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Drogmir
23-04-2009, 01:01
Looking through my old fabled Rogue Trader book I noticed a little blurb on the introduction part to Eldar.

In a basic summary it said, genetically Eldar are very close to humans, with being paler and having pointed ears being the only noticeable difference.

Then the article mentions how viable offspring of Eldar and Human is a rare but viable occasion and that Imperial scientists haven't been able to figure out why beyond the idea that humans and Eldar shared a common ancestor.

In the 3rd edition rulebook they stated how some "misguided" humans find Eldar to be beautiful.

Now on current fluff, I know that Eldar have the whole "every Eldar is psychic now." which was missing in the original fluff.

But can anybody find some direct quotes regarding whether humans and Eldar can still interbreed? From what I can tell GW just seems to have a "ho hum let's not mention it anymore vibe." ;)

Aliarzathanil
23-04-2009, 01:09
Let's run with that vibe and not mention it anymore.

Seriously.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 01:11
The Xenology book specifically says that eldar DNA is NOT like human DNA. The description and image shows a 4 sided DNA strand, rather than the standard Earth two sided.

So, Xenology removes the means for the hybrid to exist, without having to say that a hybrid can't exist.

In the same way that for example, we say gravity pulls down so apples hit the floor. However in the newst information gravity pulls up. The basis for the apple hitting the floor has changed and so it now must go up, even though the newest information does not state that it does.

Hellebore

klstrider28
23-04-2009, 01:14
Let's run with that vibe and not mention it anymore.

Seriously.

2nded

though I sincerely doubt that it'd be possible.

Humans and Eldar are two different SPECIES that evolved isolated from eachother (a galaxy and many years apart).

Biology says not a chance...

Eldarion
23-04-2009, 01:17
A cause of Alpha level psykers.......Hunt them!
Ah but In Typhu's fluff it mentions him originating from a slave world, owned by a psyker race(perhaps hinting eldar), and he has descended from that blood line.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
23-04-2009, 01:18
Humans and Eldar are two different SPECIES that evolved isolated from eachother (a galaxy and many years apart).


Now, how do we know that? Mankind might well be a creation of the Old Ones too, and interchangeability is the mark of a good craftsman...

Unless the fluff covers this, too. I'm drawing a blank.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 01:20
Well, humanity appeared ~59 million years after the old ones disappeared. The eldar existed throughout that time in a different part of the galaxy.

You would also have to argue that orks are thus breedable with humans and/or eldar, because they were made by the old ones too.

Hellebore

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
23-04-2009, 02:23
Well, humanity appeared ~59 million years after the old ones disappeared. The eldar existed throughout that time in a different part of the galaxy.


Truetrue. Timescale was what I was missing. Still, I can see some possible latent Old One influence on Humanity...so many of their other creations were bipedal, had arms and a head and all that...

kikkoman
23-04-2009, 02:29
If they are ever written to be able to breed with humans

then surely, they would also be able to breed with orks.

Delane Oktar
23-04-2009, 02:31
Lets compare........you are a beautiful bird of paradise (eldar) and you think that semi evolved single celled organism (humanity) looks like a good lay............or if you want to get slightly more evolved.....monkeys have pretty much the same bits as we do but we're still VERY incompatible...........

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 02:35
They would have to have done something to little rats/primatoids in the late cretaceous or early Palaeogene to have an affect on humanity 60 million years later.

Strangely the races that still exist today from those created by the old ones are all warrior races designed purely to fight the necron horde (or the enslavers that came after). We don't see any races that were expected to continue. Even the eldar are just a psychic gun created by the old ones to point at the necrons.

I suppose it's not strange that WARRIOR races survived, that's what they do. But humanity couldn't have been a warrior race because they made those virtually instantly when they needed them. Poof! Eldar to kill necrons. Poof! Orks to defend against enslavers.

I can't see humanity being an old one experiment because of the time gap and because they would have no purpose.
There are many races in the galaxy that aren't products of the old ones. The kroot and tau definitely aren't (although the tau were mucked with by someone after they appeared). The Nicassar, Enoulians, Tarelians, Demiurg, are all unlikely to be Old One creations.

Hellebore

Zahr Dalsk
23-04-2009, 02:53
The Xenology book specifically says that eldar DNA is NOT like human DNA. The description and image shows a 4 sided DNA strand, rather than the standard Earth two sided.

Pretty sure it's quintuple helix in Xenology.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 03:01
Five sided? Well, either way it ain't gonna happen. We can't even combine normal TWO stranded DNA from two seperate groups on earth NOW, so the idea that an alien species can do it with quad or quin DNA is ridiculous.

Hellebore

Zahr Dalsk
23-04-2009, 03:04
Aye - and there is also that Eldar reproduction involves multiple periods of insemination (the Eldar couple mate several times during pregnancy), which human reproduction does not.

Eldar look like humans because 40k has its roots in WHFB. But aside from surface appearance, they are completely alien.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
23-04-2009, 03:05
They would have to have done something to little rats/primatoids in the late cretaceous or early Palaeogene to have an affect on humanity 60 million years later.

Strangely the races that still exist today from those created by the old ones are all warrior races designed purely to fight the necron horde (or the enslavers that came after). We don't see any races that were expected to continue. Even the eldar are just a psychic gun created by the old ones to point at the necrons.

I suppose it's not strange that WARRIOR races survived, that's what they do. But humanity couldn't have been a warrior race because they made those virtually instantly when they needed them. Poof! Eldar to kill necrons. Poof! Orks to defend against enslavers.

I can't see humanity being an old one experiment because of the time gap and because they would have no purpose.
There are many races in the galaxy that aren't products of the old ones. The kroot and tau definitely aren't (although the tau were mucked with by someone after they appeared). The Nicassar, Enoulians, Tarelians, Demiurg, are all unlikely to be Old One creations.

Hellebore

Good points there...however, I could see us being some experiment-gone-wrong...say, the Old Ones are tinkering, inserting their tell-tale physiological markers when suddenly, the Necrontyr menace is a more pressing manner. Poof, we get abandoned, and left to evolution's devices. Eventually, a somewhat altered version of the Old One's vision emerges- mankind. Abandonment can explain the slow pace, and our differences from other created races. Hell, the steady increase in psykers could be the genetic engineering still at work...we're turning into Eldar! Oh, phear!

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 03:10
Hmmm, another thing to consider is that genetically humanity can be traced in a nice big genetic web to everything around them. For the old ones to have manipulated the 60 million year old ancestors of humanity, they would have had to leave genes that don't make sense for the genetic history of life on earth. But humanity clearly fits into that history.

*shrug*, I don't think humanity was developed by the old ones in any way shape or form, but that's just me.

Hellebore

Drogmir
23-04-2009, 03:44
Ok well I realize in real life that could never happen, but that fluff from the Rogue Trader days is still there.

Which makes me wonder why they even had it in the first place.

massey
23-04-2009, 03:51
Xenology is full of crap though. Tau with hooves, right?

Besides, if you want to bring real science into it, I don't think a quintuple helix is even possible. As in, chemically it doesn't work.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 03:59
So 25 year old background is still valid but newer stuff is not? The fact is that it HAS been contradicted. The chief librarian of the Ultramarines is not a half eldar these days.

So as far as I am concerned, even if you discount Xenology, it's still not possible. Too much peripheral information has changed for the concept from RT to be possible. A known half eldar would be exterminated not given a position in one of the most prestigious chapters in the galaxy.

EDIT: Out of Game, there is also the statement made by Rick Priestley (I believe in one of his Standard Bearer articles when filling in for Jervis) that he doesn't like half breeds as they dilute archetypes. Rick P likes strong archetypes. This is the same reason races in WFB are no longer producing half elves or half orcs. So Out of Game one of the core designers dislikes them and in game 40k has changed so much in the areas this is pertinent that it isn't possible now anyway.


Hellebore

Drogmir
23-04-2009, 04:11
So 25 year old background is still valid but newer stuff is not?

Hellebore

I never said that... in case you were implying it to me.

I was just wondering, if they hated half breeds so much why even have the possibility in RT? Seeing how my question on what the genetics status has already been answered.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 04:17
I was talking to Massey. His justification was because Xenology was 'crap' (ie didn't agree with him) it didn't count.

Half breeds may have been put into the story by another one of the designers (there were several at the time), although they were only ever 'fluff' characters and you couldn't actually have armies with them.

It was also much closer to D&D at the time (as was WFB) back when there were half orcs and half elves in WFB. They've since moved away from it.

Hellebore

Fable
23-04-2009, 04:23
As it stands now is a tough question. The real question is do we want to acknowledge the old Ultramarine Chief Librarian (before the invention of Tigerius) who was Half-Eldar (mmmm extensive ancient fluff knowledge). If we're going to pretend that that never happened then no, the current information out there tends to suggest that it is simply not possible. If we do consider it then yes, because he was a background character in the fluff.

Drogmir
23-04-2009, 04:29
As it stands now is a tough question. The real question is do we want to acknowledge the old Ultramarine Chief Librarian (before the invention of Tigerius) who was Half-Eldar (mmmm extensive ancient fluff knowledge). If we're going to pretend that that never happened then no, the current information out there tends to suggest that it is simply not possible. If we do consider it then yes, because he was a background character in the fluff.

Ah it feels like the Soviet Union.

Do we acknowledge the existence of this "unperson"? :p

Zahr Dalsk
23-04-2009, 04:38
Xenology is full of crap though.

So are people who actually like the whole half-elf concept. There's a reason GW let it die.



Besides, if you want to bring real science into it, I don't think a quintuple helix is even possible. As in, chemically it doesn't work.

Yes it does, but the arrangement of the base chemicals is very, very different from that of an even-numbered helix. You can try making a model of it in Google SketchUp or Autodesk 3D Studio Max, if you like.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 05:16
As it stands now is a tough question. The real question is do we want to acknowledge the old Ultramarine Chief Librarian (before the invention of Tigerius) who was Half-Eldar (mmmm extensive ancient fluff knowledge). If we're going to pretend that that never happened then no, the current information out there tends to suggest that it is simply not possible. If we do consider it then yes, because he was a background character in the fluff.

Well no, because then you'd have to admit the existence of Leman Russ the imperial general born in M32 that founded 'Adeptus Astartes Unit 4' the Space Wolves and had an osmotic gill due to breathing in acid on Susa.

Things change, even to the point characters are different. Now Lysander isn't dead, he was retconned back to life. Are we to simultaneously have both a dead and live Lysander?

Are the Space Wolves to be founded by both a crippled Imperial commander called Leman Russ and a mighty demigod primarch called Leman Russ? Is the homeworld of the space wolves Fenris or Lucan? Is the leader of the Space Wolves the Planetary Governor of Lucan and called Lord Lucan, or the Great Wolf nicknamed Old Wolf?

Are orks both green marsupials AND sporing asexuals?


It is very easy to remove the existence of a half eldar chief Librarian when even more substantial changes have been made to the background over the years.

Hellebore

Aliarzathanil
23-04-2009, 06:11
What is it with gamers and elf chicks?

Look, it's not gonna happen. Eldar girls are so fickle. It might start casually, and then before you know it, you're head over heels in love. And then, only a few weeks in, out of the blue she drops the whole "I love you, I'm just not IN love with you" speech. You're devastated. Maybe, after the disappointment and shock subsides, you can be friends. Possibly even hang out on the weekdays, maybe catch a show, but reproduction is just out of the question. It just can't happen.

Look, I know it hurts now, but in a few months you'll thank me. I have to be honest, you're just too different. Look, she's a morning person, you like to sleep in. You like a quiet night on the sofa, she has five strand DNA. You think she's beatiful when she's angry, she thinks you're a member of an inferior race that is barely above vermin on an evolutionary scale. Some differences are just too big to overcome no matter how hard you try.

You know what the worst part is? She KNEW it would end this way.

Damn psykers.

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 06:21
What are you talking about? LOVE can bloom (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/8/87/LCB_Kissu.jpg/120px-LCB_Kissu.jpg&imgrefurl=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Love_Can_Bloom&usg=___3laRMr8hR_aRlXvOeYN3ZvrThc=&h=113&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=-Fx60-VjYWwHgM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlove%2Bcan%2Bbloom%2Bmacha%2Beldar%2B vindicare%2Blove%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaXC%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1), just not the dangly fandango resulting in abodominally parasitic sprogeny.

Hellebore

kylsnik ironhead
23-04-2009, 07:00
What are you talking about? LOVE can bloom (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/8/87/LCB_Kissu.jpg/120px-LCB_Kissu.jpg&imgrefurl=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Love_Can_Bloom&usg=___3laRMr8hR_aRlXvOeYN3ZvrThc=&h=113&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=-Fx60-VjYWwHgM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlove%2Bcan%2Bbloom%2Bmacha%2Beldar%2B vindicare%2Blove%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaXC%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1), just not the dangly fandango resulting in abodominally parasitic sprogeny.

Hellebore

thou has committed heresy of the vilest kind this abomination you have brought before us must be scoured from the holy internet and its creator burned at the stake where the cleansing flames can do their great work

Hellebore
23-04-2009, 07:06
Hehehehe.

Hellebore

Nezmith
23-04-2009, 09:12
For some unknown reason, LCB keeps popping up in threads such as these.

Personally I'd say if you searched hard enough, and found a DAoT planet, there could be sufficent technology there to create a half-breed of the two races. But who would want to do that? I don't think a single Eldar pirate would be caught dead in bed with a human.

The only Eldar that probably wouldn't be hesitating would be the Dark Eldar. But then I can't imagine the act being for the purpose of breeding... at all.

All in all, a human would probably have a better chance of seducing a female Necron. :D

Rockerfella
23-04-2009, 10:01
I'm sure, in one of the more hideous BL books (I think its brotherhood of the snake) a saucy dark Eldar female rides the hell out of some human leader on a planet the snake is sent to investigate.

Its all very...odd.

Darkstar2586
23-04-2009, 11:02
I'm sure, in one of the more hideous BL books (I think its brotherhood of the snake) a saucy dark Eldar female rides the hell out of some human leader on a planet the snake is sent to investigate.

Its all very...odd.

Shocking, and kids play this game? :P

FlashGordon
23-04-2009, 11:15
yeah, sex is dangerous, exploding ammunition is normal!

Terror of the East
23-04-2009, 13:00
In dark heresy im sure it implies the closest humans will get to being half breeds with xenos creatures is if evil debased experiments on gene splicing and all manner of stuff by the mechanicus biologists happens, and this just creates "kill me now" monsters.
No mention of any experiments with Eldar or anything, im sure Eldar DNA is to complex to work with and not compatible with humans, but im also sure that experiments may have gone on in dark heretical corners of the imperium and not worked.

Zahr Dalsk
23-04-2009, 13:10
Using genetic modification to make a "human-Eldar hybrid" would be impossible. The closest you could get is altering pure human DNA to make it look more like an Eldar (though it would only be skin-deep; the fake Eldar would be nowhere near as strong, as fast, as agile, or as potent a psyker as a real Eldar).

Poseidal
23-04-2009, 14:40
The old fluff, like dear old Nastase are long past. We can probably say he just was prettier and thinner than your average Ultramarine, and being called 'Half Eldar' was like one of those nicknames soldiers give each other.

On the other hand, the forbidden fluff talks of one half Eldar called 'Lofn'; even worse than this, she hangs around with Lil' E (ie the Emperor reborn). Is this what happens after love blooms on the battlefield?

One will never know, thanks to the 'coincidence' of the Eversor Assassin being deployed near where the Writer-Scribe was finishing the annals.

aberrant_unc
23-04-2009, 14:47
Slaanesh approves this message. There is nothing wrong with interspecies xenos breeding programs. THAT won't lead to corruption. Seriously, I promise.



[Slaanesh high fives nurgle]

Fable
23-04-2009, 15:00
Are we to simultaneously have both a dead and live Lysander?


Schrodinger's Zombie Lysander. Both are equally valid and true with no logical conflict. In this way it is simply individual perception on which fluff is to recognized an which isn't. For some, the coupling is not possible. For others, it not only happened, but the resultant offspring rose through the ranks to become the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines for a time. Niether version is more accurate than the other. It's all about perception.

baphomael
23-04-2009, 15:06
Things change, even to the point characters are different. Now Lysander isn't dead, he was retconned back to life. Are we to simultaneously have both a dead and live Lysander?

Hellebore


Only if he's in a box-set.

The Friendly Lieuenant
23-04-2009, 15:50
Using genetic modification to make a "human-Eldar hybrid" would be impossible. The closest you could get is altering pure human DNA to make it look more like an Eldar (though it would only be skin-deep; the fake Eldar would be nowhere near as strong, as fast, as agile, or as potent a psyker as a real Eldar).

I don't get the impression eldar are any stronger than normal humans. At most equivalent. And I would say certainly not as tough considering how most humans live in 40K. Humans are animalistic in their eyes and brutal. Brute force I don't imagine being an honored eldar trait in any way. But all that other stuff most certainly

Poseidal
23-04-2009, 16:07
I don't get the impression eldar are any stronger than normal humans. At most equivalent. And I would say certainly not as tough considering how most humans live in 40K. Humans are animalistic in their eyes and brutal. Brute force I don't imagine being an honored eldar trait in any way. But all that other stuff most certainly

Imagine their physique to be more like an NBA player (tall, very quick, speed enhances power).

That's your average Eldar Baker, not even the Athletes or Warriors.

Zahr Dalsk
23-04-2009, 16:28
I don't get the impression eldar are any stronger than normal humans. At most equivalent. And I would say certainly not as tough considering how most humans live in 40K.

With regards to strength - Eldar muscles are coiled like springs, and have a much greater strength-per-mass ratio than humans. This is also what allows for their extreme speed.

As for toughness, no. "hurr hurr -con" comes from DnD where they made elves fragile for balance reasons, but Eldar are based more on LotR elves and suffer nothing with regards to toughness. How tough most humans live in 40k? Eldar were genetically engineered to be the perfect warrior species and haven't evolved since then. There is literally no reason why they'd be fragile.

HK-47
23-04-2009, 17:14
The argument on whether an Eldar and human would have sex is really moot, because there is no way a Craftworld Eldar would do have those feelings for a human. All they'll feel is pity for us being so primitive. A Dark Eldar, dispute what is said is certain fluff, would not do it. I mean why would you do it with a human? We are cows to them; herded and slaughtered for our souls. Why would they even care what happens to us?

Lord Zarkov
23-04-2009, 17:41
Well it's not like some human's don't do equivalent things....

It would be a very strange Eldar that would do such a thing, but that's not to say a few don't exist.

kikkoman
23-04-2009, 18:23
What is it with gamers and elf chicks?


For Eldar though, it's not Elf Chicks, it's elf DUDES.

This is a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very important distinction between 40k's space elves, and any other setting's elves.

In Rogue Trader, Eldar were something like a roving band of hedonistic Space Glam Rocker Mercenary Hair Band Pirate lechers.
The only instances of half breeds, it was always a deadbeat Eldar dead that left momma to raise the kid all by her lonesome.

a human-Eldar encounter is more likely to be Yriel coming through your window, telling you he can take you away from all your problems in his magical space elf fairytale kingdom, for the human race is but a young and inexperienced teenage girl in comparison to the Bowie-esque sexiness of the eldar.

Poseidal
23-04-2009, 22:32
For Eldar though, it's not Elf Chicks, it's elf DUDES.

This is a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very important distinction between 40k's space elves, and any other setting's elves.

In Rogue Trader, Eldar were something like a roving band of hedonistic Space Glam Rocker Mercenary Hair Band Pirate lechers.
The only instances of half breeds, it was always a deadbeat Eldar dead that left momma to raise the kid all by her lonesome.

a human-Eldar encounter is more likely to be Yriel coming through your window, telling you he can take you away from all your problems in his magical space elf fairytale kingdom, for the human race is but a young and inexperienced teenage girl in comparison to the Bowie-esque sexiness of the eldar.

Best Interpretation Ever.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
23-04-2009, 22:54
Best Interpretation Ever.

He's Kikkioman. Anything less would be unacceptable.

David Bowie approves of you, my good tofu-investigating friend. Carry on.

Imperialis_Dominatus
24-04-2009, 00:38
LOVE can bloom (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/8/87/LCB_Kissu.jpg/120px-LCB_Kissu.jpg&imgrefurl=http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Love_Can_Bloom&usg=___3laRMr8hR_aRlXvOeYN3ZvrThc=&h=113&w=120&sz=4&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=-Fx60-VjYWwHgM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlove%2Bcan%2Bbloom%2Bmacha%2Beldar%2B vindicare%2Blove%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaXC%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

endless
24-04-2009, 00:42
...and easily demonstrates this whole thing. The Eldar of RT were very much 'Space Elves11!!' and subject to DnD thinking, where Bowie and girl/boy confusion were very much the unsaid norm. Which is fine, and probably very helpful for adolescent boys who are still working stuff out. However, the idea of Eldar has moved on a little and, especially from WD127 onwards, the concept has become a lot more alien. Personally, I believe that Elves and Eldar should be alien, not easily understandable, and certainly not 'reachable'. Elves are cool, but their concept doesn't easily translate to believable characters, either in roleplay or fiction. One way of conveying this is to remove the possibility of human interaction, which is is what GW did. For me it works, and TBH, the alternative smacks of geek wish fulfilment.:angel:

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 01:19
A bit I posted on /tg/ with changes I would, personally make to Eldar. Edited the stuff I'm posting here because Warseer is worth more effort.

Digitigrade legs/feet/whatever, similar to that of a dog or other such animal, with the feet being shaped somewhat akin to a bird in that they have three toes, which occupy a larger portion of the foot than a human's toes would. Consequently, Seer types no longer wear a full-around robe, but rather one with slits at the sides, or sometimes simply a strip of hanging cloth similar to that of Wraithlords.

Elongated head that matches the shape of their helmets. Shape is similar to that of the haemonculus drawn by sweatychickenboy at DeviantART.
No natural hair, though some use it artificially in helmet ornamentation.
Mouth shape is also altered to fit the head shape. Mouth can open wider than previously.
Ears are kept sleek to the side of the head.

Alongside the two normal eyes, add a third, Navigator-style, on the forehead, though in keeping with the head shape, let the eyelid close horizontally, evenly from each side, and have the corners of the eye be arranged like such as well (one corner at top, another at bottom, unlike the standard left-right of a human eye.) Helmet shape remains normal - this eye sees psychically and does not need a viewing port in the helmet.

Their bodies are made of, amongst other things, Wraithbone, particularly their skeleton. Their skin is softer wraithbone, and when they put on armour, it literally acts as part of their body. In the case of Exarchs, it fuses permanently. They do not have red blood; their blood is a silvery-blue fluid and functions not for oxygen transfer, but as an energy conduit (no cells, just liquid). Energy is gained by consuming organically grown crystals that absorb and purify Warp energy during growth, allowing the Eldar to gain energy from it safely. As you might imagine, they have an incredible bite force.

They do not have cells or DNA. Though they have some analogues to other species, such as a nervous system, eyes, etc, it is not cellular in nature.

Eldar do not have genitals; neither do they have an anus or other similar excretionary systems. The crystals they consume are completely reduced and absorbed in their equivalent of a stomach. Excess fluid is removed through return to the stomach and regurgitation. Their body modifies to have a womb and birth canal for pregnancy; on all other occasions they merely have smooth skin.

The soul stone that Eldar wear is surgically implanted when the Eldar reaches maturity, and occupies a spot inside their chest centred. On death, other Eldar will rip open their corpse to remove the stone and allow their soul to return to the Infinity Circuit (as a Craftworld's soul-powered strength depends on the number of Eldar in it, both living and dead). If the soul stone was destroyed, the Eldar's soul will usually flee to the nearest artificial soul stone, for all Seers carry spare artificial soul stones in case of such an event. Failing that, the soul attempts to remain in the Materium for as long as possible. When the pull of the Warp becomes too great, the Eldar usually chooses oblivion, and voluntarily ends its own consciousness forever.

The birth of Y'nnead could allow them to return to their Craftworld safely through the Warp, without the use of spirit stones, as they did before the birth of Slaanesh. Such an event is a long way off, though.

They have no heart. Fluid circulation proceeds slowly over time, aided by their own movement. They do not have lungs and do not breathe. Speech is done through psychic energy channeled through their vocal cords and converted into sound waves. They have nervous clusters throughout the body, allowing for extremely fast reaction times. They also have a heightened sensitivity to pain, though the Eldar species lost the association of pain as a negative sensation millions of years ago, and it serves as merely an indicator of damage (which, as they are mainly made of Wraithbone, takes longer to heal unaided than a fleshy creature would, though a Bonesinger can accelerate the process).

Their skin colour depends on the Craftworld, usually matching the Craftworld's colours to a degree, since their skin is of course Wraithbone.

The species reproduces psychically; Eldar do not have multiple genders and do not evolve; when an Eldar is ready to reproduce it undergoes a biological change and develops a womb; once the new Eldar is born, the parent Eldar reverts to their normal genderless state. They are not mammals and do not have breasts, nipples, or other characteristics that we might expect. They do not engage in sexual intercourse, either, and never have - the Fall came from other forms of extremes, such as extreme sonic and visual stimulation, narcotics, etc. A newly born Eldar feeds in the same manner as the adults. It takes roughly two terran years to reach maturity, though they do not die of age (falling, instead, in battle). This quick growth comes from their roots as a weapon, when it was required that they reproduce in vast numbers to cope with losses fighting the Necrons. Why they do not do so now is unknown to the rest of the galaxy, and it is suspected to be a voluntary refusal for an unknown reason.

Result - not elves any more; now a far more alien species, though still retaining the Eldar feel, perhaps more so than before, even. I might expand on this more some other time.

Your mileage may vary. Some people will like this idea, others won't.

SimonL
24-04-2009, 03:52
Zahr, that is spectacularly awesome, but far too original for Warhammer :D

Also, you're ruining my space-elf maiden fantasies....;)

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 04:00
Schrodinger's Zombie Lysander. Both are equally valid and true with no logical conflict. In this way it is simply individual perception on which fluff is to recognized an which isn't. For some, the coupling is not possible. For others, it not only happened, but the resultant offspring rose through the ranks to become the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines for a time. Niether version is more accurate than the other. It's all about perception.

Well to start, Lysander can only be both when not observing Warhammer. As soon as you do he must be one of them. Thus if you never actually want to PLAY/READ or otherwise interact with 40k then sure, he can be both.

Otherwise you and everyone else must write an extensive caveat at the beginning of any thread you or any one else starts in 40k Background listing the things you've decided are 'true' in your interpretation so that I can decide how much of a waste of time it is to respond.

If there is no default 'truth' then there is no discussion. There is only 'my interpretation is better than your interpretation' and we can close the background forums down.

There certainly CAN be 'my interpretation and your interpretation' but there MUST be GWs interpretation as well, which, as the originators of the work is the 'true' interpretation (for a given value of true).

However, when we are asked what is the status of interbreeding between humans and eldar, my opinion is irrelevant to the evidence as provided by the material for 40k by GW.

We weren't asked our OPINIONS and how OUR interpretation views this, we were asked how it 'is', in the same sense that GW "is", or that Alma Cogan "isn't".

Hellebore

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 05:14
Zahr, that is spectacularly awesome, but far too original for Warhammer :D

Thanks. I'm fairly pleased with it myself, and will probably either be working it into the 50k retcons when the site goes up, or using it as background for a new species.

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 05:44
A Wraithbone nervous system is something I've been advocating for years (along with a partially cartilaginous/hydrostatic skeleton) because I think that wraithbone should be a discovery of their own biology rather than a product, which is why their equipment bonds so well and why they have such good reflexes (their soul effectively inhabits their body in all locations simultaneously).

Hellebore

Mr Zoat
24-04-2009, 06:37
I seem to remember a piece of fluff from 2nd ed Codex Eldar about a jetbike squad where the squad leader plugs himself in to a crystal on the handlebars. Anyone have a copy of that book?

kylsnik ironhead
24-04-2009, 09:04
All in all, a human would probably have a better chance of seducing a female Necron. :D ah but Necrons have viberate mode and you dont have to talk to them in the mourning.


Eldar evolved on a different planet then humans so no they can't cross-breed

Lamhirh
24-04-2009, 10:06
Oh by Isha's mammary analogues...not this again :rolleyes:.

If it's not impossible it's certainly very rare. First you have the cultural barriers and mutual squick factor to overcome which in the case of CWE especially is a formidable obstacle. Suppose somehow an eldar and a human feel sexually attracted to one another and realize that the necessary equipment matches up. Then what? Now we don't know exactly how the eldar's mind-bogglingly complex genetics work and what they are fully capable of as a psychic species, if they possess something akin to reverse transcriptase, have a self-cloning mechanism etc. The result still wouldn't be a true hybrid because there would be no recombination of genetic material, segments have to be spliced together at certain intervals or kept separate and then utilized as needed. Bottom line is even if they mate it doesn't mean the eldar is going to want to procreate, if it did it would do it out of love or because it's offspring could prove particularly useful at some foreseen point :eyebrows:.


It would be a very strange Eldar that would do such a thing, but that's not to say a few don't exist.

A good number of Dark Eldar are that nasty.


A bit I posted on /tg/ with changes I would, personally make to Eldar. Edited the stuff I'm posting here because Warseer is worth more effort...

I've updated the original image so that 'he' is now genderless. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/eldarew.jpg)

I kept the hair but who says it can't serve another purpose besides being decorative? It would probably have the consistency of very fine optical fiber...

Bassik
24-04-2009, 10:18
Why would the old ones have even intervened in the evolution of some warm-blooded, nocturnal shrew-like creatures that would eventually turn out to become mankind? (+ all the other warmblooded weirdo's we have today).

I mean, it happened on Real Earth, why not on Warhammer Earth?

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 10:43
I've updated the original image so that 'he' is now genderless. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/eldarew.jpg)

I kept the hair but who says it can't serve another purpose besides being decorative? It would probably have the consistency of very fine optical fiber...

That's a really nice picture there Lamhirh. :cool:

However, if they are to be digitigrade then the toes are going to need to be much much longer.

Digitigrade has only appeared on earth in quadrapeds and specific bipeds. Those specific bipeds don't have a vertebral arrangement like a human however. I don't think a humanoid creature COULD realistically evolve digitigrade feet. The legs and spine would have to be in vastly different arrangements for it to work. Humans can go onto tip toes, but it does not produce a very stable walking platform, hence why it is done when running so that the forward momentum keeps the body from destabilising.

The digitigrade leg always has the thigh and shin at awkward angles, rather than the columnar stance of a human. If the eldar looked more like a chicken it would work. The beastman/satyr look is also not feasible just to add.

Hellebore

Poseidal
24-04-2009, 11:13
Nice, but I still prefer the more human looking Eldar (well, as currently represented), where their movements look inhuman. It's more of a cosmic grim reminder.

tsutek
24-04-2009, 11:16
You know, reading through this thread reminds me again just lame I always thought some of the eldar fluff to be..

I mean, come on, xenos lifeforms that are way more "advanced" physically and spiritually, and they'd still despise "primitive" lifeforms?

To me, that sounds wayyy too "human-like" thinking, such naiveties. That kind of fluff is why IMO the eldar are just crystal-pooping glamrockers instead of something truly sophisticated and spiritual xenos like they ought to be. If you write their fluff with a human-centric view in regards of their culture, habits and expression, the results are not "alien" enough.

I'd see it very possible to mashup human and eldar DNA to create "halfbreeds" - but a thing such as that could not be possible without massive tech-heretical resources and extensive laboratories etc. So I don't think that crossbreeding through natural means would be possible.

One shouldn't try to include "scientific" reasonings to the feasibilities of human-eldar-crossbreeding - this is 40k after all.

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 12:54
I've updated the original image so that 'he' is now genderless. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/eldarew.jpg)

I kept the hair but who says it can't serve another purpose besides being decorative? It would probably have the consistency of very fine optical fiber...


A few issues with it.

1. Hair.
2. Head should be a bit more pointed and oval.
3. Warp eye should be higher on the forehead.
4. Neck is too long. Even for GW's Eldar or a human.
5. Legs... aren't quite digitigrade. Here's what digitigrade looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/WolfSkelLyd1.png

Note the back legs, they're what I'd structure Eldar legs similar to.

However, I don't actually suggest or request that you draw it; indeed I'd rather not.

I do hate excessively criticizing someone's work when the work itself is fine, but, suppose it tends to happen with concepts that aren't actually drawn out yet, since it takes description and correction to explain fully, and some particular details I've not really explained or specified.

Also, the height:
In combat an Eldar will hunch over and bend their legs; in this posture it is around seven feet tall. Outside of combat, it stands straight and the legs are barely bent; it measures closer to nine feet tall. This, paired with its thinness, makes it fairly disturbing for humans to look at them.

Lamhirh
24-04-2009, 18:22
A few issues with it.

1. Hair.
2. Head should be a bit more pointed and oval.
3. Warp eye should be higher on the forehead.
4. Neck is too long. Even for GW's Eldar or a human.
5. Legs... aren't quite digitigrade. Here's what digitigrade looks like:

1. Ditto
2. Done
3. Moved north
4. Shortened vertebrae
5. Made them more doglike
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/elza.jpg)

As an added bonus I also drew what a pregnant Eldar looks like ;). I'm a weird sci-fi kinda gal so it doesn't bother me, some posters however will probably feel like washing their eyes out with soap :D. I've always been of the opinion that if Eldar do have different sexes these are not permanent. In other words they are fully functional hermaphrodites with 3 phases: male, female and neuter so that any Eldar can be both a mother and a father depending on the circumstances. It would be common to have 2 eldar in the same phase fall in love, with one opting to shift into the opposite gender for procreation. That certainly turns the human notion of parenting on it's head...



I mean, come on, xenos lifeforms that are way more "advanced" physically and spiritually, and they'd still despise "primitive" lifeforms?

I absolutely agree. I have always held that if more eldar acted like the chieri they would be spot on. Before people dismiss chieri as peace lovers it is important to note that when frightened or angry they are extremely dangerous both physically and psychically. Even a young chieri can quickly overpower and even kill most humans but it is something they are loathe to do. They view humanity as primitive to some extent but tend to treat them more as wayward children than anything else.

kikkoman
24-04-2009, 19:19
You know, reading through this thread reminds me again just lame I always thought some of the eldar fluff to be..

I mean, come on, xenos lifeforms that are way more "advanced" physically and spiritually, and they'd still despise "primitive" lifeforms?


well, the fluff with the most hating is usually when...
- a ranger using his last breath to give a big "FU" to the inquisitor who's been playing with his internal organs.
It's kinda like yelling at a dog who's bitten/killing you. Or telling a damn dirty ape to get his paws off after he's lobotomized your friend.
- a space pirate who's trolling the humans on purpose, because he thinks it's funny.
- Eldrad, about to crush some army for the good of his people who he's dedicated to saving.
- non codex fluff I don't care about. (*Dark Heresy's got some terrific fluff though.)



To me, that sounds wayyy too "human-like" thinking, such naiveties. That kind of fluff is why IMO the eldar are just crystal-pooping glamrockers instead of something truly sophisticated and spiritual xenos like they ought to be.

hahah, but rockers are usually the spiritual/unconcerned types. Could you imagine David Bowie actually getting angry at someone? He's above such human frailties. :D
I figure the greater danger is trying to make them seem more spiritual/sophisticated, and failing, which then just makes them pompous and silly. The Dawn of War games is a shining example of this, it's like a horrible parody of what I thought Eldar were suppose to be.

You ever read the 2nd ed codex? Some fantastic fluff in there. What characterizes the Eldar best is when a guardian, walking into a blasted Imperial Shrine, sees a stained glass image of the Emperor still unbroken, and thinks "it's beautiful, I will remember this as it inspires my own artwork". He feels bad that all these people have died, but his main concern is fighting for his people's future. He doesn't hate humans, he hates Chaos.
then he goes and kills some cultists.

I think they get a lot more 'hateful' in 3ed since GW was concerned Eldar were too much "goodguys". Too many people writing EldarxImperium allied happy fanfiction with half breed children I figure, heheh.

Eldar can still legitimately hate on humans though, I just think of it more the kind of scorn an old man would have for hooligan youngin that won't get off his lawn (which he seeded 20,000 years ago). The Eldar will also not give your football back if it goes over their fence.

Every Eldar is a grizzled old man compared to a human. Over the centuries they've hardened their souls in the eternal war against chaos, they've seen far too many of their friends die on the battlefield. When some wrinkly little punk human, not even a century old, comes into your territory, talks down to you and your entire culture while incompetently unleashing chaos willy nilly, it's sure to inspire disdain.

Lamhirh
24-04-2009, 19:54
Every Eldar is a grizzled old man compared to a human. Over the centuries they've seen their friends die on the battlefield. When some wrinkly little punk human, not even a century old, comes into your territory, talks down to you and your entire culture and why your stupid old race is obsolete, it's sure to inspire disdain.

I imagine the really bitter Eldar are kinda like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJBslSZK6kc#t=0m54s) guy :D.

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 20:03
1. Ditto
2. Done
3. Moved north
4. Shortened vertebrae
5. Made them more doglike
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/elza.jpg)

Looks very nice :)

Proportions and sizes are a bit off from what I envision*, but still, looks great., and much better than GW's elves-in-space.

*Thighs shorter, feet/lower leg longer, ears close against head, third eye a tad larger. I might try my hand at adjusting it or doing a sketch, terrible though I may be at anything other than drafting :P

Lamhirh
24-04-2009, 20:28
Here you go. (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/eldar2.jpg)

Enkidu
24-04-2009, 20:34
see pic

YES! And thats a rifle any eldar would be proud of!

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 20:38
A few transform changes for proportion, eye size, and thinner overall body. (http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr157/ZahrDalsk/EldarAdjusted.png) Granted the difference is minuscule, just a couple things that nagged at me.

(Also, I've been making changes beyond what I posted on Page 3, but I'll update those later. Cultural and technological adjustments as well as internal biology; the appearance is finalized.)

Brother Xeron
25-04-2009, 11:00
So whats the general idea should they concieve..would the offspring be good bad or just plain ugly??

Brother Xeron

Poseidal
25-04-2009, 11:34
So whats the general idea should they concieve..would the offspring be good bad or just plain ugly??

Brother Xeron

Completely psycho.

They chuckle when they see others in pain, and love nothing more than slicing someone open and seeing the raw, red flesh before the blood starts gushing.

Hmm, that could be any Eldar if they're not kept in check.

Hellebore
25-04-2009, 11:40
If you are going to go that far, why bother with different sexes? Why not have them just psychically grow a baby out of wraithbone?

Also, the foetus could gestate in the lower back rather than the lower abodomen*. The only reason it does there in earth animals is due to developmental biological limitations.
(*Or in a box).

They could drop their leg and have it produce an entirely new individual. Without traditional DNA they don't follow the same rules that animals subject to environmental pressures.

Hellebore

Vote Kantor
25-04-2009, 12:03
(*Or in a box).

was that a monty python quote?

On topic: those scetches are awesome, Zahr, great job, but where is the spirit stone on the scetch. If they are wraithbone anyway, it should just be there, or implanted by a bonesinger at an early age

Zahr Dalsk
25-04-2009, 17:24
Why not have them just psychically grow a baby out of wraithbone?


That is what I went with. They are genderless, and simply develop a womb inside of which the new Eldar develops. The womb is required because an Eldar during the first two terran months (the period before they are born) is extremely fragile, and developing it inside of another Eldar is the easiest way to keep it safe. As Eldar do not have DNA, the new Eldar's form is not determined by DNA but rather by the soul of the parent.

The new Eldar already knows most everything the parent knew; it requires no education, simply time to reach the adult stage, similar to Orks. (It's somewhat akin to waking up from sleep, except they take around two terran years to wake up.) The Old Ones designed them that way so that small groups of Eldar, or indeed even a single Eldar, could, if necessary, easily re-populate an area if they were forced into hiding or cut off from the rest of the Eldar. Eldar do not have families in the biological sense; they will often form close groups based on other things, such as fellow Aspect Warriors or fellow crew on a ship. There is no close relationship between a parent Eldar and the child. The parent (or another Eldar) simply keeps an eye on the child until it reaches maturity.

Indeed Eldar Pirates have quite a good birth rate, as do Dark Eldar, though what with the constant fighting their numbers tend not to change much overall (lots of them are born, but lots of them are getting killed). Craftworld Eldar, due to superior equipment and tactics, have extremely low casualty rates, yet for some reason they reproduce very rarely, and thus are far less common than the other two Eldar variants. (very few are getting born, but very few are getting killed).


On topic: those scetches are awesome, Zahr, great job, but where is the spirit stone on the scetch. If they are wraithbone anyway, it should just be there, or implanted by a bonesinger at an early age

I didn't make the sketches; Lamhirh did. I just tweaked the last one a small bit. Anyways, as to the stone, and its exact purpose, I'm still contemplating that; I'll come up with an exact decision later. It will serve a different purpose in each of the three Eldar groups, though (Pirates and Exodites, Dark Eldar, Craftworld and Harlequin), as will their third eye.

Vote Kantor
26-04-2009, 01:08
ok thanks, Good job /Lamhirh/

SimonL
26-04-2009, 01:23
Some interesting re-imagining of the Eldar here...

http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__13_Eldar.shtml

Lamhirh
26-04-2009, 04:29
So whats the general idea should they conceive..would the offspring be good bad or just plain ugly??

Brother Xeron

The most recent example was described as an "...eerily beautiful child, half human and half eldar." Make of that what you will. By all accounts they possess a blend of features but seem to favor the xenos side of the family tree in looks and temperament. We don't know exactly how their inherent psyker powers would manifest though, they could turn out like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF_VDo_br9s).

kikkoman
27-04-2009, 20:51
I imagine the really bitter Eldar are kinda like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJBslSZK6kc#t=0m54s) guy :D.

that's the kind of burning, restless soul you put in wraithlords.

Col. Tartleton
27-04-2009, 23:02
I have a bizarre idea inspired from all this. Post corporal life. I'm totally creating a species like that for the short story I'm about to set out on writing (I just bought several Dune novels, Lovecraft Compilations, and an unabridged version of The Stand [not related]. I hadn't read any of them and I knew they were kind of influential if I was going to work on some fiction.Now I can get some additional insight into good science fiction fantasy stuff as I work on it. Go April Vacation!)

It will be a race of body less consciousnesses that reside within the material (a wraith-bone/Necrodermis material) of their own building long ago. The material is going to allow for the species to have the whole eldar/necron liquid metal thing. Material will be described as dancing over the skin while still being solid but able to flex like its soft as it changes its bonds in accord to the wearer. There is no wearer of course, but the humans don't know this at first. The entire entity is within the material. Their entire civilization will be made of the material and they can move through it. They are all one body with different souls. They can detach from the body and assume their form but they will eventually rejoin the great body. The ships are commanded within the ships. However they are limited in size because they only can control so much of the material with their consciousness. Larger constructs like vehicles and even war vessels contain dozens or even millions of them. When they invade they land the "ship" and then it deteriorates into a million individuals. Obviously the idea will be more fleshed out, but this "eldar" concept here is a good launch point for new aliens. I can easily imagine an eldarine race startle a human as it reforms its stern stylized helmet into a softer featured humanoid face to communicate with them. The human would presume the "armor" was simple sliding back to reveal the face beneath. Little would they know both were the creature and neither were it also.