PDA

View Full Version : Army List Building when your force is out



stevegb
19-04-2009, 08:11
Hi all,

For no other reason than it happens (to me and others) I thought I'd see what you guys think.

At my local game club, whether a pick up game or an organised one, I grab a side table and layout my force ready to deploy.

However, there are some people who look at it, riffle through a pile of papers and pull out a suitable list. My fav is a dark eldar player who seems to max out on dark lances when I'm playing my mechanised and (forget the name but they are kinda like heavy bolters) when I use my infantry list. I generally use the same list all the time (with some minor changes for a bit of colour) but now and then if someone has given me a real kicking recently I may try and make something specific (but this is at home without knowing what they'll have exactly - most have more than one army and all have way more than 1500pts so I don't know what will turn up and usually come unstuck as I'll have something specific and will be completely useless and get a bigger thrashing than las time).

Anyway, last week I found this taken to a new extreme. I laid my army out per normal and went to get a drink and came back and the guy is looking at what I have and literally creating his list based on my force. Funny thing is that as this is the first time I played this chap some unexpected tactics on my part got me a draw - it turned out to be a really fun game and he was a nice chap.

To make this clear - I am too bothered about this - don't do it myself but believe that their commanders just have better intel :p Having said that if I get a real beating sometimes I do think it's easy to do so with a tailored list.

What do you guys think? Do you do this, do you have this done to you? Would it bother you? Do you even care?

Once against the Dark Eldar player I did lay my all infantry guard out and then deploy space marines with an allied inquisitor with a psycannon to nerf his arcon. That was a big victory for me. Although it came at the price of having to pack away over 100 IG, so really it was my loss plus it upset him and created a bit of ill feeling for a while and had to apologise for being toady :evilgrin:

SteveGB

Panzerkanzler
19-04-2009, 08:31
I don't play ***** who tailor their lists to win easier. Either they play fair or they can **** off, that sums my opinion up pretty neatly.

*edit*
Do you really have 10k IG? That is pretty impressive.

stevegb
19-04-2009, 09:54
Oh yeah. 10000pts.

It breaks down something like this:

2500 infantry only
3000 points mechanised
4500 Worth of Tanks

I have had an 8000pt appoc game. That was pretty sweet and still didn't get to use my entire guard army.

To tie all this together I have a back story whereby my IG are used by an Inquisitor and to represent this all my heavy weapons teams and vets are made up from the old metal figs and mixed about to represent that the regiment picks up survivors from otherwise lost fights and puts them together in an elite regiment made up from vets and if the points allow use sharp shooters to give them a little elite feeling edge. All my stuff has a theme so they look together and is red/black/white for the inquisition with desert coloured fatigues.

I am not a great painter but when I play a bigger game with my Inquisition stuff and IG together and my opponent takes a couple of minutes to listen to my back story it does seem to look better on the table and the games seem more fun. Not sure why.

My armies have been a labour of love and I have spent a lot of time not only getting them together but also crafting a back story to explain why they are here and why they look rag tag (but uniform if you know what I mean) and why I use a lot of inquisition stuff.

My current project is a company of space marines that owe my inquisitor a debt of some kind, to be decided upon before they are ready to used. This way in apoc I can use any of my figs in any combo and get a proper themed army. IG/SM/DH/WH.

My real problem is that often my lists reflect more story than gaming effectiveness and once or twice an opponent has complained that my lists aren't good enough and too easy to beat. :o

Steve

sabreu
19-04-2009, 09:54
I have 6 army lists for my orks that dictate my play style for the game. I roll a d6 to determine which lists gets used after my opponent gets his army ready. This prevents spammy lists due to the randomness of my approach. Heck, I don't even know if i'm going to go horde, mechy, pseudo, 'ard, or whatever i come up with!

Eulenspiegel
19-04-2009, 09:55
As we all know, there are two different approaches towards army building:

- Build a generci all-comers list
- tailor your list towards a certain army (or even a certain build of said army)

Bot are essentially ok, as long as both players are aware of what their opponent is doing and both do the same.

Sitting down before a pick up game and write an army list depending on what the opponent is fielding definetely is an ar$ehole move.

There is an easy way around that, though:
DonŽt tell the opponent what youŽre playing, or if he already knows, donŽt tell them what youŽll be fielding.
In a small gaming group it helps to have at least to different armies to choose from.

Of cause when youŽre a very good player, dominating your group, you could give them an advantage and let them tailor their lists to beat yours.

Korras
19-04-2009, 11:00
I dislike people who tweak their list. depending on the person, I either tell them I don't appreciate it, since it gives them an unfair advantage, or I pack up. the former quite a lot more often then the latter.

sigur
19-04-2009, 11:09
Sitting down before a pick up game and write an army list depending on what the opponent is fielding definetely is an ar$ehole move.


Agreed.

I usually tend to write lists right before the game too (because I'm too lazy to write them the evening before most of the time) but always end up playing very, very similar lists with only tiny changes each time, mostly influenced by what unit I finished painting lately.

Plastic Parody
19-04-2009, 11:23
wtf?

dirty b$%tard. Simple solution is each player selects their army list prior to seeing their opponents - as I have always played it. Thats almost like someone going first in rock paper scissors the way some folk tailor their lists.

Bunnahabhain
19-04-2009, 11:25
As we all know, there are two different approaches towards army building:

- Build a generci all-comers list
- tailor your list towards a certain army (or even a certain build of said army)

Bot are essentially ok, as long as both players are aware of what their opponent is doing and both do the same.

Sitting down before a pick up game and write an army list depending on what the opponent is fielding definetely is an ar$ehole move.

There is an easy way around that, though:
DonŽt tell the opponent what youŽre playing, or if he already knows, donŽt tell them what youŽll be fielding.
In a small gaming group it helps to have at least to different armies to choose from.

Of cause when youŽre a very good player, dominating your group, you could give them an advantage and let them tailor their lists to beat yours.

Seconded. I couldn't say it any better myself. It's just not in the spirit of the game to do otherwise.

the1stpip
19-04-2009, 11:25
If you want to tailor your list, then this should be done before the game.

You have arranged a game against a Space Marine player, then tailor your force to what you think he may be taking. If you get it right, kudos. If you get it wrong, tough.

I usd to belong to a gaming club where we all did this, and it was accpted cos we knew what to expect (or didn't, if you were bluffing). But to intentionally look at someones army and tailor it there and then is just wrong.

Chaos and Evil
19-04-2009, 11:31
Because so much of the game of Warhammer 40,000 relies on the army list, allowing customisation in this way is simply unfair, IMHO.

Born Again
19-04-2009, 12:23
I have 6 army lists for my orks that dictate my play style for the game. I roll a d6 to determine which lists gets used after my opponent gets his army ready. This prevents spammy lists due to the randomness of my approach. Heck, I don't even know if i'm going to go horde, mechy, pseudo, 'ard, or whatever i come up with!

That is all kinds of awesome, especially for orks. Have a list based on each clan and dice for it at the start of the game, awesome! Might have to give that a go.

Aegius
19-04-2009, 12:45
Once against the Dark Eldar player I did lay my all infantry guard out and then deploy space marines with an allied inquisitor with a psycannon to nerf his arcon. That was a big victory for me. Although it came at the price of having to pack away over 100 IG, so really it was my loss plus it upset him and created a bit of ill feeling for a while and had to apologise for being toady :evilgrin:

SteveGB

/sigh. So this guy doesn't like the taste of his own medicine. I don't see why you should feel guilty. From what you were saying at the start of your post, he does the same thing to you regularly, why should you feel that you have done bad just because some ar$3hole can't stand the taste of their own medicine.

In my gaming group I've been trying to encourage generic list building. Some people have taken to it, but others just CBA'd to. I'm finding that now I have pretty much the same list every game, I'm getting better at learning how my army works and how each unit works in synergy. Once my opponents work out how it works and find a way to counter it, I'll be going back to the drawing board to make a whole new army. Another plus I've found from not tailoring lists is that I'm turning up with nearly fully painted armies. When I was choosing my list based on which army type I was playing, I had a rag-tag selection of partially painted units as I kept finding a new flavour of the month.

massey
19-04-2009, 13:45
It's okay to tailor lists as long as both people are doing it and it's known.

If you think someone is specifically tailoring to beat you, just lay out a different force than you're actually taking. You don't have to bring something specifically to beat them. Just put out a bunch of tanks and then actually bring marine horde. If the guy is upset, laugh at him and tell him not to try and cheat next time.

Vampiric16
19-04-2009, 13:45
I have several lists for both my nids and csm and will pick one based on what army I know I am facing. However, I choose based on what I expect from the enemy e.g. if i know i'm fighting orks/nids i choose my anti-horde list, which assumes the ork force is a typical horde rather than mek/nob biker. That way I have a slight edge, but no more so than the enemy who will likewise know what army I am taking (csm or nids) but still not know what exactly i am taking.

The_Outsider
19-04-2009, 13:46
Haven't we had this already? (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194281)

Laser guided fanatic
19-04-2009, 13:51
I once did a little experiment with the opponents permission and found that the effects of dilberate list tailoring were quite minute and so I just stick to balanced lists for different points brackets.

MrGiggles
19-04-2009, 14:38
I'll usually build my list on the spot. It's not to tweak it or anything, its rather due to the fact that aside from tourneys, I don't usually know what size of game I'm going to play before going somewhere. If I know, I'll usually pre-build a list. The other piece is that I'm able to field a pretty good variety of Ork units, so I'll usually go with what strikes my fancy at the time. If it took me more than five minutes to build a list, I'd probably have a different response.

As to tailoring my army to deal with someone else's, well, I suppose I've no issue with it if that's where we've both decided to go, but aside from that one scenario, I just don't find it terribly polite.

Hellgore
19-04-2009, 14:44
We in our club bring some three or four different lists to our gaming days and then select them either randomly or each player looks covertly through the list, chooses one and then puts it covertly in front of him and then both list are flipped over and the game starts.
Works out greatly so far and we have more fun altogether since we introduced this system.

JasonS
19-04-2009, 14:55
When I knew I was playing somebody that did this I will start to take models out that I am not using and put them ont he table. For my marines I'll set out 3 LRs and some termies, then go take a leak. When I come back and they have the list taliored to beat me, I just put them up and pull out my list of heavy troops or vice versa. I agree that you should make your list with no intel to be fair but if people want to pull crap like that just turn it on them.

TheFloatingHead
19-04-2009, 15:15
When I knew I was playing somebody that did this I will start to take models out that I am not using and put them ont he table. For my marines I'll set out 3 LRs and some termies, then go take a leak. When I come back and they have the list taliored to beat me, I just put them up and pull out my list of heavy troops or vice versa. I agree that you should make your list with no intel to be fair but if people want to pull crap like that just turn it on them.

Haha! I like that and will have to remember that for future use. For me it would be like saying "Oh yeah, I'm totally about Mech Guard, it's the only way to play..." while later I pull out an all-infantry horde!:p:wtf::p

blackroyal
19-04-2009, 16:00
At our club we just keep everything in our bag/box until people have their list created. Most times we have pre-made lists so tailoring is not a problem. It seems it is simplest to just eep everything packed up until your opponent has a list. That way there are no "you tricked me" hard feelings.

...there's $.02 for you. (US, so try not to spend it all in one place.)

Marshal Augustine
19-04-2009, 17:47
Yeah, that sucks. But then again, you -are- giving them the opportunity by putting out your army in the first place. Then again, they should not tailor, and you dont have to place your army out in front of them. As for placing out the army and then changing what you use because you know that they were tailoring, I am all for that and I think that it was well deserved! Hehe, teach them the hard way to balance their list.

On the other hand, sometimes I take out more that I have in my list (to "freak" people out), puttin out 3 LRC or something when your list only has one will make your opponent get nervous or over confident only for you not to put it on the field. Remember that you dont have to really place anything that will be in transports until they disembark. And things that deepstrike or infiltrate can also be kept under wraps.

Anyhow, just my 2c