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Prokrustes
15-02-2009, 13:50
Well, I decided to start a Beasts of Chaos army not long ago even though I know that they are currently pretty screwed.
After sighting the material I could find on them, I cant get rid of the feeling that they are a bit GWs unloved children compared to most other factions except maybe Ogres (<-They have at least their own book in WFRP). After Realms of Chaos fluff for them is hard to come by and it seems to get less and less the more modern it is. Furthermore they seem to play absolutely no part in the affairs of the world, except few excerpts when people say they just got raided. They also seem to get beaten by most other factions on a very regular base and compared to mortal chaos dont feel very fleshed out. It is even sorta funny that in the newer books they just retell most but not all of the stuff from the Realms of Chaos books. I even feel, that they became uhmm..simpler in the new fluff.

Yeah, well, I am left wondering if I am the only one feeling like that or if you share my opinion, or if I am wrong altogether because I just never found "the real fluff" for them?

Furthermore, anybody knows why they are usually mentioned together with Nurgle (Nurgle Beast in the Armybook, Liber Chaotica lists them in the book of Nurgle, Realms of Chaos list them in the general Nurgle section,etc.)?Arent they the children of all chaos gods?

Braad
15-02-2009, 15:09
I think I agree with the story. Though I'm not really up to date on beastmen fluff, I do like the army and still have it planned as my second project... Maybe we will see some improvement when the new book comes out, hopefully somewhere this year.

Quetzl
15-02-2009, 15:44
The problem at the moment is that the Beasts have been completely left behind especially when Chaos got split into three. So they're the unfortunate triplet which isn't as boistrous as the others but is loved just as much. The Beasts haven't been intergrated into the fluff too much as of late, but they're still included in the art and the general theme of the whole system. I mean there's bits and bobs darted all over the place from what I can remember :)

But I'm sure it won't be long till we see them, there's a lot of indications that they'll be busting some moves at the end of this year. I personally feel that they've got a lot of fleshing out to be done, so I'm expecting some new things and perhaps a bit more focus on the idea of Minotaurs etc. It's all speculation but I reacon the Beasts are gonna be quite an exciting release in the future.

Muad'Dib
15-02-2009, 15:53
Furthermore, anybody knows why they are usually mentioned together with Nurgle (Nurgle Beast in the Armybook, Liber Chaotica lists them in the book of Nurgle, Realms of Chaos list them in the general Nurgle section,etc.)?Arent they the children of all chaos gods?

Might be due to the fact that Slaaneshi/Tzeentchian Beasts are, superficially, harder to portray. So all they are left is Khorne and Nurgle.
And Nurgle quite fits the Beasts theme - mutants, outcasts from the society. While many players often ask the question "why would a mortal follow Nurgle?", with Beasts it seems much more natural.
A shame though, Slaaneshi Beasts always seemed to have potential (especially seeing that, AFAIK, Slaanesh symbol used/is to be a cow)

Kerill
15-02-2009, 15:55
The beasts also had perhaps the coolest set of rules in 6th edition, by far Gav's best book IMO, he took brown O&G army and made them fairly unique (then later stiffed them in the FAQ). They also have a very different playstyle. Oh and the herdstone is the best warhammer site I've visited on the internet, which is cool as well.

Current rumours from playtesting btw have:
Cenitgors as cool (but chariots as special)
Chosen Bestigors
A herdstone pulled by minotaurs (warhsrine)
And a gorgon for the rares.

guillaume
15-02-2009, 16:20
Beastmen have always been there on the periphery of the warhammer story. They are just wandering vandals that live for the day, destroying and pillaging. Since beastmen are scattered across the northern Empire, there isnt a Beastmen territory to speak of, which makes them hard to pin down and develop historical fluff for.

I agree that they havent had much love, but I think, it is because of their skirmishing/wandering nature. But i also agree that if fits them well. It is nice to have an army in warhammer that is sort of loose on the prowl and will attack anything and anyone in no real formalized fashion.

After all, everyone makes ranked units (even goblins), and the idea of having 100's of skirmishing beastmen with great big axes is quite terrifying, and a real tactical challenge. Unfortunately, having played against them several times with my Ogres and my Lizardmen, they don't survive magic missile very well, and they do very poorly in psychology and break tests (due to their low LD).

It will be very interesting to see where GW takes the beastmen. There is a lot they can do, but I am afraid that they might "formalize" them, so as to have a history and a capital of some sort, great battles, alliances....etc...

Unfortunately if Kerill rumours are true, the herdstone-washrine is not very original. Oh well. The gorgon, well that's a whole new kettle of fish. I never played with them, but never thought that the "turn to stone" trick was interesting.

mrtn
15-02-2009, 16:28
Guillaume, that Gorgon is thought to be the fire breathing armoured bull from D&D, and not the snake-girl.
Oh, and the link of the day: The Herdstone (http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx).

zak
15-02-2009, 17:23
I think that GW could have released DoC last as it was the new army, but I suppose the whole 40k joint release forced their hand. I can't wait to see what GW are going o do with the army as the Beasts were one of my favourite 6th edition armies.

guillaume
15-02-2009, 18:37
Guillaume, that Gorgon is thought to be the fire breathing armoured bull from D&D, and not the snake-girl.
Oh, and the link of the day: The Herdstone (http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx).

Ah, okay, well, it would have been fun to turn a slann into stone, right there and then:

move gorgon to within 8" of slann unit.
Gaze at slann (since the gorgon can choose ANY model it can see- and slann hover above the unit, so you can see them)
Then the slann must roll less than its initiative value...wait what's that you say: roll less than 2...a 3 you rolled!? well, yes your slann is now a big stone...:D

That would be fun :D

Coram_Boy
15-02-2009, 18:46
sadly, as it is not a large target, it can't be seen inside a TG unit any more, unless you are on a hill.

lcfr
15-02-2009, 18:47
I still enjoy beasts, even though they are kinda suffering. Hopefully GW will give them a nice overhaul, moving them away from the layout for Mortals, i.e. 'marking' units and characters. Beasts shouldn't just be mortals w/hooves, so I'm hoping that GW will keep their connection to Chaos but represent this in-game in a different way than they do w/the Warriors.

perplexiti
15-02-2009, 18:48
Slann aren't large targets anymore though, so you can't see them like that can you?

Prokrustes
15-02-2009, 19:08
Just to clarify. I do like BoC. I do like them so much, that I started an army of them.
IŽd just cant get rid of the feeling that GW isnt that much into them.
We need more things like Ograh from Barony of the Damned and more fluff like the parts of all the different subspecies of Beasts from the Realms of Chaos books.

Concerning the Nurgle part of my question on top of this thread. I also think that Nurgle makes alot of sense for them, but them being always listed under Nurgle stuff made me wonder if that should be a hint that they are infact Nurgles children or something..

TheDarkDuke
15-02-2009, 19:27
They are just an Army Book that needs updating.

As for not engaging in world events, well they are not the only ones with little to no influence on the warhammer world, yet still are worthy of a book and cause problems in their area. Others that are in the same boat for lack of world conflicts:

Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Wood Elves

Really world conflicts are caused by:

WoC backing by DoC
VC
Orcs
DE
Skaven to a lesser extent.

Conflicts tend to be against and a result old alliances form:

Empire
Dwarf
HE
Bret to a lesser extent.

mrtn
15-02-2009, 19:28
Concerning the Nurgle part of my question on top of this thread. I also think that Nurgle makes alot of sense for them, but them being always listed under Nurgle stuff made me wonder if that should be a hint that they are infact Nurgles children or something..
No, I don't think so.
The old Realm of Chaos books had beastmen listed under all the four gods, Tzaangors, Slaangors, Khorngors and Pestigors.

RossS
15-02-2009, 19:33
The beasts also had perhaps the coolest set of rules in 6th edition, by far Gav's best book IMO, he took brown O&G army and made them fairly unique (then later stiffed them in the FAQ). They also have a very different playstyle. Oh and the herdstone is the best warhammer site I've visited on the internet, which is cool as well.

Current rumours from playtesting btw have:
Cenitgors as cool (but chariots as special)
Chosen Bestigors
A herdstone pulled by minotaurs (warhsrine)
And a gorgon for the rares.

I would agree that the Beasts book was a very inventive army book, and like Ogre Kingdoms, suffered for it. GW still has to get the kinks right on a predominantly skirmishing, light-infantry, combat-based horde. I think they will do a good job on the project. Their more recent books have been fairly well designed.

I should like to point out that the Beasts models, in particular the characters/chariot and Gors/Ungors are some of my favorite-looking bad guys. And the Mordhiem ones should be reintroduced as Warhammer minis. Those were absolutely special.

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 20:43
Aren't Beasts a little short of units, they'd have to integrate new ones.

zak
15-02-2009, 20:54
The only real clues we have are from Harry who said that the beasts would get a lot of new gribblies. His words not mine and he didn't explain any further. I think that the beasts will see a lot of new units to more than make up for what is lost. I hate waiting!!

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 20:57
They need one or two large monsters.

hellharlequin
15-02-2009, 21:15
I'm wiriting my owm Armylist because of that fact that I'll to play with at least one and a half years with a half armybook and it and If it were published by GW
we would see the return of the Chimera, Cockatrice and Jabberwock

zak
15-02-2009, 21:22
I'm hoping that late 2008 or early 2009 is the likely date for release. A return of those monsters would certainly make life interesting!

larabic
15-02-2009, 21:31
I just hope that they don't lose dragon ogres and shaggoths because they are in the WoC book. Dragon ogres and shaggoths as well as the troll king and shaggoth special character should have been saved for the beasts of chaos, they really don't fit in WoC imo.

Sarah S
15-02-2009, 21:39
Well to be fair, Beastmen are just the crap leftover from purging the two useful Chaos books.

Beastmen are like Skaven without anything interesting.

At this point I almost wish GW would abandon them. Where are the Tyranids when you need them?

zak
15-02-2009, 21:52
Your obviously out of your mind. So I will ignore that comment!!! The last beasts book was characterful and individual. It wasn't, I might add joined to the HoC book, but was different. I often saw far more Beasts in HoC lists than vice versa. Other than the magic items and furies I never touched the Hordes models.

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 22:09
I thought that BoC would be next after the LMAB, but rumours don't seem to agree.

Makaber
15-02-2009, 23:51
The problem with Beastmen is, even though they have a huge impact on the Warhammer world, they're not the glory boys. They're like the AK-47's of the setting, to the thermonuclear device that is the Chaos Mortals; they're not as spectacular but overall they inflict a lot more damage.

Of course, very few actually want to play Beastmen because of this. Given a choice between playing the army notorious for sacking capital cities, and the army mostly preoccupied with burning down turnip farms, the average player will opt for the former most of the time. Which is a shame, because since GW is, after all, The Man, Beastmen won't get as much attention because they don't bring in the moolah on the same scale as High Elves and Undead.

It happened with the last book, where they got the short end of the stick with a single regiment box, half the army not getting new models, and the new models that were released being arguaby worse than the old ones. Hopefully, the stuff's become so embarrasingly old they'll have no option but redoing them. I've woved not to play my beloved Beasts until I get new Minotaurs and Bestigors, and I think that day might be getting close now. A girl can dream.

Dr.Mercury
16-02-2009, 00:20
Just getting back into whfb, I chose DE, as my choices were DE and BoC, and since I actually wanted to stand a chance to win, i went with DE.

I do however plan on buying and painting a box of Beastmen every now and then, that way when the new book is released, I have a fully painted army.

They have always been my favorite army in the game. Savage, uncontrollable, and utterly evil.

tortoise
16-02-2009, 00:32
Well, I decided to start a Beasts of Chaos army not long ago even though I know that they are currently pretty screwed.
After sighting the material I could find on them, I cant get rid of the feeling that they are a bit GWs unloved children compared to most other factions except maybe Ogres (<-They have at least their own book in WFRP). After Realms of Chaos fluff for them is hard to come by and it seems to get less and less the more modern it is. Furthermore they seem to play absolutely no part in the affairs of the world, except few excerpts when people say they just got raided. They also seem to get beaten by most other factions on a very regular base and compared to mortal chaos dont feel very fleshed out. It is even sorta funny that in the newer books they just retell most but not all of the stuff from the Realms of Chaos books. I even feel, that they became uhmm..simpler in the new fluff.

Yeah, well, I am left wondering if I am the only one feeling like that or if you share my opinion, or if I am wrong altogether because I just never found "the real fluff" for them?

Furthermore, anybody knows why they are usually mentioned together with Nurgle (Nurgle Beast in the Armybook, Liber Chaotica lists them in the book of Nurgle, Realms of Chaos list them in the general Nurgle section,etc.)?Arent they the children of all chaos gods?

Well i agree with a lot of this. Beastmen have always played second fiddle to human chaos followers since the very first edition of warhammer. There are lots of reasons for this historically speaking. I guess the main one is that its just easier to identify with a human follower so RoC focussed a bit more on them. Back then the chaos powers were also very much focussed on reflecting civilised society as well. Slaanesh for example embodied the power of esoteric pleasure to corrupt people's morals. Nurgle's daemons, the very embodiments of his will, carried out the dance of death- a parody of civilised festive celebrations completely meaningless to a barbarian tribesman or beastman.

I thinks it has also been difficult for GW to reconcile the inherently chaotic nature of beastmen with the inherent uniformity that comes with their modern model making practices. Back in the day when each model code had about 20-30 unique metal models beastmen featured loads of different animals as part of their makeup- camels, crocodiles, rhinos, goats etc. Now they're basically goatmen which, when you think about it, doesn't look much more suggestive of chaos than a lizardman does.

Having said that I really like the models that got released with the previous book and i think the army has a lot of potential. GW did such a great job on the daemons book that i hope this time the beasts will finally get the attention they deserve.

Incidentally the 'link' with Nurgle has been due to nothing other than convenience of space. In the Liber Chaotica, Khorne got marauders, Slaanesh got Dark Elves and tzeentch got magic as the 'asides' in the book, all of which were sensible. That left Nurgle to get Beastmen. Similarly, Slaves to Darkness had most of the core chaos rules in it (like the mutations) and the rest of the stuff got put in the Lost and the Damned. There just wasn't space to cover Beastmen in StD.

Kronos
16-02-2009, 00:39
i don't think boc are unloved it's just how the updating schedule has been.

their last update had some very nice minis, some great fluff and was the only of the chaos factions that had it's own special choices.

I'am curious as to what charcters the new book will have seeing as the woc had two very boc characters (troll king and khloek) perhaps they will get some new ones and i do hope there is a new morghur mini which looks more like the artwork than just a rampaging mutated bull.

The only thing i see a lack of in boc is cavalry, you'd reckon an animal based army would have more cavalry than just drunk centigors, they need something more intresting to fill that spot, maybe even a unit of flyers wern't harpies mentione das a entry a while ago ?

Condottiere
16-02-2009, 00:46
You can't get past the feeling that Beastmen were used as cheap cannon-fodder, which our Chaos player did before HoC.

Niibl
16-02-2009, 00:55
You can't get past the feeling that Beastmen were used as cheap cannon-fodder, which our Chaos player did before HoC.
In older times gors still had 2 wounds which made them very good at this job.

Now that dragen ogres, ogres and trolls have become part of the warrior's list I can only hope that they will flesh out minotaurs and chaos centaurs...sorry-centigors properly to fill the gaps.

Condottiere
16-02-2009, 01:25
I think that because it's been gutted, the next book will either be great or relatively awful, since there's this great opportunity to overhaul everything.

I've never seen them as flyers, but cavalry type units would be needed.

lcfr
16-02-2009, 04:23
Well like others have mentioned, the BoC army book was largely experimental; with every edition and each round of playtesting the army will come closer to finding its niche. Some Warhammer armies have already achieved this kind of balance; they're the armies w/the least radical changes in the past two editions in my opinion.

There's a Platonic, Idea-Form BoC Army Book out there, and though we may never actually reach this Idea, we can at least strive towards it over time. :D

WhiteKnight
16-02-2009, 04:31
I'd like to see more monsters and more animal-like creatures. As for marks, I prefer them being undivided because when you see the beast herd box, the army book cover, the centigor box, and the chariot, you see little to no chaos mutations other than the human to beast transformation. I really think that instead of being chaos related, they should be like skaven and have some chaos elements but still be worshipping their own god(s).

thomas
16-02-2009, 10:54
Well from 5ed to 6ed beastmen lost they "special" rule. Going from 2 wound to 1 wound!? Well we that played beastmen in 5ed got a really bad deal in 6ed.

From having a army with 2 wounds as "core units" (there wasn't core at that time) and a host of monster champion, hero and lord (in 5ed this didn't take charater space, it was a number system, like 3 monster = champion upgrade option, 6 = hero upgrade option...).

In 6ed they lost they wound and monster units lost they hero and lord option. At the same time spawn stopped being units and take mortals and deamons took special choices!? (the core, special and rare choice is a 6ed rule).

If you ask me I think that beastmen lost a great deal from 5ed to 6ed. From being tough as nails and having giant monster units with hard hitting champions, hero's and lords. To being a skirmish army with low Ld!?

Damn I sound like an old man remembering the good old days...

If you beastman players want to wish for some thing in 7ed wish for 5ed spawns. They a unit, the d6 is number of hits not attacks.

Condottiere
16-02-2009, 11:23
Maybe they could resurrect some of the past into the new one? Though two wounds seem unlikely.

zak
16-02-2009, 13:05
I think the days of two wound core troops is gone. There is so much background from WFRP that GW are spoilt for choice as to what big gribblies they want to introduce. The beast herds are fine, bestigor need tweeking and minotaurs need some new buffs and more impoprtantly models, but overall the basis of the list is sound.

The SkaerKrow
16-02-2009, 13:58
Beasts of Chaos were a solid army in 6th, but one that relied heavily on some of the options from the Hordes of Chaos book. Now that they've lost access to most of what they had for Magic Items and support units, they're in sorry shape. However, that state of affairs will change with their new book.

As for their lore, I don't think that we're going to see the Beasts of Chaos become any kind of centralized nation, but I do think that they'll write in some instances where Beast armies have successfully sacked and pillaged large cities, in the Empire and beyond. Really, the issue that Beasts of Chaos have isn't that they aren't a global power, it's that they aren't currently portrayed as a credible threat on even a local level.

Condottiere
16-02-2009, 14:15
No one likes exploring deep dark woods; they could have a whole kingdom there.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2009, 16:27
Really have to hope that for BoC that if they get a new book that they still get to keep the option for the Minotaur army if lead by a Doombull.

The SkaerKrow
16-02-2009, 17:03
No one likes exploring deep dark woods; they could have a whole kingdom there.Oh, certainly they could. It just seems that GW has used Beasts of Chaos to fill the roaming barbarian horde niche that no one really occupies in the Warhammer World. Orcs and Goblins are a bit too organized to fufill the (rather romanticized) roles that we typically associate with, say, the most violent Celtic or Germanic tribes from the mid-to-late Roman period.

Valtiel
16-02-2009, 18:42
I would love to see Beastmen get a great army book. When I started playing HoC in 6th edition I got interested in the Beastmen. As I bought their armybook I was drawn into the cool fluff and the great feel of the army. If you ask me the BoC has a cooler army right now than WoC, but it doesn't make it better sadly.

Right now I'd love to build onto my Beastmen list but several things frighten me. I'm afraid GW will mess the book up like I feel they did with WoC (some boring units, some bad rules, some few useless/overcosted units). This is one of the reasons why I stay away from a potential BoC army right now even though I have almost 2 Beastherd units, 23 Bestigors, 1 Chariot, 2 Beastlords, 2 Bray-shamans and 2 Minotaurs that could be included in the army. We shall see what happens.

Quetzl
16-02-2009, 18:55
Really have to hope that for BoC that if they get a new book that they still get to keep the option for the Minotaur army if lead by a Doombull.

I reacon that'll stay in, as I'd definately hazard a guess that the Minotaurs will be getting new metals/plastics with the new release. So yeah they need some insentive to sell lots of those! :D

Halelel
16-02-2009, 19:31
Don't think it's been discussed yet, but I'd love to see BoC become even more involved with the Wood Elf background and storyline. The whole angle of the "Secret War" was great fluff in my opinion and I would enjoy seeing it expanded and built upon in the new BoC book.

Playwise, I hope they heavily emphasize bestigors + beastherds and the ambush aspect as well. The ambush rule and the skirmishing beast herds are two of my favorite rules in all of Warhammer, I hope they just don't throw those ideas into the garbage.

Anyways, I guess we will find out just how much GW loves BoC whenever they are released. If we get minotaurs that are simply current ogre plastic bodies with a cow head, than we might be in trouble, :D

Sarah S
16-02-2009, 19:50
I reacon that'll stay in, as I'd definately hazard a guess that the Minotaurs will be getting new metals/plastics with the new release. So yeah they need some insentive to sell lots of those! :D

If the current armies are any indication, look for the Doombull that allows a Minotaur army to be a special character.