PDA

View Full Version : tomb kings:VS: lizies



SirSnipes
21-04-2009, 22:19
so me and my mate areahving a heated debate, we both are new to fantasy (40k players, lotr, and wotr) now he thinks that liches and tomb kings are amazing and that tombkings are probably one of the best armys, while i say none of his magic is better than slann pull off and that my stegs and grox will crsuh him

whitch army is better on average

Ultimate Life Form
21-04-2009, 22:24
Tomb Kings have an aged book and are considered weak. Kroxes, Stegadons and especially the new Engine of the Gods will grind them to dust.

However, mind that while Tomb King magic is weak, itīs 100% reliable. Tell your friend that despite what he may think the TK movement spell is the real game winner.

Also, skill is important. Despite LM being better, I was never able to crush my budīs Tomb Kings, simply because heīs ways better than me.

SirSnipes
21-04-2009, 22:52
is a slann a better sorcerror than a tomb king

Nicha11
21-04-2009, 22:56
is a slann a better sorcerror than a tomb king

A slann with focused rumination (+1 power dice per turn for free!)
is so much better then a Tomb King it's funny.

ARabidNun
21-04-2009, 23:08
It has been my experience on both ends that TK simply have a hard time wounding Saurus units without an upgrade, but on the reverse TK have several unit options with high strength for dealing with these and can always use Tomb guardians and the killing blow rule.

If you prefer a fast army (chariots and cavalry) or reliable magic (those annoying miscasts) then TK, otherwise unmatched Ld reliability, speed or tough units and magic heavy then LM. There is no denying the LM have a superiority in magic but to achieve this the opponent has to dedicate alot of points into a Slann and a unit of temple guard. Tie down that unit or avoid it and half of the points are nearly wasted.

As mentioned the TK rulebook is pushing out of date and against the newer rulebooks (HE for instance with always srike first rule) they find it hard to remain competitive.

My suggestion would be to decide what you are looking for in an army (each has its advantages and disadvantages), read through some codexes and check with your local GW to see if they have any models available for "training" you might borrow for a game.

Hope some small part of this helps.
-Rabid

O&G'sRule
21-04-2009, 23:30
TK's are still quite powerful, but the lizardmen are the most recently done army and are a little more complete, they are nearly as versatile as the empire whilst still having rock hard core troops and some of the best magic users in the game. A slaan should be alot more powerful than a high liche priest, though with not actually needing to cast, that might not always be the case, add a casket of souls (which again is weakenned by the cold blooded rule) and you can have a devastating liche. But yes, in general a slaan is better, as well they should be if you read the fluff

Charistoph
21-04-2009, 23:41
which army is better on average

Tomb Kings is balanced for 6th Edition.

Lizardmen are balanced for kicking the can of OP'd 7th Edition armies.

What do you think?

But that's assuming equal players, as ULF said, it's the player behind the models that determine how powerful it can be. There are people who still are able to be competitive with Beasts and Ogres...

SirSnipes
21-04-2009, 23:44
lol WE BOTH HAVE OUR ARMIESI HAVE LIZZIES, he just is convinced that his magics better

Godgolden
21-04-2009, 23:53
a tomb kings army can severly put a crimp on a generals day.

magic, they has it.

SirSnipes
22-04-2009, 01:03
im sure we can deals with him, btw is killing a tomb king really that bad a thing?

ARabidNun
22-04-2009, 10:59
TK's are bound by the same rule as VC that once the general is killed the units start to crumble if not led by characters, or have a rule stating otherwise in their description so protecing the Tomb King (or army general) is essential.

As for the Tomb king himself, when he dies any enemy unit/model that inflicted the final wound is in for a surprise. D6 wounds that cannot be saved by any means, wards or otherwise. This applies for the Princes as well and make for a nice pop when you charge several into a suicide situation but always try to challenge any significant characters to ensure the final wound is caused by something important and not a lucky hit from a skink.

Clegane
22-04-2009, 12:28
Tomb Kings magic is still some of the best in the game, despite being fairly dated at this point. The army as a whole has some rough weaknesses, but magic is not one of them.

If you face off against him without understanding his magic and with the attitude that "none of his magic is better", you are likely to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

TK magic is able to allow for certain situations that are not replicated anywhere else in the game and if he knows how to utilize those situations to his advantage and you aren't expecting them, they WILL knock some of that cockiness out of you.

beaumontbrawler
22-04-2009, 14:54
Depending on the build, I think Lizards v. TK is a very even match.

Charistoph
22-04-2009, 16:10
TK's are bound by a similar rule as VC that once the heirophant is killed the units start to crumble if not led by characters, or have a rule stating otherwise in their description so protecing the hierophant(or army wizard) is essential.


Corrected that for you. It's not the King or Prince that enables the walking of the troops, it's the Liche Priests. Take out that guy, and the troops start going bye bye. The Icon Bearer can reduce that, though.

Kamenwati
22-04-2009, 17:38
Point of correction on killing the Tomb King. The crumble rule sets in with the death of the Hierophant (who is a Liche Priest or High Lich Priest) not the general (who is a Tomb King or Tomb Prince). Sometime I wish it was the general since protecting a T5(4) W4(3) King/prince is much easier then protecting a T3 W3(2) High Liche Priest/Liche Priest.

Edit: Beaten to it. Doh! ^_^'

cm2008
22-04-2009, 19:06
The casket actually works well against lizards the casket rolls against your leadership
2d6+2 so it has nothing to do with cold blooded.

SirSnipes
22-04-2009, 19:30
well hes decided to do warriors of chaos now, he decided that his tzeentch marines, he should be tzeentch WOC

ARabidNun
22-04-2009, 19:52
thanks for the edit. To be honest I have had a large TK army for several years now and haven't played it for a while (too much time with VC's).

Tzeentch...ouch..Now I might agree that is a bit overmatched with some of the Deathstar and character/unit combos with Tzeentch. Question: There is a combo/ability I read a few weeks back about a demon ability that grants the player a power die for every spell his opponent casts. Does that also effect TK magic and bound items as well? My guess would be yes since the main difference with TK magic is you don't need to roll dice to cast only to check the power level of the spell, therefore avoiding miscasts. If not that would be a great surprise for any unaware Tzeentch player.

SirSnipes
22-04-2009, 20:18
hes not using daemons, we have established that noone will use daemons in fantasy at our club, and he hates them anyway, no hes going WOC with a tzeentch theme(irridescant armour and such)

cm2008
22-04-2009, 23:58
special character Vilitch has the ability to steal power and dispel dice when the enemy fails to cast or dispel. Tomb kings never fail to cast so vilitch can only steal dispell dice. and the 2 TK power dice are never used for casting.

Zoolander
23-04-2009, 01:44
TK's are still quite powerful, but the lizardmen are the most recently done army and are a little more complete, they are nearly as versatile as the empire whilst still having rock hard core troops and some of the best magic users in the game. A slaan should be alot more powerful than a high liche priest, though with not actually needing to cast, that might not always be the case, add a casket of souls (which again is weakenned by the cold blooded rule) and you can have a devastating liche. But yes, in general a slaan is better, as well they should be if you read the fluff

TK are at the bottom of the barrel along with Ogres and Beastmen.

As for cold blooded, it has no effect on casket castings.

Karlon
23-04-2009, 11:22
Cold Blooded doesnt effect the Casket of Souls at all. The Casket is 2D6+2 - Leadership stat, there is no testing involved and the Lizard player doesnt roll dice.

Also, trash talking eachother is all well and good, but do you really need to run to the internet and ask them to back you up? Are you seriously going to gloat to your friend that Warseer says Lizards are more recent and therefore stronger? I dont get the motives here.

Kerill
23-04-2009, 11:26
Catapults that fire twice each turn are pretty solid against stegadons and lizzies no longer have an easy chariot killer. Would be a good game I reckon, TK may not be a power army but you can never discount them either if well played.

One of the best armies in the game in terms of balance- ever. Amazingly well done book.

Ultimate Life Form
23-04-2009, 14:01
Catapults that fire twice each turn are pretty solid against stegadons and lizzies no longer have an easy chariot killer.

Dispel Scrolls. Never leave the house without them. Engine of the Godsīs portent of warding. And may I remind you that the Carnosaur has S7?

Kerill
23-04-2009, 14:17
Dispel Scrolls. Never leave the house without them. Engine of the Godsīs portent of warding. And may I remind you that the Carnosaur has S7?

You don't need to remind me no but it is not a cheap chariot killer and means there is no slann present. Compared to the old JSOD with 18" charge 360 degree line of sight and cheap its not the ever present danger it used to be.