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ChaosVC
18-02-2009, 08:20
Hello fellow humans that got sucked and hooked into the world of GW Enterprising money grabbing, toy selling land of toy soldiers.

One Nooby noob question to ask about Chaos spaz malines.
Do you think a list with say.


Chaos Lordz
7 chosen
10 chaos spaz malines with Heavy Bolter and plasma gun. powder fizt
10 chaos spaz malines with Heavy bolter and flame thrower. powder fizt
12 B.Zerkers! powder fizt
10 lesser Demons.

Any Da good? Should I drop the lesser demons?

Any advise and tactical briefing about making balance Chaos Spaz Malines army is greatly appreciated! :chrome:

CthulhuDalek
18-02-2009, 10:42
Uh, you'll probably get more responses by not referring to one of my oldest armies as Spaz Malines when asking for help about said army...

:P

But anyway, I've always found Lesser Daemons to be of some use, but I like to use them as two different units of 5(Though if points allow 2 units of ten) just for diversity.

Idk what this powder fizt nonsense is either...

SteelTitan
18-02-2009, 10:53
haha good read, i love your "alternative" names ;)
nothing wrong with a bit of healthy mocking of our nerdy toy soldier hobby.

I use 1x7 lesser daemons in my 1000p list and will use 2x7 L.D. in my 1500p list (the 7 is because i play death guard and like to stay themed). I dont have the most experience with them but from what i saw up until now i definitely like them a lot. You have to play the smart though, they are not as tough as your average marines. So try to not walk them in LOS of anythin shooty (cityfight ftw!).

Their stats are pretty good, able to pack a hard punch in combat with decent target selection and/or support!

Do not forget that they have to be placed within 8" of an Icon (or was it 6"?). This means that they might arrive a lot earlier than you need them and thus more vulnerable to incoming fire. This is pretty much the only drawback they have, which makes them risky to use. But apart from that I think they are a solid choice and would certainly recommend to use them. For their stats and potential (if played right) they are a real bargain for their points!

Mojaco
18-02-2009, 11:04
They're good. Bolstering the line where you need it at a moments notice is definately useful. Just try them out.

Levett
18-02-2009, 11:37
I understood none of the OP. Infact, anyone seeing a similarity between "Space" and "Spaz" clearly has some mental defect that the rest of us were fortunate enough to avoid.

However, i'll answer the question in the topic.

I personally find Lesser Daemons to be one of my most dependable units. Simply drop them into cover and get to ground with a unit of 8+, and watch your opponent try to budge them.

Squads of 7-9 I find work best, anything less and they tend to die too easily.

Sanctjud
18-02-2009, 13:53
Oh god, this topic is done to death.

Lesser daemons have a place in the Chaos list.
Not the small throw away units that some think they should be used as.

They are great to lock a dangerous foe in combat, and either tarpit them there, or wait for reinforcements. Certainly they aren’t ‘UBER’, but they are decent with what they get to offset the lower save, in essence, the 5++ is better in situations you set them up with.

I see only 2 competitive squad sizes: 10 and 20. These 2 sizes min/maxes the ‘additional’ model in the next ring, to get that much needed assault range.

I use a squad of 20 in my competitive 1850 list.
It’s roughly the same cost as a 10 man 2 special weapon, fist + rhino squad, but the lesser daemons do hit a lot harder in terms of rolling lots of dice.
It’s a possibility of 60 dice rolling, good for hordes and tarpitting, you are not too worried of No Retreat! for 2-3 rounds of combat.

In general, it’s how you use a unit, less to do with how they look on paper.

My 7 Cents.

DhaosAndy
18-02-2009, 14:11
Much as it pains me to say it, they have found a home in my competative lists, since the're cheap and reasonably effective.
At 1500-2000 I'll typically run 2 squads between 8 and 12 strong.
They help bulk out the troop choices and the're fairly decent in combat, though they do need support against MEQ's.

Some points:

1/ Make sure you have enough icons.

2/ I find small squads just give away KP's.

3/ Squads larger than 12 can be difficult to place exactly where you want them if things get tight.

4/ Remember that they can provide a handy 4+ cover save if nothing else :evilgrin:

SteelTitan
18-02-2009, 15:34
I understood none of the OP. Infact, anyone seeing a similarity between "Space" and "Spaz" clearly has some mental defect that the rest of us were fortunate enough to avoid.



:rolleyes: no offense but i think some ppl take warhammer or corresponding names too seriously...nothing wrong with a bit of joking around.

Starchild
18-02-2009, 16:04
ChaosVC: There are plenty of threads in the Chaos Tactica regarding lesser daemons. A quick search should point you in the right direction. I think the consensus is that they are OK for objective grabbing, but not much else.

Vampiric16
18-02-2009, 16:09
I usually take 2 units of 10 at 1500pts+. They have held up veterans and nobs and overwhelmed smaller units. Combined with a greater daemon, they can really swing a combat.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
18-02-2009, 19:11
If you have enough icons and quite fast elements in your force with said icons [rhinos/raptors/bikes], you could use one/two squads in 1500. Clearly lesser daemons are not underpriced [generaly speaking they are described as slightly overpriced], but have nice models and are not crap. Just use their strenght.

From powergamer perspective - not worth the effort.

But choice is up to you.

dal9ll
18-02-2009, 19:35
Daemon Bomb Tactic:

Take a couple (or more) units of 15-20 Lesser Daemons and Deep Strike/Assault with them. Its pretty simple but that many bodies with three attacks each coming literally out of nowhere is a swift kick in your opponent's proverbial groin. Units of less than 7 or so are a joke and an easy Kill Point for your opponent.

Ouroboros
18-02-2009, 20:54
They're definately useful, especally if you're running an all cult type army with no normal chaos space marines. In that case they really help shore up your numbers and bit and the way they can be brought in more or less anywhere they're needed as a response to threats makes them very useful.

I'd take more than just one small unit though. They work best when you can turn what your opponent thinks is going to be a confrontation in his favour into one where he's drowing in summoned deamons instead.

The more of them you have in your army the more of your army's close combat strength can be effectively held back and then applied exactly where it's needed, once that location becomes obvious.

Cuda
18-02-2009, 21:58
Don't forget if you've run a Chaos Marine army with 6 Troop slots filled you can still run some lesser Daemons. Maybe not as tactically effective as loyalist combat squads but we can still provide a lot of scoring units.

Cuda...

volair
18-02-2009, 22:26
Lesser deamons are an inferior choice. You should be playing with plague marines and/or berserkers, never lesser deamons.

Sanctjud
18-02-2009, 23:13
See, It's Volair's narrow minded comments that really screw around with Warhammer in general.

It's all based on usage. Lesser daemons applied knowing full well what they can or can't do is really all you can ask.

It's a dice game, therefore anything can fail.

Generally, a PM squad w/ kittied out weapons fist and rhino runs pretty expensive, over the cost of 20 lesser daemons.

Certainly both units are great, and PM's do outshine LDs, but if the LD's get off an impossible charge from a summoning post say from a chosen squad, that ties up 4 units part of a gun line, holding them for a turn of shooting and obsuring everyone else behind them.... could be so much more worth it than a rhino squad 'hoping' their rhino doesn't die.

Secondly, they can plug holes when you need it in game. PM's are limited by deployment already, they can't suddenly enter the game and reinforce a flank in the enemy deployjent zone.

And for those people who use small squads to exclusively hold objectives... would you rather have 300 points of plague marines in a rhino camp an objective, or 130 points of lesser daemons going to ground to do the same, while the 300 point PM's go out and reap death else where.

It's an isolated situation to rate lesseer daemons based on just themselves, they need be used in concert with the rest of the list.
Making overgeneralizations IS NOT helping.

My 7 Cents.

PapaDoc
19-02-2009, 00:13
On Topic: Yes deamons are worth it. 8 is a good number aswell. Make sure you have icons for them and find a way to deliver those icons.

Off Topic:



Monolith of text


Watch out bro.

ChaosVC
19-02-2009, 05:39
edit:To those who are offended because I call space marine spaz malines, loosen up a bit, its not like it some kind of religion, I just think they are cuter being called spaz malines. hehe:p I called my favourite chaos warriors cows warriors sometimes.

Thanks for all the replies and advice, I guess I will be taking them after all considering I am playing with quite a lot of icon bearing units, I can summon them anywhere whenever they are needed.

Just curious, what model do most of you use for your lesser demons? I thinking of bloodletters.

Griffin
19-02-2009, 05:56
Depends on what marks you have in your army - I use whatever looks appealing at the time since I play black legion (everything marked undivided).

DhaosAndy
19-02-2009, 10:31
Currently using metal daemonettes and old, old horrors. Will have to get 20ish sorted out on round bases for the GT though, probably metal daemonettes and old bloodletters.

IJW
19-02-2009, 11:18
edit:To those who are offended because I call space marine spaz malines, loosen up a bit, its not like it some kind of religion, I just think they are cuter being called spaz malines.
The problem is that in the UK 'spaz' is an extremely offensive term for people with cerebral palsy, and using it in that way can get you in serious trouble.

Now picture things like Chaos Spawn or Possessed that potentially move in a jerky way, and maybe you can see why some of us thought that you were being intentionally offensive...

Meanwhile, back to the actual topic - they can be very effective when used correctly, but they tend to require more thought than units like PMs because you have to use a combined arms approach with them.

volair
19-02-2009, 17:00
See, It's Volair's narrow minded comments that really screw around with Warhammer in general.

It's all based on usage. Lesser daemons applied knowing full well what they can or can't do is really all you can ask.

It's a dice game, therefore anything can fail.

My 7 Cents.

Everything can indeed fail;this is a dice based game with randomized results. You can still compare units and see that one of them is better. Try thinking in terms of averages. And it doesn't matter what you use lesser deamons for, plague marines and/or berserkers would do it better.

IJW
19-02-2009, 17:22
And it doesn't matter what you use lesser deamons for, plague marines and/or berserkers would do it better.
Indeed. How about tying up enemy heavy weapons at least a turn earlier than the PMs or Berzerkers could possibly get there?

Sanctjud
19-02-2009, 17:41
Or getting inv saves to 'tarpit' say...banshees.
Or 'deepstrike' in and charge ( few things can do that ).
Or come in where they are needed, and not rely on deployment.

Yes, plague marines are tougher, and Zerkers are choppier, but lesser daemons occupy a role and niche different to them, and can do AS well as those options.

It's not just about the averages, it's about usage. So what is they die in droves, if they do their job, they do their job... and nothing is as economical to tie up 'dangerous units' as lesser daemons... ( dangerous read: units with lots of power weapons or fists ).

Volair, you quoted several statments but only addressed the last line. The 2 lines before it are the meat of it.
It's narrow minded to drop an overgenerlized statement that something is better than another, the point being, they all occupy a different role, so can't be compared that easily... and is not 'that' constructive.

My 7 Cents.

killfrenzy
19-02-2009, 20:45
The problem with lesser daemons is that they excel at no role in the game and are actively exceeded in many by other more specialsed choices.
Are they as resilient as plague marines?
Are they as powerful as berzerkers?
Are they as mobile as bikers or raptors?
Are they infiltrators like chosen?
Are they Scouts, like possessed (sometimes, FFS) are?

They are none of these things and are comparable to another unit in 4.0 which has little or no purpose in a competitive army list; the chaos spawn.

One could argue that for their, relatively, low cost they are an effective -expendable- unit that is expected to be hold up and be wiped out by an elite enemy unit.
Is the guaranteed expenditure of 130-260 victory points actually being advocated as a viable tactic here? Is this what I am supposed to read into the above?

No, I'm afraid that for those points one is far better advised to purchase even a unit of CSMs, who are equally as effective in assault, will survive longer in the face of enemy fire (3+ save Vs. 5+) and can return fire to boot. Not only that but they are far more mobile thanks to their access to rhino and land raider transportation.
But they can't deep strike I here you say!
Of course, however their appearance on the battlefield is not subject to the vagaries of a dice roll, nor is it subject to the necessity for their to be icons on the table: because if your opponent kills your icon bearers, through mass fire, or mind war or in some other manner - your daemons cannot be summoned.

And raptors can deep strike. They also have things like powerfists, meltaguns and the like to deal with armour; something daemons are utterly useless at.
Anyone remember the battle report in WD when 4.0 1st came out? Gav (or whoever) had some lessers attacking a predator for about 4 turns, achieving nothing.
Highly amusing ....


narrow minded

When engaging in argument with ones peers it is sometimes effective -when the objective is to convince them of the veracity of ones own views- not to get their backs up with inane insults ...
:eyebrows:

IJW
19-02-2009, 20:53
Victory points? What are they? ;)

killfrenzy
19-02-2009, 21:01
Victory points? What are they? ;)


Kill points, whatever ...

Sanctjud
19-02-2009, 21:24
@killfrenzy:

Lesser daemons are not as shiny as the other options... but that's not what I was getting at.

Are they as resilient as plague marines? No, but against power weapons, rending, MC, against stuff that ignores power armor and FNP..., narrow minded, if you really view that as an insult, then I'll say this... you missed some items in which Lesser daemons would be more appropriate than Plague marines, and you get more bodies with lesser daemons, which is sometimes worth more than the lower number but quality bodies.

Are they as powerful as berzerkers? No, but they can pull of a charge that zerkers might NEVER do, and rob the initiative from the enemy ( like orks and guants that need the charge to get in as many rollz as possible ), and there's a quality of getting to roll 60 dice as opposed to the zerkers... 40 dice... comapring roughly 260 points.

Are they as mobile as bikers or raptors? No, but they come in where they need to be. Raptors are still limited in effective range, and bikers can't do anything when they need to redeploy. Raptors and bikers don't score, which isn't a huge issue as they can contest...but there's the quality that Lesser daemons are chaos, while the raptor and bikers are spiky smurfs.

Are they infiltrators like chosen? No, they dont' infiltrate, but they are summoned... they are entirely safe til they come on, provided you have icons ( and icons are pretty cheap around). They can get in were they need to be, and get off charges.
Infiltrators NEVER get the charge unless the opponen moves towards them.

Are they Scouts, like possessed (sometimes, FFS) are? No, they don't scout, but why would you need to, they are summoned to the board, they don't need to be around turn one to run forward.

Again, for crying out loud, we are not comparing LD's to the other troop choices, I am saying is that they have uses, outside of the normal "lol, other things have better stats.". They are cheaper ( they aren't cheap mind you, but you get more bodies ).

They can score cheaply.
Summoning is a BIG issue for them.
Coming on objectives you'd never hold with something that would be more useful elsewhere.
Tying up units that have power weapon equivalents.
Throwing some attacks around with the oppurtunity.
They can tie up shooty units while the summoning squad deals with another squad.
They can pull off an 'impossible charge'.
Provide cover saves to a slogging infantry unit if sacrificed...a la screen door with run.
You can make impassible infantry wall with the run move....shielding a squad or tank you dont' want charged for a turn.

It's how you use them, not just how they look on paper.

If you don't like any of this... and don't want to be constructive, fine. I'm just trying to help.. and give a different point of view... something positive... but that seems to not be useful I guess.

My 7 Cents.

killfrenzy
19-02-2009, 22:11
Again, for crying out loud, we are not comparing LD's to the other troop choices, I am saying is that they have uses, outside of the normal "lol, other things have better stats.". They are cheaper ( they aren't cheap mind you, but you get more bodies ).

Every unit in the game "has its uses". That's not the issue here.

A units value is its function relative to the army that its a member of and relative to other competing units of similar role in said army.

Honestly, I would not choose a unit of 20 lessers over a unit of 10 CSMs with a rhino.

The latter is just superior in that it can achieve the same objectives that lessers can, but still retain capabilities in other directions as well. Namely, mobility, durability and ranged firepower.

When you are playing an army that can be outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1, it is useful to have units capable of acheiving something of value every turn.

Yes, you have a large amount of bodies, but all the 20 lessers will really achieve is to temporarily inconvenience some of the enemy through holding them in assault or blocking lines of fire.
For 260pts I expect more, especially from MEQs.
If you really must have a tarpit, then can you say that 20 CSMs, with their 3+ save would not be more effective a choice?
Only 40pts more ...

When daemon packs were still in use, daemons had powers and abilities that their CSM masters lacked, such as rending, all power weapons or such. With this standardisation of the summoned daemon footsoldier, this distinction has been lost and much of their value with it.
Now you cannot send daemonettes after light vehicles, or bloodletters after terminators - they wouldn't accomplish anything ...

The least that could have been in this codex is to have allowed the player to mark his daemons. Even +1 Ini or Attack or such would have been something.

But that aside, there is a lot of dissatisfaction with this codex and much of the dislike for lesser daemons stems from the impression that 4.0 chaos has lost much of its character and flavour, in that it has become overly restricted in both background and rules and that army selection is very formulaic and lacking in customisability.
You can point out that 3.5 was unbalanced and overly complicated, and you would be right - to a degree. However, this does not take from the fact that this unbalanced, overly complicated mess of a book most adequately and pleasingly depicted Chaos on the tabletop than any codex I can remember. And I was honoured to play it.
I recall a time when EC could play Iron Warriors and the difference between the 2 forces was more than just a paint scheme.

Ugh ... Anyway.

Check this out, if anyone's interested:

BolterandChainsword +CODEX: CHAOS RENEGADES PROJECT+ (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showforum=145)

ReveredChaplainDrake
20-02-2009, 04:49
Just curious, what model do most of you use for your lesser demons? I thinking of bloodletters.
I use Beastmen of Chaos. 20 models with slots, plus they come with some spiffy looking banners that you will surely need in droves if you plan on seriously fielding Daemons. All you need are 20 slottabases and you've got a full squad of Lessers right there.

I would say that Lessers can be quite powerful, but if you use at least one Lash of Submission. Even if you have Chosen, it's pretty hard to get an Icon forward by the top of Turn 2, and with the assurance that it won't get shredded. The true point of Daemons (both Lesser and Greater, for that matter) is that they can't be responded to between when they land and when they hit. If you truly want to guarantee that Lesser Daemons will land down someplace where they'll matter, you need a Lash to ensure that they'll be in range for a charge at something that can't handle them. (It's the same principle behind Lashsorcs joining Mech-zerkers.)

I'm principally against the Lesser Daemons because (1) I'm not a fan of Lash spam, and (2) the Lesser Daemons being in Reserves kills them for me because I'd rather have Chaos Marines around on Turn 1 where I know that they're under my control, rather than sinking my points into something that can wind up totally misplaced with one single bad roll.

ChaosVC
20-02-2009, 07:11
Thanks for the advice, I don't intend to use a Demon prince as my first HQ choice because I like the Chaos Termi lord model which looked so much cooler.

As you have pointed it out, lesser daemons getting summoned at the right spot especially by chosen is quite unlikely and probably using them as reserves trooper kind of defeat the purpose of bringing them. As many had mentioned before, the effectiveness for lesser demon to play an important role in the game is circumstantial and can be ver luck dependent, nnother sqaud of mybe PM or CSM may probably prove to be more cost effective.
All advice are great and I really appreciated them.

Unfortunately for me...I love varity and asthetics fluff, and adding lesser daemons to my army make my Chaos Space marines more Chaosy. So I am going to take them. :p I hope I can use them to their maximum potential and see if I can contribute in stating their usefulness in the games in the future.;)

killfrenzy
20-02-2009, 07:39
What a very diplomatic answer ....

jubilex
20-02-2009, 08:05
edit:To those who are offended because I call space marine spaz malines, loosen up a bit.
:)
I occasionally get myself into trouble calling a certain fanboy staple "waste of space urine!!!"
It's great fun to destroy mastur, err I mean terminators.
Yes I did say that your termie lord is a "willy wonker!"

I hope I haven't offended anyone too much. :angel:



Again, for crying out loud, we are not comparing LD's to the other troop choices.
No?
If not, why not??
Didn't I just read a list that did exactly that???

It seems to me, that lesser daemons are so sub standard, that debates like this exist (irrespective of what they were in the last dex).

I remember spitting my dummy and overturning the pram about this a while ago.
"Lesser daemons are usefull!!!"
The fact that people feel the need to state that, about a unit that you pay points for is extraordinary!

But, an army list is, in some ways a competition in itself.
If you don't just want a fluffy farce, but would like a fluffy force, lesser (how appropriate) daemons have to be compared with everything else.

"What do I want to achieve, what's the best way to go about it?"
At that point, for me, daemons fall way behind.

But, the cookie crumbles into dust, when I am advised that a unit could be taken, in order to get shot, when each model is worth 2 points less than a chaos space marine that could do the same job and a whole host* of others!

*No offence meant to parasites.

DhaosAndy
20-02-2009, 11:40
When I first read the codex I thought, waste of time, for 2 more points I get a CSM. The CSM will be better at almost everything, he won't be fearless, but he'll be as good in combat and better at shooting than the daemon. He has armour (he can even have the inv save).

Now IMHO the useful squad size for both units is about the same, circa 10 models (nice round figure). So lets build the CSM's as a useful squad; they need a rhino, an icon, a champion and a couple of special weapons, or a heavy and a special weapon. So now we're up to 10 - 14 points per model more for the CSM's than for the daemons. The same sum also works for units of cult troops, they all end up costing 230 - 300 pts for a usefully tooled up squad in a rhino.

Now that gives a more accurate comparison, virtually 2 daemons to 1 CSM. Of course the CSM is, taken in isolation, still better than the two daemons, but niether operates in isolation, they operate as part of a whole. If that whole includes rhino mounted squads, infiltrators, bikes, raptors, etc. All with icons, then 2 x 10 model squads of lesser daemons can be more useful than another rhino mounted squad of CSM's.

They work particularly well with bikes because you can boost the bikes into a threatening position, your opponent must move to counter not only the bikes, but also the daemons. If he doesn't and the daemons show up, instant turned flank, if he does, then you can boost away leaving the daemons to tie up a unit, blocking fire lanes, etc. If the daemons don't show simply boost away, rinse, repeat.

You can basically present your opponent with multiple threats, with no surety as to their intensity or direction. Thus daemons can give you one thing CSM's can't, tempo or tactical initiative.

They don't always work, but then nothing in this game always works, curse the cubic randomisers. :D

Sanctjud
20-02-2009, 18:12
@killfrenzy

“A units value is its function relative to the army that its a member of and relative to other competing units of similar role in said army.”

Similar is not a word I would use. The only similarity in role is scoring, but each is used completely differently, not a great way of comparing two things that work, operate, and work best differently.

You may not like the 20 lessers, and the 10 man in rhino is a decent buy, but it’s how you play… and well… why not try something new… for flavor or trying stuff.
I look at this game holistically…variety is the spice of life, if you never try something out to the full extent you never know what you are missing.

Mobility: The rhino can be stopped temporarily or permanently, it can die, and it can explode, hurting CSM and maybe pinning them.
It’s worth an additional kill point. Mobility is measure differently, they don’t have as much freedom as the lesser daemons in terms of getting places.

Durability: Again, the rhino can fail. Then they either cover hop, or have to run in the open… Seriously, there are MANY cases where a 5++ would be more desireable than a 3+ armor, just as many situations were you would want a 3+ over a 5++. Lesser daemons are 100% protected til they come out… CSM can’t say that.

CSM get the range fire, but you are in a rhino and don’t shoot anyway and scoot forward…then the effective turn to shoot is turn 2, where the LD’s come in.
CSM double tap, while LD’s can charge in. Both are nice, but LD’s can lock a unit and prevent them from shooting, prob. more useful to you than double tapping a bit.

Note, the usage of BOTH is pretty good.

” acheiving something of value every turn.” Yea, moving a rhino up is valuable/target/armor satuation is good and all, but the CSM aren’t doing anything of value at that moment, much like the lesser daemons.
So turn 2 comes around, you may or may not drive up, unload, and double tap something… many variables.
Lesser Daemons can come in or not. Coming in turn 2 is pretty nice to tie things up, if they don’t…next round will be easier to get to units deeper in the enemy deployment zone.
Both CSM and LD have similar situations in which they DON’T necessarily achieve ‘something of value every turn’.
And that’s just you. Some people are willing to pay the Opportunity Cost for a later entry: like fresh troops into a pivotal fight, or fresh troops to take a turn or two of shooting going to ground on an objective, while the summoners take the fight to the enemy to hold off anything trying to contest the obj where the lD’s are on… something like that.

”Yes, you have a large amount of bodies, but all the 20 lessers will really achieve is to temporarily inconvenience some of the enemy through holding them in assault or blocking lines of fire.”

And for some people/lists… those things are HUGE issues. And it’s not temporary, there’s at least 3-4 rounds of combat in them, rolling 60 dice have a quality of its own.

You expect a lot from 260 points… but I see they are a steal for what they can do.

It’s not just ‘general’ tarpit. It depends on WHAT you are tarpitting.
Eldrad/Avatar, banshees, stealers, MC’s.
You get to makes charges CSM can’t do, and steal the initiative from units that would really rather have the charge ( ie: ork boyz, anything with furious charge, chappy units, anything with low amount of attacks)

Also, 20 CSM can’t appear in the middle of the board or deeper into enemy territory.
They start on the board, a large footprint, most likely moving through difficult terrain, and running around. They can be shot at, and they are not fearless so if it can happen it will… fallback is an issue ( and there are ways to lower ld and force lots of ld /pinning/ morale test.
3+ saves are not everything, with a 20 man squad, you’ll need 10 or 11 guys in cover, or you’ll not get cover saves.
With the large footprint you can be clipped… though you get a 6” reaction… you can still be clipped… the old 4thed kind of clipping.

Only 40 points more…. Well, the Chaos list is points intensive, that 40 points can go to something else that can be useful…
(ie, Fist champ, 4 melta guns, 8 termy combi-plasma, a terminator with 10 points of gear, 2 daemon possessions on vehicles, 2 marks of nurlge or something on HQs, a daemon weapon somewhere, or a pychic power on HQs… even an extra rhino somewhere, even a spawn.

I used to think of the old and compare to the new and get disgusted…. But here’s the thing… you can’t do anything about it… the daemon codex came out… and what we have is what we have.
Move on.

Daemonettes vs Light vehicles: These LD’s can still glance most rear armor 10, the daemonettes of the REAL deamons can reach Av 12, but that requires the 6 and then 5+, but they are different, LD’s are tougher, and Nettes are faster…ugn, I’m not getting into it.
Letters were seriously OTT in the past. Power armor with power weapons…. Please, we were Spoiled in the past… that’s why so many people **** and moan about the change.

I’m only saying move on, see past all this whining and you’ll see a functional unit, you don’t have to like it, but It’s the dismissal that’s annoying, it sounds more like inexperience with the unit in question rather than from an objective point of view… (objective read: trying them out and seeing how far they go in a consistent manner).

”The least that could have been in this codex is to have allowed the player to mark his daemons. Even +1 Ini or Attack or such would have been something.”

I agree with that, but it’s a wish and doesn’t help further anything.

@ReveredChaplainDrake

Beastmen: nice economical approach.

I find it hilarious lash is everywhere and makes everything that much …… more full of ass, in a good way, sort of:
Dude: “spawn, possessed, lesser daemons suck.”
******: “I’m bringing lash”
Dude: “They ROCK!”

Lesser daemons are FUNCTION even with out lash. Like you will see later, it’s a pretty big sphere of influence a single icon can make, and generally Personal Icons and IoCG are cheap, so you can have plenty. Though there’s no guarantee they come in Turn2, later makes it even better and easier to get off charges.

1. I’m not a fan either, but I’m not in the boat that it’s necessary to make Lessers work.
2. There is no ‘misplace’, you have icons that don’t scatter. Also being in reserves keeps them utterly protected til they come out. Then come out where you need them and can charge out of it… not like they can do what they do starting on the board.

@ChaosVC:

Yes, termy lord is full of cool… and sadly the only reason I’d use him…if only they were on the same power level as the Daemon Princes…

I find cost effective a funny word to describe the other choices.
The other choices have inflated cost when you get champs and weapons and rhinos.
The LD’s are cheaper, pack a save that’s good to tie up stuff chaos generally don’t want to deal with, and don’t fuss with all the extra things to buy ( like guns, champs, and more importantly a rhino.)

Summoning is DAMN power full.
In a rhino, you have a larger sphere of influence… you get 6.9” to deploy, (depending on 10 man or 20 man squads) you get 2-3 rings, then an additional 6” for the charge.
That’s the possibility of a 14.9 – 15.9 charge range from the hull of a rhino for the lesser daemons.
ANY OTHER TROOP OPTION, can not pull that off. They can lock down a unit from shooting earlier and pull them into combat and make them pile in, to make OTHER CHARGES in the next round even more viable….. with out the usage of lash.

“Unfortunately for me...I love varity and asthetics fluff, and adding lesser daemons to my army make my Chaos Space marines more Chaosy. So I am going to take them. I hope I can use them to their maximum potential”

Bravo, I applaud you. If you do use them to their maximum potential they can be invaluable. They might suck in stats, fluff, flavor, but they can still win you the game and/or do something another option would not have been able to do.

@Jubilex

Yes, it does seem like they are substandard, but it’s usage over what the stats look like. Again… if you don’t like the ‘narrow vision’ comment, then you are not looking at this unit creatively.

I need to state it, because most people saw the LD’s and wrote them off from the beginning… and I did as well.
Then I actually used them for more than a handful of games, experimenting with 8/10/14/20 man squads.
I’m talking from experience from experiments… and they’ve grown on me…

So looking from experience, I was one of those that HATED lesser daemons for what they lost… but I find it’s useless to compare them to the past… they are what they are now, move on.

Yes, I’ve championed the “doesn’t fit all play styles.”
I’m only trying to give a different/fresh/experience laced view on the subject of lesser daemons.
Some people write them off so easily, I just don’t think those people actually use them, or have any imagination… it’s just not always about the statline.

”I am advised that a unit could be taken, in order to get shot, when each model is worth 2 points less than a chaos space marine…”

Then you were advised poorly. They ‘CAN’ do that role, but there’s a list of things they can do that are a lot more useful.. and there are things other units in the troop section CAN’T ever do.

@DhaosAndy

That’s exactly the same situation I went through… I thought they sucked, wrote them off… I give them a chance and they were pretty cool and fun and DIFFERENT for a change from the competitive kind of builds.

About the rhino squad: exactly, you have an inflated cost to make that unit an all rounder…. Which is fine, which is good.
But the lesser daemons don’t have to hassle with that and add a different element with other uses.
And don’t have to inflate the Kill points by 2 (the rhino), only 1.
Certainly you’d have to use both in concert, the issue only arises when you are expanding say…. From 1000 or 1500 to some higher limit.

Yes target saturation is the word these days I believe for the later half of your post.

My 7 Cents.

ReveredChaplainDrake
20-02-2009, 20:41
@ReveredChaplainDrake

Beastmen: nice economical approach.

I find it hilarious lash is everywhere and makes everything that much …… more full of ass, in a good way, sort of:
Dude: “spawn, possessed, lesser daemons suck.”
******: “I’m bringing lash”
Dude: “They ROCK!”
Sadly, not even Lash can make Spawn not suck. They're just that bad.


Lesser daemons are FUNCTION even with out lash. Like you will see later, it’s a pretty big sphere of influence a single icon can make, and generally Personal Icons and IoCG are cheap, so you can have plenty. Though there’s no guarantee they come in Turn2, later makes it even better and easier to get off charges.

1. I’m not a fan either, but I’m not in the boat that it’s necessary to make Lessers work.
Lash doesn't make them function, as if they didn't before, as much as it crutches Lesser Daemons to appearing in Lash-spam lists. And like most Slaaneesh things (remember Siren?), Lashes become very addictive to powergamers. Anything that encourages the uses of more Lashes is detrimental to the already terrible internal balance of the CSM Codex because it necessarily makes other very viable choices look even worse by comparison to the Lash.

I don't like the Double-Lash because I just can't go without a Chronoprince. So sue me if I think a Daemon Prince should actually be able to beat up a Hive Tyrant for once.


2. There is no ‘misplace’, you have icons that don’t scatter. Also being in reserves keeps them utterly protected til they come out. Then come out where you need them and can charge out of it… not like they can do what they do starting on the board.
While the Daemons don't scatter, the Icon-holding units are often thrown in some very awkward places, such as turbo-boost Bikers and Chosen who run into enemy charge ranges, awaiting a possible second-turn summoning. Deliberately jeopardizing valuable units like these on Turn 1 is not worth the slight chance of getting around 260 pts of Lesser Daemons into place, from what I've experienced. Failure to do so can often result in losing the game, unless your opponent is massively unlucky or has no idea what they're doing. And as I said, I would rather invest that 260 pts into something I know will be where I want it to be, when I want it to be there.

Levett
20-02-2009, 21:25
Daemons fill a crucial hole in the CSM list. Cheap objective grabbers. Put a unit of these into cover on an objective and you'll be fine. They are FAR superior to standard CSM at holding objectives purely due to having the following:

- 3+ Cover when getting to ground means no loss in ranged firepower, where as CSM will obviously have a negative to this
- 5+ Invulnerable stops elite units with mass power weapons trampling over them.
- Are fearless. This is the crucial one. CSM are at risk from running, even with an IoCG, where as the daemons will hold until the last man dies.

There are no official models for lesser daemons, which if you want to be 'cheesy' can lead to some interesting concepts. (I personally use Ghouls for mine with wires and vox casters built into them... they are tiny lol).

Sanctjud
20-02-2009, 21:44
If you check on the GW page, they've defined them there.

Also, cheap objective grabbers is all good and fun, but I don't think that's their primary objective. I feel they are more like 'objective grabbers of oppurtunity'. Like if they fail to come in turn 2 and 3, they are most likely grabbing objs at turn 4 and 5.

If early they sow disorder, tarpit, locking/hold, distraction, provide cover, lend help, impassible infantry wall, etc. other roles.

My 7 Cents.

volair
20-02-2009, 22:16
They have no function that plague marines or berserkers couldn't do better. Trying to take an objective? Plaguemarines are better. Trying to eliminate enemy units in close combat? Berserkers do it better. You can make up tactics about how deamons can tarpit units or some nonsense, but your army is not going to be as good if you take lesser deamons instead of berserkers or plaguemarines. If you don't believe me, try it. Take two demon princes, some obliterators, and then just take plague marines and/or berserkers, and your army will be much better than this imaginary army that is in your head with all of those much thought about, but practically useless, tactics. Yes if I designed the chaos codex, I would have done more to give the army more variety, but as it is, to take anything else is to indubitably, and unconditionally, lower the effectiveness of the army. That isn't the way I want it to be, but it is the truth, like it or not.

DhaosAndy
20-02-2009, 22:41
volair: "They have no function that plague marines or berserkers couldn't do better."

Please explain how plague marines or berserkers can assault a unit 30" away from your deployment zone on turn 2.

I believe I've found something that niether plague marines or berserkers can do better than daemons, or indeed do at all ;)

ReveredChaplainDrake
20-02-2009, 23:20
Please explain how plague marines or berserkers can assault a unit 30" away from your deployment zone on turn 2.

Easy. I do this trick all the time with Berserkers.

Berserkers go in Land Raider. Land Raider deploys 12" forward. Enemy deploys 6" forward. Target is 30" away.

Turn 1:
-Land Raider moves 12" forward. Pop smoke.

Turn 2:
-Land Raider moves 12" forward.
-Troops disembark 2.9999..."
-Charge 6"

12"+12"+2.99999....."+6"= 32.99999....."

Unless you can knock out the smoke-covered Land Raider in one turn, you'll get charged from over 32" away in two turns. Killing a couple forward Icons is much easier than killing a smoked Land Raider. And even if the smoked LR dies, the Khorne Berserkers will mostly survive, never be entangled, and will be in easy charge range of most enemies anyway. If not, Lash fixes everything.

Incidentally, so as not to strawman the argument, Daemons can charge further than 30" without Lash support.

Turn 1:
-Turboboost Bikes 24"

Turn 2:
-Drop Daemons 6" away
-Daemons materialize about 2-3 rings closer, appx 2-3" extra
-Charge 6"

38-39" away on Turn 2. But, as I said, killing an Icon hiding in a turbo-squad of bikes isn't as hard as putting down a Land Raider.

killfrenzy
20-02-2009, 23:38
Sanctjud, restating what you've said before does not make it more compelling. But if you like repitition ..

Assault: berzerkers are better.
Deep strike: raptors are better. (@Dhaosandy)
Tarpit: plague marines are better.
General/objective grabber: CSM unit of similar size to daemons is always going to be better, in terms of flexibility and capability.

Furthermore, none of these units are dependent upon the presence of icons and none of these are particularily vulnerable to massed firepower as lessers are.

Again, I will state that the value of a unit to an army -and therefore its desirability to be included- is not reflected in its own abilities, but in those abilities when contrasted with the abilities of other units in the same army.

The only thing that I am prepared to allow is that lessers are the cheapest infantry in the chaos codex and so could appear in large numbers.
They are, however, only 2pts less than a CSM.
There is no circumstance that I can envisage taking lessers over CSMs when the 2 are so closely priced. They just aren't competitive in this regard.

Lesser daemons remain an inferior choice in the face of other 4.0 units, many of which are themselves flawed.

Random possessed?
Loss of alignment of a CSM unit when their Icon is shot off?
The existence of chaos spawn, a useless, pointless, overpriced unit?
Etc.

You may be inclined to defend 4.0 on the lines of it being the official codex and there being no alternative but to use it; however this is not the case.
In the link I gave above, it demonstrates that many people are simply refusing to play with a codex that denys them their enjoyment of their favourite army, or denys them the use of their favourite troops, and so have chosen to create their own rules.
They may not be balanced, and in many cases not very well thought out, but they indicate the popular opinion of this codex; lacking.

Much of this feeling, as I've already stated, is as a direct result of the impression that the "chaos" in CSMs is being actively downplayed, and that the army is now simply a representation of loyalists in chaos drag, almost completely lacking anything "daemonic" in favour of pure MEQ.

Some, such as the OP, recognise the inherent crapness of the troop type, yet still use it because of what they are; daemons - the character of the army and a source of its identity. I am one of these myself: I have 12 pointless daemonettes in my army.

I think that GW have, surprisingly, actually noticed this trend and have responded well; in that the latest loyalist codex actually seems to allow more customization of your force than the chaos one, ironically leading many of my peers to use it for their own forces. Hopefully when the next installment of chaos inevitably rolls around, much of these problems will have been fixed. In the meantime however ...

One is not forced to use official rules if one does not choose to.

Given some spare time and a reasonable opponent (any friend of yours should be accomodating should they call themselves such) one can make up this lack through house-ruling something like the folowing, something really simple that took me about 5 mins:

Give lesser daemons mark of khorne: +1 att, 10pts/model
Give lesser daemons mark of slaanesh: +1 Ini, 5pts/model
Give lesser daemons mark of nurgle: +1 T, 8pts/model
Give lesser daemons mark of tzeentch: 4+ INV, 10pts/model

It doesn't improve them much, but at least it gives them some personality and abilities that CSMs don't completely exceed them in.

Personally, I would prefer the "footsoldier" troop types to be transplanted entirely from codex: daemons, with appropriate rules and points modifications, to allow you plaguebearers with feel no pain, low Ini etc, daemonettes with rending, bloodletters with powqer weapons and so on.

These troop types are so characterful that I cannot quite grasp why CSM are denied them.
And they are being denied them; you don't take -and don't respect- a unit that is ineffective on the battlefield.

Penitent Engine
20-02-2009, 23:55
Great. Now we've gone from a debate about the usefulness of Lesser Daemons to a full on slogfest AND gotten stuck on the tired old topic of "4.0 is crap". Get-over-it!! :rolleyes:

If you like Lesser Daemons, take them (incidentally, they are GREAT against Banshees & Arco Flagellants).
If you don't, don't.
If you REALLY like Daemons, play Daemons.

Shamfrit
20-02-2009, 23:58
Has no-one considered the idea of running into combat with your Berserkers, and dropping Lesser Daemons immediately behind the unit engaged, so if it flees, it ain't going nowhere?

EDIT: Sorry, 40k/fantasy cross-over brainfart. Ignore me.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 00:05
We've been through this and it's not getting to Volair... if he doesn't want to comprihend any of the points we are putting forward, it's just gonna end up being a Death Spiral.

Just to entertain you Volair:

Lesser daemons:
can take power weapon equivelnt better than PM and Zerkers.
cheaper than PM and zerkers.
No fuss about rhinos and special weapons and champions.
Can make charges PMs and Zerkers can't.
LD's score objectives cheaply and don't have the same oppurtinunty cost as squatting zerkers on an objective.
Taking the initiative is better vs orks, getting the charge on them is key, zerkers don't usually get to do that (lash aside).

"your army is not going to be as good " Do you have any evidence..? How can you make that statement if you have no experience with it.

It’s like… you say the World is Flat, yet you don’t take a ship to the edge and find out it’s round.
Close minded is what it is.

I've played:
2 DP, wings
30 Pms in 3 rhino with 3 champs 4 Melta guns and 2 flamers
6 oblits
ever since the new dex was out.

And I'm still finding the lesser daemons fit really well at 1850...much better than my raptors actually.

I’ve played a fun list to test out the lesser daemons:
1500 with 60 lesser daemons, 2 squads of 20 and 2 squads of 10, to maximize the number of situation I can experience, and they provide you with good momentum when they come in.

_______________________

Anyway, DhaosAndy, nicely put, that's what I've been trying to put forth. It's not a straight forward view, it's a creative view point...some people just don't see/want that kind of way of wargaming.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 00:19
@ReveredChaplainDrake:

LR + zerkers.. now we are talking about a Hvy support and Troopers, that can be neutralized, I’m saying LD’s can only be neutralized when all the icons are gone, and since they are numerous and cheap, it’s pretty much if the whole army is dead to neutralize them.

Also, you forgot the .99 on the ‘drop daeons part’, but not for the zerkers.
Also, LR’s don’t ‘fit’ in all list just like LD’s… and we are getting away from squad vs squad… but when we start army vs army lists…we won’t get anywhere.

@Killfrenzy:
You missed my point entirely Killfrenzy, it was to say there is a different way of looking at it, that makes lesser daemons more desirable, just as it is desierable to look at the other cult units at face value.

What I’m trying to add is a view ‘outside the box’… but it seems there’s lots of hate for it.

Icons are cheap and numerous, it adds to the flexibility of the unit. So the icons can be vulnerable… same can be said of the rhino squad with a busted rhino.

Also, you did not address the 20 ld vs. 20 CSM, the 20 CSM have nice stats and gear, but have their cons as well.

Now you are getting ranting on the codex, I agree with some, but you are just ranting and getting away from the issue.

Possessed are decent, it depends on role: Counter assault, so no matter what you roll it won’t hurt the over all plan.
Spawn are all that… but in my games… they are rock stars…same as possessed.

All I’m saying is that you need to give them chances… to use them more than a handful of games, so you know how far they can go, and not expect the world from them.
All other choices are shiny, but it doesn’t necesarly make them a crap choice.

If you got a 99% on a test, and some one else got 100%, would you treat the 99% as crap, of course not.
Back on the ‘wish list’ I’m not addressing it… it’s not helpful and nothing will come of it.

@Penitent Engine:
Thank you, I would second your post.
I’m just trying to put down a different view point on it….but people are opposed to something that can work.

@Shamfrit The Narroq:
That’s interesting, it would require a decent run move, and less than 1” between their bases… something that sounds cool, but may not come up.
But I’ll keep it in mind, cool stuff.

My 7 Cents.

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 00:32
killfrenzy: "Deep strike: raptors are better."

How so?

2/3 of the time they'll scatter (less accurate), they'll have to run on the turn they land in order to avoid being massacred by template/blast weapons (thus negatng their shooting), they can't assault on the turn they land (so turn 3 is the earliest they can be in assault), they aren't troops (so they can only contest objestives).

Finally, and not a trivial point, the tooled up squad of raptors costs about twice as much as a unit of daemons.

At the end of the day I don't like the 4.0 dex any more than you do (read the bloody sig) I dubbed it TWD (that wretched document) and I stand by that.

I like to play in tournaments which means I have to endure the official list, that's life. [shrugs]

@ ReveredChaplainDrake: Yeah I set the bar too low on that didn't I. Still, couple of points;

The LR + the zerkers is a huge chunk of any army, at least 25% of a 2000 pt force.

In my experience most competative lists can stop 1 LR and make a significant dent in the contents or evade them. Furthermore they have little compunction about doing so since they are clearly the main threat.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I find that my opponents cope better with a single obvious threat rather than the multiple threats posed by bikes and rhino mounted squads closing on their lines. Bear in mind that the only units in my army that don't have icons are the ones that can't have them.

On the subject of the Lash, I don't use it, for the same reason I didn't use a siren speed prince under 3.5, but that's just me (I don't want to create units just to have them negated by the next codex to come out, all my armies are chaos and the're all long term projects).

ReveredChaplainDrake
21-02-2009, 01:09
@ReveredChaplainDrake:

LR + zerkers.. now we are talking about a Hvy support and Troopers, that can be neutralized, I’m saying LD’s can only be neutralized when all the icons are gone, and since they are numerous and cheap, it’s pretty much if the whole army is dead to neutralize them.

Also, you forgot the .99 on the ‘drop daeons part’, but not for the zerkers.
Also, LR’s don’t ‘fit’ in all list just like LD’s… and we are getting away from squad vs squad… but when we start army vs army lists…we won’t get anywhere.
When some are advocating using Daemons in quantities as large as 20 in a list (@ 260pts) I don't think a Land Raider is harder to fit in a list than Daemons, unless you run out of Heavy choices. Which I suspect is the main problem. I'm not as in love with Oblits and other Heavies as other players, and I just don't like Predators and Vindicators. My playstyle is conforming more and more to that of my Night Lords, and rapid assaults with mech Marines and minimal static units is what they do.

I've tried mech Marines + Daemons, and personally I'd rather have the extra Rhino squad or the Land Raider over 20 Daemons any day. When you're putting on that kind of fast pressure, Daemons are redundant. They're much better when using a static gunline against an elite assault horde (eg Nidzilla).


The LR + the zerkers is a huge chunk of any army, at least 25% of a 2000 pt force.

In my experience most competative lists can stop 1 LR and make a significant dent in the contents or evade them. Furthermore they have little compunction about doing so since they are clearly the main threat.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I find that my opponents cope better with a single obvious threat rather than the multiple threats posed by bikes and rhino mounted squads closing on their lines. Bear in mind that the only units in my army that don't have icons are the ones that can't have them.
The LR + Zerkers may be about 500pts of a 2000 pt game, but Lesser Daemons and the icon-bearing units necessary to bring them in safely will probably eat up more. For a list serious about summoning Lesser Daemons, you could expect to spend about 250 each per Icon-toting Rhino squad of CSMs (of which you need two to fulfill Troops requirements), 10 chosen for another 250, five Bikes for about 200, and of course your Daemons. Just 10 is another 130. Add that altogether and it's well over 1000 pts... to set up a landing for 10 Lesser Daemons. Not only does the 10x Berserker Spearhead stand relatively alone, but they leave far more points for the rest of the list.

When you want to talk about the ability of the opponent to take out the Land Raider, first of all Lascannons are phasing out of pre-written lists more and more these days, thanks to the mere thought of facing Orks causing players to look at Flamers and Heavy Bolters in a new light. Thus, the amount of anti-tank guns available to be thrown at a Land Raider from your average opponent is minimal. Second, even if they do take out the Land Raider, you're talking about 2000 pts being thrown at 500 pts and maybe killing it. If you want to make the comparison more fair, if they have 2000 pts to respond to the Berserker Spearhead, I want at least one of my Lash Princes to respond to their 2000-pt army, not to mention the 1500-pts worth of mechanized Marines flanking the Rhino that will likely be much easier to knock out than the LR.

Wolflord Havoc
21-02-2009, 01:27
Hello fellow humans that got sucked and hooked into the world of GW Enterprising money grabbing, toy selling land of toy soldiers.

One Nooby noob question to ask about Chaos spaz malines.
Do you think a list with say.


Chaos Lordz
7 chosen
10 chaos spaz malines with Heavy Bolter and plasma gun. powder fizt
10 chaos spaz malines with Heavy bolter and flame thrower. powder fizt
12 B.Zerkers! powder fizt
10 lesser Demons.

Any Da good? Should I drop the lesser demons?

Any advise and tactical briefing about making balance Chaos Spaz Malines army is greatly appreciated! :chrome:

Wow! (Inserts babel fish into ear for translation) Oh I see! :p

Right then.

Yes - they are good - for the following reasons.

They allow you to reinforce your army at a chosen point.

They are fearless!

They are relatively cheap!

And I tend to take them in smaller squads of 5 - as this gives a much better chance of getting some of them in turn 2 as well as some of them still available as reinforcments in turn 3 etc.

They also allow for a greater model count than 'just' space marines.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 01:35
@ReveredChaplainDrake:

I will concede the point that their service to a player is based on play style, I'm just noting they are entirely functional. As functional as a LR + zerkers.
As for anti-LR in the metagaming district: melta gun equivalents...which can entirely be spammed.

@Wolflord Havoc:
Nice post to restate the OP's post. Simple and clear of what things LDs get a leg up on.

My 7 Cents.

Wolflord Havoc
21-02-2009, 01:40
@ReveredChaplainDrake:


@Wolflord Havoc:
Nice post to restate the OP's post. Simple and clear of what things LDs get a leg up on.

My 7 Cents.

No worries - I started reading the whole thread but my eyes started to bleed :angel:

killfrenzy
21-02-2009, 01:42
@Killfrenzy:
You missed my point entirely Killfrenzy, it was to say there is a different way of looking at it, that makes lesser daemons more desirable, just as it is desierable to look at the other cult units at face value.

Oh, I understand you; you think defending lesser daemons is somehow to be cool and different by facing down mob opinion.

It's not about populism vs. unconventionalism. My points still stand that lessers are uncompetitive.

Now lets repeat ourselves ad nauseam before one of us gives up ....


killfrenzy: "Deep strike: raptors are better."

How so?

2/3 of the time they'll scatter (less accurate), they'll have to run on the turn they land in order to avoid being massacred by template/blast weapons (thus negatng their shooting), they can't assault on the turn they land (so turn 3 is the earliest they can be in assault), they aren't troops (so they can only contest objestives).

Finally, and not a trivial point, the tooled up squad of raptors costs about twice as much as a unit of daemons.

Good points.
Lets compare and contrast the two units capabilities in a battle where they both DS.

Say a unit of 20 daemons - 260 pts
Versus a unit of raptors, 13-strong - 260pts

Deployment:
Daemons need a an icon, or can't appear. When appearing, they can't move but can run and assault 6".
This means you'd need either bikers or raptors to ensure a turn-of-arrival assault. Hiking your investment of points up to 300-400pts; just to get daemons into combat on their 1st turn.
Raptors may deep strike, but do not need an icon; if there is an icon it can be used as a teleport homer if you so wish, making them as accurate as daemons. With regard to movement, I don't have a copy of 5th edition on me ATM, so please someone fill me in on DSing troops with regard to the shooting and assault phase. (And also on whether they can use teleport homers)

If it is like the previous edition, then they may presumably shoot but not assault.

So far, raptors retain superiority in ability in that they are not dependent upon the existence of icons for their appearance, so you're guaranteed their use in the battle. They also have a longer reach on turn of arrival thanks to their ranged weaponry. There are, however 7 less models.

Winner: Raptors (barely).

Movement:
Daemons, on their 2nd turn get to move 6".
Raptors, on their 2nd turn (providing they've DSed) get to move 12", ignoring terrain effects.

Winner: Raptors.

Shooting:
Daemons can't shoot, but may run - giving them slightly more speed.
Raptors have 12" bolt pistol, deadly to Guard (lol), which may rapid fire.
In this case, however, since you've got no specials, you won't be shooting.

Against shooting, Daemons have a 1 in 3 chance of surviving every wound they suffer.
Raptors have the same T, so it is a direct comparison to say that they will, with their 3+ save, survive twice the amount of damage that daemons will.
Against low Ap weapons, the daemon's saves remain nevertheless.

Winner: Raptors. (In the majority of circumstances)

Assault:
20 Daemons vs. MEQs, 40 attacks (60 on the charge - yikes!), 50 % will hit; of those, 50% will wound; of which 66% will be saved - meaning 3-4 or 5 guaranteed on-average kills.
13 Raptors get 26 attacks (39 on the charge) which works out to 2-3 or 4 guaranteed on-average kills.

Raptors only one kill behind daemons.

With regard to fearlessness, the raptors -if they lose- would run away.

But keep in mind that this scenario does not iclude anybody with a power weapon. If the raptors swapped out one marine for a AC upgrade with a power weapon they would equal or exceed the capability of daemons.

Now, contrary to what Sanctjud has previously been saying, I can see daemons being useful -in a large swarm- against such things as Guard or orks whose only strength is in numbers and when faced in assault with a horde of marine-statted daemons, will falter. Daemons are a specialised troop type designed to be fielded in large numbers and to excel in assault against mediocre enemies only when in large numbers.

About the only strength of these lessers is to field them in numbers.

But they are not cheap enough for that.

And are they even unique in this regard? You can say about every trooptype that they're "more effective in large numbers". It's a redundant argument.

When CSMs themselves are 15 pts each and have far more options and capabilities (rhino transport, assault kit, long range kit, etc) there isn't a challenge to see who will take what.

If GW are to redo C:CSMs but keep the lessers for some reason, my recommendation would be to reduce their points cost. This would make it more feasible to field them in large numbers and would represent a clearer choice between them and CSMs.

Even 10pts each; they might be good then.

killfrenzy
21-02-2009, 01:58
@Sanctjud:


Lesser daemons:
can take power weapon equivelnt better than PM and Zerkers.

Did I read this right?

Daemons can't have power weapons!

Outside the daemon codex and my wishful thinking, that is ...

@wolf:


They are relatively cheap!

With the emphasis on "relatively" ...

ShadowDeth
21-02-2009, 02:17
Sanctjud is 100% correct.

Comparing numbers in a vacuum is what poor players do.

Intelligent players compare units within the context of a codex on the whole.

*Daemons have 5++
*Daemons can deploy roughly anywhere they want to without drifting
*Daemons can hold objectives
*Daemons have comparable assault stats to unmarked CSM
*Daemons present no footprint until they are ready to get to work
*Daemons can be 36-39 inches up the field by turn 2's assault phase (12 inch deployment, 12 inch rhino move, 6 inch icon deep strike, variable "ring" inches depending on unit size, 6 inch assault)

In response to the "They excel at nothing anything else in the book does", I say read my above reasons, or Sanctjud's more written out replies.

Here's why I think players are souring on Daemons though : they don't take units of 15-20. Units of 5 fold when looked at. Units of 10 are meatier, sure - but they still run the issues of having guard saves and taking fearless checks to lose numbers - essentially folding in the middle of combats.

However larger squads of Daemons LOSE COMBAT LESS FREQUENTLY, and THUS DON'T GET OVERRUN. This is a big point, so I used a big font.

If you throw 60 dice at someone, you win combat. I don't care what their saves are or what defensive abilities they have, 60 Space marine attacks can break whatever it wants eventually if not immediately. This is coming from my experience using very similar Fenrisian hounds in my 13th company lists, and they only threw 45 attacks. Also in a very similar manner, their superior movement allows them to plug holes where necessary - and that isn't something that can be measured only with raw point values. Combat tricks are usually worth paying more for than straight forward numbers. (I know they cost 2 points less than a CSM and are statistically inferior, but they also do a lot of "different" things for being 2 points cheaper.)

And then when you factor in the 5++, and the 4 toughness, I think Lesser Daemons are a bit under priced for what they bring to the codex. Being overrun is a big issue with Daemons, because with their paper thin saves, every fearless check hurts.

A simple way around this drawback of the new "Daemonic Instability" is to..... win combat.

It's really that simple.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 02:22
@killfrenzy:

Sorry it's a typo... it's meant to say Lesser daemons 'TAKE ON power weapon equivenet blah blah blah".

To the initial lines:
There no way to develope an idea if everyone just agrees. Opposition is useful to try and explain my view on things.

A small note:

"they can't move but can run OR assault 6"." Corrected.

"if there is an icon it can be used as a teleport homer if you so wish, making them as accurate as daemons."
-Not accurate, only termies and oblits can use icons, they don't work with 'any' deepstrikers, you were correct to be a bit hazy on it.

Here's the problem, we are still going unit to unit, you'd rather go Army lis vs. army list.
You can always just lump the icons and peronsal icons to LD's cost, as no matter what you have to have 2 troop choices.

Ld's can use: Chosen, Bikers, Raptors, Rhino squads to get into combat. THough turn 2 combats are a fickle thing, but it CAN happen as opposed to raptors stuck with shooting and with a chance of killing themselves with the larger footprint.

Turn 2, the raptors have a more effective charge range, but the point is, you are close enough that you don't need it, you are paying for something you quite not need.... when you can have the speed elsewhere... it's like a transport for the LDs withou needing an actual Kill point to get it.

Raptors can fly over terrain, but they don't ignore it when they land in it, like LDs, can hurt themselves, but LDs can save agaisnt danerous terrain, funny enough, unless Rapors get IoT, which would be lol as well.

Again with teh one on ones...yes, raptors are superior in combat, but that's not the point of lesser daemons, they are not the hammer other units can be, nor has anyone said that they were to warrent this kind of comparison. ANything killed after rolling 60 dice is only a boon, not he direct result you are looking for.

They are 'relatively' cheap, which would be a better word.

They ARE more effective at what they do at larger numbers.
Chaos troops ARE NOT at larger numbers, in terms of a single FoC.
Lesser daemons enjoy a large sphere of influence with more members and at 20 you get the third ring.
CSM at larger than 10 member can't get in a rhino, doesn't maximize the special/champs/icons.

Yea.. 15 points... but no so much with all the gear... the effective cost (with increase utility granted) results in a marine effectively 25.5 piontsish (rhino, fist champ, IoCG, 2 melta), pretty much 20 lesser daemons....ok, 18/19.

Maybe when Ig drop to 4, we get 10 point lesser daemons, but again, I won't participate too much in wish lists.

@ShadowDeth:
Thx for the backing, but it's not about being 100% right, I'm just saying they can be used to good effect, much like using any other unit.

My 7 Cents.

malisteen
21-02-2009, 02:26
They aren't aweful. They aren't exactly good either. They are less efficient point-for-point then generic CSMs, that's for sure. They do have some tasks that they do somewhat better. And the reserve thing can be useful in some games. Of course, in other games it just means your opponant gets to take on your army in smaller, easier to chew chunks.

Their real problem, from my experience, is with terrain. Drop them in terrain, and you run a significant risk of losing models to dangerous terrain tests. Charge them into terrain, and watch while they lose several models before attacking because they don't have frag grenades. It's not pretty.



Those posters recommending squads of 8 to 12 have it right, if you do take them. You need that many to have a reasonable impact when you charge, especially if you have to absorb casualties first thanks to difficult terrain and 5e's pile-in-when-charged rule. Less then that tends to be feeding your opponent kill points and combat res. I prefer units of 8 or 9, as 8 gets you about a half an inch extra distance on deployment over seven, and nine another half an inch after that.

One or two such squads in a 1500 point game seems to be how to run them, if you're running them at all. If facing a meq opponent, try to charge them into combats already in progress to reduce potential losses from combat res and mitigate their lack of frag grenades.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 02:50
@Malisteen:
Yes, Lesser Daemons are not as shiny as the other options.
As for DT test, they actually do better due to inv saves, but yes, you can lose something, but that goes for anything else you'd drop in on terrain.

Grenades are a sour issue, but the idea is have so many to have something to strike back.

I lik ethe second half, good stuff there.

My 7 Cents.

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 03:33
killfrenzy: "Lets compare and contrast the two units capabilities in a battle where they both DS."

There are a number of flaws with this approach, but lets persist:

Say a unit of 20 daemons - 260 pts
Versus a unit of raptors, 13-strong - 260pts

I'd prefer to compare 2 units of 10 daemons to your raptor unit since 20 is sub optimal (IMO) for the reasons previously stated.

So before we even start the daemons have advantages and a draw back;

Daemons can control objectives, since winning in 2/3 of the standard missions requires the control of objectives that's +2 to the daemons. However, as they're 2 units they both give KP's so thats a -1. Raptors cannot control objectives therefore that's -1 to them.

So the daemons are 3-1 up and we've hardly started.

Deployment:
killfrenzy: "Daemons need a an icon, or can't appear. When appearing, they can't move but can run and assault 6"."

They can run or assault, they aren't fleet, so they can't do both on the turn they land.

killfrenzy: "This means you'd need either bikers or raptors to ensure a turn-of-arrival assault."

This is true, but depends heavily upon the mission and on the opponents army.

killfrenzy: "Hiking your investment of points up to 300-400pts; just to get daemons into combat on their 1st turn."

Presumably you mean on the 2nd turn of the game, since rhino mounted icons can serve equally well from turn 3 onwards (assuming as far forward as possible is were you want the daemons). Since I would always run with at least 1 fast attack choice (usually bikes) and would always give them an icon (usually chaos glory) there is no extra cost attributable to the daemons.

killfrenzy: "Raptors may deep strike, but do not need an icon; if there is an icon it can be used as a teleport homer if you so wish, making them as accurate as daemons."

Incorrect. Raptors cannot use an icon.

killfrenzy: "With regard to movement, I don't have a copy of 5th edition on me ATM, so please someone fill me in on DSing troops with regard to the shooting and assault phase. (And also on whether they can use teleport homers)

If it is like the previous edition, then they may presumably shoot but not assault."

They can shoot or run (which would be wiser), they may not assault, they can't use a teleport homer.

killfrenzy: "So far, raptors retain superiority in ability in that they are not dependent upon the existence of icons for their appearance, so you're guaranteed their use in the battle. They also have a longer reach on turn of arrival thanks to their ranged weaponry. There are, however 7 less models.

Winner: Raptors (barely)."

I disagree, both units are principly there to assault, daemons have no shooting, raptors do but, their weapons have a short range (so they can easily scatter out of range) and packed in neat circles may not be how they want to spend the opponents shooting phase. Raptors cannot assault on the turn they land, daemons can.

Daemons are dependent on icons it's true but, again you have to take (at least) two other troops choices, if we take, for the sake of argument 2 rhino mounted zerker units, that's two more icons for very little expenditure.

Winner: The daemons (comfortably)

Movement

Now straight up raptors are faster, they can jump then run. If they DS then their coverage of the board is better (if less accurate) than the daemons. So on the face of it they score here, but (there always is a but) ;) I've used raptors quite a bit and I've faced them a few times (as well as no small number of assault marines) and they very rarely deepstrike. I've only ever done it once, and I've had it done onto me once, that's it.

Winner: Raptors (ish)

Shooting

Daemons can't, raptors can.

Winner: Raptors (no contest)

Assault:

Against MEQ's it's close, on average the daemons will kill more (just!) though I seriously dought that anyone would field raptors without a champion (or indeed an icon), against GEQ's the daemons out score the raptors due to sheer number of attacks.

Draw (since realisticly raptors are going to tooled up but, daemons are better against GEQ's)

So I make that 4-3 to the daemons :cool:

One major flaw however, is we're comparing fast attack with troops.

With regard to points values, actually it's about right. Any cheaper and the daemon bomb would be back!!

Consider, you can get 2 squads in rhinos, tooled up + a DP + bikes + circa 500 pts of damons at 1500 pts. Go minimalist on the rhino squads and you can have a second unit of bikes or a unit of oblits + 4 x 10 daemon units.

killfrenzy
21-02-2009, 04:29
I'd prefer to compare 2 units of 10 daemons to your raptor unit since 20 is sub optimal (IMO) for the reasons previously stated.

Considering my own view that daemons are best fielded in large numbers, to overwhelm the enemy, I don't agree with this ...


Daemons can control objectives, since winning in 2/3 of the standard missions requires the control of objectives that's +2 to the daemons. However, as they're 2 units they both give KP's so thats a -1. Raptors cannot control objectives therefore that's -1 to them.

So the daemons are 3-1 up and we've hardly started.

I sense favouritism here. But let's roll with it ..

I compared raptors and daemons in the first place in order to combat your assertion that they were the only thing in the army that could be sent into the enemy d-zone on turn 2.

Unit type is a different issue, but I give it to you.
However you should also note that daemons don't take up FOC slots, which means that you will be forced to take at least 2 troops choices - units that will at the very least have the same level of competency at contesting objectives as daemons. You'll also need these units to summon the daemons in the first place.
About the only special circumstance I can think of is that if you had your daemons clumped around the objective and your opponent dropped ordnance on them, then the daemons would be marginally better at surviving.
But that's all. CSM unit with champion + etc would far exceed them. Plus it might even be able to kill the vindicator or whatever with its lascannon ...

Objective contesting:
Daemons: 1
Raptors: 0

I don't recognise this as +2.


Presumably you mean on the 2nd turn of the game, since rhino mounted icons can serve equally well from turn 3 onwards (assuming as far forward as possible is were you want the daemons). Since I would always run with at least 1 fast attack choice (usually bikes) and would always give them an icon (usually chaos glory) there is no extra cost attributable to the daemons.

Subjective experience, particularily ones own, does not lend much weight to this argument. I, personally, have never played against MEQs with bikes, as odd as that may be. I don't use them myself either.
I spectated a game with them once, though. Their only use is daemonbomb.

I do not concede you this point, since if the idea is to get the daemons into CC as soon as possible, you need bikes with an icon. Meaning the daemons are dependent upon this unit and making this unit a compulsory choice lumped together with the daemons and totaling 300-400pts.

You see, you have to build your entire army around getting daemons into combat; even though when they do get there, they don't do much. Even when there's 20, as above.

Non-dependency on other units:
Daemons: 0
Raptors: 1


Incorrect. Raptors cannot use an icon.

I stand corrected.

*Needs to get a copy of 5th.*


I disagree, both units are principly there to assault, daemons have no shooting, raptors do but, their weapons have a short range (so they can easily scatter out of range) and packed in neat circles may not be how they want to spend the opponents shooting phase. Raptors cannot assault on the turn they land, daemons can.

Daemons are dependent on icons it's true but, again you have to take (at least) two other troops choices, if we take, for the sake of argument 2 rhino mounted zerker units, that's two more icons for very little expenditure.

Winner: The daemons (comfortably)

I don't follow your logic here.
This is in response to me saying that Raptors have a longer reach on turn of arrival, which they do.

If the 2 berzerker units are relevant because having 2 icons means your extending your potential summoning zone, then that's fair enough, I suppose (daemos are still dependent upon them, though).
If not, then I dunno what you were trying to say.

Either way:

Range on turn of arrival:
Daemons: 1 (6")
Raptors: 2 (12")


This is true, but depends heavily upon the mission and on the opponents army.

Potential to be f*cked over by Escalation:
Daemons: 1
Raptors:1

:p

EDIT: If it's still being used, FFS.


Now straight up raptors are faster, they can jump then run. If they DS then their coverage of the board is better (if less accurate) than the daemons. So on the face of it they score here, but (there always is a but) I've used raptors quite a bit and I've faced them a few times (as well as no small number of assault marines) and they very rarely deepstrike. I've only ever done it once, and I've had it done onto me once, that's it.

Winner: Raptors (ish)

Capacity to threaten tank rear (any) armour with meltaguns (or any form of attack) on turn 2:
Daemons: 0
Raptors: 1

You never had that done to you?


Assault:

Against MEQ's it's close, on average the daemons will kill more (just!) though I seriously dought that anyone would field raptors without a champion (or indeed an icon), against GEQ's the daemons out score the raptors due to sheer number of attacks.

Draw (since realisticly raptors are going to tooled up but, daemons are better against GEQ's)

Against GEQ you wouldn't be assaulting, you'd be laying down 2 flamer templates or going after their tanks with meltaguns.
My example was against MEQs, the most common army.

Functionality of a unit changes against different opponents. Which amply demonstrates my earlier point on the flexibility of daemons:
Against MEQ, assault.
Against GEQ, assault
Etc.
They have no flexibility. In the roles they do achieve anything in, their accomplishments are adequate, but only adequate.

I doubt they appear very much in tournie armies for the very reason that they aren't very adaptable.

Adaptability:
Daemons: 0
Raptors: 1


TOTAL SCORES:
Daemons: 3
Raptors: 6

One thing that demonstrate the pointlessness of this grading system is how easily you can manipulate the categories to yield the result you want.

Says a lot about polls in real life, I suppose ...

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 05:38
Agreed, a rating system does not help much.

Objective contesting, both can do it. It's just that daemons can score, and you don't have to have zerkers sit on a far away objective, you can send them to do what they like best.

As for 'requiring 2 base troopers' same can be said of raptors, it's just that they don't actually depend on them. Which is both a pro and a con. Depending on something means it can fail, I'll admit that. But (the raptors can do this as well) when used in concert, they can offset the negative issues and be more useful overall.

Raptors have their own roles, but it heavyily depends on what you want. Quality vs. quantity.
Raptors can sustain casualties along the way, LDs don't.

If you DS the raptors, you'll prob. not shoot but run, no different than LDs with no charge options ( template weapons get a hard on with MEQ huddle up without lash, less interested in stuff with inv saves).

I think 'need' is too strong of a word. You do not 'need' the bikers to get lesser daemons in combat, you need anything that moves over infantry pace, or has some way of getting to the enemy faster than deployed in own deployment zone. A canny opponent would just deploy more back.

You lose out on the turn 2 charge (though them coming in is not guarenteed), you get utility by affecting the enemy deployment.

THere is no escalation there's Dawn of war, and stuff comes on first turn...so no worries, and troops / hq can start on board. Nothing too bad. THough bikers ARE desirable here, but not entirely needed.

Should the LD's come in early with no targets they run forward, and maximize target saturation....you'll deal with LDs or they'll be 'the second wave'.

Yes, raptors can be kitted for specific tasked...and can excel like the shitz vs. tanks.
But, LDs, if forced (or is a good trade off) to attack a vehicle, most are Av10 in the back, so would be glanced, and stunned is good enough.

My 7 Cents.

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 13:12
OK we'll chuck out the rating system, wasn't helpful anyway.

killfrenzy: "Considering my own view that daemons are best fielded in large numbers, to overwhelm the enemy, I don't agree with this"

I would agree that they need numbers, it's just that at times (usually critical ones) it can be hard to stick even 10 down exactly where the're required without risking DT tests or mishaps.

killfrenzy: "I compared raptors and daemons in the first place in order to combat your assertion that they were the only thing in the army that could be sent into the enemy d-zone on turn 2."

What I said was assault in the opponents deployment zone on turn 2, clearly a misunderstanding, since raptors cannot assault on turn 2 if they DS.

killfrenzy: "However you should also note that daemons don't take up FOC slots, which means that you will be forced to take at least 2 troops choices - units that will at the very least have the same level of competency at contesting objectives as daemons. You'll also need these units to summon the daemons in the first place."

I'm not being funny, but you must get up to speed on 5th Ed. Minimum troop choice armies are a very risky prospect in 5th. I would say that you need at least 4 troop choices (preferably 5) in 1500+.

This is why I started including daemons, since the other alternatives didn't really appeal.

I looked at it like this; functional units in the CSM army generaly cost 200-300pts so if I want more troops I'm going to have to drop some of the funky stuff (oblits/bikes), or I'm going to have to get more troops for the points I'm spending now (by reducing squad sizes, dropping transports, etc). I decided to try daemons since dropping 1 rhino mounted CSM squad yielded 20 daemons and I settled on 2x10 strong units and it's been working pretty well.
I did try a 20 strong unit and on the attack it worked as well or better, than the 2x10, but it suffered badly in the counter attacking role. In a couple of games I just could not drop the 20 strong unit where I needed it (a 10 strong unit would have fitted) in one instance I lost the unit and hence the game, in another being able to place the unit would have converted a draw to a win.

That aside, you might be right, I'm right off raptors, they just don't cut it for me. I tried them out for over a year, in all sorts of configurations and I just always felt bikes would have been better. I don't think they suit my style of play, while they hit harder than the bikes, the're less mobile and in my experience the're more fragile. But, that's just me. :)

killfrenzy: "About the only special circumstance I can think of is that if you had your daemons clumped around the objective and your opponent dropped ordnance on them, then the daemons would be marginally better at surviving.
But that's all. CSM unit with champion + etc would far exceed them. Plus it might even be able to kill the vindicator or whatever with its lascannon ..."

See your not looking at this in 5th ed. Mode.

Let's take your CSM squad with champion/lascannon, etc. It's sitting in cover, on an objective and your opponent needs to take that objective. He/she has a better chance of clearing your CSM's off that objective than they do the same number of daemons.
Why? Because if he wants that objective he has to wipe out that unit of daemons either by firepower, or by assault or both, so basically his only option is to get 10 wounds past a 3+ cover save and/or wipe them out in combat.
Of course if he gets 10 wounds past 3+ armour/3+ cover he gets rid of the CSM's too, but in their case he has other options. 3 wounds or more and they might break, not very likely, but it does happen.

So considering each unit in isolation, the're about as useful as each other, but point for point you get more daemons, so 260 pts of CSM can hold 1 objective, 260 pts of daemons can hold 2.

killfrenzy: "Subjective experience, particularily ones own, does not lend much weight to this argument. ."

Well your 'subjective experience' certainly doesn't. All of this discussion is subjective, all of it. Even so these statements: "I, personally, have never played against MEQs with bikes, as odd as that may be.", "I don't use them myself either." & "I spectated a game with them once, though." Add little weight to this one: "Their only use is daemonbomb"
Which is twaddle.

killfrenzy: "I do not concede you this point, since if the idea is to get the daemons into CC as soon as possible, you need bikes with an icon. Meaning the daemons are dependent upon this unit and making this unit a compulsory choice lumped together with the daemons and totaling 300-400pts."

Your looking at matters far too simplisticly, the idea is to always have an icon somewhere the daemons will be useful when they turn up. The daemons are dependent on icons not, an icon. Their only use is not getting across as fast as possible, the threat of them doing so is though an important part of an armies stratagy.

killfrenzy: "You see, you have to build your entire army around getting daemons into combat; even though when they do get there, they don't do much. Even when there's 20, as above."

Well we're looking at this from different prespectives, because, excepting the oblits, my whole army prefers to be in CC, chucking out a few shots is just a nice bonus. :evilgrin:

killfrenzy: "This is in response to me saying that Raptors have a longer reach on turn of arrival, which they do."

What I'm saying is on the turn they arrive their CC reach is 0 and their shooting stands a good chance of being either 0 (if they run) or ineffectual if they scatter any appreciable distance.

killfrenzy: "Potential to be f*cked over by Escalation"

None, long gone.

killfrenzy: "Capacity to threaten tank rear (any) armour with meltaguns (or any form of attack) on turn 2:"

Yeah I'll concede that(ish) since daemons are only a threat to any tank with an AV10 facing.

killfrenzy: "You never had that done to you?"

Oh yes, and dished it out a few times too. :)

killfrenzy: "Against GEQ you wouldn't be assaulting, you'd be laying down 2 flamer templates or going after their tanks with meltaguns.
My example was against MEQs, the most common army."

Since you can't assault on the turn you land that's given (if you get close enough to be effective (which isn't given). True MEQ's are still up there, but the're not as popular a competative choice as once they where (gone are the days when you could be certain of playing 4 MEQ's in a 6 game tournament).

killfrenzy: "Functionality of a unit changes against different opponents. Which amply demonstrates my earlier point on the flexibility of daemons:
Against MEQ, assault.
Against GEQ, assault
Etc.
They have no flexibility. In the roles they do achieve anything in, their accomplishments are adequate, but only adequate."

Don't get you on this one old boy "Against MEQ, assault" is a different function to "Against GEQ, assault" in the former case the function of the daemons is to fix the target in place for the heavy hitters in the latter, party time!

The flexibility comes in the how, when and where of their arrival.

killfrenzy: "I doubt they appear very much in tournie armies for the very reason that they aren't very adaptable."

Actually, 1 sometimes 2 units are quite common in Lash PM/zerker lists, just to bulk out the troops choices.

Really the argument is becoming pointless, because you think LD's are useless and I know the're not because I have and do use them succesfully.

volair
21-02-2009, 13:26
There is no unit in the game that lesser deamons are better at engaging than either plague marines or berserkers. It doesn't matter that there is a chance for them to charge before plague marines or berserkers could, they lack power. You don't suicide weak infantry ahead of your army unless they can deal damage proportional to their cost, and lesser deamons don't.

malisteen
21-02-2009, 14:26
Re dangerous terrain tests: Only a few units in the army take them, because only a few units ever bother to deep strike. These include lesser daemons, terminator squads, and obliterators. The obliterators can't lose models or firepower from a failed test unless you're dropping more then one and get very unlucky. Terminators don't have as much incentive to drop in terrain, since they already have a 2+ armor save, but the problem does remain there.

Raptors don't take such tests because, ime, raptors don't deep strike. With jump move, they don't need to.

CSMs outfight lesser daemons in almost but not all circumstances. In those circumstances where they don't outfight daemons, the daemons still aren't good enough for the job. Daemons don't fight very hard, and are at significant risk of lost wounds from losing combat.

Their lack of shooting means that a daemon unit sitting on an objective is doing literally nothing else.


They are ok at bulking up a portion of the battlefield in responce to enemy tactics. They aren't bad at that. Basically, take any combat where you're slowly losing due to attrition, and throw a newly summoned unit of daemons into it. In this situation, the daemons lack of grenades and armor doesn't matter because they can't be attacked, their lack of pistols doesn't matter because they couldn't shoot into the combat anyway, and their lack of a fist doesn't matter (as much), because presumably there's already one there. You just get to pump some extra numbers and some extra attacks into a wavering assault.

In this case, the no-scatter, deep strike nearby plus assault on the same turn gimmick is actually directly relevant, and nothing else in the army can do that. Again, almost anything else you might try to use daemons for, there's a unit that's better at it (holding objectives: Plagues or CSMs; assaulting: 'zerks or CSMs; Forward assaults: Raptors). Reserve reinforcement of ongoing assault is the best thing I've found for them. There are problems - the main one being their chance of arriving too soon.

When they do show up too soon you can send them after an objective, or send them forward towards assault with the unit that summoned them. Now, if you were looking for someone to send after an objective to begin with, CSMs or Plagues would have been a better bet, but sometimes you just have to roll with the punches. If you're still going to send them forward to assault, try to have them arrive near a unit that isn't in a vehicle. That way the daemons can screen the summoning unit if the enemy has a lot of low ap firepower, or vice versa if the enemy has a lot of high ap, multiple shot firepower.

Generally, though, if you're playing daemons, you want to take multiple units to mitigate the risk of too-early arrival. Of course, you also want the units to be large enough to have the needed impact if they do arrive on time, which is another reason I prefer the smaller end of that '8 to 12' range for unit size. Again, when I do field daemons (and that isn't all that often, anymore), I generally go for two units of 8 or 9.

Levett
21-02-2009, 14:26
I've been using LD's in a tournament list for a while now, and i'm currently on 75 wins in a row including playing at various clubs across the UK. I've also seen LD's used in other tourny lists several times, but purely as objective grabbers.

They are simply too fragile to risk taking more saves due to being fearless, however, as a unit to claim objectives, they are fantastic for the points cost, as put simply, it means you're not wasting a 250pt squad of PM's / Zerkers to do the exact same job a 91pt LD unit can do.

Also, people are being stupid when looking at using LD's for tank killing potential... sorry, but if you're resorting to using these little guys to taking down any form of tank, your list fails, as does your entire playing strategy.

This thread now stinks of people becoming stubborn and not willing to view things from a different perspective. We could even sum up the entire post with this line...

"Some think LD's are useful, others dont". < win.

:)

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 14:34
volair: "There is no unit in the game that lesser deamons are better at engaging than either plague marines or berserkers. Sure you could get a lucky turn 2 charge with them, but what is the point? You're going to have some weak infantry charge in ahead of your real army and die, failing to inflict damage proportional to their cost. Rapidfire weapons cause serious damage to them when they fail to charge, and they lose to a lot of units in close combat."

Rubbish, they are not weak infantry, PM's are not serious assault troops anyway and while zerkers are obviously better the're twice the pts, minimum, and just as vulnarable to rapid fire because of their lower numbers. In any case it's not an either or situation, it's about combined arms. See PM's are very difficult for an opponent to get rid of, but the're slow, few in number, and they don't kill much. So if you go down that road you need something to actually do the killing, say zerkers. Now you need something to fix units in place so that the zerkers get the charge and that's where your LD's come in.

volair: "They are a complete joke against ork shoota boyz for example."

Poppycock & twaddle, strange that, in the last two singles tournaments I played in I defeated ork hordes, bloody battles (& great fun), and in both battles the LD's where critical to success, by fixing targets for assault and shoring up the line. See 10 daemons will stop 30 shoota boyz, they'll kill circa 7 orks, at worst they'll lose by a couple, so even if the orks finnish them off in their turn you've still broken up that wave of orks.

volair
21-02-2009, 14:39
volair: "There is no unit in the game that lesser deamons are better at engaging than either plague marines or berserkers. Sure you could get a lucky turn 2 charge with them, but what is the point? You're going to have some weak infantry charge in ahead of your real army and die, failing to inflict damage proportional to their cost. Rapidfire weapons cause serious damage to them when they fail to charge, and they lose to a lot of units in close combat."

Rubbish, they are not weak infantry, PM's are not serious assault troops anyway and while zerkers are obviously better the're twice the pts, minimum, and just as vulnarable to rapid fire because of their lower numbers. In any case it's not an either or situation, it's about combined arms. See PM's are very difficult for an opponent to get rid of, but the're slow, few in number, and they don't kill much. So if you go down that road you need something to actually do the killing, say zerkers. Now you need something to fix units in place so that the zerkers get the charge and that's where your LD's come in.

volair: "They are a complete joke against ork shoota boyz for example."

Poppycock & twaddle, strange that, in the last two singles tournaments I played in I defeated ork hordes, bloody battles (& great fun), and in both battles the LD's where critical to success, by fixing targets for assault and shoring up the line. See 10 daemons will stop 30 shoota boyz, they'll kill circa 7 orks, at worst they'll lose by a couple, so even if the orks finnish them off in their turn you've still broken up that wave of orks.

A unit of 30 shoota boyz would horribly destroy a unit of 10 lesser deamons. The LDs would kill about 60-70 points of orks before being eliminated, and if the shoota boyz got to fire at them first, 2/3rds of them would die before they even got to charge

IJW
21-02-2009, 14:48
The LDs would kill about 60-70 points of orks before being eliminated
Well, that would explain things...

How many points of Orks the LDs kill is irrelevant - what is relevant is whether they help you achieve your objectives to win the game. In 4th ed. thinking in terms of points killed/made back was flawed at best. In 5th ed. thinking in those terms is downright misleading.

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 15:07
volair: "A unit of 30 shoota boyz would horribly destroy a unit of 10 lesser deamons. The LDs would kill about 60-70 points of orks before being eliminated, and if the shoota boyz got to fire at them first, 2/3rds of them would die before they even got to charge"

This is pointless, that's 4th ed. Thinking forget the pts, it's about gaining a tempo, seizing the initiative, breaking up the wave so you can destroy it mob by mob. I've done it twice now, no other unit could have done what the LD's did in those games, they couldn't have got there without taking a charge from an ork mob.

malisteen
21-02-2009, 15:37
I will admit that I haven't played lessers much in 5th, mostly because I haven't played much 5th at all, and that's certainly going to distort my view of things.

Of course, I was never saying they're useless, I've just been saying there's are a very narrow range of uses in which the CSM codex doesn't have a blatantly better choice. Within that range, they've mostly been fine for me, outside of it...

Then again, I also have to admit I've had some wonky luck coloring my opinion. It's hard not to get a bitter taste in your mouth when you charge four or five marines with fifteen or twenty lesser daemons and have the marines walk out mostly unscathed over a pile of dead daemons a few combat rounds later, as happened in the first two games of 5th that I ran lessers in.

volair
21-02-2009, 15:42
Points don't matter to you? So even if lesser deamons were 20 points each you would still use them?

You keep talking about these theoretical tactics like "seizing the initiative," and "breaking up the wave" that don't mean anything in a real game. In 40k it is always advantageous to take the most efficient units in your codex, and efficiency is well defined as combat power, in terms of dice averages, relative to points, which is the basis of my argument that lesser deamons are inferior. The only tactics that exist in 40k are in deployment, cover utilization, coordinated positioning, and objectives. The rest of the game is rolling dice, and whoever has the most efficient units has a greater chance of winning the dice battles.

malisteen
21-02-2009, 15:56
Remember that maneuver and positioning matter in that as well, otherwise raptors would be outright terrible as they're fully 15 more points then a basic marine, but don't hit any harder (and, indeed, lose bolters), nor are they any more resiliant.

Summoning gives daemons an option for positioning and delivery that no other unit in the army has. Raptors are faster, but have to avoid lines of fire on the way to combat. Raptors can deep strike, but they scatter and can't assault the turn they drop. Oblits and termies might not scatter, but still can't assault same turn.

This unique capability lets them contribute in a way that other units can't. They're still inefficient for their points, I agree, but they aren't cripplingly so. I generally think there are better choices for most jobs, and the job they can do better isn't exactly necessary if your units are supporting each other to begin with, but I really wouldn't call them terrible. Boring? Sure. A lame stand in for much cooler concepts? Sure. Somewhat inefficient? Yeah. Terrible? I just don't agree, there.

DhaosAndy
21-02-2009, 16:55
volair: "Points don't matter to you? So even if lesser deamons were 20 points each you would still use them?"

Of course not, what I mean is once the dice start to roll, forget pts values. Making match ups and calculating VP margins is 4th Ed. Thinking.

volair: "You keep talking about these theoretical tactics like "seizing the initiative," and "breaking up the wave" that don't mean anything in a real game."

Twaddle.
If you don't understand what I mean just say so.

volair: "In 40k it is always advantageous to take the most efficient units in your codex, and efficiency is well defined as combat power, in terms of dice averages, relative to points, which is the basis of my argument that lesser deamons are inferior."

You missed out 2 important factors, mobility and impact. Lesser daemons have both, but since you don't consider them important it's unsuprising that you regard LD's as inferior. Their mobility comes from their being summoned, their impact comes from the opponent being unable to predict where they'll arrive.

volair: "The only tactics that exist in 40k are in deployment, cover utilization, coordinated positioning, and objectives."

Again you neglect a truley vital factor, mobility, which can; allow you to recover from an inferior deployment, fully utilise cover, co-ordinate your position dynamically and sieze objectives.

volair: "The rest of the game is rolling dice, and whoever has the most efficient units has a greater chance of winning the dice battles."

To which I would add, your unit can be as efficient as you like, but if I hit it with 3 or 4 of mine due to mobility and impact, I'll be rolling more dice and the efficient unit will be dust upon the wind. :evilgrin:

Levett
21-02-2009, 17:31
Ok... volair, how are 10 CSM's more efficient in CC that 10 LD's (Remembering that you could actually get more LDs for the same points)?

Effciency will be determined purely on the ability to kill which you called combat power (e.g. amount of models in a unit it takes to kill a certain amount). If you look at it like that, then LDs are exactly the same! (shocker), but for less points. So they win that argument. Then take into account survivability in CC, which the CSM will win. So far, they are totally even. Now keeping in mind your talking about there only being a small amount of tactics in 40k, one of which being 'cover utilisation', LDs benefit far more from this than CSM, and due to being fearless, they actually have more survivability than CSM.

Your arguments are flawed, and represent the ignorant opinion of someone desperately trying to prove themselves correct.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 17:38
@Volair:
"There is no unit in the game that lesser deamons are better at engaging than either plague marines or berserkers. "

Avatar, CC Fex, Tyrant, stuff with lots of power weapons, stuff like that.

Just give up on that point... by you saying 'there is no unit..' you have failed already, again, narrow minded. The post was in general, not helping this discussion.
_________________

@malisteen:
Yes, few armies take them… what I’m saying is that LDs CAN save against them if they HAD to DS in terrain.

Raptors don’t have to land in terrain, but sometimes it’s unavoidable… and in that case… something important could die, without getting a save (other than IoT).

CSM outfight LDs…. But that’s not the point of the Lesser daemons to outfight anything…. It’s to be there and lock a unit. Any casualties on the enemy is just a boon.

Lack of shooting means they can continue to Go to Ground with no Opportunity Cost.

There are units better than then, but look at it this way.

PM’s effective range is close up with special weapons…sitting on an objective with nothing to shoot at is the opportunity cost.
Zerker, they like combat a lot, but need the charge, LD’s will more likely get off a charge, while the zerkers can make a better second wave, it’s not about unit vs unit, it’s how they interact with the army.
Raptors and forward assaults, generally they move in cover behind rhino’s… limiting their maxium speed to get to the enemy, and again, it’s how you use LDs… they can bolster a Chosen squad faster or at the same time to lesser daemons.

8 is the minimum size.
10 is the ‘traditional’ squad size.
12 is the ‘3 rd’ ring.
______________________
@Volair again:
30 shoota boyz…. The LD’s would get the charge on them first…. Robbing them of their furious charge and the extra attacks.

LD’s go first, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 6 ish dead.
24 boyz left, 48 Attacks, 24 hit, 8 wounds, 5 ish dead.
They are comparable there…. And LD’s are not mainly there to do the killing, they are there to:
Lock the Orks, prevent them from shooting, waiting for back up that’s close by, or combo charging.

One on ones should stop NOW.
_____________________
@malisteen:
“I will admit that I haven't played lessers much in 5th, mostly because I haven't played much 5th at all, and that's certainly going to distort my view of things.”

Which is one of the points I’m trying to get across (thx for the honesty), that you need to use them on a consistent manner knowing what they are for in your army… to then be able to put down your opinions about them with some decent rationale… instead of Valoir’s statements with no substance.
____________________
@Volair:
What we are saying is, there are many variables to how a unit performs in a game…regardless what that unit is.

As to point, when it’s army vs army, there is not necessarily a ‘fair fight’ scenario.
_____________________

@malisteen:

“This unique capability lets them contribute in a way that other units can't. They're still inefficient for their points, I agree, but they aren't cripplingly so. I generally think there are better choices for most jobs, and the job they can do better isn't exactly necessary if your units are supporting each other to begin with, but I really wouldn't call them terrible. Boring? Sure. A lame stand in for much cooler concepts? Sure. Somewhat inefficient? Yeah. Terrible? I just don't agree, there.”

I can second this. There is a hazy mist around lesser daemons with a bad background thnx to GW, but they are a functional unit in the Chaos list.

My 7 Cents.

Znail
21-02-2009, 17:47
Points don't matter to you? So even if lesser deamons were 20 points each you would still use them?

You keep talking about these theoretical tactics like "seizing the initiative," and "breaking up the wave" that don't mean anything in a real game. In 40k it is always advantageous to take the most efficient units in your codex, and efficiency is well defined as combat power, in terms of dice averages, relative to points, which is the basis of my argument that lesser deamons are inferior. The only tactics that exist in 40k are in deployment, cover utilization, coordinated positioning, and objectives. The rest of the game is rolling dice, and whoever has the most efficient units has a greater chance of winning the dice battles.

Initiative and concepts like 'breaking up the wave' is rather important when fighting Orks. Ork boyz are pretty much the best unit in the game per point if you discount their main downside and that is that they take up alot of space on the field. A pretty basic counter tactics against the 'Green Tide' is to deploy on one extreme flank and thus cause alot of clogging and bottleneck problems for the horde. In such a game so is timing very important as you need to kill the Orks fast enuff to keep them mostly away. Gaining an extra turn can be the difference between win or lose.

volair
21-02-2009, 19:15
Ok... volair, how are 10 CSM's more efficient in CC that 10 LD's (Remembering that you could actually get more LDs for the same points)?

Effciency will be determined purely on the ability to kill which you called combat power (e.g. amount of models in a unit it takes to kill a certain amount). If you look at it like that, then LDs are exactly the same! (shocker), but for less points. So they win that argument. Then take into account survivability in CC, which the CSM will win. So far, they are totally even. Now keeping in mind your talking about there only being a small amount of tactics in 40k, one of which being 'cover utilisation', LDs benefit far more from this than CSM, and due to being fearless, they actually have more survivability than CSM.

Your arguments are flawed, and represent the ignorant opinion of someone desperately trying to prove themselves correct.

I never made an argument for CSMs, only berserkers and plague marines. You just made up an argument and forcefully tried to insert me into it, even making up my side of it.

volair
21-02-2009, 19:27
Sancjud, you need to consider point costs in your math. As it is your math would show the same thing if ork boyz were 2 points each and lesser deamons were 20; you are drawing false conclusions.

Sanctjud
21-02-2009, 20:24
Well, I'm sorry, I'm not 'getting' the point you are trying to make, could you expand on it.

Lesser daemons cost what they cost, I don't see how it could support your opinions by saying they cost something else.

The points cost in my math is just that.. 260 for a 20 man squad, then 15 points for 3 Personal icons.
Which totals 275 which is equivalent to 10 raptors (IoCG, CHamp with claws + MB, 2 melta)... the reason I use Raptors as an example, is because that's what the Lesser daemons are replacing in my competitive 1850 list.

I made a note, that when we get on teh board, we dont' have 'fair fights' in terms of equal points.... to try to get away from the one on one fights we seem to stick so close to.

My 7 Cents.