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View Full Version : Good choice for MSU? (another army choice help thread)



Bento
20-04-2009, 07:37
Hi there. This is another one of those help me pick an army posts. Before I actually talk about the armies I like, I might as well point out the things I'm concerned/looking for.

1. After reading WotR and playing other massed battle games, I'm not after a horde army, because the idea of painting up a whole bunch of models where every five of them basically acts as a marker for +1 CR doesn't appeal.

2. I'm a mediocre painter at best with low enough motivation to paint, so things with robes and gemstones that lend themselves to blending aren't going to be a very good choice for me.

3. Being the case that I'm not a fan of painting, but have made a vow that I'm not going to play a game unless I've made some progress painting, I'd like to go for something that's lower on the model count side of things.

4. I actually like 'good' or at least neutral sorts of civilizations. Or ones I can understand or empathise with to some extent. Granted, it'd be pretty boring if Warhammer were just good vs. evil (doing that with WotR anyway), but I like getting into my background and Dark Elves (which fit my other criteria) just don't do it for me.

I've got a few armies in mind, and I've listed spome things I like and don't like.

1. Lizardmen. Dinosaurs are awesome. Seems like a list that needs a fair number of metal figs to do well though. Metal figs that are not only pricey, but large/fiddly, and thus need more care in handling and transport. That said, I really do like the Razordon models, and other than Terradons and Kroxigors everything else I'd want is in plastic. Do Saurus lend themselves to MSU play though? They certainly seem too pricey to just sit around contributing 1/5th of a rank bonus.

2. Wood Elves. I have a battalion + of them, but I just can't get into them. I think partially as a new player they're a bit on the hard side to get used to, because they really do seem to be glass cannons. Also their background isn't doing much for me; it really seems to push the insular vicious inbred angle, an angle which leaves little reason to be found anywhere outside of Loren. I mean, I was thinking maybe I could do something using Avelorn or the Drakwald, or something about a wandering band hunting Beastmen in the wilderness across the Old World, but the army book is pretty uninspiring.

3. Bretonnians. They're kind of tempting; I'd probably play mostly knights, with small units, hoping to get good charges off. Not too many people around play them, which is also a bit of a bonus. Don't actually LIKE the Bretonnian aesthetic though, and I'd be tempted to use Empire Knights as counts-as instead, and I'm not sure how that would go over, in general. They have a powerful and wide ranging navy, so it gives them the capability to project power elsewhere. The grim and corrupt nobility angle can be tempered a bit with the knightly honour thing.

That's about it. Orcs and Beasts also appeal on a barbarian sort of side (and besides, the Beastmen are just fighting for survival against hairless freaks with boomsticks), but they're way too hordey. I must apologise for being so long winded, but I tend to be really flighty with my minis choices, and wind up with a bunch of half painted minis. For once, I'd like to commit to building a flavourful force that I like, that's not going to do terribly badly in average friendly games, nor break the bank.

Right now I'm leading to Warriors of Chaos, or maybe Lizards, but it really depends on if there's a decent shot at making them work as elite lists.

Gork or Possibly Mork
20-04-2009, 08:13
I say go with Lizzies. Most of the stuff is plastic ( Saurus, ColdOne Cav, Skinks, Stegadons ). There pretty easy to paint. Saurus can work in MSU but they have to be supported well.

Warriors of Chaos are nice but many people consider them a bit a one trick pony. I kind of agree but they are more versitile than most people make them out to be. I wouldn't say their very easy to paint. Lots of details on the models. They are elite though.

If you want the easiest army to paint it would have to be OgreKingdoms.
Besides gnoblars you could paint up a battalion box in no time. They are however not very competitive or takes alot of skill to get good with. Even then there are a few things in other armies they have no answer for.

sulla
20-04-2009, 08:45
After reading your summary Bento, my thoughts were warriors of chaos and lizards.

I mostly agree with the above too, lizards are slightly more balanced and have more playstyles than chaos, I would say try lizards first.

The Red Scourge
20-04-2009, 08:45
Since you don't care much for painting, try dipping.

And since you do not like any of the models besides lizardmen go with those.

AlmightyNocturnus
20-04-2009, 09:33
MSU, you say? Don`t wantto paint many models? Then you have to go Ogre Kingdoms. The models are huge/over-sized and pretty easy to paint. People will tell you they are weak...and they would be correct. But, they are fun and they`ll have a new army book in a year or so. If you play them enough - and learn how to truly use MSU teactics - you will get good enough to make even Daemon and VC players think twice. Ogres fit into your "neutral" army category since all they want to do is eat the armies they crush on the battlefield. For MSU, I don`t think Lizardmen are going to work for you...maybe WoC...definitely Ogres!

Almighty Nocturnus

Shiodome
20-04-2009, 09:51
i've got my eye on the wood elves for my next army (msu elves to contrast with my current horde O&Gs). the reasons being they've got amazing individual miniatures (some of the lords are gorgeous), quick to paint, and a completely different play style to almost anything out there.

all these make them a great 'second' army imo, so if this is for your main WHFB i can understand doubts about WE's

Unwise
20-04-2009, 11:14
Pretty much what AlmightyNocturnus said.

Ogres all the way, they just seem to meet those requirements perfectly.

Gork or Possibly Mork
20-04-2009, 11:35
If your interested in OgreKingdoms/tactics etc this is the site to check out
http://ogrestronghold.com/main/index.php

If your interested in Lizardmen check here
http://www.pyramidvault.net/

Not really sure about other dedicated army sites but Avian has an excellent site for tactics with ogres and orcs & goblins here.
http://www.avianon.net/subpage.php?s=index_ogre_tactics

and of course here there are many great tactica threads. The Red Scourge's dipping idea is a good one. http://www.coolminiornot.com/ has some good articles about this technique.

Hope this helps
Cheers

PurchasedPig
20-04-2009, 12:48
I think your best two options are Ogre Kingdoms and Bretonnians. These two are the ultimate MSU armies in my opinion. My preference would be Bretonnians out of these two as they fare better against the more modern armies, they can look stunning in Lance formation and the paint scheme really can be as detailed or simple as you want.
I don't think anyone would mind you using Empire Knights instead but I would suggest that, if you do so, you think up alternative fluff for them or convert them a bit to fit in witht the more feudal background of Brets.

- Purchased Pig -

Bento
20-04-2009, 17:42
Well, I was down at the FLGS earlier and fiddled around a bit with various figures. I think you're right, the WoC probably aren't going to be the way to go for me. So right now it seems to be Lizards and Bretonnians.

I was thinking maybe theming a small force around a second or third son of a Bretonnian noble who went off to carve a realm amongst the Border Princes. I could see them dropping a lot of the usual Bretonnian finery out there, so rather than caparisons they'd just have plain old barding. Might use the White Wolf hammers for counts as Questing Knights, and use some more detailing for Grail Knights. At a loss for Pegasus Knights, although I suppose I could try and carve off the cloth from the pegasi.

Lizards do seem neat, but how well do relatively small units of Saurus do, if I don't go overboard on skirmisher support?

Ogres don't really do much for me. They're a really neat idea and I don't dislike them, but they don't really grab me all that much. Plus I don't know that I wouldn't just be discouraged quickly.

Harwammer
20-04-2009, 18:27
You mentioned beasts... You could actually do MSU with them in a similar style to ogre kingdoms.

Use minotaurs and dragon ogres as your hammers.

Use hounds as redirectors and herds for bait/flee.

Beasts are really easy to paint, minotaurs especially.

Gork or Possibly Mork
21-04-2009, 01:31
Lizards do seem neat, but how well do relatively small units of Saurus do, if I don't go overboard on skirmisher support?

Well I don't want to steer you the wrong way but Saurus work best in what I would call MMU -Multiple Medium Units of about 15-16. They can work in smaller units of 10-12 but it's not really a common thing for them. If you do go with MSU you need plently skinks to bait redirect and counter charge with saurus and ColdOne Cav or stegs to really crush stuff. You don't want them getting charged. The key with any MSU tactics is flanking and setting up multiple charges. MSU's that don't cause fear themselves will have trouble with armies that do such as VC or Deamons. So yes you need lots of support skinks to lure them out of position then set up multiple charges, flank with Steggies and Cold One Cav while Saurus hit the front.

PurchasedPig
21-04-2009, 10:58
I have found that when I use Saurus in an MSU array it tends to go horribly wrong for me... I may just not be good enough at the redirecting (which is, I admit, a distinct possibility) but the problem is that although Saurus are tough as nails even medium cavalry can really destroy them without much effort. The other problem I find with Lizardmen is the cost of anything which could be described as a hard-hitter. They do have brilliant choices for such roles in the form of the Stegadon, Cold Ones and Kroxigor but they are all expensive and, in an MSU list, would still result in a small elite force.
In short I have to agree with Gork that if you do go MSU with lizardmen you will need heavy skirmisher support to make it a viable tactic, if this is a problem I would suggest Bretonnians - the Border Prince idea sounds really thematic!

- PurchasedPig -

Bento
21-04-2009, 15:17
Well, maybe if they had the Minos in plastic. :P
So far it's looking like the Bretonnian list is the way to go.

I hope opponents won't be too down on the counts as business, but frankly if the lance formation doesn't tip people off that they're playing against Brets, I'm not sure I'd get a good game anyway. :P

I've got to take a look at the Border Princes sourcebook for WFRP. I think it'll be a solid theme.

Charistoph
21-04-2009, 16:44
Well, maybe if they had the Minos in plastic. :P
So far it's looking like the Bretonnian list is the way to go.

I hope opponents won't be too down on the counts as business, but frankly if the lance formation doesn't tip people off that they're playing against Brets, I'm not sure I'd get a good game anyway. :P

I've got to take a look at the Border Princes sourcebook for WFRP. I think it'll be a solid theme.

Pretty much. One thing also, with Empire Knights being Core, you COULD go with all/mostly-Knight Core army with them, using them as a fast, crusader army, selecting your Specials and Rares to help out. True, on the charge, they aren't as fearsome as Bretonnians, but they can still be plenty nasty. Added bonus, you don't have to use "Counts As".

Bento
21-04-2009, 17:25
Pretty much. One thing also, with Empire Knights being Core, you COULD go with all/mostly-Knight Core army with them, using them as a fast, crusader army, selecting your Specials and Rares to help out. True, on the charge, they aren't as fearsome as Bretonnians, but they can still be plenty nasty. Added bonus, you don't have to use "Counts As".

Also Steam Tank :p, and the Pistoleer models I really like. I'm not sure all-cav Empire will play all that well though, but I guess I'd certainly have the models to try.