PDA

View Full Version : So how have the new WoC turned out?



NakedBarbarian
16-04-2009, 09:51
Hello all,

Im back from a break from WFB i had to take time off due to commitments to my new job. I left the game shortly before the release of WoC and was looking forward to it as i felt the HoC was quiet a weak list and the subsequent WD get u by list was a shocker. Can any body tell me what the new list is like?

In particular i want to know
whats different
what cheese lists you've seen spun out
you experiences against them
and if you field WoC the difference in playability vs. previous lists

Thankyou

The Red Scourge
16-04-2009, 10:06
You could try out the nifty search function. It'd be a whole lot faster that way ;)

kroq'gar
16-04-2009, 10:12
I dont like it - stripping the other chaos creatures into their own lists has made WoC play very bland... either stomp them, or magic and stomp them.

The list promotes enemies to field magic heavy gunlines and refuse to engage you in combat save with cavalry charges and lords.

W0lf
16-04-2009, 10:17
Hi i played hordes for about 2 years then moved onto warriors. Im a mono-Tz kinda guy and a tad biased (i hate WoC, loved hordes)

Diffrent;

1. You can mix completly freely. The ONLY restricition is on God specific mounts. That is to say you can have a Nurgle lord with the axe of khorne, pendant of slaanesh and eye of Tzeentch leading a unit of chaos knights with the mark of Tzeentch and the banner of Rage.

2. Khorne mark no longer generates DD which means they are less unique and players are practically forced to take a scroll caddy.

3. Fluff was changed so that all the chaos gods are friends.. sigh.

4. Tzeentch mark is 6+ ward or +1 to existing ward. Wizards also get +1 to cast. No more warrior-mages.

5. New spell lores are all better and disgusting. Spells like buboes, pandemonium, gateway and curse of the leper all stand out.

6. All chaos knights are effectivly chosen, same for warriors.

7. Marauders can be marked.

8. Eye of the gods means all our characters and champs have to issue and accept challenges (which really sucks).

9. Plethora of new special characters and old ones make a return. Archaon gained a few new abilites and dropped like 200 pts.

10. We got chaos gifts that dont come out of magic item allowance. Howveer we are heavily restricted on what can take what and they for the most part are useless. About 3 ever get used.

Thats most of it i think.

Cheese;

First up WoC are a more powerful list then Hordes. Easily. However they are not ont he same level as many other 7th edition armies and arnt capable of the kind of cheddar vamps/daemons/DE/HE/Lizards can produce.

Most cheese lists rely on taking max magic or max knights. Both are powerful and easily abused. I dont find chaos does the Dragon-led army as well as HE/DE/Vamps due to support+cost.

I like mono-god which kinda means i handicap myself. Though i do run 12 PD with the new improved tzeentch lore. Taking 4 uits of 7 khorne knights is also a hndful for most opponents. Assuming 6 in B2B contact (likely) they get; 18 S5 + 12 S4 attacks.

Theres also the trollstar which is 1 unit of 40 trolls with sigvald (stubborn ld 10) and throgg (makes trolls core and bsb for monsters) with 2x 5 marauder horse as min core.

Experience against them;

Against them; they are a very one dimensional army that ive never really had trouble beating. Only really scary thing are khorne knights but they have weakness's.

with them? I find knights win games, warriors are still laughably useless againts good players and magic wins games. Ive also found short of being a BSb or a disc rider (or both) that exalteds are largely useless. WoC dont need combat characters to win combats, we have the hardest troops in the game. I do also feel like nearly every battle is an uphill struggle.. though i do win 7/10.

Diffrence in playability?

In short my wizards dont have exalted/chaos lord stats. My 12 powerdice do far more then 15 ever did with the new lore and chaos knights = win. I also find myself taking more marauders then normal and no chariots (used to always run a pair). The loss of beastmen is a huge blow to variety + fun imo.


Now i have a shiny new vampire army i doubt ill ever play WoC again. They sucked my enjoyment out of warhammer fantasy and i nearly quit playing.

NakedBarbarian
16-04-2009, 11:47
Thankyou w0lf thats pretty much got me what i needed

I too play a monogod Khorne army, but my last purchase in preparation for WoC was a handfull of wizards and a T-lord on disk, so are you saying that if i just run with a stack of marked marauders, marauder horsmen, khorne knights and some wizards and flying T-lord i will pretty much be fine?

I really don't like cheese its just the gaming circle i used to be in and getting back into tends to field uber competitive if not a little cheesed up army lists, and being outta the loop for so long looks like i gotta hell of alot of catch up cheers

StarFyre
16-04-2009, 12:50
I love the eye of the gods table since 'it makes sense.' What i mean by that:

I can envision chaos being like that. Gods watching their champions fight for them and either bless or curse them as they wish.

Coming from a D&D background, very much like a a chosen of a god (chosen of Mystra), or Dark Sun's champions of Rajaat, etc.

Also, it gives some more new options within the chaos book tohelp diversify (although it occurs during a game, instead of during army design...it's still overall more diversity, something i wish other armies had) (ie. more options).

Sanjay

Rikkjourd
16-04-2009, 12:55
I started WoC this edition. The things that always perform for me are:
Knights (MoK and sometimes a banner EDIT: No frickin lances! I would seriously pay 5pts for ensorc weapons if they had lances to begin with)
Hounds (no upgrades, fives)
At least two dispel scrolls (to stop for example Metal lore spell #6 twice before reaching his lines.)

EvC
16-04-2009, 12:57
Good analysis by Wolf. Although I do know far more people that have been turned off by Vampire Counts after a few months of using them this edition, wanting something a bit more deep than invocation-spamming :)

IcedCrow
16-04-2009, 13:03
You can do more with VC than invoc - spamming it's just that that's the easiest way to win with them.

My VC army had 3 power dice in it. And spells rarely if ever go off.

Warriors of Chaos are a fun army but very one dimensional. That's the part I don't like about them. Granted we do have some upper tier beasts we can use like the giants, etc... but the fluff changes and the way armies mix marks and what not seems a little off to me.

Cap'n Facebeard
16-04-2009, 13:06
As Wolf summed up the gameplay aspect perfectly, I can only add that the overall feel of the WoC took a serious hit. Am I the only one put off by fluff cut and pasted from previous editions, with extra bits typed in to prevent it even being 'old school cool'?

For the record, GW:
Chaos Gods as unknowable Lovecraftian gods > ooh I haz skull throne!
Original written fluff > badly edited recut and pasted original fluff
Chaos Gods hate each other > Extra-dimensional tea party

Fenrir
16-04-2009, 13:32
Gateway for the win!

EvC
16-04-2009, 13:35
You can do more with VC than invoc - spamming it's just that that's the easiest way to win with them.

Absolutely true- but this is Wolf we're talking about ;)

Tae
16-04-2009, 13:52
Chaos Gods hate each other > Extra-dimensional tea party

Consider that stolen good sir.

Edit. As for the OP, I quite like it. I liked Hordes more I must admit, but I still like WoC.

There are still some absurdly hard combinations you can take. One of these is the Tzeentch list I run with which comprises Villitch, 3 other Sorcerers, the Black Tongue and the Infernal Puppet. Basically if my opponent fails his casting roll not only do I get bonus dispell dice but I can make it into a miscast and then modify the roll on the miscast table. I'm actually choing to pull it down to a 5/6 more than any other result (including 2) - since 2 kills that wizard, 5/6 means I can cast Infernal Gateway and potentially take out an entire unit! Eat that deathstar armies.

Death_to_the_Xenos
16-04-2009, 14:05
I was going to start a pure khorne army with the new army book but with the changes it doesnt work at all:mad:
if they had just taken the hordes of chaos book and removed the deamons and addded in just a few of the beastmen unit they would have made a really good army book that would have been balanced although they would have to move some of the units to the special and rare choices

EvC
16-04-2009, 15:31
There are still some absurdly hard combinations you can take. One of these is the Tzeentch list I run with which comprises Villitch, 3 other Sorcerers, the Black Tongue and the Infernal Puppet. Basically if my opponent fails his casting roll not only do I get bonus dispell dice but I can make it into a miscast and then modify the roll on the miscast table. I'm actually choing to pull it down to a 5/6 more than any other result (including 2) - since 2 kills that wizard, 5/6 means I can cast Infernal Gateway and potentially take out an entire unit! Eat that deathstar armies.


Gateway for the win!

As if by magic...

akgaroth
16-04-2009, 17:00
Overall I have to admit that I liked the new WoC armybook: the troops have been boosted and you can create at least a decent army list using any of the options that the books offers you. I agree however that I didn't like the de facto forced mark-mix of troops (killing mono-god armies and Chaos Undivided in the proccess:mad:) and how bad they made the "combat" characters (expensive and with mediocre equipement options).

Dungeon_Lawyer
16-04-2009, 17:19
I think woc is a better army than doc cause its not broken, but breaking up chaos into 3 seperate books has been IMO an unmitigated disaster-DoC broken, WoC boring/one dimensional, BoC broken(they suck). When playing against WoC lore of metal, always take Lore of Metal.

Godgolden
16-04-2009, 17:34
When i play WOC i dont finish a game hating the world, a success!

ran a infantry army against VC knight army, he charged, i held for 3 turns and eventually killed his general and won.

bless banner of the gods :)

thought i would put that in here as i frikkin loved that game.

It seems fluff monkeys whos constantly chatter in your ear about fluff and stuff i dont care about for hours upon hours loose out with WOC, it makes me happy.

omg your mono khorne doesnt have magic defence, then stop whining and point click your 3 units of knights.

Result: damn good army, has flaws but those flaws dont break Tournaments *cough* daemons.

end result: it could be better but its a damn good army.

omg mixing stuff... and?

try something different with WOC, you might be pleasantly suprised like i was, who knew warrior blocks worked with a hero each.

Kerill
16-04-2009, 17:51
Hordes was far more fun as an army. FAR FAR more fun.

WOC made me annoyed enough to buy a whole new army almost from scratch (Tzeentch themed lizards), but I've got back in to WOC since and am still enjoying them. Knightspam is not the only way to win and warriors can definitely be useful but you have to build them into a list with care (or take the silly banner of the gods and forget about an interesting army for one based solely around a single magic item to make your army valid).

Magic is more powerful but no longer works with the army, its a seperate entity to itself (a real shame, and a big loss of fun compared to hordes).

Apart from mages WOC characters suck except at mage hunting (and maybe an infantry based army if your playgroup are not harcore WAAC). There is no good reason to take a combat exalted if you still have a special slot left.

I'm happy enough with the way my current army works but there is nowhere near as much depth for listbuilding and play as there was in 6th edition. My thoughts on Phil Kelly, if written, would probably get me banned from the forum so I'll leave that there.

Having said that, post FAQ they are slightly better than pre FAQ.

Lists with mixed units can work but they need to be very well tailored IMO.

Gateway is both great and a travesty- it helps with a lot of the weaknesses WOC has relative to HOC but the autokill in a game can really kill the fun for your opponent.

CrownAxe
16-04-2009, 17:55
From what i hear, Marauders with MoK and Great weapons are suppose to be amazing, 18 of them for 120 is quite cheap and effect to my understanding

Kerill
16-04-2009, 17:58
Very useful as a cheap threat. Dead if charged by anything. Useful in their role indeed (I have a unit in my list) but not the be all and end all.

Godgolden
16-04-2009, 19:41
wow a magic item countering your weaknesses.. since when was that a bad thing?

on a side note, found your comment alittle insulting, i used the banner once and found it very useful, i have used the warrior infantry blocks to good effect with generalship and skill and heros in each unit, your comment was both uninformed and off the mark, the item simply makes it that much stronger.

Seville
16-04-2009, 20:52
To the OP -

The new WoC army is fun. Why don't you try it rather than listening to the same old naysaying fan boys of Warseer? It's fun and dead powerful, provided you are a good player and have some imagination.

W0lf
16-04-2009, 23:28
For the record after 1 day with my shiny new vamps and 2 massacres) no one wants to play me :/.... :angel:

Ive put off buying a vamps army for months because i knew this would happen.. Its not my fault i love them and you'd be a dumbass not to abuse invoc+danse. (which i did horribly :eek:)


Absolutely true- but this is Wolf we're talking about

LMAO. I took your comment out of my sig to fit in my vamps record and now im going to have to put this in. Even w/o the context you get the gist (if youve been here long enough to 'know' me :D)

Tokamak
16-04-2009, 23:30
I really think the WoC improved allot and are better at place than in the HoC.

W0lf
16-04-2009, 23:36
Do you play WoC?
Did you play hordes?

Probably not.


Also on topic id like to say that WoC was a real missed opportunity. It was a pretty well balanced book and compared to the other recent releases very fair.

If they had simply lost EoTG, made buboes spell 2, swapped gateway for bolt and khorne knights frenzy dosnt affect mount (its somethign at least) then itd be a nicer book imo. Sure more could be done but it was just such a waste of potential. Likewise i think it would have been better if the gifts had simply not been included and the magic items all had generic names (if mixing was so free)

Sirroelivan
16-04-2009, 23:45
Likewise i think it would have been better if the gifts had simply not been included and the magic items all had generic names (if mixing was so free)

There is nothing stopping you from refluffing magic items.

For marks the same, for example mark of khorne can easily fit under slaanesh: "lust for battle etc..." ,
Nurgle can fit under Tzeentch (Tzeentch protecting his favoured ones), and so on.

Kerill
17-04-2009, 00:21
wow a magic item countering your weaknesses.. since when was that a bad thing?

on a side note, found your comment alittle insulting, i used the banner once and found it very useful, i have used the warrior infantry blocks to good effect with generalship and skill and heros in each unit, your comment was both uninformed and off the mark, the item simply makes it that much stronger.

No need to be insulted, the comment wasn't directed at you, I hate the banner in general, and an all-comers all infantry army (a horde) should be viable without it. Sadly, it isn't although MSU is possible.

I find a unit of warriors quite useful myself, and its more fun playing a mixed list but in general they break too easily versus anything dangerous and can be avoided by a good number of armies in warhammer.

orkz222
17-04-2009, 01:57
Have some experience against all cavalry WOC army @1k, very fast and damn the chaos ar and Mark of nurgle :(

Darkangeldentist
17-04-2009, 03:38
I rather like the warriors of chaos book. It's a shame that when a reasonably balanced book gets released after a couple of powerful ones all people can talk about is how inferior it is to such and such (daemons and undead in this case).

The main problem I've been finding is not creating good units or combinations of items for characters but putting the whole lot together into decent army. Both characters and units can become prohibitively expensive and soon you are left with just a bunch of models, not an army.

Striking a balance seems to be the hardest part as the book does contain a couple of obviously exploitable areas. (Infernal gateway for example.) If you can avoid those crutches I think the book contains some rather interesting lists that can provide quite a lot of fun.

Kerill
17-04-2009, 05:19
I rather like the warriors of chaos book. It's a shame that when a reasonably balanced book gets released after a couple of powerful ones all people can talk about is how inferior it is to such and such (daemons and undead in this case).

Absolute nonsense.

W0lf
17-04-2009, 09:01
I love how theres like 100 hordes players who all complain about WoC being less fun + fluffy ut more powerful...

then everyone who has no idea what they are talking about or have read the posts say WoC are weak.

WoC are better then hordes, easily. Hordes were a pretty weak army.

Makaber
17-04-2009, 10:40
I think people are making the WoC sound duller than it is, because they're not using a lot of the new stuff, because it's "bad". However, I suspect a lot of the new additions are vastly underrated. For example, I've used small units of Witch Elves to great effect in the past, and I don't see why Forsaken shouldn't be able to do the same job. And people are constantly bemoaning the Chaos Lord and the lack of flyers, yet nobody seems to care for the Daemon Prince. However, the Daemon Prince is a stubborn flyer, which you have to be an idiot not to see the virtue of. I don't get the logic going "if it can't win a combat, it is useless", it makes me wonder what kind of games people around here are playing.

So yeah, if you take nothing but knights and plow straight into the enemys front, then I guess they're a boring army. If you aren't content with being dragged along with the common consensus of a bunch of guys on the internet, and dare to try some new stuff, they can be fun.

Lord Khabal
17-04-2009, 10:50
Well the problem with the "new" stuff is that its not underrated, its overpriced! Especially the forsaken!!! 18 pts!! a witch elf costs 10!!! that is almost half! And even then witch elves arent that top of a choice...

Kornath
17-04-2009, 10:59
I'm a relatively new player and in no way as hardcore as W0lf, EvC and the rest of the insanely professional army generals. I know there are certain points which makes them weaker or too expensive and so on...

But I like playing with them anyways! Great core units, can deal insane damage if they hit anything and the Khorne Knights are insanely dangerous if not taken care off. I play in a non hardcore environment and so far I've lost once or twice out of over 10 battles, and that is without abusing my list.

There is a lot of negative opinions about them, mostly from the hardcore ones (And who might they be?) but it's a fun army to play with although you need to have some patience with your Movement 4 warriors >_>

Kornath

Von Wibble
17-04-2009, 11:22
I've never understood comlpaining about Chaos being 1 dimenional. They have always been that! The addition of the beasts and daemons lists to the WOC list just provides you with more units that charge headlong towards the enemy in a different way (or sidelong, or more cunningly...). You still only really participate in 3 phases of the game (2 if you're Khorne), 1 of which is pure dice rolling.

The only real difference is a variety in types of unit (why not do that yourself with counts as rules), and the addition of flyers and skirmishers. Spawn fill in teh role of skirmishers quite well, and the Daemon Prince as Makaber points out, flies. As does a manticore rider.

If chaos were re-amalgamated, units would have to be weakened to compensate for the sheer amount of choice, in the same way that if the high elf and empire books were combined the list would be brutal. The result was the underpowered Hordes book, with toothless daemons for example. Balancing such a book is far more difficult, and, lets be honest, balancing army lists is not GWs strength (unless any of you think TK have a chance vs VC? Ogres vs Wood elves?).

If Forsaken were a valid choice (eg cost 14 pts each, move through terrain, unit size 5-12 makes for a more versatile unit), chaos knights were weakened, gifts were improved and include some weapons, EOTG were more interesting (with challenge rules also clarified, and a chance of affecting spawn and forsaken at any given time), and Gateway was made so 11+ is S10 you would have a list that was plenty interesting enough. The new stuff hasn't been implemented quite well enough, but the idea of the split is sound imo.

Makaber
17-04-2009, 11:43
Well the problem with the "new" stuff is that its not underrated, its overpriced! Especially the forsaken!!! 18 pts!! a witch elf costs 10!!! that is almost half! And even then witch elves arent that top of a choice...

This was Witch Elves in the last book, which were a tad more expensive. Also, of course, Forsaken are quite a lot better. Move 6 goes a long way (pun not intended) for such an offensive unit, and they're a lot more resilient with Toughness 6 and heavy armour.

Call me crazy, but I see a lot of potential in Forsaken. A unit of 10 is 180 points, which is comparable to a unit of 4 Minotaurs. The Forsaken are a bit more resilient; they handle damage a bit differently, Minotaurs being better at absorbing melee damage, while Forsaken can handle ranged damage better, but have a little armour. They have the same speed. If you run the Forsaken 5 wide, they have about the same number of average attacks as a unit of Minotaurs with additional hand weapons; 15 vs. 16.

However, the Forsaken has a much smaller frontage, which I feel is their saving grace. Move 6 is very good, but a unit of 4 monsters is just too wide to be able to flank properly; it's very unwieldy to wheel 160mm of frontage. The Forsaken, however, are a lot more manageable with their 100mm. And this is coming form a guy who's played with Minotaurs a lot. And, of course, I like the random attacks, but I guess that's a matter of taste.

Oh, and the Daemon Prince. I think a lot of people look at it, compare it directly to the Chaos Lord, and look at what they don't get for the 90 points they pay extra. In a package deal such as a Daemon Prince, I think it's a lot more relevant to look at what you actually get, and then try to build your tactics around that. So, what do you lose? Ld9 (which is a big deal), and Chaos Armour (which isn't such a big deal because you get a nifty Ward). What do you get? An additional Wound (practical but not overly so), stubborn (role-defining, and worth a lot of points), flying (easily worth 25 points at least), and terror (which is normally priced to what, 50 points?). So I don't think it's overpriced, it's just locked in it's own little niche. Of course, it will be overpriced once people starts to pile magic levels onto it, which I don't think is a good idea.

Lord Khabal
17-04-2009, 11:53
18 pts with only 1 wound and 5+AS? I still believe thay are too fragile VS magic/shooting, and any role they were supose to do ogres do it better. thats my opinion anyway...
I play WOC but I do feel that the army IN ORDER TO BE COMPETITIVE is very limited. That is all.

Godgolden
17-04-2009, 12:07
Everybody agrees forsaken are really.. really bad, just like everybody agrees Daemon army book is OVPRD.

If your not going to a tournament you can have some genuinly interesting mixes and have buckets of fun but WOC are exactly what all books should be, or near enough anyway.

They are very very playable and to be honest Hordes pales in comparison, because everything in hordes was weak/expensive so it didnt matter if you chose one unit over another.

Heavy warrior builds (my fav) are weak only against big gribblys like lords and dragons, bloodthirsters and kholec. They charge in, you accept/issue challenge, they overkill and because you dont have many ranks you roll... and break.

But against aything else, ive been charged by 2 units of 5 khorne knights into my 12 man warrior unit and won, simply because of the characters in the unit with STR 7 (who people ignore with buckets of dice), literily everything else bounces off their armour like a soft breeze its.. fun.

Tournys 'force' people to go trolls, magic or knights but they are loosing out on diversity.

Makaber
17-04-2009, 12:21
Everybody agrees forsaken are really.. really bad, just like everybody agrees Daemon army book is OVPRD.

Yes, everybody agrees, but how many have actually extensivly tested Forsaken? I remember when the Vampire book came out and nobody gave Wraiths a second thought.

I don't agree Forsaken are bad. My opinion on Forsaken is at current neutral. I will make a unit of Forsaken, and I will try them extensivly, because I think they have some merit. Once I've done that, I'll have formed an opinion about them, and I'll be the King of the Internet because I'll know something!

T10
17-04-2009, 12:36
I don't agree Forsaken are bad. My opinion on Forsaken is at current neutral. I will make a unit of Forsaken, and I will try them extensivly, because I think they have some merit. Once I've done that, I'll have formed an opinion about them, and I'll be the King of the Internet because I'll know something!

And knowing is half the battle!

-T10

Oguleth
17-04-2009, 12:55
In some ways I like the book better than the HoC book - some units like Warriors that were hopelessly bad before got better, I like having marked Marauders around, and marked Ogres and so on too for that matter.

The fighty characters of all kinds just got expensive and not really much fun you can do with them gear and ruleswise. Especially the Prince.

The magic is wicked, but it does feel a bit weird that the rest of your army ends up hoping your wizards will be the gloryhogs and help them out to just not be blasted away at the get go by the enemy. So character choosing ends up being a bit dull unless your opponents take "soft" choices themselves.

Gameplaywise it's a somewhat onesided army in the same way that for example wood elves and dwarves are - they do one thing well, and cant deal with a lot of tactics very well, and have to resort to Gateway or other boring choices to get out of some troubles, like against flying gribblies, combat evasive armies and the like.


On the Forsaken debate, I find they compete against Ogres and khorne Marauder Horsemen. One equals two forsaken, is more resilient against against everything (same T, same Armor, but one more wound total) and has the average number of forsaken attacks. Granted, no frenzy, but more control thus (and can always upgrade it). Compared to Marauder Horsemen they can last longer with the same efficiency in close combat compared to just being charging shock troops, so a small unit of say 6-7 would cost about the same as a Khornate Marauder Horse unit, except obviously taking up a special instead of a core slot, so might be icky there. Not sure I'd call em utter crap, but compared to other choices in the book itself and other books for that matter it hardly seems much of a point to take em. Now if they actually had t6 like Makaber's post says :p

Makaber
17-04-2009, 13:21
Now if they actually had t6 like Makaber's post says :p

Ah, a girl can dream ...

Briohmar
17-04-2009, 15:07
I played Hoardes almost exclusively for 6 years. I did most everything wrong, at least according to all the literature of the day. I used Chosen Warriors, I played exclusively Slaanesh, I only ever had 7 casting dice and 5 dispel dice; I won three tournaments, and took several other titles, including a couple of best armies, and best painteds, and sportsmanships, etc. With Warriors, you can see below, I am trying to get the hang of certain things. Not having the Soporific Musk ability on the Rapturous Standard hurt in a couple of games. So many armies being ASF hurt in a lot of ways. Slaanesh Magic being useless against Tomb Kings, VC, Daemons and most other Chaos Armies, etc. has significantly effected my game play.

Basically, I have failed to evolve at this point. Its not the fault of the Army Book. Its my fault for limiting myself. I have failed to realize that the loss of Furies and Mounted Daemonettes affects my ability to speed through the battlefield. I have failed to adapt to a slightly slower army. I have failed to build a list better suited to the evolving battlefield, I have failed to increase my magical capability to compensate for the loss of Movement 20 skirmishers and fast cav.

Basically, I am saying this because the reality is, the WOC book is the stronger book, it is the more playable book, and it is quite possibly the better book all around, but because I have maintained my personal bias based on how I think a Chaos army should be, I have not taken full advantage of the new.

Kerill
17-04-2009, 18:33
Everybody agrees forsaken are really.. really bad, just like everybody agrees Daemon army book is OVPRD.



I don't agree, found them useful so far, they perform exactly the role I want them to (check out the bat reps in my sig to see the tests so far).

Are they the greatest missed opportunity in the book though? They are indeed.

@Von wibble, whilst they were always a h-t-h/magic army, they used to have an awful lot more variety in playstyle nd synergy between the movement,h-t-h and magic aspects.

Finnigan2004
17-04-2009, 22:12
And knowing is half the battle!

-T10

The other 75% is mostly luck.

Von Wibble
18-04-2009, 11:08
@Von wibble, whilst they were always a h-t-h/magic army, they used to have an awful lot more variety in playstyle nd synergy between the movement,h-t-h and magic aspects.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by that but here's my best guess.

I'm not sure you can claim any change in synergy between movement and hth. My guess is that you mean that chaos warriors are slow- they've always been M4 and still have hound, spawn and marauder horsement to protect flanks and the like. Beast herds are a huge loss in this respect as are fliers, but as I've already said spawn can fill the role of the former and daemon prince the latter. And you gained a war machine and missile cavalry.

Synergy between movement and magic - its called titillating delusions and is the most stupidly overpowered spell in the game. Its so overpowered they had to make some armies immune to it, otherwise it would be an "I win" button- its basically a free flank charge for your knights. The frenzy spell in that lore is also extremely potent, as hounds baiting an enemy unit away from the fray whilst causing hits no said unit at the same time will always cause the opponent a major headache. Lore of shadow also has movement potential, same as always.

Synergy between magic and hand to hand - chaos sorcerors have great saving throw and are good in combat. You lost the tzeentch spell boosting combat ability so certainly tzeentch lose out here, but otoh slaanesh and nurgle have gained.

Don't get me wrong, I agree chaos have lost something overall - but only because the newer content of the book has not been implemented as well as the existing framework.

W0lf
18-04-2009, 11:14
Yes delusions is the best spell in the game.

My vampires are soo afraid that i genuinly feel bad for you when you have 6-10 lvls of slaaneshi magic.

Kerill
18-04-2009, 13:25
I'm not entirely certain what you mean by that but here's my best guess.

I'm not sure you can claim any change in synergy between movement and hth. My guess is that you mean that chaos warriors are slow- they've always been M4 and still have hound, spawn and marauder horsement to protect flanks and the like. Beast herds are a huge loss in this respect as are fliers, but as I've already said spawn can fill the role of the former and daemon prince the latter. And you gained a war machine and missile cavalry.

Synergy between movement and magic - its called titillating delusions and is the most stupidly overpowered spell in the game. Its so overpowered they had to make some armies immune to it, otherwise it would be an "I win" button- its basically a free flank charge for your knights.

So you need a level 4 caster with spell familiar in order to get the synergy?

What was lost in terms of magic/army synergy:

Orange Fire
Yellow fire
Wolf Hunts
Beast Cowers
Staff of Darkoth
Indigo Fire
Bears anger
Enrapturing spasms

What stayed the same: titillating delusions

What is new: 4+ regen

Then add in the fact that before you had access to three lores that gave 2 or 3 spells that worked with the army, some guranteed,so you could actually build a strategy around it rather than just hoping your level 2 rolls that single spell. (Or take a lord caster with spell familiar to get one).
Magic now is far more powerful than before (even without the crutch of change), no doubt about it, but no longer requires though to work.

As for sorcerors, you do remember how the old mark of Tzeentch worked yes?

And a sorceror is not appreciably better in combat (probably worse) than a shaman with chaos armour and a staff.

No doubt the army is stronger, but it IS far more one dimensional than before, no doubt about it.

A few other things:
Marauder horsemen always had missile options (albeit cheaper now)

Spawn do not compare to herds for protecting flanks and certainly can't protect you from being march blocked by fliers like herds could (due to moving in the compulsory moves phase). Oh and spawn no longer get a flame templat or 3D6 move.

Hellcannon is something I personally hate and see as deeply unfluffy but that is neither here nor there.

Daemon Prince was also an option in hordes, and had a variety of options for its use, not just level 4 with tendrils like now. Was also Ld9. There was also the exalted daemon option. Nothing new here mate.

WOC stronger by far than HOC, but simply not what it used to be in terms of playstyle. Powerful isn't the only requirement for an army. Chaos has never been this limited in terms of playstyle. I'm over enough of my disappointment to play my favourite army again, but its still the worst job of gutting the interest and fluff from an army book I've seen in 20 years of playing warhammer.

BenTheRat
18-04-2009, 16:34
While I love the new book, and it actually made my army stronger, there are many things missing.

1. Is the ability to build an army to face up to heavy magic, without taking heavy magic itself.

2. I do think it made slaanesh armies much more playable.

3. I think the 3 lores have way too many spells that are useless vs ItP troops, and they are out there in force.

4. I do think a sorcerer is better in combat than the shaman. You gave him 35 points in combat magic items. If I did the same to a sorcerer mounted on chaos steed, I'd kick his butt every time. ;)

Overall, still very pleased with the list. I think it has what it needs to take on all comers. But you really have to build a balanced list with them I think. Some magic, some hitty, etc...

Von Wibble
18-04-2009, 18:20
So you need a level 4 caster with spell familiar in order to get the synergy?

Better than not getting it at all. Chaos magic that had such synergy was too good before.

What was lost in terms of magic/army synergy:

Orange Fire
Yellow fire

I mentioned this. I do actually agree that Tzeentch magic needs something more. Wolf Hunts
Beast Cowers
Staff of Darkoth

All available only after the beasts got a book and not in hordes of chaos. If you managed before you can manage again.

Indigo Fire

Overpowered. Removing this was a good thing.
Bears anger

Not available in hordes, only beasts.
Enrapturing spasms

Overpowered. Good riddance.
What stayed the same: titillating delusions

What is new: 4+ regen

Then add in the fact that before you had access to three lores that gave 2 or 3 spells that worked with the army, some guranteed,so you could actually build a strategy around it rather than just hoping your level 2 rolls that single spell. (Or take a lord caster with spell familiar to get one).

If you choose a lore with decent spells, the chances of getting no decent spells even without spell familiar are negligable. Other armies have to live with the same problem - only high elves, lizardmen, tomb kings and vampires don't, and high elves have to take a magic item for this effect too. And all 4 should be better at magic than chaos unless Tzeentch heavy - and yes, Tzeentch should therefore have more.

Magic now is far more powerful than before (even without the crutch of change), no doubt about it, but no longer requires though to work.

??? It is more powerful. Don't understand the second part of the sentence.
As for sorcerors, you do remember how the old mark of Tzeentch worked yes?

Yes. Which is why I mentinoed it in my own response before. I said Nurgle and Slaanesh had improved. And again I mentioned synergy had been nerfed there. I agree with you

And a sorceror is not appreciably better in combat (probably worse) than a shaman with chaos armour and a staff.

Not available to hordes of chaos only, and using a magic item thus 0-1 choice. A sorceror with the 2S8 hits item is better than the bray shaman.

No doubt the army is stronger, but it IS far more one dimensional than before, no doubt about it.

It is more one dimensional than the 3 books put together. I don't think its necessarily more 1 dimensional than just the old hordes book. Also putting empire and high elf books together would add more flavour. And such an army book would be far less one dimensional than combining all 3 chaos lists, as it would provide an army that could do anything. Or adding twice as many units to the high elf book if combining 2 army books seems nonsensical. Doesn't mean it should happen though.

A few other things:
Marauder horsemen always had missile options (albeit cheaper now)

I wasn't aware of that. Shows how often they are used.

Spawn do not compare to herds for protecting flanks and certainly can't protect you from being march blocked by fliers like herds could (due to moving in the compulsory moves phase). Oh and spawn no longer get a flame templat or 3D6 move.

Granted, spawn aren't as good in this role. Personally I think forsaken should have had this role when made as a unit and lost frenzy and gained skirmish for example.

Hellcannon is something I personally hate and see as deeply unfluffy but that is neither here nor there.

But it does add a shooting component to the list. I have the same feeling about the empire steam tank, but I'm not going to deny it exists.

Daemon Prince was also an option in hordes, and had a variety of options for its use, not just level 4 with tendrils like now. Was also Ld9. There was also the exalted daemon option. Nothing new here mate.

I never claimed it was. But several chaos players complain about no flyers available. they are wrong. The daemon prince provides a flying option at under 400pts. I agree that the daemonic gifts were underdeveloped and am unsure about the daemon princes cost, but this is an example of where the new items need better implementation. Any complaint about the daemon prince goes to how powerful it is, which I thought was not the point of the thread. The fact is you can't claim flyers are gone when they aren't.

WOC stronger by far than HOC, but simply not what it used to be in terms of playstyle. Powerful isn't the only requirement for an army. Chaos has never been this limited in terms of playstyle. I'm over enough of my disappointment to play my favourite army again, but its still the worst job of gutting the interest and fluff from an army book I've seen in 20 years of playing warhammer.

I don't claim that strength of the army is an issue. I am answering to the point that chaos have lost dimensionality (if such a word exists) by losing beasts (they didn't really lose daemons so much in that only furies and maybe screamers and flamers ever seemed to be used) But the fact is, the hordes of chaos book was around for a while without them, and managed.

I don't think the army is perfect by a long shot. But seperating the books as I have mentioned makes balancing things far easier (and with GWs record this is a good thing), and allows more originality when designing each part of the chaos triumvirate. Its just a shame this did not realise its full potential thus far.

Imagine if the list did have harpies or furies in as well. Add in beast herds, with updated rules to stop chariots owning them. Throw in access to all the core and special choices in the daemon list plus daemon heralds. The result? A horrible excuse of a list. Thinking about it another way, by advocating the combining of the 3 chaos back into 1 list, you are effectively saying DOC should be allowed access to more units.

Out of interest, if you were to specifically make just a small amount of additions, changes to existing units, what would you do?

Dexter099
18-04-2009, 18:35
While I love the new book, and it actually made my army stronger, there are many things missing.

1. Is the ability to build an army to face up to heavy magic, without taking heavy magic itself.

2. I do think it made slaanesh armies much more playable.

3. I think the 3 lores have way too many spells that are useless vs ItP troops, and they are out there in force.

4. I do think a sorcerer is better in combat than the shaman. You gave him 35 points in combat magic items. If I did the same to a sorcerer mounted on chaos steed, I'd kick his butt every time. ;)

Overall, still very pleased with the list. I think it has what it needs to take on all comers. But you really have to build a balanced list with them I think. Some magic, some hitty, etc...

1) I take a scroll caddie everytime, and I am fine.

2) Agreed

3) Just 3 spells in the Slaanesh lore.

4)Agreed

I don't like separating the armies at all, but I've gotten over that, and the '3 types of units' list that WoC has brought us.

Shimmergloom
18-04-2009, 18:35
I don't think the army is perfect by a long shot. But seperating the books as I have mentioned makes balancing things far easier (

yes, doc and boc are perfectly balanced now.

Tae
19-04-2009, 01:24
3) Just 3 spells in the Slaanesh lore.

And Trason of Tzeentch.

Dexter099
19-04-2009, 02:23
And Trason of Tzeentch.

Treason works against ITP units. It doesn't force the affected unit to make a panic, fear, or terror check, it just kills guys depending on their leadership roll.

ITP only allows you to ignore Panic, Fear or Terror checks.

Kill-Freedom
19-04-2009, 09:26
I find you dont get very much choice with them.....

Kerill
19-04-2009, 11:31
Shaman only needed chaos armour from magic items, braystaff was equipment, and had the option of S5 or 2+ save but that's besides the point.

Changes to WOC: recombine chaos would be the best one from both a fluff and gameplay persepective in future. That is simply not possible atm though due to the grossly overpowered nature of the daemon list. Allowing them to mix with beasts would solve the issues too.

In the current split chaos, I'd change the following:
1) Bring back the mark limitations for both characters and units.
2) Boost the chaos lord to Ld10, exalted sorceror and daemon prince to Ld9 (so infantry can function better).
3) Remove the banner of the gods or just have is as 55 points and allows you to freely mix marks (for battles with a combined chaos host if you really like them.
4) Forsaken are skirmishers or introduce skirmished marauders as core.
5) Maybe introduce a flier in the special section (where it would compete with the good stuff)
6) Allow sorcerors/exlted sorcerors/unmarked daemon princes access to fire, death, shadow, metal and beasts so there are other viable options
7) Change the current WOC lores:
Tzeentch-
i) gateway is 13+ to cast and there is no autokill possibility.
ii) Call to glory gives +3 attacks, RIP, 12" range to a character, 7+
iii) Balesful transmogrification changes to yellow fire, 7+ to cast
Nurgle-
i) Buboes becomes a 6+ spell
ii) Plague squall causes S2 hits
Slaanesh-
i) Lash is 6+ and causes D6 S4 hits+march effect
ii) Hysterical frenzy can be cast on ITP units
8) Mark of khorne for characters costs an extra 20 points and gives 1DD
9) Warshrine becomes US5 OR can join units
10) Shaggoth is stubborn, costs the same
11) Marks for spawn all cost 15 points flat. Tzeentch spawn gets S3 breath weapon like before
12) Introduce a 30 point 5+ ward save item.
13) Chaos knights cost 45 points
14) Blood of Tzeentch is a chaos gift, 45 points, makes the owner a level 1 wizard (can't be used by sorcerors or daemon princes)
15) I'd overhaul the gift section (neither here nor there) and add the following gifts:
i) Axe of Khorne, 25 points, killing blow (DP only)
ii) Daemonic armour, 20 points, 3+ armour save (DP only)
iii) Daemonblade, 50 points, no armour saves.
16) Chosen command group costs the same as warrior command group.

I think these changes would be balanced, would make all mono-god armies work well, but slightly differently. Some things get better, overpowered stuff gets neutered, new units added but no longer mixing and matching marks in the army so that every infantry and mounted marauder unit is slaanesh, knights are khorne etc.

More synergy between magic and the army, slaanesh magic made more viable. against ITP armies. Buboes slightly neutered and plague squall improved so its actually worth using, especially in a nurgle list.

Would also make a pure Khorne list viable, and make the DP useful as more than just a gateway battery (and gateway would no longer be as bad).

Warshrines would have a tactical role on the battlefield beyond random buffs and wouldn't need sthe banner of the gods to be viable.

@Dexter, Treason specifically does not work on ITP units, you may be getting confused with baleful transmogrification.

Von Wibble
19-04-2009, 13:05
yes, doc and boc are perfectly balanced now.

Which proves my point! Imagine if GW had to balance all 3 combined. If 1 army is a struggle for them then 3 just couldn't happen.

Kerill- Apart from a few changes I completely agree with your list. It is pretty much exactly what I think chaos should get - though I would want EOTG to feature more - spawn should rolll on the table each turn as should forsaken. I presume magic items specific to a god would be for followers of that god only?

In fact the only ones I don't like are 1) hysterical frenzy, already an amazing spell against foes for whom it works, getting better. Making an enemy unit frenzy without him even having the chance to shield from baiters? Far too good. Power level if GW had thought about this spell would be easily 10. and 2) Ld 10 chaos lords - considering teh reroll on panic and large amount of immunities it isn't necessary and removes a feature that for some time has been exclusive to elves and dwarfs. Chaos lord should have a points cut to about 165 but no more.

Sirroelivan
19-04-2009, 13:14
14) Blood of Tzeentch is a chaos gift, 45 points, makes the owner a level 1 wizard (can't be used by sorcerors or daemon princes)


I don't quite understand where you're going with this. The only character that would be able to take it would be a Chaos Lord then (Exalted doesn't have enough gifts allowance), and even then, the book of secrets is still a better choice.

Kerill
19-04-2009, 15:11
Which proves my point! Imagine if GW had to balance all 3 combined. If 1 army is a struggle for them then 3 just couldn't happen.

Kerill- Apart from a few changes I completely agree with your list. It is pretty much exactly what I think chaos should get - though I would want EOTG to feature more - spawn should rolll on the table each turn as should forsaken. I presume magic items specific to a god would be for followers of that god only?

In fact the only ones I don't like are 1) hysterical frenzy, already an amazing spell against foes for whom it works, getting better. Making an enemy unit frenzy without him even having the chance to shield from baiters? Far too good. Power level if GW had thought about this spell would be easily 10. and 2) Ld 10 chaos lords - considering teh reroll on panic and large amount of immunities it isn't necessary and removes a feature that for some time has been exclusive to elves and dwarfs. Chaos lord should have a points cut to about 165 but no more.

With mark restrictions most of those protections would disappear (only an army led by a slaanesh lord would have the slaaneshi immunities). Hysterical frenzy change would make a slaanesh army viable against daemons, VC and TK (and DE to some extent).

Chaos had Ld9 for base warriors for a long time, Ld10 for the lord is needed IMO, to make an infantry line work and to make him worthwhile. And in the fluff chaos warriors are more on a par with elves in terms of bravery, certainly more than your average human.

@Sirrovelian, it would bring back the tzeentch casty lord and this gift would still allow them to take arcane items AND the book of secrets if need be. Also book of secrets doesn't generate dispel dice and DD are one thing chaos needs, especially if you move away from lord caster with nurgle or slaanesh armies.

BenTheRat
19-04-2009, 16:31
1) I take a scroll caddie everytime, and I am fine.

3) Just 3 spells in the Slaanesh lore.


1. Ok, not sure where you play. I tried 2 Lvl 1's, a scroll caddy and a puppet guy. And got hammered in magic all day long with daemon spells that made my stats 1, and my units stupid.
I've now upped to a Lvl 4 and lvl 2 and do much better.

3. Yea, but that is half the lore. I run my Lvl 4 as Tzn, to have a flaming cheap default spell, a #6 spell that scares the crap out of deathstar armies, that I almost never cast. And more importantly Pandemonium.
(and the Tzn #4 Treason, does not work on ItP units either).

I run my Lvl 2 unmarked. I really, really wanted to make him slaanesh and put him on a steed. But when half the spells are useless vs ItP armies and the default spell, pretty much sucks. I just run him with Lore of Fire or Death.

I love the slaanesh spells when facing armies with psych, but lately, the number of VC and DoC I run into are over half my battles. In my last 14 battles, 9 were vs ItP armies. (4 Daemon, 4 VC, 1 TK, 1 O&G, 1 DE, 1 Dwarf, 1 Brett, 1 Empire). So almost 2/3rds.

Dexter099
19-04-2009, 17:11
1. Ok, not sure where you play. I tried 2 Lvl 1's, a scroll caddy and a puppet guy. And got hammered in magic all day long with daemon spells that made my stats 1, and my units stupid.
I've now upped to a Lvl 4 and lvl 2 and do much better.

3. Yea, but that is half the lore. I run my Lvl 4 as Tzn, to have a flaming cheap default spell, a #6 spell that scares the crap out of deathstar armies, that I almost never cast. And more importantly Pandemonium.
(and the Tzn #4 Treason, does not work on ItP units either).

I run my Lvl 2 unmarked. I really, really wanted to make him slaanesh and put him on a steed. But when half the spells are useless vs ItP armies and the default spell, pretty much sucks. I just run him with Lore of Fire or Death.

I love the slaanesh spells when facing armies with psych, but lately, the number of VC and DoC I run into are over half my battles. In my last 14 battles, 9 were vs ItP armies. (4 Daemon, 4 VC, 1 TK, 1 O&G, 1 DE, 1 Dwarf, 1 Brett, 1 Empire). So almost 2/3rds.

1) Only one level one is required. You're trying to save points here, not spend them all on magic defense. And yes, the Slaanesh lore does suck, but that's why you don't take it. And demon spells are nasty, but they are a very overpowered army. When not going heavy in the magic phase, you have to accept that you are going to lose troops to your enemy's magic. The question is, is buying more troops going to assure you dominance in the rest of the game? I personally have found that due to Chaos sorcerors being very expensive, it's usually worth it to stick with just one scroll caddy. You also have to learn to be very effective in the magic phase.

3) Yes, it is too bad that treason deosn't work on ItP armies. But the same armies ahve always been ItP. It's just that they're becoming more and more common because they're some of the newer armies, plus everyone wants to win.

If you're going to mount your sorceror, don't put him on a steed of slaanesh, put him on a chaos steed for the 2+ armor save. It's not like there are any other movement 9-10 units in your army that he needs to keep up with.

It's to bad that all anybody around you plays is VC and DoC, but I usually don't play magic heavy, since warrior blocks, warhounds, marauders, ogres, and chaos knights are too good for me to pass them up on something else.

Mireadur
19-04-2009, 20:33
Chaos lord should have a points cut to about 165 but no more.

165 would be too cheap. Just 20 points more than B.orcs or dwarves? 180-190.. Ok.

Tymell
20-04-2009, 00:35
3. Fluff was changed so that all the chaos gods are friends.. sigh.

Nope. It was simply that the idea being emphasised is that of tribes of Chaos worshipping all the gods where appropriate. Which is very in keeping with ancient/classical civilisations, including barbarian ones. Greeks, Norse, Egyptians, Germanic tribes, you name it. They did not deny the existence of gods, and gave worship at appropriate times. This makes perfect sense, especially in a world where the gods are very clearly real and influential.

Panzer MkIV
20-04-2009, 01:20
Nope. It was simply that the idea being emphasised is that of tribes of Chaos worshipping all the gods where appropriate. Which is very in keeping with ancient/classical civilisations, including barbarian ones. Greeks, Norse, Egyptians, Germanic tribes, you name it. They did not deny the existence of gods, and gave worship at appropriate times. This makes perfect sense, especially in a world where the gods are very clearly real and influential.

The problem is that the Greek, Scandinavian, Egyptian and Germanic panthenon of gods all had a hierachy (sp) in that they all had a god that ruled over the other gods like Odin, Thor, Ra and Zeus and that this rule was respected by the other gods (sans the odd "brawl").

The Chaos gods don't have this: they are always fighting and scheming amongst themselves to establish their rule over the other gods and think that they are superior in their way of doing things.

This also true for their followers (in the pre 7th edition books anyway): you have tribes which worship the 4 gods as a panthenon (chaos undivided) and revere them all in equal measure. Then you have tribes which revere one god exclusevly and they also hold on to the believe that their god is superior than the other gods. They want to prove themselves in the eye of their god so that they can be singled out for greatness (gaining immortality and becoming a deamon prince). The way they do this is seeking out worthy opponents on the field of battle and there isn't a greater price than the defeat of a tribe that worships another god, especialy one that is the complete opposite of their god's view -> Tzeentch (hope and change) vs Nurgle (despair and stagnation) for example. I've never heard of stories where followers of Neptune (sailors and fisherman) engage in open conflict with those who revere Zeus to establish who is the superior god.

Also once a Norse decides to embrace one god above all others it's a comitment for life without a chance to reverse things because to turn your back on your god and worship another will arouse the wrath of their god and evoke imminent spawndom.

Sorry for the ramblings :angel:

kdh88
20-04-2009, 03:25
Shaman only needed chaos armour from magic items, braystaff was equipment, and had the option of S5 or 2+ save but that's besides the point.

Changes to WOC: recombine chaos would be the best one from both a fluff and gameplay persepective in future. That is simply not possible atm though due to the grossly overpowered nature of the daemon list. Allowing them to mix with beasts would solve the issues too.

Yeah, DoC would need to be fixed before any recombining occurs. IMO, the split should have been hordes and beasts, with daemons in both.


In the current split chaos, I'd change the following:
1) Bring back the mark limitations for both characters and units.

This is a tough one IMO; a pure WoC that couldn't mix marks has very little variety. Maybe only prohibit enemy pairings (i.e., no Khorne units if your general is Slaaneshi, but everything else is fine), or only let unmarked/same marked units use the general's LD.


2) Boost the chaos lord to Ld10, exalted sorceror and daemon prince to Ld9 (so infantry can function better).

DP up to Ld 9 is a definite, but the Sorc is good as is. I think the problem with the lord lies with the importance of magic missiles for dealing with certain threats, and the cost doesnít help. On the subject of the DP, a magic item allowance would be good as well.


3) Remove the banner of the gods or just have is as 55 points and allows you to freely mix marks (for battles with a combined chaos host if you really like them.

This is only really necessary IMO if you up the Lord's and ES Ld. Maybe get rid of the Terror though.


4) Forsaken are skirmishers or introduce skirmished marauders as core.

They'd also need to lose Frenzy then (360 LoS+frenzy=fail), and probably give them ItP or cause fear, but yeah.


5) Maybe introduce a flier in the special section (where it would compete with the good stuff)

The only thing I can think of here is allowing Furies.


7) Change the current WOC lores:
Tzeentch-
i) gateway is 13+ to cast and there is no autokill possibility.

Need to define what happens when you get 11 or 12. Probably just cap the S at 10


ii) Call to glory gives +3 attacks, RIP, 12" range to a character, 7+

Hmm. I like the concept of the current spell, but it's way too hard to cast and is wonky rules-wise. Also, you probably need some US limit or no magic weapons clause, otherwise casting this on a tooled up Lord on a Dragon could be...excessive.


Nurgle-
i) Buboes becomes a 6+ spell

I'd go the other way with this and return the T test but make it a 4+ to cast.


8) Mark of khorne for characters costs an extra 20 points and gives 1DD

And/or give everything MR1. TBH, I've never really liked the way frenzy works (it should be more like Impetuous), but that's an issue for the BRB.


9) Warshrine becomes US5 OR can join units

Iím fairly apathetic about the warshrine. I would like to know what's up with the recent fetish for buff-mobiles though.


12) Introduce a 30 point 5+ ward save item.

I'm not sure why there isn't a 5+ ward common item, but yeah.


13) Chaos knights cost 45 points

I'd prefer that they go back to the core chaos knights (as in the old book, but with S4 and chaos armor) and special chosen knights (as the old book, but with magic attacks and a magic item allowance for the champ).


14) Blood of Tzeentch is a chaos gift, 45 points, makes the owner a level 1 wizard (can't be used by sorcerors or daemon princes)

Just allow Tzeentch marked chars to buy magic levels as a DP, limited to 2 for exalteds (they shouldnít get the +1 to cast though).


6) Allow sorcerors/exlted sorcerors/unmarked daemon princes access to fire, death, shadow, metal and beasts so there are other viable options
iii) Balesful transmogrification changes to yellow fire, 7+ to cast
ii) Plague squall causes S2 hits
Slaanesh-
i) Lash is 6+ and causes D6 S4 hits+march effect
ii) Hysterical frenzy can be cast on ITP units
10) Shaggoth is stubborn, costs the same
11) Marks for spawn all cost 15 points flat. Tzeentch spawn gets S3 breath weapon like before
16) Chosen command group costs the same as warrior command group.

Sure.


15) I'd overhaul the gift section (neither here nor there) and add the following gifts:
i) Axe of Khorne, 25 points, killing blow (DP only)
ii) Daemonic armour, 20 points, 3+ armour save (DP only)
iii) Daemonblade, 50 points, no armour saves.

I'd also add the Spellbreaker gift as an option for DPs and Khorne marked stuff, so they donít need to take scroll caddies.

Other assorted changes I'd like would be to give the regular marauders throwing weapon options and allowing marauder horsemen to take bows, although that would be fairly controversial. Some type of marauder chieftain character might be interesting as well


The problem is that the Greek, Scandinavian, Egyptian and Germanic panthenon of gods all had a hierachy (sp) in that they all had a god that ruled over the other gods like Odin, Thor, Ra and Zeus and that this rule was respected by the other gods (sans the odd "brawl").

Many of the pantheons did fight though; the Trojan War is a great example, where you have Ares and Athena engaging in more or less direct combat, Apollo and Artemis helping Hector, Hera distracting Zeus so Poseiden can aid the Greeks, and so on; note that this all going on even though Zeus has specifically told them not to interfere. You've also got Athena vs. Poseiden over Odysseus and Zeus vs. Hera over his dalliances. In Egyptian and Norse myth, meanwhile, the gods are actually killing each other off (Set-Osiris, Horus-Set, Loki-Baldr).



This also true for their followers (in the pre 7th edition books anyway): you have tribes which worship the 4 gods as a panthenon (chaos undivided) and revere them all in equal measure. Then you have tribes which revere one god exclusevly and they also hold on to the believe that their god is superior than the other gods. They want to prove themselves in the eye of their god so that they can be singled out for greatness (gaining immortality and becoming a deamon prince). The way they do this is seeking out worthy opponents on the field of battle and there isn't a greater price than the defeat of a tribe that worships another god, especialy one that is the complete opposite of their god's view -> Tzeentch (hope and change) vs Nurgle (despair and stagnation) for example.").

We know what the chaos gods personify, but their followers don't. The marauder tribes probably worship Nurgle as a deity of comfort in times of hardship and Tzeentch to be a trickster deity of magic, and those things aren't really incompatiple with each other.


I've never heard of stories where followers of Neptune (sailors and fisherman) engage in open conflict with those who revere Zeus to establish who is the superior god.

Also once a Norse decides to embrace one god above all others it's a comitment for life without a chance to reverse things because to turn your back on your god and worship another will arouse the wrath of their god and evoke imminent spawndom.

Sorry for the ramblings :angel:

This is true, but I think it's a strech to say followers of different gods would never fight against a common enemy, which is why I'd prefer "soft" restrictions (like restricting who can use the general's leadership and where characters can go) as opposed to "hard" ones (just saying "no mixing marks ever").

Tymell
20-04-2009, 09:29
The problem is that the Greek, Scandinavian, Egyptian and Germanic panthenon of gods all had a hierachy (sp) in that they all had a god that ruled over the other gods like Odin, Thor, Ra and Zeus and that this rule was respected by the other gods (sans the odd "brawl").

The Chaos gods don't have this: they are always fighting and scheming amongst themselves to establish their rule over the other gods and think that they are superior in their way of doing things.

This also true for their followers (in the pre 7th edition books anyway): you have tribes which worship the 4 gods as a panthenon (chaos undivided) and revere them all in equal measure. Then you have tribes which revere one god exclusevly and they also hold on to the believe that their god is superior than the other gods. They want to prove themselves in the eye of their god so that they can be singled out for greatness (gaining immortality and becoming a deamon prince). The way they do this is seeking out worthy opponents on the field of battle and there isn't a greater price than the defeat of a tribe that worships another god, especialy one that is the complete opposite of their god's view -> Tzeentch (hope and change) vs Nurgle (despair and stagnation) for example. I've never heard of stories where followers of Neptune (sailors and fisherman) engage in open conflict with those who revere Zeus to establish who is the superior god.

Also once a Norse decides to embrace one god above all others it's a comitment for life without a chance to reverse things because to turn your back on your god and worship another will arouse the wrath of their god and evoke imminent spawndom.

Sorry for the ramblings :angel:

All true, certainly, and it's not a 100% comparison. I'm just making the point that it's in keeping for Chaos worshippers to worship the appropriate god at the appropriate time. They fight and bicker more than ancient world gods, but not by that much, it must be said. Trojan War anyone? ;) As kdh says, the ancient pantheons did more than their share of fighting.

The difference with ancient world gods is they tended to be more human, and so bicker in a more human way (e.g. over infidelities) rather than purely representing emotions/concepts. But still, I think the picture painted in the current is perfectly believable and in keeping with the existing background. It doesn't deny their conflicts, it just doesn't emphasise that point as much as other books.

Azethel
25-04-2009, 18:05
As someone who has recently got back into the hobby due to the new book i thought I would put in my 2 cents.

Pros for the new book

-new knight and marauder plasitcs are awesome
-with the BOC book coming out sometime in the near future we will get new dragon ogres and a new chariot/warshrine kit is rumoured to be in the works
-the list is stronger overal; marked marauders and ogres, warriors/knights buffed
-a couple of new units that give cool modelling options (warshrine, forsaken)
- hellcannon gives a (albeit short) shooting phase

Cons
-lost a lot of variety in unit choices
-all special choices seem to fill a similar role and chaos knights do it best
-just missed the mark with a number of units ie. forsaken, shaggoths, warshrine
-EOTGs gives minimal fluff but rarely any in game effects other than the annoying always challenge rule
-just an overall one dimentional feel which makes the list slgihtly less fun IMO than previous lists
-some lacklustre magic items mostly terrible gifts

My feelings on fixes that will never be seen

*Forsaken should be skirmished, no frenzy and slightly cheaper OR skirmishing marauders with throwing axes/spears should be an option
*Shaggoths should be stubborn
*Access to decent magic items for daemon prince
*daemonic riders would have been awesome option...basically rare 1-3, chaos warriors stats on daemonic mounts (eg. discs/juggs etc.) Would give the option of a flying unit.
*either as above or just put furies back in...make them rare even.