PDA

View Full Version : (Warning: Rant) GW Managers thinking they run the world



CraftworldsRus
22-04-2009, 21:21
(/RANT)

Has anyone else noticed that GW Blackshirts seem to think they have an AWFUL lot of authority over things? For example, in a discussion over a converted model, I stated that I would not play against a certain model, as it was not WYSIWYG and it gave a large(at least six inches) height difference. He told me it was "Legal counts-as" so I didn't have a choice. I argued that any conversions or proxies are done by opponents consent, and he disagreed. I ended up saying that either way, it was my choice to accept or decline a game, and I choose to decline. He still tried to argue that the rules of the GAME, which I had just refused to play, stated that I MUST play.

(see Edit) Another arguement, I ordered and payed in full for my IG codex online, and ordered it with a few other items for my guard. I ordered it shipped to the store. He claims that should my order arrive before "official release day" I can't have MY items that I ALREADY paid for. Is the even legal, and if so, is he allowed to do it as a GW manager? If so, I fully intend to cancel the order.

(/end Rant)

Sorry about that guys, just needed to vent.

EDIT: Seems my second point was not really a point at all, as, upon closer inspection, I did find the fine print. Oh well. I still don't see why he feels the need to hold on to the Steel Legion so he gives me my whole order at once.

isidril93
22-04-2009, 21:25
well for the first one you have a point...for the second...not so much

dal9ll
22-04-2009, 21:27
It sounds like the stuff you ordered is a pre-order.

Anyway I fully agree with you about Blackshirts. All the ones Ive ever met were insufferable knowitalls who think theyre GW's gift to wargaming and they are the end-all be-all of gaming authority. Ive heard such a silly amount of absurd Blackshirt rulings -- some make me laugh at how stupid they are and some make me cry at the state the game has come to -- but either way, you refusing to play is what I would have done. Hell, he cant MAKE you play. Just tell him to shove it.

Opponent's consent > Blackshirt's ruling.

Assuming its not a tournament, hes not involved in the game and therefore has no authority over what happens in the game between players whether it be rulings, house rules, or anything else.

Gutlord Grom
22-04-2009, 21:27
1. What was the model?
2. That's actually been policy for a long time. Sure there are already promotional codeci out, but I'm pretty sure they want to give everyone a chance to get their hands at the same time.

Fred_Scuttle
22-04-2009, 21:28
1st - what a jerk on all the rule items.

2nd - interesting point on the legality of the Codex. If there was *NO* - *NONE* - *NADA* small print *ANYWHERE* in your purchase process about having to wait until the 'street' date to take possession of your book - then no - he can not legally keep it without refunding your money.

He *CAN* refund the portion of your invoice for the codex and give you the rest of the items, or he could refund your entire purchse and keep all the items.

If there *IS* language about GW having the right to retain Codex until 'street' date you are totally at his mercy for the Codex. He would not have the right to retain your other items, but could be a jerk each day and lie saying' nope - it's not here.....hur.......'

Will be interesting to see how he handles it.

Fred

holmcross
22-04-2009, 21:35
For the second case - street dates are street dates. The same thing happens in video game sales.

Souchan
22-04-2009, 21:40
Concerning the 1st part, no one can force you to play if you don't want to, that's silly. Was the model really that bad though? 6" in which direction?

Secondly, not only is he(usually) allowed to withhold the dex, he is actually required to do so by store policy. Many stores have a certain item present before the actual street date, but are unable to release it before such. If they should do so after all and a main branch is alerted to this and cares about enforcing it, they(whoever was responsible for relasing anitem before an official date) could get into trouble.

I guess I'm fortunate we got ourselves a black shirt with a great sense of humour and the appropiate amount of sincerity/discipline required from a managing position. heck with all the stories I hear of GW staff, I am happy for the entire lot we got at my local one :)

Marshal Sinclair
22-04-2009, 21:44
Many managers are complete tools. At GW Stoke the new manager seems to be trying to drive away all the vets who have been playing in GW Stoke for longer than he's been in the hobby. My favourite saying of his is "we're GW and we will do whatever we want with the background". Like he has anything to do with it.

Crovax20
22-04-2009, 21:44
When you order it online it actually states the release date. So on the second point you don't have much to go on. I think you actually have to select somewhere if you want it to be shipped when the whole package is complete or when each item becomes available. So if the codex is coming out on <month> 4th for example and you said you want only one package shipped the rest won't be in till <month> 4th either

CraftworldsRus
22-04-2009, 21:45
The six inches were straight up, the model didn't have legal weapons, and was on a base bigger then a Land Raider. The main issue I really had with the model was the untold amounts of hassle it would cause. I mean, dealing with embarking and disembarking alone would have been a nightmare. That said, it WAS grand conversion work, and I feel I praised the person who made appropriately, and explained why I didn't want to face it. THEY were fine with it.

Cane
22-04-2009, 21:46
Sounds like a *********. On the first part from what you've written, he seems like the kind of person no one would like to hang around unless they themselves stand to benefit from it or have weak personalities.

On the second part, he sounds like a douche so there's no way he'd give you your stuff early like a cool manager. From the first experience alone I'd try to refund my purchase and get the products at a discount from an online retailer.

VerifiablySane
22-04-2009, 22:05
Interesting - over a hundred men (and women) can be judged upon the limited experiences with a few of them?

Some of my best hobby moments have come at the hands of 'blackshirts' (although some came when managers were 'red shirts'). I don't defend the actions of the guy in the first instance (taking himself a little too seriously), but lets keep perspective here: most people who go into a GW have little- to no experience of retail management and the standards and expectations upon said managers. Everything comes from the egocentric view of, 'this is the way I think it should be' or 'I feel inconvenienced because everything doesn't suit me', rather than viewing the actions in a wider context.

The fact is that most managers are somewhat underpaid, with high expectations placed upon them, and have to accommodate a WIDE range of people (age, experience, interest, skill, etc). It's not the fault of any hobbyist that this is the case, and we do pay their wages (indirectly), but seriously - most of the blackshirts I've met (a lot) seem to be guys (when you actually talk to them without making demands all the time) who are passionate about the hobby, and very few are "insufferable" or "know-it-all" compared to many other wargamers I've had the displeasure of (sometimes short) games with or simply been around.

Rant over. I like my local blackshirt. If he tries to leave, I might kidnap him and build a basement to keep him in.

BTW, I do understand that much of what was on here was very reasonable in it's tone.

O&G'sRule
22-04-2009, 22:10
Personally I agree with the manager on both points. Its a game for god sake, the model not being perfect to what you expect is just silly and pathetic imo. In the case of the preorder he's absolutely right, you can order and pay for many things in advance online, doesn't mean you get them any quicker, anyone allowing you to have it early could be breaking trading laws as other companies are adhering to the release date, so would go down as unfair advantage

MrMojoZ
22-04-2009, 22:13
Interesting - over a hundred men (and women) can be judged upon the limited experiences with a few of them?


Judged via second hand info as well. You may be telling us everything CraftworldRus, but I'm not going to hold anything against this manager without knowing both sides of the story.

Awilla the Hun
22-04-2009, 22:13
I do seem to play warhammer in a sheltered place. There are few PGers, few cheats (and when there are, they are accidental), a few "legendary" army builds-but not too many (apart from our Eldar player's giant seer council, and a brace of Tzeentchian Daemon Armies-I have yet to see any Nob Biker Mobz), no abusive staff, and so on.

Sleazy
22-04-2009, 22:14
He's being a dick. I pre-ordered the marine codex, it came in on the thursday and I collected it on the thursday. S'pose the difference being my local GW manager isnt on a power trip.

evilsponge
22-04-2009, 22:17
Second point: you don't have a leg to stand on. Video game stores do the same thing with pre-orders. If you don't like it you're entitled to a refund. If an employee is giving you an item before the store is supposed to be disturbing it, he's being a really nice fellow putting his job on the line for you.

boogle
22-04-2009, 22:25
can you place an order via the online store at home and chose to have it sent to the store? If so, then the staff would have no knowledge of the contents, ergo you could get your stuff early and via the store and this point would be a moot one.

However i'll advise you to order online with a discount retailler, not only will you get it cheaper, but in most cases you'll get it 1-2 days in advance (earlier if you're lucky)

Chaos and Evil
22-04-2009, 22:29
You could have had it sent to your home and opened it early after all.

Vassakov
22-04-2009, 22:36
OK, whilst the first case is probably him being a bit of a pain in the ****, I'm going to echo the points made about the 2nd point - whilst the manager can, if he so wishes, choose to distribute items - particularly pre orders - before the offical release date, they can. I have no idea what the offical policy of GW is, but the release date is the release date. If you don't like it, I'm afraid that's tough. If he's sticking to the release date, then that sucks a bit but to slag him off for it? You're probably out of line there.

I actually work for an Indie store, and GW consistantly sends us stuff early - usually the Wednesday before the release (though VC came a week late, and something (may have been Apocalypse) came over a week early.) As a Indie store, we are under no contractual obliegment to hold the goods until Saturday - we can sell it, give it away, make a bonfire from it... whatever. He however may well be under orders to hold everything until the Saturday - in which case the pre order only means you get it on the day, nothing more.

Aurellis
22-04-2009, 22:41
Can't you change the delivery address at this point in time? That would be a simple answer to this problem...

Hicks
22-04-2009, 22:48
He's keeping your Steel Legion away from you?!? This man is a monster (no sarcasm).

O&G'sRule
22-04-2009, 22:52
can you place an order via the online store at home and chose to have it sent to the store? If so, then the staff would have no knowledge of the contents, ergo you could get your stuff early and via the store and this point would be a moot one.

However i'll advise you to order online with a discount retailler, not only will you get it cheaper, but in most cases you'll get it 1-2 days in advance (earlier if you're lucky)

The preorder stuff like new army books generally get alot of orders, so they come in bulk together, so the staff would know what it is

boogle
22-04-2009, 22:56
The preorder stuff like new army books generally get alot of orders, so they come in bulk together, so the staff would know what it is

However, as the box they come in is sealed, with the invoice on the inside, as they have no knowledge of exactly what was in the box, they couldn't withold it from you

O&G'sRule
22-04-2009, 23:05
However, as the box they come in is sealed, with the invoice on the inside, as they have no knowledge of exactly what was in the box, they couldn't withold it from you

Not sure how that works with the "unfair advantage" rules, I suspect the envelopes the books come in have something with them on preorders, I know they knew what mine was, and it was still sealed

boogle
22-04-2009, 23:10
But what if you were ordering IG stuff and some stuff for WFB? How could they tell if you had pre-order and normal stuff?

O&G'sRule
22-04-2009, 23:12
I'm sure it would separated at HQ

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 00:10
Many managers are complete tools. At GW Stoke the new manager seems to be trying to drive away all the vets who have been playing in GW Stoke for longer than he's been in the hobby. My favourite saying of his is "we're GW and we will do whatever we want with the background". Like he has anything to do with it.

As someone who goes to GW Stoke I don't think John is actually that bad. He can be an ass but so can I :p

On your first point I think he was a bit out of line, your choices are either suck it up if you want to carry on playing there or you can tell him that you DO have a choice in the matter and refuse to play your opponent.

Whether or not your opponent's model was appropriate or not you DO have the right not to play your opponent.

samiens
23-04-2009, 01:23
To be honest I haven't read the small pint so have no idea whether they have legally reserved the right to withold it from you. I am a lawyer so if you're not sure feel free to PM me thesmall print and I'll give you a better answer. Anyway, assuming that the small print is in place there's not a lot you can do.

as for the first point, however, he's totally in the wrong- you have the right to refuse to play no matter the circumstances!

JustTony
23-04-2009, 01:35
Stuff like this is why I'm glad the best FLGS in the Southeastern United States is 15 minutes away from my house and there is NO GW store within 500 miles. Check out Pet Shop Comics. Over 9000 square feet of gaming goodness.

gunmnky
23-04-2009, 03:49
I've had more issues with redshirts. This is probably why they have a high turn over. Few of them seem to know the rules, and the new players ALWAYS ask them before looking it up in the codex. Point in fact: a dreadnought was immobilized. A random player said "it can still shoot behind it, haven't you played dawn of war?" (After I said my tactical squad with 5 missile launchers was on back order, he shut up). So an employee was asked while I was looking up the exact rules on immobilized walkers. Employee said 180 degree arc and was absolutely adamant about it. He kept saying it could hit anything in front of it. I held up the book and pointed to the diagram of the 90 degree arc in it...

So, yeah.

Vaktathi
23-04-2009, 04:06
I try to avoid GW stores. The employee's tend to try and involve themselves in people's games far more than they need to (no, we don't need a WYSIWYG judge for a friendly pickup game with a friend, or to come start telling us how we are supposed to deploy, or that our models aren't painted, etc) and are as bad as used car salesmen when it comes to pushing product, and the Managers seem to be the most hardcore of the bunch, at least from what I've witnessed.

Corpse
23-04-2009, 05:18
I dont try to have problems caused by people who put work into their models. But then again, Im the type of guy who will make it work no matter what. If its a model and represents a different model, I act as if that model is there and tell the guy that any models pushed out of the way are technicly there still we just use the terrain rules for akward terrain and keep mental note of where things are.

Im lenient in many ways, just because I prefer to let people do as they wish as long as they follow the basic rules. Having nice gamers is better then having perfect gamers that are .... (site rules do not permit these words, hehe)

09Project
23-04-2009, 06:08
Why do i get a sensation that this story would be different if both sides were present, just sounds like you making a storm in a tea cup.

Noticed GW Stoke mentioned, that was my local shop for about a year, and I dunno if that the store in question but they were always good to me and I would like to say that while no store is perfect, a long with Edinburgh and York it would rank in my top3 shops.

Pre-orders are at a managers discretion I believe to let out early. Every GW that ever been my local usually had a policy of they would let you have something a couple of days early if the shop was quiet thus then not getting everyone wanting something.

CraftworldsRus
23-04-2009, 07:05
Why do i get a sensation that this story would be different if both sides were present, just sounds like you making a storm in a tea cup.




Oddly enough, looking at it objectively, I really think he would just say that I honestly should have allowed the 8 or 9 inch high land raider with auto cannons. Maybe I should have. I just resent being told who I MUST play in a non tournament.

Vote Kantor
23-04-2009, 07:18
I agree with CraftworldRus on the first point.

My own story is:
There is this one employee (not even sure if he is the manager or not) that must hate my guts for some reason, One time the guy painting next to me had orks with purple warpaint, the employee said that it wasnt right, and i pointed out to the employee that it was his army and he could do what he wanted with it, and even paint the whole thing purple if he wanted, and he /threatened me with being kicked out of the store/ for not showing respect, or being insolent, i forget.

yeah...

genestealer_baldric
23-04-2009, 07:54
initaly our currentmanger who is quite new was very strict and people called him hoby hitler because he was so strict, but now hes settled in he is a realy rather kool manger and is very relaxed which makes the store a nice envrioment.

so it depends on who customers and vets treat them like becuase if you are fair and helpfull with him then they will be with you genrally.

orange mash
23-04-2009, 08:18
the black shirts are mostly k

what realy anoyes me is the litel kids

this one time it was a realy busy saterday and the manager asked me if i chould help a 8 year old kid make his leman russ he said that he would give me as much bits from there masive bits box as posible so i start bilding the tank and i show the kid what to do and he said no u do it and i said no u need to know how to do it you self and he said i will learn next time. so about 3 hours of arguing and asembeling the kids mum comes back and the kid grabs about $900 of stuff and his mum gets it for him but by the end of the day i had a case full of bits (**** head kid):mad::mad::mad:

(sory for spelling and grammer)

maze ironheart
23-04-2009, 08:38
The black shirts at my store are fine they do argue when they think they are right on a rule but most people do that.But when they are proven wrong on a rule when the books checked they admit it I don't think it's the shirt but the person your one was just being a dick for not excepting he was wrong.As for the pre-order stuff they arn't allowed to give you stuff out early thats not even been released it's just how things are done.I ordered a game from a game store it was in the building but I was not allowed it till it's release I just had to except it.

ehlijen
23-04-2009, 08:47
Apology accepted for grammar and spelling; where is the one for lack of punctuation? :p

Back on topic:
No matter how much you dislike certain indivduals, please don't generalise. Ie just because one GW store manager is not your best buddy, doesn't mean they're all bad. Often they end up looking like the bad guy when all they're doing is upholding store policies set by their superiors.

And I have to agree with orange mash: Annoying prats who see themselves entitled to special treatment are much worse. When someone uses the painting table to sit down and read a newspaper while holding a swearword rich conversation about something non-hobby related with another person doing likewise and then does things like demanding store models to be handed to him so he can play a game or demanding the staff room to be made accessible as a storage space for the models he's too lazy too carry I just want to smack him, though of course I don't what with me being a lawabiding non-citizen. (I double checked: as far as my understanding of grammar goes, there aren't any missing punctuation marks in that sentence. Sorry it looks unreadeble anyway.)

IJW
23-04-2009, 08:49
For example, in a discussion over a converted model, I stated that I would not play against a certain model, as it was not WYSIWYG and it gave a large(at least six inches) height difference. He told me it was "Legal counts-as" so I didn't have a choice. I argued that any conversions or proxies are done by opponents consent, and he disagreed.
In that you can always choose not to play, yes. But there's no rules basis for conversions and/or proxies being opponent's permission, which may be what the manager was getting at.

Vaktathi
23-04-2009, 08:54
In that you can always choose not to play, yes. But there's no rules basis for conversions and/or proxies being opponent's permission, which may be what the manager was getting at.
"As mounting your models on different sized bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this"
P.3 of the BRB.

IJW
23-04-2009, 08:58
OK, and if it's on the same size base - or in this case is a vehicle and doesn't need a base in the first place?

EDIT - I've known some GW managers be absolute tools, but the OP seems to be over-reacting. ;)

Dakkagor
23-04-2009, 09:11
(/RANT)

Has anyone else noticed that GW Blackshirts seem to think they have an AWFUL lot of authority over things? For example, in a discussion over a converted model, I stated that I would not play against a certain model, as it was not WYSIWYG and it gave a large(at least six inches) height difference. He told me it was "Legal counts-as" so I didn't have a choice. I argued that any conversions or proxies are done by opponents consent, and he disagreed. I ended up saying that either way, it was my choice to accept or decline a game, and I choose to decline. He still tried to argue that the rules of the GAME, which I had just refused to play, stated that I MUST play.

(/end Rant)

I generally find 6 inches of height equals about 6 inches of extra visibility, and much less stuff to hide behind. TLOS is a bit darwinian like that. I think actually the OP is being a bit petty here. Its a cool converted model, if you don't like it nuke it on your first turn and be done with it. (having used 3 knight titans as proxy defilers, all that extra height means you tend to explode quickly)

Vaktathi
23-04-2009, 09:16
If it's substantially different in terms of height, not simply the diameter of the base or model, then again it would fall under opponents permission as it would draw LoS differently than it was originally designed.

If the OP felt that the model offered an unfair advantage he's totally within the right to not play against it. Now, I don't know what the model was or what it looked like, so I won't make a statement on whether or not the OP was overreacting, but if the model was converted and added 6" of extra height, that could potentially offer a large advantage in terms of avoiding giving up cover saves and the like. Imagine if someone added a 6" tower to a Land Raider and put the lascannons up there, or did the same to a Leman Russ and mounted the battlecannon way high up to shoot over low terrain to negate cover saves.

Without seeing the model, we can't be sure, but it's not hard to see where it *could* be abusive.

Dakkagor
23-04-2009, 09:22
possibly, but such modifications would mean the model in question would not receive cover benefits as often, as from your example the lascannon towered land raider would, on certain types of table, never receive a cover save due to the proportion rule, while a normal land raider might. There was after all a Real life reason tanks have the lowest profile possible, rather than trying to gain height to see over obstacles.

maelstrom66669
23-04-2009, 09:22
Lets not get going about the landraider with the rhino on top of it again, he didnt want to play against it and would by no means have to. That is the point of this thread. Unfortunately we dont have a GW around here so I dont have any stories myself, but both of the local gaming stores owners can be asses at times, so i wouldnt imagine its much different :D.

Dakkagor
23-04-2009, 09:25
You know, I must be lucky or something, as GW bluewater is an ace place with lovely staff. Canterbury wasn't bad either, and neither is lakeside. I don't think I've run into many obnoxious staffers, infact I've probably run into more obnoxious gamers!!

Lovejoy
23-04-2009, 09:25
Having been a Blackshirt in the past, my experience is that managers were generally Ok guys - some were idiots, but you get that with any group of people.

Also, I think we have to cut them a little slack - very few other company's shops are filled with so many gobby, know-it-all customers.

Some Blackshirts are tools, some customers are tools. But overall the hobby's a nice place to be.


As for the pre-release thing, I used to let pre-order stuff go early all the time; nobody had told me not to, so I just assumed it was allright.

Vaktathi
23-04-2009, 09:25
possibly, but such modifications would mean the model in question would not receive cover benefits as often, as from your example the lascannon towered land raider would, on certain types of table, never receive a cover save due to the proportion rule, while a normal land raider might. There was after all a Real life reason tanks have the lowest profile possible, rather than trying to gain height to see over obstacles.

yeah, but in game terms how often is a Land Raider going to get a cover save at all? Almost never. And given it's AV14 status it's less likely to need it.

As long as one player feels anothers conversion is too exploitable, they are well within their rights to refuse to play against it or ask that it be played drawing LoS as per the non converted model. While that can be taken to ridiculous degrees of nitpickyness, so can modelling for advantage.

Gutted
23-04-2009, 09:25
On a slight tangent, I've got the mini-book from Black Reach. Can someone give me the page number for the actual rules for WYSIWYG?

maelstrom66669
23-04-2009, 09:31
Yeah I dont see WYSIWYG in the little book either, but im sure it was in the 4th ed book. Although it wouldnt bother me personally to fight a giant landraider, as I would probably be using meltabombs an it anyway.

Da_Killa
23-04-2009, 09:35
Yeah i agree with orange mash too
i hate nearly all of the little kids (10 and under) at my local GW.games suck with them as well because they try to cheat and its so obvious. on the black shirt issue most mangers are realy cool

Staurikosaurus
23-04-2009, 09:37
If he won't give you your pre-order ahead of time, remind him about the commandment concerning amazing customer service and how no one will get fired for it.

I used that to get people their pre-orders when they came in early when I was a redshirt and it worked every time

IJW
23-04-2009, 09:41
If it's substantially different in terms of height, not simply the diameter of the base or model, then again it would fall under opponents permission as it would draw LoS differently than it was originally designed.
Again, you obviously have the right to refuse to play against it - but there is NO rules basis to your statement about conversions etc. being opponent's permission. Haven't we had this conversation before?


On a slight tangent, I've got the mini-book from Black Reach. Can someone give me the page number for the actual rules for WYSIWYG?
It's in each of the codices, at the start of the army list section, usually entitled 'Using the Army List'. WYSIWYG isn't in the rulebook.

Gutted
23-04-2009, 09:44
It's in each of the codices, at the start of the army list section, usually entitled 'Using the Army List'. WYSIWYG isn't in the rulebook.

Ah ok, that would explain why I never found it.

Grindgodgrind
23-04-2009, 10:29
The blackshirts I've met (Swansea, Portsmouth, Bromley), have all been pretty cool guys, never had any problems with them...

Mangobreeder
23-04-2009, 11:14
what alot of stores to, in order to make them selves look like they are doing loads of pre orders is:

when teh stock arrives early, you make a pre order, and get the codex right away, then when your preorder comes in they replace their stock with your copy, that way everyone is happy.

ill be gettnig my codex from GW ******k tonight :)

Sceleris82
23-04-2009, 11:25
To be honest, i feel the manager is the "cool" one in this case.

First point: Its a game made to have fun, and i doubt the game was a part of a GW tournament, the fact you declined to play him with a conversion he put tons of work in, really tells alot about you as a human.


Second point: Of course he cant give it to ya, cause if he gives it to you early, he has to give it to anyone who asks about getting it early. He made a good choice to sticking to the rules, cause then he is a part of treating everyone farily.

What you say about others, says more about you.

Baragash
23-04-2009, 11:50
First point: Its a game made to have fun, and i doubt the game was a part of a GW tournament, the fact you declined to play him with a conversion he put tons of work in, really tells alot about you as a human.

"Fun" is subjective, just because you define it one way, doesn't mean the OP defines it the same way.

Sholto
23-04-2009, 11:51
I'm with the manager on this one. Sounds like he was trying to overcome the OP's largely unfounded objections to playing against an interesting and well-made conversion. I think the OP has over-reacted.
I generally find 6 inches of height equals about 6 inches of extra visibility, and much less stuff to hide behind. TLOS is a bit darwinian like that. I think actually the OP is being a bit petty here. Its a cool converted model, if you don't like it nuke it on your first turn and be done with it. (having used 3 knight titans as proxy defilers, all that extra height means you tend to explode quickly) QFT.

Sholto

boogle
23-04-2009, 12:07
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=1&aId=9300010&start=2 GW's Customer service terms, can someone with a legal background pick through this and give us a definitive answer to question 2?, furthermore this is their Advanced Orders spiel: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=9300010&start=5

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 12:16
With regards to getting the codex early. The entry under the IG codex on the GW Website clearly states at the bottom


Availability: This product is available for pre-order and will be released on the 2nd of May.

However as boogle shows in the link to the GW Advanced orders gumpf



you will receive your goods by the day of release


so it probably does create an interesting legal question. It clearly states "BY" the day of release rather than "ON" the day of release so there is the potential that it did arrive earlier that you are perfectly legally entitled to the goods. If you are dead set on increasing the chances of getting it earlier then change the delivery to your home address or speak to the citizens advise bureau about your legal rights.

With regards to opinions on BlackShirts, same as most people you meet. I have met some real tools and some nice guys. My local GW has a new manager who seems like a nice guy. The old manager was a ......err....character shall we say.

electricwolf
23-04-2009, 12:25
I have never met a "black shirt" that i didn't like, in fact one "black short" turned into a friend of mine.

The two managers of the battle bunkers in the Toronto area(Toronto and oakville) are great guys and i have never had a problem with them or their staff.

Pg2 of the rulebook states: "winning at any cost is less important than making sure boht players, not just the victor have a good time"

if his model (im assuming that you don't have pictures) would make the game not fun for you to play that is entirely your choice and everyone including the manager has to accept that. If it was one model in your opponents army, couldn't he simply have replaced it with something else?

Also keep in mind that the rules do state that the models have to be on the bases that they were supplied with. Pg 3 does state that if you are going to mount your models on something different than what GW supplies you must get your opponents permission. Clearly in this case you were not going to give permission so he can't use that model.

You do have the option of contacting the regional manager and talking to him about the way the manager was acting.

As for not giving you your shipment before it's official release well sorry but you decided to have it shipped to the store so it's their choice to give it to you or not before the release date. Yes it may have saved you shipping but it means that you don't get it before the official release.

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 12:35
With regards to getting the codex early. The entry under the IG codex on the GW Website clearly states at the bottom

However as boogle shows in the link to the GW Advanced orders gumpf



so it probably does create an interesting legal question. It clearly states "BY" the day of release rather than "ON" the day of release so there is the potential that it did arrive earlier that you are perfectly legally entitled to the goods. If you are dead set on increasing the chances of getting it earlier then change the delivery to your home address or speak to the citizens advise bureau about your legal rights.

With regards to opinions on BlackShirts, same as most people you meet. I have met some real tools and some nice guys. My local GW has a new manager who seems like a nice guy. The old manager was a ......err....character shall we say.

Don't be silly, this not a legal issue and even if it was the release date is clearly stated.

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 12:52
Don't be silly, this not a legal issue and even if it was the release date is clearly stated.

Two things,

1st I don't appreciate your tone.
2nd Of course it is a legal issue quite clearly under the sales of goods act 1979.

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 13:01
What's that got to do with anything? if they tell you that they release date of an item is x and you pay up for it, you can't expect to get it when the shop do. Like a gentleman posted before, video games, records, books, dvd's etc due out for release on the friday or monday get delivered to a shop up to a week before. Would you expect to be able to walk into gamestation three days before FFXIII comes out damanding you get it since you've pre-ordered and paid for it whilst quoting Acts?

oh, and by the way, speaking of quoting acts....


PART II FORMATION OF THE CONTRACT

2. Contract of sale



(1) A contract of sale of goods is a contract by which the seller transfers or agrees to transfer the property in goods to the buyer for a money consideration, called the price.

(2) There may a contract of sale between one part owner and another.

(3) A contract of sale may be absolute or conditional.

(4) Where under a contract of sale the property in the goods is transferred from the seller to the buyer the contact is called a sale.

(5) Where under a contract of sale the transfer of the property in the goods is to take place at a future time or subject to some condition later to be fulfilled the contract is called an agreement to sell.

(6) An agreement to sell becomes a sale when the time elapses or the conditions are fulfilled subject to which the property in the goods is to be transferred.

bora
23-04-2009, 13:14
I've had more issues with redshirts. This is probably why they have a high turn over. Few of them seem to know the rules, and the new players ALWAYS ask them before looking it up in the codex. Point in fact: a dreadnought was immobilized. A random player said "it can still shoot behind it, haven't you played dawn of war?" (After I said my tactical squad with 5 missile launchers was on back order, he shut up). So an employee was asked while I was looking up the exact rules on immobilized walkers. Employee said 180 degree arc and was absolutely adamant about it. He kept saying it could hit anything in front of it. I held up the book and pointed to the diagram of the 90 degree arc in it...

So, yeah.

While I cannot join the discussion about black shirts (mine are nice guys), I would like to understand the quoted part.

From what I read and how I see people playing it, an immobilized walker can still turn its torso in shooting phase, which means it could fire behind itself as well. The BRB says so on p72. After pivoting the weapons have a 45 degree firing arc.

So I wonder which page has a 90 degree diagram? Was it a previous edition? I started with 5th ed, so I really do not know. Please enlighten me :)

N1AK
23-04-2009, 13:22
the fact you declined to play him with a conversion he put tons of work in, really tells alot about you as a human.


You've read what a few paragraphs by a guy you haven't met. You weren't there for the incident, don't know what was said by whom and in what way. You don't know the opponent, haven't seen the conversion and aren't aware whether the conversion is abusable... but even with all those things you don't know, you think you know a lot about him and can make a judgement on his character?

I think that one sentence told people a lot more about you as a human than you could possibly know about him.

Captain Micha
23-04-2009, 13:31
Are there pics of this "offensive model"?

If no, then how are we supposed to be judging whether or not a guy was trying to get an "unfair" advantage with the model?

Gutted
23-04-2009, 13:43
"Fun" is subjective, just because you define it one way, doesn't mean the OP defines it the same way.

True, but while fun is subjective outside a competitive event it isn't unreasonable to expect a bit of give and take so that both players can have fun. Cooperation and compromise and all that. Even a "I will you play you this time, but not not next time if you use that model" is better than "no, I don't like it, I wont play you".

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 13:46
What's that got to do with anything? if they tell you that they release date of an item is x and you pay up for it, you can't expect to get it when the shop do. Like a gentleman posted before, video games, records, books, dvd's etc due out for release on the friday or monday get delivered to a shop up to a week before. Would you expect to be able to walk into gamestation three days before FFXIII comes out damanding you get it since you've pre-ordered and paid for it whilst quoting Acts?

oh, and by the way, speaking of quoting acts....

Once again I am finding your tone quite confrontational. I would ask that you don't call me "Silly". I am by no means an expert and as such have never tried to imply that I am absolutely right. This is merely my opinion based on my current understanding of consumer law.

To clarify, as far as I understand it, any sale of goods are covered under the Sales of Goods Act 1979 which is the reason why I said that it is clearly a legal issue under this act. In hindsight maybe saying "clearly" was a poor choice of words, I should probably rephrase as "possibly an issue under this act". As posted by Samiens


To be honest I haven't read the small pint so have no idea whether they have legally reserved the right to withold it from you. I am a lawyer so if you're not sure feel free to PM me thesmall print and I'll give you a better answer. Anyway, assuming that the small print is in place there's not a lot you can do.

My opinion would be that goods have been paid for and GW's policy states that goods ordered online will be delivered "By" the date of release.

I see your point about advanced ordering of DVD's, Games etc. My opinion is I believe this constitutes a different contract of sale as in that case the order is made in store with the delivery condition being that the transfer of property game/dvd etc is to happen on the date stated thus forming the contract of sale conditions. In this case the order has been made online and is subject to a contract of sale with the conditions stated for online purchase. The delivery address as far as I understand has no legal bearing in the ability of the manager to withhold release of goods once delivery has been completed and as such the manager would not be entitled to withhold the release of goods once they have been delivered to the store as the goods are subject to the contract of sale using the online terms and conditions. As I said, I am not a legal expert so this entire paragraph maybe incorrect but it is my interpretation of what should happen.

tristessa
23-04-2009, 13:54
along with Edinburgh and York it would rank in my top3 shops.


I played the York manager at the 40k GT last november. Seemed a top guy. Had a good chat with him about the hobby and everything. Hope he's still there doing well.

tristessa
23-04-2009, 14:08
What's that got to do with anything? if they tell you that they release date of an item is x and you pay up for it, you can't expect to get it when the shop do. Like a gentleman posted before, video games, records, books, dvd's etc due out for release on the friday or monday get delivered to a shop up to a week before. Would you expect to be able to walk into gamestation three days before FFXIII comes out damanding you get it since you've pre-ordered and paid for it whilst quoting Acts?


Few points having worked in both music/media retail for a good few years in the past, and GW in the last year.

1: Videogames, DVD's, Records, Harry Potter Books etc are all protected releases. I.E if you sell them early to get a headstart on the competition you'll get a fine. It's all in with the distribution contracts that are signed between all parties. Interestingly though, once one party breaks the contract and hits the fine, all other shops can start selling. These are protected partially for a few reasons, sales & piracy being the main two. This is why if you go in to gamestation and ask for FFXIII or whatever, you won't get it, even if they have your money. However, if you order it from Amazon and the post is super quick and you get it, that's fine. Amazon is realistically trying to meet its delivery targets and can post in time to hit this.

2: The only GW product that is a protected release as far as I know is white dwarf. This is due to places like WHSmith stocking it and there being agreed dates. If GW sells white dwarf early then they could get in to trouble regarding the supply contracts that have with newsagents and the like. Subscribers obviously get it early (this will be part of the contract).

3: Codexes, models and everything else GW stocks can be sold at the managers whim. Can't make it in on saturday? I've got a copy you can have now. Want it before your friends so you can leak it online? Tough. Etc Etc Etc.

If you order it in advance and it gets sent to GW in a parcel, you can reasonably expect to get that parcel when it arrives in store. However, if you annoyed the manager, he doesn't have to declare he's received it until release day. You can't request the shipping manifest, and instead you can chase with GW mail order and let them sort it out.

What we'd do in Exeter was sell pretty much anything early, but only if there were good reasons. It didn't do our launch day events & sales much good if we sold stock before the event, but the odd codex to people on the thursday before if they couldn't get in was fine.

In short, it's up to the manager. Your only legal right is to have the goods to you on or before the day of the release and that's just the way it is. There is no obligation to get them to you beforehand that I'm aware of. However, there is no legal objection either! So as above, it's managers discretion and if you upset him, well...

Captain Micha
23-04-2009, 14:13
Why did the OP ship it to the store and not his place? I never ship to anywhere but my home if I can help it. (unless I need a Loading Dock)

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 14:20
Either way, you enter into a contract when you pre-order and buy a release. If it's there in the shop, the manager is within his legal rights to say no to you if you ask for it since the contract states that you're waiting for it's release.

As I quoted in the largely ignored section of my post, the aformentioned Sales Of Goods Act 1979 (Rev 2003).

Foolish Mortal
23-04-2009, 14:31
Why did the OP ship it to the store and not his place? I never ship to anywhere but my home if I can help it. (unless I need a Loading Dock)

Maybe it's more convenient for him to collect it there?

Speaking from personal experience, I get anything I order online sent to my work address because our house is empty during the day, so no-one available to accept delivery, and our postmen tend to like to leave things on the doorstep, increasing the risk of theft or damage.

taffeh
23-04-2009, 14:37
The blackshirts I've met (Swansea, Portsmouth, Bromley), have all been pretty cool guys, never had any problems with them...



I second this about the current Blackshirt in Swansea...

Encourages us vets to get involved with everything, and many activities surrounding the hobby I have had since getting back into it have been great cause of such people.

For this reason I count Swansea as my home store although I currently work / live in Reading.

Reading old / new ones seem quite cool, and so does the Blackshirt of Manchester Arndale but dont know these on the level of the 1 at Swansea.

*salute*

Not a GW fanboy, however I give respect where it is due. Additional: Whats this: a good comment on warseer? :P

Frontier
23-04-2009, 14:39
Interesting - over a hundred men (and women) can be judged upon the limited experiences with a few of them?


GW employees, like the Space Marines, and special characters; can do nothing right by most people on Warseer.

Vaktathi
23-04-2009, 14:55
Again, you obviously have the right to refuse to play against it - but there is NO rules basis to your statement about conversions etc. being opponent's permission. Haven't we had this conversation before? Um, except that it explicitely states as much on page 3 of the rulebook? The message they are trying to get across is that if something is substantially different in terms of dimensions from the original model, you should clear it with your opponent.

IJW
23-04-2009, 15:09
Page 3 explicitly talks about bases, and how changing them might affect the game.

There's no generic 'converted models require opponent's permission' clause anywhere, and I'd be horrified if there was, considering how big a part of the hobby conversions are.

gitburna
23-04-2009, 15:11
Many managers are complete tools. At GW Stoke the new manager seems to be trying to drive away all the vets who have been playing in GW Stoke for longer than he's been in the hobby. My favourite saying of his is "we're GW and we will do whatever we want with the background". Like he has anything to do with it.

The staff there are great, not all too sure about the manager though. I've known Iyan (sp?) and Joe for a long time and they're really helpful but there's been a succession of managers there since the place opened in the early 90s and i've only had a rapport with a couple of them.

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 15:14
Either way, you enter into a contract when you pre-order and buy a release. If it's there in the shop, the manager is within his legal rights to say no to you if you ask for it since the contract states that you're waiting for it's release.

As I quoted in the largely ignored section of my post, the aformentioned Sales Of Goods Act 1979 (Rev 2003).

I did read the excerpt from the SoG Act but I am not sure which point can be used to give legal validity for a shop manager to fail to release the goods. Having ordered items online and had them delivered to my local GW if I recall correctly I believe the packaging on the order came through with my name as the recipient rather than the shopname therefore I believe I would be the legal owner of those goods as soon as they are delivered and the store would have no legal right to retain them until a release date. If this is indeed the case then I believe the key difference between this and a preorder made at a store to collect in store is that the package is sent with my name on it rather than I am allocated an item from a generic store delivery.

I have to admit at this point that I am curious enough to know what my rights as a consumer are to speak to consumer direct about it. I might see if they have an e-mail address. I might well be wrong but I am sure that if my name is on the packaging I am the legal owner of the goods.

IJW
23-04-2009, 15:20
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't count as being delivered until the store hand them over to the customer. The store in this case is acting like a depot or similar, so as long as the store have the goods the goods are still in the supply chain.

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 15:35
Well spoke to consumer direct (I do love it when something piques my curiosity :) ). It seems that they would be only bound by their terms and conditions of delivery as to whether they would release the delivery.

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 15:38
Well spoke to consumer direct (I do love it when something piques my curiosity :) ). It seems that they would be only bound by their terms and conditions of delivery as to whether they would release the delivery.

Which you agree to abide by when you order.

Interesting point about Cd's and the like a few posts up, concerning the release dates. If you order a game from amazon or somewhere or if you get a Harry Potter book via a book club, you'll end up with it a day or so before. This is to beat the postage to get you your item on release. GW are the same.

d0dgeuk
23-04-2009, 15:44
Which you agree to abide by when you order.

Interesting point about Cd's and the like a few posts up, concerning the release dates. If you order a game from amazon or somewhere or if you get a Harry Potter book via a book club, you'll end up with it a day or so before. This is to beat the postage to get you your item on release. GW are the same.

Fair enough.

Yeah I got my copy of the last World of Warcraft expansion pack about 4 days early from amazon. Of course couldn't play it until the release date which was most frustrating :)

I guess the answer to the OP's original question seems to be if you want to increase your chances of getting it early have it delivered to your home address. If you get it delivered to your store then they might release it to you early but are not obliged too.

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 16:04
I try to avoid GW stores. The employee's tend to try and involve themselves in people's games far more than they need to (no, we don't need a WYSIWYG judge for a friendly pickup game with a friend, or to come start telling us how we are supposed to deploy, or that our models aren't painted, etc) and are as bad as used car salesmen when it comes to pushing product, and the Managers seem to be the most hardcore of the bunch, at least from what I've witnessed.

At GW Stoke the guys are pretty damn good by the sounds of everyone's stories. The staff tend to set you up with a game then wnader off, occasionally coming back to see whats going on, probably out of interest to be honest.


With regards to getting the codex early. The entry under the IG codex on the GW Website clearly states at the bottom

However as boogle shows in the link to the GW Advanced orders gumpf



so it probably does create an interesting legal question. It clearly states "BY" the day of release rather than "ON" the day of release so there is the potential that it did arrive earlier that you are perfectly legally entitled to the goods. If you are dead set on increasing the chances of getting it earlier then change the delivery to your home address or speak to the citizens advise bureau about your legal rights.

With regards to opinions on BlackShirts, same as most people you meet. I have met some real tools and some nice guys. My local GW has a new manager who seems like a nice guy. The old manager was a ......err....character shall we say.

Gamesworkshop's Terms and Conditions:




4.5 The Goods will become yours when you pay for them in full



According to Gamesworkshop.com's own Terms and Conditions the Store Manager is withholding property that belong's to the OP. Therefore if I were the OP I would tell the manager to give me my property or I call the police.

Bet he wont want to call your bluff :p

tristessa
23-04-2009, 16:44
Fair enough.

Yeah I got my copy of the last World of Warcraft expansion pack about 4 days early from amazon. Of course couldn't play it until the release date which was most frustrating :)



Off topic, but I didn't know you played WoW sir. I'll pick this up with you at the next club.

Yeah, best way is to have things sent to your home address. Far better odds of getting something early though you might get something late!

boogle
23-04-2009, 17:32
At GW Stoke the guys are pretty damn good by the sounds of everyone's stories. The staff tend to set you up with a game then wnader off, occasionally coming back to see whats going on, probably out of interest to be honest.



Gamesworkshop's Terms and Conditions:



According to Gamesworkshop.com's own Terms and Conditions the Store Manager is withholding property that belong's to the OP. Therefore if I were the OP I would tell the manager to give me my property or I call the police.

Bet he wont want to call your bluff :p

I would suggest that the OP goes into the store, with his receipt of purchase and they gets the manager to look up his own companies terms and conditions and see what he then says

maelstrom66669
23-04-2009, 18:00
No matter what the policies might say, no store can legally release things before their release date, almost every video and music album in in the back of the store a few days before they sell them, and I guarantee GW has a similar rule, tho he would have had no reason not to give you your other items, and it doesnt make sense that he wouldnt.

MrMojoZ
23-04-2009, 18:05
According to Gamesworkshop.com's own Terms and Conditions the Store Manager is withholding property that belong's to the OP. Therefore if I were the OP I would tell the manager to give me my property or I call the police.

Bet he wont want to call your bluff :p

Which doesn't include pre-ordered items. But lets please get the police involved because the bad man won't give us our toy soldiers. This whole thread is childish.

Bellygrub
23-04-2009, 18:09
Which doesn't include pre-ordered items. But lets please get the police involved because the bad man won't give us our toy soldiers. This whole thread is childish.

Not to mention you could open a law firm with the amount of internet lawyering going on in here.

electricwolf
23-04-2009, 18:09
alot of people on this thread seem to be getting on the legalities of what happened. I'm pretty sure we don't have the whole story here and we are only seeing one side of the story. We also don't know what else was in the order that was made.

Remember they also have the right to refuse service to anyone.

As i said before the OP should go over the managers head to the district manager or even to the head office and talk to someone there.

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 19:23
No matter what the policies might say, no store can legally release things before their release date, almost every video and music album in in the back of the store a few days before they sell them, and I guarantee GW has a similar rule, tho he would have had no reason not to give you your other items, and it doesnt make sense that he wouldnt.

Terms and Conditions are a binding contract that apply to the buyer and the seller when a transaction has occurred. Legally those items belong to him, Gamesworkshop drafted up a contract that said as soon as the customer pays in full for the models they belong to them, and they entered into that contract with the buyer when they accepted (and they do have to accept) the transaction.

Gamesworkshop more then likely have a rule saying they cannot sell items in store before the release date, however this person has already bought the items via the website in accord with the contract gamesworkshop provided them with which states the items belong to him. The Manager has not disobeyed any rule of selling stuff before a release date as the OP bought the models off Gamesworkshop.Com but had them delivered to the store instead of his house.

Next?


Which doesn't include pre-ordered items. But lets please get the police involved because the bad man won't give us our toy soldiers. This whole thread is childish.

Hey looks like the mandatory "Look at me I can act bad ass on the internet" guy has turned up to be rude to everyone!

Yes it DOES apply to pre-order items because it is in the Website's terms and conditions for buying things. If you actually knew what you were on about you'd know that both the seller and the customer are legally bound by those terms and conditions. Hence why the Terms and Conditions say "As soon as you pay for it belongs to you, it's your responsibility and it's no longer our fault if anything goes missing"

Why don't you be quiet now, the point is a person is being an ass and I'm suggesting that the OP use his legal rights to obtain his property. The item in question is irrelevant, whether it was a sports car or half an eaten biscuit, the point is someone is keeping someone else's property and acting quite frankly out of order.

If you're happy to let other people take stuff from you I wont complain, though I would like to know your address.

Bellygrub
23-04-2009, 19:54
Why don't you be quiet now, the point is a person is being an ass and I'm suggesting that the OP use his legal rights to obtain his property. The item in question is irrelevant, whether it was a sports car or half an eaten biscuit, the point is someone is keeping someone else's property and acting quite frankly out of order.

If you're happy to let other people take stuff from you I wont complain, though I would like to know your address.

But no one is "taking his stuff". He's getting it on the release day. Same as everyone else in that store. If the manager was handing out all the other pre orders whilst waving the OP's at him and saying "You can't have yours till release but these people may have theirs!!!" Then he'd having a reason to complain.

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 20:23
But no one is "taking his stuff". He's getting it on the release day. Same as everyone else in that store. If the manager was handing out all the other pre orders whilst waving the OP's at him and saying "You can't have yours till release but these people may have theirs!!!" Then he'd having a reason to complain.

Right, what part of this aren't people getting.

According to GAMES WORKSHOP as soon as you pay for the item it belongs to YOU. Not them, you.

If they do not wish to sell you an item, they do not have to and they don't need to provide a reason as it's at their discretion. However they cannot choose not to give you something they have already said belongs to you.

I might as well order a take away delivery to their store and then the manager decides not to give it to me, it's the same thing.

Last time I checked if something belongs to me, and some one else has received the item (with my name on it no less) and refuses to give it to me they have "my stuff".

Forlorn
23-04-2009, 20:30
Our local blackshirt has absolutely no idea about upcoming releases other than what he officially receives and doesn't seem to be aware of future releases unless he's told by the company. I've found I know more about his company and upcoming product releases than he does. All thanks to Warseer of course.

What I can't stand is the miniature blinders these guys have with regard to acknowledging other miniature companies and models. It's almost laughable.

evilsponge
23-04-2009, 20:34
What I can't stand is the miniature blinders these guys have with regard to acknowledging other miniature companies and models. It's almost laughable.

That's company policy. GW wants to promote the GW hobby, not wargaming in general (would microsoft package firefox with their OS over internet explorer?)

VerifiablySane
23-04-2009, 20:38
3: Codexes, models and everything else GW stocks can be sold at the managers whim. Can't make it in on saturday? I've got a copy you can have now. Want it before your friends so you can leak it online? Tough. Etc Etc
Etc.
...
What we'd do in Exeter was sell pretty much anything early, but only if there were good reasons. It didn't do our launch day events & sales much good if we sold stock before the event, but the odd codex to people on the thursday before if they couldn't get in was fine.

In short, it's up to the manager.

I think that the Trade department may want to argue that point: a GW that releases any product early does so to the disadvantage of any local Trade store. I'm pretty sure that Trade stores don't get to release things early without some penalty.



I try to avoid GW stores. The employee's tend to try and involve themselves in people's games far more than they need to (no, we don't need a WYSIWYG judge for a friendly pickup game with a friend, or to come start telling us how we are supposed to deploy, or that our models aren't painted, etc) and are as bad as used car salesmen when it comes to pushing product, and the Managers seem to be the most hardcore of the bunch, at least from what I've witnessed.

Keep in mind that part of a staff member's responsibility is to those hobbyists
whose confidence in public situations is 'minimal', and who may find themselves (deliberately or inadvertantly) bulllied into accepting whatever their opponent wants to do or use. The OP doesn't necessarily fall into this category, but staff 'interfering' all the time MAY be as much to do with preventing strong personalities always getting their way in every game.

I'm sure many people on here can recount situations where new/inexperienced/nervous gamer is about to get his *ss handed to him by 'loud and pushy gamer-guy' by virtue of unique 'counts-as', obscure rules interpretation, terrain/scenario/set-up being in his favour, etc.; I remember more than one occasion where an 'interfering' staff member ensured that balance was restored...

And as for painting - I'm pretty sure that's one thing that staff CAN have something to say about.

evilsponge
23-04-2009, 20:43
Right, what part of this aren't people getting.

According to GAMES WORKSHOP as soon as you pay for the item it belongs to YOU. Not them, you.

All say this again, no GW store or indie shop is required to give you a pre-ordered item before it's official release date. Thems the breaks.


If they do not wish to sell you an item, they do not have to and they don't need to provide a reason as it's at their discretion. However they cannot choose not to give you something they have already said belongs to you.

I might as well order a take away delivery to their store and then the manager decides not to give it to me, it's the same thing.


No it's not the same thing, not even close. You keep trying to pretend like this item is already released and on store shelves when it's not. If at miniature has a release date of January 5, 2009, and you pre-order it January 4, 2009. They can hold on to it for that ENTIRE day, even if it is sitting under their cashier desk right at that moment. And there is nothing you can do about it other than demand a refund or rant about it on a message board.

VerifiablySane
23-04-2009, 20:43
Our local blackshirt has absolutely no idea about upcoming releases other than what he officially receives and doesn't seem to be aware of future releases unless he's told by the company. I've found I know more about his company and upcoming product releases than he does. All thanks to Warseer of course.

Have you not considered that he might be 'playing dumb'? Company policy prevents him talking about stuff beyond a certain window - if he does, he is actually breaching company trust, and I've known more than one staff member b***ocked because they couldn't keep their mouth shut about things they've been told.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 20:46
Our local blackshirt has absolutely no idea about upcoming releases other than what he officially receives and doesn't seem to be aware of future releases unless he's told by the company. I've found I know more about his company and upcoming product releases than he does. All thanks to Warseer of course.

That is the nature of WarSeer.

parus_ater
23-04-2009, 22:18
All say this again, no GW store or indie shop is required to give you a pre-ordered item before it's official release date. Thems the breaks.



No it's not the same thing, not even close. You keep trying to pretend like this item is already released and on store shelves when it's not. If at miniature has a release date of January 5, 2009, and you pre-order it January 4, 2009. They can hold on to it for that ENTIRE day, even if it is sitting under their cashier desk right at that moment. And there is nothing you can do about it other than demand a refund or rant about it on a message board.

Good luck in trying to convince them mate, I spent all morning and as soon as I did somebody else stepped into the breach