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View Full Version : The new best skimmer army in the game is the Imperial Guard



Frankie Chan
23-04-2009, 16:21
It's amazing to consider that, by now, if you want to play the best skimmer army, you dont play Eldar, nor Dark Eldar, or even Tau, you play Imperial Guard.

I mean, for 140 pts you have a fast skimmer, 12/12/10 Armour, 3 TL Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters and a Transport capacity of 12 that you can put in squadrons.

I feel it worth way better than the Falcon, the Wave Serpent, The Hammerhead of even Two Vipers w/ Brightlances who are still more expensive than the vendetta.

And for 110 points, if you can have either a Wave Serpent w/ Twin link Shuriken Cannon and another Shuriken Cannon, Or a Valkyrie with 2 Heavy Bolter, a Multi Laser, and Two Battle cannon shots. With one you will take?

And I don't even want to talk about the Devilfish.

I know, that each unit in an army work in conjunction and synergy with the rest of the amry, maybe transporting guardmen to front don't worth it that much, but...

You know, before that new release. I dismisssed all talk about "power escalation" from each new codex...

But this time, I must join the chorus of those who believe that there is in this new guard codex some design decisions made to promote and sell guard army / new models.

Another example: Imperial "normal human" Psyker laugh out loud at Chaos "marine" sorcerers with their puny Doombolt, or even the Daemonic Gaze of the Daemons Legions when they can unleash the might of the Lightning Arc (F6 Ap5, 24" Assault 2D6). Join to chaos to get a solid decrease of power.

The new IG codex make me feel a little bad, I mean IG is one of my armies. I used a Primaris Psyker with the old codex (old puny psyker w/ Honorifica Imperialis) and I wanted to put My HQ squad in a valkyrie and I will still do, as I just want to convert my actual army to the new codex, planning only to buy one Valkyrie. But right now I have the real feeling the this next codex, on many aspects, will put the guard on the top food chain, and in a big way.

aberrant_unc
23-04-2009, 16:26
Give it a few weeks. People said the same thing about the new space marine codex and while it is very competitive, it didn't break the game or anything.

Frankie Chan
23-04-2009, 16:27
To be fair, there is two points where I feel the guard is weaker.

- Leadership. No more Fantasy-Like aura of command, no more doctrines to boost moral, and all things who give a chance to increase moral are really expensives (commissars, priests, army banners are all very exepnsive for what they do) and Seniors commanders will have to be really near of broken units to make them rally.

- Tanks cost. With the notable exception of Chimera, all guard tanks are more expensive than before, especially all the Russ variants. Well with the lumbering rule, I suppose that this is fair. But if a player want to put squadrons and squadons of tanks, he will not have that much of them.

dooombot
23-04-2009, 16:28
don't feel bad about it, just be glad that normal humans will be on top of the fo ood chain as you put it. It's a big galaxy, full of xenos and heretics, so it's time to get killing!

For the Emperor!

tuebor
23-04-2009, 16:35
I think the big disadvantage the Valkyrie/Vendetta has is its gigantic size. It's larger than a Baneblade and has an extremely tall flying base. On the vast majority of tables it will be extremely difficult to block LOS to it so it will get pounded. That's not to say that it's not cost effective, because I think both the Valkyrie and the Vendetta are good buys.

I also don't see many 9 Valk/Vendetta armies in the future either because it will be extremely difficult to even fit all that on the board.

BigBadBull
23-04-2009, 16:41
If you think it is bad now, Codex creep wise, just wait till the Tau and Eldar finally get their shake....
Hell by then the Hammerheads will be like 50pts and all the war gear will be free.lol ;)

Eldar grav tanks will get the special rule : Can't be Killed.... LOL

Codex Creep Gotta love it

Ravenous
23-04-2009, 16:41
Dont forget you can take 2 astropaths and outflank the whole army robbing your opponent of 2 turns if you play it right.


To be fair, there is two points where I feel the guard is weaker.

- Leadership. No more Fantasy-Like aura of command, no more doctrines to boost moral, and all things who give a chance to increase moral are really expensives (commissars, priests, army banners are all very exepnsive for what they do) and Seniors commanders will have to be really near of broken units to make them rally.

True but at the same time the standard leadership went up to 8 and with characters like chenkov and the ability to merge infantry squads stubborn is fairly cheap, really they only got worse against shooting.


- Tanks cost. With the notable exception of Chimera, all guard tanks are more expensive than before, especially all the Russ variants. Well with the lumbering rule, I suppose that this is fair. But if a player want to put squadrons and squadons of tanks, he will not have that much of them.

To be fair before this dex guard armies usually only ran 4 or 5 tanks total, now Ive been seeing armies that have 7 to 9 tanks (not all russ variants obviously) and that isnt including the valks.

Grazzy
23-04-2009, 16:45
I will be interested to see how the guard aircav army fares in tournaments. I think it will be powerful but people will get used to it and it will become a more regular (power) army.

1. It costs a lot which will limit the no. of armies
2. The size of the transports has been underestimated

sabreu
23-04-2009, 16:46
hehe. Even though it has a big flyer base, it still abides by the normal skimmer rules. All you gotta do is assaulty the base and it goes kapoof!

MrBims
23-04-2009, 16:46
I find it funny that you try to compare the Vendetta to a Falcon and a Wave Serpent without even taking into account the existence of holo-fields and energy fields.

tuebor
23-04-2009, 16:53
hehe. Even though it has a big flyer base, it still abides by the normal skimmer rules. All you gotta do is assaulty the base and it goes kapoof!

The big problem with its extra tall flying base is that it's going to be flying well above the vast majority of LOS blocking terrain that any place I've played at has had and given the threat they pose they'll attract more than enough firepower to put them down, especially the Vendetta which won't be moving fast enough to get the SMF cover save so it can use its nice firepower.

Note that I'm not trying to suggest that they're underpowered or anything, I'm saying that they're not game-breakingly awesome.

sabreu
23-04-2009, 16:58
tuebor, excellent points! However, methinks I'm going to see alot of 'grounded' valks (no stands at all) coming out by the less than admirable players. Anyone else agree?

StraightSilver
23-04-2009, 17:11
Well technically by the rules they will be cheating if they take their Valks off the flying stands, as the rules are quite specific about all models being mounted on the stands provided.

I believe that only tau skimmers are able to land using the landing gear wargear item.

Taking the Valk off it's stand though would then mean that it loses a lot of other advantages (line of sight to entire battlefield).

tuebor
23-04-2009, 17:12
tuebor, excellent points! However, methinks I'm going to see alot of 'grounded' valks (no stands at all) coming out by the less than admirable players. Anyone else agree?

It wouldn't surprise me, but I know players where I live wouldn't tolerate it. With the inherent disadvantage of the gigantic base it's pretty balanced for its points. If it get 4+ cover saves (or even completely blocked LOS, although it's so huge it's hard to hide) on a regular basis it would be too good.

totgeboren
23-04-2009, 17:14
I think the rulebook says skimmers must be fielded on their flying base unless they are immobilized or has some for of rule that allows them to land (like the tau skimmers)?

that would make the 'grounded' valks illegal atleast. :)

Captain Micha
23-04-2009, 17:21
Valkyries are disgustingly large. Baneblade sized.

It's only Av12 with no Serpent Field nor Holofield to protect it.

Sure it's better than Tau stuff, but it still isn't as good as Eldar tech.

(But then pretty much everything is better than Tau so really should this be surprising?)

Max Jet
23-04-2009, 17:21
Of course everything will change as soon as the new Tau codex will appear, but until that. They deserve it! Hell the imperial guard deserves it! They have been running aroung with underpowered lists and units for soo long and even now I think they are far away from being overpowered, this is a title I would always give to the eldar.
Same with Orks.. who cares if they beat my gaunts any time of the day, hte have been running around with a weak list for so long! They deserve to be powerful as long as other codicies aren't renewed.
The Valkyrie itself is quite an astounding vehicle but how much actually will this thing achieve in mid game? How dangerous can it be to park 12 stupid guardsmen in front of your lines, comparing to 10 Fire warriors?
And on the top of it, it is much easier to point out, while a devilfish can always hide.
Just let it be.. I don't mind if the Imperial Guard can take out some armies easily, it's o.k with me after all these years where I had to take out powerful units from my list, so that the game actually is fun.

x-esiv-4c
23-04-2009, 17:22
That is all assuming that the box doesn't come with 2 different stands :D

Madgear Thundaklutch
23-04-2009, 17:29
I think the big disadvantage the Valkyrie/Vendetta has is its gigantic size. It's larger than a Baneblade and has an extremely tall flying base. On the vast majority of tables it will be extremely difficult to block LOS to it so it will get pounded.

I also don't see many 9 Valk/Vendetta armies in the future either because it will be extremely difficult to even fit all that on the board.


Valkyries are disgustingly large. Baneblade sized.




I was at a GW yesterday that had one assembled, it really isnt much bigger than a Land Raider. I have the body of a FW Valk and the plastic one is a bit smaller.

MrMojoZ
23-04-2009, 17:31
Codex Creep Gotta love it

All that codex creep and the IG are way more powerful than what armies with current codexs? None? Pretty bad example of codex creep.

Captain Micha
23-04-2009, 17:31
Max Jet: just want to point out the new Ride Of The Valkyries tactic that I came up with, involves vets with triple plasma..... carapace armor and Valkyries... It's actually more effective than Fish of Fury. (Which is all but neutered and worthless now anyway)


Size of a monolith then? (bigger than a raider smaller than Superheavy) Even at Monolith size it's hard to hide behind stuff, and that's not mentioning it's really tall base.

StraightSilver
23-04-2009, 17:32
It comes with one lardge stand, but you can put the Valk on it in two different ways depending on which way around you put it.

Putting it on backwards angles the nose of the Valk down making it's weapons closer to the board.

Putting it on the other way around allows you to mount the Valk highter up.

Pokpoko
23-04-2009, 17:35
Well technically by the rules they will be cheating if they take their Valks off the flying stands, as the rules are quite specific about all models being mounted on the stands provided.

it was "bases provided" if i recall:p so it's perfectly okay to put the valk about one cm over the base,right?

Marneus Calgar
23-04-2009, 17:44
IG skimmers have more punch, Xeno skimmers have more survivability. Guard are a really bad example of codex creep. If you would like a good example of codex creep, please refer to the Ork codex. I have a strange feeling that IG are going to be one of those 'oops' codex's which gets left behind.

Captain Micha
23-04-2009, 17:48
IG skimmers have more punch, Xeno skimmers have more survivability. Guard are a really bad example of codex creep. If you would like a good example of codex creep, please refer to the Ork codex. I have a strange feeling that IG are going to be one of those 'oops' codex's which gets left behind.

Considering that's what the last one and the one before it were?

tuebor
23-04-2009, 17:55
I was at a GW yesterday that had one assembled, it really isnt much bigger than a Land Raider. I have the body of a FW Valk and the plastic one is a bit smaller.

I was basing it on these pictures from one of the IG rumour summaries.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54079&d=1236666086

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54080&d=1236666086

Even if its a bit smaller than the FW Valk (which is what is used in those pictures) the wings and tail stick out far enough to make it quite difficult to hide.

sliganian
23-04-2009, 18:11
Give it a few weeks. People said the same thing about the new space marine codex and while it is very competitive, it didn't break the game or anything.

:D Agreed.

Yeah folks, let's go through the last 6-7 years or so...

When Tau were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. S5 basic weapons? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When Necrons were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Armour 14 deep striking pyramids? WBB? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When the latest Tyranids were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Six Monstrous Creatures? An infiltrating group of Genestealers? OMG! What is GW thinking?

Meh. I'd go on but I'm tired of reposting the same thing over and over again. Oh... wait... :rolleyes:

The Old Scholar
23-04-2009, 18:25
At $60 a pop, I'm not sure how many of these things we will see from one player at a time... Seriously, how many of these things will it take to make a truly formidable force that includes all the necessary units to present a well-rounded, all-comers list?
Players that have never seen any of these in game before will likely get into some trouble the first few times, but after a while they will wisen up. Players owning them will probably have a few dirty tricks, but soon, I feel, only the most die-hard theme-based army list players will stick with a predominantly Valkyrie/Vendetta lists and will instead return to more commonly seen lists including Leman Russ' and Chimeras.
Anyway, I'm still very happy with my Wave Serpents. The Guard can have their fliers; it's good and fine.

Vedar
23-04-2009, 18:31
I see Valks being used for gunboats more than transports and possibly starting in reserve. They cost as much as Eldar transport but can't survive as well. They will be high priority targets that will be hard to get into cover. Squadrons will be a poor choice as they will blow up on a pen 4+ and a glance 6.

What I think will be scary is the amount of armor they are going to field. 10+ vehicle are going to be hard to deal with. Can you make an all comers list to deal with the green tide and mech guard? That is pretty hard to do.

BuFFo
23-04-2009, 18:34
Sup Skraggers,

At 60 bucks a pop, my friend is going to cry when his 180 dollar, 390 point unit drops out of the sky by my 105 point Ravager.

Wait...

He proxied a list like this three days ago, and found out squadrons have to shoot at the same target, so he blew up one Ravager, and in turn got his Squadron shot down by a second Ravager, thanks to two Immobilized results and one destroyed result.

He is now rethinking wasting money on transports which are less survivable than my Ravager, or at the very least, only taking three and not squadroning them, halting his idea for nine of them.

sabreu
23-04-2009, 18:41
You know, I am kinda liking the comparison we are starting to see:

IG Skimmers: Vehicles hit harder, have heavier armour but less survivable
Tau: About mid range from above and below
Eldar: Fast, hit hard, maneuoverable, less armour but more survivable

kikkoman
23-04-2009, 18:44
You know, I am kinda liking the comparison we are starting to see:

IG Skimmers: Vehicles hit harder, have heavier armour but less survivable
Tau: About mid range from above and below
Eldar: Fast, hit hard, maneuoverable, less armour but more survivable

don't forget their transport capacity, that's a huuuge difference.

Sure, a vendetta has 3 lascannons
but a falcon functionally has 6 meltaguns :D

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 18:48
It's amazing to consider that, by now, if you want to play the best skimmer army, you dont play Eldar, nor Dark Eldar, or even Tau, you play Imperial Guard.


No if you want to play an army with the best hover vehicles you play Eldar, Dark Eldar or Tau. If you want to play an army with aircraft you play Imperial Guard.

The reason the Valkyrie is so much better then say a Devilfish is the fact it's a ******* plane, sure it has skimmer rules but that's only through necessity.

Also a Valkyrie is still a LOT less better then say a wave skimmer. A wave skimmer reduces hits to S8, doesn't allow 2D6, can take all that other Eldar Trickery but has less weapons.



The new IG codex make me feel a little bad, I mean IG is one of my armies. I used a Primaris Psyker with the old codex (old puny psyker w/ Honorifica Imperialis) and I wanted to put My HQ squad in a valkyrie and I will still do, as I just want to convert my actual army to the new codex, planning only to buy one Valkyrie. But right now I have the real feeling the this next codex, on many aspects, will put the guard on the top food chain, and in a big way.

Having played a few games with the new codex I can honestly say we're good but we're not THAT good. Played a 3000 point game of IG & Eldar vs IG and Marines, Mech IG vs Hoarde IG. Good targetting and bringing strength to a point allowed me to pick apart my opponent's list, though when the Marine player or Guard player struck back I still took heavy casualties.

Also the Primaris Psyker isn't that good imo, the Psyker Choir has some of the best powers in the game however it is like 9 Psykers combined.

sabreu
23-04-2009, 18:57
don't forget their transport capacity, that's a huuuge difference.

Sure, a vendetta has 3 lascannons
but a falcon functionally has 6 meltaguns :D

True, true. But that's more of a discussion on synergy. I was trying to stick to a straight skimmer by skimmer comparison! :p

Dach
23-04-2009, 19:46
And for 110 points, if you can have either a Wave Serpent w/ Twin link Shuriken Cannon and another Shuriken Cannon, Or a Valkyrie with 2 Heavy Bolter, a Multi Laser, and Two Battle cannon shots. With one you will take?

wrong... ordnance =/= isn't automatically large blast. These missiles are only hunter-killer with 2d6 take best for armor-penetration.

and like a lot of people already said, comparing eldar skimmer without a word about energy field or holo-field isn't right...

do valkyries even have an option for extra armor?

Maine
23-04-2009, 20:15
The reason the Valkyrie is so much better then say a Devilfish is the fact it's a ******* plane, sure it has skimmer rules but that's only through necessity.


Consider: Valkyries are skimmers in Epic, not flyers.

I wouldn't want to use a Valkyrie as a flyer normally - MUST move 36" away, MUST come in from reserves? That goes against their actual purpose and use - which is more like a transport or assault helicopter.

I'd go so far as to say they have FLYER rules only because Forgeworld wanted to make them more desirable.

RichBlake
23-04-2009, 20:20
I'd go so far as to say they have FLYER rules only because Forgeworld wanted to make them more desirable.

Umm they have the Fyler rules because they are planes, and planes fly...

Col. Tartleton
23-04-2009, 20:38
They're helicopter equivalents which means they're high skimmers.

Their average altitude is probably similar to a Devilfish (Read Tau Tanks). Eldar tanks however have total AG and thus can fly in space if they want to.

So a human low altitude flier is to a Tau a run of the mill battle tank in terms of mobility. The Eldar tank is even better.

I mean the difference between a MBT and a Attack Helicopter in terms of speed and maneuverability is kind of a lot. So that's how much more agile alien stuff is. Not that its better because we have more Valkyries then they have men ;).

evilsponge
23-04-2009, 20:54
One model doesn't make IG a skimmer army, not in my eyes. The wave serpent IMO is still a superior skimmer. Plus you have to factor the cost for that many Valks will keep the number of IG skimmer armies you see on the table top to a pretty low number

chinnfrequent
23-04-2009, 20:56
do valkyries even have an option for extra armor?

They come with it by default.

Maine
23-04-2009, 22:08
Umm they have the Fyler rules because they are planes, and planes fly...

Then why, in a system that GW themselves made, that has rules for flyers (Epic) are they presented as skimmers only? Many would say Epic more properly represents the units, vehicles, and styles of the various armies than standard 40K itself.

What really makes them different from Eldar or Tau skimmers, or Landspeeders? Those same skimmers can 'fly' just as well as a Valkyrie. Would you argue they are fliers?

Valkyries are Flyers only because whomever wrote the rules for them at FW wanted to make them more than just skimmers. Only FW rules present them as fliers - two other rules sources now cite them as skimmers only. They don't actually work out too well as Flyers on the tabletop though - more survivable but less able to concentrate firepower; fortunately they have Hover Mode (in FW rules) and so can choose to operate as a Skimmer.

noobzor
23-04-2009, 22:10
Umm, the wave serpent has most of that, AND makes everything S8 and up S8, AND ignores melta and ordinance, for the same cost or less. Nuff said.

zoodog
23-04-2009, 22:12
I find it funny that you try to compare the Vendetta to a Falcon and a Wave Serpent without even taking into account the existence of holo-fields and energy fields.

I think most people would agree that the non-holofield falcon is notable overcosted though and to some extent the same for the non-disruptor devilish. It is pretty sloppy to overcost a tank and undercost the upgrades.

Marneus Calgar
23-04-2009, 22:17
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Valkyrie/Vedetta are a fast attack choice. Therefore they compete against some of the best options in the new guard codex such as Rough Riders, Hellhounds, Bane Wolves, Devil Dog, and Sentinels (both light and heavy). The WS is a dedicated transport, so it does not compete with a FoC slot, which is huge.

Edit: Still believing that they are fast attack choice, why in the world did Robbin Cruddace not make them a dedicated transport?

Frep
23-04-2009, 22:22
Thats true, with the ability of dedicated transports to act as taxis for everyone in the army now, the wave serpent has a big advantage. I find it funny that the imperial guard the "sledge hammer" of the imperium has perhaps the best fast attack of any imperial faction.

Walls
23-04-2009, 23:06
They'll die in droves in assaults. Nob (biker or not) units with a buncha powerklaws will win by sheer attrition. If someone is bringing a drove of them into a game, then all you really have to do is immobilize one to get it destroyed.

They got a whole buncha firepower, but really... they aren't any more survivable then any other big vehicle.

I'll take my 2 chimeras instead, thankyouverymuch

zeep
23-04-2009, 23:56
wrong... ordnance =/= isn't automatically large blast. These missiles are only hunter-killer with 2d6 take best for armor-penetration.


Does it specifically say it is not large blast? Otherwise pg 58 says it is. I have not seen the rules yet, but this is not a case of "permissive ruling".

Gensuke626
24-04-2009, 00:07
Does it specifically say it is not large blast? Otherwise pg 58 says it is. I have not seen the rules yet, but this is not a case of "permissive ruling".

Well...page 58 says that "Unless the profile states otherwise, all ordnance blast weapons use the large blast marker", emphasis mine. The missiles in question are just ordnance, not Ordnance Blast.

Marneus Calgar
24-04-2009, 00:23
Well...page 58 says that "Unless the profile states otherwise, all ordnance blast weapons use the large blast marker", emphasis mine. The missiles in question are just ordnance, not Ordnance Blast.

It also says that you cannot fire any other weapon when you fire an ordnance weapon, not even defensive weapons. This means you can fire only 1 missile a turn. It's pretty lame. I will stick to the rocket pods.

TheDarkDuke
24-04-2009, 00:28
Doom and Gloom! Yet the release date has not yet even happened... strange.

Lets take the simplest and most revealing facts. IG may have the best points costed skimmer, but not the most survivable. Now lets check in with your theory of transporting. IG transport units that are far less better then what Eldar, DE and Tau can transport. So I think its time to sit down, quiet down and put your diaper away.

Johnnyfrej
24-04-2009, 00:28
Sure, a vendetta has 3 lascannons
but a falcon functionally has 6 meltaguns :D
Sure then Vendetta only has 3 TL Lascannons...
Then you add in the 3 Meltaguns, a S10 Demo Charge and a squad of 10 Meltabombs. All for around the same cost as your Falcon/Dragon combo.

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 01:00
Max Jet: just want to point out the new Ride Of The Valkyries tactic that I came up with, involves vets with triple plasma..... carapace armor and Valkyries...

With respect Micha you didn't really come up with that. Putting veterans with three plasma guns in valkyries is incredibly obvious. It's like reading the rules for Vanguard + Heroic Intervention and saying "I came up with the idea of deep striking and then assaulting with them in the same turn!". Sure, but I can guarantee about a million other people instantly thought of the exact same thing. You can take some credit for the name I suppose.

RichBlake
24-04-2009, 01:55
They're helicopter equivalents which means they're high skimmers.


No they are planes that can hover, like Harriers, not flying vehicles that use rotary blades...like helicopters.



Then why, in a system that GW themselves made, that has rules for flyers (Epic) are they presented as skimmers only? Many would say Epic more properly represents the units, vehicles, and styles of the various armies than standard 40K itself.


Probably to represent the fact that in the large scheme of things, a zoomed out view, the Valkyrie's ability to hover is more important then the ability to fly. Also the fact that Epic is a little older then 40K and therefore doesn't represent the modern ideas surrounding the Valkyrie's role possibly.


What really makes them different from Eldar or Tau skimmers, or Landspeeders? Those same skimmers can 'fly' just as well as a Valkyrie. Would you argue they are fliers?

Because Eldar Skimmers are Tanks that can fly, not planes that can hover.

An Eldar tank's ability to fly is generally a secondary thing in vanilla 40K because it's being used as a tank, not a plane, in the battle. However for a Valkyrie it's ability to hover in one spot is secondary to it's ability to fly.

Pedantic maybe but important, to me flying Eldar grav tanks are represented well in Apocalypse datasheets, specifically the one that allows falcons to fly but sacrifice shooting to fly.


Valkyries are Flyers only because whomever wrote the rules for them at FW wanted to make them more than just skimmers. Only FW rules present them as fliers - two other rules sources now cite them as skimmers only. They don't actually work out too well as Flyers on the tabletop though - more survivable but less able to concentrate firepower; fortunately they have Hover Mode (in FW rules) and so can choose to operate as a Skimmer.

I disagree, even looking at the model it looks more like a plane then a helicopter, it looks desgined to "fly" not to "skim" the ground. I'd argue the only reason it ISN'T a flyer in the new codex was to keep flyer rules out of vanilla 40K, otherwise they'd have had it as a flyer. It has extra armour imo mainly to make it harder to actually stop moving as it's a plane for example.

Phazael
24-04-2009, 02:48
Expect the real whining to start when people start stuffing allied GK terminator squads into the things.....

MrBims
24-04-2009, 02:55
Expect the real whining to start when people start stuffing allied GK terminator squads into the things.....

Yes, because the best place to put a valuable melee unit is inside an AV12 skimmer, not an AV14 Landraider that they can assault out of. Smashing great idea.

Gensuke626
24-04-2009, 02:56
I think that putting GK termies into a Valk is a waste of a Valk, personally...

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 03:13
THere are a few things that I think should NEVER be considered when looking at 'balance' in units:

A) Cost. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean you can 'balance' it's rules with that in mind: "Oh the new tau battldroid is $90 so we can make it absolutely sick because no one could afford it" is a really STUPID thing to do.

B) Appearance/Size. With Pseudotrue line of sight that 5th ed has, the appearence of a model has a big impact on its survivability in the game. This is stupid. Size categories remove this and make all vehicels follow the same rules (varied between skimmers and ground vehicles). The size of a vehicle MODEL should only have an impact in the game if it is an abstract size not a literal one. I can garauntee GW didn't factor in the diminutive size of gretchin into their cost, nor the giant size of tau battlesuits. You can't because it relies on terrain, which will be different for everyone.

You should compare rules to rules because that is what the model is being represented by. GW just decided it would be 'smart' to remove physical model representation from their rules and just say whatever.


Monetary value especially is not a valid 'balancing' point. It simply says the richer you are the more likely you'll be able to build the best army list to defeat everyone. This game isn't (or shouldn't) be about who has the biggest wallet.

Hellebore

xinsanityx
24-04-2009, 03:25
:D Agreed.

Yeah folks, let's go through the last 6-7 years or so...

When Tau were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. S5 basic weapons? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When Necrons were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Armour 14 deep striking pyramids? WBB? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When the latest Tyranids were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Six Monstrous Creatures? An infiltrating group of Genestealers? OMG! What is GW thinking?

Meh. I'd go on but I'm tired of reposting the same thing over and over again. Oh... wait... :rolleyes:

Yeah and you forgot about the orks which everyone complained about and they DID break the game.

You also conveniently forgot about the dual lash of submission lists which people really complained about and they also broke the game.

These are the two lists that consistently win tournaments and place in the top 5 that were complained about like crazy and turned out to be very effective yet you conveniently forgot them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How about when Eldar came out in 4th edition and everyone went crazy over the power of Falcons? Another thing people complained about that actually did break the game for awhile, yet it was conveniently left out of your list. Completely dishonest.

I will agree that the complaints we heard about many of those armies you listed were unwarrented, but to completely omit armies that were complained about and actually did break the game is just dishonest.

There are armies that everyone thought would break the game (like space marines) that turned out to be pretty balanced, and there were also armies (like the 4th edition eldar) that everyone complained about and ended up being right about. So making the argument "well people said *insert army here* would be Uber Cheddarz and it wasn't" is just a flat argument, because the community has been right as many times as they've been wrong.

I think this time the community will be proven right.

Solar_Eclipse
24-04-2009, 03:27
You can take some credit for the name I suppose.

I doubt it, i remember him giving me Kudos when i referred to it as thus :P

Anyway, who cares?



No they are planes that can hover, like Harriers, not flying vehicles that use rotary blades...like helicopters.

Valkyries and Vultures are present in Aeronautica Imperialis as flying vehicles, they have a low speed and altitude, but can still dogfight just like any other aircraft.

Inquisitor Engel
24-04-2009, 04:16
Nine 12/12/10 vehicles is nothing when you have a potential 9 Str 10 AP 1, twin-linked shots coming your way. If I have my way they'll be hitting on 2+ too.

I play Tau, if you didn't notice. ;)

Gensuke626
24-04-2009, 04:26
Yeah and you forgot about the orks which everyone complained about and they DID break the game.

You also conveniently forgot about the dual lash of submission lists which people really complained about and they also broke the game.

These are the two lists that consistently win tournaments and place in the top 5 that were complained about like crazy and turned out to be very effective yet you conveniently forgot them. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How about when Eldar came out in 4th edition and everyone went crazy over the power of Falcons? Another thing people complained about that actually did break the game for awhile, yet it was conveniently left out of your list. Completely dishonest.

I will agree that the complaints we heard about many of those armies you listed were unwarrented, but to completely omit armies that were complained about and actually did break the game is just dishonest.

There are armies that everyone thought would break the game (like space marines) that turned out to be pretty balanced, and there were also armies (like the 4th edition eldar) that everyone complained about and ended up being right about. So making the argument "well people said *insert army here* would be Uber Cheddarz and it wasn't" is just a flat argument, because the community has been right as many times as they've been wrong.

I think this time the community will be proven right.

Having played against the new Guard Army, I think the community's fears are over-reactions. Valks are fairly easy to kill and while their weapon load out is impressive, they are not scoring units. The Guardsmen who ride in them will more than likely be scoring units, but they're still guardsmen, and thus easy to kill for everyone, even other guard players. People who go Valk heavy will more than likely need to table their enemies to get wins in if their enemies are smart and try to take out scoring units quickly.

Nagash1959
24-04-2009, 05:06
I haven't gotten to actually play a game with the new rules yet, but I've read them over a few times. I have a question that I don't think anyone has brought up yet. Why are they two seperate squadrons instead of one with the choice to mix them up? My reasoning here is that one Vendetta leading two regular Valks would be a nice combination. Seeing as how that isn't gonna be possible I'm thinking of using two of them in my army. Swoop in, drop off some vets/Stormtroopers and missilepod the hell outta some other stuff.

TheOneWithNoName
24-04-2009, 06:12
... best options in the new guard codex such as Hellhounds, Bane Wolves, Devil Dog, and Sentinels (both light and heavy).

lol no. The Vendetta is arguably the best Fast Attack choice IG has now.

Solar_Eclipse
24-04-2009, 06:34
lol no. The Vendetta is arguably the best Fast Attack choice IG has now.

In a way, i would agree, but i think the Hellhound and Banewolf give the guard a very accurate and very dangerous attack, one which has almost no method of avoiding.

What can a Vendetta kill in a turn? A tank, very powerful, Can pop land raiders, can pop monoliths.

But what happens when it shoots at that marine squad in cover?

Not much

Banewolf would just tear that squad apart.

What happens when you fire at that Banshee squad which is dangerously close to your Command squad?

Not much again, but a Hellhound would be a really nice asset.

Its dangerous against very specific targets, but lacking in anti infantry at all.

Lord Wasa
24-04-2009, 14:42
lol no. The Vendetta is arguably the best Fast Attack choice IG has now.

I must say I don't agree. it has 3 twin-linked lascannons, sure, but in order to gain its vital 4+ save for moving fast, you have to give up shootin with two of those lascannons. also, it will be likely to attract massive fire, making it more hazardous to use it as a transport. in addition to this, having more than one in a squadron would be overkill, the only thing that justifies two or three vendettas shooting at it is perhaps a 'lith, a land raider or a superheavy.

I think I'll stick to my hellhounds or pehaps the valkyrie when it comes to best FA unit

EDIT: Ooopsie, as Poseidal pointed out, the vendetta (and valkyrie) has to give up all shooting in order to go flat out, thereby gaining a 4+ save

Poseidal
24-04-2009, 14:49
I must say I don't agree. it has 3 twin-linked lascannons, sure, but in order to gain its vital 4+ save for moving fast, you have to give up shootin with two of those lascannons. also, it will be likely to attract massive fire, making it more hazardous to use it as a transport. in addition to this, having more than one in a squadron would be overkill, the only thing that justifies two or three vendettas shooting at it is perhaps a 'lith, a land raider or a superheavy.

I think I'll stick to my hellhounds or pehaps the valkyrie when it comes to best FA unit
A slight correction, to gain the 4+ save it must give up shooting ALL of it's weapons.

petpetpetpet
24-04-2009, 17:05
Falcons are much better, unkillable with them damn holofields.

freddieyu
24-04-2009, 17:33
Falcons are much better, unkillable with them damn holofields.

One on one I agree, the falcon is better, and rightly so..but....

I have both IG and eldar, and the difference is that falcons are a HS slot, while valrkryies are a fast attack slot..

Anyway, comparison is a moot point on this...what I can say more accurately is that the IG is the best ANTI skimmer army (read Hydra batteries)..

noobzilla
29-04-2009, 15:02
I was planning on buying at least one Valkyrie, but after looking at the rules for the Vendettas and Valkyries, I decided not to buy one. They are overhyped and completely underwhelming. In order to get a cover save they have to move flat out, and one lucky lascannon will pop that sucker like none other, and Tau will have a field day with Str 10 weaponry. And you KNOW that since it's your brand new shiny toy, it's going down on turn one... Not fun, or cool at all.

Johnnyfrej
29-04-2009, 16:10
And you KNOW that since it's your brand new shiny toy, it's going down on turn one... Not fun, or cool at all.
Well, unless you Outflank with it of course.

Captain Micha
29-04-2009, 16:16
Then it kills -a- target and then goes down :D

The Valk/Vendetta doesn't really impress me all that much.

The Hounds are a much more reliable choice, as are Sentinels. (most people ignore sentinels anyway... even after they put lascannon rounds into a target)

I kaelis ra
29-04-2009, 16:51
I find it funny that you try to compare the Vendetta to a Falcon and a Wave Serpent without even taking into account the existence of holo-fields and energy fields. exacly add to that the huge size of the valkry(making it impossibble to hide)and it's low armour = superior eldar skimmers at speed/survivability and firepower (as it should be immo) meaning i'll stick to the trusty chimera's for my cadians at regular 40k games.I'll prolly get me 2 or 3 valkry's to field in appocalypse tho (using the flyer rules setup )but for a standard game there just to vulnerable immo (i mean as an eldar player they would be top priority target to me )

The Song of Spears
29-04-2009, 17:01
Why all the hate for Tau devil fish? The Disruption pod basically gives skimmer cover save for free out in the open, all you have to be is over 12" away, better than eldar wave serpents if you ask me.

Captain Micha
29-04-2009, 17:09
I've killed far more Devilfish in my day than Serpents.

I've also had more Devilfish go down than any other vehicle.

It's all fine and good till heavy weapons start shooting at craptastic side armor.

The Devilfish shouldn't even be brought up in these comparisons though since really the Tau aren't a viable army to start with.

tuebor
29-04-2009, 17:29
The Devilfish shouldn't even be brought up in these comparisons though since really the Tau aren't a viable army to start with.

They may not be on the same level as Eldar and Orks but Tau are certainly still a viable army.

Captain Micha
29-04-2009, 17:30
Tau aren't even on the level of Guard or marines. Sure if the Tau player is just that much better than you he'll win. but what army can't say that?

Otherwise Tau comes out of the gate gimped.

Orbital102
29-04-2009, 17:47
If you think it is bad now, Codex creep wise, just wait till the Tau and Eldar finally get their shake....

How many years off do we think that's going to be? And do we just not play till then? :)


I find it funny that you try to compare the Vendetta to a Falcon and a Wave Serpent without even taking into account the existence of holo-fields and energy fields.

It's only Av12 with no Serpent Field nor Holofield to protect it.

Survivability-wise, Eldar have the advantage.

In terms of points-cost, offensive power, number of skimmers that can be fielded, advantage goes to IG.

And, for what it's worth, AV12 is no Land Raider... but it's nothing to sneeze at, either.

infernus31
29-04-2009, 18:09
I think the Vendetta is a fab choice for Guard, it will do very well, and might be one of the best anti tank units the Guard have got. Outflanking out and popping three lascannons should at least stun something.

It is a very good fast attack but it still has to compete with rough riders, hellhound (varients) and sentinels all of which are perfectly acceptable and competitive.

I will take one maybe two (either that or a Valkyrie depends how much the FW conv kit is) and rough riders. For hurting hordes of troops Guard have heavy support and blast templates galore anyway!

Badger[Fr]
29-04-2009, 19:00
Is the Valkyrie the best skimmer in the whole game? Maybe. Is the IG the best skimmer army? Definitely not. No IG unit can match the firepower of Eldar Aspect Warriors, be it bladestorming Dire Avengers or guided Fire Dragons, nor the sheer effectiveness in close combat of an Archon retinue; the best IG players can come up with is a Veteran squad with 3 BS 4 Special Weapons.

Sure, cheap and efficient transports are a nice thing to have, but it's what you put inside them that will eventually matter.

Cadian 122nd
29-04-2009, 21:04
Why does no one take into account Tau disruption pods?
5 points for a 4+ coversave so long as you what is firing at the skimmer is 12"+ away

As for the Valk, it is average. A transport skimmer. I expect to be outflanking stormtroops or carapace veterans with it in my army. Targets of extermination are infantry, Havocs, devistators, etc. whatever doesnt like AP3, Plasma, and Meltas, and isnt in cover....but first. Fire the S6 multilaser as main weapon and S4 large blast as a defensive weapon. Instead of a chimera moving 12 and getting balled up with side armor 10, i "might" be able to get back in the valk, and move 24 for a cover save next turn. So long as no one sacrifices fireing at russes. Valks will not draw much fire from a smart commander, who knows thier lascannons(etc) are better utilized by shooting at the squadron of russes.

Sekhmet
29-04-2009, 21:27
Yes, because the best place to put a valuable melee unit is inside an AV12 skimmer, not an AV14 Landraider that they can assault out of. Smashing great idea.


I think that putting GK termies into a Valk is a waste of a Valk, personally...

First turn charges with 2 squads of GK Terminators isn't a waste, especially when those Valk/Vendettas are now free to fire their weapons. And considering how much cheaper they are than a Land Raider, I'd say they're worth it. They can even go back to your lines and pick up another squad for later in the game.

MrBims
29-04-2009, 22:14
First turn charges with 2 squads of GK Terminators isn't a waste, especially when those Valk/Vendettas are now free to fire their weapons. And considering how much cheaper they are than a Land Raider, I'd say they're worth it. They can even go back to your lines and pick up another squad for later in the game.

First turn charges? What? How do you manage to get a first turn charge from a vehicle that doesn't allow you to assault in the same turn that it moves?

Somerandomidiot
29-04-2009, 22:34
First turn charges? What? How do you manage to get a first turn charge from a vehicle that doesn't allow you to assault in the same turn that it moves?

As they stated earlier in the thread, you scout move the valk to just over 12" away, at the beginning of the first turn your terminators disembark 2" away, move 6", and are now just over 4" from whoever they wanted to charge. Since the tank moved in scouting and not on the first turn, they can jump out and assault since it's been still since the beginning of the turn.

40kdhs
30-04-2009, 00:06
It's slightly better than other skimmers because you can only shoot 1 main weapon if you move 12". It's tough to destroy all its weapons in 3 turns.

Soon enough, we are going to see some FW models from other armies to be introduced in the game. Aeronatica, anybody?

tuebor
30-04-2009, 03:12
Tau aren't even on the level of Guard or marines. Sure if the Tau player is just that much better than you he'll win. but what army can't say that?

Otherwise Tau comes out of the gate gimped.

Perhaps not on the level of new Guard or Marines but not much lower.

I think there are some serious differences in the metagame between where you live and where I live. Apparently you have no problem against Tau but struggle against Mech Eldar. I struggle against (suit-heavy) Tau but my Guardsmen beat on Mech Eldar like it's their job.

Gensuke626
30-04-2009, 03:54
First turn charges with 2 squads of GK Terminators isn't a waste, especially when those Valk/Vendettas are now free to fire their weapons. And considering how much cheaper they are than a Land Raider, I'd say they're worth it. They can even go back to your lines and pick up another squad for later in the game.

I've always considered GK Termies to be prohibitively expensive myself, much less 12 of them. This plan of getting first turn charges also relies on the idea that you'll get first player turn...

xinsanityx
30-04-2009, 04:55
For all those people that are saying that the Imperial Guard are not overpowered, and that everyone said the same thing about space marines but were wrong, I'd like to point you to 2 threads here on warseer. One thread is a poll asking whether Fantasy Vampire Counts are overpowered. The other is a poll asking whether Fantasy Daemons are overpowered.

If you know anything about Fantasy you're probably very familiar with the balance issues of these two armies, and are also aware that in every tournament in the past year, the top 10 was almost exclusively Daemons and Vampire counts. The two armies probably made up about 75% of all the top 10 finishes in tournaments last year. There is no denying that those 2 books are broken in the Fantasy world.

People are even holding special comp tournaments now that make the Vampire Counts and Daemons play at 2000 points, while every other army plays at 2250 or 2500 pts. Tournament organizers are actually starting to make them play at a points handicap because they're so overpowering!

Now, go ahead and click on these links to other warseer threads. In both of them less than 20% of the Warseer population were saying that the books were overpowered, the other ~80% were saying the same thing the rest of you are saying about the guard codex now. "just wait a few months" "people will see it's strong but not broken"

Those people were very wrong a year ago, and the people in this thread down playing the guard balance issues are wrong now.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149602&highlight=overpowered Poll on Daemons


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149834&highlight=overpowered Poll on Vampire counts

Pink Horror
30-04-2009, 05:31
So what are you saying? The people who voted in those polls messed up, so anyone saying calm down instead of whining must be wrong for all eternity?

xinsanityx
30-04-2009, 05:38
So what are you saying? The people who voted in those polls messed up, so anyone saying calm down instead of whining must be wrong for all eternity?

No, in fact i clearly say in the very last line that they are wrong NOW. Not for all eternity, but now.

My whole point, although i might have been to subtle, was that you can't base your argument on "well everyone said space marines would be the uber army and they were wrong" because i can make the same argument right back at you.

If you go and look at other posts that were made on Vampire counts and Demons months after their release you'll start to see a shift in public opinion about them. The only way we can figure out if the game has a problem is for people to post their opinions in threads like these. People need to stop calling for people to calm down just becasue they have legitimate concerns about how the game they love is being played. State your reasons for why the book is not overpowered, don't just rant about how you hate these threads, and post that everyone was wrong last time so they should just stop. That kind of argument doesn't further the discussion, and my post was meant to show that arguing that way is a dead end becuase both sides can make the exact same argument.

Pink Horror
30-04-2009, 06:30
But you could use the same argument forever. There is nothing special about now. So if it is valid now, why isn't it valid later? You're using two possible mistakes in the fantasy forum to invalidate an opinion in the 40k forum, just because both are about power. Well, there is always plenty of outrage about the new codex being broken. Those people are well-represented. You're not giving any reasons with that last comment, either. You're just saying: Warseer messed up. So we should waste our time with alarmist junk before the book even gets used for a month.

And people's opinions are not how we learn about problems with the game. Results are. The argument doesn't really work your way, because it still doesn't make the concerns legitimate. Talking about it doesn't do any good until you get to that situation where an army starts dominating everyone else. Nothing else is going to prove people's points. There are plenty of things to discuss in the new book - tons of rules interactions that did not exist before. But trying to figure out power, on paper, before much of the world has an experience with it, is just too hard for the community to do. That difficulty is demonstrated with the Space Marines and with the fantasy armies. So you can't really use it both ways. Either way you look at it, it says: don't make up your mind yet.

nexttothemoon
30-04-2009, 06:35
If we are now discussing overpowered/broken armies in 40K and relating that to power lists and tournament results... in the current 4th ed to 5th ed transition environment... Orks and Chaos Daemons of all armies seem to do better than all other codexes in the various tournament results. Just look at tournament results over the last 12 months for proof.

I don't see many people on the forums jumping up and down saying Daemons are broken though. Many consider them to be one of the weaker codexes, yet they perform very well in many tournaments.

There's often a huge variation between "perceptions & theory" versus practical empirical results. IG may be more powerful than ever... but let's wait for a few tournaments and for some further play with the strongest possible IG "power lists" before we call them broken.

For one thing... not everyone is going to play them optimally for many months as they jigger and rejigger their lists. I'm sure proxy play has been going on for a while but until actual 5th ed IG units enter some competitive tournaments we won't see if the shouts of them being broken are even close to true or not.

It's easy to think up possible "broken lists" for any army and if you play them versus average players and average lists from other armies they may appear broken. Throw those same "broken" lists up against power lists and veteran players of other armies and I'll bet things even out and will look decidedly unbroken... with the luck of the dice often being the determinant of victory/loss(which is as it should be).

Sekhmet
30-04-2009, 07:01
I've always considered GK Termies to be prohibitively expensive myself, much less 12 of them. This plan of getting first turn charges also relies on the idea that you'll get first player turn...

When you deploy, there's a 5/6 probability of knowing if you're going first or second. Pretty good in my opinion.

If you know you're going second, you don't have to deploy the termies in the valks and can use them for other purposes.

Dictator
30-04-2009, 07:26
:D Agreed.

Yeah folks, let's go through the last 6-7 years or so...

When Tau were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. S5 basic weapons? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When Necrons were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Armour 14 deep striking pyramids? WBB? OMG! What is GW thinking?

When the latest Tyranids were introduced, they were going 'break the game'. Six Monstrous Creatures? An infiltrating group of Genestealers? OMG! What is GW thinking?

Meh. I'd go on but I'm tired of reposting the same thing over and over again. Oh... wait... :rolleyes:

Thank you for this post

Gensuke626
30-04-2009, 07:58
When you deploy, there's a 5/6 probability of knowing if you're going first or second. Pretty good in my opinion.

If you know you're going second, you don't have to deploy the termies in the valks and can use them for other purposes.

allowing them to be tactically flexible, but still possibly a waste of points. I dunno. GK Termies...and well...all termy like entities don't impress me that much. There's a reason I only field 6 Meganobs, and I think Meganobz are amazing compared to terminators.

I suppose this is just my sense of how dice work speaking, but Nothing about that combo really impresses me. It's sort of like when I was having a discussion with my friend about allowing IG to fire in both turns. His response was "My IG list is going to have a lot of templates." my response "Ok, and...?" Then he said "No, You don't understand. I'm going to be putting out a TON of templates." "Yeah and I can cover save them. Are you trying to scare or impress me? Cause it's not working buddy."

Once I see a unit of GKTermies Rip through an entire army because of first turn charge, I'll agree that the combo is as sick as Nob Bikers. Untill then it gets a resounding "meh" from my end. The valks frighten me more than the Termies.