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View Full Version : playing like real salamander,s



smug
19-04-2009, 09:38
Hi all i like to talk about playing with salamander,s and why i think they have lost there style. All the fluff is two special weapons low initiative close range combat lots of special armour. so thinking on this line i looked at the chaos codex and there was all i needed to play like the fluff

Eulenspiegel
19-04-2009, 09:46
Since when is their fluff "two special weapons per squad"?

Answer: since 4th edition, and only in 4th. That was hardly an important fluff justification for this, it was merely a trait that fitted their favoured tactics (short ranged shooting) rather good.
So it was more a result of the traits system than the Salamanders background.

You just want to play with the Chaos Codex, you want two special weapons and second hand weapons on Tactical Squads. Thus you interpret (bend) the background your way.
And I guess the ultra flexible Chosen and Terminators are also being used.
Thatīs ok if your group is used to it, but would be massively confusing for opponents in pick up games.


Now, just tell me which justification you use for taking Obliterators ...

[SD] Bob Plisskin
19-04-2009, 10:00
jeez chillax.

who cares why he wants to do it? Live and let live.

I'm no scholar on astartes so have no idea how they're supposed to fight. why not have a trip over to the background forum and see if you can come up with a good list of how they operate, what they use, formations etc etc. someone will offer you a good list of criteria I'm sure.

Grimmeth
19-04-2009, 10:04
I'd just go Tactical squads with Flamers and Meltas, the only thing that would be nice would be if standard Marines could have Heavy Flamers, but that's a very minor gripe in the grand scheme of things.
Salamanders work rather well in the fluff with the new codex (especially with Vulkan) I think if you want to use the Chaos Codex in this respect you should probably consider doing a Chaos army.
And please tell me you weren't going to use Plague Marines to get that lower Initiative...

This explains a lot about their background - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Salamanders The only thing that i can really see isn't prtrayed that well any more is Salamanders lack of fast attack and high number of Heavy Support, but that can be bought about in-game fairly easily.

Eulenspiegel
19-04-2009, 10:04
Bob Plisskin;3486295']jeez chillax.
who cares why he wants to do it? Live and let live.
Iīm not sure I understand this "internet" thing correctly, but if he doesnīt want feedback then why does he start a thread asking for it? :rolleyes:

boogle
19-04-2009, 10:06
If you just play with your gaming group. just have chat with them and see if they would be ok with you dropping their Iniative to 3 and taking a 2nd special weapon instead of a heavy weapon for your full 10 man squads.

toonboy78
19-04-2009, 10:14
i was reading an article (a few years ago now) that said even though salamnders were 'slower' that normal marines they were still pretty quick. Int 4 could range from 3.5 to 4.4. maybe in inquisitor rules then you would see the difference but not ina base 10 system. as for the second special weapon. sounds good, but what restrictions are you giving yourself (don't bother with the int 3). maybe think about heavy flamers in you tactical squads as well.

sounds good. try posting a rule set for feedback

Deetwo
19-04-2009, 10:15
Multi-melta + flamer 10man tacticals sound like very salamander to me, no need to bend the rules really.. Unless your gaming group doesn't mind you taking two special weapons, even though it's not actually legal per se.

boogle
19-04-2009, 10:17
Multi-melta + flamer 10man tacticals sound like very salamander to me, no need to bend the rules really.. Unless your gaming group doesn't mind you taking two special weapons, even though it's not actually legal per se.

That's a valid point, that's the way the 3rd Ed Salamanders boxed set was released.

Also max out of Sternguard with Flamer and/or Melta Combi Weapons and Heavy Flamers and/or Multi Meltas

Grazzy
19-04-2009, 10:35
The fluff is that they live on a high gravity world and so have a low initiative and not much fast attack. The marine codex is great for representing this with tactcials and sternguard with meltas/flamers and vulkan.

eek107
19-04-2009, 10:59
Since when is their fluff "two special weapons per squad"?

Answer: since 4th edition, and only in 4th. That was hardly an important fluff justification for this, it was merely a trait that fitted their favoured tactics (short ranged shooting) rather good.
So it was more a result of the traits system than the Salamanders background.

You just want to play with the Chaos Codex, you want two special weapons and second hand weapons on Tactical Squads. Thus you interpret (bend) the background your way.
And I guess the ultra flexible Chosen and Terminators are also being used.
Thatīs ok if your group is used to it, but would be massively confusing for opponents in pick up games.


Now, just tell me which justification you use for taking Obliterators ...

It started in 3rd ed with Codex:Armageddon when they had their own list, but IIRC you could only replace the heavy weapon with a flamer.

Grimmeth
19-04-2009, 11:07
Indeed you could, got the Armageddon Codex here in front of me.

One model may exchange his bolter with one of the following weapons: flamer at x points; heavy bolter at x pts; missile launcher at x points; multi-melta at x pts.
It then goes on to say one model may have a special weapon as usual.

Fixer
19-04-2009, 11:22
Indeed. So you could have a flamer and Melta, which was how I run my old 3rd ed tactical squads, even through you had to pay a premium on that second flamer.

The salamanders box actually came with a Plasmagun and Multimelta though.

Regular codex space marines could only take a Lascannon, Missile Launcher or heavy bolter as their second heavy weapons.

The entire setup was screwy and annoying. The multimelta was supposed to be giving Salamanders a short range advantage by giving them a multimelta instead of a Lascannon at the same price. However, a Multimelta in 3rd ed had no benefit for AP1 so it was only better than a lascannon if for some reason there was a vehicle parked within 12" of it and for all other situations (especially killing Wraithlords from a long way away) the Lascannon was better.

The entire Codex Armageddon was a bit screwy. The Salamanders were written as tough space marines with better access to technology than any other chapter but really the Salamanders had access to less weapons or technology than everyone else. They lost Lightning claws, Chain Fists, Terminator Assault Cannons and Cyclone missile launchers. No plasma pistols on assault marines etc. Then had a blanket -1 initative accross the board.

Salamanders effectively became that initative 3 army with signums in the devestator squads and with a free Thunderhammer on the chaplain.
Co-incidentally: http://perfect-design.co.uk/Damocles/victory3.jpg

Somewhat outshined by the Black Templars rules two pages to the right.

Remarkably my Modern Salamanders in 5th edition aren't too different from that 2004 C:A army. I'll probably take a picture in a moment to compare ;)

the1stpip
19-04-2009, 11:27
It's nice to see people complaining cos they GOT a nice special character. Makes a change...

Fixer
19-04-2009, 11:53
3rd Edition Codex Armageddon - 2004
http://www.perfect-design.co.uk/Damocles/victory3.jpg

5th Edition - 2009
http://www.perfect-design.co.uk/salamanders/gt_1500_large.jpg

Reg speeder proxying a Storm till the model is released.

March of time eh? :)

Grimmeth
19-04-2009, 12:20
Looking over both of the lists I can't see any reason why anyone would want to take a Codex: Armageddon Salamanders list over a 5th ed CSM list. The only 'advantage' (questionable if you coudl really call it that) being that you could take an extra flamer, but due to free upgrades etc in the new Codex and less initiative you pay a premium for that...

And as Fixer has quite nicely proved, the armies can have a very similar composition anyway!
I'm not seeing how using Codex:CSM would garner any real benefit over the Standard CSM list for Salamanders, or be any more fluffy.

Sister_Sin
19-04-2009, 13:26
Salamanders originally had infravision and a love of fire. 3rd - 4th Edition, especially the Armageddon dex, is what fixed two special weapons and I 3 in so many people's minds. The trait system of 4th kind of reinforced some of it. Just like originally they were the 8th Legion, not the 18th and they had striped yellow and black scheme as well as a dark green scheme before this rather snappier current one. Their organization into 7 companies of 12 squads instead of the 10 of 10 and their lack of FA is also fairly recent.

I'd have to dig out my older books to nail it all down but much of what people think of as Salamanders is pretty recent. And of course because GW changed them it became official and that's how they are. You go with the flow essentially.

I've played them since RT..they were my first army. The current dex does a pretty reasonable job with them on the whole.

If you want to do a Chaos dex version of them, knock yourself out...as long as your opponents haven't a problem with it and know what is what. I believe the Chaos dex has an image of a renegade that looks a lot like a corrupted Salamander...Dragon something or other, I'm not sure. One of those color pictures. Personally I find the number of loyal marines going renegade to be a bit over the top, but that's me.

Do what you like. Have fun. That's the point.

Sister Sin

Lord Damocles
19-04-2009, 13:48
'The Ork codex doesn't have enough skimmers for my liking. I'm using the Eldar codex for my Orks'


Want 2 special weapons?* - Command and Sternguard are your friends.

Want I3? - No, actually you dont. That was a stupid special rule.

Want more special gear? Marines are loaded down with Artificer Armour, 3+ Inv. saves, and Eternal Warrior. Looks like special characters are your new best friends.



*By 'special weapons, you of course mean Flamers. It couldn't possibly be that you want double Plasma could it?

Cythus
19-04-2009, 15:54
[I]

Want I3? - No, actually you dont. That was a stupid special rule.



very funny. However people couldn't just ask for extra benefits without drawnbacks could they...?

Fixer
19-04-2009, 16:16
Or you could have flipped two pages right and given your entire army effectively +1 str for that -1 iniative :)

smug
19-04-2009, 18:38
Thanks everyone for your imput. Allow me to attempt to clarify my decision to play using the chaos codex.

First of all I've built a very effective marine power build using the SM book and A friend of mine was the second highest ranking marine player in the UK Gt with it. This is simply a project for my own enjoyment as the fore mention list was in no way fluffly and just took advantage of Vulkan.

So now that is out of the way to answear Lord Damocles I use either dual melta/flamer. Also I want my veteran fire drakes to be entirely flamer equiped so chosen with 4/5 flamers is what I use instead of sternguard or a command squad.

A Multi-melta is not a close range firefight weapon it is a heavy weapon and not what I wanted from this army no heavy weapons. I also wanted the ability to assault which is not a huge option for a SM player as a tactical squad cannot cope. If you read any BL books a marine has a chainsword, bolt pistol and bolter. Chaos have this and it just feels better personaly to be able to close and charge.

No marks of chaos, demons, or chaotic things are taken. Eg. defiler, possed

The only cult troops I take are plauge marines and these are my only troops the I3 is cannon. As Salies are slightly tougher T5 works a feel no pain is the better armour and the fearless is that salimanders don't break.

It isn't that confusing anyway as the Chosen are the only things that don't have plauge stats.

Again thanks for the feedback I just didn't want to have to change rules as that would be more confusing.

Somerandomidiot
19-04-2009, 18:56
"Slightly tougher" does not T5 make, and FNP doesn't really work either... I'm all for "counts as" when it makes sense, but really? If I were going to use the chaos codex to represent salamanders, I'd go normal chaos marines with no marks- a marine is WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4, and even a comparatively slow salamander is going to out-initiative a guardsman. A normal chaos marine squad can take 2 special weapons, and still comes with the pistol/ccw you want (which I have to admit, makes far more sense than the loyalist pistol only setup).

Neftus
19-04-2009, 19:42
Plague marines make fluffy Salamanders?

Seriously?

You can do what you want but there's really no way I can see that making any sense or being better than the current codex.

Normal Salamander's arn't great in assualts so Tac squads are fine. Combi-weapons help them in short range fire-fights (which is what Tac squads do).

Plus, the SM codex has all the neat toys that you'd find in a Sally army, which Chaos doesn't have.

mughi3
19-04-2009, 21:23
I to lament the loss of character. i rather liked the -1 intitiative +1 strength on salamanders to represent nocturns higher gravity as well as thier penchant for melta/flamer with lack in the fast attack area.


I have all of the index astartes books that go into fluff detail on how the founding legions are supposed to work.

Sadly i also miss seeing white scars with hunting lances, 2 CC weapons or skilled rider. not to mention hit and run for the entire army. they did try to incorporate a few things form their original rules into khans special benefits but not enough of them.


Same goes for the iron hands with their tac squad terminator sargents, iron father(MOTF eat your heart out) venerable dread HQ and penchant for bionics.

Don't get me started on what they did to my deathwing and ravenwing.
:p


I think these were all chapter specific flavorable things that made each chapter unique in its play and look all lost in the name of streamlining.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
20-04-2009, 23:46
I to lament the loss of character. i rather liked the -1 intitiative +1 strength on salamanders to represent nocturns higher gravity as well as thier penchant for melta/flamer with lack in the fast attack area.


I have all of the index astartes books that go into fluff detail on how the founding legions are supposed to work.

Sadly i also miss seeing white scars with hunting lances, 2 CC weapons or skilled rider. not to mention hit and run for the entire army. they did try to incorporate a few things form their original rules into khans special benefits but not enough of them.


Same goes for the iron hands with their tac squad terminator sargents, iron father(MOTF eat your heart out) venerable dread HQ and penchant for bionics.

Don't get me started on what they did to my deathwing and ravenwing.
:p


I think these were all chapter specific flavorable things that made each chapter unique in its play and look all lost in the name of streamlining.

Yep, across all the races as well it just took a lot of the variation out, a lot of stuff can be replicated but special rules were... special! The idea of a character allowing certain traits in the SM codex was a big insult really, giving them some sort of option, unlike chaos legions, ork clans and craftworlds that are all extinct! I mean, dont incorporate the craftworld stuff into the eldar codex because it's too confusing or too overpowered or whatever but then give it to marines instead?! I know its not the same and the changes aren't as drastic but still it stinks a bit.

Sister_Sin
21-04-2009, 00:44
The IA article in WD had special rules to include cheaper Terminators as the Salamanders are said to have quite a few more of these than most other Chapters. But that didn't last long.

As of the Armageddon Codex that came out afterward, things changed...again:

Salamanders got -1 Initiative due to being 'Sturdy' and had to deduct 1" from any advance or followups they made.

They had "Self-Reliant' so their models never had to make a Last Man Standing test.

They had 'Never Give Up' meaning they could always choose to fight one last turn even if the scenario was fixed in length.

For Wargear they had Salamander's Mantle which stopped Instant Death, they had cheaper Master Crafted Weapons, Artificer Armor could be used for any non-Independent Character, and any character could have a Signum, not just Techmarines. Their vehicles and dreadnoughts could have Reinforced Ceramite Armor which robbed melta weapons of their extra penetration dice.

I wish they'd kept the old infravision capabilities and the artificer armor bits. Still, all of that above, from the IA articles in WD right through to now is relatively recent stuff...and it will change again of course. From a personal standpoint I dislike having a single character determine the flavor of the army; there are so many Vulkan He'stan's out there it's ridiculous. Oh well. Things will change again. They always do.

So, do what you like, in the end. As long as your opponents don't care, have a blast.

Sister Sin