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View Full Version : What has happened to the prices/quantities?



sirbone
20-04-2009, 19:44
I collected during 6th edition, and then it was expensive enough to mean collecting a big army on a teenager's wages was a very very slow process. Now, to have a unit of just 10 empire foot troops with spears or halberds- certainly not your most extravagent spend in points terms or in battle terms- costs 17.50.

If anyone can read that and not become instantly outraged then I'll be, erm, well- I suppose many people can read that and not be outraged... but the point I'm meaning to make is that something simply has to be done, something severe... Perhaps a march on GW headquarters, tell them to stop being such filthy robbing bastards- to give up on LOTR for the little kiddies and focus on real geekery with Fantasy and 40k, and bring all the prices right back down to well below what they were when I joined- when it was 15 for 20 empire foot troops. This is just ludicrous, and coming back to the hobby after a few years gives me a good perspective to be horrified.

How can I justify buying new models when I have perfectly find 6th edition models which, at the time, cost me so much less. Simply ridiculous. I may as well just not bother, though of course I really want to.

*****- I suppose WS don't like seeing rants from n00bs. Pontification, Pontification- 'twill bring nothing but humiliation.

Any token gestures of annoyance at the prices (and upcoming price increases) will be greatly appreciated... and, additionally, I'd be keen to find out if anyone finds the prices to be perfectly reasonable.

Sir Bone

Spider-pope
20-04-2009, 19:46
I collected during 6th edition, and then it was expensive enough to mean collecting a big army on a teenager's wages was a very very slow process. Now, to have a unit of just 10 empire foot troops with spears or halberds- certainly not your most extravagent spend in points terms or in battle terms- costs 17.50.
Sir Bone

No it doesnt. The Empire state troopers are 10 for 12. If you dont want to buy more stuff, then dont. No one is putting a gun to your head. Prices have risen for everything, GW is no different.

sirbone
20-04-2009, 19:49
A terrible example. I must have been clouded with anger and desperation when I was on the GW site- You are, of course, right Spider-pope. Still, my point stands. Grumble Grumble.

Edit: Oh, and I've just realised that my argument stands completely. 24 for 20 spearmen/halberdiers? For god's sake, that is ridiculous beyond belief.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
20-04-2009, 19:51
Sorry, friend, but this is the state of affairs. The prices are a bit steep, but not yet unreasonable.

Spider-pope
20-04-2009, 19:57
A terrible example. I must have been clouded with anger and desperation when I was on the GW site- You are, of course, right Spider-pope. Still, my point stands. Grumble Grumble.

Edit: Oh, and I've just realised that my argument stands completely. 24 for 20 spearmen/halberdiers? For god's sake, that is ridiculous beyond belief.

GW stuff are luxury items, you dont need them to live. Like i said, if you have a 6th edition army you are happy to use, then dont buy anything new.
I can remember when state troopers were 8 for 5, and that was great. It was also 14 years ago, prices rise, especially now. I'm far more concerned about how much food costs than whether i can afford two boxes of models this month or just the one.

MTUCache
20-04-2009, 20:42
You do realize that when you're talking about "back in the good ol' days", there were people saying the exact same thing then that you're saying now? About how back in 4th edition they could buy an all metal army for half of what they could then... right?

GW is a business, plain and simple. They sell a lifestyle more than a game. One that you either want to be involved in or don't. Simple as that. How important to you is it? That's the only statement you can make.

Personally I'm more outraged at the costs of their rulebooks and army books (which are really the only GW products you need if all you want is the "game" aspect of it). If I really wanted to play WHFB just for the sake of playing, I could proxy entire armies out of cheaper minis, or simply cardboard chits... the only thing holding you back is what you expect to get out of the experience.

Same advice now applies as it did back in your "good ol' days"... if you don't like it, find something else to do with your time. Back then you were a teenager with little or no disposable income, but somehow you managed to spend 90% of it on little metal figures. Nowadays you've probably got ten times as much disposable income, barely any free time, and a huge list of things where that time and money need to go. Maybe a time- and money-consuming hobby isn't for you. Seems that's the conclusion most people come to (judging by the age group of most people I find in hobby shops).

Honestly, if I thought it would improve the quality of the game (and the quality of the people who play it), I'd probably be willing to spend twice what they cost now for the experience. Instead I'll find a happy medium where I can collect and paint armies and continue avoiding playing annoying kids as often as possible until I need to get my dice-rolling-fix. :p

Disciple of Caliban
20-04-2009, 20:45
Look on the brightside, atleast you dont feel the need to theme your armies around expensive metal models. For some reason i cant begin to understand most of my theme choices seem to involve needing 2 or 3 large units of metal minis (teutogen guard/pheonix guard/wild riders, pick your poison). Now that makes building an army a slow process! though it does allow me to paint them to a better standard than the plastic minis that i used to buy en-masse :)


Still, at the end of the day its a hobby, and hobbies rarely come cheap. Stamp collecting, motorcycling enthusiast, whatever, the bottom line is hobbies (and other luxuries, like the good toilet paper) generally cost more than basic necessities, such is life

Mercules
20-04-2009, 20:49
What is one of the ingredients in plastic? Petroleum. The cost of a barrel has more than doubled from a few years ago, while the cost of those little plastic figures has not. I would be happy, not pissed. Are you marching on GW because it is too expensive to drive?

MTUCache
20-04-2009, 20:55
What is one of the ingredients in plastic? Petroleum. The cost of a barrel has more than doubled from a few years ago, while the cost of those little plastic figures has not. I would be happy, not pissed. Are you marching on GW because it is too expensive to drive?

These arguments always make me laugh... raw material prices? Really? You think that's what drives prices on these things?

95% of the price-point GW sets on these models has to do with design, production, packaging, shipping, marketing, and advertising costs. Then they set their profit margin as high as they think they can reasonable justify to the parents of 12 year old kids. Business 101. Simple.

The doubling in price of oil is going to have more of an impact on shipping than it is on raw materials. Literally pennies per figure, if that. Raw material costs are almost nothing compared to the other costs incurred.

Oil and tin could quadruple tomorrow, and GW would likely double their prices as a reaction, but it wouldn't impact their production costs very much.

Desert Rain
20-04-2009, 21:03
I remember when I started out and the price of a regiment of troops was 250 SEK (about 15) and now they are about 18 or something right? It's not that much of an increase but it hurts after a while. And those newer sets which is 10 models for 24 - thats just ridiculous. Luckily I don't have to buy any of those for my armies.

Mercules
20-04-2009, 21:10
These arguments always make me laugh... raw material prices? Really? You think that's what drives prices on these things?

95% of the price-point GW sets on these models has to do with design, production, packaging, shipping, marketing, and advertising costs. Then they set their profit margin as high as they think they can reasonable justify to the parents of 12 year old kids. Business 101. Simple.

The doubling in price of oil is going to have more of an impact on shipping than it is on raw materials. Literally pennies per figure, if that. Raw material costs are almost nothing compared to the other costs incurred.

Oil and tin could quadruple tomorrow, and GW would likely double their prices as a reaction, but it wouldn't impact their production costs very much.

So now add up the price of petro needed to create the plastic, ship the plastic, pay the guy who ran the machine that created the plastic pellets and now has higher cost of living because gas prices went up, and pay the guy who drove the truck, same cost of living, and the cost of the plastic injectors which must use something to heat the plastic, and the cost of the people who run said machines who got a cost of living increase due to higher transportation costs, and the people who designed the models who had a cost of living increase... need I go on?

My point was, prices went up. Ergo the cost of making the product went up.

Pavic
20-04-2009, 21:15
This is why I always buy battleforces/battalions. Many of these sets are nice deals, especially if you go through an online discounter. For example the recently released Lizardmen Battalion includes $121.25 USD of minis for the $90 USD price. Take an additional 20%-25% off of this price and one can get the core of army without taking out a second mortgage.

Of course, you still have to pay some obscene prices, but buying the larger army sets can save you fortune on your core troops.

Shamfrit
20-04-2009, 21:24
Buy from Independant and Online retailers; that 12 pound box becomes 9, and that 50 pound battallion box becomes 37, and at 37 pounds, you're making such a retardidly high saving it doesn't matter if 1/2 units arn't going to be used often.

Wolf 11x
20-04-2009, 21:28
I do my best to avoid buying from GW. $12 for one Wild Rider? Nonsense! You buy a box of 5 for $50 and you get the Standard Bearer & Musician whether you want them or not!

I am completely fine with 95% of their plastic prices. Metal infuriates me.

sirbone
20-04-2009, 21:47
Thank you everyone so far. About an hour after posting I felt bad for being so impotently annoyed about something which is, as many of you have said, a luxury.

The Battallion suggestion is certainly a good one- I was considering getting the Battle For Skull Pass twice with a pal of mine from an online retailer. We can split the troops, add a few characters and maybe a core unit, and then we have a nice 1,500pts-ish army each (though whoever gets goblins will have to supplement with what we already have). We both get a rulebook also... Gah, yeah, you don't need to read this. Anyway, cheers folks.

Mercules
20-04-2009, 21:53
Oh.. no worries.

Trust me... I have justified the costs to myself over and over and over and over again. Thus why some of us might be a bit quick to jump on others complaining about the costs.

1. We have that deep dark feeling ourselves and don't want you reminding us.
2. We do NOT want significant others/spouses being reminded of the cost of the hobby.

Erie Ed
20-04-2009, 21:53
I am completely fine with 95% of their plastic prices. Metal infuriates me.

agreed the plastic prices aren't too bad yet...now the price of metal models is ridiculous

nosferatu1001
20-04-2009, 23:28
The price of metal went up crazily, hence the steep rise on metal prices.

You really don't want to know how little profit margin they make on selling boxes, it's pitifully low.

Crazy Harborc
21-04-2009, 00:56
Cost of making those little toy soldiers at GW world?? 25% (tops) of the suggested retail price. When GW is distributing direct to the indie retailers GW charges 60% of the srp. IF.....that's if....GW is actually making a lower markup (% of profit) GW needs to rethink/change it's MoD.;)

In the USA, GW has taken steps to restrict the number of distributers handling GW products (Hince, the growing numbers of "GW only" goodies.)

TheLionReturns
21-04-2009, 00:57
The GW hobbies have always seemed expensive to me and I started in the early 90's. In general I don't have a major problem with the plastics. They do seem to have gotten pricier, but they have also increased massively in quality, and have more options in the sets. The metals are more of a concern. I have been unable to bring myself to buy any metals recently because of the prices. Warhawk riders and Treekin are too expensive, whilst a new Eternal Guard regiment is too much, despite how much I like the models. In fact it has got to a stage where I am considering not buying any more metals at all from GW.

That said I do not feel anger towards GW for their pricing policy. If they can sell at those prices fair play to them. They are a business, and whilst they have a responsibility to their customer base they also have responsibilities to their employees and their shareholders which they should take very seriously. If they are making good money I guess enough people are willing to buy at those prices. It is all very well venting about unjust prices but until enough people stop buying products they feel are overpriced they are just contributing to the problem they complain about.

Marches, petitions, letter writing and other forms of complaint will achieve nothing IMO. Its sales figures and profit margins that will dictate pricing policy which is a responsible way to run a business.

Bento
21-04-2009, 02:13
I've got little to add. GW tends to charge more than what I want to pay. If you really want to tell them, then it's probably worth writing a letter talking about how much you would have spent, but now you won't.

Contra the 'letter writing doesn't help', I think it really doesn't say much to simply vote with your wallet - that way GW doesn't know if you're not buying because you don't like X, or because a store is too far from you, or because you think it costs too much. Not buying is the first step; then the second is letting GW know why.

And hey, if you want to turn down a really good mass battle game that has plastic troops for way cheaper, then by all means, don't play WotR, but please. Chess is all sorts of complex and it's not complicated to learn the rules. We all really need to get over this notion that pages and pages of diagrams and errata is the only way to make a complex game. If that's what it takes, so be it, but there's no real reason to insult those of us who like something that flows more easily from the page to the table.

Shimmergloom
21-04-2009, 02:24
The real way to teach GW a lesson is by buying up lots of cheap plastic chess pieces and gluing them to bases and making a proxy chess army.

Or since an ounce of silver is cheaper than most character models nowadays, buy up alot of silver and proxy it as an army.

When people start playing with silver armies and it costs less than buying GW miniatures than the message will have been sent.

Luthor
21-04-2009, 02:45
So now add up the price of petro needed to create the plastic, ship the plastic, pay the guy who ran the machine that created the plastic pellets and now has higher cost of living because gas prices went up, and pay the guy who drove the truck, same cost of living, and the cost of the plastic injectors which must use something to heat the plastic, and the cost of the people who run said machines who got a cost of living increase due to higher transportation costs, and the people who designed the models who had a cost of living increase... need I go on?

My point was, prices went up. Ergo the cost of making the product went up.

I'm sure the prices doubled even quadrupled in the manufacturing process, however that would make the cost of making a sprue go from about 25 cents to about 50 cents or a dollar. That would be lying as well, my father works for an autoparts company and makes screws and the like from solid metal for pennies. You grossly overestimate the cost of manufacturing, and even then petro costs are very cheap for a barrel of oil compared to a few years ago. OPEC controls the prices, and when economies are bad prices are low.

iamfanboy
21-04-2009, 04:35
Oil prices have halved. Tin and lead prices are a fraction of what they were even a year ago. Santa Claus doesn't bring presents, it's really your parents putting them under the tree. And Games workshop is feeding you a line of bullsht about why they're raising prices.


See, their NEXT price raise was meant to cover a falling volume of sales because the LAST price raise was too much for some customers and the LAST price raise was to cover a falling volume of sales because the price raise before THAT was too much for some customers and that price raise was meant to cover a falling volume of sales........

Can you see where this is going? Eventually there will be three people actually buying from GW, and the rest of us will be swapping GW minis on eBay or buying stuff from other companies to use as Warhammer minis... or playing other games, like Armies of Arcana.


Reaper Miniatures had a very adult response to this. "We realised that every one of our price raises was followed by a decrease in volume of sales. Especially nowadays, we can't afford to price any of our customers out of the hobby."

Let's see if GW comes to the same realisation. I rather doubt it, however.

Stuffburger
21-04-2009, 05:53
Sure, GW stuff is expensive. I'd buy 4x as much (which is to say, still very little, compared to those who have 3-4+ unassembled armies still boxed up somewhere) if it was half as expensive.

In addition to grumbling though, I spent some time thinking through ways to get my hobby fix for cheaper. I tend to play 1k games, convert old (and cheap) models into other things, scratch build war machines and terrain, and make myself put off buying new crack... models until the ones I have already are at least assembled and primed.

That, and never, ever buy direct from GW. Just about everyone discounts GW stuff 20% or more if you can't find it for cheaper off ebay.

ashc
21-04-2009, 09:24
Whilst people grumble at the new method of packing/pricing (10 models for 12 is now looking like the norm for the newer stuff) people are forgetting how you can pick up things like Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights 5 for 12, absolute ruddy bargains those, and with beautiful sculpts to boot.

Ash

sirbone
21-04-2009, 09:29
In addition to grumbling though, I spent some time thinking through ways to get my hobby fix for cheaper. I tend to play 1k games, convert old (and cheap) models into other things, scratch build war machines and terrain, and make myself put off buying new crack... models until the ones I have already are at least assembled and primed.



These are all things that I used to do before my break from WH. Smaller armies with a group of friends, lots of converting and a pragmatic method of assembling and painting.

Again- cheers everyone. Nobody can say anything to reduce the prices, but your discussion is like a gentle stroke to a dog. Or something.

Kerill
21-04-2009, 10:21
I'm a super-skinflint and it's surprising how much cheaper the hobby can be when you put your mind to it. milliput for the world

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 10:35
Right, I know this is the Fantasy section but does anyone else remember that space marine bikes used to cost the same as a unit of five space marines in a box?

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 10:37
Anyhoo, the cheapest I've got in the hobby was buying two boxes of zombies and two skellies and getting three units of 25 each using fillers and bits.

Ixquic
21-04-2009, 13:18
I've only started one army that wasn't majority second hard. GW's prices are for the most part absurd especially when other companies do equal quality work for cheaper. Just look at White Dwarf. That rag isn't worth it for free, let alone $8 an issue for a bunch of ads and terribly played games filled with people that can't understand the game they design.

Don't forget $15 spray primer when the auto shop stuff works the same for $3...

Bento
21-04-2009, 15:12
Well, GW's ancillary products have long seemed to be nonsensically priced if you've got a store that sells other stuff. I'll grant that for the techniques and methods and style used by most high quality minis painters, you're going to want actual model paint and quite possibly model primer - but on that count Vallejo and P3, amongst others, make comparable or better stuff for cheaper. GF9 & P3 accessories (glue, clippers etc.) are pretty much the same as GW's, except cheaper. Pegasus Hobbies and War-Torn worlds make WAY cheaper ready-to-use terrain.

And of course, most of us, if we're honest with ourselves, are probably not going to get better use out of 'specially formulated hobby glue' and 'specially formulated hobby primer' than we would out of a tube of testor's and a can of rustoleum, and those are even less captive as markets go.

Ixquic
21-04-2009, 15:17
GW employees love to explain to me that they HAVE to charge $290 for the stupid modular board since it's made in China and that's just expensive to produce what with the massive amount of plastic it takes and all.

Bento
21-04-2009, 15:25
Well, I wouldn't take it out on the poor employees. They have some pretty restrictive policies on what they can say, and having customers trying to antagonise them is not making them any less grumpy, and isn't a productive use of our time either. :P

Though I must say there was one time someone tried to explain to me why GW's frakking cutting mat was SO MUCH MOAR GUD then any other cutting mat.

IcedCrow
21-04-2009, 15:26
I bought the gaming board. Yeah it was expensive. Yeah it was worth every penny.

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 15:27
I don't even have a cutting mat!!!

I've been making scale models for the best part of fifteen years and never even seen a need for one.

sroblin
21-04-2009, 15:40
The metals have gotten ridiculous. Back in 2000 when I started, I remember geting 2 figures for 5 dollars, or 1 cavalry. Now you pay $10-12 for the same amount. You could get a boxed set of 10 metal miniatures for $20-25, now pay a similar amount for 5. That kind of price rise is definitely not inflation (your average 3% annual inflation produces a 34% rise over 10 years) and it can't only be the price of metals (the price of cars hasn't doubled over the last 10 years!) And oil is selling extremely cheap these days.

Other miniatures companies prices have risen too, but many were and remain cheaper than GW, and most of them are producing tons of individual 'hero' models. Of course, model quality at GW definitely is high these days. I wonder if the availability of plastic regiments as a viable alternative as made it viable for them to drive up the metal costs? Definitely, however, GW is capitalizing on the fact they have have the most popular game on the market by charging higher prices for the same amount of stuff- a reasonable business strategy I suppose, except when I decide it's too expensive for me to indulge in it. (But there is enough of of a dedicated buyer base for it to work, for now.)

And the modelling accesories were always overpriced (and not necessarily of high quality) compared to the competition. All branding there, IMO.

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 15:51
It could have something to do with the labour costs of producing something in the UK (we don't run our ecomomy using illegal Mexicans), maybe even to do with the US gvmt's importation tax of "luxury" items.... Who really knows?
If GW were really raking it in like folk on here suggest then they're share price and the profits would be huge!

You can't really fairly moan about a product being dearer than another similar one one's made in china where the pay is something like 3 a day and in the uk is 5.73 per hour for unskilled labour.

Chaos and Evil
21-04-2009, 15:59
For those saying it's down to the raw materials cost, both Petrol and Tin have experienced big price falls in the last six months, as part of the lack of demand caused by the recession.

Ixquic
21-04-2009, 16:05
Well, I wouldn't take it out on the poor employees. They have some pretty restrictive policies on what they can say, and having customers trying to antagonise them is not making them any less grumpy, and isn't a productive use of our time either. :P

Though I must say there was one time someone tried to explain to me why GW's frakking cutting mat was SO MUCH MOAR GUD then any other cutting mat.

I don't pick bring it up with them since I understand that it's their job to explain why GW stuff is worth the price. It's when I'm having a discussion with a friend and they come into the conversation to make a sales pitch.

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 16:11
Personally I'm more outraged at the costs of their rulebooks and army books (which are really the only GW products you need if all you want is the "game" aspect of it).


Really? :eek:

I'm trying to remember but when I bought my first Dark Elf book, way back in November 1995 I seem to remember paying 10 for it in a GW store.
It's only a price change of 2 or an extra 20% in 13 years.

By comparison, the 16 figure box of Dark Elf warriors from the beginning of 6th edition, cost 12 and are now 18, an extra 50%.
Metals, and again I can go back to 1995 again, 4 witch elves cost 5 (1.25 each). Now they're 5 for 12 (2.40 each), 92% more expensive over 13 years.


On the subject of Rulebooks, 4th and fifth edition you couldn't buy them off the shelf independently, you had to buy a whole new boxed set, then you had to fork out for the extra magic supplement. that came to about 75 (50 for the boxed game, 25 for the magic supplement) Now you pay an (albeit still hefty) 30 for the rulebook.

Now I expect there was some opportunity to buy the Rulebook and the Battlebook from Mail Order and probably cost the same as an army book each, you didn't get your templates but you could photocopy them.
The magic supplement was worth buying in its entirety.

You could argue that you could sell on the unwanted models, but there were only so many Brettonian and Lizardmen players out there and if you're not part of a gaming club, finding someone to buy them was a tad difficult, eBay didn't exist.

The books are the bits that have experienced the lowest increase.


Anyway, to add my voice to the This-is-why-prices-have-risen crowd, It's mostly due to the increase in overheads that GW have incurred by the massive shop opening drive in the late 90's.
Staff need wages, lights need to be turned on, the store needs to be heated (or air conditioned) and in most cases rent needs to be paid.
Back in the day, when independent gaming stores were the norm, these expenses didn't exist, the Indy's covered the costs and in my opinion offered a cosier more welcoming environment and a more honest opinion.*
The sad thing is that I have seen a number of very very good independent stores close because of that drive and heard many more stories about others.
If GW were to shut up shop now, therre are an awful lot of gamers who would have nowhere to shop and play.
That said there would also probably be a number of enterprising Red, Black and Blue shirts, high on the heady air of freedom, who would open up their own indy**, break out into a few different games and probably be a bit more successful than GW.

*I do apologise to the Red, Black and Blue shirts among you who are forced to toe the company line, I place the blame squarely on GWHQ marketing initiatives.
** possibly in a cheaper store, GW tend to go for the very expensive city centre and Mall units.

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 16:20
On the subject of Rulebooks, 4th and fifth edition you couldn't buy them off the shelf independently, you had to buy a whole new boxed set, then you had to fork out for the extra magic supplement. that came to about 75 (50 for the boxed game, 25 for the magic supplement) Now you pay an (albeit still hefty) 30 for the rulebook.



Since everyone keeps gnattering on about GW's deified compitition.....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flames-of-War-2nd-Edition-Rulebook-Rules-WW2-Wargame_W0QQitemZ130301303355QQihZ003QQcategoryZ12 3863QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksid Zp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Flames of War rule set, 30 Soft cover, half the thickness.

Shimmergloom
21-04-2009, 16:30
For that price you get the complete rules for the game and 4 armies.

Gw's price is the main rulebook, plus you need to buy 4 army books to get the rules for 4 armies.

And who cares about thickness when the brb and army books are filled with just pictures of the newest models that you need to BUY BUY BUY!!

My orc and goblin book is 80pgs. Price now is $25. In 80pgs, 22 of them are just pictures of models.

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 16:39
Since everyone keeps gnattering on about GW's deified compitition.....
He said after quoting someone who mad no mention of the competition whatsoever:D


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flames-of-War-2nd-Edition-Rulebook-Rules-WW2-Wargame_W0QQitemZ130301303355QQihZ003QQcategoryZ12 3863QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksid Zp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Flames of War rule set, 30 Soft cover, half the thickness.

It's not really the competition though, it's a Historical re-enactment game*, which to me, has always appeared, as a genre, to have had more expensive books than Fantasy.
How about the rule books for other fantasy or sci-fi games, how do they compare?

*As to why this is important, the next time you meet some Re-enactors ask them why they find LARPing so much fun, they won't tell you either but you'll get some really evil looks from them for the rest of the event.

MTUCache
21-04-2009, 16:48
Really? :eek:
....
Now you pay an (albeit still hefty) 30 for the rulebook.

Now I expect there was some opportunity to buy the Rulebook and the Battlebook from Mail Order and probably cost the same as an army book each, you didn't get your templates but you could photocopy them.
The magic supplement was worth buying in its entirety.
.....
The books are the bits that have experienced the lowest increase.


Yeah, but in the end they're still just books. I understand that there's a lot of playtesting, balancing, editing (*cough*) and development that goes into those books, and the only way they can protect their intellectual property is to copyright them, but like I said in my post.... The only things you really need to play the "game" of Warhammer is the rulebooks, the rest you could do with empty bases or cardboard chits.

That's where my "outrage" (which is more like a minor annoyance) comes from. I accepted a long time ago that I could do with or without the models if I need to (I prefer to have them because I like that aspect of the hobby). But when it comes to the "game" itself, it would be nice if you could get the play-experience without having to drop $100+ on the rulebook and a couple of armybooks. When you compare it to other "games" (board-, card-, or otherwise), the rulesets are typically secondary to the actual product you use to play the games. There may not be as much development or behind-the-scenes work on a board game, but I personally would appreciate it if the "game" elements were priced independently of the "hobby" elements (which I don't mind being expensive).

sroblin
21-04-2009, 16:52
Since everyone keeps gnattering on about GW's deified compitition.....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flames-of-War-2nd-Edition-Rulebook-Rules-WW2-Wargame_W0QQitemZ130301303355QQihZ003QQcategoryZ12 3863QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksid Zp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Flames of War rule set, 30 Soft cover, half the thickness.

Ah, but they're producing stuff out of New Zealand, aren't they? Anyway, the price competition's never been stiff in the rulebook department, all of those are expensive now days. Actually, the two most prominent fantasy rules systems I can think of were Confrontation and the DnD miniatures which gave the rules away for free, but that's hardly a counter-argument when you consider both are out of business! (Former switched to small-run plastic CCG, the latter still producing miniatures, but not the rules to go with them.) And I like having the background fluff.

To be honest, while there's plenty of competing sci-fi or historical rules systems, I can't think of any one fantasy rules system that approaches Warhammer at scale. (MageKnight maybe?)

It's the issue of the metal miniatures prices I think which still stands.

chivalrous
21-04-2009, 17:12
Yeah, but in the end they're still just books. I understand that there's a lot of playtesting, balancing, editing (*cough*) and development that goes into those books, and the only way they can protect their intellectual property is to copyright them, but like I said in my post.... The only things you really need to play the "game" of Warhammer is the rulebooks, the rest you could do with empty bases or cardboard chits.

That's where my "outrage" (which is more like a minor annoyance) comes from. I accepted a long time ago that I could do with or without the models if I need to (I prefer to have them because I like that aspect of the hobby). But when it comes to the "game" itself, it would be nice if you could get the play-experience without having to drop $100+ on the rulebook and a couple of armybooks. When you compare it to other "games" (board-, card-, or otherwise), the rulesets are typically secondary to the actual product you use to play the games. There may not be as much development or behind-the-scenes work on a board game, but I personally would appreciate it if the "game" elements were priced independently of the "hobby" elements (which I don't mind being expensive).

How much do you expect to pay for a book though? Take any new release hardback in your local book store, that's going to be somewhere in the range of 17 nowadays and you're only going to read it a couple to a handful of times. (I'm assuming it's a book you have to have and aren't prepared to wait for the cheaper paperback). Also factor in that These other hardbacks are usually printed on lower quality paper and don't have the glossy finish or colour inserts)
How about a magazine, White Dwarf cost 4 when I stopped buying it and that's a pretty standard price for a magazine now.

Moving to the game, secondary or otherwise, the book is fundamental to the game, it's the bit you have to buy and for what it is, doesn't cost a great deal more, proportionally, than other hard backed books.

Bento
21-04-2009, 17:24
It could have something to do with the labour costs of producing something in the UK (we don't run our ecomomy using illegal Mexicans), maybe even to do with the US gvmt's importation tax of "luxury" items.... Who really knows?
If GW were really raking it in like folk on here suggest then they're share price and the profits would be huge!

You can't really fairly moan about a product being dearer than another similar one one's made in china where the pay is something like 3 a day and in the uk is 5.73 per hour for unskilled labour.

Yeah, but Warlord Games, the Perrys, and Victrix are charging WAY less for their plastics. And in the case of Victrix they're just as multipart as the Cadians, say (and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who want serried ranks). And they're all UK companies with UK production facilities.

What they don't have are stores.

MTUCache
21-04-2009, 17:29
How much do you expect to pay for a book though? Take any new release hardback in your local book store, that's going to be somewhere in the range of 17 nowadays and you're only going to read it a couple to a handful of times. (I'm assuming it's a book you have to have and aren't prepared to wait for the cheaper paperback). Also factor in that These other hardbacks are usually printed on lower quality paper and don't have the glossy finish or colour inserts)
How about a magazine, White Dwarf cost 4 when I stopped buying it and that's a pretty standard price for a magazine now.

Moving to the game, secondary or otherwise, the book is fundamental to the game, it's the bit you have to buy and for what it is, doesn't cost a great deal more, proportionally, than other hard backed books.

Oh, I understand where you're coming from... don't get me wrong, like I said it's just a minor annoyance.

Put it this way: If the "rulebook" actually contained all the rules for playing the game, I'd be okay dropping $50 on it.

But, considering that you'll generally need to buy at least one army book per person, you're looking at $100 just to play the game, without any hobby material whatsoever. Is this a large commitment? Not really... but like I said, I'd like the "game" and the "hobby" to be a little more independent of eachother.

Say you could buy/download the "rulebook" and four army lists (without the hardcover, glossy pages, and fluff/artwork/'eavy Metal stuff) for $40-60. It would get a hell of a lot more people interested in the game of Warhammer, and that in turn would lead to more sales of the miniatures that accompany those rules. The game would grow into a lifestyle, rather than expecting all that commitment up-front. The initial commitment for kids (or parents of kids) would be minimal, and they'd get a much better idea of what kind of commitment they'd like to make in the future. It would be a lot less daunting than the $250+ you have to shell out now in order to get the material to play even a small game of WHFB (without even getting into painting). Then you could buy "expansions" for the game by getting additional rulebooks with the other army lists, or fluff/artwork publications to go along with the army(ies) you prefer.

Pipedream? Yeah. Obviously... but I personally feel it's a different approach that GW could take to get to the same place they are now. It's more of a grass-roots game development, and wouldn't protect their IP as much, but would likely lead to the same amount of miniatures being purchased.

sirbone
21-04-2009, 18:02
Staff have it hard enough, of course- spending most days being branded by the general public as 'geeks' and stuck in a dingy town centre (in England, at least) listening to Nickelback on repeat with 12 year olds arguing "who is cooler- aragorn or a blood thirster?"

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 18:16
*As to why this is important, the next time you meet some Re-enactors ask them why they find LARPing so much fun, they won't tell you either but you'll get some really evil looks from them for the rest of the event.


Ask any re-enacter what LARPing is and you'll get puzzled looks for the rest of the event :evilgrin:

I'm a re-enactor, ask me.

IcedCrow
21-04-2009, 18:24
SOme things to bear in mind.

RC Cars is a hobby. Very expensive.
I fight in the SCA. My armor costs upwards of $1,500 and it's not even top of the line.
I sold a set of roman armor for $2,000 a few years back for SCA.

You don't have to use GW models.

If you don't want to pay for it then don't.

There are a TON of options out there that you could be using. My mate has a chaos army that has NO GW models in it at all and it looks AWESOME. And he paid about 30% of the cost if the models were GW.

Use your imagination. Get creative. If you don't have the cash find alternative ways. They are out there.

QQing about it on forums has been going on since 1999 when I started getting on them about price.

Yes they complained about price even back then.

selone
21-04-2009, 18:47
At a slight tangent shimmergloom mentions something that annoys me- the On'G's shameles self promotion of its models. I'd have been happier with more background/rules clarifications, you've already sold me the army :)

rtunian
21-04-2009, 20:24
what irks me is the inconsistency in model prices that are for sale right now.

how is an orc bully $10 for 1 model, and savage orcs are $22 for 5? savage boar boy command squad is $12 for one, but savage boar boyz are 2 for $12, and regular boar boyz are 5 for $50. there is no discernible pattern here!

its not limited to the metals either... orc boar chariot is $30, where a box of orc boyz is $35. one is 2-4 sprues (i forgot), the other is 14 sprues (4 tops 4 bottoms 2 command 4 shields). night goblins are $30 for 4-6 (forgot again) sprues, and night goblin fanatics are $15 for 1 sprue!

IcedCrow
21-04-2009, 20:32
It's marketing and maximizing of profit. They are a business. To remain in business they must make money. To make money they have to price their range accordingly. Once they make money they pay someone to make new models, new books, etc... that we all love.

Braad
21-04-2009, 20:44
Usually I'm not too concerned with their prices. I'll habe to buy it anyway :p
But Trolls were always 15 euro's a piece, but when I got one the other week, I suddenly had to pay 20...

From what I understood, GW has gone onto the stocks market already some time ago, and those stock holders are only interested in getting money, more money, and some more. As long as those are around, we will be paying more and more.

The answer: lets all start buying GW stocks. When we got them all, we forfeit on getting profit, but instead gain cheap models and a good game.

Shimmergloom
21-04-2009, 20:46
To remain in business they need people to buy their product. As time goes on less and less people are willing to pay full price and less and less people are willing to pay any price for their product.

Instead of expanding their customer base, they are content to let their base shrink more and more with each price raise.

That business model(along with buy out all the smaller competition that you can) is what put Marvel comics into bankruptcy 12 years ago. It is not a solid business model to let your customer base shrink into a black hole of rising prices.

parus_ater
21-04-2009, 21:06
To remain in business they need people to buy their product. As time goes on less and less people are willing to pay full price and less and less people are willing to pay any price for their product.

Instead of expanding their customer base, they are content to let their base shrink more and more with each price raise.

That business model(along with buy out all the smaller competition that you can) is what put Marvel comics into bankruptcy 12 years ago. It is not a solid business model to let your customer base shrink into a black hole of rising prices.

Folk have been saying that for ten years, mate.

Dungeon_Lawyer
21-04-2009, 21:49
they have an annoucement on the main webpage which states starting in around June the Prices will jump even further.

I never buy at retail-plus if you are paitent GW store have hlafprice sales once a year-at least they used to in the states, but like I wrote, I dont frequent them anymore.

Lewzardman
21-04-2009, 21:54
Get in amongst ebay, I recently got a high elf army new in box, it was released as a 25th anniversary thing, for 100, it would be 150+ if i'd bought the models seperately from GW, and also a box of dragon princes for 23, you can't say fairer than that.

I do agree though, the prices are a bit wild.

Mireadur
21-04-2009, 22:24
GO here buddy....

http://www.gamingfigures.com/

Crazydu
21-04-2009, 22:53
I am quite new to Warhammer and I think it's an expensive hobby, but so are a lot of other things. It's my choice to spend my money that way but I will still cringe everytime I buy something and work out how much food/petrol/beer (essentials!) that could have bought me instead:D

Danforth
21-04-2009, 23:03
Last time I was buying minis in large quantities was for 4th/5th edition. Tell you what, the plastics now are beautiful compared to what GW were putting out back then. Back then my 20 got me 30 Empire Halberdiers... all single-piece models standing diagonally on their bases. Woo.

I also used to be happy to pay extra for metal models because, y'know, they were made of metal. Plastic is so much easier to work with and convert, though. I know the moulding limitations on plastic are greater but if I ignore the base material being plastic, and consider how much better GW are with their tools these days, the minis are just as good value as ten years hence, and maybe even slightly more.

Of course, ten years ago they were still "luxury priced". And there's a few shocking prices - e.g. Kurt Helborg is a dude on a horse and GW want nearly 20 for him. Taking the wider view, though, and speaking as a returning player, I don't feel costs have gone up in real terms. They have just remained at the "outrageous, really" level ;)

chivalrous
22-04-2009, 00:26
what irks me is the inconsistency in model prices that are for sale right now.

how is an orc bully $10 for 1 model, and savage orcs are $22 for 5? savage boar boy command squad is $12 for one, but savage boar boyz are 2 for $12, and regular boar boyz are 5 for $50. there is no discernible pattern here!

its not limited to the metals either... orc boar chariot is $30, where a box of orc boyz is $35. one is 2-4 sprues (i forgot), the other is 14 sprues (4 tops 4 bottoms 2 command 4 shields). night goblins are $30 for 4-6 (forgot again) sprues, and night goblin fanatics are $15 for 1 sprue!

I had this conversation with a staffer about ten years ago when the plastic landspeeder was released. I think I was wondering why the plastic one was the same price as the old metal one.
Top bloke that he was, confessed that you pay for the rules as much as you pay for the materials...
Characters are worth more points, so you pay a little bit more for them, same applies to command groups.

sroblin
22-04-2009, 15:48
I had this conversation with a staffer about ten years ago when the plastic landspeeder was released. I think I was wondering why the plastic one was the same price as the old metal one.
Top bloke that he was, confessed that you pay for the rules as much as you pay for the materials...
Characters are worth more points, so you pay a little bit more for them, same applies to command groups.

This is unfortunately for a GW a logic that makes buying from other companies make a lot more sense. The rank and file models aren't necessarily that far apart in price (with notable exceptions) but when they price a slighly snazzier character model twice as high as rank and file, then those reaper minis start to give very good value as alternatives (especially when they're all meant to be 'heroic' individuals.)

The other thing is the higher the regular prices go, the more I am inclined to find alternatives places to purchase even GW figures from instead of directly from the source. Like ebay or the discount bin in the store.

UchihaSasukeKun
22-04-2009, 18:55
Im with the OP as a teenager i barely have any money to spare i know its not GWs fault for the price rise, i guess im just saying im shocked at coming bk after a few years to see the prices as they are.

Mireadur
22-04-2009, 20:19
And who cares about thickness when the brb and army books are filled with just pictures of the newest models that you need to BUY BUY BUY!!

My orc and goblin book is 80pgs. Price now is $25. In 80pgs, 22 of them are just pictures of models.

And i surely pray for them not to remove the paint section. I learned to paint thanks to copying Heavy Metal style and always find great inspiration in their work.

IF anything, i would pay more for more color pictures!

Eulogy2
22-04-2009, 21:23
i havent read every single post, but i know alot of people were complaining of high metal prices. the main reason you saw metal, specially scrap, sky rocket was because of the olympics. china was buying every peice of raw and scrap steel they could to make all those buildings for the games. now that the games are over scrap prices are less than half of what they were and raw steel is more normal as well. this probably doesnt mean that the GW metal mini's price will drop though, gougers!

Crazy Harborc
23-04-2009, 00:48
IMHO, GW will continue to have yearly price hikes....Here and there but not world wide at the same time.;)

The prices at GW keep going up but profits and the number of completed sales transactions do not. Prices on much/most of GW's products are higher than in 2005. 2005 was the peak/top of the GW profit mountain.

Fortunately, the other companies making wargaming products are not GW. The competition appears to depend on yearly sales numbers and incoming money to increase because of happy customers who spend more money for products that have NOT been increased in price and or products offered at reduced/special sales prices.

Shimmergloom
23-04-2009, 03:36
And i surely pray for them not to remove the paint section. I learned to paint thanks to copying Heavy Metal style and always find great inspiration in their work.

IF anything, i would pay more for more color pictures!

what paint section?

there's no paint section in the O&G book. I can't remember the last time there were painting and hobby sections in army books.

Seeing advertisements of fully painted models, does not teach a beginner anything about how to paint a mini.

Cypher, the Emperor
23-04-2009, 04:08
If you don't like GW prices, try Privateer Press the makers of Warmachine.

60 dollars for a unit of THREE cavalry, they make Blood Knights look cheap! And thats just for a minimum unit, to field them proper you need at least two more boosters at 15 dollars a pop, then the character for the unit who is another 18.

For a unit of SIX cavalry. I'm seriously annoyed by people who complain about GW pricing, yes companies like Perry and Gamezone are cheaper, but they deal mostly in white metal (cheaper than plastic) work on limited budgets and don't have an entire product line to support based on sales. I mean, for example look at an Xbox360, you have a 300 dollar investment up front for the "good" version of the console, then 100 dollars more for a year of Xbox live and then 60 dollars per game if you want to get them close to release when people will be online for multiplayer.

For that price, you could play Warhammer, 40k and have decent sized start on a Warmachine army by the edn of the year and IMO I get more bang fer buck out of mini's which is why I sold my gaming systems.

I'm just saying, if you put it in perspective the hobby really ain't that bad, not to mention that your part of a community that wont try and teabag your dead general when he loses combat.

Bento
23-04-2009, 05:44
Err... Cypher? There ARE plenty of gamers like that. =P
PP's cav are cheaper in $CDN than Blood Knights are, I do believe.

And re: companies that deal in pewter - Victrix, (and the Perries now), Warlord Games. All British companies. The Perries and Warlord at the very least produce their plastics in the UK. And they're way cheaper. Warlord are comparable to things like Beast Herds and Bretonnian infantry, where you get the body, and then the head, arms, and a few weapons are separate. Victrix does full on multi-parts similar to the Cadians. Wargames Factory in the US does multi-part plastics for cheaper still.

So whatever GW charges it's prices for, it's not production costs. And that's fine, they can charge what they want and see what they get. There's no need for us to play corporate lapdog though, they pay people for that.

Cypher, the Emperor
23-04-2009, 06:05
Its productuon costs for both the raw material and also the cost of upkeeping a multimedia empire. They have to charge more for somethings so that other things can be made at all, like for instance charging a bit more for plastics so that they can continue to produce stuff like metal executioners and large characters. So when you pay for GW stuff, your not just paying for the cost of the miniatures themselves, your paying for the rules development and white dwarf and their ability to support poor selling product with large selling ones.

Plus the Vicertrix, perry and Warlord plastics are sold at almost no cost. The idea is that once you begin to assemble your plastic troops you'll want to buy metal models to supplement your army.

Plus BKs are about the same as PP's cav, but they are an exception, if GW charged that much for chaos knighst people would be flipping out.

chivalrous
23-04-2009, 11:01
the main reason you saw metal, specially scrap, sky rocket was because of the olympics. china was buying every peice of raw and scrap steel

umm, GW models don't contain any steel.
It's all 'White Metal' an alloy of Tin and Lead, where does the price of steel come into it?

Of course you do have a point about China having an effect on non-precious metals prices but they didn't start buying in bulk until this time last year when the first rumblings of the 'credit crunch' were being felt.
At that point they started buying up a great deal of copper and other important industrial metals.

I'm not sure Tin is one of them.

TheLionReturns
23-04-2009, 11:17
I thought GW removed lead from their mix years ago. Anyway I think it is wrong to focus too much on metal prices. GW has recently stated that the raw material costs of metals and plastics only accounts for 5% of sales. The other costs (such as the store presence) seem to be far more significant in justifying the high prices.

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 11:38
...raw material costs of metals and plastics only accounts for 5% of sales. The other costs (such as the store presence) seem to be far more significant in justifying the high prices.

Indeed!

Go into any store in the morning or mid afternoon and you'll find that the till hardly rings. the shop may have a lot of folk in it but in the 40 mins or so it takes you (well, it takes me!) to look around, have a natter and choose my purchases you could be the only person in that time to stand at the till.
Any other business just wouldn't open in these hours if that's the case but with GW the unbelievably busy periods pay for it. These shops are afterall self sustaining in terms of profits, with some going back to head office. If it wasn't for the mail order to ad cash to HQ's coffers, I'd imagine even more cash from the shops would be going up the ladder and then you'd find that the 10'clock opening would go as well.

Eulogy2
23-04-2009, 12:40
umm, GW models don't contain any steel.
It's all 'White Metal' an alloy of Tin and Lead, where does the price of steel come into it?

they bought all kinds of metals, not just steel. perhaps i should have been more clear.

Wolf 11x
23-04-2009, 16:13
Staff have it hard enough, of course- spending most days being branded by the general public as 'geeks' and stuck in a dingy town centre (in England, at least) listening to Nickelback on repeat with 12 year olds arguing "who is cooler- aragorn or a blood thirster?"

Made my day.

The only way I justify GW products is comparing them to other luxuries. Assuming you buy a 360 game brand new, you're talking $60. Depending on the game, you could clock easily over 100 hours if it is a wise investment. Halo 3, Left 4 Dead, GoW, etc. Anythign involving co-op and supporting online play. :D

I bought a unit of 6 Wild Riders for $62. I've had to assemble and paint them myself (which I don't care to do), but GW models should last for countless years of wargaming with friends. Quite a good investment as well, in my opinion.

Daxio
23-04-2009, 20:48
I convert as much as possible, use plastic as basics, for example, turn glade riders into wild riders, with plenty of green stuff. I have fun modelling and save a shed load of cash at the same time. With a bit of imagination you can repeat the same method all over the range, just make sure who ever you are playing knows what the models represent. I have played in GW tournaments with altered models and not a word has been said. Never bought a dragon prince or reaver, swordmaster or savage orc, its very much cheaper.

Mireadur
23-04-2009, 22:29
what paint section?

there's no paint section in the O&G book. I can't remember the last time there were painting and hobby sections in army books.

Seeing advertisements of fully painted models, does not teach a beginner anything about how to paint a mini.

Aah yes, i should have specified more. I pay for those pics of finished models! those are the ones i love to watch and study. Also i never looked at step by step painting guides anyway. Those basic techniques can be learnt within hours and after that all you want are pics of finished (and well painted models) to continue improving and getting inspiration.

Something worth mentioning though is how the quality of the armies shown in the books has greatly decayed over the years (can easily notice this with the latest painted HE models such as PG or SHs, both in 6th ed).

Dai-Mongar
24-04-2009, 02:28
What really made me balk the other day was seeing the command boxes for LotR. I thought they looked cool, maybe wanted to get one, then realised that they were NZ$50. For three figures. How the hell can that be justified?! It's more than a $40 unit of 24 warriors, and just short of the $60 I'd pay for 10 metal warriors. Conversion all the way for me, how can anyone afford them?

Cypher, the Emperor
24-04-2009, 04:06
Yeah, its 25 for three in the US. God knows why, I thought they used to be cheaper...

Bento
24-04-2009, 04:40
Its productuon costs for both the raw material and also the cost of upkeeping a multimedia empire. They have to charge more for somethings so that other things can be made at all, like for instance charging a bit more for plastics so that they can continue to produce stuff like metal executioners and large characters. So when you pay for GW stuff, your not just paying for the cost of the miniatures themselves, your paying for the rules development and white dwarf and their ability to support poor selling product with large selling ones.

Plus the Vicertrix, perry and Warlord plastics are sold at almost no cost. The idea is that once you begin to assemble your plastic troops you'll want to buy metal models to supplement your army.

Plus BKs are about the same as PP's cav, but they are an exception, if GW charged that much for chaos knighst people would be flipping out.

Oh, I agree. All I'm saying is justifying GW's prices by appeal to materials costs isn't going to make any sense - it's the stores, the support, the monthly pile of recycling, the development, and so forth that tacks on the extras. And for those of us who don't use all that, it may be a factor in deciding whether GW gets our money.
Re: Victrix though - they're actually mostly working in plastic with very few supplemental metals. :p Not to be a pain or anything, just saying. Obviously their market is different and they're not paying for anywhere near as much as GW is.
I also think PP's price for it's Bastions (which are plastic) are comparable to GW's plastics proportional to their metals. That is, if Chaos Knights were metal, I could seem them being similar in price to Blood Knights. Or at least Chosen Chaos Knights could be.


What really made me balk the other day was seeing the command boxes for LotR. I thought they looked cool, maybe wanted to get one, then realised that they were NZ$50. For three figures. How the hell can that be justified?! It's more than a $40 unit of 24 warriors, and just short of the $60 I'd pay for 10 metal warriors. Conversion all the way for me, how can anyone afford them?

Och! Tell me about it. I'm going to paint up captains with some gold trim or chop them up a bit to have a dynamic pose, use a spear or someone with a raised sword as the base of a banner conversion, and the musician will probably just have a counts as conversion, and anyone who complains can either not play against me or get a whack in the head with a bag full of the dollars I save using conversions.

Some of them ARE very nice though.

Rioghan Murchadha
24-04-2009, 04:49
Yeah, its 25 for three in the US. God knows why, I thought they used to be cheaper...

Dunno about the US, but here in Canada anyway, command blisters used to be $30 for 1 guy, since they all tended to come on foot and mounted in the same blister. (For forces with no cav, it was $30 for foot captain and standard bearer). At least now we get 3 models for the same cost instead of 2... :rolleyes:

Shimmergloom
24-04-2009, 05:04
I pay for those pics of finished models!

Seriously. There's like 6 pics that have the new giant in it. 1 or 2 is understandable. 6 pics of the same giant is not worth paying for. Neither is page after page of models that have existed for over a decade and the same pics you see on or on the back of the regiment boxes.

And further, if you want to pay for endless pages of painted pictures, with no explanation on how to paint them to that standard, then just buy white dwarf. I'm paying 20-25 bucks for a rulebook, with rules, tactics and fluff with the army list. Not for a catalog.

Crazy Harborc
25-04-2009, 02:50
Well, since GW is (it says) the largest maker of military miniatures.....Um, isn't it likely GW pays no more/likely less for the needed materials to make metal and or plastic minies? Those other companies that make metal and plastic minies charge less for a box of their goodies.

Why pay GW's prices to "help support the official GW stores"? The only store within 300 miles is closed now. No announced plans for a new one.

That's my 2 cents.;)

silashand
25-04-2009, 02:55
Sorry, friend, but this is the state of affairs. The prices are a bit steep, but not yet unreasonable.

I don't know where you live, but I personally don't find them reasonable at all.

Cheers, Gary

Bento
25-04-2009, 03:48
Well, I'm checking out of buying a WHFB army.
The GW store in my home city closed, and I noticed that the website can't even be bothered to let me know that, nor does it say that the store in the next city over which moved months ago has moved.

So with no store space to play in, and the new Greatsowrds being $50 for 10 human infantry sized figures, I think I'm just going to stick to WotR.

Pavic
25-04-2009, 03:57
So with no store space to play in, and the new Greatsowrds being $50 for 10 human infantry sized figures, I think I'm just going to stick to WotR.

Get on your knees now and pray that GW does not up the prices for these kits as well. If the price on these Greatswords is any example, then I could see the 20 to 24 man LOTR kits going to $35 a piece. I would hope that the poor quality of these models would prevent that (Mordor orcs in particular are atrocious), but then again, who thought we would see $41.25 for 10 plastic figs anytime in the next few years?

Bento
25-04-2009, 06:56
Tell me about it. :S
The new plastic Elves look lovely, but it has put a dent in my plans to do two WotR forces if the price on stuff there goes up a lot, as one nice thing about the elves is you can easily get 150+ points from one box with a couple of conversions or paint jobs.

Slot
25-04-2009, 15:04
The prices of raw materials for anything goes up and down depending on the current climate. When oil was more expensive, petrol went through the roof, gas and electricity bills raised big time. But when these materials get cheaper, petrol prices drop, and the government want the electricity and gas companies to reduce their prices in the same way. I have never seen or heard of GW reducing prices that are a result of raw material costs. I don't think there is any independent controller looking at what they charge (and if there is, i don't know who it is) so the prices go up and up and there isn't anything we can do...

Wolf 11x
25-04-2009, 15:09
After seeing the Empire prices, I must thank God I just finished my Forest Spirit army and got most of that for half price.

Despoiler
25-04-2009, 15:18
i gave up buying from GW directly ages ago. i now source out the internet for cheap deals. a good place for uk customers is Project Hydra (http://www.projecthydra.co.uk) whichs takes 10% off the R.R.P. and gives free 1st class postage to europe.

it isn't hard to find them just look around.

Bento
25-04-2009, 15:38
there isn't anything we can do...

Well, there is, really. We can buy other things. :p

freddythebig
25-04-2009, 16:00
Since everyone keeps gnattering on about GW's deified compitition.....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flames-of-War-2nd-Edition-Rulebook-Rules-WW2-Wargame_W0QQitemZ130301303355QQihZ003QQcategoryZ12 3863QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksid Zp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Flames of War rule set, 30 Soft cover, half the thickness.

WH40K 5th Edition rulebook - Hardback book 30 for 304 pages.

FoW 2nd Edition rulebook - Hardback book 30 for 256 pages.

They are both sitting on the shelf next to me at the moment.

zak
25-04-2009, 17:02
I don't think the prices are that bad at all. I look at how much my mates pay for some of their hobbies and the majority of those are short lived or one-off events. I have an army, which I can use for years. Even if I pay 400.00 for an army that is about 50.00 - 65.00 a year for the average life of an edition (7-8 years). The individual miniatures might look expensive, but once you have them you have them for life.

Shimmergloom
25-04-2009, 17:05
7 editions of warhammer in 26 years. That's hardly a 7-8 year average.

Conotor
25-04-2009, 17:06
I live in a capitalist country, where prices are based on people's actions, not on whineing or charity.

selone
25-04-2009, 17:29
Well done conotor, isn't whining/complaining an action?

zak
25-04-2009, 21:06
I said 'each edition' in case you wanted to redo the army each edition with new armies. Therefore if each edition lasts about 6-8 years (the time it takes for all the books to be re-written) then you have an army that will last that length of time. You could of course not change and you will get it for longer.

Please read my entry before making a reply!

parus_ater
25-04-2009, 21:39
WH40K 5th Edition rulebook - Hardback book 30 for 304 pages.

FoW 2nd Edition rulebook - Hardback book 30 for 256 pages.

They are both sitting on the shelf next to me at the moment.

But none the less, half the thickness....... Lower production value. I'm not complaining, I'm actually just getting into flames of war and I like what I've seen so far. My point was that people don't mind other company's priced but they're similar to GW's who are the scum of the earth when it comes to ripping people of if you believe warseer users.

WhiteKnight
25-04-2009, 21:46
I think that wholesale price really needs to price items correctly. I seriously doubt it costs $90 to create the sprues for 3 leman russes or the different apocalypse bonuses.

theunwantedbeing
25-04-2009, 21:47
25 for 10 plastic 20mm base models?
Urgh, wont be buying that.

Especially in the face of 12 for 5 cavalry that we currently have.
I dont think the pricing comittee at GW actually plays the game.

nosferatu1001
25-04-2009, 23:31
GW are banned (in UK at least) from having sales; they have an effective monopoly in their market, and as producers and largest retail presence would distort the market if they DID [ut on a sale.

AS for "the share holders" making them put up prices - actually no; the shareholders stepped ina couple years back when the company made s*d all money one year, as it was being run like a hobby, not a business - while it was far from going under, the sheer amount of money they made from apoc has been one of the few things keeping them properly going.

for what you get, rulebooks are damn good value, even if they make you gnash your teeth in frustration (mixing marks, yuck) at times :grin: however the minis are going up, and it is mainly material pricing - for all those who have failed to mention Privateers ET AL all put their prices up with GW last year, when metal went ski high, however some also put their plastics up. GW didn't, and are now putting their plastics up.

I'm not a staffer, however im married (well, civil partnership'ed) to one, and also have a good friend who runs an indy store so knows ALL the trade prices. He's just getting into the specialist games side of things, which could be handy :D

sroblin
25-04-2009, 23:48
for what you get, rulebooks are damn good value

I don't actually mind the rule book prices, but I'm not convinced they are that 'good value' for the price. Of course, they deliver the essential goods (the game rules) so on some level they will always be great, but compared to other products on the industry?

The price itself is comparable to what you pay for a mid-sized Wizards of the Coast RPG book these days, but the page count (even in the new larger books for 7th edition, yay!) is still 100 pages, where as those RPG books are going around 160-200 AND are typically hardcover.

I don't overall mind the price that much compared to that of the miniatures, but I don't think its a particular strength.

parus_ater
26-04-2009, 00:02
Speaking of Wizards of the Coast, I counted up what it must have cost me to get a half competetive Magic deck the other week. Nearly shat myself!