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Illiterate Scribe
17-02-2009, 20:19
Maybe this should go in modelling. I dunno.

So, to set the scene. Up until about 5 years ago, I had a full Eldar army, which I sold, and have since been doing one model conversions, Inquisitor models, that kinda thing. Now that I'm warming to the idea of doing an army again, I've fallen in love with Daemons - specifically, Tzeentchian Daemons. However, I thought that the existing models aren't quite disturbing enough - sure, horrors are better than bloodletters and daemonettes, but still, I just reckon that they look a bit too normal. I'm not solvent enough to liberally convert other GW figures, so, as such, I ran away and concocted a plan to make a much more weird and creepy-looking set of daemons - doll heads trailing barbed whip antennae, animate, crawling searlights, that sorta thing. Just as I finish up, though, I find this:


Conversions, WYSIWYG, and “Counts As”
Non-Citadel miniatures are not allowed in the Grand Tournament and will be removed in the same way as unpainted miniatures.

Conversions must begin as Citadel miniatures and contain a majority of Citadel components. All other models will be removed from the table. They must be of the appropriate type for the troops they represent and comply with the “Counts As” rule below.

ForgeWorld miniatures may be used to represent models or options from the Codexes and Army Books allowed. This means you could use a ForgeWorld Demolisher turret or Death Korps of Krieg troopers in your Imperial Guard army but would not be allowed to use Heavy Mortars or Centaurs.

The army must be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). This means that weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad.

Should you wish to field certain models in your army that “count as” something different in your list than the model that was originally intended you need to follow these basic rules: the models must be roughly the same size as those you are substituting them for (eg. you could not use Imperial Guard Ogryn to represent Imperial Guard Conscripts), you must be consistent throughout your army (eg. if both of your Space Marine Dreadnoughts have twin-linked heavy bolters - an option no longer allowed - you could field them both as assault cannons, but not one of them as an assault cannon and the other as twin-linked lascannons), and finally you must be very clear with your opponent prior to the game, going over anything that may cause confusion. It may be appropriate to create a “cheat sheet” for your opponent that has pictures of the units accompanied by a description of the units and it’s equipment.

Scratch Building
Games Workshop and Citadel Miniatures has a full range of figures to represent almost anything in their games. There are times when the rules are not represented by a current (or previous edition) model or figure from Citadel Miniatures. Therefore, the Grand Tournament will use the following guidelines to handle the lack of a current model.

Models may be scratch built for purposes of representing models that do not have a current (or previous edition) model. If the scratch build is for a figure then the figure must follow the guidelines laid out for conversions. If the model is a vehicle then participants will be allowed to scratch build the vehicle. A scratch built vehicle will either be a heavily modified current model, or a model that is built from the ground up. The scratch built model must represent the vehicle with all options. Judges will be the ultimate authority if a scratch build will be usable.

Oh dead. So, in order to maintain an army that lies both within reach of GW tournament regulations (that, from reading posts here and elsewhere, tend to be followed in stores and in a lot of places bar friendly matches, as far as scratch-building is concerned) and within the reach of my measly student's budget, I went away and made another plan.

So, I ask you warseer - would a tournament judge - and, more importantly, you as players - accept an army that was made almost entirely from the citadel buildings sprue?

I'm confident enough in my abilities as a kitbasher and modeller that I can make them look pretty good - creative use of some of the capitol imperialis, manufactorum, etc bits, together with some deformation using hot air to soften the plastic slightly could give a definitely disturbing, predatory, above all daemonic look, and would certainly make them fulfill all the necessary stuff above, like 'same size as original figure'. The problem is, though, are the original building kits close enough to models to count under the 'counts as' rule? Would people walk away in disgust? I've been away from LGSes and stuff for a while now, so I'm not too sure on the etiquette.

Waaaaaaagh!
17-02-2009, 20:56
Its made from Citadel Models. So long as Each Unit is Identifiable and you had a "Cheat Sheet" made up, I wouldn't have a problem.

Of course if your army is just bits of sprue with a label on it I'd Call Shenanigans.

Denise
17-02-2009, 20:58
As a non-tournament player, I think your idea sounds awesome.

maelstrom66669
17-02-2009, 21:04
So, I ask you warseer - would a tournament judge - and, more importantly, you as players - accept an army that was made almost entirely from the citadel buildings sprue?



Rofl, thats hilarious.

1. I would accept any model as any model, so long as it was kept track of, Im there to have fun, not to make money off you.

2. It sounds twisted enough to fit their vague rules, im sure they would say no, but I think it would be a great scene to cause nonetheless

Culven
17-02-2009, 21:04
Which GT is this for? I have never seen anything this restrictive as far as scratch built models were concerned, or for some of the other bits of the rules. I certainly have never seen anything like this inforced to the extent that it seems you are concerned it can/will be.

I say that if you want to make your own models, they are of an appropriate size, WYSIWYG, and they are not infringing upon GW's IP rights (at least no more so than most player created figures/conversions), then you shouldn't have any problems.

Count de Monet
17-02-2009, 21:05
In general I would think that for stores and friendly games, your plans in general would be fine as long as you explained what things are. Also be aware that some of your plans (crawling figs low to the base) could be met with some groans as this makes them harder to be seen to shoot at - works both ways for shooting units, but the crawling berzerker horde has been a joke for some time.

For tournaments it would be up to whoever's running the tournament. Could be a crapshoot there.

As a player, fighting an animated city/junkyard army would be cool. As long as I could tell the Flamer junk piles from the Horror junk piles etc. I'd be fine with it. And an animated factory as a Soulgrinder would be lovely to see. :cool:

lachlin
17-02-2009, 21:07
It could be non GW bitz and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

ctsteel
17-02-2009, 21:31
The idea of a daemonically possessed city, with buildings shambling forward to attack is rather appealing.

dingareth
17-02-2009, 21:36
The idea of a daemonically possessed city, with buildings shambling forward to attack is rather appealing.

A counts as Nid zilla army, I like it!

gonzosbignose
17-02-2009, 21:42
This is a very interesting thread.

Firstly... i must just say... i love your initial idea... dolls heads... creepy wire et al.

Secondly... im thrilled that after years out doing inquisitor, conversions... painting et al... that your getting back into it.

Now...

Lets get down to the nitty gritty.

ONe assumes these scratch built demons arent going to be the only thing in your army?

Subsequently, youll have a body of GW figures (an assumption im making)

If your army was themed, and used these scratch builds to add to the theme, i would applaud you and welcome your idea. I think any GW employee would be a complete tool not to back you up on this idea... afterall... this hby is all about the story and background, the idea and all that jazz.

If you were in a GW tournement and got asked to remove the models... i think that would pretty much sum up how lost GW has become.

Your idea sounds fab.

Id do it... and not only that id take it to a GT. Im sick to death of seeing armies painted by other people at these places, and army lists ripped off the internet (cos its good) If they are to question/rule against you, simply cos you have imagination and drive, maybe it says more about there ridiculous rules package than your concepts

Regards

My name is Daniel and i am a wargamer

Illiterate Scribe
17-02-2009, 21:46
Thanks for all the encouragement guys. I just placed an order for two Imperial Sectors. :cool:


Its made from Citadel Models. So long as Each Unit is Identifiable and you had a "Cheat Sheet" made up, I wouldn't have a problem.

Of course if your army is just bits of sprue with a label on it I'd Call Shenanigans.

Yeah, I'd be cheatsheating away, and yes, each unit would be distinct. If my army was just bits of sprue with labels on them, I would be more shocked and appalled at it than you were. I'm in this for the modelling more than anything else - I'd just love to be able to present it.


Which GT is this for? I have never seen anything this restrictive as far as scratch built models were concerned, or for some of the other bits of the rules. I certainly have never seen anything like this inforced to the extent that it seems you are concerned it can/will be.

I say that if you want to make your own models, they are of an appropriate size, WYSIWYG, and they are not infringing upon GW's IP rights (at least no more so than most player created figures/conversions), then you shouldn't have any problems.

Worryingly enough, it's from the GW Grand Tournament basic rules. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3400027&start=4) I guessed that they'd be the strictest, so I looked to starting there and working down.

Lachlin, Denise, Maelstrom - thanks for the support. It's good to see open-minded players.


In general I would think that for stores and friendly games, your plans in general would be fine as long as you explained what things are. Also be aware that some of your plans (crawling figs low to the base) could be met with some groans as this makes them harder to be seen to shoot at - works both ways for shooting units, but the crawling berzerker horde has been a joke for some time.

No worries. Back in the old days, a friend colllected Iyanden craftworld Eldar, and fielded about five 'stealthlords'. Even without TrueLOS, shooting and hitting commando crawling wraithlords was a nightmare. Furthermore, the architectural elements mean that I'll have trouble keeping to the original heights more than anything else.


For tournaments it would be up to whoever's running the tournament. Could be a crapshoot there.

As a player, fighting an animated city/junkyard army would be cool. As long as I could tell the Flamer junk piles from the Horror junk piles etc. I'd be fine with it. And an animated factory as a Soulgrinder would be lovely to see.

I'm planning on distinguishing the different daemons partly through style (as you hint - khornate things and soulgrinders with big, blocky, industrial shapes, flourishes and sweeping curves for Tzeentch, and so on. Still don't know about Slaanesh and Nurgle though. Possibly Gaudi-esque and baroque), but, since 'behold my pantheon of four architectural styles' could get tacky after a while, I'm also planning on using colour, and maybe the odd added bit. You should see what I'm planning for Ang'grath, should I use him ...

Anyway, thanks again, all - hopefully, depending on workload, I may be able to get some pictures up at some point. Watch this space ...

Culven
17-02-2009, 22:27
Worryingly enough, it's from the GW Grand Tournament basic rules. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3400027&start=4) I guessed that they'd be the strictest, so I looked to starting there and working down.
Eep. . . US GT, eh? If it makes you feel any better, I played in a US GT where I played a Tyranid player who had Starcraft Zerg figures for a Carnifex and a Zoanthrope. They were painted to match the army, and the judges never said anything about them.

synapse
17-02-2009, 22:39
i played under those exact same rules in the maltese nationals last october with a truescale world eater army. i used the daemonhunter armylist - using grey knight terminators to represent my TS tactical marines and storm troopers to represent the imperial army guys.

i was treading a fine line between being disqualified and bening allowed to play. in the end i was allowed to play, despite what the organisers said were confusing models (i can only imagine them being confusing to someone who hasnt palyed for long as the models were larger than terminators, but i digress).

the more heavily converted the army, the bigger the chance of it not being accepted. from my years converting and using converted models in official GW tournaments, its that regardless of the way you interpret the rules, the judges will have their own, often biased, interpretation which will win out out over what you say, no matter how silly their rulings may be.

id say if youre planning on using these models mostly in an official GW environment, to try and keep the conversions and counts-as, as simple as possible. if youre aiming mostly for friedly play, go to town and make the coolest models you can think of.

Illiterate Scribe
17-02-2009, 22:40
Again, thanks for the encouragement, Gonzo. It's good to see that story and background are still appreciated. My first experience, using my local GW's daemons, went poorly, so it's good to hear that's not a universal development.


Eep. . . US GT, eh? If it makes you feel any better, I played in a US GT where I played a Tyranid player who had Starcraft Zerg figures for a Carnifex and a Zoanthrope. They were painted to match the army, and the judges never said anything about them.

Well, it would be UK GT for me, but I assume the same rules apply. But if the Zerganids flew ... that's a good sign. Thanks!


the more heavily converted the army, the bigger the chance of it not being accepted. from my years converting and using converted models in official GW tournaments, its that regardless of the way you interpret the rules, the judges will have their own, often biased, interpretation which will win out out over what you say, no matter how silly their rulings may be.

id say if youre planning on using these models mostly in an official GW environment, to try and keep the conversions and counts-as, as simple as possible. if youre aiming mostly for friedly play, go to town and make the coolest models you can think of.

Well, I hope that the conversions will sway them then. A cheat-sheet should help with the second part.

Vassakov
17-02-2009, 22:48
The idea sounds fantastic.

The easiest way to get it into a Tornuament would be to contact GW first - email them decent photos, tell them what you've done and basically just say "Look, I've done these cool conversions - can I use them"

A cheatsheet is a must - so both players know where they are with the models. Whilst I would have no problems, these sorts of enviroments can bring out the worst in some people.

Gazak Blacktoof
17-02-2009, 23:21
I really want to see a city walk now. Are you going to create a blog thread in the modelling sub-forum?

Cypher, the Emperor
18-02-2009, 00:58
GT is kinda anal about this kinda stuff, but most other tournaments tned to air on the side of "if it looks cool you can use it". Those rules are mainly to keep someone from playing an all-LEGO brettonian army.

The city army, sound dead cool though

Illiterate Scribe
18-02-2009, 01:27
I really want to see a city walk now. Are you going to create a blog thread in the modelling sub-forum?

Oh, definitely. I'm still not entirely decided on how I'll be painting 'em, so I may be taking suggestions ...

Znail
18-02-2009, 02:09
GT is kinda anal about this kinda stuff, but most other tournaments tned to air on the side of "if it looks cool you can use it". Those rules are mainly to keep someone from playing an all-LEGO brettonian army.

The city army, sound dead cool though

Exactly, most non-GW tournaments wont care if you use GW models or not. The main reason to get kicked out then is if its difficult to distinguish what model is what exactly or if it looks plain ugly and cheap. But the rule of cool is pretty important, it looks cool then most tournament organisers will bend rules to alow them in if needed.

Eulenspiegel
18-02-2009, 10:50
Eep. . . US GT, eh? If it makes you feel any better, I played in a US GT where I played a Tyranid player who had Starcraft Zerg figures for a Carnifex and a Zoanthrope. They were painted to match the army, and the judges never said anything about them.
But they would have, and your opponent would have been thrown out of the event had any of his opponents complained to a judge.

This can be a very cheap but legal means for an opponent you beat fairly on the tabletop to get revenge.

Scribe, that concept sounds fantastic! Certainly something you´re not seeing every day. I really hope you don´t run into any problems at tournaments.
I´ll be keeping an eye on the m,p&t section of Warseer :)

Forlorn
19-02-2009, 20:28
My understanding as told by a GW manager was if you did a conversion using ONLY GW sprue bits, and glued them togther, the model would be legal as it comes from GW. A walking city would simply be awesome to see.

I prefer armies that are outside the box and use other miniatures or concepts that allow for greater vision and overall appearance.

samiens
19-02-2009, 23:11
Ok, first off- at this year's UK doubles a tau and eldar army didn't have matching bases in each half (i.e. some of the tau were based differently to others) and they were told to standardise it or be disqualified- seriously!

Secondly, I think there's two issues- as a regular tournament player- I like to be able to easily identify what's what- preferably without a crib sheet. with that in mind I thinkthis idea might be a little out there for a GT. In a friendly game it should be ok- but it would stress some people who then wouldn't want to play you and I could sympathise (if not agree) with them.

I think it would be fine if you had the actual models leeching out of the walls but to be honest you're plan still seems a little non-represntative- though it would loook awesome.

Before anyone starts having a go- I would play this in a friendly setting but the whole point and atmosphere of a tournament is different and its not just about the fluff!

I find it very hard to believe taht this would fly at a GT to be honest unless you had

Gazak Blacktoof
20-02-2009, 00:23
Before anyone starts having a go- I would play this in a friendly setting but the whole point and atmosphere of a tournament is different and its not just about the fluff!

Its not only about the games either.

TimLeeson
20-02-2009, 00:25
I'm not sure if those rules mean I can use 100% scratchbuilt aliens of my own making or ones based from backround races ?

Wolflord Havoc
20-02-2009, 00:34
Played a 8750 as side game of Apoc a few saturdays ago at WHM world and each side had a Wolfhound - one a very nice Chaos forgeworld one - and the other a 'built out of Cornflake box's' (a little bit more involved than that - I think it is part 'Vulture' omni mech at one point) one - but certainly not one built by GW or its afiliates.

At various points during the day a random member of GWs staff would peruse our collections - before doing a double take when they got to the 'home made' Warhound.

Say 'wow - did you make that yourself?'

We would reply 'No. A mate made it years ago - we are just borrowing it for the day' Expecting to be told off each time for daring to bring such an abomination into the hallowed ground that is WHM World - and being told to remove it forthwith.

Except each time the GW staff said 'Cool!' And wondered off.

Although perhaps the almost subsonic growling noise I started to make scared them off each time! :evilgrin:

So in short I would not worry - while GW is a commercial entity it is still populated by people who love the games.

Col. Tartleton
20-02-2009, 01:29
Whats your definition of a demonic city?

Parking meters with tentacles? Taxi's with claws and living Pakistanis trapped inside mangled demon flesh wreckage? Inside out police officers? Grocery carts filled with human body parts pushed by faceless gaunt mutants? Beggars with feeder tendrils? Hordes of zombies with mundane household items stuck in them? Postal boxes eating old ladies?

How crazy are you planning on going?

piotrov
20-02-2009, 03:07
Just wanted to add my vote that this sounds like a great idea. I'd love to see the conversions when you start to work on them. :)

And, as far as your opponents being crystal clear of what's what - I would make some sort of banner/icon for each unit, maybe just a wire coming off one of the models with a banner indicating what each unit represents.

Absolute worst case scenario: take a paint pen and write "Horror", "Flamer", etc. on the edge of each base....

jubilex
20-02-2009, 07:20
Good luck with it mate, looking forward to pics and progress!!!

There is some precedent for this in gw fluff, as I recall.
Don't know much about fantasy, but in wfrp, the Kislevian city of Praag went a bit daemonically loopy, didn't it???

I would love to fight a bunch of loony buildings, as long as I know what is what without too much reference, it's fine with me.

dodicula
20-02-2009, 07:49
Couple of things,
1) First of all this has nothing to do with GW's (tenuous) attempts at claiming IP, you are free to build and convert your own models
2) In my 15 years of Gaming I have only ever played at 1 indy store (out of 6) that demanded GW only. But this is a question best found locally though, i.e. go to your local store and see whats cookin, talk to people
3) Yes GW tournaments are GW only but there is a whole set of GTs (indygt.com) that do not require gamesworkshop models (I've taken an entire army of Rackham Orcs and Goblines to the Quake City Rumble for example) with no problem.
4) If you want more disturbing demon models....
Helldorado.fr

yabbadabba
20-02-2009, 08:45
If you are going to do this, frankly, awesome sounding army for GT's I would stop now and contact all the various tournament organisers that you are likely to come across - just to be sure.

If you are planning to play for giggles and might go to a GT, then full steam ahead friend!

Emperor's Avenger
20-02-2009, 11:41
Daemonically possessed walking buildings?

Could be very good or very bad, though if you're a good modeller then more like good. Have you considered sticking a few chaotic/daemonish mutations (tyranid bits would be good for this) on them?

Korras
20-02-2009, 12:40
Whats your definition of a demonic city?

Parking meters with tentacles? Taxi's with claws and living Pakistanis trapped inside mangled demon flesh wreckage? Inside out police officers? Grocery carts filled with human body parts pushed by faceless gaunt mutants? Beggars with feeder tendrils? Hordes of zombies with mundane household items stuck in them? Postal boxes eating old ladies?

How crazy are you planning on going?

this would be very fun to put together, though.. and would look awesome.

Count de Monet
20-02-2009, 13:46
Whats your definition of a demonic city?

Detroit?


;)

electricwolf
20-02-2009, 14:21
I think you're ideas are fantastic

When i goto the battle bunker near-by i get somewhat tired of seeing what i call cookie-cutter armies. Straight out of the box, nothing else added the poses all the same no imagination.

I still have a copy of the original Rogue Trader where they show a tank made from a plastic bottle and very little GW parts. This is how modeling should be.

Me myself i have LED's on some of my Tau, my imperial guard tanks have non-GW parts on them, some of my imperial guardsmen have 1/35 scale weapons. I love doing something different.

Illiterate Scribe
20-02-2009, 20:42
Thanks for all the support, guys, when I've finished the squad I'm making right now, pics will most certainly be provided - your advice has been taken onboard.

In the meantime, I just gotta ask a question somewhat urgently - approximately how tall are the seeker of slaanesh and bloodcrusher models?

I kinda need to know while the plastic's still soft!

CrownAxe
20-02-2009, 20:52
not immensely tall, crusher is only 2 1/2" off of its base

Seekers don't have a model at the moment since the the pewter models have been discontinued, probably will get a model in may but the pewter seekers that are floating around aren't any taller then 3" off its base (though probably a bit shorter, since i don't have the model i'm estimating base on pictures)

Illiterate Scribe
20-02-2009, 21:00
not immensely tall, crusher is only 2 1/2" off of its base

Seekers don't have a model at the moment since the the pewter models have been discontinued, probably will get a model in may but the pewter seekers that are floating around aren't any taller then 3" off its base (though probably a bit shorter, since i don't have the model i'm estimating base on pictures)

Thanks, crown, have an internet. Didn't notice they discontinued daemonettes on steeds of Slaanesh. Possibly because they are a bit more risque. Must investigate further.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
20-02-2009, 21:07
Oh, definitely. I'm still not entirely decided on how I'll be painting 'em, so I may be taking suggestions ...

The way I'd do it would be making them all base grey, but with shading and highlights of green for Nurgle, blue for Tzeentch, red for Khorne, and pink or purple for Slaanesh. Kind of like how the GW site's suggested scheme for Grey Knights uses blue ink for a slight blue tint. Basically, use each god's color as a tint.

Also, I love the four styles of architecture idea.

Finally, I think GW's policy on conversions and scratchbuilds is silly. It's reasonable to disallow models of their competitors, but if I sculpt my own models from scratch, that should be fine. And if I make a Trukk or something mostly from plasticard, that should also be fine. Your idea is brilliant and you're using GW products to make it, so it's not even like you're sculpting your own and denying them profit.

Playa
21-02-2009, 04:22
Hey,


Detroit?

Michigan's fabulous Gateway to Windsor? Respect!


The way I'd do it would be making them all base grey, but with shading and highlights

This would trump confusion feigned to get a sly dq.
Also consider color-coded handbills, graffiti and the like.
Unfortunately, color-coding alone would just cover 5-6 Daemon types.


I think GW's policy on conversions and scratchbuilds is silly

To be fair, GW doesn't sell "fun"; they're a model company.
They don't mind users having fun with their merch.
Just as long as it's *their* merch.


if I sculpt my own models from scratch, that should be fine

GW supports sanctioned tourneys because they're photo ops for GW merch -

"Look! Smiling, happy buyers! Join the fun! Buy! More buy = more fun!"
Possibly, "Look! It's fun modeling and converting with our stuff! Buy now!"
But, it's absolutely never to be, "Look! It's fun not buying our models, too!"


you're using GW products to make it, so it's not even like you're sculpting your own and denying them profit

GW bits is only half of the deal; wysiwyg arms and armour is the other.
CSM Daemons would be a cinch - no GLDs have Armour Saves.
They also lack ranged Attacks, so that's sorted, too.

C:CD models are many and varied, so something else will have to be done.

Vertical (ish) 0.5x1in wall sections could represent "Pack" type Daemons -
Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, Flamers, Horrors, Bloodletters and Furies.
40x40mm piles of twisted metal could represent Nurgling Swarms, etc.

0.75x1.5in "Beasts" could fit horizontally on 25x50mm Cav bases, etc.
(Obviously, Heralds and ICs would have to stand out from 'the crowd'.)

It's the larger Daemons that will present a thematic challenge.
One solution is to use the Stone Golem approach:

Form mounts, MCs etc, from broken slabs joined with paperclip "rebar".
Grinders and Princes could be similarly "mocked-up" from rebar and slabs.
As long as they're properly based and bulked, one has done their part, imo.

Ironically, TOs can choose whether to follow the rules - even their own.
So, I wouldn't waste time worrying about something so unpredictable.
If the models sound cool and look good, they're reward enough.

Ymmv.


Playa

--

"In Soviet Russia, building condemns you!"