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View Full Version : What do you mean my army's theme is annoying???



Vet.Sister
17-04-2009, 02:34
Read the background for the Battle Sisters/Ecclesiarchy and one of the main themes is that they're martyrs. Yup, they don't run away and they'd rather die than fail.

So, the designer(s) came up with rules to represent this.
1) The invulnerable armor save
2) The wargear of "my-leadership-never-changes"
Between these two things, the designer did his best to represent Martyrdom. IE Battle Sisters never run away and only die after taking an obscene amount of /gun fire/CC wounds/etc.

3) Rending bullets
Lastly the designer gave the Battle Sisters a 'Divine Weapon' of sorts.

However, several ppl have posted that Battle Sisters are annoying to play against! More precisely the above three things are singled out as the most annoying stuff possible in an army!

Are these things annoying to the point where people don't want to play against Battle Sisters? Isn't that a bit small minded? Do these things really need to be abandoned for people to stop complaining? If so, why would people be interested playing an army that is basically IG in power armor without all the tanks? (which is what you'd have if GW dropped the faith powers entirely)

Thoughts?

Ertle
17-04-2009, 02:46
I haven't been playing 40k long but it could be the fact that sisters are a relatively rare army to encounter so people dont usually know what to expect. Also the amount of gunfire to take them down would eventually get frustrating seeing only one or two getting knocked down a turn would quickly get old fast.

self biased
17-04-2009, 02:57
i've only a single active witch hunters player in my club. he's a mediocre player, and will often rely on risky gambits that either work fabulously or fail epically. i've found that (playing as dark angels and green marines) if i concentrate on dogpiling a single unit, wiping it out and moving on to the next, doing my damndest to not engage more than two or three units with the rest of my army.

i might change my tune provided i run across someone who can play the hell out of the army.

Joewrightgm
17-04-2009, 03:14
Sisters are sort of (sort of) like Necrons, in that they can take an obscene amount of punishment for what they are.

Now, with Sisters, its a matter of Faith points, which are much like might points in Lord of the Rings: a form of 'legal cheating' if you will. This allows you to do ridiculous stuff within the bounds of the rules, IE the miracles that sisters supposedly are known for.

I personally like the way they did Faith points, because I'm watching my opponent's big casino faith point die as hard as he is. It involves some risk taking on the my part, but the faster I can make my opponent blow faith, the better off I am.

What does the above all mean? Simple: Your army's theme is annoying! :D

RichBlake
17-04-2009, 03:26
Those comments they are making is nothing to do with the theme, it's do do with the rules.

The theme you claim to be saying backs up the faith points is that they are martyrs. That's wrong. The Faith Points represents the fact they are holy. Only one rule in the codex represents the fact they are martyrs and thats the one that restores faithpoints to the pool when Faithful characters die.

I am starting to play with Sisters, after borrwing my mates, and it really is "legal cheating". Sisters are amazing due to faith points and being quite under costed compared to everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, if they complain that your army is good tell them to shove it. 10 Sisters in a rhino is the most common build but it isn't a "power build" the entire army is good. However don't kid yourself into thinking they are criticisng the "theme" or "background" of your army, it's the rules that represent it.

maelstrom66669
17-04-2009, 03:39
I wouldnt mind playing against ANY army, I've never actually seen a sisters army, but it would be cool to fight one since I never have.

And who is complaining about it? Since most players take the most annoying things possible, all I hear about my army(Chaos) is that I should get some Daemon princes with twin lash and obliterators.

Warforger
17-04-2009, 04:25
I've fought against a SoB army against a player I can trust to be known as long friends with a vet. GW employee.

That was about my last and first encounter with them, it wasn't anything impressive, of course, he was using Celestine, charged an Assault squad, then Celestine suffered two Instant Death hits from the Serges power fist, and since when Celestine dies your faith goes bye bye, I guess it really doesn't count (it was more of a desperado move, my BA were closing in). As for the shooting, that was my best example of how mobility and positioning is crucial for BA, SoB are a short ranged army, so I just sat outside of the range of rapid fire, melta's and flamers and then charged in with 18" range to swoop in.

Same was with my Baal Predator standing right outside the range of his Multi-Melta's pounding them with Heavy Bolters.

SoB are fine, they suffer from being a short ranged army, thus you can just out-range them if your a shooty army, or move away from there special weapons range if your a mobile army like Eldar or BA. Other armies like Horde or standard MEQ are either going to suck or be fine, since they would probably be forced to step into there dread rapid fire range in order to do some damage, but they usually have a unit up for the job.

Modernjaco
17-04-2009, 04:28
Martyrs?

"Patriots always talk of dying for their country but never of killing for their country."
-Bertrand Russell

Rioghan Murchadha
17-04-2009, 05:23
Read the background for the Battle Sisters/Ecclesiarchy and one of the main themes is that they're martyrs. Yup, they don't run away and they'd rather die than fail.

So, the designer(s) came up with rules to represent this.
1) The invulnerable armor save
2) The wargear of "my-leadership-never-changes"
Between these two things, the designer did his best to represent Martyrdom. IE Battle Sisters never run away and only die after taking an obscene amount of /gun fire/CC wounds/etc.

3) Rending bullets
Lastly the designer gave the Battle Sisters a 'Divine Weapon' of sorts.

However, several ppl have posted that Battle Sisters are annoying to play against! More precisely the above three things are singled out as the most annoying stuff possible in an army!

Are these things annoying to the point where people don't want to play against Battle Sisters? Isn't that a bit small minded? Do these things really need to be abandoned for people to stop complaining? If so, why would people be interested playing an army that is basically IG in power armor without all the tanks? (which is what you'd have if GW dropped the faith powers entirely)

Thoughts?

SoB are annoying for me largely because that's the primary army of the friend I play against the most. Not because of any of their rules. However, I will say this.

I was very upset when the new CSM book came out and turned thousand sons from a complete crap list into a single troop choice with AP3 bolters, but do you have any idea how annoying spirit of the martyr actually is? If they want to be martyrs so badly, why is spacejesus making them practically immune to death? IIRC martyrs are people who DIE for their cause, so bloody well lay down and die already! :p

sigur
17-04-2009, 05:39
In my experience, people don't get annoyed about the Book of Lucius so much. The invulnerable saves annoy them but they know that it can only be done so and so often. Never heard any complaints about the Ld. I mean, when was the last time you saw a Space Marine or anything really flee (unintended)?

I think that Ertle mentioned the main reason why people might say that SoB annoy them: They don't know them so it's a bit like the complaining about a new codex in 40k General really. People aren't really familiar with things, are surprised by an army's special rules, points costs, etc. so they get annoyed.






"Patriots always talk of dying for their country but never of killing for their country."
-Bertrand Russell

Nice quote. Not sure in how far this has much to do with the thread but a nice change from the stuff you occationally see in some people's signatures. ;)

Brucopeloso
17-04-2009, 09:24
I've played against WH and SoB a few times and I liked it!
Ok faith points and miracles might look a bit like legalized cheating but is not game breking or overpowered. Plus I like the background and I love the models and playing against a non MEQ force is always refreshing.

Hellebore
17-04-2009, 09:30
I think the expression 'legal cheating' is a little unfair and casts the army in a bad light. The word cheating is generally never used in a NICE way afterall.

To me it's no more cheating than a power weapon is cheating by letting the wielder ignore his opponent's armour save - something you can't do unless you have a power weapon.

The cost of a sister is a little wierd in comparison to a storm trooper, but the army is balanced against itself so I really don't see the problem with the rules they have. People just don't like it when they aren't facing space marines...

Hellebore

mughi3
17-04-2009, 09:41
The thing people need to rememeber sisters are basically gurdsman in power armor with marine shooting. aside from a single unit(exorcist) they are a short range shooting army.

Without faith points the entire force would literally not be viable to field. when your talking an entire army thats is almost all metal still thats a tough pill to swallow.

Yes i do think the hardest part people have is dealing with what they do not know. i took a tournament winning army (night lords themed) to the mat with my SOB and my list isn't very competative at all(i just threw in a few expensive units to bump up my points) with very few faithpoints for it's point level. the book of st lucius on a vetran sister superior standing next to a transport with a holy icon in CC with a demon prince does not a happy demon prince make. un-modifiable ld 10 FTW
:evilgrin:

Hypaspist
17-04-2009, 10:10
I play sisters (although not recently actually, in fact I havent given them enough 5th edition love at all) and I don't believe any of my opponenets hate my army, they might struggle against it, because believe it or not the nuns with guns 'are' good.

legalized cheating? no way. Faith is good, but I would put forward the theory (and having seen some people play their army rules incredibly wrong at the only tourney I have been to, for instance, outflanking landspeeders in a ravenwing army.. <which is wrong>) I suspect much of the bad vibe comes from (potentially) sisters players not using faith correctly to the absolute letter of the book, and their opponents not knowing the army well enough at all. I certainly know when I started playing them I read some acts of faith wrong and used them in response to being fired on, (technically wrong)

Example.
Spirit of the Martyr expressly states (don't have rulebook to hand for quote) that you must use the act of faith at the beginning of the phase, meaning that if several units are threatened, you need to (as the sisters player) make some tough decisions and make these before your enemy has declared his targets, and as an opponent the more tough decisions you force then the quicker you are either going to drain the faith pool, or initiate a potential mistake (depending on player skill level)

I don't believe that the girls deserve the hate and they aren't overpowered, and neither is faith legalized cheating, its another resource that the sisters of battle have which can be attacked just like any other resource, and as previously mentioned they work best at close range, (Exorcist aside)

Threeshades
17-04-2009, 10:32
I think the expression 'legal cheating' is a little unfair and casts the army in a bad light. The word cheating is generally never used in a NICE way afterall.

To me it's no more cheating than a power weapon is cheating by letting the wielder ignore his opponent's armour save - something you can't do unless you have a power weapon.

The cost of a sister is a little wierd in comparison to a storm trooper, but the army is balanced against itself so I really don't see the problem with the rules they have. People just don't like it when they aren't facing space marines...

Hellebore


I play sisters (although not recently actually, in fact I havent given them enough 5th edition love at all) and I don't believe any of my opponenets hate my army, they might struggle against it, because believe it or not the nuns with guns 'are' good.

legalized cheating? no way. Faith is good, but I would put forward the theory (and having seen some people play their army rules incredibly wrong at the only tourney I have been to, for instance, outflanking landspeeders in a ravenwing army.. <which is wrong>) I suspect much of the bad vibe comes from (potentially) sisters players not using faith correctly to the absolute letter of the book, and their opponents not knowing the army well enough at all. I certainly know when I started playing them I read some acts of faith wrong and used them in response to being fired on, (technically wrong)

Example.
Spirit of the Martyr expressly states (don't have rulebook to hand for quote) that you must use the act of faith at the beginning of the phase, meaning that if several units are threatened, you need to (as the sisters player) make some tough decisions and make these before your enemy has declared his targets, and as an opponent the more tough decisions you force then the quicker you are either going to drain the faith pool, or initiate a potential mistake (depending on player skill level)

I don't believe that the girls deserve the hate and they aren't overpowered, and neither is faith legalized cheating, its another resource that the sisters of battle have which can be attacked just like any other resource, and as previously mentioned they work best at close range, (Exorcist aside)

Agreed, since when are special rules legalized cheating? Do Necrons cheat because they can stand up again after being shot? Do guard cheat because they can fire 3 shots from their lasguns? Do orks cheat because they can fleet once a game?

The_Outsider
17-04-2009, 13:32
"BS! <insert rule/ability here> is annoying and broken because it changes the way I have to play to defeat your army! Which chipmunk thought it would be a good idea to give <insert unit here> <insert rule/ability here>!? No way should they get <insert rule/ability here> for that cost, it should cast at least another <insert stupidly high points cost here>!

Hell, look at <insert opposing army here> gets a worse version of <insert rule/ability here> and they pay much more! It is like GW is trying to screw <insert your army of choice here> or are showing mass favouritism to <insert army/unit with perceived overpowered rule/ability here>.

Goddamn GW <insert swearing here>"

mattschuur
17-04-2009, 13:48
A Space Marine Special Rule allows them to run away and if they get caught count as fearless in combat, auto rally without a roll and still fire their heavy weapons when they do. Not to mention rally when under 50%. They have a single special rule which breaks 4 other rules! Is this not also Legal Cheating?:angel:

Sisters aren't that bad, they can get a little annoying at times, but they are a short ranged army with limited anti-tank and T3 troops. Not to mention their dex is outdated with a number of units and equipment to costly or useless. The Faith Points make them competitive and separate them from every other army in the game.

matt schuur

Fixer
17-04-2009, 13:56
A Space Marine Special Rule allows them to run away and if they get caught count as fearless in combat, auto rally without a roll and still fire their heavy weapons when they do. Not to mention rally when under 50%. They have a single special rule which breaks 4 other rules! Is this not also Legal Cheating?:angel:


Not to mention it can be a pain in the ass. Two marine with bolters, gets assaulted in close combat by orks. Take ten wounds, one guy passess all 5, the other dies. Fails ld, falls back, gets caught, counts as fearless, saves another wound. His being in combat stops me shooting the Orks.

"You stupid brave invincible bastard! You were supposed to die!"

I think the big problem many folks have with Witchunter rules is that no-one actually knows them. I've only played against the army twice since they released them. When people start pulling invincibility and rending on units you see with a basic statline and expect to kill, it gets crazy.

"You can do what? That can't be right. Let me see the rules..."

TheFloatingHead
17-04-2009, 14:07
"BS! <insert rule/ability here> is annoying and broken because it changes the way I have to play to defeat your army! Which chipmunk thought it would be a good idea to give <insert unit here> <insert rule/ability here>!? No way should they get <insert rule/ability here> for that cost, it should cast at least another <insert stupidly high points cost here>!

Hell, look at <insert opposing army here> gets a worse version of <insert rule/ability here> and they pay much more! It is like GW is trying to screw <insert your army of choice here> or are showing mass favouritism to <insert army/unit with perceived overpowered rule/ability here>.

Goddamn GW <insert swearing here>"

You do realize that you have just completely figured out the Warseer Formula. Good work!:cool:

edward3h
17-04-2009, 14:07
I play Sisters, and I have a roughly 50% record with them at my club. Actually there are a couple of other Sisters players at the club and we don't find ourselves short of opponents.

Not all of your points are as good as they sound in a simple quote:


1) The invulnerable armor save
2) The wargear of "my-leadership-never-changes"
3) Rending bullets


1) I don't use Spirit of the Martyr, the invulnerable save power, very often. Firstly it's an 'over squad size' test, which means to have a reasonable chance of it working, you would use it on a squad with 6 or less models. Secondly it has to be used at the start of a shooting or assault phase, and I've found that when I use it my opponents will often simply use their high AP weapons against other targets. Thirdly it costs a faith point for that phase, and they are in short supply.

2) Yes, the Book of St. Lucius is pretty annoying. However it is only used in assault, which is not where Sisters want to be.

3) Divine Guidance is where I spend most of my faith points when fighting MEQs, and it can be nasty. But again it is not guaranteed to work. To use it with regular Sisters squads they have to be in close range to get maximum flamer and bolter hits, so they are likely to get assaulted if it doesn't work well enough.

My tips for fighting against the Sisters would be: either keep them at long range, or assault as soon as you can (depends on your army). If they use Spirit of the Martyr, concentrate small arms fire - T3 means they take lots of saves.

The_Outsider
17-04-2009, 14:30
2) Yes, the Book of St. Lucius is pretty annoying. However it is only used in assault, which is not where Sisters want to be.



The Book of st lucius works all the time and there are few SoB units you do want in assault.

Interestingly enough, any ability which causes LD tests and modifiers works against the book.

freddieyu
17-04-2009, 14:31
I have a sisters army too, and depending on how a future FAQ will say, they either got weaker or stronger with the new IG dex.....weaker soince some rules lawyers now say you cannot take certain elements as inducted units, stronger in the sense that the basic IG platoon is cheaper and has more options....

I say they got stronger, and I am happy for that!

Ixquic
17-04-2009, 14:35
I'm thinking of trying a list that pretty much replaces Rhinos and Exorcists with Valkyries by calling it a "Guard" army but then just using allied Witch Hunters for everything except for the transports and one other troops choice. It seems like a decent way to get them across the board and the Valkyries are less kill points and include weapons.

freddieyu
17-04-2009, 14:49
I'm thinking of trying a list that pretty much replaces Rhinos and Exorcists with Valkyries by calling it a "Guard" army but then just using allied Witch Hunters for everything except for the transports and one other troops choice. It seems like a decent way to get them across the board and the Valkyries are less kill points and include weapons.

I thought about that too..and you can paint the valkryie which transports the sisters in the same color as the gals and give it sisters icons..makes it more thematic....

Hicks
17-04-2009, 15:23
What I find annoying is that they have a power for everything. Usually when I play against them it's just a matter of when they will finally run out of Faith Points.

Rioghan Murchadha
17-04-2009, 15:35
My tips for fighting against the Sisters would be: either keep them at long range, or assault as soon as you can (depends on your army). If they use Spirit of the Martyr, concentrate small arms fire - T3 means they take lots of saves.

This would be a great idea unless you also play a short/medium ranged force that sucks in assault (Yes, I'm looking at you Thousand Sons). The ap3 on the bolters would make up for it IF cover saves weren't so prevalent.

Ixquic
17-04-2009, 15:51
What I find annoying is that they have a power for everything. Usually when I play against them it's just a matter of when they will finally run out of Faith Points.

Eh, at the end of the day they are expensive T3 models. Inv save doesn't really help when you are facing 5+ wounds from each salvo. I think a lot of people don't realize that in order to use the inv power it has to be declared at the very beginning of shooting phase which makes it a lot less potent. Typically it ends up getting used to keep Cannonesses alive.

Even if they get into their money range, if they whiff they are one counter charge away from getting wiped out.

Marshal Sinclair
17-04-2009, 16:43
This would be a great idea unless you also play a short/medium ranged force that sucks in assault (Yes, I'm looking at you Thousand Sons). The ap3 on the bolters would make up for it IF cover saves weren't so prevalent.

Sisters fight within 7" (flamer). If they aren't, you've already won. For a sisters army to be effective against MEQ they need to be DGing your units, which means both you and the sisters will be out in the open if possible, so you don't get cover saves from the AP1 bolter rounds. 10 Sisters will not kill an entire squad in a single round of shooting. Those 10 Sisters for 209 points will die to 3 or 4 Marines charging them.

Sisters win the game in turn two. If they fail to do this they are in for an uphill battle. We have quite a one trick pony army. Drive forward and fire smokes in turn one. Turn two deploy and decimate your army. 3 or 4 Faith Points on Battle Sisters, 2 on the Canoness, another 2 or 3 on the Seraphim, all on turn two means the Sisters player doesn't have a great deal left. At this point the Sisters player should have decimated your army, and only has some mopping up to do. If he hasn't, you've won.

Vet.Sister
17-04-2009, 17:36
Those comments they are making is nothing to do with the theme, it's do do with the rules. ... I am starting to play with Sisters, after borrwing my mates, and it really is "legal cheating". ... However don't kid yourself into thinking they are criticisng the "theme" or "background" of your army, it's the rules that represent it.

I've though about this a long time and I don't think there's any way to change the rules so that they are less annoying. And upping the point cost seems to be purely punitive!:(

Lord Cook
17-04-2009, 18:30
I would be delighted to play against any Witch Hunters army more frequently. I think the Faith point system is well designed and a lot of fun, even when I'm on the receiving end of it!

The_Outsider
17-04-2009, 18:32
If faith is annoying, is that annoying in the same way that 10 point dark lances are annoying? Or WBB? Or Waagh!? Or just about every special rule in the game?

Harold Zoid
17-04-2009, 19:22
Sisters are easy to defeat. Blow up rhinos and they are done with.
Invulnerable save doesn't work on big squads (10 or more on 2d6 is a really low chance) and doesn't help small squads because t3 means lots of saves.
As for being cheap - squad of space marines with a missile launcher, flamer and fist in a rhino costs as much as 10 sisters in rhino with heavy flamer, melta and eviscerator. Sisters are actually expensive for what thay can, sure, they cost 11 points each, but their transports, upgrades and wargear cost a lot.
The only thing worth complaining is exorcist, and even it is not really overpowered.

Somerandomidiot
17-04-2009, 21:02
Some people will complain about anything. Seriously. The sooner you realize that it has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them, the happier you'll be.

Too many people who play 40k have convinced themselves that they're the underdog, and every battle they face is an uphill fight against broken, cheesy things. Doesn't matter which army they're playing against. You just have the misfortune of playing with, talking to, or generally being around these kind of people, so stop trying to figure out what it is about your army and recognize the truth.

Marshal Sinclair
18-04-2009, 00:16
Sisters are easy to defeat. Blow up rhinos and they are done with.
Invulnerable save doesn't work on big squads (10 or more on 2d6 is a really low chance) and doesn't help small squads because t3 means lots of saves.
As for being cheap - squad of space marines with a missile launcher, flamer and fist in a rhino costs as much as 10 sisters in rhino with heavy flamer, melta and eviscerator. Sisters are actually expensive for what thay can, sure, they cost 11 points each, but their transports, upgrades and wargear cost a lot.
The only thing worth complaining is exorcist, and even it is not really overpowered.

An Exorcist is a Predator Annihilator with 3.5 shots a turn (average) instead of 3 with a rerollable. It also has only a single weapon, making it useless after a single weapon destroyed roll.

10 Sisters with a Heavy Flamer, Melta Gun, Vet w/ Book, Rhino with Extra Armour, Smokes is 209 points. This is the most cost effective mechanised unit. 10 Marines with a Missile Launcher, Flamer, and Rhino are 200 points. So Sisters are cheap are they? Marines get a point of Str, T, WS, I and Combat Tactics, for 9 points less. Sisters get Faith to balance it out. People should get over it.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-04-2009, 01:32
"BS! <insert rule/ability here> is annoying and broken because it changes the way I have to play to defeat your army! Which chipmunk thought it would be a good idea to give <insert unit here> <insert rule/ability here>!? No way should they get <insert rule/ability here> for that cost, it should cast at least another <insert stupidly high points cost here>!

Hell, look at <insert opposing army here> gets a worse version of <insert rule/ability here> and they pay much more! It is like GW is trying to screw <insert your army of choice here> or are showing mass favouritism to <insert army/unit with perceived overpowered rule/ability here>.

Goddamn GW <insert swearing here>"

...*talks discreetly into radio built into collar*


You do realize that you have just completely figured out the Warseer Formula. Good work!:cool:

Yep. Our... congratulatory staff will be at his house shortly with... prizes. Yes, prizes.

Xenobane
18-04-2009, 02:03
What a very sad thread. SoBs aren't the best army out there, they have their little gimmick (read: themed special rules) just like everybody else, and it's a major part of their power - there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Personally I've always enjoyed the army because their performance is so closely linked with it's core special rules, as opposed to playing, say, Imperial Guard, where vast swathes of fluff-based special options and rules are poor or overcosted, leading you to feel that every game is a battle against your own codex, and penalising those who wish to play fluffy armies (drop trooping aside...)

I second Lord Cook's defence of Faith. I think it's unique (in a game system increasingly lacking truly unique abilities), flavoursome and cool.

Lastly, there's some very glib tactical statements on this thread, making me think some of you guys should face different opponents now and again. Any reasonably competitive army in the hands of a competent and intelligent player is going to be far less predictable than you'd think reading this forum.

AngryAngel
18-04-2009, 03:59
"BS! <insert rule/ability here> is annoying and broken because it changes the way I have to play to defeat your army! Which chipmunk thought it would be a good idea to give <insert unit here> <insert rule/ability here>!? No way should they get <insert rule/ability here> for that cost, it should cast at least another <insert stupidly high points cost here>!

Hell, look at <insert opposing army here> gets a worse version of <insert rule/ability here> and they pay much more! It is like GW is trying to screw <insert your army of choice here> or are showing mass favouritism to <insert army/unit with perceived overpowered rule/ability here>.

Goddamn GW <insert swearing here>"

LOL, I agree completely, no matter the armies or rules you insert.