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View Full Version : Horus Lupercal = Paul Bunyan?



ARVO
21-04-2009, 04:12
Hello everyone. Im an enormous fan of the Horus Heresy series and Chaos in general. With that in mind, I can tell you that I read everything I can get my hands on regarding the heresy. After thinking about it long and hard, Ive come to think that the primarchs were not as physically impressive as imperial records would have us believe. Over time, the great deeds of the primarchs, which by all accounts could have been performed by a normal space marine, could, and in all likeliness were, blown completely out of proportion. A far more likely case is that the vid-records of the primarchs have gotten lost over the course of ten thousand years. This means that historical fact has had to stay accurate over ten thousand years. I think we can all agree that this is impossible. There are civilizations that were in existence 4,000 years ago that we know very little about today. (Ancient Egyptions and Mayans). Try doubling that time and lets see how well mankind remembers its past. For such records to exist at all is remarkable.

Now some will argue that im dealing in reality a bit too much, but try to look at it from another point of view. Games Workshop has made the 41st millenium an age of irony. Humans now worship a man who claimed he was not a God. Psychic powers, once considered an abomination, are now one of the main tools of the Imperium. Fully half of all space marines worship demon gods that drive them to destroy their brothers. The list goes on. Is it not likely that Games Workshop had another irony in mind; that the mighty primarchs were in fact just space marines with an ego boost?

Finally, there is the case that the Emperor would not put such power into 20 individuals. If he had that kind of technology, he would have created the NORMAL space marines to be that strong. It just doesn't add up that he would have that kind of technology at his disposal and not make more than 20 primarchs.

How did they perform the crazy things they did then you ask? Well to you I say that space marines can do some crazy things. (Take on the Hive Mind anyone?)

This just adds up with what Games Workshop has dealt us thus far. I welcome any other thoughts/rebuttles.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
21-04-2009, 04:39
i agree, the whole world of 40k's backstory is based on hyperbole in my mind. its like legends of old, they get exaggerated. you know david and goliath and all that, he was just probably like 6'5 or something was goliath but you think of him as like 20' tall.

erm yea thats a comparison I think....

Don't get me started on anymore comparisons with hyperbole in the bible though, not wanting to get flamed by the religious masses out there that I have been told about on the news (more hype!?) - face it we live in a world of exaggeration and hyperbole...

dooombot
21-04-2009, 04:50
i like to think of most things in 40k as mainly Imperial propaganda, especially the Primarchs and Emperor who are always drawn to look like giant angelic space marines...clearly they didnt really look like that.

i think theres a line in one of the Cyphus Cain books about how all the stories about Gaunts Ghosts are just propaganda. To me it makes looking at all the background more amusing.

ARVO
21-04-2009, 05:13
Exactly. Lets not even get started on the angelic face of a man who is thousands of years old...

Horus38
21-04-2009, 05:16
Gah, an actual thought out post? I was hoping for a literal comparison of Horus and everyone's favorite lumber jack.

But yes, the HH series does bring the Primarchs down into the 'mortal' realm as opposed to the over blown legends that came afterward.

Grimbad
21-04-2009, 05:52
There are civilizations that were in existence 4,000 years ago that we know very little about today. (Ancient Egyptions and Mayans).

The Egyptians did not have anything like the amount of information we have today in as many forms, let alone in 28,000 years. They didn't have data-banks or computers, and they did not have billions of data-banks and computers with their entire history scattered across the galaxy. To suggest that the records of a high-tech empire that stretched across most of the galaxy surviving 10,000 years is unlikely is ridiculous. Think about it. You would have billions of records, in all mediums- from stone to paper to circuitry- scattered across a million planets. Destroying all information on a particular subject has been difficult since ancient times even in relatively small empires (One egyptian pharaoh, whose name I can't recall, tried to wipe out all records of his predecessor, who we know a lot about in spite of his efforts). In a future full of information in an empire the size of the galaxy, it would be near impossible, even if the Imperium tried its hardest.


Gah, an actual thought out post? I was hoping for a literal comparison of Horus and everyone's favorite lumber jack.

Me too. Some parallels can be drawn, though- Horus is noted in collected visions to have cooked his breakfast pancakes in a frying pan the size of a house, and his pet giant blue grox is obviously a thinly disguised allusion to the Bunyan legend.

ARVO
21-04-2009, 06:33
The Egyptians did not have anything like the amount of information we have today in as many forms, let alone in 28,000 years. They didn't have data-banks or computers, and they did not have billions of data-banks and computers with their entire history scattered across the galaxy. To suggest that the records of a high-tech empire that stretched across most of the galaxy surviving 10,000 years is unlikely is ridiculous. Think about it. You would have billions of records, in all mediums- from stone to paper to circuitry- scattered across a million planets. Destroying all information on a particular subject has been difficult since ancient times even in relatively small empires (One egyptian pharaoh, whose name I can't recall, tried to wipe out all records of his predecessor, who we know a lot about in spite of his efforts). In a future full of information in an empire the size of the galaxy, it would be near impossible, even if the Imperium tried its hardest.

Where did you get that 28,000 year figure from? Anyway, you make a good point. However, have you ever heard of a modern imperial citizen/space marine/anything else reading or watching actual documented footage of the heresy? I certainly havent. It is true that there was a wealth of documentation on the Great Crusade, but we have seen in the heresy series that remembrancers have consistantely been killed in every traitor legion. I obviously can't speak for the loyalists but its clear that the remembrancers who held the only documentation of primarchs were killed during the heresy.

Keep in mind too that im not claiming ALL the information on the primarchs was destroyed, im claiming video records/genetic blueprints are. The only sources of that information are the rembrancers, who can easily be killed, and wherever it is they first cooked up the space marines. I would assume this is the laboratory Horus visited with Erebus/Sejanus, and it was probably destroyed along with the rest of earth during the seige.

Let me also add that even IF that information were out there in the 41st millenium, the imperium would be hard pressed to find it. The Imperium exists much more like a Feudal orginization than a nation-state, with citizens providing manual labor watched over by lords with elite soldiers payed to protect them (space marines/knights). The council of Terra issues orders that are usually received years after their issued. Imagine the logistics of an undertaking as huge as trying to find a vid log amidst the 1,000,000,000 worlds in the control of the imperium and the thousands more that were at the time of the heresy. Its a bigger picture here
Destroying that information on the subject is pretty easy in this case.

dooombot
21-04-2009, 06:47
also, I'm sure the Adminstratum controls all information that gets to its citizens (basically like real-world countries like DPRK; the Imperium is a fascist state after-all). All the documents on what "really" happened in history are probably safely locked away in some gigantic baroque temple that only the High Lords and Inquistors are allowed to visit.

Knowledge is heresy.

Grimbad
21-04-2009, 07:12
Where did you get that 28,000 year figure from?

Horus heresy = 30,000 AD. (40,000 - 10,000)
Now = 2,000 AD.
30-2=28, ergo 28,000 years.

The average imperial citizen, sure, they'll never know the Heresy even happened. But on planets where the Administratum just forgot to purge all the records, the heresy could feature in the standard history textbooks.

pookie
23-04-2009, 14:08
History is always wrote by the Victors.

tho im a little confused, do you mean they Physically were not as big/powerful as is made out?

if so then theres currently a Primarch in Stasis ( so not one altered by Chaos ) so your point is pretty moot in that case.

38.
25-04-2009, 12:30
I did a thread like this on the bnc .. oh my god did people lose their mind.

Things like horus saving the emperor from a warboss (mentioned in the black legion IA i believe) fell on deaf ears.


Moral: Common sense and realism has no place in 40k, and many fans are insane fluff zealots.

Brother Gabriel
25-04-2009, 13:06
Yes and all the aliens dont even exist, they are just there to keep the imperial citicens in line. Something like Eldrad the boogey man.
Its all just made up, like in "wag the dog" with actors and stuff.

Spider-pope
25-04-2009, 13:20
(One egyptian pharaoh, whose name I can't recall, tried to wipe out all records of his predecessor, who we know a lot about in spite of his efforts). In a future full of information in an empire the size of the galaxy, it would be near impossible, even if the Imperium tried its hardest.


That would be the whole Aten "Heresy" that Akhenaten, the artist formerly known as Amenhotep IV, started which basically replaced the Egyptian pantheon with a monotheistic religion focused on the Aten. His successors attempted to erase his legacy from history, yet obviously failed since i was taught all about him during a Egyptology lecture on a cold, rainy, tuesday morning. The Egyptians are not the best example to use for an ancient civilisation we dont know much about, because we do. Ever since the Rosetta stone was discovered in fact.

But i agree with the TC intent, that the Imperiums history has been twisted to suit its rulers, but with the Primarchs i dont think we have been told the full story yet - why did the Emperor allow Chaos to scatter them for example, if he was the uber-being he is supposed to be. Let alone why someone so brilliant could screw up with two of the Primarch's and their legions before the Heresy even started.

Fulgrim's Gimp
25-04-2009, 13:38
The whole point about the Horus Heresy is that it is about the fall of Man by his own inherent weaknesses just short of achieving a true golden age.

Having the main protagonists being less than heroic cheapens the mythical aspect. In the Gothic nature of the 40k setting this was the point when mankind could claim the stars,ram-raid the webway and punch through Avatars faces but it ended tragically and mankind heads inexorably towards its own fall not in the bright *plink* of the Eldar Empire but the light gradually dims until it is gone forever.

That's how i see it anyway :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-04-2009, 04:07
I did a thread like this on the bnc .. oh my god did people lose their mind.

Things like horus saving the emperor from a warboss (mentioned in the black legion IA i believe) fell on deaf ears.


Moral: Common sense and realism has no place in 40k, and many fans are insane fluff zealots.

You mean this thread (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=149629&hl=)?