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View Full Version : How to "fix" pariah's in 5th?



Bonzai
19-04-2009, 01:58
I was thinking about the Necrons and potential updates for them in 5th edition, and one of the hardest things to balance and make usefull are Pariah's. At first glance, they are not a bad unit. Decent stats, come with a power weapon, hurts enemey leadership, and is anti-psyker. Pretty good stuff! However they have some serious flaws as well. They are none necron, so they don't count towards phase out. They are expensive. And lastly, and most problematic, is that they are forced to foot slog. This means that they tend to arrive too late, or get shot up on the way there. So what should be done to "fix" them?

If 5th edition does away with phase out (which is strongly rumored), then Pariah's are going to be a stronger choice right off the bat, as not being Necron becomes much less of a problem.

A 2nd option would be to allow them to be held in reserve, and to deep strike them through a Monolith. This could allow them to get into the thick of things quicker.

A 3rd idea that is passed around is to lower their price. I would actually like to keep them the same, or slightly higher and give them an extra attack.

An idea that came to me this morning, was to allow other squads to have a single Pariah join their unit (kind of like upgrading a squad with a leader). This would give certain squads a little more CC punch, help them in assault (by possibly lowering the enemies leadership), protect them from Psykers, and give them a little more anti-tank.

Fluff wise I think this fits very well. Pariah's are a rare and valuable resource for the Necrons. Not only for their ability to disrupt the warp, but also because they retain their memories, intellect, and the potential to have creative thought. Having one on a unit would allow them to adapt and react to situations.

I would do the following changes to certain troops;

Necron Warriors, Flayed ones, and Immortals would have the following added to their description: A Necron Unit of 5 or more, can add a Pariah Adjunct for an additional 40 points (40 points is assuming that they get their extra attack). A Pariah Adjunct is a part of the unit, and is deployed and moved in the same way as the rest of it's unit (I.E. if the unit deep strikes, or is teleported through a monolith).

I would also change Flayed ones to a troop choice, and increase their squad cap to 5-20.

What do you guys think?

Imperius
19-04-2009, 02:05
Well seeing as Necrons will be released in like 2123 I don't see why anyone would care...

But to fix the Pariah it should have actual anti psyker powers and the ability to Deepstrike or Infiltrate. IE: When a Pariah is in close combat with any Psyker(s), he may take a X test, if it succedes the Psyker(s) in question takes a 'Perils of the Warp' attack.

Legionary
19-04-2009, 02:09
Same points cost, +1A. Done.

Joewrightgm
19-04-2009, 03:06
For myself: plastic. I've always loved the pariahs, but the absurd cost has kept me away.

I would say give them Feel No Pain (along with the rest of the army) instead of we'll be back equivalent rules and drop them by a point. The point drop is rather arbitrary, because I like round numbers when list constructing.

Here here on the +1 A, or make warscythes grant +1 A to the wielder.

Letting them take advantage of necron teleport goodness would also be nice.

sabreu
19-04-2009, 03:24
If they could be bought in groups 1-5, but deployed individually and have the independent character rules they would be ace. You could dictate were they go, how they are going to work in your army, and you could be fluid in your deployment.

Also, if they remove phase out that would increases their likeability. If they get some different wargear or anti-psyker abilities as well it would be ace, but as long as they could be put where they are need that's fine by me!

Filthy O'Bedlam
19-04-2009, 03:33
Reduce the points cost, and make them subject to WBB.

Chem-Dog
19-04-2009, 03:56
They are none necron, so they don't count towards phase out. They are expensive. And lastly, and most problematic, is that they are forced to foot slog.

Not Necron: As you say, if Phase out's gone this is less of an issue although it would be easy to retcon the fluff slightly and make them Is Necron, as far as I can figure the Pariah is 99% robot, so it's not too much of a leap.

Expensive: Their price will change, simply because the current ones were written for a different rule set, so even if the Pariah remained otherwise unchanged it's points value would.

Foot Slog: Less of an issue with the new setup types and the universal run, you could give them FoF if you wanted to make them different from the vast majority of the Necron Horde (if you don't want to apply Is Necron)


Pariah's are a rare and valuable resource for the Necrons. Not only for their ability to disrupt the warp, but also because they retain their memories, intellect, and the potential to have creative thought.

Less of an issue now than it was, the Necron story has progressed, even the little bit we've got in the BRB gives Lords their personalities back. That and there is probably quite a few more Pariahs now.

I like the Squad Leader/Junior Lord approach but don't think it fits with Necrons in general (plus the thought of all of those Ld 7 defuff bubbles is horrible to comprehend).

If Necrons do get WWB swapped for FNP, I would be in favour of giving them FNP. From what I can remember Warscythes are pretty nasty, so I probably wouldn't change them, but maybe an extra attack would be in order, maybe counting their Negative Ld effect as assault/defensive grenades. Invulnerable save maybe?
Of course you could go the other way and make them way bigger and Multi wound, boosting their S and T to match, but that would be better territory for the Immortals.


Having said all that I'm a big fan of the "Aspect Lord" concept where a Lord may choose a Necron Construct type (suitably blinged, of course) into which he may be transferred, allowing for the Idea of a Immortal Lord, "Wraith Lord" and even a Flayed one Lord, pushing this Logic around, it should be possible for a Pariah (which still has it's personality) to somehow become a Lord....

sabreu
19-04-2009, 04:14
Foot Slog: Less of an issue with the new setup types and the universal run, you could give them FoF if you wanted to make them different from the vast majority of the Necron Horde (if you don't want to apply Is Necron)

I don't particularly like this idea. Giving out FoF seems to be a default candy being given out these days and it wouldn't really make them stand out too much. I would like them to be just a bit more creative than that!


I like the Squad Leader/Junior Lord approach but don't think it fits with Necrons in general (plus the thought of all of those Ld 7 defuff bubbles is horrible to comprehend).

I don't think the sergeant/squad concept should be shoe-horned into every army list. While it is perfectly acceptable for most conventional army set ups, not having that implaced into Necrons gives them just a bit more character ruleswise and background wise. Why would you need a squad leader if your able to receive your commands from your lord faster than any vox network could ever hope to?

Kalec
19-04-2009, 04:19
If they could be bought in groups 1-5, but deployed individually and have the independent character rules they would be ace. You could dictate were they go, how they are going to work in your army, and you could be fluid in your deployment.



This would be one of the worst possible things that could be done to pariahs. Ever wanted to bleed killpoints like they were going out of style? Well, there are two great ways to do this: priests, and death cult assassins. Do you want pariahs to be the third?

squeekenator
19-04-2009, 04:20
I reckon Pariah Is should have the Necron rule (they basically are, really) and 2 attacks. It makes the Belonging To A Pariah scary in melee rather than just looking pretty (well, they don't do that so well either) and makes them survivable, which makes sense since they're an all-rounder elite unit of a tough army.

sabreu
19-04-2009, 04:27
Kalec, I understand your stance on Killpoints, I truly do. I just am not of the mind to wrap unit design around 1 particular mission in the rule book. If Pariahs were made potent, viable units that could boost your ability in close combat and were effective tools against Psykers, you as a player could decide whether to worry about Kill point efficiency.

Besides, most necron armies are not going to have excessive Kill points to begin with. I play a mechanised Ork force mostly, where my average kill points are quite excessive (I believe I have twelve just in troops alone including transports). A friend of mine plays mechanised marines with a near amount of kill points, which had me quite surprised the first time I found out due to him being an 'elite' army. Transports are big culprits in this, which thankfully Necron armies don't have to worry about. Their only vehicle is a nigh and high mobile bunker that can teleport troops around and has enough protection that it's quite laughable to suggest it ever being blown away in every game in contrast to an ork trukk, which is a sure fire thing to blow up! Necrons, by far, are the most potent KP deniers in the whole game so I wouldn't worry too much about them.

Dexter099
19-04-2009, 04:49
I got me a good idea:

WS 5
BS 4
S 5
T 5
I 5
A 2
Ld: fearless

3+ armor save, FNP, 4+ invul (living metal or something)

Coutns as having Frag and Defensive nades, warscythe.

Their points cost should drop 5 points or so. With the 4+ invul, they should be able to go toe to toe with other assualt troops.

bocaj
19-04-2009, 11:37
They should be cheeper get FNP and be able to teleport.

Warsythes are great, no saves possible even invunrebel or FNP, get 2D6 for aumor penetration and have a Gauss Blaster built in.

Poseidal
19-04-2009, 12:47
Just give them one more wound and attack each, and the possibility to be transported. I can see why being 'not Necron' can not give WBB, but I can't see why it should stop them being ported around.

At T5, they're only instakilled by S10 stuff, and the extra wound is a reasonable substitute for WBB.

Lord Damocles
19-04-2009, 13:06
Necrons

+1 A


Job's a good'un boss.

The_Outsider
19-04-2009, 13:53
+1 W and I

Who cares if you only have 1 attack when you simply refuse to die?

Buddha777
19-04-2009, 14:07
Give them whatever the new 'necron' rule turns out to be, drop the soulless special rule, and make them squad sergeant upgrades. Give necrons some CC punch and some actual use for pariahs.

Hellgore
19-04-2009, 14:17
I got me a good idea:

WS 5
BS 4
S 5
T 5
I 5
A 2
Ld: fearless

3+ armor save, FNP, 4+ invul (living metal or something)

Coutns as having Frag and Defensive nades, warscythe.

Their points cost should drop 5 points or so. With the 4+ invul, they should be able to go toe to toe with other assualt troops.

That is ridiculously overpowered or underpriced. Just compare this with SM-Termies and then they should be almost 10 pts cheaper? Come on!
I am a Necron Player and really hope for a better ruleset for the pariahs but this suggestion would make me drop them. I5 T5 WS5 S5 with a weapon that ignores every save and having 3+/4+ incl. FNP themselves? Yeah, right...:rolleyes::wtf:

Hellgore
19-04-2009, 14:18
+1 W and I

Who cares if you only have 1 attack when you simply refuse to die?

Yeah, I'd rather support that! Maybe FNP if all the army gets it.

Lord Damocles
19-04-2009, 14:19
Give them whatever the new 'necron' rule turns out to be, drop the soulless special rule, and make them squad sergeant upgrades. Give necrons some CC punch and some actual use for pariahs.
So... completely destroy their background then?

Bonzai
19-04-2009, 17:53
There is some great discussion here. I had initially thought about Sabrue's idea and liked it. The only thing though, is there any other non-hq unit in the game that does that? I was trying to avoid setting a precedent, and instead kind of treated them as a unit upgrade. Fluff wise they are not a "Leader" upgrade, just a special unit attached to the squad.

Imagine what one of those would do for a unit of flayed ones! Leadership is reuced to 7, and they must make a leadership test to be able to attack them. Great synergy there.

For Warrior's and Immortals, the pariahs would get some hits in at a decent initiative (Beating the power firsts), hopefully lessening the losses the unit takes. If the Unit wins the assault (Their chances are better with a Pariah, especially one with 2 attacks), then they have a possibly lower leadership to deal with.

Really, Necrons have all the CC choices they would ever need.They just need some tweaking. Pariah's need some of the changes listed above. Flayed ones need to be made a troop choice, have their squad cap increased to 5-20, and allow for a Pariah to be attached to them. Wraiths need their squad size raised to 1-6, and they need to be able to take disruption fields or be given rending. Lords and Tomb Spyders are already decent options.

By allowing immortals and warriors have a Pariah attached to them, they get a little closer to a Marine Squad level of CC. The Marines still have the advantage of initiative, and some warriors will fall. However the Pariah should help, especially if the rumor is true about them increasing warrior toughness to 5.

Neilza
19-04-2009, 19:40
+1 I
+1 A
And deepstrike

Asi the Red
19-04-2009, 19:43
My "off the cuff" solution was to say get rid of Pariah units altogether and make them a HQ, along the lines of the suggested "Pariah Lord", but without having a weaker unit of Pariahs in the elites section.

Then I thought, +1 wound and a 5+ Inv would make them a pretty good assault unit.

Now I'm thinking that a combination of the two could be interesting. An Alpha Pariah HQ and an Elite Pariah unit where the Alpha has some upgrades that benefit himself and some that benefit himself and give a passive bonus to the Pariah unit.

GTG, concrete idea later.

Deetwo
19-04-2009, 20:11
Make them an upgrade to Necron warrior units. Squad leader with the pariah rule (but no warscythe) and change gauss blasters to some double ccw stuff with the gauss rule in cc.
Or just drop points and make them able to use the transportation stuff.

Pariah Lord would also be awesome.. I think Lords should have mutable options to make them similar to most units in the book in addition to destroyer body.

Buddha777
19-04-2009, 21:35
So... completely destroy their background then?

Wasn't a big fan of their fluff to be honest. Why are the newest members of the necron force equipped with their best weapons? Why can't they teleport like all other necron forces and why are they magically so harsh to be around as to reduce leadership of warriors that have encountered the horrors of the universe time and again?

No real answer to any of those questions. I could careless therefore if they completely re-wrote pariahs backround in any way to make them playable.

O&G'sRule
19-04-2009, 22:16
give them a force field or some other ward save to make up for the lack of "we'll be back". An extra attack would be nice, perhaps a tomb king style "it came from below" deep strike rule

holmcross
19-04-2009, 23:36
Pariahs have, argueably, the best close combat weapon among non-special characters in the game.

Making them better in CC would give Necrons one of the most dangerous CC units in the game, and that's silly.

There was a reason that they aren't Necrons, if a unit with that kind of potential was difficult to neutralize.... well, there would be serious problems.

Nezmith
19-04-2009, 23:54
I like the idea of being able to put one in every squad that walks.

You would wonder why a group of these Super-Culexus with their soullessness would all bunch up together, rather than fanning out with the rest of the army to cause as much problems as possible.

Pariahs could use another attack for their points cost, and then also be able to be taken for any squad, as a sergeant option. Fluffwise you can simply reason that they are moving throughout the Necron Army like the Wraiths, looking for enemy pyskers to attack, that being their purpose.

Vaktathi
20-04-2009, 00:28
Make them I4, 2A, 30pts each.

Done.

Make it so they actually get to use their wonderful CC weapons to good effect, bring the cost down a bit, and they are suddenly wonderful units. They'd still be easier to kill than Immortals, but much more dangerous in CC, just as shooty, and have a cool leadership reducing ability.

Grindgodgrind
20-04-2009, 00:53
I'd go with Vaktahi's idea. I think FnP might give them a bit TOO much staying power? A 5+ inv wouldn't be too harsh, either.

blackcherry
20-04-2009, 01:39
Wasn't a big fan of their fluff to be honest. Why can't they teleport like all other necron forces and why are they magically so harsh to be around as to reduce leadership of warriors that have encountered the horrors of the universe time and again?

No real answer to any of those questions.

Its because the human aspect of the pariah is made from someone with the pariah gene, who otherwise would become a Culexus assassin. These people from birth are shunned as people, even when their inherent power is numbed, find it hard to be in even the same room as them.

Now imagine that power isn't numbed and in fact let run rampant (after all, necrons aren't affected by it). Thats why.:p

Hope it helped:D

As to the topic, make then necron, perhaps have +1A and I. After all, whats the point of having such a great weapon if the things you would use it on (usually tough combat monster units) can kill you before you even swing?

cuda1179
20-04-2009, 02:05
I'd also go with Vaktahi's idea.

Inititive 3 is as silly as it gets. Opponents that I3 are useful against (Tau, IG, Orks) basically waste their god-like strength and power weapon.

When it comes to marines, it is almost a complete waste. The only squad I can think of that has an inititive of less than 4 is terminators. And if you want to get into HtH with terminators you are doing something wrong.

After a long thinking process, I think that they should stay with 1 attack, but count the Warsythe as 2 CCW's. If that were the case it could help the Lords out too.

Draconian77
20-04-2009, 02:18
Really? I have seen Pariahs eat Terminators on the charge...(Thunderhammer+Shield)

Why exactly are you doing something wrong by charging a heavily armoured unit with an armour negating assault squad?

I think lower points cost and +1 attack. I wouldn't give them any defensive bonuses.

Lion El Jason
20-04-2009, 02:59
Necrons, +1 A and possibly 2+ saves.

Dexter099
20-04-2009, 03:41
+1 A, I5, and a 5+ invul.

Pariahs should be very fast considering their bodies are made from living metal and human tissue, and they retain all of their thought.

The I5 allows them to trump certain units, but they are still expensive and will get swamped by S4 hordes.

Legionary
20-04-2009, 04:15
Can't be I5 and get another attack AND a better/invulnerable save. That changes them from pretty poor to really too good. I can see I4 and +1A, or I can see I3, +1A, 5++, but I can't see I5,+1A,5++.

What really needs to be sorted out is what the Pariahs are supposed to be. If they're the counter for nasty elite infantry, give them I4 and +1A. This makes them a nasty squad, since even if you hit them with, say, a large squad of Assault Marines then the Pariahs will probably win - a unit of 5 Pariahs will have 10 (or 15 on the charge) power weapon attacks, and the simultaenously-striking Marines will struggle to wound 'em because of T5. Against Terminators you're going to be doing a hell of a lot of damage because Warscythes allow no save whatsoever and you're hitting at S5 AND you're hitting first. 5 TT/SS Terminators vs 5 Pariahs on the charge, 7.5 hits from the Pariahs, 4.95 wounds are caused against the Terminators, 4.95 Terminators die, unit's dead.

The reason I don't think Pariahs can be given an invuln save is that they'd simply be too good. A unit armed with weapons that ignore ALL saves is extremely potent, and it's got to have some drawback besides simply cost. The fact that they're expensive and that they're not quite as tough to kill as Terminators isn't them being underpowered, it's them being balanced.

An additional attack and/or I4, those things I can see. 2+ armour, 5++ invuln, WBB, portals - these things I can't, because then they'd be too good.

Rioghan Murchadha
20-04-2009, 04:41
Pariahs have, argueably, the best close combat weapon among non-special characters in the game.

Making them better in CC would give Necrons one of the most dangerous CC units in the game, and that's silly.

There was a reason that they aren't Necrons, if a unit with that kind of potential was difficult to neutralize.... well, there would be serious problems.

You mean, as opposed to the way it is now, where they are ridiculously easy to neutralize, and everybody laughs at anyone foolish enough to pay the grotesquely inflated cost for them? (In both points and dollars).

cuda1179
20-04-2009, 05:06
The reason I said Pariahs stink against terminators is that currently they have few advantages over them while being almost as expensive. Sure, ignoring thier invulnerable save is nice, but it's not enough.

A regular terminator can weather the pariahs attacks, and strike back with two attacks of his own. Each terminator left will kill a pariah every turn.

It only gets worse with lightning claw terminators. Since they get three attacks each, and go first, plus they re-role wounds, a unit of 5 will kill 4 of the pariahs before they get to strike back.

WorLord
20-04-2009, 05:58
Make them count as necrons for teleport purposes (no WBB), +1A, 5+ inv., remove ranged attack entirely or reduce profile to gauss flayer level (rapid fire or maybe Assault 1 instead of Assault 2) and allow 1 to be added as an attachment for warrior, immortal, or flayed one squads.

Now, let's see someone model up a pariah on a destroyer body (Pariah Destroyer?)...:p

CrownAxe
20-04-2009, 05:59
heck, lets just make them jump infantry and +1A and +1 WS

jobi
20-04-2009, 08:14
:wtf::rolleyes: Why not just max out all their stats to 10 give them a 2+ Inv and armor save. 10 attacks each...sounds good. lower them to 5 points each and allow squads of 100.

Better yet let's just make a new rule... When Pariahs are placed on the table the Necrons win.

They are slow for a purpose. They are good if you counter attack with them. If they drop Phase Out then problem solved, no further fix required.

Lord Damocles
20-04-2009, 08:37
No real answer to any of those questions. I could careless therefore if they completely re-wrote pariahs backround in any way to make them playable.
How is there 'no answer' to those questions?

Pariahs affect enemy Ld because they're PARIAHS. They carry the pariah gene - y'know, that thing that makes Culexus Assassins intolerable to be around for any length of time even when their abilities are supressed somewhat.

They carry Warscythes because they're the next step in the C'tan's masterplan for the galaxy. They're not just some slave race forced into necrodermis shells. They're the perfect being - a 'terrible symbiosis of Necron technology and human evolution'.
They're also menat to fill the anti-terminator niche in the list, and to be honest they'd be even more poo if they didn't have Warscythes.

And they can teleport - how do you think they manage to accompany Necron raids if they can't be transported around phase space?
Why can't they do it in game? Poor rules. Not background.


----------------

Pariahs are almost where they need to be - they'll muller Terminators (not Lightning Claw Terminators, but pick your targets and all that...) given the chance, but no opponant in their right mind would give you the chance. And even if they do make combat any return attacks will cause them serious pain.

Make them Necrons so they can teleport (probably don't let them get WBB though) - or just allow them to use the Monolith portal, and either give them increased staying power in assault - I quite like the suggestion of an invulnerable save for this - or increased punch (ie. attacks).

IMO they wouldn't benefit much from increased I since they'll be striking before their prefered targets with I 3 or 4 anyway. Incidently, I'd add some sort of 'Tomb Guardian' (ala 'Nighbringer') unit to the Necron list armed with Staffs of Light to act as a more general (and sorely needed) anti MEQ unit.

Bonzai
20-04-2009, 17:04
:wtf::rolleyes: Why not just max out all their stats to 10 give them a 2+ Inv and armor save. 10 attacks each...sounds good. lower them to 5 points each and allow squads of 100.

Better yet let's just make a new rule... When Pariahs are placed on the table the Necrons win.

They are slow for a purpose. They are good if you counter attack with them. If they drop Phase Out then problem solved, no further fix required.

I disagree. As far as I know, Pariah's are the only infantry unit in the game that are unable to be transported/teleported at all. Kinda fits the name, but still... I think they should still be subject to Necron teleportation. Monolith and veil of darkness.

Hmmm... that actually sounds really good. A veil lord deep striking with a unit of pariahs. I would actually buy a squad of them for that.

Captain Micha
20-04-2009, 17:21
I would -almost- pay for them if they could be teleported.

Actually the worst part about them is overcome then.

They should get a 5+ invuln save though. They are exorbitantly priced personally I believe any unit that costs 30+ pts a pop -naked- should get an Invuln save no questions asked.

jobi: You know it is common courtesy where I grew up to keep your mouth shut about things you obviously know nothing about. Pariah suck right now as they are. There's a reason most of us Necron Players haven't taken them since the codex was -new- six, or seven years ago.

Sttucker13
20-04-2009, 18:24
jobi: You know it is common courtesy where I grew up to keep your mouth shut about things you obviously know nothing about. Pariah suck right now as they are. There's a reason most of us Necron Players haven't taken them since the codex was -new- six, or seven years ago.

I have 4000 points of Necrons. Care to guess which single model type is completely missing from that shelf?

Pariahs are fail.