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Kerethar
03-04-2009, 18:25
Kindly remind me plz

I make an overrun move into a fresh enemy.
On his/her turn a unit charges my unit.

Does my opponent's charging unit attack first?
Then my unit, then the unit that I overran into?

Or, do both chargers attack simultaneously?


Thanks!

Kalandros
03-04-2009, 18:27
you both count as charging - Initiative Order, D6 if equal Initiative values.

The unit you overran into still strikes after both chargers.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 18:28
This is the order:

Impact hits
ASF (based in initiative)
Unit that charged THAT TURN
Other units that charged
Remaining in initiative order


Kalandros, the rules say that the unit that charged that turn goes first. Important difference.

theunwantedbeing
03-04-2009, 18:36
Page 45.
When both sides are charging you go off initiutive order.

None of this "the unit that charged this turn nonsense".

Malorian
03-04-2009, 18:39
Is this another last edition mix up then?

(Oh why don't I bring my rule book to work!!! ;) )

theunwantedbeing
03-04-2009, 18:44
Seems to be, although the striking order rules do simply say
units that charged that turn automatically strike first
which will get you the same idea if you don't bother to check the rules on overunning troops being charged, which is later in the book under the overrun section.

6th edition did actually have this same clause that 7th edition does.
That's on page 76 of the 6th edition rulebook,
they count as charging that turn, even though the charged the previous turn, so get all the benefits of charging that turn.

Perhaps 5th edition was different.
I can't recall and don't have the 5th edition rules.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 18:48
Seems to be, although the striking order rules do simply say
units that charged that turn automatically strike first
which will get you the same idea if you don't bother to check the rules on overunning troops being charged, which is later in the book under the overrun section.

Hmmm this would be what threw me off.

I'll have to go back and double check that last section as this would be EXTREMELY important as a huge part of mine and others tactics is the counter charge. If it's based off initiative and not who charged that turn then that's a major blow to the idea of counter charging.

EvC
03-04-2009, 18:59
Stop the presses: Warseer member in "reading the rules is a good idea" shocker!

Malorian
03-04-2009, 19:28
Stop the presses: Warseer member in "reading the rules is a good idea" shocker!

:mad: Given that they say one thing and then say something else later on in a different section doesn't mean I didn't read the rules.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-04-2009, 19:56
Another possible source of confusion is if you play Empire. A counter-charging detachment attacks before the opponent's charging unit!

Lord Yawgmoth
03-04-2009, 20:07
Another possible source of confusion is if you play Empire. A counter-charging detachment attacks before the opponent's charging unit!

Haha, empire is the only race [of humans even] in the warhammer world with enough discipline and tactic guile and rigorous training to be able to countercharge effectively.

EvC
03-04-2009, 21:02
:mad: Given that they say one thing and then say something else later on in a different section doesn't mean I didn't read the rules.

Well actually it does mean, by definition, that you didn't read the second part that clarifies the first for the specific situation we're talking about. But I'm only teasing, don't mind me ;)

Malorian
04-04-2009, 03:44
(Paging EvC...)


Ok, so now I have the book opn me.

First of all this is a horrible case of two pages saying exactly the opposite thing.

Secondly I'm now not sure of something.

It says "If charging models ar fighting other models that count as charging, solve their attacks in initiative order". Now what does it mean 'figting'? Is this a general term meaning they are in the same combat? Or does it mean if they direct their attacks at the other charging unit? Example:

Some ogres beat up some spider riders and over run into a unit of orcs. On the orc turn they counter charge with some boar boyz (for the sack of arguement lets say everyone has the same initiative). Now does this mean that if the ogres want to attack the orcs they will strike after the boar boyz, but if the ogre on the end wanted to strike at the boar boyz they would roll off, and then after they strike the rest of the ogre would, followed by the orcs?

Is this how it works?

Nurgling Chieftain
04-04-2009, 09:03
First of all this is a horrible case of two pages saying exactly the opposite thing.Sort of. GW doesn't always write their rules to extend out of context. ...Quite the contrary, really. So, the specific situation described overrides the general case.


does this mean that if the ogres want to attack the orcs they will strike after the boar boyz, but if the ogre on the end wanted to strike at the boar boyz they would roll off, and then after they strike the rest of the ogre would, followed by the orcs?No; who they're allocating attacks to is not (and cannot be) a factor. Think about it for a second: you allocate attacks when it's your turn to attack. That's too late to determine when you're attacking! The two charging units could be on opposite sides of a single, big, complex fight, and they'd still technically initiative off (though in that case it probably wouldn't matter).

Urgat
04-04-2009, 10:32
To be honest, I've always played it as Malorian did... So that means that if, say, a unit of dark elves overun into a unit of my orcs, then another of my orc units charge these dark elves during my turn, the dark elves attack first both unit, even the unit of orc that charged them? That's pretty idiotic and unfair.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2009, 11:03
6th edition did it differently but it was more complicated. The charging units attacked in the order they charge in but initially couldn't direct any attacks against units that had charged after they did. Once those attacks were completed the chargers could then attack units that charged them (not sure what the order was for those attacks) then finally units that did not charge could attack.

narrativium
04-04-2009, 11:11
To be honest, I've always played it as Malorian did... So that means that if, say, a unit of dark elves overun into a unit of my orcs, then another of my orc units charge these dark elves during my turn, the dark elves attack first both unit, even the unit of orc that charged them? That's pretty idiotic and unfair.
Why? They charged a moving target, just as fired up for combat as they were, who had quicker reflexes.

EvC
04-04-2009, 13:39
Heaven forfend that the initiative stat be worth a damn in such a situation!

Urgat
04-04-2009, 14:20
Why? They charged a moving target, just as fired up for combat as they were, who had quicker reflexes.

They charged the unit, period. but rules are rules so what the heck am I arguing about anyway >>


Heaven forfend that the initiative stat be worth a damn in such a situation!

Yeah, well, with all the ASF units around now, I can say the same about charging.

Kerethar
04-04-2009, 18:12
It never occurred to me to check the box "Pursuit into fresh enemy" :roll eyes:

Thanks guys!!