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PARTYCHICORITA
08-04-2009, 00:05
Well that; i'm considering starting TK and in the mean time figuring strategies to fight different armies. I think they can give a decent battle vs most books but i just can't figure out what to do vs VC:

-They usually have more magic than me
-Most casualties they get come back faster than my own (since IoN is better and much easier to cast than summoning incantation)
-BSB with regeneration banner makes some units almost imposible to poof.
-A lot of T4+ makes many of my units less effectives
-Cheaper and better troops (like GG and ghouls) that increase in unit size and usually outnumber me greatly
-TK are not that great at character killing so taking out vampires ain't easy.

So any advice and ideas would be more than welcome.

Witchblade
08-04-2009, 00:41
VC > TK. Simple as that, I'm afraid.

You can shoot and outmaneuver them.

havoc626
08-04-2009, 00:59
Well, for one, what points do you play, as TK can have a few different builds at over 2000pts.

I say the best thing to do is try and take as many Chariots as you can, and have your LP behind them on horseback. As VC have almost no ranged attacks, and the only ones them having being spells, the LPs will be safe so long as the Chariots are there. One of the only reason the LP are there are to more or less guarentee a charge against most of the VC units.

Taking a TK on chariot with Collar of Shapesh, Chariot of Fire and Flail of Skulls gives an extremely dealy CC force, even more so when he's in a squad of chariots to support him. This beast should be able to take out a VC with ease should it get the charge. The Chariot of Fire is great for several reasons. One, magical attacks for those etheral creatures, if the VC player takes any. Two, extra impact hits. Three, Flaming attacks to ignore any Regen. the target might have. The Flail of Skulls is exellent as only a Lord choice has any chance of surviving attacks from it. Mind you, you could also go with some of the other Magic Weapons, depending on what the enemy tends to focus on or what you want your TK to do. Blade of Setep is great if the VC makes use of magic armour, while Crook and Flail are good if you dont think you'll get that charge. Alternatively, if you are running a squad of TG, you can put the TK on foot with the Destroyer of Eternities and Collar of Shapesh and then use spells to get as many of those special attacks off as you can.

Carrion are one of the best choices in the game for soft target hunting, so if your opponent hides his spell casters behind squads, or even in cheap bunkers, these are a great option, as are Tomb Scorpions, which are very nasty when they come up at the right time and in the right place.

SSC loses a lot of its use against VC, in fact, any army that is ItP, as its special ability is useless. Mind you, if your opponent takes Vargulfs/Regen Banner, this can be a nasy surprise for any of these types of squads.

All up, while TK are very weak in comparison to VC, they arent useless. Good luck with it all.

TheKingInYellow
08-04-2009, 01:18
Beat the guy up in the parking lot before he can unpack his army?

Bac5665
08-04-2009, 01:51
TK just don't have a reasonable shot against VC, all things equal. If you are much better player than the VC, than it's possible to do ok, but if the VC player has any idea of what they're doing, TK will have a real rough time.

stonetroll
08-04-2009, 02:15
Beat the guy up in the parking lot before he can unpack his army?

This, or tell him to keep the PD to a reasonable amount (no more then 10)

Dexter099
08-04-2009, 02:29
TK are one of the few armies that can beat up Vampire Counts easily if played correctly. Just read Malorian's VC battle reports, and find the reports with the tomb kings.

all_seeing_eye
08-04-2009, 02:58
TK are one of the few armies that can beat up Vampire Counts easily if played correctly. Just read Malorian's VC battle reports, and find the reports with the tomb kings.

Thanks.

But i find that with Tomb kings you need to get and keep a strong grip in the magic phase. To do this you need to start to remove your opponents characters from the game (Using Tomb Scorpions to take out hero vamps. usually works fairly well), becuase as well all know Tomb Kings cannot win in a magic contest on a one on one contest. Once thats done you can start to moderate the magic phase. If the chance persents itself though, try and kill the general as his/her death will make the game alot easier. To deal with thier infantry i find that ranking them with a large unit of skeletons (24ish), and then flanking them chariots will due the job eventually. Also etheral units are a headache for Tomb Kings, if you find a reliable solution to deal with them let me know.

stonetroll
08-04-2009, 03:45
Also etheral units are a headache for Tomb Kings, if you find a reliable solution to deal with them let me know.

Tomb Guard?

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 04:27
You're not cool unless you have a unit of 20 Ushabti.

Jericho
08-04-2009, 05:39
Ethereals you say? Tomb Guard, SCC volleys, Chariot of Fire and magic missile spells/bound items come to mind. Staff of Ravening causing 3d6 S2 hits on Wraiths can be fun, should kill a couple but lots of potential to wipe a unit with some luck. Wraiths can be annoying if they get into scenery of course, since it makes many of these solutions tougher to implement.

Anyway I like the lists all_seeing_eye has been using against Malorian's Vamps. They're pretty close to what I'd be taking if I ever got off my ass and painted my Khemri.

eyeolas
08-04-2009, 15:24
The casket. Its your one and only hope of killing things with any impact. Aside from that I'm going to say lots of strong combat units. Ushabti, TG, scorps and chariots, and lots of them. that way you might have a chance of getting his units down and getting to the characters inside them (that or take a load of scorps and hope to get a couple into his vampires with killing blow, you never know, it could work...)

Malorian
08-04-2009, 15:27
Something that will be of great interest to you TK players (all_seeing_eye especially) is the rules thread on if the corpse cart works on incantations.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192218

I always thought they couldn't, but apparently they do...


(Sorry for th semi thread jack, but I feel this is important to this thread as it really effects the magic battle between the two.)

Nerhesi
08-04-2009, 16:31
TK are one of the few armies that can beat up Vampire Counts easily if played correctly. Just read Malorian's VC battle reports, and find the reports with the tomb kings.

You sir, are smoking something mighty interesting.

Mighty.

Red_Duke
08-04-2009, 16:32
Depends on what the VC player does to a degree... If he bunkers completely in the corner leaving no space to the edge of the board you're in trouble. If theres some space, burrowing some scorps or a swarm to pop up behind the general's unit can work, you then have the king's chariot unit (the spec noted above is about as good as it gets imo) hit the flank of the almost inevitable bunker, cream that, then get into the General's unit. You can potentially pop the whole damn thing in 1 turn then, and even if you dont, if you can get a unit in the rear then its no ressing for him, as theres no-where to raise to.

TK can generally expect to get the 1 spell off in the game, which has to be saved for the flank charge with the chariots.

Interestingly enough a number of units that normally suck (i.e. ushabti and the bone giant) can actually be pretty good vs VC - especially the giant if you roll well!

Red_Duke
08-04-2009, 16:35
Oh, and as for the horrible Regenning TG bunker, the best idea is to just avoid it. If the Vamp lord is in there, you can hit it in the front with the chariot unit, and get the King with flail into the lord, and see how he likes 2 wounds per hit ;) Still not by any means guaranteed with the blasted regen, but then if you have 2 SSC's you can always just keep hammeriing that kind of unit with flaming catapults of death.

Oh, and etherals? king again kicks their ass. Flail of skulls means you can wail all over them. Given how much they cost, you can then also just pull back and avoid the rest of the army - its not like you were in for a fun engaging game vs a vamp bunker anyway...

Kamenwati
08-04-2009, 19:18
Khalida isn't a poor choice either with her unstoppable spell and that lovely staff that can stop units in their tracks. Yeah, I know venturing into Special Character country with this one but lets be honest, it's not like TK characters are that over the top.

A large unit of swarms works for tying down a unit you don't want going anywhere anytime soon.

Tomb Scorpions are character assassins, pure and simple.

Catapults are nice for regen units but the Casket is just pure gold against VC. One of the few armies that can't warmachine it into oblivion. And it will make magic spamming just a little harder for your enemy.

Red_Duke
08-04-2009, 19:37
however, VC do have bats, which will deal with a casket in reasonably short order. Plus the general still has good leadership, and more importantly everything can be healed back, so trying to sit back and deal with Vamps, other than hoping for a lucky failed Look out Sir on the general isnt going to get you that far imo...

However, going all in vs Vamps is undoubtably risky, although at least youre then taking the fight to them

selone
08-04-2009, 20:38
Casket of souls :D

Makarion
08-04-2009, 20:48
Casket of souls :D

Your average VC army has the DD to make short work of the Casket's invocation. It's very expensive, too (much as I am a fan of it). It pains me, but your best hope is probably a Khalida gunline with a catapult and hoping to slow the game down to a draw.

Dexter099
09-04-2009, 06:15
Or you could just play it the way All Seeing Eye does.

tanka
09-04-2009, 14:11
I've got to say I don't agree with many people's views on here. I'm on both sides of the fence as I play vampires and tomb kings occassionaly.

I think that TKs have a very good shout at beating vampires, depending on points played/army style.

I personally take the flying king, and find that he can deal with wraiths, corpsecarts, varghulfs and (depending on banner) bloodknights quite well.
Combining him with 2 chariot units and 2 scorpians means that I can very often win the flanks, pretty much meaning the game is fought on my terms.

I take the 2 blocks of TG also, meaning that when the main combat blocks do hit, they can handle them for a few rounds, until hopefully the flanking units come to help.

That's where the game's won or lost against vampires IMO, as long as the support and hammer units are taken care of, then breaking down the blocks becomes a matter of timing and pressure.

The only army I dislike playing at the club or tournaments is the well played tomb kings army, as they've got an answer to most things the vampires can do.