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Green Feevah!
04-04-2009, 09:23
Okay here is what I have:


Archmage (Lvl 4; Folariath's Robes)(with spearmen)
Mage (Lvl 2, Seerstaff of Saphery; Steed)(with silver helms)
Noble (BSB; War banner, dragon armor, barded steed, shield, lance)(with Dragon Princes)
12 Archers
12 Archers
25 Spearmen (Full Command)
Lion Chariot
5 Dragon Princes (Full Command)
8 Silver Helms (full command)
10 Swordmasters
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
1995 points

I also have an unassembled Noble on foot and 7 more spearmen (4 spears and another command).

Here is my dilemma; I ave no idea what I'm doing. To be honest, most of this is just from the high elf army box set. I am a long time Eldar player in 40k, and am hoping the High Elves work similar, but I have yet to find any of the synnergies and/or combos. I'm also totally lost as to magic and magic items.

My fantasy experience has been mostly Orcs with a little bit of Dwarves. High Elves are a totally reversal for me and as such, I need a lot of help on both list composition and tactics.

Thank you in advance.

Edit: I just realized I wasn't in the Armylist forum. If a moderator could please move them that would be greatly appeciated.

Briohmar
04-04-2009, 09:35
Friends don't let friends High Elf. Really, the best advice you'll get is to build the army how you want to build it, play a few games, get the feel of what you're doing with it, and then start tweeking. There are optimal builds, which people will quote to you chapter and verse, but these are meant for serious tournament players, and not for fun games with your friends. The only tweak I'd start with, however from the list you have is the magic items on your Archmage. I've never seen anybody take the robe, but there are other items that will make your caster a bit better.

ScytheSwathe
04-04-2009, 11:05
Ditto Briohmar.

Those magic items do need work however. Youve got no dispel scrolls, the war banner is a bit cheap for a BSB, you could just give it to unit champion, unless you mean battle banner.
But anyway play some games, have a bit of a tinker.

wamphyri101
04-04-2009, 11:10
I agree with the other 2. Best thing to do is:

A: Read the Tactica. It has alot of info already.

B: Browse through already posted army lists for ideas.

c: Play some games. Find what works and what doesnt. When I first started playing High elves I lost plenty of games and now do very very well.

Just keep at it, hold your head high and dont worry about changing your list every game till you find what works for you

WhiteLion
04-04-2009, 15:04
I agree with the posters that said, play a few games and see how it feels. Beyond that, there are a

I think you may also want to pick up a couple of eagles. They have important tactical uses in the HE list.

On your BSB, the warbanner isn't worth it as it makes him pretty vulnerable. You have magic banner slots available in your spears and dragon princes, though. The battle banner is a solid choice for him, or give him items to protect him in combat.

garythewargamer
04-04-2009, 15:46
Join an escalation league league. Start at a lower level and see how the game system and HE units work. Then you can try different things as you slowly increase the point levels. I had a much longer post for you but for some reason the internet refused to work this morning.

Walls
05-04-2009, 19:57
I wonder what the benefit to taking Lothern Sea Guard is compared to Spearmen or Archers. I keep reading that they are great or way underpowered.

I read the tactica as well and it's too chaotic, too full of differing opinions and definitely not easy to make sense of as a new HE player.

Desert Rain
05-04-2009, 20:22
I wonder what the benefit to taking Lothern Sea Guard is compared to Spearmen or Archers. I keep reading that they are great or way underpowered.

I read the tactica as well and it's too chaotic, too full of differing opinions and definitely not easy to make sense of as a new HE player.
If you want to play defensivly I believe that they are good. First you deploy them in a wide formation so that as many models as possible can fire their bows. When the enemy closes in you reform into a deeper fighting block instead. In a more offensive type of army I don't think that they will cut it.

However, when my army becomes bigger 3000+ points I'm considering a small unit of 12 seaguard with shields to sit back and guard my archers and warmachines. And then advance towards the main combats in order to bring some support later in the game.

isidril93
05-04-2009, 20:29
I wonder what the benefit to taking Lothern Sea Guard is compared to Spearmen or Archers. I keep reading that they are great or way underpowered.

I read the tactica as well and it's too chaotic, too full of differing opinions and definitely not easy to make sense of as a new HE player.

dont bother with lothern sea guard

as for the tactica the firt part sould be pretty organise...then it starts getting confusing :)

WhiteLion
06-04-2009, 03:43
dont bother with lothern sea guard

as for the tactica the firt part sould be pretty organise...then it starts getting confusing :)

This is one school of thought. Another is that their flexibility is very useful. I think that they are a bit expensive, but that goes with the territory as far as high elves are concerned.

They take some practice to get used to using but can be an excellent selection for a tournament type list, where you don't know what you will be facing. Against a particular opponent, you will probably know whether or not they will be useful or whether you'll need spears or archers.

Their armor save, especially with shields, makes them much more resilient than archers and that fact, along with the fact that they can fight in multiple ranks does a lot to dissuade charges from lightly armored troops. In other words, they aren't as easy victory points as archers, which is the main problem I tend to find with them. Archers may get a couple of rounds of shooting in, but I find they tend to end up as easy points for my opponents, pretty much regardless of what they send at them.

A lot of people dismiss LSG immediately, but I definitely think they have their uses.

sroblin
06-04-2009, 13:09
Yeah, I agree with WhiteLion about the Sea Guard. They are not a 'great' unit, but they have their uses. I think they suit defensive play much more than offensive, because you want to let them use their bows to greater effect, and they're too expensive to be thrown into the teeth of nasty closecombat units and artillery (unlike Spearmen.) However, if you can park them on a hill in two ranks they can shoot as much as any archer unit, and reform into 3 ranks to receive any charges and STILL get in another round of shooting AND a stand in shoot. So if you use them well you can get a lot of functionality out of them.

Green Feevah!
06-04-2009, 21:37
Hmmm... no offense, but so far this hasn't been any more helpful then trying to slug through the tactica thread. The biggest advice on 'How do I play High Elves" is "Go and play them". That's like asking "How do I walk?" and getting a response "Go walk around a bit and you'll figure it out".

Perhaps my question needs to be more clear: I am looking for advice on what works and what doesn't in a High Elves list. I really don't want to go spend money on units that will prove utterly worthless (*cough* Silver Helms *cough*). I have enough of those in other armies.

So I'll ask questions that are hopefully more pointed and might get an actual answer:

1) Core selection: Archer, Spearmen or Sea Guard. I see the uses of all three, but what units work best with otherunits in the book? Do the spearmen have good synergy with, say, the Swordmasters?
2) Dragon Princes: 5 or 9? (Both with a character)
3) Lion Chariot: Good enough to stand on it's own, or does it need to be supported? And if so, by what?
4) Character Selection/Magic Item Selection: What are the more popular choices? I am totally lost on magic items, as I almost never use them in my other lists (Orcs and Dwarves). What works well with what? This is where I am the most confused, and could use the most advice.
5) White Lions over Swordmasters? And what size should the units be? 5? 10? 15?
6) How many repeater bolt throwers are too many? Is anything past 2 cheesy?
7) Are great eagles worth it? They seem great on paper, but from my experience a single model like that tend to be free VP for the enemy. Unless I'm missing some kind of trick that makes them fantastic.
8) What is the ideal size for Spearmen? I've tried 2 X 15 (utter fail) and 1 X 25 that never saw combat.
9) I'm aware that a Prince on a Star Dragon is one of the win buttons for high Elves, but is there a way to fit a dragon in the army that won't scream cheese? (I love the model).

I figure that's a good start for questions. I didn't mean to sound rude at the beginning, but I'm asking questions because I don't know what I'm doing, so pointing me in a direction other than 'keep scrambling in the dark' is more what I'm looking for.

Oh, and I don't want to field any special characters, as I feel they are a crutch.

Champion89
07-04-2009, 06:36
1) Core selection: Archer, Spearmen or Sea Guard. I see the uses of all three, but what units work best with otherunits in the book? Do the spearmen have good synergy with, say, the Swordmasters?

I would say that Sea Guard are the best if you can spare the points. Most of the time sea guard are not taken because people want some more of the special units. Spearmen are great for sticking out close to the enemy saying go ahead charge them. they are the cheapest and no push overs with three ranks of fighting. Archers are more along the lines of well i need two core units guess i'll take 10 archers. (honestly they cant do much I don't suggest buying more)
I would suggest spearmen if you decide to try the guard just add the bows onto the models.


2) Dragon Princes: 5 or 9? (Both with a character)
you seem upset with your Silver Helms just proxy them if you need too. its all they are good for.
As for DPs I don't suggest a character with them and i dont suggest the 9 sized unit either. 400 pts in a single unit of cavalry doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I suggest the minimum unit size and commandless. keep them in the corner of the field until the enemy is almost upon your battle line (i play a little more defensively letting my RBTs shoot as much as they can). However if you put a character in them they are going to need that full command with the ellyrion banner.


3) Lion Chariot: Good enough to stand on it's own, or does it need to be supported? And if so, by what?

I'm disappointed with the lion chariot, cost to much. I prefer two normal chariots or a unit of 5 DPs. I think a lion chariot should only be taken when Korhil is riding it.


4) Character Selection/Magic Item Selection: What are the more popular choices? I am totally lost on magic items, as I almost never use them in my other lists (Orcs and Dwarves). What works well with what? This is where I am the most confused, and could use the most advice.

This really is where the army is built around as far as my High Elves go. I pick the characters and work from there. I would suggest the tactica for ideas on what to take. The very first post of it has a bunch of good combinations.


5) White Lions over Swordmasters? And what size should the units be? 5? 10? 15?

Swordmasters. I like my units on the larger size i run them 18 6x3. But i have seem people take sizes down to 7. I just think they would have to take a panic test everytime an arrow flew their way. Any size really works. It just depends on how many points you have left to use.


6) How many repeater bolt throwers are too many? Is anything past 2 cheesy?
7) Are great eagles worth it? They seem great on paper, but from my experience a single model like that tend to be free VP for the enemy. Unless I'm missing some kind of trick that makes them fantastic.

Depends on the opponent. I dont suggest more than 3. Having a rare slot of an eagle is worth it. At the same time i dont suggest less than 2.
Eagles can be great depending on the opposing army. if it is a gun line yeah your eagle is toast. it will never get close enough unless you have something to hide it behind. If the opponent is cc heavy then march block. Even move the eagle in front of them just inside charge range and flee. In my experience one eagle has a hell of a time taking out warmachines. Two eagles is no problem. Shadow warriors help too.



8) What is the ideal size for Spearmen? I've tried 2 X 15 (utter fail) and 1 X 25 that never saw combat.

I'm getting tired so 18, 6x3. Maybe 24, 6x4


9) I'm aware that a Prince on a Star Dragon is one of the win buttons for high Elves, but is there a way to fit a dragon in the army that won't scream cheese? (I love the model).

Dunno never taken one. Too many frowns when its talked about. Yet everyone still plays Demons... haha I love kicking Demon ass :) Always a good game at least when I get to take an army geared for them.


Okay I'm tired hope I helped.

Champion89
07-04-2009, 06:43
Okay one more comment.


The biggest advice on 'How do I play High Elves" is "Go and play them". That's like asking "How do I walk?" and getting a response "Go walk around a bit and you'll figure it out".

You can't teach a baby to walk they have to figure it out on their own. Same thing goes with warhammer armies unless you just want to copy the tournament winning lists. People can give you ideas but when it comes down to it you are the one running your army, you need to know what works, you need to know how to work it.

WhiteLion
07-04-2009, 11:51
Just a note, and the reason you probably received the answers you did. High elves, unlike a lot of other armies, don't seem to have a lot of clear choices. For example, look at our elite infantry -- they all perform very different roles. On top of that, they are a very tactical and unforgiving army, list building with them just doesn't work as well as other top tourney armies.

So, it's good that you asked more specific questions, but also keep in mind that there is a lot of debate and differing opinions surrounding each of them. In fact, I've seen threads (sometimes multiple threads) discussing many of your questions on their own. I sent you a PM to what I consider an excellent Warhammer site more specific to high elves. Also, due to the nature of high elves, a lot of your questions will be tough to answer unless we are answering specific questions to your army list. (see my first answer as an example;) )

1) Core selection: Archer, Spearmen or Sea Guard. I see the uses of all three, but what units work best with otherunits in the book? Do the spearmen have good synergy with, say, the Swordmasters?

They all have different uses. I usually take one unit of archers to deal with fast cav and then either LSG, if I want flexibility, or spears if I need static combat res in my list. Usually, I take the spears if I don't take a block of Phoenix Guard.


2) Dragon Princes: 5 or 9?

5 or 6, unless you want to do 9 with the standard of balance and the BSB with the Battle Banner. There's also a thread on this currently in the tactics section.


3) Lion Chariot: Good enough to stand on it's own, or does it need to be supported? And if so, by what?

I like the Lion Chariot but it works best as a countercharge or when supporting a charge. It can stand on it's own against smaller units, but not against fully ranked up infantry. Going against a small unit of heavy cavalry can be a risk. The true beauty of them is that the are fear causing (and thus immune to fear) which is something that high elves, with low numbers and few options to protect against psychology are vulnerable to. The upside over tiranoc chariots is that they are far more reliable. Roll a "1" on impact hits with a lion chariot and you are still likely to cause casualties, whereas a tiranoc can whiff.


4) Character Selection/Magic Item Selection: What are the more popular choices? I am totally lost on magic items, as I almost never use them in my other lists (Orcs and Dwarves). What works well with what? This is where I am the most confused, and could use the most advice.

A_: Archmage w/ Silver Wand a couple of dispel scrolls and the ring of fury, Lvl 2 with seerstaff and dispel scroll, BSB with the armor of caledor (if on foot or helm of fortune if on a steed) and guardian phoenix or battle banner.

B: Prince on Star Dragon: Armor of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, Amulet of Light, 2 Lvl 2s or a Lvl 1 scroll caddy.

There are lots of other options, obviously, but these are the most common that I see. There are others that might fulfill a specific role in an particular army list, of course, like the noble with the reaver bow, but I'll leave those out until you have a more solid picture of your list.


5) White Lions over Swordmasters? And what size should the units be?

Again they perform different roles. White Lions are for holding units up as they just don't get enough attacks even at str 6 to be killers. I like mine in units of 12 (hold up a unit for one turn until help arrives) or 18 (more of a tarpit). I've used them in smaller units to guard the flanks of the battlefield as even heavy cav can be nervous about charging them. They need the lion banner to make them truly effective against most armies. WL are less vulnerable to shooting.

Swordmasters are there to kill stuff. Best fielded as 7 or 14 (if you want to be able to take some casualties to shooting) SM can take most things head on even in a small number. They are a shooting magnet. SM are a nice unit to give the Standard of Balance.

I like my white lions:P, but I tend to take swordmasters over them.



6) How many repeater bolt throwers are too many? Is anything past 2 cheesy?

It depends on what is in the rest of your list. 4 bolt throwers plus a star dragon is pretty disgusting, but 4 rbts plus an all infantry list -- not so much. Still some people will hate it. 2-3 is usually ok.


7) Are great eagles worth it? They seem great on paper, but from my experience a single model like that tend to be free VP for the enemy. Unless I'm missing some kind of trick that makes them fantastic.

Yep. There is nothing in the army list for cheaper than 85 points. Eagles are the best tool we have to divert enemy units, like stegadons, chariots, or other things we don't want charging us. I usually take 2 of them. For me, they are usually tie up units that are worth 4x the eagle or more. This allows you to be able to deal with other parts of the army while that big expensive unit is tied up.

They end up dying in most of my games, but I look at them like pawns being sacrificed in a chess match for better position or a larger piece. I tend to hold them behind my battle line until they are needed to jump out and redirect. Sad for such noble allies, but that's what they are there for...



8) What is the ideal size for Spearmen? I've tried 2 X 15 (utter fail) and 1 X 25 that never saw combat.

I go with 19 with a character and throw the warbanner in there. They are all about static combat res
(Despite their numerous attacks, I've run the numbers and against all but low T and lightly armored opponents, and their better off with more ranks vs. a large amount of attacks).

9) I'm aware that a Prince on a Star Dragon is one of the win buttons for high Elves, but is there a way to fit a dragon in the army that won't scream cheese? (I love the model).

Some opponents will always be frustrated by it, period, and it will feel like rock, paper, scissors. It's not an autowin, though.

sroblin
07-04-2009, 12:48
1) Core selection: Archer, Spearmen or Sea Guard. I see the uses of all three, but what units work best with otherunits in the book? Do the spearmen have good synergy with, say, the Swordmasters?

Spearmen are your 'cheap' static infantry block that also happen to be really good at destroying similar units in other armies. Archers aren't great, but they have uses taking out fast cavalry, and other low toughness low save troops. Taking one of each wouldn't be that bad, or you can decide to be more shooty or combatty and have two of one of them. SeaGuard perform both roles, but are 50% more expensive than either.



2) Dragon Princes: 5 or 9? (Both with a character)

I would recommmend 5 with a character, or 6 without. 9 is too much to be paying for models that won't be fighting.



3) Lion Chariot: Good enough to stand on it's own, or does it need to be supported? And if so, by what?

Under normal circumstances, the Lion Chariot needs support, unless it is charging a weak unit. It's not good enough to defeat a block on its own. Chariots work well on combined charges with ANY infantry, cavalry, or other chariots.



4) Character Selection/Magic Item Selection: What are the more popular choices?

High Elves nobles and princes with greatweapons or mounted with lances are good for supporting combat units, spreading their leadership, and with good defensive items, can also tie down enemy heroes for a while. BSBs are considered bargain, now that they don't prevent you from taking shields or great weapons. In a magic heavy army, a single noble performing this role can providing LD9 can be useful. Finally, a 'sniper' noble on a Great eagle armed with the reaver bow is a popular setup in many armies.
In terms of mages, it is probably worth at least 1 (high lore) mage for magic defense even in combat armies. You can run a very good medium magic phase with 2 mages if you combine them with the banner of sorcery. An archmage + mage is a decent heavy magic setup without being too character heavy.

A quick brief on items: High Elves have lots of GREAT defensive items if you look in the Magic Armor & Talisman section, many of them highly affordable. It is easy to outfit a Noble mounted with a lance or on foot with a great sword to be pretty tough and good at absorbing attacks. The magic weapons are not very good, though: only the StarLance is very popular for melee, though both the magic bows are pretty good, and perhaps the White Sword deserves an honorabe mention; often a mundane greatsword or lance is the best choice. All of the talismans 25 points or lower are good, some worth putting on unit champs if you like them; talisman of Loec is the best 'melee weapon' you can give a character (combined with an appropriatly high strength weapon.) Also Ring of Fury is excellent if you want a strong magic phase.
HE arcane items are great, but the most useful for the cost tend to be Jewel of Dusk, the silverwand, or the seerstaff. Annulian crystal is good if you want to go very magic defensive, though you usually want to take a dispel scroll or 2. The best powerup to the HE Magic phase? Banner of Sorcery!
The cheap unit banners are all great, take advantage of them! Battle Banner is also famously powerful, but is an expensive and vulnerable character setup.



5) White Lions over Swordmasters? And what size should the units be? 5? 10? 15?

I advocates units of 12 or 14 in 2 ranks (don't think its good to spend much more than that on rear-rankers). Swordmasters are significantly deadlier than White Lions, but White Lions are harder to kill with ranged attacks and are stubborn, so they perform somewhat different roles.



6) How many repeater bolt throwers are too many? Is anything past 2 cheesy?

WhiteLion's answer is good here.



7) Are great eagles worth it? They seem great on paper, but from my experience a single model like that tend to be free VP for the enemy. Unless I'm missing some kind of trick that makes them fantastic.

Keeping them out of LoS mostly. Having 1-2 to march block and harass warmachines is popular, probably easier and definitely cheaper than doing that with Shadow Warriors (on the other hand, they can shoot...)



8) What is the ideal size for Spearmen? I've tried 2 X 15 (utter fail) and 1 X 25 that never saw combat.
Minimum size of 18 so they can get off 3 ranks of attacks, but 20 +/- a character is good too, possibly deployed 3x7 or 4x5 depending on the toughness of your opponent.



9) I'm aware that a Prince on a Star Dragon is one of the win buttons for high Elves, but is there a way to fit a dragon in the army that won't scream cheese? (I love the model).

You could use one of the weaker kinds. Still will be expensive, but you could bring the points down from something like 630 to 480-550, and it will be less able to defeat units by itself. The Dragon Mage isn't overpowered, though some people might still think it is; I actually think it's pretty weak. Unfortunately, it still ends up costing you about 25% of your armies point value, sigh...

Makarion
07-04-2009, 19:07
I don't play high elves, but in my experience the spearmen rarely do much at all. They get tied up all game by cheap state troops / goblins, and too often they get killed by anything more dangerous. As a result, it seems popular around here to use 2 small units of archers as core choices.

Mr Potato Head
07-04-2009, 19:34
Hi, I thought I'd give you my two pennies worth. First you really need to think about what kind of player you are/want to be. By this I mean is your play aggressive or defensive. Once you've answered this you can then think about the kind of list that is going to maximise your play style. Of course, you can play both styles;).

As others have said with regards to Dragon Princes I take them in units of 5, full command with a noble with the battle banner. Expensive yes, but its a shock unit that has to break units in one turn. If it doesn't your still hitting with loads of attacks but there all at str 3, which frankly is rubbish nowadays. But on the charge with the battle banner your'e chucking out a lot of damage with the added bonus of d6 to combat res. They will attract a lot of fire, so it can be useful to equip them with the banner of elyrion.

Now, WL's v SMasters. Both have their uses. Personally I prefer WL's with a noble/prince and run them 6 wide, 2 or 3 ranks. The reason I take them is that they are much more versatile, with the woodsmen rule, can take shooting, and with a hero pack a punch in combat. With so many fear and terror units I take two 6x3 units, one with the anti d elf banner aka standard of balance and the other with lion standard. Hold up a unit and then flank with the dprinces.

Also don't overlook the loremasters cloak on a noble/mage. 2+ ward for the unit against magic spells. Gold and only 40 points!

Lastly, eagles. Love em. Cheap, warmachine hunters, march blockers, diverters, mage hunters (for those foolish to leave them on their own). I always take two.

But most of all, enjoy high elves. Yeah asf helps, but they require a lot of skill to use to their best potential. They are expensive and you need to make use of your movement.

Anyway, enjoy them. I know I do.:)

Green Feevah!
07-04-2009, 20:51
Wow! This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank-you guys for helping me get some real answers.

But, I have more questions:

A) Is the Dragon Mage of Caledor worth anything, or is it totally rubbish? I see it as being expensive, but very distracting. However, am I paying too much for a distraction?
B) Seriously, are Silver Helms good at anything?
C) Ellyrian Reavers, Pheonix Guard and Shadow Warriors... I've never really considered these units; should I? Have I missed something about these units that makes them real stand outs, or am I right in thinking they are too specialized for my wannabe-all-comers list?
D) Would it be worth it to do 2 units of LSG as my core? And what is a good size for them?
E) Follow up question: Is 2 core too little? The games I've run I've done 3 (25 Spearmen and 2 X 10 Archers). Am I using too much core or not enough (I'm not finding them very effective at anything, though if I had to draw a line, I'd say the Archers are outperforming the Spearmen)
F) If I build a magic-heavy list (which worked badly for me last game (4 miscasts in 6 turns, 3 of which caused me to lose half of my magic phase) I'm guessing I should play more defensive... the question is how? I get stand back and shoot from playing Dwarves, but my Stunties can take the charge; it seems to me that most High Elf units can't. So where is the balance?
G) I have a BSB modelled on horseback, and have been running him with 5 DPs. I've done different combinations of banners on that unit, but I'm starting to wonder that maybe a fighty Noble would be better in that unit and the BSB over with the Spearmen, Archers and other stationary units. Is this a good idea, or do I need that BSB and the CR he provides to give the DP the punch they need?
H) Assuming I go with a noble, what is a good kit for him on horseback? On foot?
I) I'm currently running an Archmage with the Silver Wand and the Ring of Fury, a Dragon Mage with dispel scrolls and the BSB mounted with either the Battle Banner or the Banner of Ellyrion. Is this a better configuration for my heroes? It's the hero selection and equipping I feel I'm the most lost on (and therefore don't even know what questions to ask).

I get that the High Elves can not win just by building an armylist. I was actually just saying that to a friend of mine. Most other armies, you can look through their Army Book and get a sense of what the army as a whole does. Not so with the High Elves. That said, I thought the same thing about Eldar in 40k when I started with them years ago, and they are now my favorite army (and the most rewarding to play). I'm really hoping the High Elves are the same way, but in every game I've played so far it just feels like nothing is working the way it's supposed to, which is why I am turning to you guys for help; not so much with building the army, but seeing where the strength lies in the units and what works well with what.

Again big thanks to WhiteLion, sroblin and Mr Potato Head for the insight I have been looking for.

isidril93
07-04-2009, 21:29
A) if you want a non cheesy dragon list then take one
B) compared to DP...no
C) ellyrion reavers are a good fast cavalary and shadow warriors are one of my favourite units
D) sorry dont really use them...i suggest 2 units of 12 or 18
E) i always use minimum core (high elves are the only army that can use 2 only so make use of it)
F) magic lists are best against CC slow armies...against gunlines it would be hard

ill answer the rest tomorrow :)

WhiteLion
08-04-2009, 03:35
A) Is the Dragon Mage of Caledor worth anything, or is it totally rubbish? I see it as being expensive, but very distracting. However, am I paying too much for a distraction?

I tend to think they are even expensive for what they do and a bit vulnerable, but I have heard people find them useful.




B) Seriously, are Silver Helms good at anything?

If I have 115 points in my list and think I need more cav...maybe...Seriously, though, 5 silverhelms with shields can be decent warmachine hunters and can go after enemy 10 packs of archers. They can also be used to "babysit" shooting elements (like a couple of bolt throwers and a unit of archers on a hill.) All are jobs that dragon princes would do better, but you would want the princes to do more important things. Oh, and some people like to use them in a large pack as a Battle Banner delivery system....



C) Ellyrian Reavers, Pheonix Guard and Shadow Warriors... I've never really considered these units; should I? Have I missed something about these units that makes them real stand outs, or am I right in thinking they are too specialized for my wannabe-all-comers list?

Phoenix Guard are our best static res (and some of the best in the game) and since they can carry a magic banner, can be a good choice if you find the points for them. They do require a hero to add punch and they are expensive.

Reavers and Shadow Warriors are both pretty expensive for basically being "vanilla" elf scouts and fast cav. That said, they are all we have to fulfill those roles. Reavers are good if your rare are taken up and you need marchblocking, harassment, or redirection. There's a bit more they can do, like warmachine hunt and go after solo mages. Shadow warriors are good at some of those same things with the addition that they can counter enemy scout placement by getting the advantageous spot first. In the end, both of these units are very expensive for being so fragile. Often one of them makes it into my list, but I rarely have felt like I missed them when I did leave them out. More rarely do both units make an appearance in the same list.



D) Would it be worth it to do 2 units of LSG as my core? And what is a good size for them?

I usually only go with one otherwise it gets expensive but a GT winning list had two of them. I fit what I can in a list. Sometimes that's 10 but at most 15 with full command and the warbanner (surprises opponents!). Anything between 10-15 can be effective in different ways. Some people argue that you need more than 10 in case just so you can use fight in three ranks, I don't agree, even though it is nice.



E) Follow up question: Is 2 core too little? The games I've run I've done 3 (25 Spearmen and 2 X 10 Archers). Am I using too much core or not enough (I'm not finding them very effective at anything, though if I had to draw a line, I'd say the Archers are outperforming the Spearmen)

I rarely see lists with more than 2 core due to the expense of the rest of the army.



F) If I build a magic-heavy list (which worked badly for me last game (4 miscasts in 6 turns, 3 of which caused me to lose half of my magic phase) I'm guessing I should play more defensive... the question is how? I get stand back and shoot from playing Dwarves, but my Stunties can take the charge; it seems to me that most High Elf units can't. So where is the balance?

Ouch -- that's rough going. If I bring magic like this I tend to play defensively. There are units in our list that can take a charge, but it is also why eagles are important, so you aren't taking charges you don't want.



G) I have a BSB modelled on horseback, and have been running him with 5 DPs. I've done different combinations of banners on that unit, but I'm starting to wonder that maybe a fighty Noble would be better in that unit and the BSB over with the Spearmen, Archers and other stationary units. Is this a good idea, or do I need that BSB and the CR he provides to give the DP the punch they need?

You may simply have to use the DP a bit differently without the noble. I often don't run mine with a character, but I also don't smash them headlong into fully ranked infantry either unless I've run the numbers and I am going to win by a lot.

If you want the army to be able to take a charge, you need a bsb that is in range of your battle line, otherwise, it just becomes too unreliable. On the other hand, if the bsb has the battle banner, I like to have him with cavalry to give him options.




H) Assuming I go with a noble, what is a good kit for him on horseback? On foot?

As I mentioned above, my nobles almost always have:
On foot: Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, great weapon
On horse: Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Horse, Lance, Guardian Phoenix and Helm of Fortune.

Usually you can afford to go on the defense with your character's items since they have ASF and a great weapons is effective enough, or a lance on the charge. I usually don't have two nobles in my list, but Temakdor's Gauntlets are nice way to get a good ward on another. Or, a second noble (on foot) may get a great weapon and the reaver bow.




I) I'm currently running an Archmage with the Silver Wand and the Ring of Fury, a Dragon Mage with dispel scrolls and the BSB mounted with either the Battle Banner or the Banner of Ellyrion. Is this a better configuration for my heroes? It's the hero selection and equipping I feel I'm the most lost on (and therefore don't even know what questions to ask).

Hmmm...interesting. Since you are running a dragon mage, the best item for him is actually the silver wand since he gets an extra power die for every spell. This means the silver wand is essentially a power die. You could then give your archmage something else; perhaps the item that disregards your first miscast or the jewel of dusk, or even the anullian crystal to beef up your magic defense. Normally I take the silver wand on the archmage but I don't take a dragon mage. If I did, the dragon mage would definitely get it.

The BSB shouldn't have the Banner of Ellyrion, imo. Put that on the unit and give him the battle banner OR magic items but not a magic banner.

Otherwise, that's a solid selection of characters: BSB, dragon mage, and an archmage. One note, you mentioned adding another noble above, but you'd have to drop one of these characters completely to do it since the dragon mage eats an extra hero slot.

Green Feevah!
08-04-2009, 10:25
I responded in the bold parts.


I tend to think they are even expensive for what they do and a bit vulnerable, but I have heard people find them useful.

Well my biggest goal is to make this a fiendly list, and from what I've read, the Dragon Mage is the least offensive (in terms of player reaction) of the dragons.


If I have 115 points in my list and think I need more cav...maybe...Seriously, though, 5 silverhelms with shields can be decent warmachine hunters and can go after enemy 10 packs of archers. They can also be used to "babysit" shooting elements (like a couple of bolt throwers and a unit of archers on a hill.) All are jobs that dragon princes would do better, but you would want the princes to do more important things. Oh, and some people like to use them in a large pack as a Battle Banner delivery system....

I can't see where I'd have 115 extra ponts, but if I do I'll give it a shot... I take it you run them without command?

Phoenix Guard are our best static res (and some of the best in the game) and since they can carry a magic banner, can be a good choice if you find the points for them. They do require a hero to add punch and they are expensive.

Reavers and Shadow Warriors are both pretty expensive for basically being "vanilla" elf scouts and fast cav. That said, they are all we have to fulfill those roles. Reavers are good if your rare are taken up and you need marchblocking, harassment, or redirection. There's a bit more they can do, like warmachine hunt and go after solo mages. Shadow warriors are good at some of those same things with the addition that they can counter enemy scout placement by getting the advantageous spot first. In the end, both of these units are very expensive for being so fragile. Often one of them makes it into my list, but I rarely have felt like I missed them when I did leave them out. More rarely do both units make an appearance in the same list.

Sounds like good advice. I'm guessing Ellyrion go bare minimum at 5, but what's a good number for Shadow Warriors? And is the champion upgrade worth it?

I usually only go with one otherwise it gets expensive but a GT winning list had two of them. I fit what I can in a list. Sometimes that's 10 but at most 15 with full command and the warbanner (surprises opponents!). Anything between 10-15 can be effective in different ways. Some people argue that you need more than 10 in case just so you can use fight in three ranks, I don't agree, even though it is nice.



I rarely see lists with more than 2 core due to the expense of the rest of the army.

I'm really starting to lean toards 2 x 10 archers to save points... shame I bought all those spearmen though.


Ouch -- that's rough going. If I bring magic like this I tend to play defensively. There are units in our list that can take a charge, but it is also why eagles are important, so you aren't taking charges you don't want.

Yeah, and almost every miscast was on 2 dice... makes me wonder if a magic-heavy army is for me (says the Stunty player)

You may simply have to use the DP a bit differently without the noble. I often don't run mine with a character, but I also don't smash them headlong into fully ranked infantry either unless I've run the numbers and I am going to win by a lot.

If you want the army to be able to take a charge, you need a bsb that is in range of your battle line, otherwise, it just becomes too unreliable. On the other hand, if the bsb has the battle banner, I like to have him with cavalry to give him options.

I tried him a few days ago with the Battle Banner, and noticed that my combat res (from hitting in a flank) was already pretty high. I have since switched him to the War Banner and give nthe unit standard the Banner of Ellyrion.


As I mentioned above, my nobles almost always have:
On foot: Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, great weapon
On horse: Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Horse, Lance, Guardian Phoenix and Helm of Fortune.

Usually you can afford to go on the defense with your character's items since they have ASF and a great weapons is effective enough, or a lance on the charge. I usually don't have two nobles in my list, but Temakdor's Gauntlets are nice way to get a good ward on another. Or, a second noble (on foot) may get a great weapon and the reaver bow.

So where does a foot-based Noble fit? Do I build a unit of Pheonix Guard around him? Currently I'd have him sitting in the spearmen unit, which in my mind have under-performed in every battle. Will this make the spearmen perform better or just waste my Noble on a unit that only ever shines in a very specific situation?


Hmmm...interesting. Since you are running a dragon mage, the best item for him is actually the silver wand since he gets an extra power die for every spell. This means the silver wand is essentially a power die. You could then give your archmage something else; perhaps the item that disregards your first miscast or the jewel of dusk, or even the anullian crystal to beef up your magic defense. Normally I take the silver wand on the archmage but I don't take a dragon mage. If I did, the dragon mage would definitely get it.

How ironic.. I was playing around with the list this morning and did just that.



The BSB shouldn't have the Banner of Ellyrion, imo. Put that on the unit and give him the battle banner OR magic items but not a magic banner.

Is the War Banner a better option than magic items? Or should I just rely on the combat res I already have and hope the survivability he'd gain with magic items would make up for my appalling dice rolls?

Otherwise, that's a solid selection of characters: BSB, dragon mage, and an archmage. One note, you mentioned adding another noble above, but you'd have to drop one of these characters completely to do it since the dragon mage eats an extra hero slot.

Yeah I noticed that too after I posted... my bad.

See now I really feel like I'm getting the answers I need. And without the 6-12 months of bashing my head against the wall trying to figure it out solo. That said... more questions!

1) What is a good size for a White Lions unit? Assume both on the their own and with a foot bound Noble. Command on this unit?
2) Same sort of question with Swordmasters? Is there any benefit to putting a command in this unit?
3) Assuming I go with some Pheonix Guard, what's a good size unit? It was said that they have the best static res, so I'm guessing 20-ish?
4) Is the command on a 5-man DP unit worth it? Or am I wasting points?

Plus there are the questions I asked in the above replies. Re-stated for ease of answering:

A) I'm guessing Ellyrion go bare minimum at 5, but what's a good number for Shadow Warriors? And is the champion upgrade worth it?
B) So where does a foot-based Noble fit? Do I build a unit of Pheonix Guard around him?
C) About my BSB: Is the War Banner a better option than magic items? Or should I just rely on the combat res I already have and hope the survivability he'd gain with magic items would make up for my appalling dice rolls?

Thank-you guys for your answers, this is really helping me out!

ScytheSwathe
08-04-2009, 11:08
White lions are good in units of 6, naked. They can hold up enemy flankers due to stubborn, and ASF at S6, and make useful flankers themselves. Not sure the best way to field them with a noble, i'll leave that so people who know more.

I like my phoenix guard, mostly for the models. 20 is a good number, then i tend to add a battle banner BSB in there for 'kick' or if im going magic heavy, radient gem is amusing, for a fightly/magicy/BSB in a tough unit.

I wouldnt bother with war banner on the BSB, considering that the unit can carry that anyway, you can make your BSB survivable with the magic items.

On going magicy, heres a thought, Archmage, with Silver wand, ring of fury, and a dispel scroll.. You seem to like the idea of a dragon mage, so try that with guardian phoenix, and jewel of the dusk(?!) and a BSB with radient gem, Find a unit to put banner of sorcery in, and youve got `10+D3 power dice per turn, plus the extra ones from the dragon mage and a bound spell, 6 dispel dice with +1 on roll and a dispel scroll. As well as havign a BSB to help you take a charge, and a dragon. though it is the best part of half your army, mostly thanks to the dragon.
Thats just off the top of my head, so its probably terrible by many peoples standards, but just throwing it out there. Might be amusing.

Desert Rain
08-04-2009, 12:36
1) Core selection: Archer, Spearmen or Sea Guard. I see the uses of all three, but what units work best with otherunits in the book? Do the spearmen have good synergy with, say, the Swordmasters?

I love our spearmen, against most normal infantry units they are awesome but they suffer against enemies with higher values in T, WS and high armour saves. Seagurad are basically the same but you also have bows. See my earlier post for more of my thoughts on them. Archers are a bit overpriced but I use a unit of 10 because they are rather good at killing fast cavalry or killing a few models in enemy units so that they lose a point of rank bonus.

2) Dragon Princes: 5 or 9? (Both with a character)

I would go for 2 units of 5, either vanilla or with a musician. 9 are a bit counterproductive as you're paying a lot for models that won't be able to attack.

3) Lion Chariot: Good enough to stand on it's own, or does it need to be supported? And if so, by what?

I believe that chariots are best as supporters to other units, be it infantry or cavalry. The lion chariot hit ver hard and might be able to break a smaller enemy unit on it's own. Personally I prefer 2 Tiranocs instead but if you like the model you should take it.

4) Character Selection/Magic Item Selection: What are the more popular choices? I am totally lost on magic items, as I almost never use them in my other lists (Orcs and Dwarves). What works well with what? This is where I am the most confused, and could use the most advice.

An archmage with silver wand a scroll or 2 and the ring of fury possibly with the guardian phoenix is a solid choice. Especially when he is backed up with a level 2 mage with a scroll and the seerstaff. Throw in the banner of sorcery too and you'll have a really good magic phase.
The other option is the prince, the best items for him is probably the armour of caledor and the vambraces of defense, unless he's mounted on a horse, then he'll be fine with dragon armour and a shield instead of the armour of caledor.
Some other useful items are: Talisman of Loec, either on a noble with the white sword or on a swordmaster champion.
Folariath's Robe, good item of protection for an archmage.
Jewel of Dusk, another power dice is always nice to have.

If you go with the magic heavy alternative you really should have the banner of sorcery.

5) White Lions over Swordmasters? And what size should the units be? 5? 10? 15?

Personally I prefer Swordmasters as they work better in the list I'm using. I guess that White Lions are the best all around infantry choice in the list. Swormasters are good in smaller sizes from 7 to 14 deployed as wide as possible. THey wor well in larger units too, I have had great success with a unit of 18. I've never used White Lions personally but I would guess that they do best in units between 15 and 20. Their abillities are greatly enhanced by a combat character. If you take one of these units give them either the Standard of Balance or the Lion Standard as you don't want them to run away from fear or terror.

6) How many repeater bolt throwers are too many? Is anything past 2 cheesy?

2 Bolt Throwers in a 2000 points army is fine. If you take more than that you'' probably hear comments about cheese.

7) Are great eagles worth it? They seem great on paper, but from my experience a single model like that tend to be free VP for the enemy. Unless I'm missing some kind of trick that makes them fantastic.

Great Eagles are great :rolleyes: They are our cheapest unit and do wonders as march blockers re-directors, war machine hunters and other things that annoy the enemy.

8) What is the ideal size for Spearmen? I've tried 2 X 15 (utter fail) and 1 X 25 that never saw combat.

I would say that you will do fine with either 18, 20, 21, 24 or 25.

9) I'm aware that a Prince on a Star Dragon is one of the win buttons for high Elves, but is there a way to fit a dragon in the army that won't scream cheese? (I love the model).

You don't have to take a Star Dragon, a prince on a Moon Dragon is fine as well, and I don't think that many people will call that cheese. Otherwise you can always try a dragon mounted archmage or a dragon mage.[QUOTE]

Puh, that took some time ;) Hope that something of it was useful for you!

WhiteLion
08-04-2009, 13:21
1) What is a good size for a White Lions unit? Assume both on the their own and with a foot bound Noble. Command on this unit?

I like the champ for the extra attack and the standard bearer allows them to take the Lion Banner to avoid fear and terror. As I said before: 12-18, and they can be taken in very small units like 6 (as mentioned above). If there's a noble in there, I'd definitely go with full command and the lion banner and I'd also put the unit at 17. The larger the unit, the more likely I would be to go with command.

Also, the champ can be a good place for something like the dragonhorn or gem of courage, or something like that if you are trying to fit into your list.



2) Same sort of question with Swordmasters? Is there any benefit to putting a command in this unit?

The champion's extra attack is beneficial again. Also some folks like to put the talisman of loec on the champ and make him a suicide challenger/character killer.

A musician isn't as necessary here, but a standard like the Standard of Balance or even a basic banner can give them just that little bit of extra res. Again, I'd use full command in a unit of 14, but in a unit of 7 I'd just upgrade with the champ.



3) Assuming I go with some Pheonix Guard, what's a good size unit? It was said that they have the best static res, so I'm guessing 20-ish?

20 is good if you can afford them (or 19 with a character, and you'll be surprised when you actually autobreak something.) Otherwise. 14 or 15 with a character and the warbanner can do the trick.



4) Is the command on a 5-man DP unit worth it? Or am I wasting points?

A champ is only worth the price if you have another character and end up not wanting to take a challenge with the character. I tend not to waste points on command unless I am bringing the banner of ellyrion.



A) I'm guessing Ellyrion go bare minimum at 5, but what's a good number for Shadow Warriors? And is the champion upgrade worth it?

5 for both. No (better off bringing another mdoel instead of the champ in both cases). Musician on the reavers is good.



B) So where does a foot-based Noble fit? Do I build a unit of Pheonix Guard around him?

Yep, he'll give the PG an extra punch and make them a very dangerous unit to your opponent. I also like shadow armor, enchanted shield, and a great weapon and have him scout with the shadow warriors or on his own. It's more of a fun use than anything and he very much becomes a utility player (hitting only the flanks of units or going after warmachines).



C) About my BSB: Is the War Banner a better option than magic items? Or should I just rely on the combat res I already have and hope the survivability he'd gain with magic items would make up for my appalling dice rolls?

No, no and no. The warbanner gives you +1 combat res, but then you have a T3 character with at best a 2+ armor save. You are correct that the survivability he gains from items like the guardian phoenix and helm of fortune will normally net you = to or more combat res than the warbanner, especially when you need them;).

One other note, Daddy_cool brings up some good points, especially on the banner of sorcery or even trying the bsb with a gem of hoeth (even this is better than the warbanner on the bsb!). On the other hand, the jewel of dusk is not worth it on a dragon mage, since silver wand gives you an extra spell (which again means an extra power die!) and at 5 points cheaper. Then you can actually give the jewel to your archmage. Switching the scrolls to the archmage and buying the guardian phoenix is a good option, though.

sroblin
08-04-2009, 13:37
1) What is a good size for a White Lions unit? Assume both on the their own and with a foot bound Noble. Command on this unit?


I think 14 makes for a very nice solid unit which can get maximum attacks and a rank bonus when set up 7X2, and can survive for a while doing stubborn tarpitting. I suppos unitse of 12 would work for that purpose as well. Of course, you can go he small unit route with them too, though they won't be as well of in protracted fights, they will be half the cost. I think the champion is absolutely worth it (because they need every extra attack they can get), standard usually is too because White Lions don't do much fleeing.



2) Same sort of question with Swordmasters? Is there any benefit to putting a command in this unit?

I think they work well in similarly sized units to White Lions, but less on the larger side of things because they aren't good at tarpitting like White Lions are (no stubborn.) So between 7-14; I think it's worth taking a rear rank so that the unit can still fight after receiving missile fire, though some people like the small units of 7. Whatever you do, always rank them at least 6 across. I think the Champion is less important for Swordmasters because they're already pretty choppy, but the standard and musician probably are worthwhile if you have a second rank, you don't want the larger units to break!



3) Assuming I go with some Pheonix Guard, what's a good size unit? It was said that they have the best static res, so I'm guessing 20-ish?

I think 19-20 is the best size; you could cut corners at 14-15 (with character), or max at 24-25 (for a high chance of breakings units with fear.) The problem I have with Phoenix Guard is that you really need larger units (ie more expensive) for them to work compared to the other elites, even though they are less good at killing things.

Adding a combat character really helps them win combats, because they don't hit hard. If with a character (mage or fighter), a Phoenix Guard champion can be a good idea to protect them from challenges. You definitely want the standard and musician regardless.



4) Is the command on a 5-man DP unit worth it? Or am I wasting points?


For a 5 man unit, I think it is better to go light on command, personally, because the unit is too light to small to take on heavy fights anyway. Standards aren't bad (especially if you upgrade them to Ellyrian banner) but cost a lot. Musicians are more affordable, certainly wouldn't want to get stuck in a combat because you couldn't break a tie. But they're all optional for smaller units.



A) I'm guessing Ellyrion go bare minimum at 5, but what's a good number for Shadow Warriors? And is the champion upgrade worth it?


5-9 I think, probaby better on the smaller side because of the cost. There is really no reason I can think of to take the champion unless you expect to be making challenges, an extra S3 attack is not worth 12 points IMO.



B) So where does a foot-based Noble fit? Do I build a unit of Pheonix Guard around him?

Foot based Nobles usually are employed to take full advantage of greatswords +2 strength, usually combined with armor of caledor and possibly another defensive upgrade to keep him survivable. You can plonk him in any infantry unit, and he will upgrade its hitting power and help tie down enemy heroes. Phoenix Guard or Spearmen are units that really improve with their presence, though they can be attached usefully to White Lions or Swordmasters to make a really scary units.
Conceivably you could also field one using the Reaver bow as a sniper, but these are more popular mounted.



C) About my BSB: Is the War Banner a better option than magic items? Or should I just rely on the combat res I already have and hope the survivability he'd gain with magic items would make up for my appalling dice rolls?

You can put the Warbanner or banner of Ellyrian on almost any HE unit that can take a standard, so there is no need to put it on the BSB. The magic items (particularly defensive ones) are really important towards keeping the BSB alive and hitting, the only one worth giving them up for is the Battle Banner, which is both potent and expensive.

rabitshadow
08-04-2009, 18:51
Haha, by playing poorhammer with 3000 points of HE I bought for 50 I can avoid all of this, as I get what I'm given and use what I've got.
But on topic, I strongly suggest Lothern Sea Guard (I have a load of those models, they look awesome hehe), they are very versatile, and in a tournament list work very well, as you don't know what your up against.

Walls
09-04-2009, 03:46
Hmmm...interesting. Since you are running a dragon mage, the best item for him is actually the silver wand since he gets an extra power die for every spell. This means the silver wand is essentially a power die.

Are we sure about this? Extra MAGIC LEVELS give more power dice, not more spells. The Silver Wand description states you get one spell extra for your level. It doesn't raise you a level. Otherwise vampires can have 6 pd extra for knowing all the spells.

Otherwise keep it up! Loving this so far, very informative answers to some good questions.

ScytheSwathe
09-04-2009, 09:16
Yeah silver wand only gives an extra spell, doesnt raise your magic level. I stick to havign it that way round, you should have enough pool power dice for the whereabouts of jewel of dusk shouldnt really matter, it just gets buffered with pool dice. Silver wand though is better on the archmage as it pretty much guarentees the spells you want by the time you pick 5.

Desert Rain
09-04-2009, 09:35
Are we sure about this? Extra MAGIC LEVELS give more power dice, not more spells. The Silver Wand description states you get one spell extra for your level. It doesn't raise you a level. Otherwise vampires can have 6 pd extra for knowing all the spells.

Otherwise keep it up! Loving this so far, very informative answers to some good questions.
It gives you an extra spell, and a dragon mage ads a free casting dice to each spell he casts, so if he has an extra spell he gets an extra dice as well when he's casting it.

TekDragon
09-04-2009, 09:52
Silver Wand on a Dragon Mage is an extra power dice.

Each spell the Dragon Mage casts gets an extra power dice. Normally you only know 2 spells. That allows you to cast one spell at X+1 dice and another at X+1, for a total of 2 extra power dice. With the silver wand you can then cast a third spell at X+1 dice, netting you a total of 3 extra power dice per turn.

[Edit] Phooey.

WhiteLion
09-04-2009, 12:48
It gives you an extra spell, and a dragon mage ads a free casting dice to each spell he casts, so if he has an extra spell he gets an extra dice as well when he's casting it.

This is what I was getting at. Obviously, you do need to attempt to cast the extra spell to get the extra die. Due to the dragon mage mechanic, the silver wand becomes a 2 for 1.

Walls
09-04-2009, 18:59
ohhhh.... so when you cast that specific extra spell you get an extra power dice. Gotcha!

LKHERO
09-04-2009, 19:11
Dragon Mages are a waste of points.

If you're ever going to take a Dragon, take a Prince on Star Dragon. You can either go with Star Lance + Vambraces of Defenses, or Halbred/Lance + Amulet of Light + Armor of Caledor + Vambraces of Defense. Those are two very solid viable options, the first being more aggressive and the second being more defensive.

If you play with a Dragon, you have to play smart. Don't charge combats you can't win and be patient. Use your Terror checks and breath attacks and double charge with DPs/Chariots.

Some popular combos I like:

BSB on foot with Armor of Caledor + Great Weapon.
BSB in Dragon Prince setup with Battle Banner.

Best hero in the entire book is Korhil for the points. He's Stubborn on a 9, 3 attacks at WS6 S6 Killing Blow and has a 4+ armor save/3+ vs shooting and is Immune to Poison. Put him a unit of Spears and he makes the entire unit Stubborn on a 9 and can seriously make a difference in any fight.

I like Teclis, a lot. He's by far the most cost effective offensive caster in the game.
If I take Teclis, I also take Caradryan because he offers any unit he's in MR3 as well as offering his soul in a challenge for D6 no armor save wounds upon death.

I also like RBTs and I'm a firm believer that if you take RBTs, you should take them in Mass or they won't make their points back for sure. HE shooting sucks compared to Empire, Dwarves, WE, so you have to make the best with what you have.

Great Eagles are great for March blocking and nothing else.. just don't expect them to March block any shooting fast Cav as its the best way to lose your Eagle.

Phoenix Guard is good for winning combat res and nothing else, so I would only take them if it's to hold a Banner of Sorcery with a mounted BSB + Battle Banner. Don't expect them to kill anything in combat because they only get 1 attack at S4.

Sword Masters should be used as MSU and MSU only because they're paper thin, draw a lot of fire and will most likely never see combat unless you put them on the flank of your spears. Spear unit in the middle, a 5-6 squad of DPs with Banner of Ellyrion or 6-7 Sword Masters w/ Blade Lord on the flank. Anything that hits those Spears will get destroyed by the counter-charge.

White Lions are the best special infantry in the book because they're Elves with S6 and can actually kill things that charge them (like Knights). Their Woodsman ability is also great and they're Stubborn on a 9.. which is amazing because that means they'll kill things and tarpit whatever hit them.

As for Core, go with min core, 2 groups of 10 Archers or 10 LSG., or a mix of 20x Spearmen and the above two.

And out of the Chariot choices, I like the Lion Chariots because they actually make a difference in combat. They cause Fear and they have 6 WS5 S5 attacks on the charge on top of their impact hits. That can serious wreck some stuff.

The thing to remember is that your army has to work together. If you want to dominate the ranged phase; capitalize on Magic/Shooting. This would mean a ton of Mages (or Teclis), Banner of Sorcery and 3-4x RBT. If you want mobility, work with Cavalry, Chariots and Dragons. You'll also find that RBTs work extremely well in Dragon lists because it diverts fire from your Dragon to deal with the 4 RBTs that's shooting him. This also sets up your Dragon for a lot of easy charges.

Walls
09-04-2009, 20:39
What if a guy didn't want to use characters or a star dragon? I know the star dragon gets lots and lots of frowns in regular games and, IMO (and I think Green Feevah's), characters are meant for big games, if at all.

WhiteLion
09-04-2009, 20:59
What if a guy didn't want to use characters or a star dragon? I know the star dragon gets lots and lots of frowns in regular games and, IMO (and I think Green Feevah's), characters are meant for big games, if at all.

I think you are correct, that the OP did not want to bring the Star Dragon and is pretty set on the Dragonmage.

LKHERO
09-04-2009, 21:02
I think you are correct, that the OP did not want to bring the Star Dragon and is pretty set on the Dragonmage.

Then I'd probably say maximize on Magic and a lot of shooting because a Dragon Mage by itself isn't going to do anything.

You can fit a Dragon Mage, a Archmage and a another mage into a 2000-2250 point game for a seriously strong magic phase. I would put Silverwand + Ring of Fury on the Dragon Mage, Jewel of Dusk and 2x Power Stones on the Archmage, and Seerstaff on the Lv.2.

ZoomDog
10-04-2009, 00:59
Their Woodsman ability is also great and they're Stubborn on a 9.. which is amazing because that means they'll kill things and tarpit whatever hit them.

White Lions are Ld 8.


I would put Silverwand + Ring of Fury on the Dragon Mage,

Presumably the Dragon Mage will spend the majority of the game in close combat, where he can't use the Ring of Fury. Seems a bit of a waste doesn't it?

LKHERO
10-04-2009, 02:15
Presumably the Dragon Mage will spend the majority of the game in close combat

If your opponent will let you have the Sword.. but even better because it draws out DD for Ring of Fury should your opponent choose to throw 2 dice trying to dispel it in the fear of being charged.

Desert Rain
10-04-2009, 11:26
White Lions are Ld 8.



Presumably the Dragon Mage will spend the majority of the game in close combat, where he can't use the Ring of Fury. Seems a bit of a waste doesn't it?
You can give White Lions a stubborn Ld9 with Korhil.

If I were to run a Dragon Mage I would give him the Silver Wand for more magical power and the Gurardian Phoenix so that he doesn't die as soon as I put him on the table.

ZoomDog
10-04-2009, 16:43
You can give White Lions a stubborn Ld9 with Korhil.

You can make any unit a stubborn Ld9 with Korhil. :P


If your opponent will let you have the Sword.. but even better because it draws out DD for Ring of Fury should your opponent choose to throw 2 dice trying to dispel it in the fear of being charged.
What I meant is that the Dragon is a close combat unit, the Ring of Fury is a ranged item. So if you're in combat the ring is being wasted, if you're not in combat the Dragon is being wasted. It's a bad combo.

Desert Rain
10-04-2009, 19:13
You can make any unit a stubborn Ld9 with Korhil. :P
Yeah that's great, to bad that he's a special character.

LKHERO
10-04-2009, 23:24
Yeah that's great, to bad that he's a special character.

So what? The High Elf book was designed to be min-maxed.

garythewargamer
11-04-2009, 00:28
a dragon mage is not primarily a close combat unit. your enemy will just challenge the mage and then your dragon is taking a leadership test to see what it does. I am not saying that it can not be used in combat with other units. In fact it works very good in the flank or rear on the second turn of combat or more. As long as the dragon does not get charged the next turn. The dragon is survivable but the mage is not.

Desert Rain
11-04-2009, 09:36
So what? The High Elf book was designed to be min-maxed.
I don't like to use special characters, plain and simple.
However, if there was a magic item that made a you stubborn I would take it in every game I'd ever play.

Green Feevah!
14-04-2009, 04:45
Thanks everyone for all the responses, and thanks Walls for picking up the slack for me while I was out of town.

I'm not dead set on the dragon, I just like the model and am still trying to figure out my heroes/lords for the list.

So just for a second, let's assume I'm not using a dragon, what is a solid combo of heroes. I know you guys have talked a lot abou tthe mages and a heavy magic phase, but do the Elves still work if I field a bunch of fighty lords? Or does that toughness 2 cripple them in combat?

garythewargamer
14-04-2009, 06:01
Hey they are toughness 3. We are weak enough without any help. If you decide to uses nobles they have to be protected. I like Korhil and the captain of the PG.

Sandstone
14-04-2009, 06:29
Elves work with combat lords, but you have to tool them cheaply. Here are some ideas:

Noble (85)
- Great Weapon (8)
- Dragon Armour (6)
- Temakador’s Gauntlets (30)
- The Amulet of Light (15)

Total = 144

Str 6 always strike first, magic attacks (for both him and the unit he's with), and an almost always 5+ ward, and 4+ armor for 144 points. It's simple, effective, and gives units like White Lions some extra teeth. The White Lions also get magic attacks (good bye Wraiths).

Noble (85)
- Battle Standard Bearer (25)
- Helm of Fortune (25)
- Guardian Phoenix (25)
- Great Weapon (8)
- Dragon Armour (6)

Total = 174

Fighter bsb, almost the same exact build. Re-rollable 4+ armor, 5+ ward, Str 6. Usually gets placed within the Phoenix Guard and gives them kills towards combat resolution. Usually kills 2, standard, BSB, two ranks, 1 from PG = 7 combat res.

If you want to take fighter nobles, you absolutely MUST have an Archmage for counter magic. I'd recommend an Archmage and another level 2 Wizard as a scroll caddy/magic missile caster.

Desert Rain
14-04-2009, 09:37
Another good one is

Noble (118 pts)
- Great Weapon
- Armour of Caleor

About as cheap as you can get away with, 2+ armour save, imune to flaming attacks and 3 ASF S6 attacks.

TekDragon
15-04-2009, 22:51
Mount the nobles or not?

LKHERO
15-04-2009, 23:04
Nobles should always be mounted in full Dragon Prince gear with a Halbred if staying in your unit.

The footslogging 2+ AS w/ GW is a great cheap Noble if you just need something to add to the combat res. But for ~20 points more Korhil is just soooo much better.

enyoss
16-04-2009, 10:33
For a combat Lord I usually take:

Prince, Temakador's Gauntlets, White Sword, Talisman of Loec

He's a little vulnerable, but against most enemies the White Sword and Talisman combo give you an excellent chance of getting a Killing Blow. I usually have a level 2 mage lurking nearby to heal the wound inflicted by the Talisman.

Another good build is:

BSB Noble, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, in a unit of White Lions with the Gem of Courage.

The stubborn, re-rollable, best score on 3D6 break test means that these guys are guaranteed to hold any charge you can throw at them (assuming some survive that is!).