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Woodsman
23-04-2009, 00:36
Just curious, how likely is it, that a daemon/dragon slayer lives upto it's name? I guess we should look at riderless dragons and all varieties and any of the four daemons would suffice!

Just a random thought, surely they should be able to kill their namesakes (at least one of the four??) around 50% of the time. mathhammerically speaking or would this shoot the points up hugely? Don't have a stunty book so taking potshots in the dark here;)

Be great if someone could come up with some liklehoods etc?

Cheers, Woody.

Shiodome
23-04-2009, 02:49
for me, daemon/dragon slayer means those are the creatures that will be a worthy doom for them. they're good enough to take on any beast less powerfull than those two, so only a deamon or dragon will grant them the doom they seek.

in game terms, no... no chance. :P they will never get the charge, and have no armour, the rune that gives ASF is a master rune so taking it means they can't take the killy runes needed to do enough damage. if a dragon somehow got charged by a 3" move dwarf the stuny might have a chance... but if that happened the dragon would deserve it.

Kalec
23-04-2009, 02:58
Depends on the daemon. A daemonslayer could take a nurgling without too much trouble, after all.

TheGreatWhiteRat
23-04-2009, 03:14
On the table top I don't think they would win. But not everything in Warhammer happens on the table top. A slayer vs a demon or a dragon would better be played out as a role play.

In a cave or a mountain there would be plenty of ways for a slayer to get the drop on a much more 'powerful' dragon. In the open featureless plains of battle there is no chance.

Agoz
23-04-2009, 03:48
If the dragonslayer had access to the slayer skills from the storm of chaos list, I think he would have a fair chance of killing it: Dragon slayer: vampire slayer, Master rune of swiftness, Grudge rune. Now you have a character that always strikes first, has a strength 6 (he's fighting a dragon) causes D6 wounds to things with a T 5 or higher, and rerolls misses in hand to hand with the dragon. With a little bit of luck (which a slayer needs anyway to keep from fulfilling his slayer Oath!) you can kill it. and if not, maybe the dragon won't kill you in a round, and you'll get another shot. A Deamonslayer with vampire slayer, death blow, rune of might, master rune of swiftness, grudge rune, and rune of fury would also probably have a decent chance of defeating a greater deamon or deamon prince other than the bloodthirster.

snurl
23-04-2009, 04:41
Slayers can suprise you. My DragonSlayer once took out Azhag the slaughterer, on the second round of combat. It can happen.

Digital~Punk
23-04-2009, 04:57
There was a white dwarf back when the chaos book came out with a dwarf/chaos battle report, if i remember correctly the deamon slayer died taking out a chaos lord riding a juggernaut.

Ozorik
23-04-2009, 07:00
A drgon slayer costs 50 points, he shouldnt be able to kill a dragon. He has a small chance, certainly better than any other 50 point character but....

Dragon slayers are certainly very good value for points though.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 07:14
If they made the slayer unit skirmishing it would remove one of the most dishonourable deaths slayers can face, an arrow to the groin. With that additional -1 then they might actually get into combat die like a slayer should...

I reckon slayer characters should get a Toughness test 'save' on their last wound, representing their inhuman determination (unless the attack was double their T or Killing Blow). Of course they'd have to be more expensive, but I like the visual of them having to be dragged down by dozens of foes whilst half a dozen arrows stuck out of them.


Hellebore

snurl
23-04-2009, 07:22
Thats what made doomseekers so cool. fluff wise they were right on the money.

Darkling5687
23-04-2009, 07:27
In my experience using dragonslayer, they can really hold there own for 50 points, even with 3 inch move u can use terrain to get the charge in support of ur line once the enemy hits. rear charged a giant and killed it once, have also downed a few trolls, also got real lucky once when knights were trying to flank my lines charged him thinking they could go right into my siege weapons, little did they know they packed rubber lances that day and the slayer broke em, thanks to my friends horrible rolling. didnt catch em tho.....

mr.kislev
23-04-2009, 07:48
they arent as good as in backround but i think that normal slayers should be skirmishers and be frenzied. (they are battle mad dwarfs why would they line up all neat and tidy?)

Woodsman
23-04-2009, 07:55
Depends on the daemon. A daemonslayer could take a nurgling without too much trouble, after all.

I was thinking along th GD lines...:)

At 50points it would be crazy if they could take out a dragon.
Ah well. Fluffwise I don't think a slayer would sneak up on a dragon. i always imagined they would stand outside it's lair and swear at it until it came out to fight them. This sort of approach just fits in a bit more with their overall aim, for me at leat.

Cheers, woody.

Kerill
23-04-2009, 09:23
I think you are reading too much into the name, The greatest slayer of all time, protected by the gods with the most powerful runic axe ever forged (and specifically for killing daemons) only managed to take down a bloodthirster with an army at his back, the thirster already sorely wounded and then struck from behind by one of the other greatest dwarven relics.

He also only managed to take down a dragon with it being wounded and the aid of a powerful mage, companion with a dragonslaying sword etc.

Leogun_91
23-04-2009, 09:27
A Trollslayer has no chance to kill a troll
A giantslayer has no chance to kill a giant
A Dragonslayer has no chance to kill a Dragon
A Demonslayer has no chance to kill a Greaterdeamon but maybe a small chance to kill a Deamonprince.

Runed up this changes but runes on slayers doesn´t fit the fluff very well and the slayer is still at a disadvantage.

Grimstonefire
23-04-2009, 10:01
I would dispute the first two. My slayers have taken down a few trolls in their time. Giant slayers don't always match their name ( I have killed 1 giant), but I have killed several dragons with a daemon slayer as well.

So I think aside from the trollslayers, if you look at the next level down that's what they're pretty good at.

I think they need to really step up the slayers in 8th, perhaps giving them ward save based on tattoos (as in SoC) as standard.

BattleofLund
23-04-2009, 10:53
I think they need to really step up the slayers in 8th, perhaps giving them ward save based on tattoos (as in SoC) as standard.

Disagree; whole point of being a Slayer is coming to an honourable end. 'Suicide by combat'. Dwarves are tough, leave it to silly Herb Elves to seek magical protection through tattos.

mr.kislev
23-04-2009, 10:57
He also only managed to take down a dragon with it being wounded and the aid of a powerful mage, companion with a dragonslaying sword etc.
it was a chaos mutated one


and specifically for killing daemons
where does it say that? which book? you might be thinking of felixs sword which is made for kill dragons.

BattleofLund
23-04-2009, 11:19
where does it say that? which book? you might be thinking of felixs sword which is made for kill dragons.

Arcane Magic, 1995. Gotrek's Axe always wounded on a 2+, only magical armour could save (and at -3), and did D3 wounds. Against Daemons and Dragons D6 wounds instead.

Woodsman
23-04-2009, 11:22
Yeah, sorry no save for slayers. However giving them a little more power to match their names would gain my vote at least! However, I suppose if they can take out the creatures below them, i.e. daemon slayer killing a dragon this would make sense!

Cheers, Woody.

Grimstonefire
23-04-2009, 13:11
I always liked the idea of slayers being too stubborn to die easily, the equivalent of death company, where a slayer could have a couple of arrows in him and an arm chopped off and still be able to take down some enemies! Obviously he would die eventually soon after.

Kerill
23-04-2009, 13:25
Arcane Magic, 1995. Gotrek's Axe always wounded on a 2+, only magical armour could save (and at -3), and did D3 wounds. Against Daemons and Dragons D6 wounds instead.

Yep, his axe always had daemonslaying rune in the past. Also in the novels (although the last few are awful) it's mentioned there.

And a chaos dragon is not quite a star dragon.

Slayers could have more interesting rules though, maybe +1 attack if outnumbered by the enemy unit and +1 attacks against units that cause fear, +2 if the enemy causes terror. Would need a slight point increase though, would fit the fluff better. But at the end of the day they are just dwarves and should be limited in what they can do, killing greater daemons with a normal axe is not one of them.

vorthrax
23-04-2009, 14:49
What about allowing Slayers to either re-roll failed To-Hit rolls OR To-Wound rolls? Maybe they would have the ability to do both but would have to pick one or the other at the start of combat. That would give them an extra edge and be pretty fluffy.

Woodsman
23-04-2009, 15:42
Perhaps they should always have to charge fear causing units if possible or if a choice presents itself they will charge the unit with higher static CR/points value.

Then chuck in an extra attack after they die to represent their unwillingness to stay down without making them harder to kill. The last attack could be at higher than usual WS, but, this would probably make things more complicated.

Grimstonefire
23-04-2009, 20:39
If they were to have a another attack with their deathblow at base strength (before any modifiers), how many points would that be for a regular troll slayer? 3pts per model? I could live with that.

It wouldn't help from missile fire, but it would more than pay for itself in combat.