PDA

View Full Version : "Am I a Bad Person?", or "Help Me Make Friends"



Shaper Shakra
15-04-2009, 13:49
I'm just beginning to get back into the game, and so I'm in the process of updating my lists. Yesterday I decided to bust out the ol' KoS. Now this list was never my strongest...in fact it was probably one of my weakest. But I like bikers and it was fun to play anyways.

So, I update my list with the new Ork codex, pleased to see all the rules I need to make my list are all in one book. I find an opponent, an Imperial Guard player using the 5th edition codex, and play a pretty good game (on both sides). However, after his 3rd turn, he begins to start whining about how my list is beardy, and then forfeits. Then, the three or four spectators started to get in on me, calling me a powergamer and a cheesemiester.

So, I ask you...am I a bad person? My intention with this list was not to make a powerful ultra-competitive force to be reckoned with. I just wanted a characterful themed list that I could occasionally bust out to play a fun game with. So here's the list:

All Bike KoS- 2000

HQ-
180p = Wazdakka Gutsmek

Elites-
380p = 7x Nob Bikers (6x Big Choppas, Bosspole, 1x Painboy)

Troops-
345p = 12x Warbikers (1x Nob w/Powerclaw, Bosspole)
345p = 12x Warbikers (1x Nob w/Powerclaw, Bosspole)
345p = 12x Warbikers (1x Nob w/Powerclaw, Bosspole)

Fast Attack-
135p = 3x Wartrakks (3x TL-Rokkit Launchas, 3x Grot Riggers)
135p = 3x Wartrakks (3x TL-Rokkit Launchas, 3x Grot Riggers)
135p = 3x Wartrakks (3x TL-Rokkit Launchas, 3x Grot Riggers)

What did I do wrong?

Brucopeloso
15-04-2009, 13:54
Nothing wrong with the list, I've seen much beardier stuff however a lot of people are scared stiff by nob bikers and cry cheese whenever they see them

Templar Ben
15-04-2009, 13:55
Nob bikers are a sign that you are a bad person and want to give drugs to children.

It is sad but true. Just do a search on Nob bikers.

That is the problem with pick up games.

Madmacmcmad
15-04-2009, 14:11
I personally love competative games. I dont think there is anything wrong with beardy armies and enjoy playing them.

I would be very happy to play that army with my orks and would enjoy it.

Nob bikers i really dont think are that blaggy as feel no pain is no where near as good as it use to be and they are blooming expensive. Seer council on the other hand is pure evil.

So no your not a bad person but make sure you play people who like a competative game.

RampagingRavener
15-04-2009, 14:14
While Nob Bikers can potentially be made into a disgustingly powerful unit, there really isn't anything terrifying in your army; it's certainly capable but hardly broken or overpowered. Looks like you just ran into a particularly unpleasant gang of players, I think.

Sasori_jap
15-04-2009, 14:19
He was a bad loser wasnt he?

Dawn of the Dogs
15-04-2009, 14:22
nob bikers are bad, and you should feel bad...

:p

nah, just kidding. i see a strong, challenging, themed list.

needs more deff coptas though.

Darkstar2586
15-04-2009, 14:23
Nob bikers are a sign that you are a bad person and want to give drugs to children.


Sorry this has been quoted in my sig, i nearly pissed myself at work :P

Madmacmcmad
15-04-2009, 14:30
lol, tbh orks make the most competative themed lists.

180 ork horde - themed
Truck/ battlewagon rush - themed
Bike army - themed

Plastic Parody
15-04-2009, 14:30
Armies that max out on one theme can be difficult for general lists to cope with some times. Having said that your list is far from cheesy, its a cult of speed list.

Sounds as if your opponent made a few mistakes as the game wore on and could take the results.

Solar_Eclipse
15-04-2009, 14:36
Well, to start with, Imperial Guard have trouble with very fast, very tough enemies, and Warbikers are fast and tough, especially to a lasgun.

Now, if i was him i would invest into a Leman Russ Eradicator or 2, a Colossus and and some Hellhounds.

Stuff which has a Good AP and Ignores cover= Death to Ork Bikers.

Eradicator is the best there, i think.

Count de Monet
15-04-2009, 14:46
"Really? This list is cheesy? Hmm, howabout instead of having my Nob Bikers as Elites, I throw in a Warboss and make them Troops too? And I should probably vary the gear a lot more on them while I'm at it, so I can really take advantage of wound allocation. I'm sorry that you didn't bring enough firepower to handle some AV10 vehicles or a bunch of 1-wound guys with a 4+ save, and that your guardsmen are apparently allergic to stairs."

Shaper Shakra
15-04-2009, 14:49
Thanks guys. And to be honest, the Nob Bikers aren't really the apocalypse cometh. They can soak up a lot of firepower, sure, but the smaller squad size means less shots from the bike going in, which seems to makes a HUGE difference. And if they get charged by a dedicated assault unit...

solkan
15-04-2009, 14:54
The spectators appearantly looked at your army and said, "OMG, I saw on the Internet that Nob bikerz was cheezy," without understanding why it was cheesy. Bah.

As far as I can tell, you took bikers WITHOUT wound allocation exploitation, so you appear to be a decent, respectable person. ;)

W0lf
15-04-2009, 14:55
Get some self esteem and tell them where to shove it.

Seriously had to be said.

Cane
15-04-2009, 14:57
If you have to ask if you're a bad person or not, then you most definitely are :evilgrin:

Although I've yet to face a list like that one in 5th edition, but from an IG perspective I can see how it can absolutley wreck havoc on nearly any list I can think of with no real decent counter list (new dex included). You've got the speed to wreck havoc on anything from vehicles to infantry and the armor 10 of IG "tanks" is more on the realms of LOL than a piece of fearsome armor.

SylverClaw
15-04-2009, 14:59
Playing devils advocate; spamming the same or very similar units like this isn't really that much fun to play against. And it is hard to beat when your army is balanced.

But boohoo for him. It's a nice themed list even if it is a bit dull... so long as they are all red 'un it's completely Orky!

Out of interest, what did he take?

Thud
15-04-2009, 15:38
There's no way that list is cheesy. Hard, yes. Cheesy, no.

Tell your opponents to grow a pair.

It is, however, a bit boring. If I were you I'd mix it up a bit with the units. Add some Trukk Boyz perhaps, just to make it a little more fun.

sydbridges
15-04-2009, 15:48
Elites-
380p = 7x Nob Bikers (6x Big Choppas, Bosspole, 1x Painboy)

My guess is the nob bikers. Not that the unit as you built them is cheesy (since your unit doesn't appear to be built to take advantage of the wound allocation rules), but because people often use nob bikers to create cheese, many people irrationally start braying when they see them.

cleansingfury
15-04-2009, 15:58
You arent a bad person... he was... Using our current codex for guard I play lists like this all the time as the younger kids fail to remember the nob bikers are meaner... So my answer is 3 Leman Russ, 3 Hellhounds and lots of auto cannons. So just like that I may be able to wipe your army in one turn. Actually pulled it off once but had to charge with a squad of guardsmen... So this army really isnt that mean but it is still a pain in the rear. I love themed ork lists because they are still fun and competitive. Where as themed guard is well... playing guard...

Shaper Shakra
15-04-2009, 16:13
Get some self esteem and tell them where to shove it.

Seriously had to be said.

Can think of no response other than, "lol u r reel man".



Playing devils advocate; spamming the same or very similar units like this isn't really that much fun to play against. And it is hard to beat when your army is balanced.

But boohoo for him. It's a nice themed list even if it is a bit dull... so long as they are all red 'un it's completely Orky!

Out of interest, what did he take?

He had two regular Russes, a Vanquisher, a conscript squad with the thing that removes them and brings a new squad in, a counts-as Creed, and blocks and blocks of standard infantry.

Nostro
15-04-2009, 16:16
The spectators appearantly looked at your army and said, "OMG, I saw on the Internet that Nob bikerz was cheezy," without understanding why it was cheesy. Bah.

As far as I can tell, you took bikers WITHOUT wound allocation exploitation, so you appear to be a decent, respectable person. ;)


My guess is the nob bikers. Not that the unit as you built them is cheesy (since your unit doesn't appear to be built to take advantage of the wound allocation rules), but because people often use nob bikers to create cheese, many people irrationally start braying when they see them.

My thoughts too. If you're not acquainted with the cries about the rule exploitation (which I deem justified): you can have each NB equipped with a unique combination of wargear, making him by himself a category for wound allocation, then clever wound spreading improves wildly the unit's durability.

In your unit it seems that 2-3 wounds would lead you to lose a nob. With the exploit it can be up to the 8th wound before you drop a nob and then start to lose in firing and hitting power. That a choice of token wargear (bosspole, eavy armour...) can lead to such drastic changes of durability of the same unit is IMHO wrong but that's getting a bit off topic.

Nob Bikers are indeed very tough but manageable by a good opponent; exploited wound allocation NB are a lot tougher and become undercosted. Hence the internet rage about them.

Seeing that, simple minds confuse the two and merge everything in "Nob Bikerz are cheese" hence the reaction of your opponent.

It has to be said though:


Armies that max out on one theme can be difficult for general lists to cope with some times. Having said that your list is far from cheesy, its a cult of speed list.

Sounds as if your opponent made a few mistakes as the game wore on and could take the results.

Spamming decent/good units is usually a bit harder for your opponent to deal with if he's unprepared. Your list doesn't deserve cheese calling though. And your opponent really looks like a sore loser.

Mazdug
15-04-2009, 16:19
I would also note that you aren't even including the standard Painboy to give the unit the 5+ invulnerable and Feel No Pain. And no PKs to instagib his tanks? Shame on you for not being beardy enough.

Thanatos_elNyx
15-04-2009, 16:33
The fact that all your Troops are identical and your FA choices are all identical, does make it look like you were min/maxing which is a precursor of beardyness.

Bunnahabhain
15-04-2009, 16:38
The spectators appearantly looked at your army and said, "OMG, I saw on the Internet that Nob bikerz was cheezy," without understanding why it was cheesy. Bah.

As far as I can tell, you took bikers WITHOUT wound allocation exploitation, so you appear to be a decent, respectable person. ;)

Seconded!

This is spot on.

You have a non cheesy, well themed list, that could very easily BUT DOESNT use the current cheese unit of choice, pain boy, wound allocation abuse nob bikers.

Your list is not the problem, or no more than 5% of the problem, anyway. The onlookers, and wimpish opposition are the major factor here.

Hicks
15-04-2009, 16:56
You field elite nob bikers without powerklaws and don't abuse wound alocation, this in my opinion isn't cheezy at all.

However, Orks now have a reputation for attracting cheezemongers rather than the joyfull orky players of old (so the internet says). It's possible that the spectators thought you had one of those almost unkillable cheezy nob biker army, especially since you used so much bikes.

WanderingRogue
15-04-2009, 17:04
well as a kos player and tourney player myself i can see multuiple ways to make this list "better" lol .. so no this isnt chessy, its themed and you happen to have a hard unit which other people abuse but which you havent..

Wanna cheese it up?? then mess about with the wargear on the nobs to make them all individuals with unique wargear so you can mess about with the wound allocation and take of grot rigers cos they are useless.. THEN its a cheesy power gaming (ish) list..

You havent done that so i wouldnt worry.. the guy was being a tool.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
15-04-2009, 17:11
You're fine. In many situations you specifically missed cheeze options. It's one thing to say tooled up nob bikers who play fast and loose with wound allocation rules are cheeze, and quite another to say that ALL nob bikers are cheeze. The guard player was just being a wuss about losing. Too bad, so sad.

Warforger
15-04-2009, 17:21
Yah, there only cheese with there massive amount of options letting them take advantage of the wound allocation rules, and since Nob Bikers usually have a 4+ save against nearly everything, that makes them cheese. What your opponents did to you would be the equivalent of someone calling Ravenwing "cheese", don't worry, you could be a BA/DA player and be called "cheese" just because you have one expensive and awesome unit.

TBH I am tired of Guard players bitching, they have a solid codex and can easily take on any army. Seriously, the amount of trolling Guard players add to there bitching makes it annoying. I guess I'll have to go out and play with my cheesy Death Company with my cheesy overpriced units and cheesy strategy and tactics because if I win its because my list is cheese. :angel:

Logarithm Udgaur
15-04-2009, 17:27
This is what you did wrong. Because of the gestalt nerd rage on the internet, many people see a unit of Nob Bikers as "unfair."



Elites-
380p = 7x Nob Bikers (6x Big Choppas, Bosspole, 1x Painboy)

Prokrustes
15-04-2009, 17:31
Since you didnt have the intent to make a beardy list and given that you didnt eat their liver on toast for such a comment, I doubt you are a bad person. Seems your opponent is a sore loser...

Sanctjud
15-04-2009, 17:31
As I said on Vassal, it's still a hard list. When an army is that streamlined, you enter into the competitive territory. Playing against a friendly list, or pulling it out on some new guy is really not the way to go with this kind of list.

Nob bikers ( abusing rules or not ) are still an issue that needs to be dealt with, and are still pretty tough.
Sure they lack claws, but it still hits like a ton of brinks...with so many attacks and decently strengthed, you'll take out infantry, and even tanks (as it's lighter armor on the back).
They are defensively tough against small arms, and get their cover vs. most ordinance, so they are still a pain to kill through range.

Not only that, you have saves points from nob claws, and placed more points into similar units that drive as fast, pretty durable, dakka, combatty.

Playing against guard may not be the best gauge as to the performance of the list. But I think it's a pretty 'Ard list in the right hands, and not appropiate for every type of gameplay.

But, 'cheese' is fun to throw around...

My 7 Cents.

Tae
15-04-2009, 17:38
No painboy.

No wound allocation abuse.

No problem.

Count de Monet
15-04-2009, 17:54
Well, there *is* actually a painboy, ;) but that's not enough to make it over the top.

Grazzy
15-04-2009, 18:32
Nice list, but not beardy. If you however put different wargear on every nob biker and took hordes of orks for troops then that would be a cheesy army.

Tae
15-04-2009, 18:33
Well, there *is* actually a painboy, ;) but that's not enough to make it over the top.

No me paying attention then :rolleyes:

But yes, it's not anywhere near abusive.

Coasty
15-04-2009, 19:30
Beardy? Nah. Not really.

Not propa, though. Weedy biker gitz.

Grindgodgrind
15-04-2009, 19:39
'Nout wrong with that list. I think the other player just knee-jerked when he realised you had Nob Bikers.

Templar Ben
15-04-2009, 20:40
Sorry this has been quoted in my sig, i nearly pissed myself at work :P

I have arrived I suppose. :p

RustyKnight
15-04-2009, 21:05
This list isn't "beardy" or "cheesy". The only problem is the fact that you took so many completely identical units. That looks suspicious, and, against some armies, will be a very nasty list.

The fact that three bystanders felt that they had to mock you is just sickening.

monopeludo
15-04-2009, 22:45
You did nothing wrong.
This list is not cheesy. It's solid, it's fluffy, and sure looks great on the tabletop. But not cheesy.
I really can't understand why people is so mad about wound alocation on nob bikers. That's what they are, tough as nails.

Corrode
15-04-2009, 23:13
Whoever you played was an idiot, ignore him. Your list is fine.

A1TEC
16-04-2009, 00:31
I like your list. Dont worry about this guy.

Warforger
16-04-2009, 01:22
Actually, they might have thought your Boy Bikerz to be Nob Bikers now that I think of it, of course REAL cheese would be a nob biker ARMY with Grots as objective holders (Double Warboss on Bike, two Nob Biker mobs as troops and 3 Nob Mobs as elites, then Grots to hold objectives).

MadJackMcJack
16-04-2009, 01:59
What did I do wrong?

My guess is, you started to win. Forfieting halfway through a game because you think the other army is broken is highly suspect, and smacks of cowardice. It's like ordering a meal, eating most of it, then complaining that it's undercooked in order to try and wrangle a free meal. It sets off the ol' spidey sense. If he'd just refused in the first place, that would've been a little gittish, but at least your time isn't wasted, and if he was a good player he'd have stuck it out.

Legionary
16-04-2009, 02:07
Taking Nob Bikerz is never going to go down well. They have a bad reputation for wound allocation, and even though your list is not designed to abuse wound allocation they're still affected by the taint. They're also (in my view) undercosted for their effectiveness.

Your list is at least themed, though I think most people facing Orks would expect at least some element of horde rather than an elite biker squadron. In short, you didn't do anything wrong but the current ruleset means that fielding Nob Bikerz is likely to always cause your opponent's eyebrows to raise.

Joewrightgm
16-04-2009, 02:09
Nob bikers are a sign that you are a bad person and want to give drugs to children.

Damn, that made me laugh.

Nob bikers in the game are a difficult unit for most armies to deal with. However, you're playing a fluffy list that seems like it'd be a ball to play against.

Its not beardy in the least. Just a good 'ard list.

Drakon
16-04-2009, 02:58
had to play the nob bikers with different wound allocation following a warboss on bike in apoc a couple of weeks ago. Not nice to deal with. Especially when your also got 2 battle wagons and a can squad coming at you hiding behind a force field. More marines died than orks which just doesnt seem right. but to top it off they were flank marched :(.

This list is not cheesy but as previously said its still competitive.

Filthy O'Bedlam
16-04-2009, 03:19
Sore Loser Syndrome, that's all it is.
I'd would play against that list with no hesitation. It's a fluffy KoS list, and looks like lots of fun to play with.

The problem is them, not you. Don't let it bring you down.

Cheers, Filthy

Occulto
16-04-2009, 03:55
Well, to start with, Imperial Guard have trouble with very fast, very tough enemies, and Warbikers are fast and tough, especially to a lasgun.

Now, if i was him i would invest into a Leman Russ Eradicator or 2, a Colossus and and some Hellhounds.

Stuff which has a Good AP and Ignores cover= Death to Ork Bikers.

Eradicator is the best there, i think.

New IG codex is out already? :eyebrows:

Warforger
16-04-2009, 04:04
It appears everyone has the pirated pdf version. So to the community yes.

Occulto
16-04-2009, 04:14
It appears everyone has the pirated pdf version. So to the community yes.

Might prove interesting if the game was in a GW store. :p

A1TEC
16-04-2009, 06:43
My guess is, you started to win. Forfieting halfway through a game because you think the other army is broken is highly suspect, and smacks of cowardice. If he'd just refused in the first place, that would've been a little gittish, but at least your time isn't wasted, and if he was a good player he'd have stuck it out.

I agree, he might of hated the game because he was loosing, so he just gave up. This is not good in Warhammer 40 000, because think about what would happen in the universe if all armies fortieted. I'll tell you, the imperium would be crushed long ago.

nexttothemoon
16-04-2009, 10:47
Now I'm not an expert on 40K yet... I admit I'm at the newbie stage still... but I've been gaming in one form or another for a long time and the worst thing possible when you are playing any game is to just give up and quit like a sore loser in the middle of a game and call the other fellow "cheesy" or in other words a powergamer. That's inexcusable in my opinion.

Right up there with outright cheating and stealing figs from your mates to sell them on Ebay. :)

Having a small crowd taunt you even though you were playing fair and square is crap as well.

Now there's a difference if everyone is having fun and just cracking on each other as they play but that doesn't sound like the case here... the fellow quit and the others sound like they'd do the same in his position as well by their comments. I wouldn't recommend playing with them either as you'll end up with the same type of experience most likely.

I always play every game to WIN... no doubt about it. I still have fun though and if I get beat it may suck and feel lopsided but I'm not going to quit half way through and call my opponent cheesy or powergamers. Play the ******* game to the best of your ability, have fun and play by the rules or don't play at all is what I've always thought.

Now seeing things from your opponents point of view... they likely wanted to just have a fun time playing a light game of 40k without cutthroat gameplay.

Well newsflash... this is 40K... not Barbie dolls and teaparties.

You kill and get killed in this game. We could all just get in a circle and hold hands and admire each others painted models and call it a draw. That would solve all the problems with powerlists and cheezy beards.

Being a gamer (and not a pansy)... when I get beat badly I look for revenge (in a fair and sporting way of course :) ). I try to build a better list and look forward to a rematch. Use a defeat to learn from my mistakes. Get better at my tactics. Look at the other fellows strengths and see where I can put a chink in his armour. Strengthen my weak areas so I can put forward a more competitive effort next time. Losses make me look inwards at myself and at my army lists so I'm better for the future games I'll play... no matter who they are against.

A loss is only a bad thing if you don't learn anything from it because you don't learn nearly as much from a win as you do from a crushing defeat.

Anyway... summing up I think it's just a case where they can't take what the game of 40K is dishing out. If they have a problem with what 40K armies are capable of and don't like losing (an inevitable part of gaming) then simply switch games to charades or X's and O's.

MadJackMcJack
16-04-2009, 10:54
I agree, he might of hated the game because he was loosing, so he just gave up. This is not good in Warhammer 40 000, because think about what would happen in the universe if all armies fortieted. I'll tell you, the imperium would be crushed long ago.

General: We will crush the enemies of the Imperium!
Guardsman: General, the Orks are slightly winning sir!
General: What!? Screw this, we're going home!

Warboss: Were'z dem gitz goin'!?

Sanctjud
16-04-2009, 13:22
Again, it's only a PoV from each person.

I know there's a fine line between Friendly and Competitive lists in my Vassal and real life games, but if it's blurred for you... it's prob. just how your gaming group plays.

People have a variety of levels of involvement in the hobby, holistic or not.

My 7 Cents.

galahad67
16-04-2009, 13:50
it's a list that is difficult to play against if you were expecting to face sloooow armies...

The nobz bikz are not maximized.

there is only 1 HQ.

There is limited anti-armour capacity.

it has speed and 1 hard (but not over the top) unit but little else.

compare you army to a Truely competitive/maxed out Speedfreaks army:

2 warbosses on bikes with powerclaws, squigs, bosspoles
2 units of 7 or 8 nobz on bikes - Maxed out with 3 powerclaws, 2 large choppas, etc
3 units of orc boyz to hold objectives or slowly move forward...
grotz to stay home and make supper on objectives...

Your Army is nothing like that.