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stevegb
22-04-2009, 18:04
I'm a bit bored and would like to read your best stories of abysmal cheaters and the sort of rule bending best suited to legal eagles.

Here is one of my personal fav:

Arranged a game at a local club of 1500pts playing rouge trader. He used eldar and having added the points up based on my eldar army it was about 600 over. Being a poor student I had to bus it everywhere and only took what I needed so just played and got thrashed. This happened in the next few games we played.

Finally, a mate and I decided a taste of his own medicine was needed. So we took everything we owned on the bus and turned up for a 1500pt game. We did a quick tally and added an extra 500pts. He noticed as we stood there smiling and said, oh, by the way I forgot this and added a few more 100 points. My mate said something like: "oh silly me we forgot the orc contingent that are playing with the marines and put 1000pts of orcs down". This went on like this and eventually when he run out of models this guy put about 5000pts down in a 1500pt game. As there were two of us we made it to almost 10000pts and kicked his butt back to cheater ville.

It was so funny. He was seriously pissed but couldn't really say anything. We gave him another chance and next time had 1500pts on the dot. Showed me his list and everything. It was a good game, managed to beat him pretty well and never saw him again.

Mannimarco
22-04-2009, 18:07
lol i think everybody tries to add a few points here and there, nothing so obscene as an extra 500 though lol

although i do remember playing a chaos army (generic mix) and thinking thats a lot of stuff for 1500points

out comes the calculator and codex and i tallyed it up, it was 1500 poits spot on.........except for the free land raider and 5 man terminator squad

LordofWar1986
22-04-2009, 18:11
My last experience with a cheater was in 4rd edition using my old chaos marines against a Dark Eldar player. I had not the slightest clue about Dark Eldar rules at the time, mostly the combat drugs effects. This 14 year old kid rolled on the chart and said like three or four different things that the model gained. I didn't think to call him on it, but I still ended up flattening his Dark Eldar. I later found out about his cheating after a week, and talked to him and asked why he did it. He couldn't answer flat up, much less say sorry...... So I made him a deal, if we play again a fair game, then I won't spread word about his cheating. I tabled his army even faster then the first time :D

Steel Legion for Life
22-04-2009, 18:22
I posted this the other day in a thread miles down, but it's worth repeating the story:-

I once saw a comprehensive slew of cheating at a UK GT; so comprehensive, a friend of mine, who's a store detective decided to put his Poirot-esque crimebusting skills to work.

This was just after 4th ed came out; my friend the store detective had just lost on the top table to an Italian with a seer council army. As I recall, the army had a 15 man seer council, 3 or 4 units of defender guardians, an avatar, 3 wraithlords, and some other stuff.

The store detective used tyranids, with 5 MCs. He had just been beaten by this Italian chap. Next round, I'm up on the top table against the same guy. The store detective warns me about all the tricks; these include -

1.) The dice rolling. First off, he'd roll all of his dice; say twenty at a time, in batches of five or six. He'd pause almost imperceptibly between each set of dice, and would roll subsequent sets into bad results.

So, let's say he rolls 1,2,2,3,5 on one batch - the next batch would be rolled into those dice, giving him re-rolls on practically everything.

He'd also try to palm and pick up too many dice when he was using legitimate re-rolls; most notably on rune armour re-rolls with fortune. So, he'd roll his say 15 saves; count up the results and say "Hmm, ees a seven saves". He'd then pick up say, nine instead of those dice and re-roll them, and then count up the saves, and say "Seex more saves there".

Most of the time, he was so fast and so good at sleight of hand, it was hard to spot.

2.) The Italian was part of a team; when other Italians came finished their games, they'd saunter over to the top table where their friend was, and start talking to him in Italian. Now, they were quite clearly openly giving him advice in italian; but obviously that was hard to prove.

Because so much of wargaming is about your opponent making a mistake or not noticing something, playing against two people is much, much harder, as the other person will often spot things he wouldn't.

3.) He pushed the rules right to the limit; for example, he would have his avatar join a wraithlord, and have all the low strength hits allocated on to the wraithlord where they couldn't wound it, and all of the high strength and AP hits on the avatar, where he would get an invulnerable save.

4.) The language barrier - any time a rules query came up that favoured you, his english would miraculously get worse. You'd try to explain it, but he'd pretend he didn't understand. Notably, his English improved manifestly while, say, explaining the precise interpretation of the wound allocation rule to a judge.

Anyway, so being a decent Guardian reading Steel Legion player, I gave him a run for his money, but eventually lost about turn four, as the avatar/wraithlord combo made a mess of one flank, while 8 flamers and 5 multilasers, 5 heavy stubbers and 5 heavy bolters fired into the packed seer council failed to make an impact despite rolling over 90 wounds.

That was because the 4+ reroll invulnerable save, combined with the ability to stack wounds on the farseers, and dice roll cheating meant he took 2 wounds on each farseer, and lost like 3 warlocks.

The rest of the game saw the seers + avatar+ wraithlord smash all my guard, while the BS4 brightlances on the guardians and brightlances on the wraithlords smashed my chimeras.

Anyway, so I head to the bar, and sit down with the store detective and tell him the story. He's a bit disappointed I lost, but fine up until the last paragraph...when i mention the bright lances. He says,

"Bright Lances - are you sure? Against me he had nothing but starcannons!"

We realised at this point that he had painted almost two complete variant armies; one equipped with starcannons, one equipped with brightlances. The change was subtle enough that players and judges didn't notice; I mean, on wraithlord or weapons platform looks alot like another, right?

He'd also submitted a copy of one army list to the organisers, but had variant army lists to show (but not hand over) to his opponents.

We complained to a judge, who told us we'd need proof. The next morning, the store detective (who habitually photographs games for his blog) shot pictures of the guy using the variant army with bright lances.

We took the pics to the head judge, and the chap was, I believe, the first person to ever be ejected from the GT for actually cheating.

I also went to the first UK doubles tournament, which was a nightmare avalanche of cheating and abuse.

Why? Well, simply put, both armies were selected using the combat patrol rules - so you had two 400 point armies from any codex, limited by combat patrol. Ofc, Combat patrol has no FoC - you just have one troops choice then "Freely from your army list" of anything without 2+ saves, 3+ wounds or vehicles with combined armour of 33 or higher.

Thus, i think my favourite armies were: -

2 Ork armies with 18 killa kans (not squadroned - 18 INDEPENDENT Kans... freely from the FoC remember?) and two gretchin mobs.

2 Saim-hann armies with 12 independent Vipers.

But the all out Cheese-master 5000 army:-

2 Cadian armies (and it had to be Cadian, the EoT campaign was on at the time and the main guard book wasn't out yet) with 6 Basilisks, and two units of 5 kasrkin as troops.

For the record, myself and Pat Dunford won, and got the top prize, an EoT event Card, using a Guard army with a platoon and a chimera, and a sisters army with 20 sisters and 5 seraphim See, cool people win through sometimes...

IrishDelinquent
22-04-2009, 18:35
There is a player at our local GW who really needs to write down exactly what is in his list. When he plays Tyranids, his broods have more biomorphs than they rightfully should. I remember a battle where his Rippers would have cost roughly 15-20 points each...without wings.

When he plays Necrons, he continuously breaks the army's rules. Such things include Scarab swarms with a 3+ save (not from turboboosting), strength 6 Lords, and Warriors getting back up from Lascannons (when nowhere near Tomb Spyders or Res Orbs)

sliganian
22-04-2009, 18:57
Not sure this is cheating per se, but way way back in 3rd edition at the Canadian GT I played against a guy using the Nid 'mutable genus' rules. He had a Stregnth 10 Genestealer. :eek:

(too be fair, those Nid rules were horrid to understand).

Mangobreeder
22-04-2009, 19:45
the other day, i ACCIDENTLY took 8 troops choices in a 2k game.

yes 7 tactica squads and a scout squad, whoop was a gunine mistake and i did feel guilty after, my points were spot on though

Lord Damocles
22-04-2009, 19:46
A certain Necron player round these parts has never played a 1500pt game with less than 1650pts that I've seen.

Note to self: steer well clear.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
22-04-2009, 19:54
Those Combat Patrol lists may have been cheesy or against the spirit of that style of the game, but I wouldn't call them cheating... Except for maybe that six-Basilisk one. Isn't Ordnance banned in Combat Patrol? Or did this tournament not ban it? And hey, that's what you get when you play such an open-ended format... people find creative ways to break it. I think it can be rather cool, so long as you can have games the way it was intended to be played, too.

Corpse
22-04-2009, 19:55
(Combo breaker)
I forgot to check for a 0-1 near the greater daemons entry and played my first game with chaos using a bloodthirster and a lord of change. I lost anyways, and was told mid-game about the limit and I promptly removed the bloodthirster.

The_Outsider
22-04-2009, 19:56
A certain Necron player round these parts has never played a 1500pt game with less than 1650pts that I've seen.

Note to self: steer well clear.

Or the infamous "I don't like that die roll so I will mumble and re-roll it".

Or "I'm on top of a building so I get an extra 12" to my range".

Or..

Or..
Or....*asplodes*

Panzerkanzler
22-04-2009, 20:00
Few things gets me pissed off as much as cheaters. When I spot one I always confront them right away, slimebags should never get away with it. I usually start off fairly lightly if the infraction is slight, but mostly you can tell a real cheat from an accident.

*edit*
Personally I've only come across the die-roll-bluffer, who tries to get re-rolls by bumping dices to get new resulsts. And for a while, while I played rpg's with a certain couple, there was a person who always just got the right roll, but always rolled the die out of sight to the rest of us. Since I, at that time, didn't have a decent group to play with I kept silent and took out my frustration on random sticks on the ground on my way home from game nights.

FictionalCharacter
22-04-2009, 20:07
several several years ago i was hosting a 2 v. 2 game with my necrons and a buddy's chaos marines against my old eldar army and some space marines. all of us were good friends, and when the two other guys left the room to get something to drink, my partner plopped his chaos dreadnought down right in front of the other side's dark reaper unit that had been pinning our entire left flank. it was incredibly obvious, and we assumed that the two guys would come back, see it, and laugh.

instead they came back and didn't notice. somehow the eldar player didn't sense a difference when his dark reapers who had previously announced open season on all of our combined armies were completely obstructed by a chaos dreadnought that they couldn't kill. they never called us on it, and by the time we realized they really didn't know enough of the turn had gone by for the game's legitimacy to be completely ruined. i honestly don't remember if we told them after the game or not. we just kept saying 'that dreadnought's been there the whole time' with really obvious sarcasm, and nothing. it's still obviously our fault for putting it there and letting them roll on it, but wow.

long story short, the dreadnought held up the eldar ranged stuff, and my buddy's raptors and my scarabs (before they were swarms) completely decimated everything else after charging across no man's land.

Steel Legion for Life
22-04-2009, 20:10
Ordnance isn't banned in combat patrol; or rather, it wasn't at the time (late 3rd Ed).

You're right, the lists aren't STRICTLY cheating, but taking 18 times as many of a unit that you can have in a 1500 point game (independent Killa Kans) in an 800 point game is so close to the line that actual cheating probably leaves your opponent with the same bitter taste in his mouth.

LonelyPath
22-04-2009, 20:19
Over the years I've seen some cheating so I may as well mention some of it.

Back when d10's were still used a guy at my gaming group wound insoist to new players that is a 0 (10) was rolled then the weapon was misfiring and would cause no wounds. We did catch him doing this most of the time, but we couldn't be everywhere all the time.

The most notorious cheating I've seen is for movement, where people measure the distance and move the first model, moving the table further as they do so. Alot of 10 or 12" moves instead of 6" floating around tables. In Warhammer this can be even more common, I saw a regiment of high elf warriors march 14" in a movement phase, I did point it out quietly, the guy just shrugged. I made a point not to play against him.

I've seen DH players breaking the True Grit rule alot, adding extra attacks on the charges and so on. Also, some have said the Shrouding is a 2d6x3" distance, not 3d6x3".

VC players ignoring the rules that undead mobels take more wounds for losing combats, or sometimes adding models to above the starting number without the relevant vampire abilities.

1 guy I played against still says to this day that Implant Attack causes instant death, since I play Nids myself I pointed htis out to him every time that it doesn't.

Dice rolling. 1 friend of mine was terrible when it came to cocked dice. If a dice wasn't completely flat he'd insist on a reroll, but only if the roll had not scored the desired result, so in the end everyone would insist he rerolled all dice not flat with the gaming table to get back at him. When he started sulking and swearing (alot) after a few games, we insisted that all people at the club had to roll their dice in provided dice trays. It stopped the entire argument and cheating.

So yeah, there's alot of cheaters out there. If I'm up against someone that's cheating even after being reminded of the rules then I will try a little cheat myself, yet they're fast enough to insist that I play by the rules. Needless to sy, if I catch someon cheating, I will not play against them again until I've seen that they're changed their ways.

Grindgodgrind
22-04-2009, 20:37
I've come across the dice-sleight-of-hand-trickery guys, before. A dude I played against in a tournament (A charity tournament, no less) was abusing the hell out of the rules for his Necron army. And that guy was a former manager. Same tourney, a Dark Angels player was making Samael move like an Eldar jetbike, until I called him out on it.

My favourite though, comes from my buddy Pete who recently went to GW Reading. The guy he was playing against re-rolled every failed dice roll he made for a bunch of LC armed Terminators. Even when Pete pointed out the page in the rulebook where it says 'you can't re-roll a re-roll', the guy insisted on it anyway...

Ozendorph
22-04-2009, 21:37
Back in a 2nd Edition tournament, I played against "slight of hand dice rolling guy" - except he was just terrible at it. The first time he pulled the maneuver, I was basically paralyzed with confusion and said nothing. The second time I told him I could see what he was up to quite plainly and to knock it off - it was an awkward moment because the guy was probably 10 years older than me and (of course) completely denied any wrong doing.

Well, that was enough to get him to stop, but Cheater McJackass was not to be thwarted so easily. As we were wrapping up the last round, he swung into the game store with friend in tow (we were playing our matches out front) and they convinced the kid running the register that he had won the tournament! He collected his prize and fled the scene before any of the other players had the faintest idea what had happened.

We still laugh about that one to this day.

Vepr
22-04-2009, 21:42
There was a marine player that I quit playing for awhile that seemed to have the hardest time with the concept of heavy weapons. It became nerve wracking as I had to pay attention to all of his squads movements and firing to make sure he was not moving around and still firing all his heavy weapons because he would do it every turn claiming he forgot.

He also had a bad habit of being outside of rapid fire range but miraculously in range for assault the next turn even though the unit he was attacking had not moved. When I asked him if his marines had extra inches as war gear he thought I was making a raunchy joke. :p

He has gotten better but I still don't play him anymore unless I have no other choice.

SirSaladhead
22-04-2009, 22:03
I used to battle a necron player, who sometimes "accidentally" hit his minis when I shot at them, then going "We don't know where they were placed, you can't shoot em!"

kendaop
22-04-2009, 22:12
The most common thing i see is people adding an inch or two to all of their measurements. One day, against a player who is notorious for doing this, I measured the distance between two of our units at the end of my turn (i know this is cheating, but it was for the greater good). We were about 13.5 inches away from each other. Sure enough, on his turn, he assaulted me with that unit.

Aurellis
22-04-2009, 22:14
My brother played a Dark Elf player last saturday who was clearly over points in a 2.5k game of Fantasy. He narrowly lost but the challenge was there and he did really well. I've found this problem really common at my local store as people tend to not bring written down lists.

Nagash1959
22-04-2009, 22:24
I've seen a modified version of the batch rolling. The guy would pick up dice, and "accidently" roll some (acting like they slipped out of his hand) and take a moment after they landed to say if they were or were not accidents...if the rolls were good he'd simply roll the rest and not say anything, but if you saw some twos or threes you were sure to hear "Oops, dropped them on accident!"...thankfully we haven't seen the guy in a long time.


The store I play at, my friend is an employee of (closes the store, basically our own all-night game store!) his nwphew was there for a game against his friend, using my friends Necron army. The nephew kept trying to make a 1500 point army, but ept making armies of 1600, 1850, 2125... this wasn't real cheating, he is just TERRIBLE at math and refused to write anything down because "It would take to long". Two other games started and ended before his even got underway. We kept making fun of him for it (17 years old, don't feel bad for him). Eventually my friend made the list he was going to use and the game got started...it took his friend 2.5 turns to totally decimate him...

SnakeWind
22-04-2009, 22:31
...it took his friend 2.5 turns to totally decimate him...

He cheated, didn't he :evilgrin:

Nagash1959
22-04-2009, 22:39
He cheated, didn't he :evilgrin:

Not in the slightest...amazingly...We wouldn't have called him on it at that point. :)

Grimtuff
22-04-2009, 22:44
2 Saim-hann armies with 12 independent Vipers.


Ah, "The Serpents of Trau-Sahh". 2 guys from round here took that army. IIRC they faced an identical one at the same tournament too. :p


My brother played a Dark Elf player last saturday who was clearly over points in a 2.5k game of Fantasy. He narrowly lost but the challenge was there and he did really well. I've found this problem really common at my local store as people tend to not bring written down lists.

And whose fault is this? The store should be laying down the law of no list=no game. But by the same token you cannot keep blaming them for your gaming group being lax with list writing.

Kyrios
22-04-2009, 22:45
i don't get the italian GD batch rolling thingy.
Is the trick to roll the new dice into a group of low results to make them tumble over into more favourable results?

stevegb
22-04-2009, 22:47
This is awesome, some real crackers here. I think is a good one:

An old friend of mine does this all the time but this is the clearest example. He had a unit of Dark Eldar in cover with another piece of cover on the way to where he wanted them. He moved his figures 6" and they were two inches away from the next piece of cover and basically in the open. So he moved them back. Moved a whole bunch of stuff then said, I think I will move them and measured and I watched and managed to move six inches into cover. Basically he had two inches of cover to move through plus a six inch gap. Moved six, moved back 4 then moved six again.

He would also do this when I would be out of RF range yet I would get assaulted. It was an excellent technique to get extra movement. When I would call him on it he would get all confused and say I'd mismeasured. So when I was rapid firing and he called me short I put dice covertly near his units and asked how he managed to make the distance? Same look of innocence and confusion. To combat this, once when he left the room for a bog break I moved the whole of his army back 1". It really confused him that I managed to RF him but he was out of assault range. That turn I took great pleasure in overseeing every movement to make sure it was only 6".

In the end me and a few others instigated a strict rule that once a move is made you can't take it back, only in games against him though.

Blinder
22-04-2009, 22:55
i don't get the italian GD batch rolling thingy.
Is the trick to roll the new dice into a group of low results to make them tumble over into more favourable results?

Exactly.

I've been pretty lucky in that I haven't seen any actual cheating (just the usual honest mistakes, some mine (gogo 3x ratling squads... oh, crap, they're the ones that are 0-1, not ogryns ><), some not). The store near here has run into the "oops I dropped it!" die rolls in the past though, so the rule is now that it only counts if you roll them all at once... better to start that way rather than having someone being singled out for that.

Zark the Damned
22-04-2009, 22:58
Eventually my friend made the list he was going to use and the game got started...it took his friend 2.5 turns to totally decimate him...
2.5 turns to destroy 1/10th of the army? Doesn't sound very broken to me.

The only real cheating I've experienced is people who mismeasure movement... like moving the front guy in a squad 6" forward, then all the guys at the back miraculously jumped in front of him.

Somerandomidiot
22-04-2009, 23:05
My favorite (we've got several, unfortunately) are the "I don't need to write down my list" kind. That is, until you realize they've got 4 Heavy Support choices, and are at least 300pts over. I'd feel sorry for their opponents too, if they weren't so absolutely terrible at the game that they lose anyways...

cuda1179
22-04-2009, 23:13
Back in third edition I went to a turnament where my friend played against a real ass. Back then only models in base-to-base got all their attacks. Tyranid Hormoguants had a special rule that let any of them that where within 2 inches of the enemy attack with the full number of attacks.

Well, when my friend was going to charge his hormogaunts into a unit of marines. Mr. Cheater stated in a quite nice manner that he'd rather not have his expertly painted marines nicked-up by my friend's old-school metal hormogaunts that hung WAY over the base.

Fair enough, so they left them one inch apart, but would count them as being in base-to-base contact. Well, when my friend went to make his attacks Mr. Cheater would only let the first row get their attacks because the second row of hormogaunts were not within two inches of his marines.

He ended up not getting 18 attacks in that turn alone and loosing that round by only 40 victory points.

Melchor
22-04-2009, 23:16
Back at my first GT a couple of years ago I saw a guy try to pull the 'two lists' variant.
He wrote up two lists for his Space Wolf army. One 'normal' and one using the 'drop pod assault' rules (or something like that). He'd which list to use before each game. When the judges finally caught up with him (the last game of the tournament!) he claimed he'd done nothing wrong because the tournament rules specified you had to use 'one army list'. And he had both lists written on the same piece of paper. :rolleyes:

A gaming buddy of mine also ran into a Tau army where the suits had a more than legal amount upgrades. His opponent got really p*ssed when my mate packed up his stuff and told his opponent to get a life.

101st Vostroyan
22-04-2009, 23:38
I've got a few yarns to share with you all...

Firstly, I was playing this kid who Took about 1750 in a 1500 pt game. He tried to take 3 HQs, and went way over the limits on everything. I was in a good mood so I let it go. He then tried to move his terminators...oh...say about 15 in. Even worse, he asked if he could equip his guys with more upgrades mid game after he was already over the limit about 300 pts. Needless to say, I trounced him...

Slightly off topic...BUT SOMEONE STOLE MY GYROCOPTER!! I turned around for a minute to help some friends with a rules question. I turnaround and the Gyrocopter is gone...but my chimera is still sitting there untouched...

In apocalypse games, when I am clear across the table, dealing with something else, someone comes up to me and says...Your dreadnought's dead, all but 1 terminator died...and take 30 armor saves on your tac squad...alright...

Bunnahabhain
22-04-2009, 23:40
All lightning claws automatically strike first...
Kid pulling that one said his special character granted this ability to the army, but realised afterwards that I'd never heard of that one before, or anybody mentioning it here, so it was almost certainly a made up rule. They don't strike before Demolisher shells however. (Current codex marines, I'll feel a little silly if it does actually exist as a rule.)

A few games ago, I was using storm trooper models as veterans, as I'd forgotten the normal veteran models. Once they deep struck in, I forgot they were veterans, so they all gained carapace armour and hellguns by accident...
Silly mistakes, yes. Nothing worse though.

AmBlam
22-04-2009, 23:45
We used to have a cheater that would constantly make up small rules all the time and claim ignorance if he was pulled on them. Such as "you have to take a hit from a plasma gun as you have rolled a 1 on your to-hit roll (with plasma)".

Anyway, one turn in a game I asked him if my termies had LOS to his unit, he said no, fair enough I thought. The next turn he moved directly towards me and not around the terrain blocking LOS and asked if his necrons had LOS to my termies that didn't have LOS to his necrons. I couldn't believe it, how did he not see by his own opinion he didn't have LOS?. I told him that they didn't because my termies didn't have LOS to his necrons but it showed me something strange about him.

He hasn't played with us since and I think it is because he has realised I know the rules and want to play by them and he can't get away with what he wants. That's what Warhammer was to him, an opportunity to cheat.

I think some people want to think that they play warhammer.

Sasori_jap
22-04-2009, 23:49
Cheaters are realy realy realy sad people...Its a freaking game ffs. Does their life suck sooo much that they try to win by any means neccesary? In our local game store when we see that someone is cheating we stop the game and kick his ass out our sight.

Melchor
22-04-2009, 23:58
Cheating (I'm talking real, genuine cheating here. Not honest mistakes) is indeed quite sad. I can sort of forgive cheating kids though. But a cheating veteran is just about the saddest thing imaginable. The kids are young and might not know any better. Older, veteran, players *should* know better than trying to cheat at toy soldiers.

Despoiler
23-04-2009, 00:08
the worse case i can remember is a friend of mine tryed convince our gaming group that scatter cannons could shoot once at each unit in range in a single shooting phase.

thats why we enacted "The anti-cheating laws"

"1. all members of the group must write there lists down and bring with them the armies codex/book. They must include equipment/magic items/etc.

2. before each battle (fantasy) all spells, eye of gods, etc effect must be noted down by the respective model on the army list.

3. the army lists/books are free to be looked at by all participents in the battle.

4. count as/proxies must be pointed out and explained to your opponant BEFORE deployment. they must also be representative and of about the same size as the model/s they are taking the place of.

5. be cosiderate if a rules quirey arises then you or them look it up with out complaint.

6. batch rolling. roll each batch keeping a tally of hits/misses/wounds. then after all the batches have been rolled, roll any re-rolls using the TOTAL number of misses TOGETHER.

7. slanted dice. if you can place another dice on top of the 'slanted' dice without it falling off its not slanted and the roll stands.

ANYONE found cheating will be punished by having to buy the others in the group lunch at their expense. or if no food it availible then they must buy the first three rounds of drinks. you have been warned"

suprisingly enough the sneaky play has stopped since then.

Steel Legion for Life
23-04-2009, 00:14
We had a guy who played at GW Bristol, who was actually a staff member at a GW up the road, who was totally kicking ass with foot orks in tournaments. His nickname was "Power Mullet"; he was really easy-going, liked metal, had a huge mullet, and wasn't what you'd call the sharpest tool in the box. For example, he sometimes called into work sick because he had bad nightmares the night before:)

Anyway, this was during the period when foot Orks were awful, and I wanted to see how he was doing it, thinking maybe he had an awesome list or something. He was a nice guy, if a bit odd, and I didn't for a moment think he was cheating.

It turned out he was so "easy-going" with his move distances, his Orks were easily moving 8-10" a turn in the move phase...In the assault phase, he'd measure super fast and say "Yep, I'm in range" and then pile in all his models. Needless to say, he won alot of games - Orks are pretty awesome with 50% more move.

He got incredibly upset when I pointed this out, making alot of his reputation as an easy going guy. He was really easy going, and a nice guy in general; but he had this vicious competitive side. He just couldn't help himself from doing it.

The reason I gave all my steel legion sergeants pistol and CCW was precisely to stop this kind of abuse of assault/move, which is shockingly common among assault army players.

What I learned from playing Power-Mullet, you shoot the pistols at the Orks, measure the range and go "hmm, 14" (point at tape measure, until they see it really is 14" - (Loudly) MY PISTOL'S OUT OF RANGE". Then if they try to assault you, you point out they must have moved the model too far.

Even so, I've still had people try to assault me after I've used the pistol trick!

As for Power-Mullet, despite being a nice guy in real life, the highlight of his being-annoying-at-gaming career was making three people quit Blood Bowl by being so picky with the rules that a regular described playing him as "being like unnecessary dental surgery". Just goes to show, toy soldiers can do bad things to you:)

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 00:37
I'll be honest, I have a great memory and I know almost every codex basically inside out and I know the rulebook almost off by heart. The most common form of "cheating" I find about is what I call "geuine purposefully unnoticed mistakes".

My friend will move something a little too far, when I call it up he'll go "Oh yeah, sorry" and move it back, or roll too many dice, or forget a rule. You might think these are mistakes but if you knew my friends you'd know they aren't. I don't believe in cheating against cheaters, I prefer to think of myself as a guy everyone can trust, and I've built up a reputation to the point where almost everyone would trust me to roll my dice in secret. I frequently remind player to remember they have to roll for reserves, I remember to take leadership tests I could have "forgotten" to take (see earlier), I apply rules to me as strictly as they should be and I remind opponents of rules that would help them.

The only time I came close to hitting my opponent was when a good friend of mine kept picking up a model to "look at it" and putting it down. He did it once and I warned him not to do it and he did it again. A few days before I found out he told my brother he does it on purpose to move stuff forward so I said next time he picks it up I'm taking it off the board.

My gaming club is relativley cheat free, mainly because myself and the owner know the rules inside out and ruthlessly ridicule anyone attempting to break them.

blackroyal
23-04-2009, 00:40
Years ago I was playing a pickup game with 3 other guys at a local store. It was two space marine players against my nids and this other fellows Space Wolves. I think we were playing 1500 each. Well the game starts out well enough and we get to turn two before I realize I saw not a single troop unit on the other side of the board.

I pointed out that they didn't have legal lists the two responded saying we didn't specify anything on the force organization chart was mandatory. My partner and I packed up immediately.

Sanctjud
23-04-2009, 00:53
My first game of 40KO was vs. a kid younger than me, but seemed knowledgable.

He played space wolves and I was playing '3rd ed Chaos'.

Soooo, I had to deal with a 10 man terminator squad with runic charms or something taht allowed them to re-roll all saves armor and inv, and had 8 assault cannons.

Yea, I learned after the game it was all wrong, but oh well...after becoming one with the 4th ed rulebook, I was a rules lawyer and never lost to him again....but only because I embraced Grandfather Nurgle.

My 7 Cents.

Pasquill
23-04-2009, 01:05
In a 3rd edition game, my 15 Guardians got into range of my opponents Archaon and Incubi bodyguard and unleashed every catapult with guide. After hitting and wounding I handed over 22 dice and said with some glee "roll for saves". He pored them over the table and pulled all the 1's out which was 4 altogether and said:
"4 dead"
"Eh?" I replyed
"4 dead" he repeated
"There are five 2's there!"
"Those hit my Archaon"
"What?"
"Those hit my..."
"I heard what you said" I interrupted "You cannot just roll all the saves and THEN choose who gets hit by what"
He looked annoyed that I pointed this out. I'd seen this guy in the GW shop a few times and he was a regular there, he was not a kid who was unsure of the rules, but it was my first time playing there, so I assume he though I was a newbie and though he would try it out. He backed down and reluctently took the rest of the models off, leaving his archaon and a Incubi.

summerlove
23-04-2009, 01:11
tyranid/sisters of battle playing jerk in our wednesday night league at guardain games in portland oregon was rolling to get a vehicle damage result against my vyper and actually rolled two dice like he is supposed to due to holofield. BUT then instead of rolling his second pen or glance result with two more dice to pick the lowest he rolled two more dice and paired them up with the dice from the first result as he saw fit to give him the wrecked result he wanted. I called him a cheater and he huffed and puffed and talked to his buddy who runs the league and got the win anyway because of that cheaty tactic. And then went on to win the league for the month. Go figure!

DCLXVI
23-04-2009, 01:23
One of my mates is a right stickler for pointing out mistakes etc....but then goes and does them himself and hopes you don't notice, such as measuring a six inch movement range, putting the tape away then moving them about 8 or 9 inches!
One time when we were having a game, I forgot to do my movement and just said 'I'm casting Guide on my Dark Reapers. Oh hang on, I haven't moved yet' and he said 'oh no, you've started your shooting phase now so you can't move!' Hmm...I just carried on with the shooting phase and won the game anyway! :D
I got my own back though...in another game he was so anxious to slaughter my Dark Angel assault squad (with tooled-up Chaplain!) he forgot to shoot (which would have seen them off) and moved his models into close combat with them. I said 'oh you don't want to shoot then?' and he tutted and started to move his models back. I then said 'you can't do that - you've started your assault phase!' He seethed but had to comply. I won that game too...!

It is a bit sad, cheating. When you consider my mate and myself are in our 40's you think he'd be a bit wiser!

Mouldsta
23-04-2009, 01:31
Had a horrible one the other day against a bretonnian player - he had 3 wizards who all had the lore of beasts, and the powerdice/spells would bounce between them all depending on where they were needed most, so that one wizard would end up using all the dice etc. He refused to write down which wizard had what, and you couldn't even tell which wizard was which, since they were all equally unpainted.

All (and I mean every single one) of his charges were so on the edge of his charge arc that you needed a proffessional surveyor to judge the angle, and they were on the extreme edge of range, measured from an infinately tiny point on the very corner of his base to an infinately tiny point on the corner of my bases. At one point he even announced "I measure from the edge of the movement tray" to get an extra couple of mm.

When you then couple this with moving a unit, then changing your mind and moving it back (yeah not so concerned with microscopic measurements now!), taking an absolute age to do anything (a mate went for a meal, ate it in the burger shop and had managed to come back before he finished setting up), having everything in a horrible bare plastic with bare metal balanced on it look, and having the cheek to try lecturing me on tactics afterwards made this the worst game I've ever had.

njfed
23-04-2009, 01:52
What I learned from playing Power-Mullet, you shoot the pistols at the Orks, measure the range and go "hmm, 14" (point at tape measure, until they see it really is 14" - (Loudly) MY PISTOL'S OUT OF RANGE". Then if they try to assault you, you point out they must have moved the model too far.

I love it when I set up 10" into my deply zone so the other guy has to be 26 inches away. When I get charged on turn two I point out that he moved 6, ran 6, moved 6 and assaulted 6...so how did he get to my guys 26 inches away. I never moved my guys and they are exactly 10 inches from my board edge.

Lord Cook
23-04-2009, 02:33
I was recently told that a battle cannon that scores a direct hit cannot possibly have hit the models next to the one I hit because they were at maximum coherency from each other. As the base of a model is more than an inch wide, that meant half the base must be more than half an inch, and combined with the 2" for coherency, the pie plate, being 2.5" in radius, cannot get more than the guy in the middle.

Math made sense, so I went with it.

Got home, and 28mm bases are not more than an inch wide. Huff.

Occulto
23-04-2009, 02:43
Wasn't so much cheating, but still one of the more amusing attempts I've encountered.

One guy who asked if I minded if he was a few points over with his Deathguard. I replied I had no problems with that, expecting him to be over a couple of points or so, but out of curiosity asked exactly how much over he was.

"Only 30 points or so."

Had a bit of a ripple effect - because this was under the old codex. If he'd dropped models to get under, he would have also had to pay for the aspiring champion (as the unit wasn't favoured).

gunmnky
23-04-2009, 03:19
Most nid players I go against ALWAYS measure an extra 2-4 inches in movement and fleet. I played one in a tournament who had representation of what the nid's were armed with, no army list, and no arms on his models. He was also claiming genesneakers were fearless, even when out of synapse. My friend challenged him to a game, and had to keep calling him on moving the extra distance. Then he tried to call my friend out for cheating because, get this: He kept deflecting the zoanthropes attacks with a grey knight grandmaster... but the guy KEPT shooting at the grand master, and nothing else!) The reaction was priceless. The guy cheated horrendously in all his games, then gets owned hard by both of our 100% legit army lists.

Most nid players also seem to ignore the fact that synapse says "must take a LEADERSHIP test" and fearless says "passes all MORALE and PINNING tests" so carnifexes, lictors, etc still suffer when out of synapse.

The worst cheating I've ever seen is during a tournament that people payed to play in. A staff member let his friend set up ALL the terrain, then changed the combat patrol rules so that his friend could use a demon prince with demonic stature and flight, but nobody else could use more than 2 heavy weapons... guess who won the tourney?

There are times when someone makes a mistake. I thought that DA teleport homers worked the same as 3rd and 4th, and was deepstriking my assault squad on them. When I found out it ONLY works on teleporting terminators, I pulled the assault squad from my list and stopped doing it.

I guess that is the difference between a mistake and cheating. Cheaters say oops, and do it again next game.

Lord Humongous
23-04-2009, 03:26
I was recently told that a battle cannon that scores a direct hit cannot possibly have hit the models next to the one I hit because they were at maximum coherency from each other. As the base of a model is more than an inch wide, that meant half the base must be more than half an inch, and combined with the 2" for coherency, the pie plate, being 2.5" in radius, cannot get more than the guy in the middle.

Math made sense, so I went with it.

Got home, and 28mm bases are not more than an inch wide. Huff.

You can ALWAYS bridge the 2" between models in a unit with the 5" blast template. Base size has no effect at all on this! Why? The center of the hole blast template does not have to be co-incident with the center of the base of the model you are targeting- just "over" it. This is quite clear from the diagram on p. 30- you can position the hole offset towards the nearest model in the same unit, as long as it is over the base of the targeted model.
Since the hole is more than 2" from the edge of the template, you can always put the entire hole over one model's base, and still (more than) touch the base of another model that is 2 inches distant.

Tal'Shar Caltarin
23-04-2009, 04:22
He was also claiming genesneakers were fearless, even when out of synapse.

That's an easy mistake to make if you are sloppy when reading the rules. I'm a 'nid player myself, and I'm as honest as possible, calling myself out on things and actually looking up rules if I think they might put me at a disadvantage (case in point, I looked up Lurking under the Instinctive Behavior section to see if my Termagant unit could Lurk and still hold the objective if my Warriors died; I suspected not. Turned out I was right, but my Warriors lived anyway). The only thing that the "Hive Mind Telepathy" rule does is exempt them from the Instinctive Behavior rules. It does NOT confer synapse to the unit, even though the name of the rule implies that it would.

That said, I commonly forget rules, being a new player, just not usually my own; I forget Eldar rules like mad, them being Eldar. Usually my Eldar friend calls me out on it and we're all good.

We don't really have problems with cheating in our little mini-league, because it consists of 5 people that are friends (3 of which live with each other). Friends don't (generally, knowingly) cheat on friends. There are several things that we do that help prevent misunderstanding and at the same time stave off any cheating:

1: There's a LOT of conversation going on in our games. Every time a dice hits the table (Or the "Death Box", a shoebox we use for mass rolls like Bladestorm and Genestealer attacks), the person rolling announces who's doing what, and what they're doing it to. "Dire Avengers here are rolling to hit against your Termagant squad here." No ambiguity to abuse that way. We call out the number of hits / wounds as well.

2: When we measure, we either measure each individual model, or we leave the tape measure down on the table and move the unit up to that point. Either way, we never move more than we're allowed. My Gray Knight friend goes as far as putting his Dreadnought on top of the tape measure to make sure it's 100% accurate before placing him.

3: When rolling for saves, we first allocate. We place the dice down beside or close to the models we're rolling for, and declare what is being rolled for what. Double-stacked wounds are placed together on the table, and rolled separately. Unless the unit is a pure unit (like most 'nid units), we roll each model's saves separately, declaring which model we're rolling for and what number saves. After which, we tip over or remove the models that fail their wound rolls (or pull out a dice for multiple-wound models to mark how many are remaining). Thus only one roll happens at a time, and you don't have to worry about dice crashing into each other and modifying the roll, because they've already taken effect.

4: If at any point we have a question about the main rules or the rules regarding a specific army, we will all willingly share our codices and look up the rule before continuing further.

5: Army rosters are to include everything you're fielding / using, and are to be available to view by any player at any time, and must include accurate point values.

6: We understand that if any of these rules are broken, the perpetrator will be subject to defenestration. :evilgrin:

AlmightyNocturnus
23-04-2009, 04:26
It seems to be the most common example of cheating in this thread, but I`ve seen the "extra inch or two" of movement many times. I remember in one game watching a Tyranid player do it almost shamelessly on the first turn - literally picking up the measure then moving his guants "about" 5" (more like 8.5"). So, I did the usual response for this kind of cheating: I moved close and measure for rapid firing. Clearly showing that his Genestealers were just out of the 12" range. He even did a fist-pump and yell, "Yeah!"... He then moved and assulted that ame unit in his next turn. When I pointed out that it was impossible that he could be in range since I was out of range, he started to mumble something along the lines of "You watched me measure" then he grew silent. It was funny to look at him comprehend what I said - it was like he had just been struck with a shovel!

Almighty Nocturnus

Nagash1959
23-04-2009, 05:00
Yeah, movement is the most common, always with melee armies....I wonder how often ranged armies cheat moving backwards? O.o

Not my story, but it came to mind...guy made his own templates out of some kinda clear red plastic, sorta like the current ones...but not green. With all nice flame/cloud/exlosion looking detail in it. Real nice work by all accounts...except that when compaired to GW issued ones they were too big. And not in a "Oh it's barely noticeable" kinda way. Of course, because they were so time consuming to make and so delicate he wouldn't let anyone else use them.

No one has any loaded dice stories? What happened to old school cheating?

Drogmir
23-04-2009, 05:02
Not really 40K cheating but cheating nonetheless

Scatter dice for Goblin Fanatics

A clearly left arrow apparently means Upper lefthand corner right into my unit, against the guy I was playing against.

He did it several times, and I actually had to call in a redshirt to witness his rolls so he could tell the guy the real direction his fanatics were spinning to.

Valkyrie114
23-04-2009, 05:12
Other than measuring from front of unit to back of unit (my personal favorite to see), my most memorable was this...

1500 points
Marines vs. Guard
5th Edition

Marines get first turn. Assault Marines with shrike jump 6" on to a razorback, razorback moves 12" forward with AM's "on top" of the RB, move 6" off and fleet 5". AM's have just moved 29" in one move/shoot phase. And he decides to assault into cover and rolls a five and a three. By this time, most of the veterans of the store had wandered past, wondering what six Assault marines were doing on a razorback. The player tried to explain, saying that the rules didn't actually say that you can't put models on top of other models. (It actually does, the first page of rules in the small book, third paragraph) and attempts to assault. 34" of movement!

We all had a laugh after that, except for the marine player, who's mom came in the next day to talk with the manager about how her kid was being bullied...

Nagash1959
23-04-2009, 05:20
Bullied? He's lucky he wasn't put to sleep...

Shangrila
23-04-2009, 06:07
My favorite is the hidden wargear guys.

How magically every sgt has that random powerfist or meltabomb or surveyor in the nick of time.

Somtimes i know this is true sometimes,like i always paid 5 points for melta bombs and 5 for a power weapons on IG JO's. (its dumb not to imho.)

And the guy who thought anyone who had access to the armory had everything in it. thats a keeper.

Pooky
23-04-2009, 06:08
I have a couple that may give you a chuckle...

I was playing a kid at at GW once at the managers request since they didn't want to :rolleyes: When this kid measured movement for his berserkers he would hold the tape measure in one hand and move the models with the other. That would be fine, except he would move the tape measure while he moved his model. There were times when he would move up to 12" movement per turn. I wondered if he knew he was cheating. I mean, there would be a 12" gap between the model he just moved and the rest of the squad yet to move :wtf: I let the kid get away with it since I couldn't have been bothered to argue with a kid. I just wished I didn't have to listen to him tell me how he hasn't ever been beaten after the game :mad:

At a tournament there was one CSM player who was playing my friend and I was watching the game. The CSM player had placed a heavy weapons squad on a hill in his deployment zone which was towards his board edge. During turn 1 of the CSM shooting the unit didn't have range on my friends heavy weapons unit. The next CSM turn some how it did have range. My friend didn't move his unit and the CSM didn't move his. So how could this happen? The CSM player was of a "rounded" physique, i.e. he was a massive fat **** with a massive belly. What the CSM player had done was use his belly fat to push forward the hill during that turns movement. He basically leant over the table to move forward his other units and used his belly to move his CSM heavy weapons unit forward! :eek: Clever and a little disgusting...

An interesting cheat was something a friend of mine tried to pull on me. I was new-ish to the game and he was more experienced than I was, so I took his word at the time. He was playing DE and I was SM. He placed a transport behind a building so I couldn't draw LOS to it. He then placed his Archon on jetbike 2" away from the transport but was in the open and I could draw LOS to the Archon. I got first turn and I declared I was going to open up my Heavy Bolters on his Archon. My freind then said, quite arrogantly, "Stupid move. You've just wasted your shooting. You can't shoot an IC that is within 2" of another squad." At the time I thought I didn't understand the rules correctly, but I found out later he's just a bad sport. I don't play him anymore now...

Finally... I will admit that I have cheated in the past :cries: If a game I was playing was going extremely bad I would give my character an extra attack just to try and get something back. *Please don't stone me to death!* I have never cheated on extra points, weapons/ equipment kit outs on models or distances. I have since grown up and have been clean since about 2004 :angel:

Johnnyfrej
23-04-2009, 06:18
This is a good one. I dunno if it was "cheating" or he was just very dim.

Basically he was using Guard against my IW. Now, I've been playing Guard for a while, so I know the book pretty much like the back of my hand. He was trying to use the Hellhound's Inferno Cannon to attack the rear of my Rhino even though he was 100% clearly in the side arc armor for my Rhino. His excuse was that the cannon can be moved to hit the most number of models, in this case making it go to the side the turning to hit the rear armor. After about 5 minutes of argueing a staff member comes by and settles the matter by reading from the rule book (I was right). He throws a fit that I'm being unsportsmanlike and packs up. By this time I was laughing hysterically at the irony and couldn't care less.

Chaplain Mortez
23-04-2009, 06:34
I accidently took 2 more tactical squads once (total'd up my points wrong).

I conceded the game to him at about turn 4 when I realized I had 1 too many rhinos on the table.

Omniassiah
23-04-2009, 07:33
We have several people who happen to Conveniently forget dice/tape measures/templates... basically everything. So I decided to have a little fun with them. Made up a set of brass dice with 2 1s instead of a random other number, got a friend that works for Stanley to make me up 2 tape measures one with each inch stretched to about 1.25" and another where they are only .8", and I have a set of larger/smaller than standard templates. Of course I always gave myself the favorable blue set and my opponent the less desirable red set.

Sure I would tell them after the game if they didn't notice, and they never forgot their stuff again either. And now that I think of it they introduced me to a lot of people with the same problem...



We also had a guy get called on Ruler creep by his opponent(well told the refs after the game) in a local tournament... The creeper's opponent was blind.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 07:39
Does that mean the blind person was cheating, or that even a blind person could TELL the other guy was cheating?

Hellebore

Omniassiah
23-04-2009, 07:45
the blind man called the other guy on ruler creep and he was right as we found in his next game, and did it pretty badly.

Heimlich
23-04-2009, 08:38
The reason I gave all my steel legion sergeants pistol and CCW was precisely to stop this kind of abuse of assault/move, which is shockingly common among assault army players.

What I learned from playing Power-Mullet, you shoot the pistols at the Orks, measure the range and go "hmm, 14" (point at tape measure, until they see it really is 14" - (Loudly) MY PISTOL'S OUT OF RANGE". Then if they try to assault you, you point out they must have moved the model too far.

Even so, I've still had people try to assault me after I've used the pistol trick!

As for Power-Mullet, despite being a nice guy in real life, the highlight of his being-annoying-at-gaming career was making three people quit Blood Bowl by being so picky with the rules that a regular described playing him as "being like unnecessary dental surgery". Just goes to show, toy soldiers can do bad things to you:)

That pistol trick is pure genious!

IJW
23-04-2009, 09:34
I also like the pistol trick. :)

I've not come across many blatant cheaters, but back in Realms of Chaos 'roll 65 million dice to create your warband' times there was this one regular who always seemed to turn up with particularly nasty warbands. We finally caught him out when he was making a new warband in-store and somehow managed to roll 72 on 10d6...

More recently, in a 4th ed. game against the 3.5 ed. CSM book (which I'd not fought before), this guy had huge numbers of powers/rewards/upgrades on all his units. It wasn't until after the game and time to look through the shop copy of the codex that I realised quite how many things in his list were 'illegal', and that he'd fielded about 2,200 points in a 1,500 point game - which he lost anyway, damn those Dark Reapers of mine!

Koryphaus
23-04-2009, 09:41
I haven't seen anyone cheat in a long, long time, mainly because if anyone cheats in our gaming group, their opponent gets a rematch and they get to use a 1750 points army consisting of 40 Nobz in trukks..

Grindgodgrind
23-04-2009, 10:15
A guy I know, his Genestealers often come with EVERY biomorph. When the legality of this is pointed out, he retorts with "Yeah, but I paid the points for it". Quite often, I see people measuring from the front of the base to the back of the bases, to grab an extra inch of movement. That's just plain annoying.

MajorWesJanson
23-04-2009, 10:20
One problem I am finding measurement wise is that my Tau vehicles are on flying stands, and they tend to spin if you think too hard in their direction. That and the flying pegs break off when I try to take the stands off :(

Black Antelope
23-04-2009, 10:22
I've had quite a bit of experience when something is strictly cheating, but mainly that’s because the other person is retard (4 weapons on a crisis, no army list, thinking kans are unharmable by S7, claiming Missile pods give large blast everything under it die, claiming a broadside gets 2 railgun shots and 12 MP shots...). These are a mix of 4 people by the way - 3 Tau players and 1 Ork.

However, I have had seen cheating (and at a torny too ). This young (13ish) WH player had very odd list - [2x10 ST, 10 SoB w/2xSB, 5xSeraphim w/Flamer, Palatine. (500p CP)]. Not only was the entire list unpainted (counter to rules), it was 50% proxied. The kid kept getting pissed off because he kept shooting storm bolters and hellguns at my Chims ("you need to roll a 7 to glance") but he also kept trying to use special weapons in the ST squads and claimed his Sera used faith as a WBB-esk thing (I play WH, so it was VERY stupid to try this).
When one of my friends played him later (who just gave him everything - and still raped him) it emerged he'd been using a MOTAR in his ST - while moving.

Thats be and large the worst example, but there are times when I've played people who dont cheat as such, but annoy the hell out of me - A SM player who always cupped the dice in his hand and blew on them before rolling. Not only very annoying and time wasting, but they were my dice...


Steve - 4 spelling errors in a 250 word post is hardly unable to spell.
Lets try not to massively condescending or anything...

spaint2k
23-04-2009, 10:25
I've had quite a bit of experence when something is strickly cheating, but mainly thats because the other person is retard (4 weapons on a crisis, no army list, thinking kans are unharmable by S7, claiming Missile pods give large blast everything under it die, claiming a broadside gets 2 railgun shots and 12 MP shots...). These are a mix of 4 people by the way - 3 Tau players and 1 Ork.
However, I have had seen cheating (and at a torny too :(). This young (13ish) WH player had very odd list - 2x10 ST, 10 SoB w/2xSB, 5xSeraphim w/Flamer, Palatine. (500p CP). Not only was the entire list unpainted (counter to rules), it was 50% proxied. The kid kept getting pissed off because he kept shooting storm bolters and hellguns at my Chims
- "you need to roll a 7 to glance":rolleyes:
but he also kept trying to use special weapons in the ST squads and claimed his Sera used faith as a WBB-esk thing (I play WH, so it was VERY stupid to try this).
When one of my friends played him later (who just gave him everything - and still raped him) it emerged he'd been usesing a MOTAR in his ST - while moving.
Thants be and large the worst example, but there are times when I've played people who dont cheat as such, but annoy the hell out of me - A SM player who always cuped the dice in his hand and blew on them befoe rolling. Not only very annouying and time wasting, but they were my dice...

If you could spell, or format your post properly, others might have a chance in hell of understanding you.

Steve

Sholto
23-04-2009, 10:30
Regarding dodgy movement, it can be quick tricky to place a metal measuring tape on a crowded table surface without knocking models over, shifting their positions or even scratching them. Sometimes there just isn't enough room to put it down, and with the tape measure hovering in mid-air above the models this can lead to inch-creep. So I made a 6" range ruler out of plasti-card with 1" notches in it. It can be laid edge-flat every time, and I highly recommend it.

Sholto

Grindgodgrind
23-04-2009, 10:32
Aye, and if you want go the whole hog, is it Gale Force 9 who make those little tactical aids? A friend of mine has one, pretty cool.

Raxmei
23-04-2009, 10:39
Regarding dodgy movement, it can be quick tricky to place a metal measuring tape on a crowded table surface without knocking models over, shifting their positions or even scratching them. Sometimes there just isn't enough room to put it down, and with the tape measure hovering in mid-air above the models this can lead to inch-creep. So I made a 6" range ruler out of plasti-card with 1" notches in it. It can be laid edge-flat every time, and I highly recommend it.

SholtoI bought a 60 cent plastic ruler from the grocery store and trimmed off the margins and cut off the first 6" and the last 2". The result is two objects that are clearly 6" and 2" in length.

Sholto
23-04-2009, 10:54
Aye, and if you want go the whole hog, is it Gale Force 9 who make those little tactical aids? A friend of mine has one, pretty cool. Truth be told, I just copied the design of the GF9 TAC template ;)

It is 6" along the longest edge, with 1" and 2" ends. These ends are great for checking coherency and deployment from vehicles and making sure units are 1" apart during movement.

Sorry GF9, but with access to plasticard and a knife I cannot justify paying £8 for your product!

Sholto

burning crome
23-04-2009, 12:20
My house mate has an annoying habit of getting his math wrong with his nobs and even more so only ever his nobs. For instance him rolling 44 hits with a 7 strong mob. I would mind so much if 44 was even a multiple of seven.

Deus
23-04-2009, 12:23
My house mate has an annoying habit of getting his math wrong with his nobs and even more so only ever his nobs. For instance him rolling 44 hits with a 7 strong mob. I would mind so much if 44 was even a multiple of seven.

That would be ok if he ran 5 PKs in there :)

Lord Cook
23-04-2009, 12:29
Unless the unit is a pure unit (like most 'nid units), we roll each model's saves separately, declaring which model we're rolling for and what number saves.

That's actually wrong, just so you know. You only roll saves separately if the models are different. So for example, two marines with boltguns and one with a plasma gun. They suffer six wounds. You put two on the plasma gun and roll separately. Then you put four on the boltguns and roll those four together. Any failed saves equal a dead marine with boltgun.

Identical models always roll all of their saves together as one group.

MacVurrich
23-04-2009, 12:49
Favourit one for me was as Tourney Ref/Judge where a player had a "REALLY" good first round with a good masacre game.

2nd round started and all games got under way.
Wlaking up and down the tables noticed this player rolling his dice and stood to watch for a bit and admire the models. Noticed that his dice had a high 5 6 roll and that they were rolling toward his opponents models a lot.
asked if I could "admire" at his of his oppoents casualties pile and when allowed picked the SM up and noticed that the models had magnets on them, "bases and joints".

Called fellow judge over. asked the first guy if we could look at his dice, nervously agreed. rolled on seperate table

1 in 3 weighted :)

x-esiv-4c
23-04-2009, 12:57
My experiences have been limited.
The last incident I remember was a game between myself and an SM player. I was checking to see if I could get rapid fires in alas the range was 14". The next turn he moves 6" towards my squad then charges and is in range successfully.


Hmmmmmm.

sliganian
23-04-2009, 14:34
My experiences have been limited.
The last incident I remember was a game between myself and an SM player. I was checking to see if I could get rapid fires in alas the range was 14". The next turn he moves 6" towards my squad then charges and is in range successfully.


Hmmmmmm.

Well why the ******* do people LET other people do this? :wtf:

Shame your opponent using Grade 2 Mathematics. It isn't THAT hard...

"Last turn we were 14" apart, remember?"
"Yes"
"This turn, your models that ONLY move 6" moved 6", yes?
"Yes"
"What is 14 - 6?"
"Errmmmm...."
"Let me help you out here skippy. The answer is 8". Agreed?"
"Yes...."
"Do you agree that 8 is greater than 6?"
"....yes..."
"So tell me under what laws of math and physics could your models be within 6" to assault me?"
"BUT the Models are...."
"eh-eh-eh. Is 8 greater than 6? If that is still true in our world, then there is no way you can be assaulting, not matter how 'creatively' you moved your models."

x-esiv-4c
23-04-2009, 15:01
I honestly wasn't that bothered. He was charging my plaguemarines with his tactical squad. Meh.

I just noted he's a player I wouldn't want to play again

EVIL INC
23-04-2009, 15:03
I have seen the extra points added to armies. I always do the math to sit exact on the spot or a point or two below if I cant reach the exact number. I never go over.
I remember playing someone who played "13th company" and took the best units out of the 13th company list AND the wolf list despite the fact you had to choose one. He then bent and broke every rule possible during the game. Even his partner (it was a doubles game) said he would refuse to ever play with or against him again.
Yes, he was one of those super stinky geeky people who even wore a horsetail on his belt because he thought it looked cool. lol

x-esiv-4c
23-04-2009, 15:21
"Wore a horsetail on his belt"...

What exactly does this mean?

EVIL INC
23-04-2009, 15:38
well, he wore it on the back so it looked like he had a tail. I always thought he was just a horses ass.
Not sure what it was "supposed" to mean.

spaint2k
23-04-2009, 15:48
"Wore a horsetail on his belt"...

What exactly does this mean?

I think it means he um... wore an actual horse's tail on his belt. As in, a tail that came from a horse.
:eek:
Steve

Frontier
23-04-2009, 15:49
I've never encountered cheaters, but there was once a legendary personality at my game store. Kid's name was "Lying Cheating Thieving Ian". Apparently the guy was classic for the stuff he would pull with his army.

MrMojoZ
23-04-2009, 15:51
I think I dislike people who allow cheating and don't say anything about as much as I dislike cheaters. You don't have to walk away from the table but at least don't let them get away with it in game, that gives them the green light to cheat the next person they play.

x-esiv-4c
23-04-2009, 15:53
Evil Inc, i'm still hung up on this tail thing.
You're telling me that this chap walked around in daylight with a tail of some sort attached to his belt. This is quite befuddling.

Nevertheless, 80% of the cheating I see is someone taking advantage of the opponent not knowing their codex. I've fallen for this many a time against a particular tyranid player who regularly fields Gaunts that can assault 12" strength 5 power weapons, 3 attacks each.

Tell me this cannot happen.

aberrant_unc
23-04-2009, 16:09
well, he wore it on the back so it looked like he had a tail. I always thought he was just a horses ass.
Not sure what it was "supposed" to mean.

That is really bizarre... He wore a horse's tail out in public?

We used to have a guy that dressed in a pseudo-military outfit and played IG... it was some kind of inside joke from an anime or something. He never cheated and would take weird tactics that he and his friends would laugh about.

Awilla the Hun
23-04-2009, 16:10
I'm not sure that this is cheating, but I once played against someone in 3rd (or fourth, I forget which) Ed with my Chaos Army. Now, this someone was an Eldar Player, who had a Harlequin (of the old style) in his army. I shot down his Falcon with my Land Raider, and he leans the wreck against a building. Very well, thinks I.

Only to find that, next turn, his Harlequin simply hid behind the wreck so as my Terminators can't shoot it!

Let me get this clear. This player selectively positioned his Falcon so as it conveniently provided a place for his Harlequin to hide in. I don't think that that's right, somehow.

aberrant_unc
23-04-2009, 16:11
In my experience most cheating falls under two categories

1. in-game cheating, the most common being leapfrog movement and dice cheating

2. List building cheating - going over points, taking things you can't take, etc. This is really common with pick up games where the other player doesn't have a written list.

The tyranid story is common I think. Young Tyranid players seem to be particularly bad because of the customizability of their list. I played a kid once that whenever he needed a squad to have an upgrade, it had it... by the end of the game his gaunts had +1 iniative, +1 weapon skill, +1 save, etc. etc. etc. until they should have cost almost as much as a space marine. He was fielding a lot of them - maybe 90 in three squads? When he tried to convince me they had hit and run I decided to just finish the game and never ever play at that store again.

Yarick Zan
23-04-2009, 16:13
Evil Inc, i'm still hung up on this tail thing.
You're telling me that this chap walked around in daylight with a tail of some sort attached to his belt. This is quite befuddling.

Nevertheless, 80% of the cheating I see is someone taking advantage of the opponent not knowing their codex. I've fallen for this many a time against a particular tyranid player who regularly fields Gaunts that can assault 12" strength 5 power weapons, 3 attacks each.

Tell me this cannot happen.

Furries man. It's the kind of thing they would do. And I am not talking about that particular servant of Tzeentch either.

Anyways I guess I am lucky seeing as I don't get cheating with my friends. Granted we haven't played 40k in almost a year, but we have a habbit of calling anyone on any cheating we see.

See we call the cheaters on it because if they get away with it, what is going to stop them next time? And the time after that? If you play with us, you play straight an honestly. You bring your army list and your codex, or you build one in the store there. You write down all the points costs, and which model has what. If you play any other way (allow cheaters to cheat, play people who don't have an army list) you are setting yourself up for stupid **** like what is in this thread.

If the person doesn't have their codex say to them "Well here is a pencil and a piece of paper, go up and grab the store codex and write it all down." If they refuse, don't play them. Simple as that.

tuebor
23-04-2009, 16:15
A guy I know, his Genestealers often come with EVERY biomorph. When the legality of this is pointed out, he retorts with "Yeah, but I paid the points for it". Quite often, I see people measuring from the front of the base to the back of the bases, to grab an extra inch of movement. That's just plain annoying.

I wonder if that guy would mind if I equipped every single one of my Guardsmen with plasma guns or demo charges so long as I pay the points for them.

Mannimarco
23-04-2009, 16:38
you want a 10 man squad with 5+ armour saves all with plasma guns you go right ahead

Grazzy
23-04-2009, 16:55
Im lucky enough to have never experienced proper cheating, but the thing that annoys me is when somebody moves everything about 1'' too far.

Honestly, it is not hard to measure 6''! Dont shuffle the models forward another inch.

Max Jet
23-04-2009, 18:15
A guy I know, his Genestealers often come with EVERY biomorph

Shouldn't they cost way over 50 points? for a one wound T 4 4+ save creature right? You know how many points one flamer template can cost him? That is an auto win for you!


you want a 10 man squad with 5+ armour saves all with plasma guns you go right ahead

That would be 200 points for 10 T3 5+ save wounds... I would ENCOURAGE My oponent to do that!

taffeh
23-04-2009, 18:54
Saw a well known person in GW Reading pull off succesfully that what seemed to be Hawk Lords Vanilla Marines' Shrike was I6 however failed to get away with re-rolling to hit twice for Master Crafted Lightening Claws...

My bi-stander quieries fell on deaf ears being a non-frequent goer to Reading GW.

Also he didnt give the Nid player he was playing with a chance to roll cover saves shooting through a forest. Unfortinatly the Nid guy got wiped in the end due however the ironic thing was that it actually seemed like he enjoyed himself!!!

However it seemed the marine player wanted to win!

Whitehorn
23-04-2009, 19:00
We have one our two at the club.

Elastic tape measures is a common one - somehow a movement of 6 got an avatar 3 inches ahead of the rest of the army all moving the same and when questioned he said "It moved diagonally".

If they keep doing it after pointing out, I begin to take advantage.

Pre 5th edition, I put my daemons against his Eldar Iyanden host - glorious rending and Ap3 flamers. I threw in some bait, he over-moved his wraith guard to go for the bait, keeping them in a straight line - perfect for 3 flamers to maximise their hits - killed 7 in 1 attack :D

Narf
23-04-2009, 19:08
with the movemtn things it can get hard sometime, say daemons deepstriking and the running, or just running in general now.

To get round this my group has cut down several of the red rulers from the 40k box, into 12", 11",10",9" etc and just put them next to the models.

Also we let run moves be done either in the movement phase or the shooting phase, hence someone can move between 0" and 12" in the movement pahse, stops the errors being compounded.

Tyranids are bad for cheating, our nid player got seriously ribbed last wknd for wrting down "beefed" gaunts........ as non of us knew what it was apart from him, oh and taking 8 troops choices, and a 1+ armour save....... and several other things, suffice to say he still got panned, but in future his list gets checked pre game to make sure there's nout dodgy about it

Laser guided fanatic
23-04-2009, 19:18
Saw a well known person in GW Reading pull off succesfully that what seemed to be Hawk Lords Vanilla Marines' Shrike was I6 however failed to get away with re-rolling to hit twice for Master Crafted Lightening Claws...

My bi-stander quieries fell on deaf ears being a non-frequent goer to Reading GW.

Also he didnt give the Nid player he was playing with a chance to roll cover saves shooting through a forest. Unfortinatly the Nid guy got wiped in the end due however the ironic thing was that it actually seemed like he enjoyed himself!!!

However it seemed the marine player wanted to win!

I thought GW Reading closed down ages ago?

I have also been on the wrong end of the uber tyranid stick.

aberrant_unc
23-04-2009, 19:35
using army builder or a similar program and printing your list does wonders....

although I do remember back in 3rd edition I was a judge for a tournament we ran in store- we let people use the store's army builder and printer to do their lists during the week before the tournament so that we could have good, quality, legal lists for the tournament.

So I start doing comp scores (which was common back then as a judge) and half these people's army is illegal. It says it is illegal right on the army builder printoff! Yet there they are. Pretty incredible.

Nagash1959
23-04-2009, 20:09
Army Builder however, can EASILY be changed around. I reprogrammed the Empire Army Book into my system before it was even out. (totally legal, my friends knew about it and all). But I could go change it so I pay 5 points for a space marine and it would print out as a totally legal army list. Hell, you can disable the legal armylist feature if you want to. You have to be careful with AB and still check what is writen down on it.

colmarekblack
23-04-2009, 20:22
A few cases of cheating in Cardiff but nothing too major. Elastic tapemeasures being the most common cause.

Another is suspicious dice rolling technique. Uni friend of mine puts his hand in the way to block dice often hiding the results from his opponents. He has a high rate of success with his necrons and thats either down to his technique or army list (Wraiths and Monoliths).

Gutlord Grom
23-04-2009, 20:29
The only one I can think of is the Blod Angels techmarine with Jump Pack and twin power fists acompanying the Command Squad that was led by Jump Pack Corobulo. That was fun day where my opponents Command squad would assault, then fall back into the Rhino when they won.

wartorngetahroun74
23-04-2009, 22:07
The last time I saw someone cheat was in a four player game. One of my friends was running SW, and somehow managed a Rune Priest, 3 wolves, and 9 Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader. He argued for over thirty mintues that the Crusader clearly states 16 models, and NO WHERE does it say termies take up two spaces, nor do the wolves take up any spaces. He finally just quit. Also he has a habit of standing over us, and watch all of our dice rolls, and then conviently rolls his where we cant see them. Unfortunatly we play on the floor, and I cant stand to see them.

Johnnyfrej
24-04-2009, 00:49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom

It is indeed quite retarded, as are all furries. No exceptions.
Woah there, son! :wtf:

Don't go spreading hate. Just because you don't agree with someone's lifestyle doesn't make them retarded. Saying furries are "wrong" is no different than saying homosexuality is "wrong". Now I am neither, but I am an educated and tolerant person who knows nothing good ever comes from hate speech.

Chaos and Evil
24-04-2009, 00:53
I played a cheater today... 1000pts of Marines versus Tyranids; All his Tyranid models had a basic movement speed of between 7 and 8 inches, instead of 6.

I spent the whole game complementing him on how 'fast' his army was (I'm not sure he understood I was being ironic), beat him 8 kill points to 6, and will never play him again. :rolleyes:

WallWeasels
24-04-2009, 02:07
About 2 years ago I played against a genestealer horde at a local Tournament. Everyone was being totally stomped by this guy and he was just eating everyone alive (Tyranids...so literally he was :p). What ended up happening was he was "stomping everyone" because he was getting lucky "first turn charges" with his genestealers. He tried it against me, and he did roll a 6 to fleet (6 scout, 6 move, 6 fleet, 6 charge), but somehow was less than 4 inchs away from me (when we have to be deployed greater than 24 apart).

He went on to say "well it was a mistake I moved them abit to far, but in total its 24 inchs so I can charge you". In which I promptly showed him the missions deployment (which stated GREATER than 24inchs apart) and said thats it is impossible for him to charge me. In which he began to argue that since he moved diagonally he would of gotten there quicker. To which, I ended up just burst out laughing :evilgrin:

In the end, alot of expensive genestealer units met heavyflamers and bolters :D:D


I played a cheater today... 1000pts of Marines versus Tyranids; All his Tyranid models had a basic movement speed of between 7 and 8 inches, instead of 6.
I spent the whole game complementing him on how 'fast' his army was (I'm not sure he understood I was being ironic), beat him 8 kill points to 6, and will never play him again. :rolleyes:Everyone loves games where you BEAT the cheaters :)

Filthy O'Bedlam
24-04-2009, 04:26
After Reading all of this thread I only have one thing to say: Thank The Emperor for regular, trusted playing partners. I can leave the room and not worry that my models will move, and all rules disputes are settled by a D6 roll-off.

Lord Humongous
24-04-2009, 05:10
with the movemtn things it can get hard sometime, say daemons deepstriking and the running, or just running in general now.

Also we let run moves be done either in the movement phase or the shooting phase, hence someone can move between 0" and 12" in the movement pahse, stops the errors being compounded.

Agreed. There's a fair number of cases where I've actually been unsure myself as to whether an assault was entirely legit or not.

To take your idea a step further, why not allow assault moves in the movement phase as well, and just say that you can still shoot the units that are in combat / shoot with the units that charged? Heck, it could reduce confusion about rapid fire & charging as well!

Awilla the Hun
24-04-2009, 07:39
There's a question that's been nagging me: does cheating actually go on in White Dwarf? Because you hear of them "forgetting rules in the heat of the moment", but I've always put that down to their inherent humanity over sinister advertising or whatever...

Melchor
24-04-2009, 08:17
Forgetting rules isn't that bad. Happens all the time. Purposefully forgetting rules to gain an advantage IS pretty bad. I'll always try to remind my opponents if I see them forgetting a rule. I'm just *that* helpfull. ;)

DarkReaver
24-04-2009, 08:54
Slaaneshi Cult Marines(3.5) Vs Dark Angels - 1000 Points - 4th Edition
I got to deep strike both my units of Daemonettes on turn 2 so I placed my first unit and they scattered, measured angle and distance... right into terrain. Not where I wanted. Second unit. Placed and they scattered too, my opponent measures since the are closest to his table side. At a glance I can see they will land right near his alone Commander. He finishes measuring... and they land 30 degree's south of where the arrow is pointing and a 4" further from his commander meaning I wouldn't be able to assault. Players watching are confused how he came to that distance and angle. I look at him and say "Do you really think that's going to hold?" The wrong was righted.

Mixed Daemons vs Imperial Guard - 1000 Points - 4th Edition
The Daemon Codex has just come out and I'm eager to use them. so I get my first battle in, looks like I'm going to lose but that could change. My single Beast of Nurgle charges into combat with a guardsmen unit. Guardsmen do nothing and I kill 5 of them. I win... then my opponent reveals that he still has 2 attacks so not thinking I said ok. He scores 2 wounds and kills my Beast by saying I got no Feel No Pain rolls. How he go that. He claims that His Sergeants are Officers and can therefor have powerfists. The GW Staff force him to fix his list after the game but not before it cost me the game.

Darth ryanus
24-04-2009, 10:01
The funniest cheat i have ever played against was just after they first released the VDR rules in WD. This kid turns up for a game against me with his Tau and a gundam model that he had VDR'd into a Tau titan i said fine as i had a super heavy ork VDR tank. Turn 1 he moves his titan 12" and says oh it has jump jets which i thought ok i will allow that as it is fluffy and eldar have them so there is atleast rules. He then charges my tank and starts pounding it to peices with 4 strength 10 attacks i ask how he has them and he tells me it has titan close combat weapons. I pointed out that Tau are not allowed CCW on vehicles but he insisted that he had paid the points for them based on the eldar ones so then i ask how does it have 4 CCW's with only 2 arms, "its legs count as weapons" he says completly straight faced, so i decide to let him have it because i have an idea.

Next turn i shoot it and get a weapon destroyed result so i tell him the vehicle is destroyed he starts shouting that im cheating so that all the members of the club come over to watch (none of which could stand him) and i point out you said its legs were weapons so i pick to destroy the left leg your titan falls over and is destroyed everyone starts laughing and telling him that im right he packed his stuff up and left we never saw him again.

precinctomega
24-04-2009, 10:22
the Nid guy got wiped in the end due however the ironic thing was that it actually seemed like he enjoyed himself!!!

What's ironic about that? I play cheaters all the time and never (well, almost never) call them on it. I still enjoy the game. Overspent list? Meh. Elastic tape measure? Who cares? Cheaters tend to fall into one of two categories: kids who don't know any better and saddoes for whom victory in a game of toy soldiers is important to their self-esteem.

When it comes to the kids, let 'em cheat! They're involved in a constructive hobby and eventually they'll either learn that it's wrong to cheat and that the only one they're cheating is themselves of an honest victory, or they'll morph into saddoes. Of course, you have to call the good kids on their cheating eventually if you want to save them from the fate of being a saddo.

When it comes to saddoes, I figure these guys need the charity of beating me to brighten their pathetic little lives. It doesn't cost me anything and I just enjoy the chance for a game now and then.

R.

dblaz3r
24-04-2009, 11:07
... you said its legs were weapons so i pick to destroy the left leg your titan falls over and is destroyed...

That's the best thing I've read in this thread :D.

Personally I've only ever come up against the person:

- taking a squad or so over points limit.
- over measuring.
- not playing his army rules properly. (Lack of knowledge and reading skills more than anything ;).)

MagrukWikkid
24-04-2009, 11:35
To take your idea a step further, why not allow assault moves in the movement phase as well, and just say that you can still shoot the units that are in combat / shoot with the units that charged? Heck, it could reduce confusion about rapid fire & charging as well!

We often do this if the charge is intended from the word go. Usually because that kind of charge can be very important.

Bassik
24-04-2009, 11:54
I once had this: I returned from the bathroom, only to find a squad being unable to assault a target it should have been able to before I went.

Sneaky gits :p

Bassik
24-04-2009, 11:55
I once had this: I returned from the bathroom, only to find a squad being unable to assault a target it should have been able to before I went.

It is fairly obvious my Possessed had been cheating!:mad:

Brother Xeron
24-04-2009, 12:07
We have someone in our local club who is a renowned cheater/rule-bender.

A mate of mine played him. Cant remember how many points, but he was playing against this guys grey knights. Final turn, my friend has all of the objectives, so instead of conceding absolute defeat, this guy says 'im going to deep strike my two ten-man grey knight termi squads! Pure cheekyness..

We have now named this manouvre after him.

Brother Xeron

Bob Hunk
24-04-2009, 12:39
My favourite personal experience of cheating was back in 2nd edition. Myself and a friend had teamed up our small Chaos armies to play against an Eldar player.

Back then the Avatar could fire an energy bolt from it's Wailing Doom, much like it can now, only it was a bit more powerful. So the Eldar player declares he's firing it against one of our tanks, then rolls the dice to hit and gets a... one.

"Damn!" he exclaims loudly, before snatching the die up two seconds later and saying "Ok, I hit." My team mate and I looked at each other and replied along the lines of "Err, no you didn't, we both saw the one and heard you yell."

The Eldar player then got very serious and argued with us for several minutes that he'd actually rolled a four and had thus hit his target. He couldn't be talked round despite this blatant lie, so we finally settled for rolling a D6 to decide, on a 1-3 he had missed, on a 4-6 he had hit. The result was a... three. :D

He then proceeded to sulk for the rest of the game (despite eventually winning) claiming that we'd cheated him out of his hit. :eek:

Don't worry though, he got better as he got older. :cool:

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
24-04-2009, 12:45
In 3rd edition I played against someone who claimed Black Templar Terminators had sweeping advance.

Snotteef
24-04-2009, 13:15
Back in the days of Warhammer Fantasy 4th edition, we had a guy who used to leave his elven steeds in play when the riders died. He claimed it was legal, because the fluff says they fight on even after their master dies. :p

Same guy used to try to give all of his 2nd edition IG officers "Look Out Sir, Arghhh" rolls. Couldn't convince him that it was a Warhammer FANTASY rule.

Bob Hunk
24-04-2009, 14:08
Same guy used to try to give all of his 2nd edition IG officers "Look Out Sir, Arghhh" rolls. Couldn't convince him that it was a Warhammer FANTASY rule.

Actually I believe it was a second edition 40k rule too...or was it a strategy card...*scratches head*...well it was definitely in there somewhere. :)

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 14:10
Same guy used to try to give all of his 2nd edition IG officers "Look Out Sir, Arghhh" rolls. Couldn't convince him that it was a Warhammer FANTASY rule.

Ironically, not any more... They even kept the name exactly the same.

IJW
24-04-2009, 14:11
It was a strategy card, and yes it had the exact same name.

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 14:17
I mean to say that exact same rule has returned in the 5th edition Guard codex. You can buy bodyguards for your officers who have this rule.

N1AK
24-04-2009, 14:22
I used to battle a necron player, who sometimes "accidentally" hit his minis when I shot at them, then going "We don't know where they were placed, you can't shoot em!"

I'm pretty sure that'd happen twice before I knocked his whole army on the floor and told him that once he'd glued them back together they'd have to walk back on from his board edge because we didn't know where they had been.

TheFloatingHead
24-04-2009, 14:41
This is one of the most comical threads I have read in ages!:p Thanks guys for giving me something to laugh at. This is good advice for noobs or for people gullable enough (myself included:rolleyes:) to assume that because they may not be cheaters that nobody else will. I'm really finding the dice roll tricks that people seem to use to be good advice. Not for my own personal cheating (I'm really more of a table flipper anyways!:p) but to keep an eye on shady people that might try that kind of stuff. In the games that I have played, it was mainly ignorance of the rules that lead to mistakes happening in the game.

Ixquic
24-04-2009, 14:59
After a long absence I tried to get back into 40k during 4th edition. I show up at the local GW and wait around for a game with my horrendously old Dark Angel army that I had thrown together in middle school. An older guy asks if he wants to play a game so I say cool. By the second turn I'm pretty much done. I was getting hit with large blasts all over the place, plasma guns everywhere. It was rough and I assumed that I just sucked at the game (which was true but not the point). A few months later I'm going through my stuff and find out I had accidentally stolen the guy's flamer template (it had his name on it). So I head back and talk to a bunch of the red shirts that were sitting around talking and ask if they see the guy to give it to him. They told me that if I wanted I could keep it since the guy was banned from the store. It turns out I was the first person he played with his awesome list full of forge would "opponent's permission" stuff that he passed off as regular heavy choices along with illegal special weapons equipped squads and just general list cheating. I'm guessing he was a dick about it when confronted.

At a tourney a guard player was really stretching his movement. This guy is spazzy so it's open to interpretation if it was intentional or not. Basically he would move a unit, decide that no he didn't want it there move it back to generally where it started, move it again and repeat usually gaining a few inches in the process. At the end of his third turn the guard units were pretty much in his opponents deployment zone. The guy just looked at the situation for a minute and asked how it was possible for his guys to be there if they could have moved max 18". The spazzy kid started to argue about it, move his guys back a bit but at that point it was pretty ridiculous and the opponent quit out of the tourney since he had a short fuse. To be fair that kind of stuff is a pain in the ass and shouldn't be tolerated along with hiding dice or other ridiculousness.

On the fantasy front at a tourney a player apparently used 6th edition Teclis to nuke the entire board with bubble spells. At the time Teclis had unlimited range on his magic missile spells, and the guy said this ability conferred onto spells which read "all units within 12" take d6 wounds, etc. So since the range was unlimited every enemy model would take hits. Teclis's rules specifically said this is NOT the case. When called on it he claimed to have forgotten his book and couldn't double check so he ended up winning the tourney. If I had been there I would have told him that Teclis is old and thus his range on all his spell is 1" and he needs to show me in his rules to the contrary.

I'm not 100% sure if this was cheating but it was very fishy. Playing Wood Elves with Orion against Dwarves. Setting up for a charge I place Orion about 16" away so that he'll have a harder time shooting at him due to long range. I charge Orion into one unit and a Treeman into another. It just HAPPENS that the guy Orion was charging into had the ability where you have to subtract D6" from your charge (or something like that I hate Dwarves) and the guy the Treeman charged into had the weapon of killing high toughness monsters. Normally I would have chalked that up to bad luck on my part but the game I saw him play earlier had similar "This guy has this rune and this rune, wait no he has that rune, and that guy has this rune but not the original run I said he had" shell game style of moving magic items around until you are too confused to call him on it. The opponent told him just to start the entire close combat phase over and declare exactly what each guy had and somehow it didn't turn out as perfectly for the Dwarf player. Of course he didn't have a list to check.

An ex-GW sales guy shows up to a tourney with an army consisting of one unit of 25+ chosen knights of Khorne with four heroes in it, 3 units of dogs and another unit of dragon ogres. The unit has the magic standard that makes it stubborn. So basically you have this huge points denial army that is coming at you like a train that you either have to deal with or get a draw since the unit it nasty as hell in combat and even if you beat it it's going to get a re-rollable 10 to not break. This tourney is over the course of a month with a game a week. He mashes the first guy and we are all trying to figure out strategies with our respective lists (you submit one and have to use for all the games). The guy he's up against next was looking through the Chaos army book and discovers that the stubborn banner can only be taken on an unmarked hero and thus he can't be in the mega super Khorne unit. He brings this up to the organizers. They give the chaos guy the benefit of the doubt and let him change his list to correct this problem. So for some reason he removes the Khorne mark on the standard bearer and has him sitting outside the unit by himself. The game come up and suddenly that unit isn't so crazy anymore. Gets hit in the flank with Khorngors and crushed. A lot of people were watching because the army had gained a good deal of notoriety and wanted to see it in play. A kid watching asks what happened and my friend tells him that it's pretty much over. The guy FLIPS and starts yelling at everybody about perceived slights and how everyone is out to get him and how he had to use this army because the army he wanted to use (a Storm of Chaos list) wasn't allowed. This went on for 10 minutes and he starts to pick a fight with the biggest guy in the store (WE CAN TAKE THIS OUTSIDE) which would have ended poorly for him. Luckily the big guy talked him down a bit but he never played the rest of the tourney and we never saw him again after that.

Where I play it's not so much cheating as not understanding the basic rules. Watching people play, it's hard to stop yourself from butting in and correcting stuff that is hilariously wrong. I don't think people do it purposely most of the time. Really no one blatantly cheats at all (people that do get called on it almost immediately and either straighten up or are shamed out of the community); I guess I'm lucky that even with the goobers people are generally not the kind of douches that have to try hard at cheating a game.

Drogmir
24-04-2009, 15:18
Here's one that's weird to think about

Tau player uses this flare things that ignore night fighting rules, against my Grey Knight's The Shrouding.

Now logically I don't think this makes sense as you are throwing bright objects at something that's already blinding you.

SPYDER68
24-04-2009, 15:25
Here's one that's weird to think about

Tau player uses this flare things that ignore night fighting rules, against my Grey Knight's The Shrouding.

Now logically I don't think this makes sense as you are throwing bright objects at something that's already blinding you.

If you would have showed him shrouding it says...

normal nightfighting equipment and skills has no effect on shrouding :P

Hypaspist
24-04-2009, 15:32
Here's one that's weird to think about
Tau player uses this flare things that ignore night fighting rules, against my Grey Knight's The Shrouding.
Now logically I don't think this makes sense as you are throwing bright objects at something that's already blinding you.

Pretty sure the FAQ clears up items that affect night fight dont affect the shrouding (might be wrong there, but don't think I am) Edit: ack Ninja'd!

My favourite one is the quick-charge-range-measure, the player extends the measuring tape, declares the unit in and then moves it all before you get a chance to look at what on earth is going on, when we looked at it there was some difficult terrain that would have to be moved to and actually the unit was *Nowhere* near charge range in any way, shape or form.
I have seen the rolling dice into failures before now as well
stretchy tape measure syndrome is also common

This thread has provided me with a lot of laughs though, and also makes me thankful that I play in a cheat free group.... apart from the space marine player who tried taking a Lictor once... but thats a whole different story ;)

MrMojoZ
24-04-2009, 15:44
What's ironic about that? I play cheaters all the time and never (well, almost never) call them on it. I still enjoy the game. Overspent list? Meh. Elastic tape measure? Who cares? Cheaters tend to fall into one of two categories: kids who don't know any better and saddoes for whom victory in a game of toy soldiers is important to their self-esteem.

When it comes to the kids, let 'em cheat! They're involved in a constructive hobby and eventually they'll either learn that it's wrong to cheat and that the only one they're cheating is themselves of an honest victory, or they'll morph into saddoes. Of course, you have to call the good kids on their cheating eventually if you want to save them from the fate of being a saddo.

When it comes to saddoes, I figure these guys need the charity of beating me to brighten their pathetic little lives. It doesn't cost me anything and I just enjoy the chance for a game now and then.

R.

Yes please promote cheating ways. Thank you for making the games others will play against these people terrible as well. :eyebrows:

If children don't know any better, teach them. If someone who should know better is cheating, don't reward them for it.

Yarick Zan
24-04-2009, 18:28
Yes please promote cheating ways. Thank you for making the games others will play against these people terrible as well. :eyebrows:

If children don't know any better, teach them. If someone who should know better is cheating, don't reward them for it.

I pretty much agree. In a sense it can be compared to stealing. People don't see you steal and look away and hope you learn.

Laser guided fanatic
24-04-2009, 20:18
The thing that confuses me is where do all the elastic tape measures come from, Joke Shops?

maelstrom66669
24-04-2009, 21:19
Its wasnt so much cheating as miseading the rules, a few gamers in my club were under the impression that ALL templates didnt need to roll to hit anymore(its just for flamers actually), I damn near bought two more defilers that day, just to destroy them, but ended up telling them to reread it instead.

The Hell Cypher
24-04-2009, 22:10
Most nid players also seem to ignore the fact that synapse says "must take a LEADERSHIP test" and fearless says "passes all MORALE and PINNING tests" so carnifexes, lictors, etc still suffer when out of synapse.

This was addressed in the Tyranid FAQ. Fearless do not roll for instinct behaviour.

Page 28 – Instinctive Behaviour, second paragraph.
The first sentence should be changed as follows:
If all models in a Tyranid brood begin their
Movement phase more than 12” away from a
Synapse Creature, and that unit is not Fearless,
falling back or already in combat, it will revert to
Instinctive Behaviour.

That's right from the FAQ.

LonelyPath
24-04-2009, 22:30
The thing that confuses me is where do all the elastic tape measures come from, Joke Shops?

There way that weird Japanese company that produced one, lol.

Another cheating event now from my latest game. Also, this cheat really shouldn't have happened since I also collect and play the same army. I was up against a pure GK army and I failed to notice that my opponent used his Holy Relic in every round of close combat. Like I said, my fault for not really notiving.

Another cheat from a friend (and thanks to them for sending me this). They were playing some lad in GW Shrewsbury that kept wondering off from the table during my friends turn and then returning later stating that if he'd fired or struck in CC it wouldn;t count since he was away form the table at the time. Please note that on one occasion the kid had gone to the toilet and returned nearly an hour later. In the end my friend conceded the game since he had to catch the train home. The staff informed my friend that the lad has a habit of this and I'm wondering if it's the same person I saw at the Apoc battle for the last Apoc releases in March who kept doing the same thing then.

Lord Cook
25-04-2009, 00:13
Its wasnt so much cheating as miseading the rules, a few gamers in my club were under the impression that ALL templates didnt need to roll to hit anymore

There aren't any template weapons that need to roll to hit. They all hit automatically.

The confusion arises where people call the blast markers "templates". They are not; they are blast markers. Calling the markers templates in common usage is fine, so long as you remember it's just an informal colloquialism, nothing more.

Mouldsta
25-04-2009, 00:56
My favourite came from a kid when I was a staff member - was walking past his game, and he asked what he needed to wound with his bolt pistol. Since it was pretty busy and didn't have time to show him the wounding chart, I glanced at what he was shooting (guardsmen) and told him 3+ figuring I'd explain in a bit more depth when it was a little quieter.

2 minutes later he proudly comes and tells me he's "killed" a leman russ - He'd rolled a 3+ to "wound" when shooting at it with another bolt pistol see..... :D

Not cheating, but merely a brilliant step in logic from not knowing the rules.

hawo0313
25-04-2009, 01:30
I get a few from rule misinterpretations like psy ammo for bolters, true grit complicates things but then when I was told that space amrines had 2 attacks in close combat I ask why he said becasue they have a boltgun and bolt pistol and it counts a 2CCW I believed him so later we play again and I play marines and when he hands over the dice I remind him that I have two attacks per marine he says no the boltgun doesn't count as a close combat weapon I was really annoyed because hed "forgotten" while we played earlier but when I play marines its alright more nnoying than game changing though.

Acheron143
26-04-2009, 02:14
Worst/best case of cheating was from the same guy. We were playing a few years back with plasticy type tailer's rulers... which he'd stretch out just a little with a weight hanging down from his wall. I caught on to him probably 2nd round or so, but it was ingenious and I let it slide, as I told him mine must be damaged so we both just used his.

The second time was the worst... he loaded his dice backwards, and we play by a rule you aren't allowed to swap out from the 12 or so dice you bring originally. which meant a long day of 1s for him.

Lastly a story about my own dice. I was actually playing Battletech in a tourney for prizes, and there had been noises made I was using unfair dice. so I had the store owner toss me two dice across the room and proceeded to rampage through the tourney. Hours later just as the store was closing I'd gone to the till to pay and was fiddling with my dice actually focused on them. They had 1,2,3,5,5,6. So I actually had played with loaded dice and not noticed all day. Rather annoyed me.

Cherub
26-04-2009, 04:05
The tourny I just played in this weekend there was a younging who should NOT be allowed to play competatively. The manager even said that lol. He was caught in his 2nd game cheating, he was rolling dice for his armour save and rolled a bunch of 1`s picked picked up the dice and promply said he passed all of them. lol I felt bad for his dad after someone told him off because of his kid.

Geep
26-04-2009, 06:16
I had one interesting game against a newbie- I didn't call him on anything because he had 'special' circumstances.
We were playing my Necrons vs his Black Templar's- he stated that every game he played followed the old campaign rules, and as he'd played a lot of games with his brothers everything in his army had every upgrade possible (by 'playing his brothers' he meant setting up the armies and then forgetting the game for something else). Among other things this meant all of his vehicles had a -1 on the damage tables, and I had no heavy weapons at the time- I couldn't destroy his vehicles.
I had allowed him to proxy some converted models as land raiders- they looked about the right size, until he went to disembark some assault terminators: The assault ramp came down, then another unfolded, then another and so on until it was almost on top of my Lord's unit- around 16" away. He then deployed his terminators at the end of the ramp...
Somehow, I still won that game though.

In fantasy I was playing an old friend once, who claimed a failed charge still moved the full distance. Neither of us had a book with us, so my friend asked another friend who didn't even know fantasy- they agreed together and I was over ruled. I knew it was wrong but couldn't complain too much- his new positioning helped me a lot.

505
26-04-2009, 07:20
I got started for the hobby side of warhammer but when I moved to an area that had a games store that had open tables my first real game was against a guy who ended being a cheater and a jerk all in one. however I didn't catch him during the game. as I was sitting at home and reflecting on the game I read the rulebook (after finding it) on all the parts I had questions.

the main cheat that I remember (there were at least 6 but I cant remember them all) was his SM vrs my guard during last edition. my Guard had 2 squads (one command heroic SO, commissar, both with power weapons and a priest and my grunts) in a large blown building about 8 inches apart. he assaulted one squad with a librarian and a squad and a chaplain that had also been attached to the squad charged my command squad so we fight out the tac/librarian vs. squad and then he rolls his chaplain and kill a few. I then roll all my power weapons and did well with 4 hits 4 wounds he then removes 4 marines from the squad. I say they are not in the same combat. he replies yeah they are their in the same squad so they are in the same combat. I say you cant charge out of cohesion so the chaplain must be on his own. he calmly states that they only have to start in cohesion. well my rule book was still in storage and he wouldn't take the time to look it up. needlessly to say I lost.

not only that but he was rolling for moral high ground which is apparently a rule from way back.

oh and there was a different guy who had use heat to lengthen the flamer template it was amazingly large.

WallWeasels
26-04-2009, 07:30
I think the best "im not cheating its in ____ rule" is the "oh its in the FAQ" and then no one has said FAQ >_>

Eldartank
26-04-2009, 07:39
A couple of my most memorable cheating experiences:

Playing my Tyranids against a Space Marine player in 3rd edition. My Hive Tyrant charges a squad of Assault Marines. Space Marine player positively insists that the Hive Tyrant's "the horror" rule (the rule that said any unit trying to assault a Hive Tyrant had to firs pass a leadership test or could not assault the Hie Tyrant) meant that the Hive Tyrant "causes fear." And he went on to explain that since the Hive Tyrant "causes fear," then his Assault Squad had to make a leadership test, and if they failed the leadership test, then the Assault Squad would fall back (3d6 inches because of jump packs) and the Hive Tyrant could not pursue, because no close combat had taken place. And as we were using the "voluntary fail a leadership test" optional rule, he attempted to just move his Assault Squad away from my Hive Tyrant. We argued about it and we never finished the game. Later, he agreed to go along with whatever GW said about it, and so I e-mailed them and got the obvious response - basically saying I was right. So he decided that the GW guy was just a company employee who didn't like his job, so whatever he said wasn't valid. I never played any games with him again.

Then there was the Imperial Guard player who fired his Basilisk cannon at one of my Space Marine squads and rolled the scatter dice on the table as far away from my squad as possible. Even there, it was clear that the dice was pointing away from my squad and would have been a miss, but he proceeded to move the template on top of my squad anyway. When I called him on it, he insisted that the dice was pointing right into my squad. He decided to "prove" it by moving the scatter dice closer, changing the direction of the dice as he moved it. I immediately packed up my minis and left the store.

Awilla the Hun
26-04-2009, 08:56
Not quite cheating, but a Tzeentchi Daemons player started taunting his opponent, a Vampire Counts, player about his "Invocation of Ganesh", so he left. Neither player was Hindu, by the way; but A it just goes to prove every rabid anti daemonist "correct", and B the laughter was cruel and mocking in nature.

Tarax
26-04-2009, 09:30
While I can see some people trying to get a rule across, one they came up with or one from an older edition, or doing something else which is against the rules, like moving 1" further; I just can't see people sitting at home thinking: "Now, how can I make my template larger/range ruller longer? I know, I heat it up and stretch it!"

One of mine, though not actually cheating, though I was sort of accused for it. When deploying my opponent wanted to place his infiltrators closer than the required 18", as they were within LoS. We both measured and they were slightly in. He wanted to move them, but I said it was fine. He thought he would have an advantage over me, which he sort of had. He still moved some of them. When it was my turn I moved my Assault Marines 12" and next assaulted him. He then said I couldn't as he was supposed to be outside 18". I measured each distance correctly and actually had to move some models (the closest to his) slightly less than 12" because they otherwise would end up on a wabbly side of a hill.
While I didn't cheat it was fun to see giving your opponent an advantage and meanwhile giving yourself a bigger advantage, though not intentionally. Would it otherwise have been cheating? :angel:

clanfield
26-04-2009, 14:27
the worst every cheating ih had was back in rt eddition a guy rolled for his demons abilitys and just happened to get double atacks (SO 20) a d canon and regeneration for his armour of khorne ,
his first 4 shots killed 4 land raiders not a bad trick in first

Codsticker
26-04-2009, 15:10
The most common thing i see is people adding an inch or two to all of their measurements. One day, against a player who is notorious for doing this, I measured the distance between two of our units at the end of my turn (i know this is cheating, but it was for the greater good). We were about 13.5 inches away from each other. Sure enough, on his turn, he assaulted me with that unit.

One of my regular opponents does this and to keep on top of it, we have to measure how far away he is from his board edge on turn 2 or 3 to show him he can't possibly assault this turn:"It's only turn 2 and with maximum Run moves you can only be X inches away from your table edge but somehow you are X+2.5 inches???"

The only time I ever noticed an opponent cheating at a tournament was when he did the famous measureing from the front of the base to the back when moving his bikes- oddly enough it was just enough to put them in range to get the extra dice on the multi-melta AND allow them to contest the table quarter. :rolleyes:


Another favourite is when we ask did you make your difficult terrain rolls he looks around the table for two dice close each other, one of which is invariably a 5 or A 6; this after I have been very carefully watching his movement phase so I know that he has not rolled any dice.

Chrismage
26-04-2009, 15:22
A while back, in the weeks before a tourney, I was grappling with the choice between two units I wanted to include in my army. Eventually, I made my decision and went to the tourney. I did okay- not remarkably by any means - but a while after the tourney I was shocked to realize that both of those potential units had found their way into my force.

Suffice it to say I've made sure to double check since.:(

Tal'Shar Caltarin
26-04-2009, 20:12
That's actually wrong, just so you know. You only roll saves separately if the models are different. So for example, two marines with boltguns and one with a plasma gun. They suffer six wounds. You put two on the plasma gun and roll separately. Then you put four on the boltguns and roll those four together. Any failed saves equal a dead marine with boltgun.

Identical models always roll all of their saves together as one group.

That's exactly what I said. :confused:

Most common 'nid units (check Gaunts, Hormagaunts, Genestealers) must equip the same biomorphs and weapon symbiotes brood-wide. I kinda see what you're saying for multiple models of the same type in a mixed unit, and yeah, that is what we do (I have not had to do it personally, yet).


Well why the ******* do people LET other people do this? :wtf:

Agreed... Most of that brand of cheating only goes on because people let it.


Evil Inc, i'm still hung up on this tail thing.
You're telling me that this chap walked around in daylight with a tail of some sort attached to his belt. This is quite befuddling.

Nevertheless, 80% of the cheating I see is someone taking advantage of the opponent not knowing their codex. I've fallen for this many a time against a particular tyranid player who regularly fields Gaunts that can assault 12" strength 5 power weapons, 3 attacks each.

Tell me this cannot happen.

A: There's a girl in my Japanese class in college that walks around with a fox tail attached to her back belt loop.

B: This cannot happen. The BEST weapon a Gaunt can get is a S5 Fleshborer (+1 from the Toxin Sac biomorph, +1 from it being a Fleshborer, +3 from his base strength), and that will give him ONE attack (it being an Assault X weapon, and his base attacks being one). Gaunts can get a max of 2 attacks if they use Devourers, with a max of 4 strength (Devourer strength is S -1, whereas Fleshborer is S+1), and that will grant them TWO attacks (Assault 2X). May I note that giving Gaunts Toxin Sacs is in my experience useless, because it turns a swarm of meat shields that don't usually get to shoot into ridiculously expensive meat shields that don't usually get to shoot.


When he tried to convince me they had hit and run I decided to just finish the game and never ever play at that store again.

The only fighter in the regular, 4th edition Tyranid codex that has or can acquire Hit and Run in any way is the Lictor.


Shouldn't they cost way over 50 points? for a one wound T 4 4+ save creature right?

A fully maxed out Genestealer (allowing for the fact that they can only have Acid Maw OR Feeder Tendrils OR Flesh Hooks) costs at MINUMUM 34 points per model. 37 points per model at maximum.


Unfortinatly the Nid guy got wiped in the end due however the ironic thing was that it actually seemed like he enjoyed himself!!!

'Nid players have to learn to enjoy seeing some of their troops get disintegrated into dust. Especially Gaunts. : )


Tyranids are bad for cheating, our nid player got seriously ribbed last wknd for wrting down "beefed" gaunts........ as non of us knew what it was apart from him, oh and taking 8 troops choices, and a 1+ armour save....... and several other things, suffice to say he still got panned, but in future his list gets checked pre game to make sure there's nout dodgy about it

That's kinda sad. Tyranid rules are really weird and convoluted (GW did a horrible job of making it clear exactly what can and cannot be done with their biomorphs and weapon symbiotes), but all the same it's easy to establish a standard and then play by it.

I agree on the Gundam dying because a leg got hit. ^_^ Best thing I've seen.


This was addressed in the Tyranid FAQ. Fearless do not roll for instinct behaviour.

Page 28 – Instinctive Behaviour, second paragraph.
The first sentence should be changed as follows:
If all models in a Tyranid brood begin their
Movement phase more than 12” away from a
Synapse Creature, and that unit is not Fearless,
falling back or already in combat, it will revert to
Instinctive Behaviour.

That's right from the FAQ.

It says the first sentence should be changed as follows, not that it has been. The current codex does not make that specification for Fearless units, and it says that the test taken is a Leadership test (thus noting by omission that it is NOT a Morale test). Therefore a Fearless unit would not automatically pass, and therefore he must take a Leadership test to make sure he doesn't flip out if he's not close to a Synapse creature.

Finn
26-04-2009, 22:30
It says the first sentence should be changed as follows, not that it has been. The current codex does not make that specification for Fearless units, and it says that the test taken is a Leadership test (thus noting by omission that it is NOT a Morale test). Therefore a Fearless unit would not automatically pass, and therefore he must take a Leadership test to make sure he doesn't flip out if he's not close to a Synapse creature.

...are you really trying to argue that because the FAQ simply says "should be changed" instead of "change this entry to", it means nothing? :wtf: I don't know if one "WTF" face is sufficient for that. That's the whole point of an FAQ. The current codex now says, for all intents and purposes (unless you or your organization doesn't know about the FAQ system, in which case one or the other should inform the ignorant party), exactly what the FAQ says it SHOULD say. Good lord.

By your logic, NONE of the FAQ rules changes and clarifications should count, as they all say "should be changed to". Kind of defeats the purpose, don't you think? :eyebrows:


EDIT:

As an aside, I too have been guilty of the accidental inclusion of a Rhino that shouldn't have been there, or forgetting my sergeant modeled with a power weapon really only had a standard CCW that game - I think if you play enough games, everybody's going to do something like that eventually and they usually don't upset the outcome of a game. Thankfully we don't run into much/any actual cheating where I'm from...mature players all.

Which is probably why I've enjoyed reading this thread so much :D

Max Jet
26-04-2009, 22:46
It says the first sentence should be changed as follows, not that it has been. The current codex does not make that specification for Fearless units, and it says that the test taken is a Leadership test (thus noting by omission that it is NOT a Morale test). Therefore a Fearless unit would not automatically pass, and therefore he must take a Leadership test to make sure he doesn't flip out if he's not close to a Synapse creature.

I've got to agree with Finn. You are not serious on this are you?

I too have made a lot of mistakes in the beginning of my career, but I always try to encourage freinds to correct me on this.. I mean.. it is possible to overlook something, that's why you always have rulebook and codicies at hand! Always and always POINT IT OUT!!!!

Bunnahabhain
26-04-2009, 22:57
Of course, you can just change the rules... Does that count as cheating?


Not in 40k, but in other games. You find a stupid rule, you look at your opponent, go "that's daft, that can't" be right and then both agree a change to something more sensible.

I've done that quite a lot in the process of game development.

Brother Gabriel
26-04-2009, 23:31
I was playing against a Tau player with a lot of Crisis suits and he did the the trick to move 2" more per jump very often. He puted the ruler above the models and then started to move them. While he moved the Soldiers around, he also moved the hand, that holds the ruler a little forward. Then he often was not happy with the placement of his troops and puted them back, but he measured the 6" backward movement. Then he repeated that :D.

I told him every now and then in a friendly way, that he was not measuring correctly. And would he do that in a tournament, they would call him a cheater. He became very angry over time actually, but refused to just put the ruler next to the models on the table.

Some game then, he was jumping over some bunker terrain piece. It was a very close thing again, and i could see that he moved over 7" for sure. After he shot, he wanted to jump them behind the bunker again. But now i forced him to measure correctly :D the expression of "to hell with you" on his face was priceless. But since i got him and many who watched the game, at the club saw it too and mocked him, he had no chance anymore to say i was just a bad opponent.

Oh and actually he won many games because of things like that. I have to say that, since many here claim, that cheaters always lose (or at least i got the impression). Thats just not true, cheating gives someone an advantage over you, that you cannot just defeat inside the rules.

Oh and i actually would have played with him many more games, but he didnt enjoy playing me anymore, since i was such a rules lawyer kind of guy :D. So in the end, for him i was wrong because i wanted a correct movement phase...

Tal'Shar Caltarin
26-04-2009, 23:36
I've got to agree with Finn. You are not serious on this are you?

Perhaps I'm a little ignorant of what precisely the FAQ is. Are you referring to the one found on the Warseer page here, or is there one that GW put out that I have heretofore been unable to find?

Warpcrafter
26-04-2009, 23:42
I've played against more than one person who swears up and down that if any of the minuses for glancing hits and such on the vehicle damage chart means that if your adjusted result is 0 or a minus, no damage is caused.

Brother Gabriel
26-04-2009, 23:46
I've played against more than one person who swears up and down that if any of the minuses for glancing hits and such on the vehicle damage chart means that if your adjusted result is 0 or a minus, no damage is caused.

That is why the Vehicle Damage Chart says: 1 or less.

Nabeshin1106
27-04-2009, 00:21
Perhaps I'm a little ignorant of what precisely the FAQ is. Are you referring to the one found on the Warseer page here, or is there one that GW put out that I have heretofore been unable to find?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2

All of the current official FAQs from GW

Hicks
27-04-2009, 00:51
Way back when me and my friends first played some actual 40K games, we didn't have a lot of money and one of my friend's who was playing tyranids pulled the coke can trick on me.

I thought it was very underhanded, he was drinking from it just before the game began and he never even told me that it was a tyrant until he charged my squad of Fleshtearers.

The same dude pulled another bastard move on me. He actually built a board with one half built like half an hourglass with huge foam cliffs on the sides. Basically, my troops had to conga through the 1" opening in the center of the board and would then be shot to hell by his whole army... Let's just say he spent an afternoon building that for nothing.

However, I am happy to say that this guy is now a very nice and fair, if terrible player. :)

Tal'Shar Caltarin
27-04-2009, 00:54
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2

All of the current official FAQs from GW

Awesome. Thanks a ton.

Koryphaus
27-04-2009, 01:26
Well, don't forget that FAQ are 'house' rules, and Errata are official changes to rules (or will be in the next re-print).

Not weighing in on either side of the argument, just thought I'd mention it.

Vote Kantor
27-04-2009, 01:36
Actually, i cheated accidentally for about 6 months. my IG list was 200 points larger than i thaught it was. i checked it, my friends all checked it, and when i found out, somebody on warseer checked it, ALL WITHIN POINTS VALUE!? :wtf: nobody could figure it out. Anyway as soon as i realised, i fixed the list. or just play 1200 point games.

Maxus
27-04-2009, 02:08
Well, don't forget that FAQ are 'house' rules, and Errata are official changes to rules (or will be in the next re-print).

Not weighing in on either side of the argument, just thought I'd mention it.

Um, yes Errata are official changes to rules. The FAQ from Games workshop are not 'house' rules they are answers to Frequently Asked Questions and are officially how you should play the game when said question comes up. Any other source are suggested ways to deal with the question, those are 'house' rules.

i.e. Games Workshop has said you are allowed to turbo boost as a scout movement via their FAQ:

Q. Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout
move?
A. Yes they now can, but remember that they
have to remain more than 12” away from the
enemy as they move.

This is allowed in any game, unless you, your friends, your shop make it known that you will not allow it, that is a 'house' rule

maelstrom66669
27-04-2009, 02:49
There aren't any template weapons that need to roll to hit. They all hit automatically.

The confusion arises where people call the blast markers "templates". They are not; they are blast markers. Calling the markers templates in common usage is fine, so long as you remember it's just an informal colloquialism, nothing more.

On the back of the AoBR set it refer's to them as "three plastic templates" and im pretty sure I've seen them referred to that way other places, which is what started the confusion. :D

Tal'Shar Caltarin
27-04-2009, 03:00
On the back of the AoBR set it refer's to them as "three plastic templates" and im pretty sure I've seen them referred to that way other places, which is what started the confusion. :D

In addition, I looked up the specific rules for "Blast Markers," which say that they too hit automatically.

boogaloo
27-04-2009, 03:33
When the latest Eldar dex came out I ALWAYS forgot to do my wraithsight for my lords. Now... EVERY SINGLE TURN that i'm out of psyker synapse he freeze. I figure one day karma will be fulfilled and my Lords will regain the cognitive skills of at least a five year old. Also as a result of forgetting beginning of the turn actions i regularly forgot my reserves and... Fortune/doom rolls :(

mattschuur
27-04-2009, 06:30
well i was called a cheater because my unit was 16" away from his. Next turn he moves them 6" away from my unit, in a straight line to his left and not an inch forward or backward. Then i move 6" in diagonal direction and end up 13" away. he calls me a cheater. it took 10 minutes for me to show him how angles work and that because he moved in a straight line, neither moving forward or backward i could close the gap by taking an angle perpendicular to his unit. Of course, i learned this playing football, so its not surprising he missed it.

Played a game in 4th against a chaos guy. He made his list after he'd seen mine and then "misplaced" it right after making it so i didn't see it. He then pulls out 3 havoc squads, 2 with 4 heavy bolters and the other with 4 Missile launchers. oh yeah, i was playing ork. Then he has the miraculous melta bomb on his bike, which hed didn't use when he assaulted my Looted Russ (he had Krak Grenades then) lieutenant that kills a dred in combat with bloodletters. He also told me that bloodletters were WS and I 5 with 3 attacks base. I never played him again.

matt schuur

Koryphaus
27-04-2009, 08:04
Um, yes Errata are official changes to rules. The FAQ from Games workshop are not 'house' rules


ERRATA & FAQs

....

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'.

....

- Games Development, November 2008

Emphasis mine.

As I said, I am not weighing in on either side of the FAQ debate, just mentioning some general information.

dblaz3r
27-04-2009, 08:42
Of course, i learned this playing football, so its not surprising he missed it.

Yes because football is the only place to learn trigonometry :eyebrows:

Kurisu313
27-04-2009, 09:27
Yes because football is the only place to learn trigonometry :eyebrows:

Trigonometry? If I understood him right, it wasn't even that. It was Pythagoras.

Corrode
27-04-2009, 09:29
Trigonometry? If I understood him right, it wasn't even that. It was Pythagoras.

Pythagoras' theorem is part of Trigonometry, or the study of triangles.

Kurisu313
27-04-2009, 09:31
Pythagoras' theorem is part of Trigonometry, or the study of triangles.

I just mean that you learn pythagoras' theorem before you learn trig at school. Not understanding sine, cosine and tangent is one thing, but a2+b2=c2? That's pretty poor.

BigBossOgryn
27-04-2009, 09:43
The final nail in the tournament coffin for me came in the form a team of Italians we encountered at a Fantasy GT and before anyone accuses me of veiled racism, I am Italian myself which makes part of the story all the more entertaining.

A group of us went up to this GT mainly for a laugh to get away from the other halves for a weekend. There was a team of Italian players there who were, basically doing what the 2nd or 3rd poster detailed: but this particular instance was priceless. One of our group was playing a member of their team (Skaven Vs Lizards) with the Italian player using Skaven. He fired a warp lightning cannon that bent around a piece of terrain, round a block unit and shot a Skink Priest nestled between 2 other block units.

My friend: "Are you taking the ****?"
Italian: "What?"
My Friend: "They fire in a straight line, not like that"
Italian: "Is straight"
My Friend: "Erm...no it isn't"

At this point a judge is called who simply states that he can not get involved(!?) Also, more of the offending players team mates turn up and begin conversing amongst themselves. My friend turns to me and asks what they are saying, so for fun I begin translating, aloud, every word they were saying. They all look at me and I just smile and say back in Italian that they should be careful who is listening. My friend wins the game after allowing the guy to take the shot and the useless judge is dismissed by friend, who is cautioned for calling the judge an idiot.

Kulgur
27-04-2009, 11:06
meh, main one that annoys me is measuring front to back (from front of the base, to the back of the base, so you gain the width of the base). I once had someone try it with penitent engines and their large bases

Nicha11
27-04-2009, 11:45
I once accidentally cheated with my lizzies in fantasy.

I thought my EOTG did 2d6 hits instead of 1D6.
It was only after wiping half a wood elf army in one turn that i thought something was up.

dblaz3r
27-04-2009, 11:53
Trigonometry? If I understood him right, it wasn't even that. It was Pythagoras.

My understanding of mathematical concepts is not what it used to be, 13 years out of school doing mind numbingly boring menial jobs and a few too many head injuries will do that. ;):p

robnixon
27-04-2009, 12:13
when i was playing a game against a friend who needed to pass both his invun saves for his character to survive. he rolled one and it was a one, he then aimed the next dice to hit the other one and proceeded to roll two sixes because hed changed the first one with the second one. he was like when you roll them all together they change them when they hit the board and i was like yeah, but when a dice has been rolled and you deliberatly change it its cheating, he started to pack up and said he wouldnt play if i was gonna be like that

what a douche

wlfhi
27-04-2009, 12:13
Once I accidentally cheated with loaded dice. A while ago I got a pair of big dice, and after using them for a while I found that they were unlucky because they usually rolled ones. I used them for leadership for a while until I decided to test them for being loaded, and they were! I've never used them again, though.

Mouldsta
27-04-2009, 13:03
I've cheated myself before - was playing Dark Heresy and rolled an exceedingly low staline, followed by never doing much damage - turns out I was using D8 rather than D10 :(

Awesome Mike
27-04-2009, 20:21
I've accidentally made mistakes before.

Using necrons in a low point game I took a single destroyer. They are 3-5/unit and i got that mixed up with the heavy destroyer which is 1-3/unit.

I've accidentally let my friend attack a Monolith with a daemon prince forgetting he wouldn't get 2d6 against it. He destroyed it quickly.

We both always forget plague marines have blight grenades when I assault them. That's cheating cause we aren't following the rules, even though neither of us remember it.

For others cheating I recently played an Eldar player who I guess was just getting used to 5th ed.

Moving into a building 6 inches he moved 6 over and 6 up.
He measured to shoot then decided to assault.
He used crack shot and fast shot in the same turn.
He rolled the saves for his group of warlocks separately and only removed 2 of 4 when those 2 both failed 2 saves.
The buildings we used were bases and came out an inch from the building (cool little sidewalks). I put all my marines on the edge since it's area terrain and he fires AP3 guns at me saying I don't get a cover save.
When moving his 20 man guardian unit he would move the front one 8 inches, then bring the back one which was already 8 inches away up next to him.

Talos
27-04-2009, 20:45
The main things that annoys me are people who forget to move something and then in there shooting phase ask if they can. I say sure as I am a nice guy but when the same thing happens to me they say no WTF ! At that point I normal just pack up.
In my first game with the new guard I had brought all my guard models and I was setting up and I set up 2 more guard squad than where in my army. Lucky I saw the error when I looked at my list to see what wargear something had. It was only turn 2 and the two units had not done anything so I removed them.

self biased
27-04-2009, 21:25
we used to have a dude that would regularly field about a third more points than what was agreed to. it became so commonplace that we just started factoring in the 'Ron 30%' when we played him.

dala_karn
27-04-2009, 21:52
a kid trying to convince me that his ork dread (3rd edition rules) can have 4 close combat weapons with only 2 arm sockets.

it was during a 10000pts battle myself, four friends and 6 strangers had. night lords, word bearers, thousand sons, speed freaks and traitor guard (my side) against space wolves, tyranids, necron, blood angels and orks. they also didn't have a physical army list (it was in their heads and their force could of been 8000pts for all we know) and though we lost i got the best model award from the store owner, got me a free box set of my choosing (£18 max).

Kahadras
27-04-2009, 22:16
My best one is the deep striking army of Doom. A few years ago I ended by playing a CSM player at my local GW. What I didn't expect was the most blatent cheating I've ever seen in my life. Basicaly we were playing a 1500 point game. My opponant claims not to have an army list but says he plays 1500 point games all the time so knows exactly what he usualy takes.

So off we go. He's got a fair amount of stuff on the table but I'm pretty sure he has at least a couple of demon units to be summoned on the table. So on turn two while I'm distracted by one of his mates I hear a clatter of dice on the table and turn back to be informed that he's made his reserve rolls. 'OK' I think and let it slide. On comes three units of Bloodletters. 'Well that's that I think' and the game continues.

On turn three he murmers something about reserve rolls and throws a few dice at the table. I'm kinda puzzled as all of his stuff should pretty much be on the table by now. So the guy dives into his carrycase again and down comes a large Terminator squad and another unit of Bloodletters. I give him a 'That's enough now' look and on we go.

Next turn he announces the rest of his reserves are comming on. I pretty much fall about laughting as he gets ANOTHER unit of Terminators out of his bag AND a BLOODTHIRSTER! He now nearly 2000 points on the table. When I ask him how many more reserves he has left he looks a bit unsure and tells me he thinks he still has another unit of Bloodletters still to come down. The game pretty much ends there.

Kahadras

MrMojoZ
27-04-2009, 22:43
Next turn he announces the rest of his reserves are comming on. I pretty much fall about laughting as he gets ANOTHER unit of Terminators out of his bag AND a BLOODTHIRSTER! He now nearly 2000 points on the table. When I ask him how many more reserves he has left he looks a bit unsure and tells me he thinks he still has another unit of Bloodletters still to come down. The game pretty much ends there.

Kahadras

Thats about the time my seven extra Leman Russes need to make their reserve rolls. :chrome:

Mannimarco
27-04-2009, 22:47
lot of daemons there..........so many in fact that i think you should have rolled for brother captain stern and around 50 of his grey knight buddies to come down.............in a pair of thunderhawks

LonelyPath
27-04-2009, 22:54
Thats about the time my seven extra Leman Russes need to make their reserve rolls. :chrome:

And my 4 ten-man units of PAGK Teleport Attack squads :P

More cheating spotted over the weekend at GW Shrewsbury.

A small game of Warhammer, Dwarfs vs Daemons and the Daemon player routinely rolls attack and wound dice 1 at a time into once another if they're rolled low. Meanwhile the dwarf player is doing the same in return, so 1 cheat cancels out the other. I made a mental note to not play against them at this point. The daemon player later had the Masque of Slaanesh die, he rolls his saves and before removing the model menions an urgent need for the loo and runs off. When he returns about 20 minutes later (with a drink and finishing a snack) he claims he's rolling his saves for the Masque which are then passed. Again I note never to play against these players.

kane40k
27-04-2009, 22:58
meh the only thing ive found in jolly old braintree is people moving modles inaccurately in other words they move like 9" instead of 6, in effect often getting them into assault in turn 2 :O however somethimes this can be advantagous!

Overlord Krycis
27-04-2009, 23:09
I've come across quite a few in the many years of gaming...
We've all heard of the player who has too many points...but one game i had recently was ridiculous.
1000pts game, my orks vs opponent's Guard horde.
We got about 2 turns in when he suddenly realises he "forgot" to deploy some units...so reserves roll goes, he gets the one unit he said he forgot and a whole EXTRA PLATOON turn up.
In Chimeras.
It's at this point i politely ask to see his list (which he wrote right in front of me) only to find that there isn't ANY platoons in his list (grenadiers) and no transports, despite starting with a platoon and an armoured fist squad.
When i ask he says, completely innocently, "I was sure it was 1000pts"...

The "slight of hand" one is a common occurance for one player in my local store...he'll regularly roll a load of dice, mutter something, then re-roll.
He also uses Warptime to re-roll armour/inv saves despite being told a dozen times that's not how it works.
Even bookmarked the page for him... :D

Mannimarco
27-04-2009, 23:14
afriad to say my experience of cheating hasnt been as funny as half of these, just the "2mm out of range" problem: your rough riders cant charge my khorne berserkers cos they're just out of range bay a fraction of a centimeter, next turn guess what happend? you guessed it my rough riders are wiped out in CCW

cool0001
28-04-2009, 01:58
Unfortunatly I was playing in a 1000pt tornament at my local GW and I'd mixed up my lists and accidently ended up puting my 1500pt list out against necrons. I didn't realise til after the game. It didnt matter he still beat me.

40kdhs
28-04-2009, 02:03
I'm a bit bored and would like to read your best stories of abysmal cheaters and the sort of rule bending best suited to legal eagles.

Here is one of my personal fav:

Arranged a game at a local club of 1500pts playing rouge trader. He used eldar and having added the points up based on my eldar army it was about 600 over. Being a poor student I had to bus it everywhere and only took what I needed so just played and got thrashed. This happened in the next few games we played.

Finally, a mate and I decided a taste of his own medicine was needed. So we took everything we owned on the bus and turned up for a 1500pt game. We did a quick tally and added an extra 500pts. He noticed as we stood there smiling and said, oh, by the way I forgot this and added a few more 100 points. My mate said something like: "oh silly me we forgot the orc contingent that are playing with the marines and put 1000pts of orcs down". This went on like this and eventually when he run out of models this guy put about 5000pts down in a 1500pt game. As there were two of us we made it to almost 10000pts and kicked his butt back to cheater ville.

It was so funny. He was seriously pissed but couldn't really say anything. We gave him another chance and next time had 1500pts on the dot. Showed me his list and everything. It was a good game, managed to beat him pretty well and never saw him again.

Sadly, you were NOT doing anything different. You were like him. You can't be a better person when you 'cheat'. Who knew? He probably miscaculated the point.

You should win when you and your friend had 5000+ pts over.

Tal'Shar Caltarin
28-04-2009, 05:16
Sadly, you were NOT doing anything different. You were like him. You can't be a better person when you 'cheat'. Who knew? He probably miscaculated the point.

You should win when you and your friend had 5000+ pts over.

There's a difference between cheating to beat a cheater and very obviously and satirically playing his own game as a way of calling him out. The first is stupid and the second is, in my opinion, witty, classy and funny. :p

Lord Wasa
28-04-2009, 05:17
Sadly, you were NOT doing anything different. You were like him. You can't be a better person when you 'cheat'. Who knew? He probably miscaculated the point.

You should win when you and your friend had 5000+ pts over.

I seriously doubt anyone would miscalculate that much a number of times in a row, seriously in that case he should've thought something was wrong after winning so easily a number of times.

And the "arms-race" they had with the guy is would be very illogical in my book if the dude was innocent, wouldn't he have said anything then?

That said, I would never have done a thing like that, I need to be 110% sure that someone knowingly is a cheater first, and the only way one can be 110% (or even 100%) sure is if they come clean.

EDIT: +1 internet for Tal'Shar Caltarin

stevegb
28-04-2009, 05:56
That said, I would never have done a thing like that, I need to be 110% sure that someone knowingly is a cheater first, and the only way one can be 110% (or even 100%) sure is if they come clean.

First, I agree, but this was 20+ years ago and I was only 17 :)

Anyway, my story was just the general highlight and this guy cheated in so many other ways too. I remember offering to get some refreshments. Said I'd be about 10-15 to get to the shop and back and agreed he would look after the table (we were in a semi public hall). When getting back all his units had moved and there were dice by them and he told me that he taken his movement and rolled all his to hits whilst I was out and left the dice where they were so I could see. There must have been 50+ dice at this stage of the game without a single 1 - I am not kidding in anyway - and there was only about 5 misses. I said, half jokingly, "why do you cheat so much". He apologised and re-rolled but wouldn't sort the movement. Anyway, later in the game I went to the loo and came back and he had rolled with a key unit and guess what: six sixes. No word of a lie. The guy was a serial cheater and when we demonstrated his own tactics he stopped, lost and left. My methods weren't too cool, but funny, and I am sure as can be he was cheating, especially as he admitted to the dice rolling episode (and this was in a game where he was at least a third over). For a 17 year old with no shortage of opponents I think I was pretty patient. :)

And on that point. This guy knew the rules and point values of everything inside out. When ever there was a rule query he was correct. This kinda helped develop our cunning plan as when hatching it we did briefly discuss if he was innocent. ;)


Steve

sing Sang a song
28-04-2009, 06:57
eh classic deep strike reinforcement cheating method. lol i was playing a tau player 1.5k game with my word bearer, and at 1st everything was normal untill, he starts to roll for the reserve on 2nd turn that he never told me about. I have tau army book, and i already knew he was cheating on his points, so i did my counter action, deep striking my Lesser and Greater daemons. We ended up with like 2.5k pts each? and my field looked like chaos gods gave all their love to all of my champions, for all of them became greater daemons lol. later we just laughed and just called it a day.

The Muster of Rohan
28-04-2009, 10:18
But the all out Cheese-master 5000 army:-

2 Cadian armies (and it had to be Cadian, the EoT campaign was on at the time and the main guard book wasn't out yet) with 6 Basilisks, and two units of 5 kasrkin as troops.


Your army was very cool. The Guard army you mention above belonged to two colleagues of mine from GW East Kilbride. Four of us went down (leaving just the store manager to run the store all weekend...oops!)

Those two cheesed out their army (as they both did EVERY army I ever saw them use!) while my partner and I used a Lost and the Damned army (from Codex: EoT). His half had a Basilisk and a couple of Guard squads, my half was Plague Zombies made from Cadian and zombie models, and a single Nurgle Champion. We didn't rank terribly highly, though we won a couple of games.

That was a great weekend, but as Steel Legion for Life notes, the gaming hall was a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Son of Russ
28-04-2009, 13:06
While playing against a 3,500 point Tyrand force, the player insisted that Synapse also stopped AP2 weapons from punchiung through his Fex armour. Tried to say it was the same as instant death. Tried it every frickin' time.

Also tried measuring for assaults before declaring them.

Pooky
29-04-2009, 01:23
Played a game in 4th against a chaos guy. He made his list after he'd seen mine and then "misplaced" it right after making it so i didn't see it.

I had someone do this to me as well! I was playing a Genestealer horde and he was playing SM. When he saw that I was pulling out GSs he suddenly put back 1/2 of his models and was rummaging around in his case. Suddenly there were Whirlwinds, a Heavy Bolter Devestator squad and Land Speeder Tornados. He got first turn and there was nothing left of mine by the end of turn 2. He then said it was a good game :mad:

Joewrightgm
29-04-2009, 01:30
My friend and I (who are kind of instigators) told this guy who is a known cheater and baby-seal clubber (his opponents are all 12 and younger).

We told him that if he moved his tape measure with his models, he could get an extra inch of movement; he then did this immediately.

knighthawke70
29-04-2009, 01:46
i played a 2 vs 2 (at about 2500pt each person). he was an absoloute rules nazi. everytime i made a move or my partner did anything, he was a dictator. when he would get this point across he would shout 'RULES LAYWER' and give his partner a 'high 5'. but the thing i caught him later on was a while back i played again him my partner and i were CSM & CD, vs BT & IG. when it came to CC he did the same thing. however, when i got into CC with the BT he insisted that the amount of CC attacks are going to be more because of the new 5th ed space marine rules came out. then the rest was history. i really wanted to beat the crap out of this *****, but i want to keep playing in the store and i really dont wat to go to jail. the best thing to do is not play against him anymore. not to mention i found out that no one either like this guy or wants to play him again. i realize that i am not a full fledged expert on the rules, and yes i do make mistakes. there is no reason whatsoever to be a rules nazi or be an annoying PITA.

Axis
29-04-2009, 02:42
Scatter dice people **** me off. These are the ones that are exceptionally vague about which direction the scatter is pointing. Fair enough you can't be expected to get it 100% right but some people i know try to get an extra 45 degrees or something. It is just stupid.

We are pretty lax about movement. We move the front ones precisely and just guestimate for the rest but we both know what 6 is and we don't try get extra movement. Sometimes a dude at the back might move 6.5-7 inches but never more than that.

The only other thing is that often we fudge charge distances if it looks to be a particularly entertaining combat (and also only if it won't dramtically affect the outcome of the game!). So things like getting commanders into combat with each other on turn 5.

However you both have to agree. In fantasy i hate people who just ignore the fact the regiments need to wheel thus generating a lot more movement.

Warforger
29-04-2009, 03:04
Lascannons inside IG Battle Cannons
Double Leman Russes in a DH army
Not sufficient troop choices for allies
use of old 4th edition LoS rules rather then 5th ed which everyone knew
BS8 Inquisitor ( It was the bonus for having a warrior, which had a 0-1 limit on the bonus, and it was actually WS, but I didn't realize that first part until the end of the game, which the Inquisitor was long gone)

Some of this stuff I pointed out and he fixed, but most of it I just let him by since it was a while since I played a 40k game and I didn't want to waste time bickering (in fact we already were notorious for bickering the most)

Dexter099
29-04-2009, 07:41
Come on, guys, don't worry too much about cheating in warhammer...

Go watch competitive junior tennis, and cheating will be redefined on a whole new level.

Grindgodgrind
29-04-2009, 12:40
Ha, recently I had a game with a german guy. The german guy started pulling out some outrageous stuff with his Tau, like suddenly adding in units of reserves that seemingly spawned from nowhere. It was about then that my comedy german accent, crafted after watching many fine comedies on the BBC, started to kick in.

sliganian
29-04-2009, 14:12
Ha, recently I had a game with a german guy. The german guy started pulling out some outrageous stuff with his Tau, like suddenly adding in units of reserves that seemingly spawned from nowhere. It was about then that my comedy german accent, crafted after watching many fine comedies on the BBC, started to kick in.

Ha! Or better, just start tossing out random "Rammstien" lyrics at him when he asks a question.

German Guy: "Vhat's your armour save?"
You: "Du hast mich!"
German Guy: *blink blink* "Ummm... vhat?"
You: "Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein!"
German guy: "You are scaring me..."

Grindgodgrind
30-04-2009, 17:41
Nah, mine was based on such timeless programming as 'Allo 'Allo. He loved it.

Captain Corallis
30-04-2009, 17:59
I hate the scatter dice issue too. Sadly the problem with me is that people roll the dice on the opposite side of the table and then when trying to determine the direction with a measuring tape, they bend their arm. Suspiciously this almost always results in deep strike squads being miraculously one inch safe from the deep strike mishap table....

Cpt Corallis

laudarkul
30-04-2009, 18:14
What I do not understand is why cheating:O:(? I mean is for fun and what's the point in having fun by cheating?

Bookwrak
30-04-2009, 18:28
Because 'winning' is one of those things hard-wired deep into the human brain, and some people just aren't as good at either resisting, or really even noticing when it's influencing them.

And others have so much 'fun' just from 'winning' that they don't even think twice about where and why they cheat.

SaleanDominus
30-04-2009, 18:30
Cheating in my gaming group has been limited to two individuals really. One took too many characters in a WHFB game (I no longer play him, but for other reasons altogether).

The second one I still play (I do like second chances), but I have caught him cheating with measurements (the extra inches have been tremendous at times). Once, during fourth edition 40K I deployed a tactical squad 20 inches from him (you had to be 18 inches from each other). On turn two, his terminators reached my lines (this was obviously before the run rule). I of course reacted and he acted the way he always does when you catch him...like a five-year old (he is now nearing 30) :eyebrows:
I have also caught him several times with too many points, all the way from 10 to 622 (an exact calculation) and some times he has taken more choices than he is entitled to. He is also quite liberal with the scatter dice...

At the start of this year I really told him off. I said clearly that I wouldn't be playing him again if he continued with this behavior. Again he acted like a five-year old, BUT he has improved somewhat lately.
I'd say the only way to deal with cheaters is confrontation, in any way possible.

kendaop
30-04-2009, 18:43
Recently there was a guy who tried to tell me that a SM captain w/ thunderhammer couldn't split his attacks between two targets he was in B2B contact with. I proceeded to pull out the rulebook and look it up, but he told my teammate (who is kinda new to 40k) to keep going. After disregarding two of my commands to stop so I could look it up, he just ignored me. Next turn, he didn't have a word to say when I showed him that I was right.

Onichi
30-04-2009, 20:58
I have a few friends who cheat, and usually I just let it slide and look it up later. This is because one of them will not let me look at the codex he is using during the game, but keeps a core book as close as possible to himself. I've watched him not roll for Stupidity on his Cold Ones (when confronted I even had to show him in the Fantasy Rule book where they're used at the example of Stupidity ><), or Wraithsight on his Wraithguard, which he uses the variant rules to take them as troop. He's also rules mongered assault turns and then 'forgets' when its his turn to assault. >.<

My other chum is harder to find out if he is cheating. He's a reasonably intelligent fellow, but he seems to remember old rules instead of the current. However, at least when called he "tries harder to remember" and at least if you use the rule he used earlier he won't bat an eyelash. So I often let him slide but I will quickly remind him if I notice the trend.

But these do not make for a good story, here is my story and it is on a Games Workshop Employee!

So for the Opening day for a local shop here in So Cal about 4 years ago, they were holding the contest Halls of Khorne (iirc the name properly, please correct if I am wrong). The Challenge is that you can use any Independent Character with up to 200 points worth of Wargear and if you bested 9 Bloodthirsters you were gifted a 2000 point army of your choosing by the store and painting sessions for them. This was about when I started so I bought the Fantasy Chaos Codex and a Khorne Lord, since I love a good Melee, and painted him that night.

Come the Opening Day Weekend I step up and try my shot. I had maximized on as many Attacks as I could, figuring numbers would rule in my favor. I was then called on it by said employee in the shop. I mentioned the wargear and he said I was one short. I reminded him that my Lord is of Khorne, and has the Mark, giving him +1 attack. "Oh of course, and we are using Bloodthirsters so I will roll their extra attack from now on as well."

...

I did however do the best anyone in the store had known, abusing the 'thirsters size so I was only in base contact with no more than 2 at a time. But I killed 3 Bloodthirsters and had one wound left on the fourth before I was down. I would still be upset about the whole ordeal if that employee (who shall still remain nameless) was still working there. My latter mentioned amigo was there that day and he still says I should have bitched a fit, but whatever.

Edit: I think it was Korridors of Khorne. That seems more sound.

40kdhs
01-05-2009, 06:01
I don't understand why people need to cheat in order to win a game.

Hexfourth
01-05-2009, 10:00
I don't understand why people need to cheat in order to win a game.
Some people think they might be at a disadvantage or be in an "unfair" situation. This could lead them to believe that their rule-bending is rationalized. Or perhaps a lack of confidence? There are a lot of reasons why people might cheat in order to win a game. Probably depends on the person who's attempting to get away with it.

d0dgeuk
01-05-2009, 11:14
I remember playing someone back in 2nd edition when I was at school. I went to the loo and when I came back a unit that I was about to assault had magically moved a couple of inches back. I asked my opponent what he was doing and he adamantly denied moving the squad away despite the fact that it was no longer near the terrain piece it was previously standing by. An argument followed which concluded with me basically saying ok whatever lets just get on with it. Can't remember the result of the game (it was over a decade ago!) just remember that I never played the guy again.

With regards to 40kdhs's comment



I don't understand why people need to cheat in order to win a game.


I think for some people winning comes first before all other considerations. The ones that claim forgetfulness when they bend or even break the rules but magically able to quote BRB page numbers and codex faq's at you whenever they want. The ones that will measure from front to back of base to gain the extra inch. The ones that will liberally interpret the scatter dice arrow. Anything in order not to lose. I've played them and I don't enjoy it. If that works for them then fine, just doesn't do it for me. I'd like to remain friends with the people I play.

Lamoron
01-05-2009, 12:05
Playing a 2v2 battle some ten years ago, my ally wen't to the bathroom and I left to buy a drink. Earlier we had commented on the fun fact, that me and one opponent looked slightly alike and had the same coat (if you can see where this is going). I came back and found one of my opponents with his back turned, moving some regiments (WHFB) around, and the guy who looked like me was missing.

My opponent turned his head halfway around and said "these suckers will never notice", to which I could only reply... "oh... I'm guessing they will".

Shadowlance
01-05-2009, 13:12
Playing a 2v2 battle some ten years ago, my ally wen't to the bathroom and I left to buy a drink. Earlier we had commented on the fun fact, that me and one opponent looked slightly alike and had the same coat (if you can see where this is going). I came back and found one of my opponents with his back turned, moving some regiments (WHFB) around, and the guy who looked like me was missing.

My opponent turned his head halfway around and said "these suckers will never notice", to which I could only reply... "oh... I'm guessing they will".

LOL and yet some people wonder why they aren't successful


this is a good cheating story I'v overheard at a gamming tournament

Me and a couple of mates were playing in a 1000p 40K tournament. we were setting up for our next games when we overheard some other players talking about how a tyranid player just got disqualified. this is how it happened.

these two guys were setting up to play, one a teenage guy that collected tyranids and the other a 8-9 year old space marine player. the marine player had set up and the Nid player was just finishing deploying. he then said "oh i also have 3 caniflexes". we were thinking wtf at this point. this marine player didn't think much of it, fortunatly one guy walking past saw that this was not right and told a referee. when the ref confronted this nid player he tried and failed to argue that his army list was right. in the end judge got sick of this as it was not the first time this nid player had tried doing this so, he just took him out of the tournament

it turns out he was trying to field a 1600 point list...some people just dont have what it takes to cheat lol

d0dgeuk
01-05-2009, 13:17
it turns out he was trying to field a 1600 point list...some people just dont have what it takes to cheat

Hee hee, yeah this is definitely true. Does make you wonder how people think they won't get found out! And then wonder why nobody wants to play them anymore.

Shadowlance
01-05-2009, 13:22
Hee hee, yeah this is definitely true. Does make you wonder how people think they won't get found out! And then wonder why nobody wants to play them anymore.

or even how they still think they are superior lol, fail on their part

Mercer
01-05-2009, 13:23
Not cheating as such, but a played against someone who said I had to allocate saves onto my special/heavy weapons models before any others were allocated. Book says I can allocate them onto any model I want!

adreal
01-05-2009, 13:29
I haven't seen anyone cheat in a long, long time, mainly because if anyone cheats in our gaming group, their opponent gets a rematch and they get to use a 1750 points army consisting of 40 Nobz in trukks..


Really we get to do that??


It's not actual cheating, and the guy has stopped doing it (IIRC), but a player would just roll a binch of dice and say we had saves, not on what unit or what shot at what, just that we had saves, sometimes that stuff was just dead......kinda annoying

Lamoron
01-05-2009, 14:13
You guys are amazingly patient... thankfully I've only ever experienced that one incident, but most of what you described would have let to either blodshed or the death of miniatures in my world.

Scenario 1. The points cheater.
"You have exactly 30 second to pack up and conceed this game, or I'm going to get my hammer and destroy anything I find to be in excess of the points limit for this game"

Scenario 2. The movement cheater.
"Your guys sure run faster than mine... shall we see if the same principle applies in real life?"

Scenario 3. The dice cheater.
"Ever wonder if dice are digestable? no? well next time you roll like that, you're going to find out mate!"

Nerdrage CAN be channeled into good old fashioned violence.

Sheena Easton
01-05-2009, 15:20
Most of my early 40K games were played against TWO chronic cheaters. Usually both at the same time and both had been playing for far longer than I had. Though the upside was I learned how to play well very quickly...

Though the worst cheat I ever encountered was a staff member at a Games Day table where not only did he break EVERY rule, made up a bunch of others, did the extra move thing, moved my models BACK claiming they had already moved / couldn't move / had moved too far, pulled upgrades out of thin air, wouldn't allow shooting, changed generals 3 times over the course of the game... basically anything he could do to cheat, he did. And he still lost. :rolleyes:

pookie
01-05-2009, 15:56
Though the worst cheat I ever encountered was a staff member at a Games Day table where not only did he break EVERY rule, made up a bunch of others, did the extra move thing, moved my models BACK claiming they had already moved / couldn't move / had moved too far, pulled upgrades out of thin air, wouldn't allow shooting, changed generals 3 times over the course of the game... basically anything he could do to cheat, he did. And he still lost. :rolleyes:

The staffer who tried to tell me i was cheating during 2nd edition with my assassin, i almost reduced him to tears, he'd forgot that they had a inv save, and was so willing to bet his entire army against me on it, must have thought that theres no way a 13 year old kid could be right and him be wrong.....

2000 points of Marines later he found out who was right...

MrMojoZ
01-05-2009, 16:06
The staffer who tried to tell me i was cheating during 2nd edition with my assassin, i almost reduced him to tears, he'd forgot that they had a inv save, and was so willing to bet his entire army against me on it, must have thought that theres no way a 13 year old kid could be right and him be wrong.....

2000 points of Marines later he found out who was right...

Pfft everyone knew bout the Assasin dodge save, nice job. :D

pookie
01-05-2009, 16:12
Pfft everyone knew bout the Assasin dodge save, nice job. :D

obviously not :D

though i couldnt have taken his army even though he genuinly would have given me it, even in those days i was too honest for my own good. though got the odd 'back hander' from him for a while until he left GW's employment.

DivineVisitor
02-05-2009, 02:32
One of the ones i always found most annoying was when ordanance was scatering.

The dice would be rolled at the other end of the table. Away from the object in question being scattered. A ruler or stick would then be placed over the die to calculate the scatter angle. However when the ruler was moved to the scattering pie plate it suddenly changed direction due to the movement of the person's arms or the rotation of their body.
This would get rather irritating as for some reason i was the only one that seemed to notice such an occurance, even if other people got involved they would watch and say; "Yea so? Whats he doing wrong there?" i sometimes had to just bite my tongue and go with it in order for the game to progress. To me it didn't seem difficult to spot or comprehend but other's just didn't get it.

Nowadays i try to make sure they roll the die beside where the object is scattering. but if they don't i simply tell them to put down the ruler, slap another on down on the table beside the scatter die and tell them if the angle hasn't changed then both rulers should be parralel to each other.

The_Outsider
02-05-2009, 15:05
One of the ones i always found most annoying was when ordanance was scatering.


It is because of this my group has sorta enforced the rule of "any scatter die must be rolled close to their intended target" to minimise this problem.

The actual 2D6 roll can be done anywhere, the the scatter die much be close.

Codsticker
02-05-2009, 16:13
One of the ones i always found most annoying was when ordanance was scatering.


It is because of this my group has sorta enforced the rule of "any scatter die must be rolled close to their intended target" to minimise this problem.
That's what we do, as well, for the above problem.

I caught my best buddy (who doesn't normally cheat) move his deepstriking unit in way that was not consistent with the scatter die to avoid LOS blocking terrain, which would have made them useless for a turn or two. I had to chuckle to myself; as he normally has pretty horrible luck I didn't call him on it.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
04-05-2009, 03:24
Man, so many of these are just... Surreal. I mean, how the hell did the Bright Lance/Starcannon guy think he'd get away with that? I can understand loose measurement... But man.

CushionRide
04-05-2009, 04:16
i was playing a 4 player team battle with some of my friends. it consisted of my tau army, my teamate played a 'nid army that was made by my other friend. my friend's friend playing dark angels and my friend with an armored company. well the nids were all geared for hand to hand and got practically wiped off the map before they even got to kill anything. :P then i took out about half the armored company by using the old orca tactic of rapid deployment.

i dropped 2 units of crisis suits, and 3 firewarrior units infront of his tank line, after his turn i had enough emp available to take out 2 leman russ's, a baneblade, and 2 basalisks. the orca killed and disabled 2 demolisher leman russ's with its weapons lol. the funny thing is that when we were resolving the hits on the baneblade, i dealt 4 penetrating hits on it. we resolved the first 3. i took the structure points off, then he repaired one. my freind tried to tell me that because i got his structure point back, that i didnt get to resolve my 4 penetrating hit. i read the rules for super heavy results to him showing him that he was full of crap. his response to me was that because it wasnt mentioned that it didnt mean that it wouldnt happen. i havent played a game against him since then.

that was about a year ago maybe 2. he's done some other crappy things to me so i dont really associate with him much anymore, it is sad. everytime i try to repair our relationship as freinds he just does something even more stupid so i finally gave up... oo sorry i got emo there lol

SAndres316
04-05-2009, 04:22
At our store, we have this guy who's too cheap to buy his own Ork vehicles so he scratch builds them, which would be cool.....if the vehicles weren't twice the size they should be.

His Trukks are the size of Land Raiders and his Battle Wagon is the size of, if not bigger, THAN A BANEBLADE. He also once tried to say that his BW's side armor was 14. He also moves about 8 inches for his normal moves because he's too lazy to match his measurements exactly.

Solar_Eclipse
04-05-2009, 08:06
he Challenge is that you can use any Independent Character with up to 200 points worth of Wargear and if you bested 9 Bloodthirsters you were gifted a 2000 point army of your choosing by the store and painting sessions for them.

Damn that sounds like fun...

Hmmm.

Grey Knight Grand Master:
Master Crafted Nemesis force weapon
Master Crafted Psycannon
holy Relic- (+1 attack per game)
Icon of the Just (4+ invulnerable)
Sacred Incense (-1 In to enemies in combat)
Groimore of true names (halves enemy WS)
Bionics (6+ get back up save)
Sanctuary OR Destroy Daemon OR Scourging.

OR

Inquisitor Lord:
Master Crafted Psycannon
Master Crafted Blade of Phaedron (wounds Daemons on a 2+ and gets +D3 attacks when charging daemons
Icon of the Just
Groimore of True names (halves their WS)
Consecrated Scrolls (use 2 psychic powers a turn once per game)
Digiweapons (S4 hit in combat at +2 In)
Sacred Incense (-1 enemy In)

3 Acolytes with Storm shields and CCW's
3 Combat servitors
4 Familiars
Word of the Emperor (Ld test or charge)
Sanctuary (no daemon in 3")
Destroy Daemon (reroll hits and wounds)
Scourging (D6 S5 hits with no Inv. Saves)

burning crome
05-05-2009, 01:24
Damn that sounds like fun...

Hmmm.

Grey Knight Grand Master:
Master Crafted Nemesis force weapon
Master Crafted Psycannon
holy Relic- (+1 attack per game)
Icon of the Just (4+ invulnerable)
Sacred Incense (-1 In to enemies in combat)
Groimore of true names (halves enemy WS)
Bionics (6+ get back up save)
Sanctuary OR Destroy Daemon OR Scourging.

OR

Inquisitor Lord:
Master Crafted Psycannon
Master Crafted Blade of Phaedron (wounds Daemons on a 2+ and gets +D3 attacks when charging daemons
Icon of the Just
Groimore of True names (halves their WS)
Consecrated Scrolls (use 2 psychic powers a turn once per game)
Digiweapons (S4 hit in combat at +2 In)
Sacred Incense (-1 enemy In)

3 Acolytes with Storm shields and CCW's
3 Combat servitors
4 Familiars
Word of the Emperor (Ld test or charge)
Sanctuary (no daemon in 3")
Destroy Daemon (reroll hits and wounds)
Scourging (D6 S5 hits with no Inv. Saves)

If i got this right and i'm pretty sure i have it was a) a warhammer not 40k thing and B) whist you could argue that a retainer is wargrear he would'nt be an IC any more!!!

Onichi
05-05-2009, 07:19
Again it was a long time ago, but yeah IIRC it was Warhammer Fantasy, since the only other people i remember were fantasy.

slasher
05-05-2009, 08:35
I once accidentally cheated with my lizzies in fantasy.

I thought my EOTG did 2d6 hits instead of 1D6.

Glad I'm not the only one to have done this - although it was pointed out when I'd wipped out a unit of empire knights (we put the unit back and re rolled the amount of hits :o)

Solar_Eclipse
05-05-2009, 08:42
If i got this right and i'm pretty sure i have it was a) a warhammer not 40k thing and B) whist you could argue that a retainer is wargrear he would'nt be an IC any more!!!

Wow, Fantasy? I could have probably made that challenge using a Dwarf lord.

omgitsduane
05-05-2009, 11:23
I know I play terribly and rolling dice and tipping them over to get new results, cheating, adding up freaked-out lists... this all makes me sad.

I am prone to a lot of gamer rage, anyone that knows me personally has a very good idea of just how bad it gets, but warhammer can come down to single dice rolls and just plain luck so I think its irrelevent to cheat in a game I play purely for fun.

But one thing that really gets me is tailoring a list specifically against your army, I had a game on the weekend where the guy I was playing took a super plasma cannon leman russ, 5 plasma cannons and a lascannon against my marines and lets just say I stood no chance. I had obliterators and 7 meltas and failed to get through the tank once on multiple occasions.

Slaughtered by guard, It was terrible but you know these things happen.

/rant

Lamoron
05-05-2009, 11:42
Well, with the new IG codex, pretty much nothing in power armour with vehicles stand a chance. It's quite like the opposite of Orks... IG can remove vehicles and power armour at will. Played four games against various Beakies and spiky beakies, tabled all but one of them... without tailoring a list specificly for it that is...

So Mr. beakie... meet my 4x 3+ cover save chimeras with 3 BS4 plasma gunners in each that can all fire out, and we do have Heavy Flamers on if you should get to close anyway. And that's only around 750 points btw. 40 scoring guys, 4 Tanks with Multi-lasers and heavy flamers, 12 Plasma guns, BS4... it's quite boring, but very bad-ass.

Onichi
05-05-2009, 16:38
Wow, Fantasy? I could have probably made that challenge using a Dwarf lord.


I'm not saying you couldn't have. Especially since I don't recall Dwarves in 3rd edition, but it was one model versus 9 Bloodthirsters. 9 at once. Nothing really to sneeze at.

important things to note:

10 WS
7 Str
6 T
7 W
10 I
7 A

Deamonic (5+ ward save, immune to psychology), Terror, Armour of Khorne (4+), Axe of Khorne (Killing Blow), Frenzy and Magic Resistance (2).

So just a quick check. Is your Dwarf Lord able to negate Killing Blow, Armor and Ward saves, is immune to psychology AND able to bypass a Maxed out Weapon skill? And then able to make 63 Unsaved Wounds before it loses it's own? Remember you can't have multiple gear on the same 'spot'(ex. have the rules from two helms)

In 3rd Ed, Bloodthirsters were not the easiest things to kill. It was a challenge hard enough that the store was willing to put a **** ton of revenue on the line, and not at a huge risk either.