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Col. Tartleton
22-04-2009, 22:36
I've been trying to work out the details for a non codex chapter that takes its PDF with it in larger campaigns [why not?] . I'm just quoting my post on B&C to include some statistics.


Well coming back to this idea I've changed my mind.

The scouts will be normalized to a singular company The blooding will take place before the procurement of geneseed. The surviving hundred will be implanted and armored as scouts. However there will be large detachments of storm trooper equivalent serfs attached to the chapter. They'll wear chapter colors and carry hellguns and deploy with Valkyries, Vultures, and Vendettas. For proper force interaction this means that the chapter will be focused on air supremacy and combined arms.

Marines by their nature as being non affiliated with the Imperium to a degree means that legally they can outfit a PDF.

From this, said PDF can be used offensively as a Quasi Imperial Guard under their own direction. The Ultramarines to an extent practice this with the Ultramar PDF, so in that respect this will not be a new concept.

This will lead to an extensive naval force for the transporting of their PDF. Local PDFs are allowed ships (without warp capabilities) although Imperial Guardsmen are not. As the Space Marines have their own fleet and ground forces with some loose interpreting (and some bartering for requisitions as rewards for saving forgeworlds) the marines could garner their own highly trained private navy.

A dozen Dictator class cruisers, a pair of Mars Battle Cruisers, and an Emperor Class Battleship could provide the type of assistance that the force would need.

This would form a significant battle fleet in addition to the three Battle Barges, half dozen strike cruisers and numerous escorts.

Mobilized that would give the following estimate for troop strength.

------------------------------------------------------
PLANETARY DEFENSE FORCE NAVAL DISPOSITION:

--1x Emperor Class Battleship:
--2x Mars Class Battle Cruiser:
-12x Dictator Class Cruiser:
--?x Troop Transport Escorts:
--?x Fury Interceptors (Ship to Ship Fighter Craft)
--?x Starhawk Bombers (Ship to Ship Bombers)
--?x Valkyries/Vendettas/Vultures (Infantry Transports/Close Support)
--?x Marauder Bombers (Dedicated Surface Bombers)
--?x Thunderbolts (Dedicated Surface Fighter Craft)

60 Ten Thousand Man Carapace Regiments [Twelve Brigades: Six Divisions: Two Corps: 1 Army]
------------------------------------------------------
SPACE MARINE NAVAL ASSETS DISPOSITION:

--3x Battle Barges:
--6x Striker Cruisers:
--2x Forge Ships:
-24x Gladius Class Frigates:
--?x Thunderhawk Gunships
--?X Thunderhawk Transporters

Containing (Approx):

300 Tactical Marines- Battle Barge
300 Tactical Marines- Battle Barge
300 Tactical Marines- Battle Barge
100 Tactical Marines- Strike Cruiser
100 Ranger (Scout)- Strike Cruiser
100 Commando (Assault)- Strike Cruiser
100 Support (Devastator)- Strike Cruiser
100 Armor (Dedicated Armor)- Strike Cruiser
100 Household (Ass. Veterans)- Strike Cruiser
40 Techmarines- Forge Ship
40 Techmarines- Forge Ship

I made the decision that 600k infantry plus support and over a thousand marines would be a great dedicated task force for protecting a pretty large area of space. Its nowhere near crusade status of course, but it would have the ability to be sustainable thanks to the borderline hive world they are drawn from.

Kurisu313
22-04-2009, 22:53
Well, counting tactical, assault, devastator and veterans, you're about 400 marines over the supposed chapter size.

Also, 3 battle barges is a lot. Even the ultramarines 'only' have three.

It's hard to comment on the PDF element. 600 thousand men sounds like a lot, but it's probably fine.

FarseerMatt
22-04-2009, 23:25
I'd say 600,000 men, if anything, wasn't enough. The USA alone boasts over a million soldiers - imagine what a planet (even a relatively unmilitarised one) could produce.

Col. Tartleton
22-04-2009, 23:32
Well the additional companies are about the entirety of the non codex nature of the chapter. Its all about their interpretations and what not. They take the 1000 to be ten battle companies and stick on support companies as extra.

3BB is a lot, that was my primary concern, but i think if I dropped one id need three more strike cruisers and that's just as bad IMO.

I also have to develop some more in depth fluff for them once i work out their organization. I have no name, or history, or anything just working on a brain melting organization. It should be very in depth once I work it all out.

Well these are just attached troops directly on the chapter fleet (ie next to none). The planet has roughly another billion men in its standing and reserve PDF. May drop another zero on that figure for fun.

Brother Siccarius
22-04-2009, 23:42
I've been trying to work out the details for a non codex chapter that takes its PDF with it in larger campaigns [why not?] . I'm just quoting my post on B&C to include some statistics.


Wasn't there a rule stopping Space Marines from commanding Munitorium armies after the heresy?

Col. Tartleton
22-04-2009, 23:54
"Chapter Serfs" and "Chapter Fleet" :)

In the Forty First Millennium there is only war. War and liberal readings of field guides and the laws of war. Foremost and most ignorant of this "Guilleman" character are the noble Space Marines.

Dakkagor
23-04-2009, 00:03
Wasn't there a rule stopping Space Marines from commanding Munitorium armies after the heresy?

So, this is a space marine chapter with control over a sizeable fleet of navy assets and 600,0000 fighting men, with 400 combatant astartes over the codex? This is a chapter that breaks pretty much the most important rule of the Codex Astartes, the one you're not allowed to ignore, twist, or interpret your way around. Control over that many fighting men would alert the inquisition almost immediatly and the Ordo Hereticus would have your chapter excommunicated as soon as possible. The Ultramar PDF is exactly that, a PDF, and doesn't leave the Ultramar systems unless inducted into the guard, at which point the ultramarines relinquish all control of them.

If your chapter is renegade, or isolated from the imperium by a warpstorm or alien invasion or what have you, then fine. But if you pull this on a campaign the Inquisition will use every means at its disposal to annihilate you.

Condottiere
23-04-2009, 00:03
Wasn't there a rule stopping Space Marines from commanding Munitorium armies after the heresy?Maybe it was interpreted as advice?

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 00:19
They aren't going to be Ultramarine descendants, they probably don't care about his reforms. Their internal structure is pretty different as well. Not quite Black Templar unique, but on par with space wolves. For an example battle companies are entirely composed of air-deployed mechanized tactical squads. Also the first company isn't a real company but a group of veteran units attached to different commands (Chapter Master, Master of Sanctity, Chief Librarian, Master of Veterans, etc.) none of whom use TDA as its not in their doctrine of flexible quick deploying forces. There are also seperate "Masters" and Captains.

Overall they're pretty non codex and a bit more formally military then most marine chapters who are monastic and all that.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 00:28
The PDF cruiser count is imo too big. The average Sector fleet is supposed to be ~70 ships of the line, you've got pretty much a 1/6th of a sector in the control of a single world.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
23-04-2009, 00:30
The astartes did not command normal troops after the heresy for two very big reasons.

1. To prevent another Horus Heresy. The marines are the tip of the spear, they cannot hold planets, but give them a couple million soldiers to back them up and they become extremely dangerous.

2. Astartes pushed the regular soldiers too hard, in most cases unintentionally, since they were just normal men.

Even chapters like the Space Wolves and Black Templars recognize the seperation of branches and do not have attachted Guard anymore. The Imperium would never tolerate your chapter's practices.

Also the 1000 is not the main battle companies but the reserve and scout companies. The codex astartes is not that vauge. also Gulleiman is not an idoit. He is a gene-enhanced warlord and general who conqured hundreds of worlds, he's not going to just list a bunch of random crap and say, ''This
is it, all else is worthless'', no the codex astartes would be like ''The Art of war x10, on crack''

And why not have the Guard fighting alongside the marines? They do not have to be under marine command, simply say that your chapter decided drop in and fight alongside the Guard.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 00:40
The space wolves are even more bizarre because their planet pretty much has no PDF to speak of. Only feral natives that bite your legs off.

The Fang is the only thing that defends the planet. Of course, very few people would WANT to conquer the planet, so its own inherent uselessness is also a defence.

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 01:08
But mommy staying within the limits of the written fluff is silly! :cries:

In my opinion seventy ships in a sector fleet is underpowered. Seventy ships may be able to hold a sub sector. I think the ships thing is pretty moot. The chapter is going to be notorious for claiming ships after battles. Its only like twice the normal size for a space marine fleet. The amount of troops, ships, and marines total is hardly enough to take out any real coalition of Imperial Troops. Six hundred thousand troops wouldn't be enough to take out a country the size of Vietnam. Six million troops wouldn't be enough to subjugate mainland Europe. Perhaps they could overwhelm a hive or two, perhaps not. Given Marine support they would be able to independently take a earth populated world. With the size of the fleet they could spread out and fight four or more wars at once (which most chapters can do AFAIK).

They can be trusted, they're Raven Guard descendants I've decided. Currently no nasty lineages or mutations, they're just pale and grim.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 01:13
Sorry, I forgot you were dealing with a different interpretation of 40k (as seen in your fiction). In that case, it's fine. So is the oversized chapter for that matter. With your interpretation of 40k so long as it's internally consistent then there's no problems.

Hellebore

MajorWesJanson
23-04-2009, 01:20
My recommendations
PDF Navy: Drop about half of those cruisers and add some light cruisers and destroyer flotillas instead. I can't see the Navy being happy that you have a Battleship and Battlecruisers, so it may be best to have an actual Naval squadron assigned to the planet. Thus the balance of power is officially kept, but unofficially the squadron could be at the disposal of the PDF.

Space Marine Fleet: With that many ships, it looks like you have a fleet based chapter. I'd personally drop a battle barge and a strike cruiser or two and replace them with a Star Fort and some Hunter class Destroyers and Nova Frigates. Remember, the smaller Space Marine escorts carry troops too, from 1-4 squads each.

Lord_Crull
23-04-2009, 01:24
600,000 men is more than enought to carve out a small empire in the Eastren fringe. Regardless those 600,000 could be quite deadly in 40k terms, di't the taros crusade hav only 10 regiments?

Ozybonza
23-04-2009, 01:24
It's not too large if you can paint 600K men :P

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 02:00
Sorry, I forgot you were dealing with a different interpretation of 40k (as seen in your fiction). In that case, it's fine. So is the oversized chapter for that matter. With your interpretation of 40k so long as it's internally consistent then there's no problems.

Hellebore

Yeah, I tend to insert reason in my scaling of things. A thousand marines could probably win a battle. Probably. But could they accomplish real objectives on the ground? No. The Guard would do the work. In this case these guys are crafty enough to induct men as "Chapter Serfs" rather than PDF and have them crew their war trophy fleet.


My recommendations
PDF Navy: Drop about half of those cruisers and add some light cruisers and destroyer flotillas instead. I can't see the Navy being happy that you have a Battleship and Battlecruisers, so it may be best to have an actual Naval squadron assigned to the planet. Thus the balance of power is officially kept, but unofficially the squadron could be at the disposal of the PDF.

Space Marine Fleet: With that many ships, it looks like you have a fleet based chapter. I'd personally drop a battle barge and a strike cruiser or two and replace them with a Star Fort and some Hunter class Destroyers and Nova Frigates. Remember, the smaller Space Marine escorts carry troops too, from 1-4 squads each.

Yeah they're Fleet Based. They have a recruiting hive world with recruiting centers (because fortress monasteries are so ostentatious) but no real presence there. Their Chapter Master is considered the Governor of the planet but he hasn't set foot there in decades. An appointed mortal holds the post in his absence.

Perhaps they worked out a deal with the local naval fleet and offered them most of their captures in order to ignore their own additional ships. The Navy sees the chapter as a great asset to the regions defense and hasn't said anything about it the marine fleet as they're getting a influx of new ships to repair and use for themselves. The Marines keep up good relations within their sector.


600,000 men is more than enought to carve out a small empire in the Eastern fringe. Regardless those 600,000 could be quite deadly in 40k terms, di't the taros crusade hav only 10 regiments?

1. They aren't on the Eastern Fringe.
2. Taros was a minor show of force on a virtually useless planet by the Imperium to show the Tau every Imperial planet would at least resist them.
3. I can hardly imagine that Taros is a good example of a Imperial world, it was a mining colony on the edge of space.



It's not too large if you can paint 600K men :P

Swell...

Lord_Crull
23-04-2009, 02:07
1. They aren't on the Eastern Fringe.
2. Taros was a minor show of force on a virtually useless planet by the Imperium to show the Tau every Imperial planet would at least resist them.
3. I can hardly imagine that Taros is a good example of a Imperial world, it was a mining colony on the edge of space.


''That minor show of force'' had astartes support and a titan legion

Gravalax had about thirty thousand Guardsmen.

Only six regiments were sent to Vervunhive.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
23-04-2009, 02:21
''That minor show of force'' had astartes support and a tian legion

For the shock value. In terms of combat effectiveness, both were fairly moot.

MajorWesJanson
23-04-2009, 02:44
Wasn't the Titan Legion a couple of pairs of Warhounds? Impressive, yes, but not a significant allocation of resources by the Mechanicus.

Not all regiments are the same size either.


The new guard Rulebook has mentions of large battles, with the largest armored battle since the Heresy including I believe 800 tank companies and 35 superheavy detachments, all of which were lost destroying a renegade titan legion. There's also a mention of raising 10,000 regiments, I believe at once. I just glanced through it, so you'll have to wait on the quotes.

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 02:46
Vervunhive was one of many many hives. A hive is about a billion people.

Besides Six regiments could be either 6,000 elite troops 1.2 million men if they were Krieg Siege Regiments.

According to lex, Vervunhive had close to six hundred thousand standing troops. It only had 40 million people.

Then: Soon after this, Warmaster Macaroth deployed massive reinforcements to the planet, which included 6 million Guardsmen, 500,000 tanks, 3 companies from each of the Iron Snakes and Imperial Fists Chapter, and 2 Titan Legions. The Imperial reinforcements then proceeded to hunt down and exterminate the last of the Zoican forces. The battle was finally won.

So a single hive took two hive cities standing armies plus six million men, and a huge number of support.

A single hive. Hiveworlds sometimes have hundreds of them.

TrooperTino
23-04-2009, 10:28
I would say it so: the Inquisition is watching them, but because they (marine chapter) have a stybilising influence on this region, a good reputation, and their geneseed is clean, no acts are taking against them.

I mean 600k men is... well, not much for an army^^ it sounds like much because GW is using unrealistic numbers in most of their campaigns/books.

Iff you are concerned about having too much naval firepower, why not transport the bulk of the troops in ordinary troopcarriers instead of armed warships?

Lord_Crull
23-04-2009, 15:11
But we don't see those numbers fo example in many of the guard books. I mean look at the inital numbers for the Guard at Armegeddon, it's ridiculously low.

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 19:49
I would say it so: the Inquisition is watching them, but because they (marine chapter) have a stabilizing influence on this region, a good reputation, and their geneseed is clean, no acts are taking against them.

I mean 600k men is... well, not much for an army^^ it sounds like much because GW is using unrealistic numbers in most of their campaigns/books.

Iff you are concerned about having too much naval firepower, why not transport the bulk of the troops in ordinary troopcarriers instead of armed warships?

Who aren't the Inquisition watching?

I may cut the number of cruisers to a half dozen. Most of the men are already on Troop Transports.

Second Question: How many regiments do each of these ships carry?

Battleship:
Battle Cruiser:
Cruiser:
Transport:

Its three on a run of the mill military transport isn't it?
I can't for the life of me recall the capacity of the others.