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Hena
13-04-2009, 18:01
We on the Epic side of the boards were having a discussion about Why play Epic when there is Apocalypse (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3467026).

Being a curious like a cat, I started to wonder this about the other way. This of course doesn't make a sense to be posted on Epic side, so here we go.

stroller
13-04-2009, 18:05
The simplest reasons are often best. I have lots of 40K models. I have half a box of assorted epic bits I picked up at a jumble sale. Bought it very cheap to try. It didn't grab me.

Ubermensch Commander
13-04-2009, 18:06
So you can use ALL of your massive collection of 40K miniatures
So you can use old nostalgia things such as vortex grenades (and then laugh joyously as that stupid res orb bastard is sucked into oblivion...end of. Course, its his turn to laugh when it sweeps back through YOUR lines! hahha)
So you can experience an Epic battle from a different perspective.

I feel its the last one that makes both viable. Both let you play huge, epic battles between powerful forces, bringing out the big guns as it were. But Epic lets you get the Grand Strategy perspective where even Titans are small cogs in a big machine, and Apocalypse lets you see if from the Front Lines view where, sure, that Titan is a small cog in a big machine...but it sure seems huge when you are staring down its barrels!

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-04-2009, 18:08
Epic tiny. Apocalypse huge!

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 18:09
What stroller said. I have a lot of 40K minis, so there's minimal financial investment to play Apocalypse, and what investment there is will support my 40K addiction.

That, and Epic minis are tiny and hard to paint. I used to play, but it fell by the wayside at my local LGSes. So that's another very important consideration: finding players.

Meri

The pestilent 1
13-04-2009, 18:10
Why play warhammer when you can join the army?


Similar idea really.

Hicks
13-04-2009, 18:16
I have the models to play Apoc, but these same models can be used to play 40K too. That means one less system to learn and no specific minis to buy.

Also, I personally don't like Epic models except the Titans.

Acolyte
13-04-2009, 18:22
Because nobody plays Epic.

Capt_Jman
13-04-2009, 18:25
Because nobody plays Epic.

Someone probley does. :)

Also it costs a lots more to buy 100 guys in apoc then in epic.

Sttucker13
13-04-2009, 18:34
Also it costs a lots more to buy 100 guys in apoc then in epic.

I doubt many people get into 40k specifically to play Apoc. It tends to be the people who, out of insanity or sheer tenacity, ALREADY have more units than they could ever hope to field in a standard 40k game. Thus Apoc gives them a chance to field all their pretty units, not to mention spur them on to further madness.

Meriwether
13-04-2009, 18:35
Also it costs a lots more to buy 100 guys in apoc then in epic.

Unless you already own them. :D

Meri

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 18:43
Please drop by the thread Hena linked, read what's been discussed there, and leave your comments.

Cheers.

Takitron
13-04-2009, 19:21
Please drop by the thread Hena linked, read what's been discussed there, and leave your comments.

Cheers.



I read that thread when it went up because I am interested in epic, but the amount of vitriol and condesention to regular 40k turned me off. The bat reps on Bell Of Lost Souls do a great job of enticing people, but it's online fanbase does a better job putting people off. Maybe a little more respect for what other people play would make your message easier to take.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 19:34
the amount of vitriol and condesention to regular 40k turned me off.

I play 40k (check my .sig for my Elysian Drop Troops log), it's a fun (if simple) game.


But Apocalypse?

Too unbalanced, too tactically simple, takes too long to play, and looks too silly*. :angel:


*Instead of armies starting a quater mile apart and manuevering around each other, you start 10 feet apart in serried ranks... even Titans can sneak up to within 10 feet of each other before the game starts in Apocalypse.

Darnok
13-04-2009, 19:36
First: I never played either Epic or Apoc, so I won't comment on that. Now for the important things.

I look forward to actually playing Apoc with a good friend because I like 40K. I like models with details I can actually make out, I like my painted models on a larger scale game board, I like big crazy war machines. And I like the cinematic feel of it all. I don't see it as an excercise in strategy or tactics - I'd just play Go for that. I want a nice big battlefield and lots of models to play with.

That said, I own a good lot of Epic stuff. Namely three playable armies to be precise. But I hate painting them. It is just not fun for me. And after all this is my spare time I spent, I don't want to hate every moment of it. I may find a way to get pleasure out of painting Epic models one day. But until then my models will gather dust.

So in the end it is really about playing the game I like most on a bigger scale, because I do like the way there. Right now I invest time in making more scenery and painting more for my main army, and I have fun doing it.

eek107
13-04-2009, 19:43
Before I begin, I must point out that I play and enjoy both equally.

1. Epic is an entirely new set of rules to be learned, radically different from 40k. Apocalypse is merely an add-on to the existing 40k system, so knowing 40k means you can jump right in.
2. Most 40k players will not have Epic minis, but many have 3000pts and above of their 40k armies. Those who don't can ally with others.
3. 40k miniatures look better.
4. Apocalypse allows individual units and heroes to have more influence and opportunities for memorable gaming moments.
5. Not every game has to be a thorough exercise in strategy and tactics.


I read that thread when it went up because I am interested in epic, but the amount of vitriol and condesention to regular 40k turned me off. The bat reps on Bell Of Lost Souls do a great job of enticing people, but it's online fanbase does a better job putting people off. Maybe a little more respect for what other people play would make your message easier to take.

Indeed. I don't think "children" would have the patience to organise and play a proper game of Apocalypse (not like those "free-for-alls" commonly held in GW stores), not to mention build and paint an army of that size, with or without superheavies.

Malakai
13-04-2009, 19:53
Heh, what madness did I start? :angel:

RichBlake
13-04-2009, 19:53
Epic is a lot larger scale then Apocalypse too.

If I played an epic game with a scout titan, 150 Guardsmen 9 Leman Russes and a Baneblade I'm under the impression that would be quite a small game. That's a massive Apocalypse army though.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 20:04
Epic is a lot larger scale then Apocalypse too.

If I played an epic game with a scout titan, 150 Guardsmen 9 Leman Russes and a Baneblade I'm under the impression that would be quite a small game. That's a massive Apocalypse army though.

That game would be about 1600 points, or just over half the size of a standard game of Epic.


Scout Titan - 1 Warhound Titan - 250 Points
Infantry Company - 64 Guardsmen, 1 Officer - 250 Points
Infantry Company - 64 Guardsmen, 1 Officer - 250 Points
Tank Company - 9 Leman Russ & 1 Leman Russ Vanquisher - 650 Points
Super Heavy Tank Platoon - 1 Baneblade - 200 Points

Total: 1600 Points.


A standard 'tournament' sized game is 3000 points (Equivilent to a 1500pt game of Warhammer 40k in terms of the time it takes to play).

So yeah, the army you listed would be the equivilent of playing a game of 40k with 800 points.

reds8n
13-04-2009, 20:07
Too unbalanced, too tactically simple, takes too long to play, and looks too silly*.


*Instead of armies starting a quater mile apart and manuevering around each other, you start 10 feet apart in serried ranks... even Titans can sneak up to within 10 feet of each other before the game starts in Apocalypse.

Apoc. can be like this sure, or it can be played in a myriad of other ways. I guess it perhaps takes a more mature and smarter gamer to get the most out of it. It just requires the players to know what they're doing a bit more. The wierd thing about apoc is it does seem to be used a lot in stores and with the swathes of younger players which is pretty much the anithesis of what it should be used for.

Good old GW eh ? :p

Plus I think the models look better, far too much of the Epic line is awful-- admitedily I think a lot of that is the models ages which is clearly not the fault of the players-- and I think the battles I've seen and played in ( of which it's obly a couple) look no more or less daft than 40k either.

I loathe the crappy little blast marker bits etc everywhere, bings back horrific memories of 2nd edition games.;) .

That said.... we've had a couple of games just using epic titans and vehicles but using the 40k/apoc rules, and that's worked out really quite well.

shin'keiro
13-04-2009, 20:19
lol - does anyone even play Apocalypse anymore?

Forlorn
13-04-2009, 20:23
Epic is un-good. And a totally different game system. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I like oranges.

Fire Harte
13-04-2009, 20:34
I have the models and people play 40k, playing epic requires more money that could be spent on 40k.

The Orange
13-04-2009, 20:41
Epic is un-good. And a totally different game system. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I like oranges.

QFT Oranges are awesome. :p

Okay seriously though both aren't interchangeable. Why play Epic? because you want to play epic. Why play Apocalypse? because you want to play Apocalypse. Why play BFG? because you want to play BFG. etc. Apocalypse and Epic are two very different games, just because you can see superheavies and titans in both doesn't mean there comparable.

Hena
13-04-2009, 20:42
I find it interesting that people comment having to learn a new system. Is that a bad thing? I've bought a rulebook just to learn a new system. Also I've downloaded free games just to read them. I think it's good to know more than one system.

Money is understandable. If you already have figs and want to use them, sure you cannot swap a scale. However in this case Epic and other 6mm games are in good situation (in a way). As it tends to be cheaper to get a new army. For example in Epic you can get a good 2000 point list in about 100 pounds. Or go cheap (and not that good) to 3000 points at a bit more than that.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 20:43
Epic is un-good. And a totally different game system. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I like oranges.


Apocalypse and Epic are two very different games, just because you can see superheavies and titans in both doesn't mean there comparable.

Why not compare them?

They're both tabletop wargames depicting large battles in the Warhammer 40,000 setting.


playing epic requires more money that could be spent on 40k.

Ten Tactical Space Marines (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400009&prodId=prod1060074): 17.60
Points cost: 170pts (11% of a standard sized 1500pt army)

One hundred and sixty Tactical, Devestator & Assault Space Marines (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1290361&prodId=prod1110003): 11.75
Points cost: 1450pts* (48% of a standard sized 3000pt army)


40k is expensive. :angel:




* Two Assault formations, two Devestator formations, two Tactical formations... there are 20 spare Marines left over.

Hena
13-04-2009, 20:45
QFT Oranges are awesome. :p

Okay seriously though both aren't interchangeable. Why play Epic? because you want to play epic. Why play Apocalypse? because you want to play Apocalypse. Why play BFG? because you want to play BFG. etc. Apocalypse and Epic are two very different games, just because you can see superheavies and titans in both doesn't mean there comparable.
Surely you have reasons why this specific system. It's not apples and oranges kind of thing. I play Epic because it's a good rule system and makes games where I have to think. Knowing more than one system allows looking at the game you play more critically.

Malakai
13-04-2009, 20:51
Don't let anyone fool ya. With the new price rise in metal Epic is an expensive game to get into. Sure infantry is plastic, but to play Epic you need tanks and planes and titans. Those are all metal.

As for having to learn a new system, well I'm willing to bet that more than half of the 40K players here also play fantasy. So that argument really doesn't hold water.

For me I think it's really all about the scale of Epic. If you buy into the scale and 6mm does it for you (more tanks, more planes, larger cities etc) then you "get it". If that doesn't appeal to you then you don't. I believe it's probably that simple.

darker4308
13-04-2009, 20:54
I would love to play epic, but what it comes down to is players. The only way you can get a game going is if you live in a very large place like major city, or get your specific group into the game. I've always liked the aspect of 40k and warhammer that there are enough general players in my area (Buffalo) such that I can go to a store on a given night without knowning anyone and at least once a week and get a game going. It is that critical mass of people to me ... even if some of them change from night to night that keeps me actually interested. If there was another game I could find like this where there were actual players comming to a room on a night to get pick up games I would play it but presently warhammer .... and probably chess are my only options.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 20:56
Don't let anyone fool ya. With the new price rise in metal Epic is an expensive game to get into. Sure infantry is plastic, but to play Epic you need tanks and planes and titans. Those are all metal.

Even if you go for lots of expensive stuff, you're going to be spending one third to one half the ammount on a full sized Epic army that you would spend on a full sized 40k army.

Plus you can avoid a lot of the expensive metal by buying from Forgeworld, who often sell Epic models cheaper than GW.



For me I think it's really all about the scale of Epic. If you buy into the scale and 6mm does it for you (more tanks, more planes, larger cities etc) then you "get it". If that doesn't appeal to you then you don't. I believe it's probably that simple.

I'd tend to agree, with the caveat that I wouldn't play Epic in particular if the rules weren't as good as they are (I'd find some other 6mm scale game).

I play 40k for the awesome models.
I play Epic for the scale, the rule set, and the awesome Titan models. :)

Ozendorph
13-04-2009, 21:00
I like the scale of 40k/Apoc better. It's more fun painting, converting, and scratch-building 40k-scale models. And it's nice to be able to send your 40k force into a larger mash-up with titans and other massive warmachines. There's something beautiful about seeing your friend's hated and feared uber-HQ that has thwarted you dozens of times disappear under a 10" template, along with his tough-as-nails bodyguards and a nearby battle tank.

I've got nothing against epic - I've played it a couple times and have a decent collection of epic minis - but my friends and I will always prefer 40k/Apoc.


lol - does anyone even play Apocalypse anymore?

Yep, it's super great.

Malakai
13-04-2009, 21:01
I would love to play epic, but what it comes down to is players. The only way you can get a game going is if you live in a very large place like major city, or get your specific group into the game.

You bring up a good point. If anyone wants to play Epic usually they are going to have to purchase and paint up two armies so that they can turn new players onto the game, oh yeah while learning the game for themselves.

I've had this problem too with my recent foray into the E:A system.

ZomboCom
13-04-2009, 21:04
Malakai: With judicious ebaying it's quite possible to pick up whole epic armies rather cheaply actually.

Malakai
13-04-2009, 21:06
Plus you can avoid a lot of the expensive metal by buying from Forgeworld, who often sell Epic models cheaper than GW.

I don't like to say how much money I spend on my hobby, but I just finished buying two armies for Epic (Eldar and Marines). I bought through GW and FW (whenever possible).

I spent over $400usd in GW stuff and closer to $500 on FW stuff. Admittedly I bought a couple of buildings from FW, but I also had some stuff previously (like infantry.)

Epic is expensive.

Evilhomer
13-04-2009, 21:07
Why not compare them?

They're both tabletop wargames depicting large battles in the Warhammer 40,000 setting.



Ten Tactical Space Marines (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400009&prodId=prod1060074): 17.60
Points cost: 170pts (11% of a standard sized 1500pt army)

One hundred and sixty Tactical, Devestator & Assault Space Marines (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1290361&prodId=prod1110003): 11.75
Points cost: 1450pts* (48% of a standard sized 3000pt army)


40k is expensive. :angel:




* Two Assault formations, two Devestator formations, two Tactical formations... there are 20 spare Marines left over.

I think this pretty much sums up my arguement regarding price - although I would also add that most people have actually spent more on 40k since apocalypse (I'm looking at you baneblade/stompa/shadowsword/leman russ company).

Speaking of which, I wonder if it would be possible to get a reasonable epic tourny army for the price of a 40k baneblade :angel:

I would maybe agree with the arguement that 40k models are generally better looking (but then again, if 40k had the same amount of support epic has had...). But at the same time, epic has supplied the most iconic models in the 40k universe (reaver and mk1 warlord), and ironically, the epic scale reaver is probably one of the oldest models still in production (1989?). Even slotta bases have been updated since then :D

Painting epic models is actually far, far, far easier than 40k models. I can see where the myth comes from, but drybrusing goes a long way for epic 40k infantry.....

Malakai
13-04-2009, 21:07
Malakai: With judicious ebaying it's quite possible to pick up whole epic armies rather cheaply actually.

Yeah I've gone that route. Ebay is infested with counterfeit recast models. Unless it's plastic or something I really, really want, no thanks.

zendral
13-04-2009, 21:09
Primary reasons for apoc>epic (in my area):

1.Nobody plays epic.
2.Most do not like the minis, and prefer the 40k scale.

Secondary reasons:
1. Most of us have 3000pt+ armies.
2. Although epic is a nice and faster way to play out the large battles that actually take place in 40k fluff, there is just too little focus on the heroes and smaller battles.
3. Most of us have enough titans and big toys to replicate a standard game of epic anyway.

I have seen a game of epic and a game of apoc side-by-side before using the same units and apoc is just more entertaining despite the length of time it takes (and it just more visually appealing. 3-foot tall titans, hellz ya!).

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 21:29
Speaking of which, I wonder if it would be possible to get a reasonable epic tourny army for the price of a 40k baneblade

Interesting challenge!

How about:

Assault formation (20 Assault Marines)
Assault formation (20 Assault Marines)
in Thunderhawk Gunship

Tactical Formation (30 Tactical Marines)
Tactical Formation (30 Tactical Marines)
Devestator Formation (20 Devestator Marines)
Devestator Formation (20 Devestator Marines)
All in Drop Pods, being launched from a Strike Cruiser.

Terminator Formation (20 Terminators)
Terminator Formation (20 Terminators)

2x Warhound Titans each with Plasma Blastgun & Vulcan Megabolter


Total models:
140 Marines
40 Terminators
2 Warhound Titans
1 Thunderhawk Gunship
1 Strike Cruiser


Purchases:
- 1x Plastic Infantry Set (11.75)
- 1x Thunderhawk Gunship (11.75)
- 1x Terminators blister (11.75)
- 2x Warhound Titans (17.60)
- Strike Cruiser (7.85)

Total cost: 60.70

Add the cost of 4 Drop Pods (Which you could easily scratch build, or buy to add another 15.70, bringing the grand total to 76.40).

I think that army would be very good.

Army tactics would be something like:

- Drop Pod formations drop onto two key objective markers.
- Terminator formations Teleport near important enemy formations and kill them.
- Thunderhawk Gunship picks an important enemy formation and wipes it out with Assault Marines onboard, assault marines then go on to take objectives in subsequent turns.
- Warhound Titans target enemy armour.

You could perhaps drop one Assault Formation to free up points to scatter characters like Librarians and Chaplains and a Chapter Master in there too if you wanted to tune it up more.




Now build a competative tournament-sized (1500pt) 40k Marine army for 76.40. :angel:


A more reasonable figure is 100, which gives you breathing room to flesh out your chosen army.

Durath
13-04-2009, 21:30
Apoc =/= Epic 40k at WH40k scale

Apoc is what 40k should have been from the start imho.

Kirasu
13-04-2009, 21:35
With good friends, smart rules and big armies Apoc is a lot of fun. Epic is unfun cause its tiny models, barely anyone plays and ... its tiny models

Templar Ben
13-04-2009, 21:39
I don't play Epic as I have no one to play it against. I agree that Epic is a better game as it is a wargame and not an exercise in dice rolling and casualty removal.

Epic is for a different audience and asking why they don't play Epic is much like asking English teachers why they didn't go into Finance.

Chaos and Evil
13-04-2009, 21:45
Epic is for a different audience and asking why they don't play Epic is much like asking English teachers why they didn't go into Finance.
Agreed.

Apocalypse is a silly-fun game, while Epic is a simulation-style wargame.

Both use dice. :rolleyes:

Marshal Augustine
13-04-2009, 21:46
It is simple really: Its because we have lots of 40K models, the time and the space to play it!

RampagingRavener
13-04-2009, 21:55
The only Epic models I have ever liked are the Titans, and that is what turns me off Epic entirely. I love fielding lots of Infantry models regardless of what system or army I'm playing, and the Epic infantry models, to me, just look too small and fiddly. They're not visually impressive enough, like the 40k scale models are, to hook my interest in the game. That said I'm sure Epic is a fine game; if someone offered to show me how to play I'd be more than willing to learn. But I'm not going to drop money on a bunch of tiddly little 6mm high Orks.

Tapok
13-04-2009, 21:59
Because the Powers That Be decided to market Apocalypse to a point where it would actually sell, and made it playable with current models.

The Orange
13-04-2009, 22:33
They're both tabletop wargames depicting large battles in the Warhammer 40,000 setting.


And that's their only similarity, they both represent big 40k battles. Apocalypse represents bigger games then 40k right? But doesn't Epic represent even bigger games then Apocalypse? So in the end do they really represent the same thing?

If I have a scooter and I want a bigger vehicle I could get a civic, I could also get a hummer. Both are larger vehicles but are they comparable? I don't think so. Thus I don't really believe Apocalypse = bigger (model) scale Epic. To me Epic is as different from Apocalypse as 40k is to WFB. Why would someone choose Apocalypse over Epic (or vise versa)? Its the same reason someone would play Monopoly over connect 4, because they want to play that specific game.

Helicon_One
13-04-2009, 22:43
With good friends, smart rules and big armies Apoc is a lot of fun. Epic is unfun cause its tiny models, barely anyone plays and ... its tiny models
A gaming ruleset is judged by the size of the models you play it with, this is why Inquisitor is clearly the greatest game ever produced by Games Workshop!

You're right about the fact the barely anyone plays though.

LonelyPath
13-04-2009, 23:01
I play Epic and 40k, though for Epic I tend to play older editions as I do not like the current rehash of the last boxed edition they produced (all the counters, markers, etc. they slowed the game down to much for me).

I play them both for different reasons. Epic for games when I don't have enough time for a big 40k game but still want a big game (or lacking carry space to lug stuff about). Apocalypse when I just want a big game.

MrGiggles
13-04-2009, 23:57
I pretty much do it because I have a 40k collection and not an Epic collection. No other reason.

ZomboCom
14-04-2009, 00:02
I play Epic and 40k, though for Epic I tend to play older editions as I do not like the current rehash of the last boxed edition they produced (all the counters, markers, etc. they slowed the game down to much for me).


There's been another edition since then with far fewer counters and no cards at all...

Bigbot
14-04-2009, 00:12
Because it's the way I like to see 40k played: Epic in scale (not game system! lol) hundreds of tiny stories and battles being played out, awesome humourous moments occuring and a more relaxed way of playing

Angelwing
14-04-2009, 00:13
I play the occasional game of Apoc as I have the models and don't really have to learn any new rule sets.

I don't play epic because my army of choice (tyranids) isn't available except via second hand for high prices, and the big crunch, nobody plays / wants to play epic.
Epic has a bad reputation solely due to the epic 40k version which had bad rules and bad promotion in store. The current version is better, but nobody seems interested, and as it has very little promotion from GW, nobody is going to get interested.

Occulto
14-04-2009, 01:29
Even if you go for lots of expensive stuff, you're going to be spending one third to one half the ammount on a full sized Epic army that you would spend on a full sized 40k army.

Plus you can avoid a lot of the expensive metal by buying from Forgeworld, who often sell Epic models cheaper than GW.

Of course, if you already have the full sized 40K army, then there's little to no additional cost at all to play Apocalypse. ;)

LonelyPath
14-04-2009, 01:42
There's been another edition since then with far fewer counters and no cards at all...

That's good to know, but I pretty much lost interested n Epic when the counter heavy edition came out. Any idea where I can find a copy of this edition of which edition it was?

stompzilla
14-04-2009, 01:51
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290320&categoryId=1100008&aId=4900003&_requestid=1592671

Choose your country and it should take you straight there. Another of the great things about epic is that the rulebook and all the official army lists are freely available for download off the internet and don't cost a penny.

Sister_Sin
14-04-2009, 02:06
I don't care for 6mm models. I like to paint mine and in detail. My eyes aren't what they once were either.

Sister Sin

Ddraiglais
14-04-2009, 07:02
1- 28mm is a lot easier to paint than 6mm. I am not that great at the painting side of things. I don't need an additional handicap in that dept.

2- It's easier to find a game of 40K or Apoc. I don't know anyone who has played Epic since Space Marine/Titanicus.

3- Six reaver titans and 4 warhounds is impressive in Epic. In Apoc, it makes jaws hit the floor. :eek:

4- In addition to painting, it's easier to convert. I doubt anyone would even notice a head or gun swap on Epic infantry. In 28mm, the smallest conversions make a difference.

Number two is probably the biggest thing holding me back from playing Epic, Warmaster, or Bo5A. I love huge epic battles, but there aren't that many people out there playing in such small scales. There are a lot of old timers who have collected massive 40K armies though. Many of them are more than willing to waste an entire afternoon playing a game of Apoc.

One last thing about Apoc. The current Chaos dex doesn't quite do it for me. My army can't really be fielded using it. However, I can use IG artillery alongside my IW in Apoc. I can still field the army I envisioned. There are other cool army concepts you can field with Apoc. I've thought about "Ork" buggies in an IG army to represent jeep like vehicles (there's a conversion using a SM LS that I fell in love with).

The bottom line is Apoc is the perfect game for me. I don't know if I'll ever play regular 40K again, let alone Epic.

Vaktathi
14-04-2009, 07:07
We on the Epic side of the boards were having a discussion about Why play Epic when there is Apocalypse (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3467026).

Being a curious like a cat, I started to wonder this about the other way. This of course doesn't make a sense to be posted on Epic side, so here we go.

With Apoc, I don't have to learn a new ruleset, I don't need to buy, build and paint new models, and I don't need new terrain.

With Epic I would need all these things. That said, I'd love to learn to play epic sometime.

stompzilla
14-04-2009, 08:33
1- 28mm is a lot easier to paint than 6mm. I am not that great at the painting side of things. I don't need an additional handicap in that dept.

Hell no! 6mm is so much easier and quicker. Drybrush for the most part, and so much more forgiving.


2- It's easier to find a game of 40K or Apoc. I don't know anyone who has played Epic since Space Marine/Titanicus.

You know, you'd be surprised. If you put the shout out i'm sure you could find someone fairly local who plays epic or is interested in starting.


3- Six reaver titans and 4 warhounds is impressive in Epic. In Apoc, it makes jaws hit the floor. :eek:

As a visual spectacle i,ll give you that. However what do you do with them then? Also so many titans crammed into such a small space actually looks pretty silly and is counter intuitive. Why would an undamaged enemy titan be inside void shield projection range?


4- In addition to painting, it's easier to convert. I doubt anyone would even notice a head or gun swap on Epic infantry. In 28mm, the smallest conversions make a difference.

This is also inaccurate. It's so easy to convert epic figs it's untrue. + you don't need to rip apart all your old models to stay competetive every time GW has a new model to sell, sorry, releases a new codex. It's nice not having to care particulary what grenades/pistols/wargear each individual model is carrying.

Whatever works for you though fella. I don't think i'll ever play 40K again, in any of it's incarnations. It just doesn't do for me what epic does - an actual tactical challenge.

I do hope that doesn't come across as condescending, it's not meant to be. Everyone gets something different out of their hobby. For some it's the spectacle and individual dramas for others it's a well balanced tactical wargame (Although 2 well painted epic armies facing off across a board that's had some love lavished on it is quite an impressive sight too!). I know which one i prefer but that in no way says it's the best.

The great thing about epic IMO is the ease of the rules (If you know 40K, it'll take you about 15 mins to learn the rules), the free availability of said rules and the relative cheapness of the models. Lol, one of my first ever games of epic was various blu-tac shapes stuck to 2pence pieces, just to see if i liked it.

Born Again
14-04-2009, 10:02
Not going to get too involved as I'm not too experienced with either Epic or Apoc, but I was musing on this the other day and came to the conclusion it's a matter of perspective. Although the size of game is bigger, Apoc. is still basically a squad based game, heroes go around tossing out vortex grenades, repeated poundings from heavy weapon squads have the potential to take out war engines, etc, and unless you have a huuuge board, there's not that much maneuvering involved. Epic, on the other hand, has the scale that allows you to send whole detachments on grand sweeping movements to hit at the flanks, and things in general have the sense of being based around formations rather than the guys on the ground.

At the end of the day, I'd say Apoc. is still about the rank and file's perspective, but in really big battles. Epic is those same battles from the PoV of the Lord Commander watching on a hololith in a command bunker safer behind the main lines.

Chaos and Evil
14-04-2009, 10:11
Whatever works for you though fella. I don't think i'll ever play 40K again, in any of it's incarnations. It just doesn't do for me what epic does - an actual tactical challenge.

I do still play 40k, but only in a 'turn brain off and throw dice' way.

If I want to thoughtlessly relax, I play 40k... if I want to think, I play Epic.

In 40k, tactics are simple and target priority choices obvious... in Epic the opposite is true.

On the other hand, I don't find Apocalypse relaxing. I find it very slow to play, too unbalanced, its turn sequence isn't appropriate to the size of battle being played, and it's too unrepresentative of the Warhammer 40,000 background. Warhammer 40,000 adequately represents a squad-level battle... it does a pretty poor job of representing a company-level battle.


'Born Again' is right about the different perspectives of the two games, with the caveat that Epic is 'Simulation Style' while 40k is 'Fantasy Style'.

borithan
14-04-2009, 11:22
1- 28mm is a lot easier to paint than 6mm. I am not that great at the painting side of things. I don't need an additional handicap in that dept.You don't need to paint the eyes on 6mm figures, its just a way to show how 'ard you are...

Don't understand this. Its way easier to paint smaller models. They don't need anywhere the same detail.



3- Six reaver titans and 4 warhounds is impressive in Epic. In Apoc, it makes jaws hit the floor. :eek:Its far easier to own 6 reavers and 4 warhounds in epic than it is in 40k.



4- In addition to painting, it's easier to convert. I doubt anyone would even notice a head or gun swap on Epic infantry.Why would you even bother? Ok, the larger things, and maybe the vehicles, but why bother converting a 6mm man? They are tiny. You try to cut something off them and you are likely to just ruin the figure.

I would like to play Epic myself, but I don't have the money to buy new stuff (don't have enough 40k stuff to play apocalypse either... but then not terribly interested in doing so, more looking to play smaller games with 40k figures, rather than larger ones), and I don't know anyone who plays it, even if I had the money.

zoggin-eck
14-04-2009, 12:55
I adore both systems, but then again I'm one of those hated people who love Epic 3rd edition "epic 40,000" and won't decide I hate it just because someone said it was no good :)

I think comparing the two, or even the assumption that you can only enjoy one system is like my friends who say every time a new Warhammer fantasy or 40k computer game comes out that people will no longer play the tabletop game. They aren't really the same thing.

People can paint 6mm well, have a look at some of the 'logs here and elsewhere. At a glance, in a well painted Epic force it's obvious what everything is, regardless of how your eyesight is. Sadly, a poorly painted epic army, say, marines just heavily painted red and all the detail filled in, with bases just painted green, will look even worse than the same thing in 28mm scale. Sadly, this is often how Epic is seen, in online battle reports and so on. Even GW's own figures don't compare to many online blogs, early 90's golden daemon entries etc. That, and at some point GW decided to photograph armies of just a few infantry and three tanks and expect that to inspire people, years later showing hundreds of figures in 40k armies!

I agree with the point about GW kind of spoiling the idea of Apoc. by running "free for all" kiddie games in the store, not a good selling point to me.

What I find funny though, is that I've never heard of a Warmaster fan going on about big games of fantasy :) - Go Warmaster though! I love you Rick Priestly! :D

Captain Micha
14-04-2009, 14:00
We on the Epic side of the boards were having a discussion about Why play Epic when there is Apocalypse (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3467026).

Being a curious like a cat, I started to wonder this about the other way. This of course doesn't make a sense to be posted on Epic side, so here we go.

Because 40k minis >> epic minis.

It's also much easier to get into Apoc I think. Just have two 1,500 pt armies..

Combine, write some fluff for the "alliance" go play apoc done.

alansa
14-04-2009, 14:39
I put my thoughts over in the epic thread.

Essentially it's a matter of history that stretches all the way back to the original warhammer fantasty and events subsequent to that.

As I said Warhammer was invented to put lots of models on the table. 40k for sci fi models. Unlike a board game or card game it's about the models first, rules second. It's about the experience. It's almost like roleplay. You would never play these games without models. You would never play these games with abstract tokens: No space marines, no orks. Just coloured tokens with numbers on them. No you'd never do that - rather it's almost like a big roleplay, a battle re-enactment.

Almost all GW games and many many wargames are this, including previous editions of epic.

This is what Games Workshop is all about. And there's nothing at all wrong with this.

However, almost by accident GW have two current games where the rules are sooo good and the game is sooo exciting that you pretty much could play them without the roleplay element. In otherwords, the roleplay, the mini's are a bonus to a game that is already cool without them. These elements don't combine with the rules to make a great game. These games are great without them. Just even more fun with.

These two, IMHO are Blood Bowl and Epic.

Many people who play epic have done so for a long time. They have large epic collections. Perhaps a few would still play it even if we still had the poorer, older rules. This is just they way fate has gone for them. However, fate has granted these players a great ruleset too.

In answer to the original question, I think if epic did not have such an exciting ruleset, then the game would be in a lot of trouble. Why play epic when when it's no different to 40k/apoc these days? The answer is that it is different and gives a different kind of experience.

For these reason old epic players have have stuck with it and newer players, usually via 40k are attracted to it as an additional, complementary way to play in the 40k universe. Some find they like epic so much more that they begin to play this in preference. Some may have posted here in this thread.

If I had the time, I'd like to play ALL GW games. I'm attracted to pretty much all of them. 40k, Warhammer, Epic, Warmaster, BFG, Mordheim, Necromunda, etc

Few of us have the time or money to invest in all of these, so we choose one or two and stick with them. But we would play them all if we could. All have their own reasons for being great games.

Dwarf Supreme
14-04-2009, 17:27
Because nobody plays Epic.

I guess I'm a nobody.

Killgore
14-04-2009, 17:45
I would love to play Epic but i would have to start from scratch and with some of the models available nowadays costing many times more then what they cost in the 'good ol days' which is a huge turn off, plus few players near me own the game.


the appeal of Apocalypse to me is the size of the game and the scale of the models

watching my 100 strong ork green tide covering areas of the table legging it past Stompas and Baneblades to get to my foes Ultramarine company is great!

plus its an excuse to dust off the Phantom :D

Lovejoy
14-04-2009, 18:10
Totally different games - totally different reasons to play them.

I like both, and like the minis for both. I do think Epic: armageddon is an excellent ruleset, but I also have to say 40k is developing into a pretty good game too. Certainly the current version is superior to all that's gone before. Apocalypse though is really just a bit of fun. And lets face it, a lot of use would buy Stompas and Baneblades just to build and paint anyway - Apoc just gives us a chance to game with them too.

Hrw-Amen
14-04-2009, 19:53
I have wondered that myself and have considered EPIC but just did not like the figures. I bought one or two blisters back in the olden days but soon went off the idea. To me EPIC was just like moving counters around, as opposed to the 40K models that you can actualyl see the detail on etc. It just did not fell like a proper wargame, like you may as well have a little counter with IG or Leman Russ, Predator or whatever written on it and move them around instead of the models. I went through a phase when I was around 16 of playing with 1/300th scale tanks etc, but that was pretty much the same. I soon went back to larger scales, simply because the models were more detailed and looked as though you actually had something that physically looked like what it was sopposed to be and was more tactile. Having just said that though I do also collect 1/2400th scale WWII navy vessels?

Johnnyfrej
14-04-2009, 20:53
Why play warhammer when you can join the army?

Why not do both? I was playing Warhammer a year or two before I enlisted.

Personally, my opinion is why not play both? Same thing I tell everyone at the bunker who says "I don't play X because Y is better because of *insert reason*". Currently I have around 10k points of 40k, 5k points of Empire Fantasy, 2k points of Daemons (can be either Fantasy or 40k), 1k points of Gondor LoTR/WoTR, 2k points of Battlefleet Gothic and around 200 points Aeronautica. Basically I can play any system I feel like and gives me flexibility.

The only reason I don't play Epic is because their isn't enough players around for a decent commuity of players. Also I'm too busy trying to fix up my other armies to work on a brand new one.

Takitron
15-04-2009, 03:36
I play 40k (check my .sig for my Elysian Drop Troops log), it's a fun (if simple) game.


But Apocalypse?

Too unbalanced, too tactically simple, takes too long to play, and looks too silly*. :angel:


*Instead of armies starting a quater mile apart and manuevering around each other, you start 10 feet apart in serried ranks... even Titans can sneak up to within 10 feet of each other before the game starts in Apocalypse.


Sorry, I have sigs turned off. I absolutely HATE it when people's sigs are larger than their average post size. (even though I, too, have a sig...)


Im still very interested in epic, but I still have my main stuff to handle first.

chromedog
15-04-2009, 09:00
I play 40k and apoc over epic because I don't like 6mm. I never have. Hell, I used to play Battletech in 1/72.

I'll play 15mm and upwards, but lower and you've got no chance of a game with me.

If 40k was 6mm, I wouldn't play it, either.

BigJon
15-04-2009, 10:54
I played Epic back when it was "Space Marine" and "Adeptus Titanicus" and loved it.
I enjoyed all the different Titan weapon load outs, the chaos Titans, the Eldar Titans
and the mass troops, it was great, then all of a sudden (if years are sudden) they just
sort of went away and when it turned into "Epic" it was some how different. I loved using the detachment cards to build my forces and keep track of everything, i miss the
cards.

Bring it back in that format and I might just start playing it again.

Chaos and Evil
15-04-2009, 11:12
Bring it back in that format and I might just start playing it again.

The current edition's army list construction style bears more in common with the 'Detachment Card' system than it does with the 3rd edition 'Everything in whatever composition you like' system.

So maybe the format you're interested in is already back. :)

taffeh
15-04-2009, 11:17
Why do Model Railway collectors have N guage / OO guage? It's fun having the 2 games, 2 scales... Kudo's to GW / FW for starting the cross over on a larger scale!

Grindgodgrind
15-04-2009, 12:42
I've been playing 40k and Epic since '95. I like both systems. Ner ner.

Chaos and Evil
15-04-2009, 13:18
I've been playing 40k and Epic since '95. I like both systems. Ner ner.

But do you like Apocalypse...

Spider-pope
15-04-2009, 13:37
Personally i'd love to play Epic, the problem is however that i know of only a couple of people in my area that play it, so it would be hard to get a game on a regular basis. So really i dont believe its worth buying a whole new set of models that i will rarely use. Its a shame but there you go.

Apocalypse, since its 40k, its a hell of a lot easier to get a game, so when i buy more 40k stuff to increase my armies ever further, at least i know i will get a game more than once in a blue moon.

Snotteef
15-04-2009, 14:09
I played old epic and the original Epic: Armageddon back when I lived in a community interested in such things, but nobody here even cares about epic, so I unloaded my stuff.

Still, I did hate the mini's 6mm is ugly and no fun to paint. The game system made up for it though.

I HATE apocalypse. That scale does not belong in 40k; it's silly, expensive and unbalanced.

alansa
15-04-2009, 16:20
I must say the "6mm is harder to paint" thing has never applied to me.

Epic tanks and titans are the around the size as you're average 40k models so that's not a problem

Intantry are soo easy. At worst you can imagine them as being a small part of a larger model. You can mange a bit of detail on a bigger figure can't you?

Infact it's easier than that.

For example my ork infantry are green skinned with black 'uniforms'. First I dry brush blue/black mix over black base coat over the entire model. Then dry brush camo green on the head and arms. Job done.

My Genisis chapter marines are base boated black with a red/terracotta mix light brushed over the top. Then with a detail brush I paint tactical and chapter symbols on the shoulder pads. They don't have to be perfect, and they aren't. But at this scale it doesn't matter.

Dwarf Supreme
15-04-2009, 17:01
I must say the "6mm is harder to paint" thing has never applied to me.



Agreed. In fact, for me it's the opposite. 6mm is easy to paint, larger scales harder.

RampagingRavener
15-04-2009, 17:13
Agreed. In fact, for me it's the opposite. 6mm is easy to paint, larger scales harder.

Depends what you mean. 6mm is easier to paint, in that there is both less detail, and a physically smaller area of model that needs to be painted. Meaning you can quite probably paint up several stands of Epic infantry very quickly. However, it's far easier to make a truly stunning 28mm model; I feel a 6mm model is going to be far, far harder to paint to a very good standard.

KRakarth
15-04-2009, 17:29
err has anyone considered playing epic using 40k miniatures????? Its easy enough to base up squads.

Threeshades
15-04-2009, 18:25
err has anyone considered playing epic using 40k miniatures????? Its easy enough to base up squads.

yeah you just have to scale up ranges and moving distances and then go for it.

I've once considered playing 40k with epic minis (slightly modified unit rules of course) to make a travelling verion of 40k

The_Outsider
15-04-2009, 19:46
Why Play apocalypse?

Why go on a hot date when I can have a poster of Angelina Jolie and my right hand?

It just isn't the same.

Grindgodgrind
15-04-2009, 20:03
But do you like Apocalypse...

As long as it's set up well, yes. Also, I like writing scenarios where Apocalypse style rules are necessary.

Lewis
15-04-2009, 20:12
1
4- In addition to painting, it's easier to convert. I doubt anyone would even notice a head or gun swap on Epic infantry. In 28mm, the smallest conversions make a difference.


Actually if I saw someone do a head swap of gun swap on an epic model I'd be incredibly impressed. Next I'd ask them to put horseshoes on my ant.

ZomboCom
16-04-2009, 00:10
Actually if I saw someone do a head swap of gun swap on an epic model I'd be incredibly impressed. Next I'd ask them to put horseshoes on my ant.

My epic dark eldar army includes headswaps, and even scratchbuild tiny spikes added to the side of the heads...

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147149

horizon
16-04-2009, 10:42
Actually if I saw someone do a head swap of gun swap on an epic model I'd be incredibly impressed. Next I'd ask them to put horseshoes on my ant.

There are people who have made primarchs in epic.

galahad67
16-04-2009, 13:58
I have had an epic army but could never find anyone else interested in the game.

Apoc, on the other hand, has no problem in finding opponents.

Enough time to actually finish a large game - yes

opponents - no.

There are enough opponents around that you can pick and choose and thus avoid the annoying win-at-all costs loudmouths simply by filling the teams with people who are enjoyable to be around.

Snotteef
16-04-2009, 14:34
I must say the "6mm is harder to paint" thing has never applied to me.

Epic tanks and titans are the around the size as you're average 40k models so that's not a problem

Intantry are soo easy. At worst you can imagine them as being a small part of a larger model. You can mange a bit of detail on a bigger figure can't you?

Infact it's easier than that.

For example my ork infantry are green skinned with black 'uniforms'. First I dry brush blue/black mix over black base coat over the entire model. Then dry brush camo green on the head and arms. Job done.

My Genisis chapter marines are base boated black with a red/terracotta mix light brushed over the top. Then with a detail brush I paint tactical and chapter symbols on the shoulder pads. They don't have to be perfect, and they aren't. But at this scale it doesn't matter.

They're not HARD to paint, they're NO FUN to paint. When I paint a 28mm fig, I enjoy it (at least the first couple of it's kind... after painting the same guy 10 times, it loses some of its appeal:D) and I look at it with pride. When I paint a 6mm fig, I'm bored and the result is just as boring.

Still, epic is a very fun game. I just played with a great deal of unpainted miniatures!

borithan
16-04-2009, 16:27
Hmm... I find painting a tedious chore, most of the time... not having to sp[end the time over a 6mm guy appeals to me totally.

Now, I do like building models, and you don't get to do that with 6mm stuff...

Chaos and Evil
16-04-2009, 17:21
Now, I do like building models, and you don't get to do that with 6mm stuff...

Unless it's a Titan or something. :)

Ranger S2H
16-04-2009, 18:35
reading the thread, I noticed most people are put off because of the scale and quality of the epic range.
on the other hand, other people dont like apoc because of less tactics, long game time, and balance issues.
if you would want to play a large, impressive, strategic game with 40k figs, in limited time, could you put your 40k figures on bases, rework the scale, and play epic?
basically like Lord of the rings to War of the Ring.

note: never played LotR, WotR, and just started reading epic rules

Lamenter
16-04-2009, 18:58
One obvious reason would be that there's a lot more profit in selling hundreds of 40k scale figures, than selling hundreds of epic scale figures.

Chaos and Evil
16-04-2009, 19:01
if you would want to play a large, impressive, strategic game with 40k figs, in limited time, could you put your 40k figures on bases, rework the scale, and play epic?

You could, but you'd need a 20x30 foot table.

Ranger S2H
16-04-2009, 19:05
that might form a problem . . .
good point

Sir_Turalyon
16-04-2009, 19:08
Epic is a game made to represent large scale battles, Apocalypse is ruleset allowing to use your whole collection of miniatures at once. They are as different concepts as Cityfight and Cities of Death.

Coasty
16-04-2009, 22:44
Interesting.

I'd say Epic is your best bet for actual large scale battles in 40K-verse.

Apocalypse is for those rare moments that Epic just can't capture quite the same- storming the breach; the last, desperate defense of the tractor manufactorum; the rush for the take-at-all-costs bridge, etc etc.

That and Datasheets. As a Mek at heart, I just can't resist a game that lets me make stuff up.

AlmightyNocturnus
17-04-2009, 00:17
Apocalypse rules! It`s even more fun than regular games of 40K. There is no lack of tactic in Apocalypse (I don`t know who started that urban myth). Two fully painted 10,000 point armies facing off on a 12`x 8` board looks awesome; it looks like a White Dwarf battle report. Epic games of any size look unimpressive. Epic models look lame (one might argue the that there is some level of detail on the Titans at least) and are no fun to paint. I guess the real questions is: Why play Epic when we (finally) have rules for Apocalypse? The only answer I can come up with is: because it`s cheaper. So, if you`re new to wargaming and don`t have a lot of money, maybe you should play Epic...otherwise, head straight for the big leagues and play Apocalypse.

Almighy Nocturnus

Chaos and Evil
17-04-2009, 01:27
Apocalypse rules! It`s even more fun than regular games of 40K. There is no lack of tactic in Apocalypse (I don`t know who started that urban myth).

I don't know who first said it, but I agree with them!

Apocalypse is almost entirely decided by your starting army lists, and whoever wins the first turn, the 'game' practically plays itself.


Two fully painted 10,000 point armies facing off on a 12`x 8` board looks awesome

I happen to think Apocalypse games look silly.

Titans, Baneblades, and hundreds of infantry, all sneaked up to within ten feet of each other before the battle started?

In addition, how many hours would that 10,000pt battle take? Five? Eight?

But if that kind of spectacle / game experience appeals to you, then more power to you!


Epic games of any size look unimpressive. Epic models look lame (one might argue the that there is some level of detail on the Titans at least) and are no fun to paint.

Yep, 40k has the edge there, its models are very pretty.

I have 3 40k armies myself (Tyranids, Marines, and Elysians).


I guess the real questions is: Why play Epic when we (finally) have rules for Apocalypse?

Because Epic:

- Makes Apocalypse look as tactically complex as Tic-Tac-Toe.
- Takes only a couple of hours to play a full sized game.
- Is designed for adults.


So, if you`re new to wargaming and don`t have a lot of money, maybe you should play Epic...otherwise, head straight for the big leagues and play Apocalypse.

Epic is designed for 'Experienced Wargamers' (That's a direct quote from the Epic rulebook), so yes, by all means when you start out wargaming, head straight for Apocalypse, Epic would be an entirely inappropriate first wargame!

Apocalypse is designed for kids, and adults who just want to turn off their brains and roll dice... ...whatever Apocalypse is (And for many, it is simply a lot of fun, and more power to them!) it is not a tactically complex Wargame.

Later on when you may want a bit more from a game other than rolling dice, playing silly 'Strategems' and watching stuff explode, when you come to want a game that really taxes your tactical skills, and you'd like that game to be set in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, then you may want to try Epic.


So yeah, I agree with your suggestion ('Head straight for Apocalypse') wholeheartedly... just not with the same reasoning.

dodo129
17-04-2009, 04:32
First of all, let me say that I play both.
The thing is, to me 40K is more of hobby than a game. I have 3-4k of nicely painted Eldar, and I play maybe 8 games a year at most. The reason I spend hundreds of hours painting my miniatures is because to me, that's the core of 40K: It's a hobby. As others have said, Apoc is a good fun beer and pretzels style game that allows me to bring all 8 of my Heavy Support units, and field an Avatar + 8 Aspect squads as a formation. There is no strategy involved at all, and most people turn up with 3 unpainted BBs, but it's still good fun.

On the other hand, Epic is a game and not a hobby. Whilst I still put a lot of time and effort into painting my Epic models (It probably takes me the same time to paint an Epic stand that it does to paint 2 28mm models), it's actually a game. It has tactics and balance, and relies more on thinking; I can play 40K on autopilot, do the same things almost every game, and still do fairly well.
So I play both, but Epic is the "game" of the two. For me, Apoc is little more than a dynamic display table.

Tunnel Rat
17-04-2009, 05:52
I completely agree with what dodo129 wrote.

I'd also like to add that if you started out with 40k you'd mostly likely would want to make use of your collection so expanding to Apoc would seem natural.

Alternatively, I guess one could also play 40k using Epic minis. I think someone here actually did that. Made it a travel size version of 40k.

The only reason that I can think of switching from Apoc to Epic or vice versa is game mechanics... and gaming space I guess. An Epic size titan is definitely easier to put away!

Ghudra
17-04-2009, 06:12
[dodge repost]
Saying "I prefer 40K because I don't have to learn new rules" seems a wee bit off. I'm sure absolutely nobody has to learn anything new in 40K with new game editions or codices or poorly written/edited errata? I realize 40K is still played in inches and not a soul has changed a thing since Rogue Trader, but surely it wouldn't hurt to try something new. :D

So cattle-prods to the gonads aside, and assuming you could fill up on Apoc whenever the mood takes you, what would make you consider playing Epic?

[/dodge repost]

AlmightyNocturnus
17-04-2009, 06:22
Sorry, not convinced. Especially after playing Epic a half dozen times. It`s not a bad game, just unimpressive. I certainly didn`t find anything in it that especially made it appealling for adult gamers - except maybe Vern Troyer.

I thought of another good point about Epic though: you can paint things quickly by employing "the dipping method"!:)

The Epic-as-mini-40K idea is interesting. I read somewhere about people doing the same thing for FB using Warmaster minis.

For people in the 40K-is-just-how-many-buckets-of-dice-you-roll camp, I recommend Blood Bowl. Now that is a truly tactical game for adults. Every single dice roll counts big time. One mistake ends your turn. Now that`s a game for adults!:skull:

Almighty Nocturnus

Coasty
17-04-2009, 06:23
So, if you`re new to wargaming and don`t have a lot of money, maybe you should play Epic...otherwise, head straight for the big leagues and play Apocalypse.

Almighy Nocturnus

Big leagues? Good god, man. :rolleyes:

I'd love to run a sort of zooming-campaign; start off with BFG, invading planets and go to the new Mighty Empires-type thing using Epic for the really big battles and 40k or relatively low points value Apoc games for the little ones.

Occulto
17-04-2009, 07:20
Why is it that threads about specialist games inevitably turn into d*** waving competitions about who's got the most "adult" or "demanding" games? :eyebrows:

Bloosquig
17-04-2009, 08:10
First off lets not even get into the e-peen system waving. The apoc games I've played have all come down to where decisions are of critical importance and we were counting up contesting points and coming down to a handful of casualties that spelled the difference.

While my handful of Epic games were mindless dice wars between air units while the units on the ground fled screaming in all directions before being napalmed into burning debris.

This has little to do with the systems and everything to do with the players. Apocalypse can easily (god so easily) turn into a mindless mess of dice. Epic might be the strategists dream game. But thats not the way either worked for me and my gaming group.

In the end I don't play Epic because after a couple games everyone was stacking air units and bringing almost nothing on the ground and we went back to playing 40k. I'm getting interested in trying it again but finding it difficult to convince my small gaming group to do it. Until then I guess I'll play my Apoc games and ignore the unrealistic Ninja Titans. And the 10 hour games.

So play what works for you. Epic is fun, Apoc is fun. If you can play both give em a try and if not then play what you want and stop crying about why your game is inherently better/more strategic/increases your sexual prowess. </rant>

eek107
17-04-2009, 08:23
I happen to think Apocalypse games look silly.

Titans, Baneblades, and hundreds of infantry, all sneaked up to within ten feet of each other before the battle started?

You're assuming the player takes control right when the battle starts. And that's also assuming that said game is using the deployment rules suggested by the book. One of the key principles of Apocalypse is to override the rules if you think it will make the game more enjoyable.

Chaos and Evil
17-04-2009, 11:09
Why is it that threads about specialist games inevitably turn into d*** waving competitions about who's got the most "adult" or "demanding" games? :eyebrows:

Perhaps because several of the Specialist Games were indeed designed primarily for adults, instead of primarily for kids aged 11-14?

I play both 40k and Epic, and the difference in design philosophy is obvious.

As an adult, 40k is for turning off your brain and having a laugh (Playing in a 'beer and pretzels' style, if you like), whilst Epic is a real tactical challenge.


In the end I don't play Epic because after a couple games everyone was stacking air units and bringing almost nothing on the ground

Only Marines can take a large ammount of air units, did all your local players play armies consisting of nothing but Thunderhawk Gunships or something?

Every other army in the game is restricted to only having 1/3rd of the army list as aircraft/titan allies and so can't do the kind of silly army compositions you seem to have encountered.

Any air-centric tendency can be easily dealt with by taking four hundred points of AA units and shooting down anything that gets into range... you make yourself immune to air attacks and soon enough players stop taking silly army compositions and start playing the game properly.

Bloosquig
17-04-2009, 18:18
I played orks with fighta-bommas. Most others played Imperial forces of some kind with the Imperial air force. Anti Air was a priority target and went down FAST. Or it was deployed where it couldn't cover everything and what wasnt covered was nuked.

40K is struggling under a design philosophy change right now. Mainly that's "Sell every frakking model you can and get em on the table" this leads to rule changes that encourages fast play with crowded tables so you can squeeze all those pretty models on the table. This can hurt your tactics but doesn't make it less tactical per se.

Its the more popular game with the pretty models thus you get all the kiddies with their parents money buying up stuff. That makes people viewing the screaming mobs of children banging models together and drooling and seeing 40k as the kiddie game. If I had played epic long enough we would have worked out the kinks. It was a failure in us as inexperienced Epic players and not the system I'm sure.

The specialist games just haven't been popular enough to warrent the "upgrades" that the other main line systems have gotten.

Chaos and Evil
17-04-2009, 18:38
The specialist games just haven't been popular enough to warrent the "upgrades" that the other main line systems have gotten.

Which is a very good thing. :)



Most others played Imperial forces of some kind with the Imperial air force.

I'm quite surprised that these guys did well; The Imperial Navy airforce-heavy list style is pretty easy to defeat, what with all their squadrons only being 2-strong.

As you were nooblets it's quite possible (As you say) that your tactics weren't up to scratch, or crucial rules were missed.

Thraxar
22-04-2009, 21:52
I think we all know that Apocolypse is what happens when you make that engage order and attack another formation in epic.

Ddraiglais
01-05-2009, 14:03
All these Epic players saying that it's more adult or involves more strategy/tactics. Do any of you care to point out some of the rules (I'm not asking for specifics) or give some kind of example of how it involves more thinking?

I will second the comment that Apocalypse doesn't have to be played exactly like it is in the rulebook. I like Apocalypse rules with floorhammer. More terrain and different setups make Apocalypse a better game. It's also fun to theme games. Come up with a situation, disallow some strategems, come up with different objectives/win conditions, etc; and it doesn't have to be about dice rolling.

Johnnyfrej
01-05-2009, 14:25
Perhaps because several of the Specialist Games were indeed designed primarily for adults, instead of primarily for kids aged 11-14?


As an adult, 40k is for turning off your brain and having a laugh (Playing in a 'beer and pretzels' style, if you like), whilst Epic is a real tactical challenge.

Is the whole "40k is for kids" master-plot by GW actually exist or is it just speculation. I have never seen any proof that GW tries to sell 40k to the 11-14 age bracket.

Second, if 40k is about "turning your brain off" well isn't that just you deciding "I don't think this game is tactical so I won't even bother?" I've always found the tactics of 40k to depend more on the player than Army comp.

Meriwether
01-05-2009, 15:14
Epic (well, the last version I played) had a lot more suppression (what with blast markers and things) and an almost Napoleonic Wars-style command radius system.

It's really very, very different from 40K, and I don't think that citing one rule or another really demonstrates the differences. (That said, I still don't think that Epic is more tactical than 40K -- both games depend a great deal on your opponent).

Meri

McMullet
01-05-2009, 16:45
Of course, everything comes down to shades of grey. All being equal, a good tactician will beat a poor one at 40K; however, the effect of army selection and plain old bad luck is much bigger in 40K than it is in Epic. Of course a good 40K tactician can beat a "power" list with a mediocre one, but put two good players together, one with a themed Witch Hunter army and one with Holofield/Jetbike Eldar, and the situation is very unequal.

The lack of tactics is in 40K is shown, for me, by the lack of options you have; with my 40K armies, I rarely have much choice about what to do. I have to deploy my Devastators where they have a good field of fire, preferably in cover and/or contesting an objective. Once they're there, they have to stand still and shoot, or they aren't achieving anything. The choice boils down to "who shall I shoot". If I'm playing with Nids, the Hormagaunts need to be as far forward as possible, then run towards something squishy at full tilt until they can beat it up.

The activation sequence in Epic means you have to select the right formation when it's your go; you then have a choose of actions they can take (made all the more tactical a decision for us Ork players, since the choice off action affects our initiative rolls ;)). Every formation has a chance to hurt pretty much any other in some way; and the objective-based victory conditions mean that they can do a lot even if they don't. Then you have the choice of retaining or not; retain, and you can cripple a formation before it has the chance to do anything, but then you leave your opponent with free reign at the end of the turn.

With 40K there are tactical decisions, for sure, but there are less of them and they are generally more straightforward.

Ozendorph
01-05-2009, 17:00
Epic is a nice, clean system imo. It moves smoothly and has that whole "easy to learn, difficult to master" thing going for it. It's a good system.

Apocalypse is messy. It takes a lot of time and space, and requires a heavy investment of money and effort from the participants - sort of like war. However, if you really enjoy any or all of the following, you may have what it takes to be an Apocalypse Player:

1. Beer
2. Bolt Thrower
3. Scratch-building projects
4. Templates that double as serving platters

The whole idea that Apocalypse is devoid of strategy is poppycock. To me, that notion demonstrates a lack of either experience or creativity.

Shangrila
01-05-2009, 17:03
Epic tiny. Apocalypse huge!

QFT. I get to put all 30 of my Leman Russes on the table with my super heavys and over 400 guardsmen, and it looks impressive.

If i wanted to play epic i would've stuck to my micro machines.

BlackLegion
01-05-2009, 17:53
Well 30 Leman Russes and 80 stands of Guardsmen would look impressive in Epic too ;D

Dr.Clock
01-05-2009, 17:54
How about not having to totally rebuy my whole army??

After amassing thousands upon thousands of points of detailed models, it is nice to get large amounts of them to the table now and again.

Playing Epic is not a 'lesser' choice... nor is Apocalypse. But I think it is important to note that few people get into 40k FOR apocalypse - unless they paint ridiculously fast and have that strange mix of tonnes of disposable income AND free time...

If people cut their teeth on 40k and decide they want to play 'massive' battles sooner, Epic is a decent way to go. But I would hazard that getting a 1500 point Epic force assembled would cost just as much as a second (or developed) 1500 points for 40k. You'd also have the added variety of playing different lists and such - or throwing all 3000 points out there now and again.

As I say, I think money is a big motivator. I rarely invest in new armies for 40k - and when I do, I like them to 'mesh' with my existing collection... and also with my regular opponent's - as soon as we were to go to Epic it would be quite some time before we would be able to have the same variety of games as we can now have in 40k (we each own about three 3000+ point armies).

I'm sure Epic is great - but for myself at least, the models aren't as attractive and I'm already considerably invested in 40k.

I'm sure that some Apocalypse games get a little silly - but I've never seen a super-heavy - I and my regular opponent tend to get things we can use more often than the odd Apocalypse game. We also tend to play large games that 'could' be Apocalypse (3000 points) basically all the time. In absence of any CRAZY models on the board, the clash of many infantry and tank units on a decent board is engaging, tense and super fun. The pride one feels after seeing off 4 greater daemons with a mixture of 'lowly' SM and eldar units is fantastic.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Bigbot
01-05-2009, 17:56
honestly? Because Apocalypse looks epic (no, not a pun lol).

Both games are fun for different people, each to their own I say. I like apoc for the above reasons, others lie epic for the tactical choices. Swings and roundabouts.

Chaos and Evil
01-05-2009, 18:26
Nice to see this thread back. :D


I would hazard that getting a 1500 point Epic force assembled would cost just as much as a second (or developed) 1500 points for 40k.

For Space Marines, about 40-50.

Note that a standard sized Epic game is 3000pts, so a full sized army might cost you 80-100.

You can get 1000pts of Epic Marine infantry (Tactical, Devestator & Assault units) for 12 (Battle Company Box), or 170pts of 40k Marine Infantry for 18 (Tactical Squad Box).

So a full sized Epic army will cost around one third to one quarter of the price of a Warhammer 40,000 army.

popisdead
01-05-2009, 18:47
invent your own rules?

"uh,.. i'm just gonna take 5 broodlords and 18 dakka fex's"

Ozendorph
01-05-2009, 18:53
erm...what?

borithan
03-05-2009, 19:56
For Space Marines, about 40-50.

Note that a standard sized Epic game is 3000pts, so a full sized army might cost you 80-100.Hmm... I have managed to get a second hand epic eldar and epic SM army of about that size for about 30 each... true, they need quite a bit of work to get to a decent state, and they lack a great deal of variety, so I will probably eventually add some more new stuff eventually, but if you go online you can get things for even cheaper... though at the same time you can find even more expensive stuff, or stuff is just not available. Seems like its not worth trying to get Imperial Guard online, but Space Marines, for example, have plenty of stuff being sold.



You can get 1000pts of Epic Marine infantry (Tactical, Devestator & Assault units) for 12 (Battle Company Box), or 170pts of 40k Marine Infantry for 18 (Tactical Squad Box).Though I have to say 15 for 6 rhinos is just a wee bit steep... Nice models, sure, but when I can get 30 old plastic ones for 5 elsewhere?