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View Full Version : Why are people saying that heavy 20 is over the top-Duplicate-CLOSED



volair
15-02-2009, 17:12
There has been quite an uproar about the new imperial guard tank that can fire 29 or more strength 5 shots (heavy 20 gatling gun and three heavy bolters, and possibly a heavy stubber upgrade). I think people need to realize that this is probably going to be one of three leman russ variants that have an upgraded rear armor of 11, will probably cost 10-20pts more than the standard leman russ, and possibly will not be eligible to be fielded in "tank squadrons" of three (in other words you may only be able to play with 3). 29+ shots from a single tank sounds overpowered only until you actually start thinking about math and taking into account the cost of the vehicle and its BS of 3.

AngryAngel
15-02-2009, 17:16
People say such because heavy 20 is a very large number for shots on a standard vehicle. There, mystery solved. It doesn't matter to most how many hits and wounds it gives normally. It "Could" give 20, and thats why people say its over the top. Is it ? Really depends on how lucky you are, do you feel lucky...punk ?"

carldooley
15-02-2009, 17:22
so, this heavy 20 gun, is it going to be balanced by having a BS of 1 or 2? or is it going to be a stationary weapon emplacement?

Inquisitor_Tolheim
15-02-2009, 17:23
There has been quite an uproar about the new imperial guard tank that can fire 29 or more strength 5 shots (heavy 20 gatling gun and three heavy bolters, and possibly a heavy stubber upgrade). I think people need to realize that this is probably going to be one of three leman russ variants that have an upgraded rear armor of 11, will probably cost 10-20pts more than the standard leman russ, and possibly will not be eligible to be fielded in "tank squadrons" of three (in other words you may only be able to play with 3). 29+ shots from a single tank sounds overpowered only until you actually start thinking about math and taking into account the cost of the vehicle and its BS of 3.

It's because the gun actually fires more shots then a titan weapon equivalent. While it's not twin linked, the idea that a single imperial guard tank weapon can fire more shots then a vulcan megabolter feels... wrong.

I don't honestly care aside from that. From a statistic perspective it's not much better then a standard LRBT, although the ungodly roll potential is definitely there. I'd rather see it dropped to 10 shots and improve the quality of each individual shot rather then 20 shots.

Still, the codex is likely already in print so it's a futile discussion at this point.

volair
15-02-2009, 17:41
so, this heavy 20 gun, is it going to be balanced by having a BS of 1 or 2? or is it going to be a stationary weapon emplacement?

It is likely that it will be on a vehicle with BS 3, that can move 6 inches and fire all of its weapons. The tank will probably be able to move 6 inches and fire 29-32 shots (depending on heavy stubber upgrade).

I get the impression that you feel that a BS of 1 or 2, a stationary restriction, or some other drastic restriction, would be necessary to balance the weapon. I argue that you need to consider the cost of the vehicle. I'll do a sample calculation, normalized to 500 points and being against toughness 4, 3+ armor saves. I will assume that the tank will cost 200 points and have 29 strength 5 shots.

500 / 200. This gives you a normalized number of tanks. This is purely for mathematical purposes, obviously you can never have a fraction of a tank.

Multiply that number by 29, divide by 2 for the BS of 3, then multiply by the fraction of 2/3 for wounding on 3+, and divide by 3 for the armor save of 3+.

Do a similar calculation for other key units of other armies, such as Lootaz, Sternguard, etc... and these numbers will be comparable because you normalized against the same target and with the same number of points, 500. You can normalize against different targets, such as T6, T7, 3+ or 2+ save monstrous creatures, and so on. What you will find is that they are very good against T5 and below, but Lootaz are incredible against armor 13 and less and are much better against T6 and up, and sternguard are of course superior to both of them against high toughness and have uses for ignoring cover, etc... and combi meltas against tanks. It is easy to see that heavy 20 is in fact not overpowered.

Lord Damocles
15-02-2009, 17:43
If the possibility of munching whole units of Orks with a lucky roll wasn't bad enough, the current rumours don't have it as an ordinance weapon, so you can add another nine Heavy Bolter shots to the tally (and thats before pintle-weapons...)

That's a possible 32 shots from one tank! Per turn!

volair
15-02-2009, 17:48
If the possibility of munching whole units of Orks with a lucky roll wasn't bad enough, the current rumours don't have it as an ordinance weapon, so you can add another nine Heavy Bolter shots to the tally (and thats before pintle-weapons...)

That's a possible 32 shots from one tank! Per turn!

It is faulty math to think it terms of the maximum result. You should be considering averages. Obviously it is important to keep the difference between minimum and maximum restricted, but Lootaz clearly stretch this difference far more than heavy 20 weapons on ~200 point tanks.

Mannimarco
15-02-2009, 17:52
true and lootaz are running around with what is essentially a heavy d3 autocannon, now thats just scary even if they are only BS2

The True Mooseman
15-02-2009, 17:59
I think part of the reason is that the 40k equivalent of the minigun, firing thousands of rpm, is Heavy 4. AFAIK, the highest there's ever been in a standard 40k army, in terms of rate of fire, is Assault 6 (Swooping Hawk exarch weapon, am I right?). Heavy 20 is ridiculous in comparison, and very hard to justify IMO, especially on imperial tech.

carldooley
15-02-2009, 18:14
You should be considering averages.

I agree wholeheartedly, when I ran an armored company, my troops were exterminators. if I had considered avarages, I would have just used standard Leman Russes.

Tonberry
15-02-2009, 18:19
Why are people saying that heavy 20 is over the top?

At the most basic level, because it's a big number.

In a game where combat effectiveness is determined by numbers, and with 20 being the biggest number ever given for a stat in 40k(obviously excluding points :p), people are bound to be worried by it.

t-tauri
15-02-2009, 18:23
There's already an active thread on this page (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183036) about this. Please look before opening a new thread.

Thread closed.

edit You even copied your first post into the new thread and left this one open.