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Denise
19-04-2009, 05:44
I am not sure if I really want to do this, but I was just thinking it might be interesting to make a IG army based off of our earth.

Fluff-wise I was thinking of something similar to the imo funny BSG twist where there are somehow different earths. The imperial earth is the original and our earth is a long abandoned colony that just so happens to have a similar early history and continental layout.

Our earth somewhere along the lines finds a really freaking old spaceship under the ocean or something and starts to develop similar but slightly more "earthling" version of the equipment. (Mostly relying on our current technology with some imperial supplements integrated)

They then go out and have bad encounters with other races. I know what I just summarized is somewhat "deus ex machina," but I mostly thought it might be a fun modeling/painting twist.

What do you think? Is this too far out of the fluff to tolerate?

Zahr Dalsk
19-04-2009, 05:55
Been done before and always ends incredibly lamely.

sabreu
19-04-2009, 06:00
No, not really too out there. Some early colonist may have stumbled upon a world and terraformed it to resemble early Terra, prior to loosing contact with other human societies. In fact, said colonists may have even gone as far keeping the original history of the real earth and repressing what they may have considered unnecessary for their descendants as some sort of puritan movement that disagreed with the polotics of the time.

primarchvulken
19-04-2009, 08:41
I once saw a arbirtes squad conveted up to look like modern special forces.It actually looked pretty good.

ironcurtin117
19-04-2009, 18:20
This was in the first HH book, and happened during the Macharian Crusade.

The imperium steamrolls the suckers and say THEY never existed

Burnthem
19-04-2009, 18:26
Could have put spoilers for those of us that HAVEN'T seen the end of BSG yet.

Cheers :mad:

Lewis
19-04-2009, 18:35
I think its too much and a triffle unnecessary in a world wheree the wars of the future are being fought by soldiers that look like they're from Vietnam and World War 1....The game has an incredibl current-future feel as it is, look at those old berret wearing stormtroopers...

I'm just saying that to get the look you want its a bit to much of a crazy background. Just play with a human world that has early 21t century style.

blurrymadness
19-04-2009, 19:18
I think the idea that regular humans in 40k would be even moderately effective is laughable. IG are still supersoldiers of sorts. Still very strong, gene enhanced, 6'+ tall monsters of men. I imagine a regular human is a little better than a skilled Grot stats wise (maybe WS3 I3 grot).

I agree with Lewis that the fluff is going out of your way for a feel that can already be simply incorperated. Cadian match 21st century well, Catachan ~= vietnam, Tallarn ~= Arab militaries or terrorists, yadda yadda. All the obvious archtypes, snow, jungle, desert, urban, current-future, have all been done by GW. There are even more types than you expect. Something like 8 types of guardsman models.

Denise
19-04-2009, 21:47
Could have put spoilers for those of us that HAVEN'T seen the end of BSG yet.

Cheers :mad:

Sorry about that... I seriously considered putting a spoiler marker on it but I couldn't figure out how to and I figured that at this point, with the series well over, nobody is going to care too much. Oh well...

Lothlanathorian
19-04-2009, 22:09
I think the idea that regular humans in 40k would be even moderately effective is laughable. IG are still supersoldiers of sorts. Still very strong, gene enhanced, 6'+ tall monsters of men. I imagine a regular human is a little better than a skilled Grot stats wise (maybe WS3 I3 grot).


Except for the whole part where IG aren't gene inhanced super soldiers and the whole issue with their tech being comparable to modern Earth 80% of the time.

I say it isn't a horrid idea, but I would find some other way to explain it. Such as a planet colonised by people with a strong martial background. Pick a modern army that you would like to base it on and build around that. Which, well, is how most of it gets done anyways.

And yes, the 'other Terra' idea has been done by GW before, as was previously pointed out.

Nakor
19-04-2009, 22:15
*NINJA'D!*



IG are still supersoldiers

back up there bad boy :wtf:

***it seems like a bit of flaming after reading my spiel below, but thats not how its intended. im just throwing my (and GWs i guess) opinion on the matter out there. im not trying to offend ya there blurry***

IG are the countless masses of regular joes. afaik the only 'enhanced' supersoldiers the IG had were officers during the great crusade. they were discontinued because their men couldn't keep up with them and junk. the IG are effective because they are cheep to recruit and equip (i.e. dont waste time <--- important; and money gene therapizing a grunt whos probaly going to die fairly soon). sure they die alot, but they dont die that much. otherwise how would they win anything? where would veterans come from? who would be left to do anything? the SMs baby, but thers only a million or so of those guys; and the sisters of course, but then they are limited compared to the IG iirc ergo why the sisters arent the MAIN FORCE of the imperium on the ground.


and yeah i think the OP could just incorporate, rather then bust out new fluff. i have taken to making sickle mags for my lasguns and chopping the end bit off the muzzle (the angled nozzle) so it looks like and autogun and then giving every one dabbed on muted colors to make camofalge. they look pretty modern after that. if your really want you could file off the sill earmuffs and that lump on the back of the helmets.

Lewis
19-04-2009, 22:19
I think the point was that if you read the descriptions of IG regiments they sound incredibly, incredibly hard compared to an avreage real world soldier. Real world Death Korps would be terrifying to behold.

Arcadian
19-04-2009, 22:22
Personally, as a BSG fan... Neat Idea...

As for asking for Spoilers... the show has been over for about a month now.. if you havent seen the end, its no ones fault.. Almost all published reviews now reveal the ending and such..

Zahr Dalsk
19-04-2009, 23:22
IG are the countless masses of regular joes.

Compared to superior species like Eldar and Orks, maybe. Compared to a normal human, IG are still far superior.

Imperial Guard are usually selected from the very best of a planet's PDF (who already represent a superior selection of humanity). They are the most fanatical and zealous soldiers, and the most skilled.

Then there's also the old argument that humanity in M41 is biologically superior to humanity in M3, from both evolution (Death Worlds in particular) and biological modification during the DAoT (or in the case of Skitarii, technological enhancement and mental discipline).

They only seem like they are weak because they're going up against species that are far beyond them. Eldar and Orks, for example, are genetically engineered warrior species, superior in every biological aspect to humans, and that is why Imperial Guardsmen seem weak individually.

Col. Tartleton
19-04-2009, 23:26
I think the idea that regular humans in 40k would be even moderately effective is laughable. IG are still supersoldiers of sorts. Still very strong, gene enhanced, 6'+ tall monsters of men. I imagine a regular human is a little better than a skilled Grot stats wise (maybe WS3 I3 grot).

I've always argued this for Cadia at least.

The reason they're the about the size of the marines is because they are. :rolleyes:

A marine is supposed to be seven to seven and a half feet. A cadian is easily a six foot six blond blue eyed 290 pounds warrior trained from childhood to fight. Will a marine beat a shock trooper? Yes, with ease.

Will he beat a Kasrkin? Well that's a bit more of a toss up. Sure that bolter will do a number on his carapace armor, but that Hellgun will put some holes in his plot armor. Kasrkin are the Grenadiers of the force so men reaching seven feet or more is quite likely as such they're going to be like a marine scout and probably weigh a good 350 pounds.

Will a marine win? Yes but the boys in olive may get lucky.

Zahr Dalsk
20-04-2009, 00:03
I hear the new Codex IG is making Stormtroopers superior to Tactical Marines. I might have misunderstood, though. Still, it would be nice.

blurrymadness
20-04-2009, 00:17
Wot 'e sed.

I guess I'll reiterate what I mean. They are sort of like the clones in clone wars I imagine. Superior men who are.. recreated? I know they're born natural, but I believe they are still superior to regular men. Conscripts are regular men, IG in the books (HH) are called Genos in Legion (i think this is relevant, it's been awhile), and their Commisar-type leaders are called "Genewhips". If I had the first book on me, I'd look up to see if that has any odd references like that, but I seem to remember the saps on that* "Terra" compared to the Guardsman, were essentially lessers.

I could be wrong, especially as I seem to be refuted multiple times, but IIRC they're supposed to still be rather impressive humans. It's not hard to get a million impressive soldiers from a billion civis ya know?

Eldartank
20-04-2009, 00:18
Here's how I think it could work out: Suppose our Earth is a parallel Earth in the 41st Millennium. If we managed to get hold of some Imperial technology (perhaps an Imperial Navy transport or a small Space Marine ship crashes in New Mexico, or we stumble upon a gold mine of STC), we wouldn't have any of the Imperial superstition impeding us in any way as we studied and replicated this technology. Assuming the Imperium or other "40k" races don't discover us for at least a few decades, we will fairly easily develop (and not just develop, but also improve) this technology. We will have all kinds of improved weaponry, medical care, industry, food production, etc.

Before long, we would start exploring nearby space with our really cool "hyperspace capable" ships, totally unaware that with our totally NON-superstitious way of looking at technology and improving it, our interstellar capability is far superior to (the as-yet unencountered) Imperial warp technology. After some months of exploration, an Imperial Navy ship stumbles upon our exploration ship and promptly destroys the "heretics."

By the time the Imperium returns with a massive flotilla of warships (including 4 Space Marine Battle Barges, a few Imperial Navy Battleships, and dozens of Cruisers and support ships), Our fleet of about a dozen smaller but vastly superior warships makes short work of the Imperial attack force without hardly getting a scratch.

The Tau, and perhaps some of the Eldar Craftworlds, will find us easy to deal with as we are not fanatical xenophobes like the Imperium. This, of course, will lead to trade agreements, non-aggression pacts and perhaps even limited alliances. And once we prove that we really are not backstabbing fanatical xenophobes like the Imperium, those agreements may lead to even stronger alliances and maybe even some exchanges of technology. The Imperium may very well find themselves dealing wth a Tau Empire and an Earth Federation (or something similar) and maybe a couple Eldar Craftworlds that are totally untouchable. The Imperium wouldn't try to "purge the heretic" if that "heretic" could easily destroy their most powerful ships and war machines with just a few shots......

Zahr Dalsk
20-04-2009, 00:30
@Eldartank: The Imperium has faced and crushed such sorts of technologically advanced humans before.

Eldartank
20-04-2009, 00:48
Perhaps the Imperium only crushed such technologically advanced humans in the past because they came upon them too quickly for them to build up their defenses and react. Or maybe those others weren't quite as technologically advanced at the theoretical "Earth Federation" that I mentioned.....

Then again, this is a GW story background we're talking about here. They would probably have a single Space Marine scout ship wipe out a fleet of hundreds of "Star Trek The Next Generation" ships all by themselves...

;)

nathanceulemans
20-04-2009, 01:18
Technically, it wouldn't be too hard to use this background story to style up an IG army, and you could probably also make a SM-yet-not-really-SM army like this.

Say they found that STC or crashed Imperial vehicle, I don't think it would take more than give-or-take a hundred years before we'd worked out the genetic engineering, armouring and electronics that make up a basic power armoured Marine... You could style these guys to have Librarians that use technology to power their 'Psychic' abilities (holograms, space-matter distortion etc.), Techmarines that don't sport AdMech logos ^^, etc. etc.

This is where you're really given as much leeway as you need, the galaxy is big, strange things happened here and there (hell, the Macharius Crusade even found a planet which had a giant machine feeding on humans kept unconscious-----the Matrix?), so you could really just play a modern army plus 50 years of tech as IG, and you have a valid fluff backstory. Wouldn't be the first time it's done.

Btw, the BSG finale was strangely satisfying yet unsatisfying

----- SPOILERS for those who STILL haven't seen it ----- wth Kara just goes *poof*? I sat around for years to let the only answer be "GOD DID IT, and he's going to pull it on us again!"...

Zahr Dalsk
20-04-2009, 01:19
Perhaps the Imperium only crushed such technologically advanced humans in the past because they came upon them too quickly for them to build up their defenses and react.

They crushed them for a couple reasons. First of all, the Imperium's tech is based entirely on DAoT remnants - their warships, for example, use the templates from DAoT cargo ships, and regardless of your human empire's advancement level, DAoT tech is very, very good. Second, the Imperium does not understand the concept of "war crimes" or "morality," and they will be willing to do almost anything to see rebels, heretics, and aliens destroyed. Third, the Imperium has experience from ten thousand years of war.

Fourth, and perhaps most significant of all, the Imperium have faced more advanced civilizations before, such as Eldar and Necrons - and won battles, won wars. What makes your advanced human society so special?

By the way, if you, a human in the 41st millennium, make a piece of technology and any cross-sectional view of it forms a Chaos symbol, you're basically asking it to be possessed. Have fun advancing your technology :D Why do you think the Imperium advances so slowly?

Lord Cook
20-04-2009, 01:19
IG are still supersoldiers of sorts. Still very strong, gene enhanced, 6'+ tall monsters of men.


A cadian is easily a six foot six blond blue eyed 290 pounds warrior trained from childhood to fight.

Kasrkin are the Grenadiers of the force so men reaching seven feet or more is quite likely as such they're going to be like a marine scout and probably weigh a good 350 pounds.

I think you're both getting carried away. You're assuming that 'better skilled' must automatically = 'larger'. That's nonsense. Just because you've received superior training doesn't magically add another foot to your height, in the same way that being great at sex doesn't suddenly make you incredibly well endowed. Now I'm sure there are 6'6" Cadians who weigh ~21 stone (290 pounds), but the idea that all of them are like that goes against the whole idea behind the Cadian military. They don't cherry pick from the whole population, they recruit and train almost everybody. Similarly, a Kasrkin is going to be no larger than a normal soldier. Historically grenadiers were taken from amongst the largest soldiers, however that is certainly no longer the case in the special forces, and nor have I ever seen anything to indicate that this would be the case in the 40k universe either.

Bigger does not equal better.

Zahr Dalsk
20-04-2009, 01:33
I've no doubt that worlds like Cadia and Catachan, both through selective breeding and survival of the fittest, would have genetically superior soldiers.

Krieg definitely can pick and choose since their population are produced through cloning.

Lord_Crull
20-04-2009, 01:42
Here's how I think it could work out: Suppose our Earth is a parallel Earth in the 41st Millennium. If we managed to get hold of some Imperial technology (perhaps an Imperial Navy transport or a small Space Marine ship crashes in New Mexico, or we stumble upon a gold mine of STC), we wouldn't have any of the Imperial superstition impeding us in any way as we studied and replicated this technology. Assuming the Imperium or other "40k" races don't discover us for at least a few decades, we will fairly easily develop (and not just develop, but also improve) this technology. We will have all kinds of improved weaponry, medical care, industry, food production, etc.

Before long, we would start exploring nearby space with our really cool "hyperspace capable" ships, totally unaware that with our totally NON-superstitious way of looking at technology and improving it, our interstellar capability is far superior to (the as-yet unencountered) Imperial warp technology. After some months of exploration, an Imperial Navy ship stumbles upon our exploration ship and promptly destroys the "heretics."

By the time the Imperium returns with a massive flotilla of warships (including 4 Space Marine Battle Barges, a few Imperial Navy Battleships, and dozens of Cruisers and support ships), Our fleet of about a dozen smaller but vastly superior warships makes short work of the Imperial attack force without hardly getting a scratch.

The Tau, and perhaps some of the Eldar Craftworlds, will find us easy to deal with as we are not fanatical xenophobes like the Imperium. This, of course, will lead to trade agreements, non-aggression pacts and perhaps even limited alliances. And once we prove that we really are not backstabbing fanatical xenophobes like the Imperium, those agreements may lead to even stronger alliances and maybe even some exchanges of technology. The Imperium may very well find themselves dealing wth a Tau Empire and an Earth Federation (or something similar) and maybe a couple Eldar Craftworlds that are totally untouchable. The Imperium wouldn't try to "purge the heretic" if that "heretic" could easily destroy their most powerful ships and war machines with just a few shots......


You would most likly only reach the first few systems surrounding your planet. Without Navigators warp travel is going ot be very slow, anythign else is inviting possesion by daemons so your ''Star Trek'' federation will get screwed over by daemonic possesion pretty quickly.

Remember there is a REASON why the Imperium are such bastards. Plus the Eldar are even bigger racist bastards than th eImperium and would regard you as they do other humans, a useful meat-shield.




Then again, this is a GW story background we're talking about here. They would probably have a single Space Marine scout ship wipe out a fleet of hundreds of "Star Trek The Next Generation" ships all by themselves...

;)

This may be a bit off topic but.....

Some guys over at SpacBattles forum did some calcs and found that in terms of weaponry and shields 40k ships were vastly superiour to Trek ships.

Denise
20-04-2009, 02:07
The fluff kinda makes everything so absurd in its own book that from simply reading any book you can easily assume that any one army is an army of unstoppable super soldiers... with this in mind I tend to 'pretend' its mostly internal propaganda so it can actually make sense.

With the massive size of the imperial guard armies I would be surprised if there wasn't a large group of them who were genetically engineered etc, but I think its more likely that the mass are just well trained soldiers. The conscripts are 'normal people' and the veterans, storm troopers, karskrin(I don't know the spelling) etc are more likely to be the genetically engineered ones.

We all know the lasrifles are total garbage, and we have technologically advanced well beyond flak armor as far as I understand it... so I think in the end it can be a comparable technology. This is obviously something with a large amount of room for disagreement given its fictional nature.

With the fluff, I think its definitely true that earth wouldn't really get far without the warp, but I imagine they would get far enough to encounter other races (like the tau have done). I also don't think that earth would survive very long if the Imperium decided to do something about it.

I have a hard time sympathizing with the Imperium's troops because even though they are the generic "Human Good Guys," they are still totally messed up. I think the reason the idea appeals to me is that even though our earth is hardly full of good guys, its still a group I am a part of and I can sympathize with them more. (Obviously GW intended for this to be the case, they just went a little bit too far for my tastes)

This discussion is actually far more interesting that I expected it to be.

Koryphaus
20-04-2009, 02:14
This may be a bit off topic but.....

Some guys over at SpacBattles forum did some calcs and found that in terms of weaponry and shields 40k ships were vastly superiour to Trek ships.

Of course they are, they operate on an entirely different scale, and with a totally different intent. Still, I find these comparisons pretty dumb. How do you calculate the power of a weapon in a fictional universe? The authors can do whatever they want, every time they want to. If an author wants a lance battery to rip apart a whole planet, then they can. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for consistency of comparison.

GW is very much Ruleofcoolocentric. That is the reason why their ships are so massive (I mean, really, would every race in the galaxy have warships which are multiple km long?), powerful and shaped in really stupid ways (massive ships with flat squared off hulls? Presents a really nice target and isn't great for structural integrity).



With the massive size of the imperial guard armies I would be surprised if there wasn't a large group of them who were genetically engineered etc, but I think its more likely that the mass are just well trained soldiers.

There are, they are called the Afriel Strain.


We all know the lasrifles are total garbage

Only on the tabletop, it is generally protrayed in the fluff as being an effective, reliable weapon.

Denise
20-04-2009, 02:25
Me quoting above (I messed up on the quote button and I don't know how to fix it)

"Only on the tabletop, it is generally protrayed in the fluff as being an effective, reliable weapon."

My point was that its a lot easier to base things off of the rules and not the fluff because the fluff is so absurd. I see the fluff as the same as the Imperial Primer or whatever it was called. Every army's rulebook says their weapons are the most awesome and they are the most powerful but if you look at them all together they are much more even.

I know the fluff is meant to be taken as the truth but it really doesn't match up with itself and that makes it pretty unreliable in my mind.

tuebor
20-04-2009, 02:31
Bigger does not equal better.

Especially if you're expecting that soldier to walk long distances as many Guard regiments seem to be in the habit of doing. Hauling a bunch of extra beef on your frame isn't exactly fun if you've got to walk 100k over the next few days. Most armies prefer their troops to be the wiry type rather than the body builder type.

noobzor
20-04-2009, 03:49
The only problem with eldartank's idea is that the eldar would see us the exact same way they see the imperial humans: weak, barbaric fools to be thrown at their enemies through manipulation :)

And the fact that the imperium would just send enough stuff to smother us in numbers. Standard guard tactics :D

noobzilla
20-04-2009, 05:38
We all know the lasrifles are total garbage, and we have technologically advanced well beyond flak armor as far as I understand it... so I think in the end it can be a comparable technology. This is obviously something with a large amount of room for disagreement given its fictional nature.



Our armor today can barely stop bullets reliably, what makes you think that it would be better than Guardsmen Flak Armor? I think we would have somewhere between a 5+ and 6+ save in the far future, unless our armor improved to something like Carapace in which case we would get a 4+.

kikkoman
20-04-2009, 05:45
I have a hard time sympathizing with the Imperium's troops because even though they are the generic "Human Good Guys," t...(Obviously GW intended for this to be the case, they just went a little bit too far for my tastes)


Really? I don't sympathize with them much more than any other faction. Orks are more sympathetic to me. To me, the Imperium is just as alien as the greenskins and space elves, they're all insanely exaggerated archetypes.

and also... Imperial tech is really *******' amazing at the higher end, they go for economy though.

At the top you have... guys in personal body armor powerful enough to shrug off anti-tank missiles, who are invisible, and are teleported to the battlefield. They have guns that kill demons.

You have one-man-army super assassins in 4 different flavors. One of them is a shape shifter with a gun that melts brains, the other is an invisible, with a man portable rifle that can destroy tanks and pierce force fields.

even the humble guardsmen's lasgun is an amazing piece of technology. It recharges in sunlight, or in a fire! think of how much that saves on logistics, AND it's easy to manufacture.


The Imperium also faces off against some insanely hi-tech enemies. Eldar, Necrons, Chaos, even Orks have some incredible technology with their tellaportas and such.

though the tau race was created to fill the niche you're proposing, something tau-ish is possible. They aren't particularly hi-tech, but they give their line troops the best they've got and have great future potential.

Nakor
20-04-2009, 08:11
They are sort of like the clones in clone wars I imagine. Superior men

yeah that makes sense kind of, and i remember seeing somewhere that many IG regiments are the cream of their worlds PDF. but then again these could just be the stand out groups like the catachans, deth korps, cadians and what not who actualy have somthing insane to deal with on their home world ---> deathworlds, fortress gate to the eye, fanatics repenting previous heresy producing psychotic, (un)naturaly selected turbo doom soldiers compared to your regular joe.

so these are the stand outs GW makes models for. the rest (in probably the vast vast vast majority) arent nearly as good as these sucker. remember that worlds dont make IG contributions for fun. the space goverment say "yo sucka we need some grunts" and the world produces their tribute towards the greater good of the imperium (some worlds just contribute goods/whatever else depending on circumstances). there's nothing stopping a planetary governor from just sending away regular soldiers tot he IG and keeping the cream for his own worlds defence/to stand about and look neat as he goes on a parade down main street.


SO i think we can agree on a mid point. some guard are tough as nails. some guard are just people.

Nakor
20-04-2009, 08:20
rulebook says their weapons are the most awesome and they are the most powerful but if you look at them all together they are much more even.


yeah not much fun playing by fluff rules because then it wouldn't be balanced. thats what the table top rules are. balancing to make things easy to play. i mean otherwise IG players would need millions more troops to play effectively, especialy with the prevalence of SM armies

see: movie marine codex

also this is the background section not the rules section, so :eek: there goes that...

do not under any circumstance try to correlate the TT rules to the fluff. guaranteed brain aneurysm. its like trying to describe colors to a blind person....no describing sound to a deaf person via hand signals, there just is no real comparison

Denise
20-04-2009, 08:30
yeah not much fun playing by fluff rules because then it wouldn't be balanced. thats what the table top rules are. balancing to make things easy to play. i mean otherwise IG players would need millions more troops to play effectively, especialy with the prevalence of SM armies

see: movie marine codex

also this is the background section not the rules section, so :eek: there goes that...

do not under any circumstance try to correlate the TT rules to the fluff. guaranteed brain aneurysm. its like trying to describe colors to a blind person....no describing sound to a deaf person via hand signals, there just is no real comparison

Well I kind of see the rules as being the overriding fluff

nathanceulemans
20-04-2009, 10:06
To quit the sidetracking here, it's true that the better part of Imperial tech is pretty advanced by today's standards (Titans, laser and plasma weaponry etc.) but it wouldn't surprise me if a society like ours today could get pretty close to the standard tech fielded by IG if it were to reverse-engineer a crashed Imperial craft.

Put it this way though. If this planet "Earth" were left by itself for more than a couple of hundred years, there's no saying what could and couldn't be built. After all, there's no radical AdMech ready to burn you for the slightest improvement on current tech...

There's dozens of ways you could spin the story, but eventually it ceases to be credible:
1. "Earth" was isolated in a similar storm as that of the Tau, it could even be the same one, and the first race they contact is a generally friendly race - Tau again (none of the other races are even remotely friendly) - and so trades and cooperates with them. If it doesn't eventually get steamrolled by the Imperium or other aliens, it continues existing, but I don't actually see it becoming a noteworthy force of its own.
2. The Imperium finds the planet and steamrolls it, purely for not being retardedly superstitious.
3. Other aliens find it, and guess what? steamrolled.
4. Chaos possesses the planet. Sounds like steamrolled again to me.
5. -the least credible- the planet's control extends and grows in a subsector not controlled by the Imperium, resists possession, doesn't find Orks for long enough to grow a bit, finds crashed vehicles/STCs, and then doesn't get destroyed by the Imperium (allies with Tau again?).

It's a nice matter to toy with the idea. But to say it grows enough to defeat the Imperium in more than just a couple of battles? DOUBT IT. After all, GW has made up enough of these situations to just state again and again that we simply wouldn't stand a chance, even with more advanced tech. The Imperium would simply throw more and more until the planet fell.

Nakor
20-04-2009, 11:59
Well I kind of see the rules as being the overriding fluff

so then whats up with being in the fluff section?

GW says SMs are the elite force of man that runs around and save the imperium on a daily basis. they are constantly fighting (bar when running to the next fight). they are slow to build their numbers up. if rules over-rode fluff then hell, i think the imperium should drop SMs all together. i mean SMs are expensive to make and maintain, plus there are only 1000 chapters of 1000 marines. what are a million soldiers that get smashed by stormtroopers worth to an empire that burns that many lives away every day? bugger all it seems. same with necrons. not so scary now are they, (bar those monoliths and what not) i think ill just blow them all up with my leman or what ever. my point is you cant just say the rules over ride the fluff without wrecking fundamental or 'given' laws in the games background. and if your just going to ignore the background well then there goes part of the fun of collecting your army and playing the game.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 12:32
On the topic of "just how awesome are IG?";
The abilities of any given IG soldier are largely determined by which world they come from. Some worlds create genetically enhanced clones purely to survive in their IG regiments, others recruit the best of the best from their already hard **** citizens. Then there are worlds where children are indoctrinated at birth and raised to be soldiers, and then there are the worlds which just conscript whoever is available when tithing time comes around.
Your S3 T3 WS3 BS3 I3 guardsman represents all of these, from Joe the Farmer who was shooting ducks before signing up right through to Smith-1872-E23 who was grown in a genevat with all the skills and abilities he'd need.

In a game system which more scope than the 10 tier stat system GW uses for WH40k you'd see some more variation. (Un)Fortunately that isn't the case, so you get the baseline :)

So just how awesome are the IG? Well depending on where they come from they range from worse than our current military to a fair bit superior.

kikkoman
20-04-2009, 23:07
Your S3 T3 WS3 BS3 I3 guardsman represents all of these, from Joe the Farmer who was shooting ducks before signing up right through to Smith-1872-E23 who was grown in a genevat with all the skills and abilities he'd need.

but now as troops the IG have... ws2 bs2 ld5 conscripts, ws3 bs3 ld7 guardsmen, ws3 bs3 ld8 stubborn (+gunslinger, psycho, or knife fighter), and ws3 bs4 ld7(8) veterans with carapace, explosives, or stealth skills.

joe farmer can be a conscript, genevat soldier can be a veteran, or a penal legionnaire depending on the nature of his skills and abilities.

Ertle
20-04-2009, 23:51
Truth is no one can estimate what the theoretical "Earth" would do technologically with the crashed ship. Any amount of technologies could be devised from a few things. Heck a bunch of concept inventions might come to fruition with the tech. And something people seem to forget is that just because they are 40,000 years in the future doesn't mean all the tech is better. Just look at the Dark Ages compared to the Roman empire went from running water to sh****** in the street.

And GW's habit of destroying logic with the rule of cool.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 09:17
but now as troops the IG have... ws2 bs2 ld5 conscripts, ws3 bs3 ld7 guardsmen, ws3 bs3 ld8 stubborn (+gunslinger, psycho, or knife fighter), and ws3 bs4 ld7(8) veterans with carapace, explosives, or stealth skills.

joe farmer can be a conscript, genevat soldier can be a veteran, or a penal legionnaire depending on the nature of his skills and abilities.

Joe the farmer starts as a conscript (weird that), becomes a standard guardsman and if he lives long enough eventually a veteran.
Genevat soldiers are unlikely to start at the conscript stage, but they will progress to veteran. Recruiting veterans doesn't really work unless you're recalling them (or a mercenary force). It's all progression, not totally different types.

Zahr Dalsk
21-04-2009, 12:54
Fresh Skitarii are, I believe, equivalent to IG veterans.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 13:57
Depends which level you're talking about, the ones in Mechanicum appear to be equivalent to Space Marines. Either way, they're not Imperial Guard are they ;)

Rockerfella
21-04-2009, 14:29
The Skitarri in Titanicus clearly aren't IG equivalents either. They're massive, nasty, scary angry dudes.

Basically.

Suicide Messiah
21-04-2009, 15:18
A modern day type of earth wouldnt last 5 miniutes in 40k.

The Imperium would slaughter billions of people just because a demon popped up on the planet. If 'we' experimented on a monkey to get our super soldier program up to scratch you wouldnt be able to move for the hordes of jobless hippies that would flood the streets.

Lord Cook
21-04-2009, 16:07
joe farmer can be a conscript, genevat soldier can be a veteran, or a penal legionnaire depending on the nature of his skills and abilities.

I agree with Rirekon. The idea that a normal, unaugmented human being wouldn't progress through the conscript/guardsmen/veteran cycle is absurd. If you want to portray your regiment as cloned veterans, then fine. But that certainly isn't supported by the great majority of the background.

Zahr Dalsk
21-04-2009, 16:36
Either way, they're not Imperial Guard are they

Skitarii, as I understand it (though it's been a while since I last read through my AdMech files), are an AdMech equivalent to IG. The basic Skitarii is akin to an IG trooper, though the tech implants (which would reduce emotion, increase discipline, allow for immediate education, etc) make them more like a veteran.

Then there are other variants, such as the vat-grown giants that are used for Praetorian heavy gun servitors.

This would vary from Forge World to Forge World, though, and even from techpriest to techpriest.

Rockerfella
21-04-2009, 16:44
Well, in mechanicum and Titanicus, they're gene enhanced psychos. All of them. Tech implants driven into their skulls to heighten aggression, and all kinds of techno implants that enable them to pop you all the easier.

And, they're described as 'hulking giants', pumped full of all kindsa enhancers and what not.

They tend to be described in these two books as having more than IG type capabilities.

I've no idea what they're like in any other background stuff though i'm afraid!

Lord_Crull
21-04-2009, 17:02
Well, in mechanicum and Titanicus, they're gene enhanced psychos. All of them. Tech implants driven into their skulls to heighten aggression, and all kinds of techno implants that enable them to pop you all the easier.

And, they're described as 'hulking giants', pumped full of all kindsa enhancers and what not.

They tend to be described in these two books as having more than IG type capabilities.

I've no idea what they're like in any other background stuff though i'm afraid!

In Dark Apostle they are essentially borg.

In the Soul Drinker novels and the Grey Knights books they are essentially well-trained guardsmen with a few cool toys.

Zahr Dalsk
21-04-2009, 17:04
I've no idea what they're like in any other background stuff though i'm afraid!

From Gav Thorpe's Explorator Warbands article:



Skitarii
The Skitarii are forge guards, human soldiers with basic bionic augmentations for communication, weapon links and sensory feeds. Some are more favoured than others, and those in the retinue of an Explorator may well have been blessed by mechanical and alchemical manipulation by their master.

Treat Skitarii as Imperial Guard veterans, although they are more likely to have wargear such as combat drugs, and also at least one body part is likely to be bionic. Their weaponry may well be implanted and they are generally issued with plenty of ammunition!

In short, still human but with enhancement. What you describe sound more like admech combat servitors.

http://secteur-calixis.fr/docs/Mechanicus_Explorator_Warbands.pdf

Rockerfella
21-04-2009, 17:13
In short, still human but with enhancement. What you describe sound more like admech combat servitors.



Yep, except what i'm describing here, in titanicus at least, are Skitarii, not combat servitors.

Cheers for the above, anyways. :)

Zahr Dalsk
21-04-2009, 17:29
Detail variation between two different authors, I suppose. Since Titanicus is by Abnett, and I haven't forgotten his silliness in Ravenor Rogue, I'm going to stick with Gav's interpretation personally :P

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 17:38
In short, still human but with enhancement. What you describe sound more like admech combat servitors.

http://secteur-calixis.fr/docs/Mechanicus_Explorator_Warbands.pdf

In Mechanicum they are definitely called Skitarii and are basically described as being hard as nails. Far as I can tell Skitarii is a term for enhanced, but not Servitor stupid, soldiers - which covers a huge range.

Zahr Dalsk
21-04-2009, 18:07
Mechanicum

Mechanicum also depicts the Void Dragon as a "cave" so I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Rockerfella
21-04-2009, 18:20
Detail variation between two different authors, I suppose. Since Titanicus is by Abnett, and I haven't forgotten his silliness in Ravenor Rogue, I'm going to stick with Gav's interpretation personally :P

And that, my friend, is the beauty of interpretation! :)

Marshal Sinclair
21-04-2009, 18:22
I believe Titanicus describes the most viscious human on human battles as Scitarii vs Dark Skitarii. They seem to be almost Arco Flagalants, but with their brains intact, and without losing the use of any limbs or anything like that. In Titanicus they seem to be much more powerful than Marines, individually. They almost drag a Warlord titan over!

kikkoman
21-04-2009, 19:23
I agree with Rirekon. The idea that a normal, unaugmented human being wouldn't progress through the conscript/guardsmen/veteran cycle is absurd. If you want to portray your regiment as cloned veterans, then fine. But that certainly isn't supported by the great majority of the background.

huh? who said joe farmer couldn't progress?

Here's Rirekron's original statement I was responding to


Your S3 T3 WS3 BS3 I3 guardsman represents all of these, from Joe the Farmer who was shooting ducks before signing up right through to Smith-1872-E23 who was grown in a genevat with all the skills and abilities he'd need.
In a game system which more scope than the 10 tier stat system GW uses for WH40k you'd see some more variation. (Un)Fortunately that isn't the case, so you get the baseline

I was pointing out there's two other troop types if he really wants to differentiate joe farmer to genevat trooper, both in stats and equipment.

Then there's storm troopers, who due to their intensive training just start with bs4 and fancy skills.

starlight
21-04-2009, 22:15
Too long... :eyebrows:

On Topic, or it gets Closed...

starlight

Random Integer
22-04-2009, 00:23
afaik the only 'enhanced' supersoldiers the IG had were officers during the great crusade.

Off the top of my head Afriel Strain soldiers and Gland Warriors are both examples of enhanced super-soldier style IG.

Edit: And somehow I missed that this topic already has 3 pages of discussion and my comment is already redundant. Feel free to delete this post mods.