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Penguni7
20-04-2009, 03:14
I'm trying to choose between High elves or Dark elves here are the reasons. The High elves are cool because of their shooting and magic ( the spearmen fighting in three ranks are cool too :D ) but they are also very low toughness and strength. the Dark elves are cool because of their crossbows and their Cold-One Knights but i doubt my girl freind who i play against will like the way the women are dressed.



I don't know what to do are the shooting skills of high elf's good enough to compinskate for their bad HTH. are the dark elves good enough with out the women?:confused::confused::confused:

LKHERO
20-04-2009, 03:57
Here's the break down:

Movement wise, both armies are relatively the same. The only difference is that Dark Elves have better manuverbility due to their Dark Riders and Shades. +1 Dark Elves.

Magic, both armies have relatively different, but equally power magic phases. High Elves have flexibility in their lores in which they can pick 9 lores in the game with the mages (8 from the book, 1 of their own). High Magic is defensive based. Dark Elves can only pick the killy magic and their own lore of Black Magic is testament to this. Dark Elf mages can also cast with any number of magic die. Moving on.. so in terms of magic items, Dark Elves are far better. Pendant of Kalaeth (inverse ward) and Ring of Hotek (all spells directed 12" of the user miscasts on any doubles) are two of the most undercosted items in the entire game. +1 Dark Elves.

Shooting. Dark Elves win here, no contest. Shades are BS5 and they shoot extremely well, Dark Riders are core, fast-cav with RxB and Repeaters work the same way as High Elf shooting. +1 Dark Elves.

Combat. This is where they really differ. High Elves have Always Strike First on all their units, which means they will strike in combat regardless of whether they were charged or not. Dark Elves have Hatred, which means they get to re-roll all missed hits in the first round of combat. I would say this is a tie.

3-0 Dark Elves. Go with them.

MTUCache
20-04-2009, 04:01
... are the dark elves good enough with out the women?

Like most situations, I think they're better off without them. :p

Seriously though, a couple of sorceresses are all the females you need in a DE army. The Witch Elves are easily out (plenty of better special choices anyway), and the Hags are a rather specialized character choice that really aren't necessary unless you're building your entire army around them.

BattleofLund
20-04-2009, 04:04
Go with Dark Elves! Slave Elves (aka 'High' Elves) are only fit for people who are interested in curtains in real life. ;)

Druchii most certainly can do well without Witch Elves, and apparently there is now a fashion for abstaining from Dark Magic too. Plenty of anti-magic Magic Items to choose from; though personally I wouldn't be without Stabbity (my Dark Elf Sorceress).

Dark14
20-04-2009, 04:08
high elf shooting is under rated it can wreck not because of the shots numbers but that its hitting at far range and on low numbers. Also curse of arrow attractions nasty.

Also on HE they all always strike first..... i dont know why people overlook it. When i play my DE people complain for cheese at 1 unit with an ASF banner. plus swordmasters with 2st5attacks hitting first will hurt.

what dark elves have better of it attacks. All there units are offensive there is no anvil in this force it just cleaves and kills. It can be very goos without any women if thats an issue to but i prefer a khainite force(Aka lots of the naked types).

honostly its a toss up witha slight weight in the dice to the dark elves for how good they are but both are very effective at whatever you want them to do either combat/magic/shooting.

The Red Scourge
20-04-2009, 06:27
Go with wood elves. They'll beat the other elves any day :)

m1s1n
20-04-2009, 06:38
In these threads, when it's down to a choice of two, I always seem to ask myself... why not pick both? I mean, I always end up buying an army that I'm interested in the long run, so why not just throw out the cash, stimulate the economy, and double the amount of plastic figurines sitting unpainted in a shoe-box stashed away in the closet?

selone
20-04-2009, 19:23
To buck the course, I say to you high elves! Don't jump on the hydra train, sir!

bob_the_small
20-04-2009, 19:26
I would say Dark Elves (but im byast towards them) but high elves have awesome HTH combat!

lakissov
20-04-2009, 19:33
High elves all ASF, which makes them a more forgiving army than dark elves. However, they are less flexible, and that means that a good general will do better with dark elves than high elves.

Also, dark elves are able do go to greater degrees of cheese than high elves - which to me is a bad thing (because it provokes some losers to start crying that it's your army that won you the game, even if you only used a single special and a single rare slot in a 2000 point game, and no lord level characters; they will still cry that DE are cheesy, but, well, with a bit of resolve you'll learn to ignore such whiners).

All in all, if you want to learn the game quicker, and want to become a good general, use DE. Just restrain yourself from using black guard, hydrae, cold one knights and dragons in your first 50 games. You'll lose a lot, but you'll also learn to use tactics. And then you can unleash the doom upon your enemies.

LKHERO
20-04-2009, 19:48
High elves all ASF, which makes them a more forgiving army than dark elves.

Seriously overrated. I'd rather take hatred towards all things that also effects your mount over ASF any day. This is where good generals will take advantage of and kill other armies easily.

Saying that High Elves are easy because the entire army ASFs is rather rubbish.

only joking...
20-04-2009, 22:00
I would say Dark Elves (but im byast towards them) but high elves have awesome HTH combat!

Yor mean biast ;)

As far as the topic goes, if this is a first army or your not an experienced player I would go with high elves as a modicum of tacticul naievity will not be punished as badly if you were playing DE.

Ertle
20-04-2009, 22:17
Definitely go High Elves. For beginners they dont have many special rules and ASF is nice but not as much of a crutch as army wide hatred.

Amnar
20-04-2009, 22:37
Definitely go High Elves. For beginners they dont have many special rules and ASF is nice but not as much of a crutch as army wide hatred.

Are you being serious?

lakissov
20-04-2009, 22:47
Nah, not easy. They're still squishy T3 elves with next to no armour.
Still, ASF takes a part of the tactics away by making the army more forgiving - because you don't have to learn to get the charges off with your infantry (infantry is what benefits most in the Asur list from the rule; especially elite infantry). As for getting charges off with cavalry - that's easier due to their good movement rate of 8.

With dark elves, you simply have to learn more to be efficient - because your own infantry needs to get charges instead of receive them (this is why I advised also not to take Black Guard in the first 50 games - this helps the person to concentrate on manoeuvring to get the charges instead of receiving them - cause any other druchii infantry will easily get obliterated if the general allows it to be charged; that's the beauty of druchii to me - the steep learning curve)

Cats Laughing
20-04-2009, 23:29
Yor mean biast ;)

You mean he's a Celtic monster?


béist, biasd
[Scottish Gaelic beast; cf. Latin bestia; Old Irish bíast]

A Scottish Gaelic word that may describe any of several folkloric characters, the arrachd, fuath, or muileartach.

:)

I think you meant biased?

Anyway, I would pick the army that you most enjoy painting. The rules are similar enough in the end (M5, good WS/BS and T3) that the little things that are different shouldn't make a huge difference.

Both can be ugly in the shooting and magic phases, and both can be decent but fragile in melee.

I'm not saying there is no difference, but honestly the difference between HE and DE is much less than the difference between those two and any other army (including WE). DE need the charge and therefore are, imho, a bit harder to play well. HE can "sometimes" survive being charged, but if you're letting your opponent pick and choose his targets, you'll die just like a DE player that lets himself get charged.

Heck, I've got a friend who has marauder era HE/DE all painted in the same scheme, and the only thing that really changes as he switches between armies are the names of the units, magic items taken, and point costs.
(oh, and he lets you know the bows are really RXBs and visaversa, depending on unit).

Ertle
20-04-2009, 23:39
Are you being serious?

Ever go up against witch elves with hatred? yeah not fun.

WhiteKnight
20-04-2009, 23:59
Alright here are the pros and cons of a HE and DE army.

HE -
A dragon in <2000 points??? Madness!!!
Lots more special choices with only 2 core slots to fill in 2k and only 1 in <2000!!
Dragon princes!!!
4 rare choices in 2k and 2 in less than 2k.
Great elite infantry
Magic is one of the best in the game
Tyrion and Teclis kick ass!
ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST
Cons:
T3, low armor, low str, very small number wise compared to other armies when including a dragon

Dark Elves:
Hatred is crazy
Hydras are cheese but very nice indeed.
Very nice shooting
Very offensive magic
Nasty magic items
Cold one knights
Special choices are great
Dark riders are great
More monsters

Cons:
no 'real' anvils in the army, just choppy choppy CC units ( besides black guard), T3, not as much defensive magic going around.

Here are some of the same things both armies have

DE and HE have....

Good magic items, RBT's kick so much ass, great monsters, elite infantry and cavalry own, they aren't tree huggers!!! (sorry wood elves)

What I do is I do a co-working paint job that works for HE and DE. I use blood red for armor, and white for cloth. Lots of badab black and dark inks in the army so iut can look dark elfy too. All you have to do is mix models together and you have a DE and HE army! Heck, you just need a hydra to make it more dark elfy if you want.

LKHERO
21-04-2009, 00:27
With dark elves, you simply have to learn more to be efficient - because your own infantry needs to get charges instead of receive them (this is why I advised also not to take Black Guard in the first 50 games - this helps the person to concentrate on manoeuvring to get the charges instead of receiving them - cause any other druchii infantry will easily get obliterated if the general allows it to be charged; that's the beauty of druchii to me - the steep learning curve)

Their steep learning curve died with the new book.

LKHERO
21-04-2009, 00:31
no 'real' anvils in the army, just choppy choppy CC units ( besides black guard)

They have one of the best anvils in the game.

Black Guard are utterly and painfully ridiculous for their point cost. Immune to Psychology and Stubborn on a 9, 2 attacks each at WS5, S4, I6 with Hatred? They also have the ability to add an Assassin to the ranks. Not to mention they can take a ASF banner with Ring of Hotek on their Champion for army-wide Magical protection. 44% chance to miscast any spell within 12" of the unit if you throw 3 die.

I compare High Elves to sharp, surgical knife and Dark Elves to a hammer. Don't get me wrong; High Elves are a great army, but Dark Elves definitely have the ability to win more games.

WhiteKnight
21-04-2009, 05:27
I see it more as High Elves being a butcher knife while the Dark Elves being a ballping hammer. Both are killer, but the hammer is more sturdy.

Penguni7
28-04-2009, 04:48
Thx4 advice i kinda like the shooting aspects of those armys along with their calvary is their a way to mesh these in an army good kith those.


P.S.

This is atleast my 4th army and i may just stay with my brett's if i can get some new tactics.

Amnar
28-04-2009, 19:07
Ever go up against witch elves with hatred? yeah not fun.

Sneeze on them and they die.... paper is more durable...

I play Dark Elves myself, they hit hard, but have zero durability. They are a glass cannon defined.

Amnar
28-04-2009, 19:11
They have one of the best anvils in the game.

Black Guard are utterly and painfully ridiculous for their point cost. Immune to Psychology and Stubborn on a 9, 2 attacks each at WS5, S4, I6 with Hatred? They also have the ability to add an Assassin to the ranks. Not to mention they can take a ASF banner with Ring of Hotek on their Champion for army-wide Magical protection. 44% chance to miscast any spell within 12" of the unit if you throw 3 die.

I compare High Elves to sharp, surgical knife and Dark Elves to a hammer. Don't get me wrong; High Elves are a great army, but Dark Elves definitely have the ability to win more games.

Both armies are extremely fragile, I don't think that can be stressed enough. Both the knife and hammer are made of glass :-P

Shooting makes elves cry.....

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 19:28
Both armies are extremely fragile, I don't think that can be stressed enough. Both the knife and hammer are made of glass :-P

Shooting makes elves cry.....

I don't call Hydras fragile, I'm sorry.

Maybe if we can take Sun Dragons as rare, give them a SX breath that modifies with wounds and Regen and make them 175 points, then yeah I'd agree.

I'm just bitter because Dark Elves were designed poorly this edition, to a point where a completely ***** can win with them. They are the polar opposite of the skill and precision required to play with them in 6th edition. Rubbish I tell you! RUBBISH.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 19:37
I don't call Hydras fragile, I'm sorry.

Maybe if we can take Sun Dragons as rare, give them a SX breath that modifies with wounds and Regen and make them 175 points, then yeah I'd agree.

Only if hydras gain flight and an additional point of toughness, as well as the option to be taken as a mount by a sorceress.

:rolleyes:

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 19:38
Only if hydras gain flight and an additional point of toughness, as well as the option to be taken as a mount by a sorceress.

:rolleyes:

You said that as if I could actually take Sun Dragons as rares.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 19:40
Wasn't taking a Sun Dragon as a rare one of the things that you said you wanted?

DarkTerror
28-04-2009, 19:57
I don't call Hydras fragile, I'm sorry.

Maybe if we can take Sun Dragons as rare, give them a SX breath that modifies with wounds and Regen and make them 175 points, then yeah I'd agree.

I'm just bitter because Dark Elves were designed poorly this edition, to a point where a completely ***** can win with them. They are the polar opposite of the skill and precision required to play with them in 6th edition. Rubbish I tell you! RUBBISH.

I wouldn't call Dark Elves the polar opposite of requiring skill and precision to play. DoC require the least of all armies.

Dark Elves can fail in unskilled hands easily. You can't just go after any target you choose, or you'll lose half your army. Only one unit seems fail-proof, which is the Black Guard. However, an unskilled person would let a unit of BG get march blocked, shot and otherwise out-maneuvered.

No skill and precision? That's a vast overstatement.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:03
I wouldn't call Dark Elves the polar opposite of requiring skill and precision to play. DoC require the least of all armies.

Dark Elves can fail in unskilled hands easily. You can't just go after any target you choose, or you'll lose half your army. Only one unit seems fail-proof, which is the Black Guard. However, an unskilled person would let a unit of BG get march blocked, shot and otherwise out-maneuvered.

No skill and precision? That's a vast overstatement.

I'm used to seeing 2x Hydra and a Dragon and a large unit of BG.

It's tournament effective but requires very little skill to play. Same could be said about an all Khorne army with a lot of Flesh Hounds, BT and multiple Heralds.

You have to try and build a weaker list to obtain the precision needed of Dark Elves before the new book. In the old book, you didn't have any option. That's all I'm saying.

isidril93
28-04-2009, 20:04
while high elves are "easier" to use they both can be tactically enjoyable

Aurellis
28-04-2009, 20:08
I'm used to seeing 2x Hydra and a Dragon and a large unit of BG.

It's tournament effective but requires very little skill to play. Same could be said about an all Khorne army with a lot of Flesh Hounds, BT and multiple Heralds.

You have to try and build a weaker list to obtain the precision needed of Dark Elves before the new book. In the old book, you didn't have any option. That's all I'm saying.

Just because Dark Elf players now have the option, it doesn't mean they exercise their ability to use it.

It's like Empire, they're not an easy army to play because they can take Karl Franz and 2 Steam Tanks in a list...

bob_the_small
28-04-2009, 20:15
Just because Dark Elf players now have the option, it doesn't mean they exercise their ability to use it.

It's like Empire, they're not an easy army to play because they can take Karl Franz and 2 Steam Tanks in a list...

He has a point.. just because people CAN take beardy armies doesnt mean they do....

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:18
Just because Dark Elf players now have the option, it doesn't mean they exercise their ability to use it.

It's like Empire, they're not an easy army to play because they can take Karl Franz and 2 Steam Tanks in a list...

Fair enough. But one of the ways I rank an army by sheer power is by how often the player has to purposely handicap himself from building an optimal list because it'll borderline cheese. You have to try to gimp yourself. Why? Why should a player EVER do that? Such is the same of some of the new books.

For Dark Elves, this happens a lot because of how many amazing, powerful, cost effective units and items are present.

So to answer the original poster: If you want an cost-effective, powerful army with lots of choices, go with Dark Elves.

whiskeytango
28-04-2009, 20:23
amen Aurellis. I have never used a dragon, refuse to use the hydra, and have only fielded BG twice, both times w/o ASF. It makes it harder to win, but so much more satisfying.

To OP, go with what ever army is more aesthetically pleasing to you, but which ever you choose, stick away from using the stuff you know is cheese for awhile. Just cause you can take a dragon at <2000pts or a hydra anytime doesnt mean you should.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:35
I have never used a dragon, refuse to use the hydra, and have only fielded BG twice, both times w/o ASF. It makes it harder to win, but so much more satisfying.

And that's exactly what I mean.

The hallmark of a poorly designed army book - where it forces the player to gimp himself in order to enjoy his games.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 20:54
The only thing in the Dark Elf list I would say is a "you're stupid if you don't take it" option is the first hydra. After that, every other item on the list is a choice that needs to be thought about. There ARE very good reasons not to take the second hydra, a dragon, and a unit of black guard. Yes, those are all good options. But they're only options. Two RBTs make a better "all-comers" choice than the second hydra, imo. And a dragon means that you're probably taking a dreadlord instead of a level 4 sorceress (otherwise you limit your casting by getting caught up in close combat). Additionally, dragons have their own issues when used and can be trapped and killed with minimal loss by the right combination of units and tactics. As for Black Guard... there are lots of other places to sink the points needed for the unit, most of which create a more versatile and flexible army.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:56
The only thing in the Dark Elf list I would say is a "you're stupid if you don't take it" option is the first hydra. After that, every other item on the list is a choice that needs to be thought about. There ARE very good reasons not to take the second hydra, a dragon, and a unit of black guard. Yes, those are all good options. But they're only options. Two RBTs make a better "all-comers" choice than the second hydra, imo. And a dragon means that you're probably taking a dreadlord instead of a level 4 sorceress (otherwise you limit your casting by getting caught up in close combat). Additionally, dragons have their own issues when used and can be trapped and killed with minimal loss by the right combination of units and tactics. As for Black Guard... there are lots of other places to sink the points needed for the unit, most of which create a more versatile and flexible army.

What about Magical Items?
Or are you strictly talking about units.

I'd say anyone's stupid for not taking Pendant, Ring or a Hydra in anything 1500 and above.

Gaargod
28-04-2009, 21:10
[QUOTE=only joking...;3492085]Yor mean biast ;)
QUOTE]

Actually he means Biased (try not to criticise someone's spelling unless you are 100% certain of the correction at least)


And to be fair, you don't actually need to take DE cheese to win. The infamous Suicide Elves tactic which was written about in a long, funny and very well written tournament report.(i can't find it anyone, anyone got a link) which did quite well - many many shots (and admittedly a hydra).


Mind you, trying to go without at least some of them does make it hard. When it comes down to it, they're still elves with low armour.

whiskeytango
28-04-2009, 21:16
im going to have to disagree about everything except the pendant, which i admit is in all of my lists. 1st, I would never take the ring in a magic centric army, cause you run the risk of way too much overlap. Who would you put it on? BG or COK, ie units you want in combat which could gimp your casting pretty severly. 2nd, a hydra is far from necessary. Its thinking like that that gets DE players branded as skill-less cheesemongers.

I've never felt like I was gimping myself for not using the units i dont use, only that im not taking units that dont appeal to me because they require almost no thought to use. DE should be about out-thinking/unfair fights, not point and click monsters and uber units. You're cheating yourself out of alotof satisfaction if you use them that way.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 21:31
I'd say anyone's stupid for not taking Pendant, Ring or a Hydra in anything 1500 and above.


As I said, you always take at least one Hydra. The second is an option that should only be used if you know that you're facing a specific opponent (such as Vampire Counts).

I take the ring, but I usually don't take the pendent because it doesn't fit with my army. The last time I saw someone use a pendent was when my assassin popped out of a spear brick and KBed his dreadlord atop his dragon (he failed his ward save, but had made enough ward saves earlier that he was about due for a failure). Since the dreadlord and dragon had earlier been hit with Word of Pain, the dragon largely whiffed his attacks (got one wound on the assassin) and fled. The last time that I used the Pendant myself was probably when my dreadlord and dragon got shot to death by skinks. The Pendant doesn't do much good against S2 Poison...

That's also the last time that I used my dragon, iirc.

I do like the regenerating armor, though.

Yes, the ring is a pain to deal with at times. But it has a limited range (12 inches), and you've still got a very good chance of getting your spell off if you're only using two dice. Personally, I'd rather deal with the ring than with something like the Cupped Hands. With the Ring, I'm making a gamble and it's my own fault if I suffer the consequences. With the Cupped Hands, my opponent screws up and I end up suffering for it.

The Ring ALSO interferes with any casting by the Dark Elf player. And Dark Lore is a pretty potent lore. So a Dark Elf needs to be careful about where the ring is in relation to spells that are being cast and can be handicapped by it. If you see your Dark Elf opponent roll doubles on a spell cast, then you should feel free to remind him or her that they may need to check for the distance from the caster to the Ring. That's probably the biggest drawback on the Ring. If the battle starts to focus around a single location, then Dark Lore starts to suffer as a result since it's a highly offensive lore (the exception being Black Horror, which isn't affected by the Ring or MR due to the way that it works).

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 21:44
I think because of the ring, that's why we see so many monster lists, shadestars and all Cav armies.

It's too good for what it does. A player is forced to cast with 2 die because 3 die means a near 50% chance your Mage is going to miscast.

whiskeytango
28-04-2009, 21:52
Well i have to admit thats exactly the reason i think there should be more items like the Ring. I feel like that the magic phase has slipped way too far from ”support” to ”game winning”. Proof of which is seen in the almost compulsory scroll caddy. More stuff like the ring could mean proliferation of more varied lists, instead the set-ups you always see being used.

Though they would need a price hike, cause unit champs shouldnt get to use such powerfull items.

Cats Laughing
29-04-2009, 00:03
Well i have to admit thats exactly the reason i think there should be more items like the Ring. I feel like that the magic phase has slipped way too far from ”support” to ”game winning”. Proof of which is seen in the almost compulsory scroll caddy. More stuff like the ring could mean proliferation of more varied lists, instead the set-ups you always see being used.

Though they would need a price hike, cause unit champs shouldnt get to use such powerfull items.

People have been claiming that scroll caddies were mandatory since the beginning of dispell scrolls. So the conclusion to be drawn is that magic has always been overpowered, which is debatable.

I've taken entirely mage-less and magic defense-less armies and walked all over opponents that spent ooodles and ooodles on their magic users.

I've likewise played games where I've "ruled" the magic phase and done little true damage (due to the randomness of spell choice, casting dice, and those annoying "does d6 str X hits" spells that invariably roll 1).

I think the fact the magic users can only use the power dice they bring to the game(and the very few in the pool), and only cast each spell once per phase(and only in their turn), and can't cast after casting a "remains in play" (without canceling the RiP spell), on top of getting random spells and having to beat casting costs with casting dice limited by level, is more than enough to limit magic to a part of the game without dominating it.

Sure, you can win a game in the magic phase. But you can also win it in the shooting and close combat phases too. Is melee supposed to be the only game winning phase? (in my experience the people who complain about magic almost always also complain about shooting)

I pray for a Ring of Whoopars that causes all close combat 'to hit' rolls of 1, 3, and 5 within 12" of the bearer to be inflicted upon the attacker. So I can have my shooty/magic army unbothered by people that take too many melee units.

whiskeytango
29-04-2009, 04:32
Magic does something that other things cant though: it can drastically effect the other damage dealing phases, and i dont just mean by killing guys. No amount of shooting or close combat can make a unit appear out of no where, fly, march, keep a unit from shooting, give regeneration or ward saves, or best of all, whisk a unit of the table with out dealing any wounds or allowing any saves. I play Tzeentch Warriors, and i still think IG is ridiculous.

Its silly to say magic doesnt dominate. Have you ever played against VC, DoC, magic heavy Tzeentch WoC or DE, or Teclis? The things those very prominent lists can do with magic is absurd.

And no combat isnt the game winning phase, movement is.

Kill-Freedom
29-04-2009, 04:46
Both armies are good and can be built to suit many purposes, go with the one you think is best for you

Cats Laughing
29-04-2009, 10:06
Magic does something that other things cant though: it can drastically effect the other damage dealing phases, and i dont just mean by killing guys. No amount of shooting or close combat can make a unit appear out of no where, fly, march, keep a unit from shooting, give regeneration or ward saves, or best of all, whisk a unit of the table with out dealing any wounds or allowing any saves. I play Tzeentch Warriors, and i still think IG is ridiculous.

Its silly to say magic doesnt dominate. Have you ever played against VC, DoC, magic heavy Tzeentch WoC or DE, or Teclis? The things those very prominent lists can do with magic is absurd.

And no combat isnt the game winning phase, movement is.

They're all just different phases of the game. Movement also plays its part in winning games. Combat can be the winning phase, and I've won most of my games through it, regardless of how much magic or shooting I've brought or faced.

Whining about magic is like whining about any other aspect of the game. If you don't want to face magic there's always WAB.

Kill-Freedom
29-04-2009, 10:10
All phases play a part in winning of the game, all important, you **** up in one, your going to screw yourself over in others.......

I kaelis ra
29-04-2009, 17:14
Well let me just say that to me Druchii are the REAL warrior elves regardless off rules these are the warrior caste off old Ulthuan and they follow the true heir to the throne of all elfkin son of great Anaeron himself better dressers by far and their chicks are hotter :D.They are the only fraction of all elves who posses the passion and will to have a shot at continued survival .Hail Lord Malekith Hail Kheila Mensha Khaine. :D PS: yes imm a fanboys (HE are cool army 2 but there core models are utter crap atm immo but even iff all there core were spiffy new plastic i would never play m vs my beloved Druchii)....(i would buy them tho :chrome:)

DarkTerror
29-04-2009, 17:22
They're all just different phases of the game. Movement also plays its part in winning games. Combat can be the winning phase, and I've won most of my games through it, regardless of how much magic or shooting I've brought or faced.

Whining about magic is like whining about any other aspect of the game. If you don't want to face magic there's always WAB.

Sorry, but :wtf:?

Isn't whining the only option he has if he still wants to play the game? Seriously. He can either A) not play, which isn't really an option as he does want to play, B) Whine to express his grief, or C) Become an inner ball of frustration, hoping GW changes their minds while nobody speaks up.

Come on Cats Laughing. Telling him to go elsewhere if he wants change is ridiculously stupid.

Cats Laughing
29-04-2009, 19:59
Sorry, but :wtf:?

Isn't whining the only option he has if he still wants to play the game? Seriously. He can either A) not play, which isn't really an option as he does want to play, B) Whine to express his grief, or C) Become an inner ball of frustration, hoping GW changes their minds while nobody speaks up.

Come on Cats Laughing. Telling him to go elsewhere if he wants change is ridiculously stupid.

I've seen Gav here, but still, this is mostly a public forum of people who don't write the rules for GW. So whining to us does nothing but make you a whiner. If he wants real change he could try to contact GW directly, or try to start a "movement" of gamers (and he could start that here), but just whining doesn't really start "movements."

Btw, I was merely pointing out his other option if he feels that magic is too unbearable. It may not be the best option, depending on his gaming climate, but it's not stupid to mention it.

whiskeytango
29-04-2009, 20:13
@cats laughing: ha. Im sure you've never expressed any sort of grievance with the game at all. Thats the only way I can figure you can take this holier than thou position and not feel like a hypocrite. Seriously dude, stop trolling and contribute something to the conversation.

Cats Laughing
29-04-2009, 21:13
Think about it for a second.
How much fun would it be if there were more items in the game that shut down complete phases?

Ring of NoShooty: All models targetting a unit or making ranged attack from within 12" of the bearer hit themselves with their ranged attack rather than their target if their "to hit" roll is a 1, 3, or 5.

Ring of NoMelee: All models making melee attacks within 12" of the bearer hit themselves and not their target if their "to hit" roll is a 1, 3, or 5.

Ring of NoMovement: All models within 24"(longer range to get similiar effect to above rings and ring of Hotek) of the bearer may only move if they roll an 8+ on a 2d6.

All of the above shut down a complete phase of the game as much as the Ring of Hotek does, and none would be very fun to play against.

Why shutting down the magic phase is ok, but not any of the others is something I really question. They're all part of the game and should have a chance to affect the outcome. Almost any race can make an army that dominates a certain phase (except Dwarves I guess). If an opponent dominates in one phase, you take your lumps and try to get yours in the other phases.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the OP's question about which army to choose was answered on pages 1-2 of this thread, so it seems that the conversation was drifting towards the fairness of certain DE choices/options.

The Ring of Hotek seems ok on the surface, since it shuts down(or at least hampers) the powerful DE magic too, but as the DE player can easily compensate (by not taking magic or by cheesing out the targeting/range rules of the Ring), it does seem rather good for the points.

Whether the OP should take an army based on its cheese quotient is up to him/her, but I find that you don't stick with any army just cause it's special rules are cool, so they should probably go with the army with cooler models and background (which is entirely personal opinion so shouldn't need our input).

Alternatively, just play both DE and HE, picking which ever models look coolest and painting in a color scheme that you like and can drift either way. You could take DE Spearmen, HE Phoenix Guard, DE Executioners, and painted in your own colors, it would be easy enough to 'proxy' back and forth between DE and HE. You'd really only have certain models that couldn't crossover easily(Witch Elves, Harpies, White Lions, and Hydra come to mind).

Basically, my opinion on which Elf army to take, is to not choose and just play both.

whiskeytango
29-04-2009, 21:30
er... howling winds, thorek and to a lesser extent normal anvils, raised zombies. Theres 3 things right there (all of them in a way magic) that can effectively shut down 1 of your opponents phases. I realize these are very specific examples, but so is the ring. Im not trying to start a ridiculous argument, its just that i started playing a couple editions ago when magic wasnt quite so devastating, so maybe im just living in the past.