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dijit80
06-04-2009, 21:10
Arch Lector
War Alter, Armour of M. iron (1+Sv/); Double Handed weapon, Doomfire Ring (bound spell - burning head)
276

Warrior Priest
Sword of might (+1S), Ring of Volans, Hvy arm and shd, barded warhorse
144

Warrior Priest
Sword of power (+2S) - 40, Hvy arm and shd, barded warhorse
150

Wizard lvl2
Dispelx2, barded warhorse
164

25 Flagellants w. champ
260

25 Flagellants w. champ
260

25 Flagellants w. champ
260

10 crossbows
80

10 crossbows
80

8 pistoliers w. musician
151

8 pistoliers w. musician
151

The idea is that the flagellants form the anvil - deployed in oblique, being unbreakable and can hit pretty ok. the pistoliers work the flanks to deny ranks. Magic is 4PD + 6/7 bound spells and 7DD + 2 scrolls so pretty decent too. I've never played flagellants before nor seen them in action though so any comments appreciated.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 21:31
Since the arch lector is mounted the double handweapons does nothing for him (until the war alter is destroyed).


Personally I don't think it would do that well. When the flagellants get the charge they hit like a ton of bricks, but when they get charged they get slaughtered. The real problem here is that you don't have them many throw away units to give you the charge. You could do it with the pistoliers, but (especially since that's where the priests will have to join) that's a lot of points to put into a bait.

I would look up the lists/battle reports of superduperkoopatroopa.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171647&highlight=flagellants

bob_the_small
06-04-2009, 22:09
Aren't flagellants rare?

Malorian
06-04-2009, 22:15
Taking priests allows you to make 1 core.

Makarion
07-04-2009, 04:37
Also, why do so many people give the Armour of Meteoric Iron to a war alter-mounted Arch Lector? The chariot improves his save by 2 points, so heavy armour and an enchanted shield works just as well, for 10 points less. That saves the armour for a warrior priest with great weapon leading a unit of infantry.

Alternatively, give him the Dawn Armour.

Time of Madness
07-04-2009, 04:44
Flagellants work best in units of 14 or 21....I like 14 with a prophet. This allows you to place them 7 wide maximizing their attacks.

Why units of 8 pistoliers? Make them 3 units of 5 with a musician.

The wizard would be better off with the rod of power.

Archelector needs some major equipment work as has been mentioned. Van horstmen is good on him.
Time of Madness

dijit80
07-04-2009, 07:33
Thanks for the help. As said i've never played Empire before, so this is pretty new. I'll go and work on it a little more, though any further suggestions would be appreciated.

nasty_little_hobbit
07-04-2009, 13:09
I would drop both units of pistoliers down to 5 and with the spare points get a unit of vannilla knights for baiting.
Also Id think about dropping the flaggelants down to 20 each and with those spare points get another unit of Full command knights for one of your priest to join.

Keller
07-04-2009, 13:13
Also, why do so many people give the Armour of Meteoric Iron to a war alter-mounted Arch Lector? The chariot improves his save by 2 points, so heavy armour and an enchanted shield works just as well, for 10 points less. That saves the armour for a warrior priest with great weapon leading a unit of infantry.

Alternatively, give him the Dawn Armour.
I agree. The Armor Of Metoric Iron is rather wasted on the WA Priest. The Dawn Armor is a sound investment for a 1+ rerollable save w/ shield, or a 2+ w/o shield.



Since the arch lector is mounted the double handweapons does nothing for him (until the war alter is destroyed).
I believe he means Double Handed weapon, or a Great Weapon as its more commonly known.


I assume you plan on joining the priests to the Pistoliers; they can't join the Flagalents. One important thing to remember about the Priests then; their barded horses will slow the pistoliers down 2". He can ride with the Fast Cav, but won't gain their shooting rules, which of course isn't a problem for the priest!

There are some downsides to having the Priest with the Pistoliers, though. Hatred can be dangerous on such a light unit, easily worked to force your over-run / pursue leaving you a ready target. On the other hand, rerolling pistol attacks can be very helpful. Something to consider. Personally, I would probably not have Priests in my Pistolier units.


I would try to scrape some points together to add in some Militia Free Companies. At 5 points/model, you can get nice 12 man units for a mere 60 points. They've 2 attacks each, and could help your force out quite a bit. They'd also serve as good place to put your priests to keep them safe.

Makarion
07-04-2009, 18:23
Independant units of free company, and especially small ones, are panic generators. In my opinion (for what that is worth) they are the worst unit to pick for block infantry. Plenty of people will choose halbardiers for that dubious honour, though.

I would suggest to try a unit of 18 spears or so if you must have multiple attacks and want a cheap unit. Personally, I don't field blocks of infantry smaller than 25 (note, that I generally don't use greatswords - they should be fine in smaller units).

Keller
07-04-2009, 19:00
Independant units of free company, and especially small ones, are panic generators. In my opinion (for what that is worth) they are the worst unit to pick for block infantry. Plenty of people will choose halbardiers for that dubious honour, though.
I agree, to a point.
They are the worst infantry because they can't have detachments. Otherwise they are no worse off than most of the state-troops, since they have the same stats (just no armor.)

As for the panic issue, I don't think it would be a problem in this build. The bulk of his line will be ItP, being Crazed an all. The only units to worry about would be Pistoliers, which shouldn't be close enough to worry about Panic, and the Crossbowmen. The panic issue could be controlled with propper spacing and deployment, though. And if you place the Priests in these Free Coms units, you now have Ld 8 to help keep things in check.

I normally advocate units of 25 infantry myself, but I think some small offensive-based units could be of great help to hit units tied up by the Flagelants. Halberdiers or Free Coms would work, but I personally tend to favor the Militia for their cheaper cost and second attack.

Makarion
07-04-2009, 19:13
Imagine a random enemy unit with character hitting the block of free company. That means something like 7 attacks at WS 4 and S4, and 3 attacks at WS5+ and S6. Good luck with that Ld 8 - your front rank just left for the infirmary.

dijit80
07-04-2009, 20:06
I had considered the WP in the Flagellants - there's no reason for them not to go in them (you're still allowed to join infantry units if you're mounted).
I'm working towards to having units of 21 flags, deployed 7 wide with a Prophet.

Keller
08-04-2009, 02:02
Imagine a random enemy unit with character hitting the block of free company. That means something like 7 attacks at WS 4 and S4, and 3 attacks at WS5+ and S6. Good luck with that Ld 8 - your front rank just left for the infirmary.

The same could be said for any unit in the Empire army. Swordsmen have a mediocre shot at best at surviving that, with Greatswords a bit better. Anything else will yield the same result as your Militia account. I fail to see your reasoning that Free Coms are much worse off.

And again, given the theme of the army, they are more fitting, cheaper and easier to fit in than state-troops.


I had considered the WP in the Flagellants - there's no reason for them not to go in them (you're still allowed to join infantry units if you're mounted).
I'm working towards to having units of 21 flags, deployed 7 wide with a Prophet.
You may indeed join infantry while mounted, and in 7th Ed you can't be singled out by shooting as you could in 6th for being on a larger base than the unit.

However, no models in the Empire army can join Flagelants. I'm not sure if the Flagelant description specifically states they may never be joined by characters, but there is a general rule which prevents it. Units which are Unbreakable can only be joined by characters that are Unbreakable, none of which the Empire characters are. The Priest can become temporarily Unbreakable via a prayer, but I believe it was FAQ'd to state this was only temporary and he may not join the Flagalents. If he were to lose Unbreakable (as in it was dispelled or he cast another prayer) you'd have an illegal unit.

Makarion
08-04-2009, 04:47
The same could be said for any unit in the Empire army. Swordsmen have a mediocre shot at best at surviving that, with Greatswords a bit better. Anything else will yield the same result as your Militia account. I fail to see your reasoning that Free Coms are much worse off.

And again, given the theme of the army, they are more fitting, cheaper and easier to fit in than state-troops.


You may indeed join infantry while mounted, and in 7th Ed you can't be singled out by shooting as you could in 6th for being on a larger base than the unit.

However, no models in the Empire army can join Flagelants. I'm not sure if the Flagelant description specifically states they may never be joined by characters, but there is a general rule which prevents it. Units which are Unbreakable can only be joined by characters that are Unbreakable, none of which the Empire characters are. The Priest can become temporarily Unbreakable via a prayer, but I believe it was FAQ'd to state this was only temporary and he may not join the Flagalents. If he were to lose Unbreakable (as in it was dispelled or he cast another prayer) you'd have an illegal unit.

With swordsmen, as you pointed out, you'll have more survivors, as they have a 4+ armour save (before modification) and WS4. Spearmen have the bonus of a second rank to strike back with. Halberds are roughly in the same boat as free company, but at least can take detachments. Against a non-shooty opponent, that means a chance to countrcharge and negate his ranks.

dijit80
08-04-2009, 08:45
However, no models in the Empire army can join Flagelants. I'm not sure if the Flagelant description specifically states they may never be joined by characters, but there is a general rule which prevents it. Units which are Unbreakable can only be joined by characters that are Unbreakable, none of which the Empire characters are. The Priest can become temporarily Unbreakable via a prayer, but I believe it was FAQ'd to state this was only temporary and he may not join the Flagalents. If he were to lose Unbreakable (as in it was dispelled or he cast another prayer) you'd have an illegal unit.
Thanks, I'd overlooked that.

EDIT:
Well I've been working on it a little more. This i think is significantly better than the last, but probably still room for improvement, so fire away:

Archlector
War altar, Dawn Armour (4+sv, reroll saves), Great weapon, Doomfire ring (bound spell)
296

Warrior Priest
Hvy Armour, Shield, Barded Warhorse, Van horstman's Spectulum (switches WS, S, T, I & A in a challenge), Sword of might (+1S)
155

Warrior Priest
Hvy Armour, shield, Barded Warhorse, Sword of power (+2S)
150

Wizard
2x dispel, barded warhorse
164

21 Flagellants w. prophet
220

21 Flagellants w. prophet
220

21 Flagellants w. prophet
220

10 Crossbows w. 5Archers and 5 Free company
145

10 Crossbows w. 5Archers and 5 Free company
145

6 Knights w. full command

Cannon

1993pts

The 4 detachments can be used to redirect charges, etc and are essential throw away units as no one suffers panic from their loss. I've also toyed around with taking 2 units of 28 flags instead, but couldn't seem to make something I felt was good enough.

Bies21
08-04-2009, 13:42
ignore the command on the knights- waste of points and banner give away. Good unit size on the flaggies 7x3 is the way they should be.

A few things.

War Altar only gives you a 6+ save not 5+ (double check but I believe i'm right). You could have a very nasty and tricky combo if you're willing to pay the points 323.

AL-Waltar, Heavy Armour, Shield, VHS, Mace of Helstorm.

This is the combo I've used and to date I've taken out Skulltaker, a Bloodthirster, Keeper of Secrets, Vampire Lord and multiple other heros/champions.

It's a fun combo and very hard.

I'd drop the archers and free coy and get another unit of knights with musician.

123 points are the best points you can spend in the empire army.

dijit80
08-04-2009, 14:40
ignore the command on the knights- waste of points and banner give away. Good unit size on the flaggies 7x3 is the way they should be.


I'd just considered putting one of the WP with this unit, so having a champ seemedfair enough. However Human knights aren't the most dangerous, but with hate I figured they'd do ok on a charge with a WP.


War Altar only gives you a 6+ save not 5+ (double check but I believe i'm right).

The War Altar is a chariot and as such any character gets +2sv pg. 64 BoSP rulebook, so unless there's another rule over riding that he should have a 2+ sv.



You could have a very nasty and tricky combo if you're willing to pay the points 323.

AL-Waltar, Heavy Armour, Shield, VHS, Mace of Helstorm.

This is the combo I've used and to date I've taken out Skulltaker, a Bloodthirster, Keeper of Secrets, Vampire Lord and multiple other heros/champions.

It's a fun combo and very hard.
It sounds a good character killer, but how well does he function against normal troops? I'd also thought of using the first WP in a similiar function.


I'd drop the archers and free coy and get another unit of knights with musician.

123 points are the best points you can spend in the empire army.
I had one list with 2 units of knights worked out I'll work on that a little and see how it looks.

Bies21
08-04-2009, 14:46
Well I used him to take out a whole unit of Grail Knights (2 dead due to impact hits then 2 rounds of challenges before the unit broke and was run down).

Pretty much use him to take out characters. Added to the fact he's almost indestructable (with 2 heal spells a turn, 4+ ward, 6+ to randomize to hit him via shooting, MR2 he's a beast). means he works well to keep an enemy unit in place for flank attacks from other units you have in your army.

I need to check on the chariot because I thought so as well but was told it wasn't (doesn't really bother me eitherway tbh) but I best double check, unfortuantly I'm in Sydney atm and need to wait till I'm back in Hong Kongto check.

Keller
08-04-2009, 16:06
With swordsmen, as you pointed out, you'll have more survivors, as they have a 4+ armour save (before modification) and WS4. Spearmen have the bonus of a second rank to strike back with. Halberds are roughly in the same boat as free company, but at least can take detachments. Against a non-shooty opponent, that means a chance to countrcharge and negate his ranks.
Ah, we are in agreence on this. However, I was concerned with small units of ~12 to act as hammers for units that his Flagelants have tied up. A small unit running in with 12 attacks would be more effective than swordmen or spearmen who need to be static. In larger blocks, these two are definately much better.

Also, given that he wants a Flagalent army, I don't really see State-troops w/ specialized tactics like detachments fitting in very well.



ignore the command on the knights- waste of points and banner give away. Good unit size on the flaggies 7x3 is the way they should be.

AL-Waltar, Heavy Armour, Shield, VHS, Mace of Helstorm.
I agree with Bies, drop the Standard at the very least. Musicians can be use useful, and I rarely find champions to be a poor purchase, but standards are just free points for your enemy on small units.

I don't really think the Mace of Helstrom and the VHS is a good combo. The point of the VHS is to use your opponents stat advantage against him, yet with the Mace you forfeit all of your attacks for 1 set-S attack. I suppose the VHS provides a good defense, in that you are less likely to be hurt back if you miss, but it seems counter-productive to forfeit the offensive stats you steal. I would take one or the other.