codex.

malisteen
25-02-2009, 18:51
Could templars and space pupps be rolled together somehow? Then you could have 'codex: codex space marines' and 'codex: non-codex space marines'. :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-02-2009, 04:44
Maybe. Though if SW's list gets Emperor's Champion, then I posit the other Chapters should too.

Let's compare the organizational differences:

Black Templars:
Emperor's Champion (if only done to make them more 'unique) and the Vows that go with him
Several special rules (no psykers, Morale Checks passed make them consolidate towards enemies, Fearless in assault, want to shoot closest target)
Wargear options (which everyone is losing anyway)
Crusader Squads (Neophytes included, get BP/CCW choice, LRC transport option)

Space Wolves:
Many special rules (No teleporting, Acute Senses, Preferred Enemy: DA and KSons, Counter Attack, True Grit, no modifiers for being outnumbered in assault)
Wargear (including Fenrisian Wolves) which everyone is losing, to repeat myself
Potential for HQs beyond the FOC
Wolf Priests (combine Apothecaries and Chaplains)
Ven Dreads as HQs
Wolf Guard (as Elites, Command Squads, or leaders in other squads)
Scouts in Elites with their rules
Grey Hunters can have BP/CCW
Blood Claws get large squads, oriented towards assault, and BP/CCW
Assault Squads have the same deal as Blood Claws
Small Devastator Squads able to split fire
Leman Russ Exterminator

Overall I'd say the lists are too disparate to be combined, and GW's policy is 'one list for one army for one book' as far as I can tell. I'd say they should make them separate Codices, with a way to unlock Wulfen in the SW Codex to represent 13th Great Company.

The elimination of BA and DA from the Codex lineup alone will free up some space so GW can at least catch up the rest of the armies.

Shangrila
26-02-2009, 07:08
Warsmith and an extra heavy for the win.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-02-2009, 07:19
Hooray 12 Obliterators! And an HQ with a powerfist attack that doesn't rape his Initiative completely. ;)

ChaosVC
26-02-2009, 08:47
Death Guards...I love Pus all over baby!

Lanparth
26-02-2009, 09:46
Night Lords 30 7.94%
Sons of Horus 10 2.65%

No love for the Night Lords and Black Legion it would seem ,lol