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kairous
23-04-2009, 16:58
Well, we have a thread regarding the price increase, and a thread on how GW could keep prices down, etc.

So i thought why not have a thread discussing how far everyone is willing to go before they hit their limit.

I'll start:p.

Codexes/army books = £15, i personally will stop buying GW books for the read and not always the use as soon as they go over £15, as it is when it upped to 15 i decided i wouldn't rush out to get them. So if they all jump to £18 then im only going to buy the books for the army that im currently playing.

single/double model blisters = £12/15, still out on this one as i think quite a few are already on £12 for one model, which is a shame as im slowly being pushed away from the buying abbaddon to lead my black legion forces.

For the moment those are the only ones i can think of, off the top of my head, so i leave it up to you guys to continue where i left it, after i have had a chance to look over other products, i will continue (e.g tanks, sqauds, etc)

Onidan
23-04-2009, 17:10
Hm, dunno.

Probably once I´ll have to pay as much when ordering from england as I would right now here in germany. Right now it´s 30-50% cheaper, depending on pound ratio and so on.

So still some time I guess.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 17:12
For me it is a personal thing that is model by model and no so much Box of Troops.

I don't see me buying IG troops as the ones I like are not in stores (Vostroyan, Steel Legion, Pretorian) so even if Catachans were $10 for 20 I can't say I would buy them. Well okay $10 for 20 I would anyway. :p

I will pick up the Codices until they go over $25 each. I stopped buying WHFB when they hit that price so I haven't bought any in a while. I will stop getting the LotR books at about $30 or at a decrease in value. I don't plan to buy 6th edition/8th edition unless there is some great reason (like my first professorship is in the UK) so even if core books dropped in price I don't see me being a customer once the game moves on.

My kids like some GW models but they tend to get models that are far less expensive when I buy. There are exceptions with large models that they like but they are just as likely to pick a Warjack as a Dreadnought.

I haven't cut off GW but they don't really give me a reason to buy and the number of 40K players where I live now is next to nothing. Here it is all WM/Hordes with lots of moaning about the new edition about to be released and the move towards plastic. Sort of like GW but with less money.

kairous
23-04-2009, 17:20
I agree with you ben regarding the next editions of the core rules.

i stopped doing LOTR not long after the films ended, mainly because it just seemed to die until GW tried to add to it, without a film backing many people i knew couldn't be bothered with it, and with a lack of opponents i moved onto other systems.

Back to the core rules (side tracked myself there), i probably won't buy the next edition of fantasy, don't get me wrong its a good game, but i find people have an easier time of grasping the rules for 40k, as opposed to fantasy, without repeatedly refering to the rule book (the people i player regulary when i get time, and myself included).

tanks now, i think £35-40 is my limit for a tank, seeing as alot of them are plastic and GW harped on about how much easier it was to produce platic kits around the time of the last prise rise, so i can't see a reason to pay more then that.

The floor is free :D

Vic
23-04-2009, 17:33
Im in the same camp as Ben actually.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-04-2009, 17:38
For me it is a personal thing that is model by model and no so much Box of Troops.

I tend to think about it in terms of the quantities needed to make an army. The new price increase wont stop me slowly adding to my existing armies but it will stop me buying an entirely new army, at least until I finish my degree course.

thalaric
23-04-2009, 17:40
I just jumped back into 40k / Fantasy after a few years on hiatus, and I will admit that the price rise will take me above my threshold - and admittedly they are currently pretty much at the threshold, barring a few good deals scored by buying in bulk from the UK.

Army Books / Codices - $25. That is about the upper limit I have on a high quality paperback, and in line with my other RPG purchases for the moment.

Basic line troops - $22/35 (depending on the army). Basically while other parts of the army are allowed to be more expensive, one thing that needs to be cheap are your basic line infantry (or line cavalry, for fantasy). Since you theoretically need the most of these models, they need to retain a lower price threshold and let economy of scale take over.

"Elite" metal models - $10 per model / 15 for Cavalry. It should not cost over 100 bucks retail to build a squad of 10 infantry.

Vehicles: 30 for your average transport, 40 for your average tank. This is the 'fuzzy' area, but I think that these need to fall under the same guideline as my line troop statement, above. Now exceptionally large or special vehicles (Land Raider, Valkyrie) can break that rule.

Battallion/Battleforces - $90 per. These have always been seen as a decent value (sometimes, assuming you actually plan on using everything in it) and entry point, and when they get pushed to over 100 dollars each (after 6% sales tax) I think they lose a lot of that perception.

Starter boxes - $70 each, assuming they retain the level of quality of Mines of Moria / Black Reach / Skull Pass.

The additional parts of the army (bikes, specialty troops, specialty vehicles, special characters, etc) have a bit more flexibility in my eyes, but the models seen as "core units" of any army are pretty much at their threshold, so I'm waiting for info on what is exactly getting raised before I make a decision.

Bloodknight
23-04-2009, 17:42
10% less than what they currently charge in the Euro zone. If it weren't for the low pound, I would not have bought anything except a few paints in the last 6 months.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 18:02
I am curious what the limit is for those that are very active in the tournament scene (where they would in theory buy units based upon points efficiency and not cost) and those that are still very active in buying the models.

zedeyejoe
23-04-2009, 18:08
No limit for me. If I want it I get it.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 18:33
How badly do you want the current Codices, Army books, and rulebooks?

untimention
23-04-2009, 18:41
They are getting higher....

Gw will always say it's due to rising costs however they never say " we have saved some money".

Thankfully Ebay and online stores have kept this to a minimum but at the rate it's going by the time im 30 a codex is going to cost me £30 and a rulebook £70 and a army deal is going to cost me £75.... cough chock

stock up boys

simonr1978
23-04-2009, 18:44
No limit for me. If I want it I get it.

Everybody has a limit somewhere, even if it seems implausible at the moment. If suddenly tommorrow the prices were hiked to, say, £50 per infantry figure would you still get what you wanted? If yes, what about £500, or £5,000 per single figure?

Yes, I know these are quite silly amounts and that this is almost certainly not going to happen in the foreseeable future, but somewhere along the line everyone will hit the point that they decide product X (GW or otherwise) simply isn't worth paying the asking price for.

Whitehorn
23-04-2009, 18:55
I've found myself rarely buying metals these days.

I made a far better/cooler Saurus Scar Veteran using Saurus and Temple Guard plastics than the shoddy metal models could ever aspire to.

The same goes for skink heroes - you get one of each with the Stegadon kit - why bother buying 2 metals?

Narf
23-04-2009, 19:35
with some things its not actually a price rise.

Take for instance Codex/army books

When i first started these wew about £10-£15 each and about the size of the current SM book, they then (in 40k) went down to pamphlets that cost money, which wasnt fun, and now they are getting to be larger in size again its right that they get up to or even pass the old prices for the books.

Troops, again i'll go with an easy one, space marines when i started were £12-£15 for a box of 10 metals, with identikit arms guns etc, they eventually got up to around £20-£25 i think, and now the plastics are around £15-£18 and alot more possable and nicer to put together (though i actually prefer painting metals, so its ebay for me)

yes the prices have increased, and yes on some things this isnt very good, but overall in the 15 years since i started the prices you pay in cash, for the units, has decreased or stayed around the same, whilst the quality has increased.

freddythebig
23-04-2009, 19:40
For me it entirely depends on my perception of value for money of the particular item. There are some box sets and blisters that already I will not buy as they do not give me enough for my money. I am not talking about extra options or weapons here as I already have a number of overflowing bits boxes.
There are other items that are very close at the moment and if they rise in a couple of months as seems to be the case, then I will not be buying these either.

SimonL
23-04-2009, 19:45
My limit is directly proportional to a) how cool I think the model looks, and b) how much disposable income I currently have. For instance;

Reaver Titan. A (Epic Awesome!) < B (Not enough money) = Over limit

Hector Rex. A (Awesome) = B (Enough money but sort of expensive) = Debatable

Epic Warhound Titan. A (Awesome) > B (Enough money) = Under limit (must order)

:D

Gallant
23-04-2009, 20:35
The threshold changed for me with the changing of the gaming market. I looked around and realized I could buy plastic Perry or Wargames Factory minis for less than a dollar a piece or Copplestone metals for around 2 a piece for basic infantry. With the new plastic guard prices, I can buy ten figs for $22 plus 9.5% tax, so that works out to $2.40 a piece. My SMs come in at $35 + 9.5%, so about $38 for ten. Termies work out currently to $11 each with tax. That's ludicrous.

The book prices don't bother me so much, but I reached my threshold on the plastic troops and so I'm done in for new armies. All it took was for one part of the game to reach a point where the whole endeavor just seemed silly.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 20:59
So Gallant, are you saying you quit 40K or that you play and just no longer buy?

Corporal Punishment
23-04-2009, 21:00
For me it entirely depends on my perception of value for money of the particular item. There are some box sets and blisters that already I will not buy as they do not give me enough for my money. I am not talking about extra options or weapons here as I already have a number of overflowing bits boxes.
There are other items that are very close at the moment and if they rise in a couple of months as seems to be the case, then I will not be buying these either.

This is exactly how I feel. I used to buy every codex, now I only buy the ones I need. I've got a lot of pieces built up for the armies I play so I only purchase what I need. And I haven't needed anything for quite a while. I will be buying some of the new IG stuff. A lot of things are getting very close to the point where I would not buy them unless I get them in a bulk transaction on ebay. Valkyries are a good example, I'll never pay $50 for them but will, instead buy an entire army from ebay and keep what I need in order to get them.

Value is also important. I have a hard time paying $25 for a codex when I can get the Forgeworld books at $70 or so. The value with the Forgeworld product is light years ahead, even though it is of limited use in the game.

Coasty
23-04-2009, 21:14
Hmmm. They're getting near to mine. I picked up a Rhino today...£18 for what, from any other manufacturer, is a £5.99 tank?

kairous
23-04-2009, 21:29
Hmmm. They're getting near to mine. I picked up a Rhino today...£18 for what, from any other manufacturer, is a £5.99 tank?

Rhinos are £18:wtf:

I mean i usually pop into my local GW once maybe twice a week during a tea break to say hi and see whats going on, but it only just occured to me i haven't actually looked at the prices in ages, but still thats extreme.

For a rhino my limit would probably be £15-18, maybe im being stingy but as you said, anyone else would sell something cheaper that has a hell of alot more plastic, yes you can't really compare things like action figures or transformers to this, but, those things do have alot of complex parts and mechanism and your getting them for a fraction of the price.

I think the main reason i haven't looked over the prices in a while is the new online site, its slow and buggy IMO, and always seems to crash when you try and search something, so i just don't use it.

Next time im in store though i will be checking up on prices.;)

Khornies & milk
23-04-2009, 21:38
Seen as I get 99% of my GW product at 20+% off I'm OK with the current prices. The only things I pay full price for is the odd Blister so I couldn't care less about retail prices.

That said, I always consider whether or not I 'perceive' the value of said mini/whatever.
I think WD is worth it because I only pay $1 towards it's cost because the other 9 guys in our group pay their share as well.
I will never buy a FW Titan because for me it isn't worth A$800+.

EmperorNorton
23-04-2009, 22:05
10% less than what they currently charge in the Euro zone. If it weren't for the low pound, I would not have bought anything except a few paints in the last 6 months.

That's pretty close to my own stance.
The latest string of price rises has reached and passed my limit on a lot of things.
Especially the price increase on blisters with price code D from 10€ to 11,50€ has affected my buying habits.

Templar Ben
23-04-2009, 22:08
Norton,

Do you not buy or just buy less?

EmperorNorton
23-04-2009, 22:56
Norton,

Do you not buy or just buy less?

I don't think I have bought a blister since that particular price increase.
Well, that's not entirely true, I bought a couple of blisters with price code G before those went up in price.
While I used to occasionally buy a blister when I was at my local store, I now only buy a pot of paint.

Due to the weak pound I have ordered a lot of GW stuff from the UK, but I cannot justify the prices I'd have to pay if I were to buy locally.
(I had to find another way to support my FLGS, so a lot of people got board games for Christmas...)

BDJV
23-04-2009, 23:26
I have to say that Terminators and Landraiders are at the limit for me as it stands. If they go up I won't buy anymore of them.

For plastic Troop/Core selections 4 USD each is my limit.

I don't see why plastic models need to be expensive, especially when the reason given for producing models in plastic was to make 'em cheap.

Darnok
23-04-2009, 23:45
10% less than what they currently charge in the Euro zone. If it weren't for the low pound, I would not have bought anything except a few paints in the last 6 months.


That's pretty close to my own stance.
The latest string of price rises has reached and passed my limit on a lot of things.
Especially the price increase on blisters with price code D from 10€ to 11,50€ has affected my buying habits.


Due to the weak pound I have ordered a lot of GW stuff from the UK, but I cannot justify the prices I'd have to pay if I were to buy locally.

Quoted so I have to write less. Almost exactly my point of view. Only exception is the (very rare) impulse buy at my local GW. But that is not comparable to the amounts of money I used to spend. I'm close to the point where I won't even buy at a discount, because GW gets the same money nonetheless, and I just don't want to support them in their attitude.

boogle
24-04-2009, 01:13
The next price rises are my limit, i'll be trading/buying second hand or heavily discounted from now on

chivalrous
24-04-2009, 01:30
The last thing I bought was the Dark Elf army book and to be honest, I see Marvel and DC TPBs that cost more for fewer pages so at the moment I'm not too worried about the costs of army books, or the Rule book for that matter. An edition every fives years generally means I pay £6 a year for the rule book. Cheaper than a WAR subscription and a lot more fun :p

As for models, I've been playing so long, I don't need to buy any new ones unless they bring out a new unit for Dark Elves.
I draw the line at anything more than £2 per infantry model, £5 per character model or cavalry model, £10 per war machine and £15 per large monster which means in that respect GW has already priced me out for most things beyond plastics.

Pulsks
24-04-2009, 01:43
I'm never going to buy a warhawk or treekin. I'm not paying 20 dollars for those. (Well, sure I have 10 treekin, but thats thanks to 2 anniversary boxes. :P)

I'd like things to cost about 2-3.5 dollars per 'normal' sized model, which is what I have right now with my woodies (For the mostparts), and as long as it stays like, I'll be happy. Even if they are expensive, they are luxury items.

Hicks
24-04-2009, 02:50
Some models like vehicles and special characters are already too expensive for me to buy them, I really am starting to love OOP minis more and more because of this. This price increase seriously means it's my last year of buying new stuff. I'm saying this taking into account a 20% internet discount.

Templar Ben
24-04-2009, 02:56
Maybe since there are so many old timers that are thinking this will really change buying habits we should have a thread on our buying. Anytime we make a purchase we will post what we buy, the price, and the source. That way we can see if purchases are really dropping off.

Just an idea.

I know lots of people will jump in there and post that they just got a 5 pack of LR or something but for the ones that post a lot we know each other. When you see that I dropped $100 you know it must have been something I really wanted.

Unforgiven666
24-04-2009, 03:15
I try to limit myself when i go to the store, if im not buying anything in particular, i limit myself to a blister pack or a squad, I dont like spending too much on impulse.

Zink
24-04-2009, 04:27
I hit my limit on rules when 5th ed 40k and 7th ed Warhammer came out. I already own tons of codecii/army books and rules from many editions. I haven't seen or heard anything to convince me that it's work stocking up on another couple hundred dollars worth of new books. I'm still buying rules but not from GW.

As for minis, I still really like a lot of GW minis. If I had cash too blow I'd collect several other armies even though my shelves are already sagging. As it is I can buy historical minis that are close to as good a quality as GW for much less. So I'm buying the odd figure to finish out my GW armies but new projects will be with minis from other companies. Last "major" GW purchase for me was BFSP when it came out. That was value for my dollar even if the minis aren't the highest quality. Since then I've bought a handful more goblins and some paints from GW and about $500 from Reaper, Gripping Beast and other companies that charge less. I'm eying up the Wargames Factory and Warlord games minis now because of the price.

Being married with kids has cut into my games money big time and what I do spend gets me more other places than GW.

snurl
24-04-2009, 06:03
I'm already there. There are several sets of figures i would like to buy but I just can't seem to justify their cost. This is usually resolved for me around the holidays when I get gift certificates, then go fill in the must get next list.

chromedog
24-04-2009, 07:30
After playing and collecting for over 20 years, I have most of the models/units for my armies that I need (in multiple configs). I have 11 Rhinos for my SM, but my =I=/DH share them. I have 4 land raiders (also shared). I know I can scratch build most of the SM tanks if I need more.

I stopped buying EACH codex, though - sticking purely to those armies that I play.

Most new characters and the like I can kitbash from available plastics/metals (and I get to control the amount of bling on them).

It's my main hobby. I will find ways to afford it. If that means playing from photocopies/pdfs of the rulebook/codex then so be it. I mainly play in a club, not a GW store, so it's not really an issue.

Gallant
24-04-2009, 07:49
So Gallant, are you saying you quit 40K or that you play and just no longer buy?

For the time I'll play, but once my current codexes and rulebook get out of date, I probably won't purchase new ones. GW is also constantly altering point values and the utility of units, so last year's decent army is this year's joke. New editions bring on a host of new costs. Unless I stay on that purchasing treadmill, I won't be able to keep playing.


Seen as I get 99% of my GW product at 20+% off I'm OK with the current prices. The only things I pay full price for is the odd Blister so I couldn't care less about retail prices.


I've seen this response a lot lately. Buy at discount. Sure, but if you currently buy at 80% of MSRP and the prices go up 30% in a year and a half, your discount is wiped out and you're now paying above your previous threshold. Given that wages are not only flat, but that we're now in a deflationary period, that threshold shouldn't have moved upward.

And as the the "luxury" argument, I'm not on board with that. I have hobbies and I have luxuries. I have my shirts custom made, a premium wine collection and my watches are mechanical pieces from Switzerland. They are luxuries and what they add to my life is not the same as what I get out of hobbies.

I also build narrow gauge trains, play airsoft, bake bread and do miniatures gaming. Those are hobbies. I do them for fun. I don't hoard wine for fun and I don't bake bread as a luxury.

{yes, I know that second-to-last paragraph may make me sound like an elitist jerk. I'll take that lump.}

Foolish Mortal
24-04-2009, 08:00
I can't specify exact prices that would make me call it a day, as like many it would be on a model to model basis. The limit would come when I felt the cost of the model outweighed my desire to own it.

I've already practically cut impulse buying from my local GW store to zero & find I now really think about what I'm buying, and get most of it from on-line retailers - yeah, I know this isn't hurting GW, but it's hurting my wallet a lot less as well.

I'm just really glad I don't have armies to buy for.

spaint2k
24-04-2009, 08:08
I have the feeling the latest prices will finally (after 22 years) push me over the edge.

I can afford to keep buying, that's for sure, but most of GW's stuff is priced way beyond what I'd consider reasonable to begin with. Having the ability to buy their figures at any price does NOT mean that I will continue to buy them at any price.

Like many here, I have already amassed considerable quantities of figures. I don't "need" to buy anything new to feed my addiction for many years to come.

Coupled with that is my increasing frustration at what I consider to be a LOUSY ruleset (I'm looking at you, 40K! Look at what you could have been!).

I still like some of Forge World's stuff, and it's possible they'll be able to tempt me. New scenery is also very tempting (hell, I'm one of the people who bought the gameboard for the incredible utility that it offers me in my microscopic urban home). But new figures? No thanks. I'm taking a break.

Steve

Raka
24-04-2009, 08:49
I dont buy any GW at retail. I dont buy any GW hobby supplies. I do buy with online discount. Battalions are worth my money, individual box sets are too.

Giant, dragon, stegadon would be worth my money. So are 10 vampire counts hounds, 5 chaos knights for $40nz. $75 for 5 terminators is too much. $105 for black reach kit including 5 terminators is a good deal.

Forgeworld is a luxury that perhaps when im a skilled painter i will choose to buy.

I have reduced my spending 5 years ago. Paint pots for $7? When they dry out they will be replaced by another brand.

Poseidal
24-04-2009, 09:06
I thought £18 were expensive until I looked at other manufacturer's tanks of similar scale and found they were roughly the same price. I think it's a facet of rip-off Britain, and GW is a British company so the prices don't go down abroad.

Osbad
24-04-2009, 09:10
I reached my limit a couple of years ago now. Nowadays I tend to only buy GW stuff at extreme discount, and even then, very rarely. My limit was £1 for a plastic model, £2 for a metal one. Character models I would pay more, but GW are just taking the ****. £7 for a single dwarf or goblin? Feth off!

When I can by a nice bottle of wine for £3 -£4 there's no way on God's earth I'm going to pay £10 or somesuch for a single model. I mean a hobby's a hobby, but so little product for so much cash is just ridunkulous!

spaint2k
24-04-2009, 09:14
About two or three years ago, a box of tactical marines was 15 pounds, and the Iron Hands box was 18 pounds. They both went up to the next price bracket (18 and 20 pounds). Recently, I've noticed that the Iron Hands box jumped into the 25 pound bracket. Another price rise and where will they both be?

I'll tell you my limit (okay, I already did three posts above, but still...)
Ammo runts for 10 pounds. GW must be out of their collective gourd.

Steve

BLZBOB
24-04-2009, 09:31
I am of that group that doesn't game but does like the models and must collect them. Even so until this week my GW & FW spending total for the year was standing at £0.

I have since dropped money on the guard, 4 valks, a codex, and some new catacan goodies, oh and 3 shadowswords. This is in spite of the fact I am going to be out of work after next week and have no income. After all I'll need something to do whilst I wait for a new job start.

In all seriousness most prices are flexible the ones that are really worrying are those deal boxes. At 50 and 100 each they represent a known deal you get some money off and you are laying down cash. Trouble is those numbers (50 &100) represent key points on the financial landscape. As I have said before someone may not have any probs dropping 50 notes on a battleforce over 50, such as the proposed 55 and it gives pause for thought. This is bad as you question why you are paying this amount for a toy its a 10% increase which although you are still getting a deal does make you think. At that point there will be people who at point of sale decide not to go ahead. It would have been more sensible for them to either absorb the costings and keep the box at 50 or jiggle the contents to keep it at 50.

Just think to yourself for a moment the key difference, its only fifty pounds compared to its over fifty pounds. Only three letters have changed but the impact is much greater.

That said my limit was reached a while ago I no longer buy direct but through the discount arena and my purchasing has dropped as the perceived value drops. Its not a matter of I have a fixed limit to spend and if it gets more expensive I'll just spend the same for less. If I am receiving a lower return for my input I'll look at spending that money elsewhere.

Case in point my PS3, by craftily hitting sales I pick up the games I want at substantially reduced costings leading me to perceive it as better value. The HAWX game I liked, loved the demo but wouldn't pay 40GBP for it. Within a month its on sale at 25 much better perceived value and so my money goes there.

thinkerman
24-04-2009, 10:39
I don't see why plastic models need to be expensive, especially when the reason given for producing models in plastic was to make 'em cheap.

It does sorta defeat the purpose doesnt it, pushing plastics because they will be a cheaper alternative to metals then raising all the plastics up in price along with the metal anyway!

For me price is the biggest thing pushing me off GW, the seconded by the quality of the products

Standard GW stuff just doesnt seem to cut it anymore in terms of value, quality (the new falling apart army books produced on the cheap) and forever raising price.

Forgeworld can be expensive too but we all pay more for the extra nice quality side of it and they minis and books do speak for themselves in terms of the quality, size, work and effort thats gone into them.

I dont mind paying for stuff if the value is there - i.e. Forgeworld Titans but the new pricing and re-boxing stuff does take the mick!

20 Cadians - £18 - old big box
10 Cadians - £12 - new smaller box
10 Cadians - £15 - new smaller box after price rise (well thats what ive been told)

mrtn
24-04-2009, 11:36
It seems that I've already passed my limit. This last year I've bought lots of GW stuff, but 80% has been from ebay. I have the new WoC armybook, but the latest model I bought from GW (well, an internet discounter actually) was Harry the Hammer. I'm happily plugging away at my old school skaven army with monopose rats and OOP metals. :)

Bloodknight
24-04-2009, 13:48
Quoted so I have to write less. Almost exactly my point of view. Only exception is the (very rare) impulse buy at my local GW. But that is not comparable to the amounts of money I used to spend. I'm close to the point where I won't even buy at a discount, because GW gets the same money nonetheless, and I just don't want to support them in their attitude.

My impulse buying pretty much stopped when the common blisters went over the 10€-mark. For some reason I hate taking more than one note/bill out of my wallet to pay for a blister. The only thing I bought on impulse in the last months was a box of Bloodletters, which are good value at 20€, again a one bill-mark (and even more so at roughly half of that in the UK. I took a look at Wayland games a few days a go and saw that the new command boxes for the IG cost 12,47€ there at that time. One box in Germany: 25€...where am I supposed to buy, I ask...?).

The one thing that I found funny, however, was that my Forgeworld spending went way up - the models look more and more like a good deal compared to the GW models, for example CSM dreadnoughts.

75hastings69
24-04-2009, 13:52
It would appear we are now expected to be happy paying £25 for 10 plastic models (the new Empire Greatswords) this has just crossed my limit - thanks but no thanks GW.

dancingmonkey
24-04-2009, 14:02
It would appear we are now expected to be happy paying £25 for 10 plastic models (the new Empire Greatswords) this has just crossed my limit - thanks but no thanks GW.

Yup,

£12 for ten plastics and £15 for elite was still just about stomachable to me. Barely... factor in online discounts and I could pay just over a tenner for ten plastic figs. £2.50 for a man sized plastic fig is of no interest to me at all.

For me the real problem lies in game scale. I play a lot of WM these days, which is slightly above skirmish. Pound for pound PP charge about the same as GW, but I need far fewer figs, and the addition of one model can completely change m game and tactics. A core inf set will be £10-30 depending on size and type, this represents around 10-30% of my force. Ten Greatswrods for £25 certainly doesn't represent as much.

Hrafn
24-04-2009, 14:34
For me the real problem lies in game scale. I play a lot of WM these days, which is slightly above skirmish. Pound for pound PP charge about the same as GW, but I need far fewer figs, and the addition of one model can completely change m game and tactics. A core inf set will be £10-30 depending on size and type, this represents around 10-30% of my force. Ten Greatswrods for £25 certainly doesn't represent as much.

Slightly off-topic: Could we please use realistic comparisons when discussing GW prices? Lately, we have seen the emergence of good quality mini companies considerably cheaper than GW, but try and compare direct competitors, and you will see, that they are not much more expensive when comparing relatively sized games.

The example with WM above does not ring quite true for me. You might play a very cheap faction, but I can tell you my Trollbloods core infantry does not cost around 10 pounds, its more like 60+ pounds (in Danish prices) for a full unit which accounts for about a fifth of my 500-points army (comparable to between 1000 and 1500 point WFB games).
True, I need fewer figs, but individual WM/Hordes figs can be horrendously expensive, making many infantry units in general very, very overpriced. Again, compare the price of metal PP Kriel Warriors to GW plastic Orc and you will see that plastic ARE indeed much cheaper than metal (unless, of course, you want to claim that PP are pure money-grabbing evil child-molesters, but then I know that on these boards, that role is reserved for GW :rolleyes:)

dancingmonkey
24-04-2009, 14:40
Slightly off-topic: Could we please use realistic comparisons when discussing GW prices? Lately, we have seen the emergence of good quality mini companies considerably cheaper than GW, but try and compare direct competitors, and you will see, that they are not much more expensive when comparing relatively sized games.

The example with WM above does not ring quite true for me. You might play a very cheap faction, but I can tell you my Trollbloods core infantry does not cost around 10 pounds, its more like 60+ pounds (in Danish prices) for a full unit which accounts for about a fifth of my 500-points army (comparable to between 1000 and 1500 point WFB games).
True, I need fewer figs, but individual WM/Hordes figs can be horrendously expensive, making many infantry units in general very, very overpriced. Again, compare the price of metal PP Kriel Warriors to GW plastic Orc and you will see that plastic ARE indeed much cheaper than metal (unless, of course, you want to claim that PP are pure money-grabbing evil child-molesters, but then I know that on these boards, that role is reserved for GW :rolleyes:)

Indeed which is why I tried to be fair in my post. Yup, trolls get shafted by the costs, an army of mid based models is very steep. That is one high example. I play Cryx so fall somewhere in the middle. My Biles and Mechs are cheap, my banes less so... so I averaged the costs. The fewer inf you take the cheaper it tends to get (although the newer models are better sculpts and higher part counts so higher cost overall.

I am a big PP fan these days, having played GW for 14 years, and I agree they are priced about the same (I even said so in my post) but consider myself a fanboi for neither so perhaps playing the "we all hate GW card" was unnecessary?

Templar Ben
24-04-2009, 15:11
It would appear that it greatly depends on location as far as PP price as well.

Poseidal
24-04-2009, 15:16
It would appear that it greatly depends on location as far as PP price as well.

Yep. Where I am, PP is actually about ~30% more expensive than GW for an equivalent amount of models (both metal).

Bloodknight
24-04-2009, 15:18
Where I live, PP charge 30€ for 6 metal infantry. GW charge between 30 for 10 and 42,50 for 10 infantry.

Templar Ben
24-04-2009, 15:22
Perhaps we shouldn't use them as an example since they are far cheaper where I am and more expensive where you are.

Just saying we can end up talking in circles since our environments are different.

spaint2k
24-04-2009, 15:28
Perhaps we shouldn't use them as an example since they are far cheaper where I am and more expensive where you are.

Just saying we can end up talking in circles since our environments are different.

I would suggest that it's more reasonable to use other British manufacturers as a benchmark against GW's British prices.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PP is American-based. Not sure if you'd consider GW's American prices as a reasonable comparison against PP given that the prices in the US are mostly based on GW's "British Empire Exchange Rates".

Steve

Templar Ben
24-04-2009, 15:34
PP is American.

Osbad
24-04-2009, 16:03
Its not very easy to make a valid comparison between a US retailer and a UK one for 3 reasons:

1/ The £ fell 20% vs the US$ back before Christmas and hasn't receovered yet. It takes a very long time for such a massive price change to filter through the system and in the meantime, there is a 20% difference between UK and US prices that has absolutely nothing to do with GW or PP's pricing structure.

2/ US average wages are much lower than in the UK. However the cost of living in the UK is much higher than in the US. Partly due to infrastructure (the US is a much larger market with a much more fluid workforce and looser labour laws), and partly due to tax structure (US sales and income taxes are much lower, and local/State property taxes are much higher).

3/ Exporting from the US and importing to the UK/EU is a very different proposition with very different cost drivers and tax regimes to doing the opposite (exporting from the UK/EU to the US).

For these reasons it is very hard to compare US and UK pricing structures and come to any conclusions about whether one company is "fairer" than another. PP, based in the US, and GW based primarily in the UK are looking at trying to satisfy very, very different primary markets.

Here in the UK, PP customers have been heavily hit by the exchange rate thing which made their models (already higher priced than GW figures because of import duty) even more expensive in comparison.

GW customers were already paying relatively more in the UK than US for most things (but on average, statistically had higher incomes so as a "proportion" of disposable income prices were probably actually similar), but then with the collapse of the £ vs the $ found that importing GW stuff was a much cheaper option than buying locally.

In order to make a comparison between GW and anyone else it is perhaps better to look at other UK based manufacturers - such as the new breed of historcial plastics manufacturers - I just bought a box of >60 hard plastic 1:72 scale German WWII infantry from http://www.valiantminiatures.com/ for less than £10. Now they are smaller, obviously, so model count isn't a fair comparison, so I'll say it is a box of 4 sprues. That compares nicely with the cost of 4 sprues of 25mm infantry from the LotR ranges that GW puts out. That would set me back £30.

On those terms, GW looks like much worse value for money than Valiant, 3x worse to be precise! Costs of making the moulds, cost of sculpting, costs of packaging, costs of distribution, etc all must be pretty similar. The cost of running the GW store is immaterial as the extra sales revenue generated should more than recover the extra costs of running a store and distribution network (otherwise there's no point, right?). Valient's overheads are likely to be higher per box too, as they are a small company and produce less product. So what are GW doing that justifies charging 3x the price to me, the customer?

Personally I can't see a single thing. Not one, single, solitary thing.

I mean, I like GW's IP, but not 3x as much as I like WWII, or Napoleonics, or ESW, or ASW, or any of the other markets I can now buy cheap wargames models for...

I bought AOBR back in the summer. But I'm just losing the will to add anything more. Its just not justifiable. I can get more fun, spending the same or less money on other things. Why the heck should I get gouged on 40k? Its not even that good of a game! I mean, its OK, but not 3x as good as other games out there. See the pattern?

Wake up GW! It's called "competition" and its about to bite you on the ****!

dancingmonkey
24-04-2009, 16:45
One thing to bear in mind with PP is that the UK and possible Europe models are not made and shipped form the USA any more.

They licensed out casting to a UK company who also are responsible for running the UK events (whose name escapes me at this moment). They receive molds from PP and cast up all UK stuff, plus provide replacement parts. This may change with plastic as start up costs for that are known to be higher than metal.

Not sure what I'm adding here, other than PP's UK prices are slightly out of whack with what they perhaps should be as they shouldn't include import and major shipping costs. (which means I really should be annoyed about buying PP models, yet strangely I'm not, perceived values at work here me thinks :))

On the other hand we have Rackham who's PPP model proces are major, although they ship from China I guess. Still, I don't buy their (plastic) models as I have no interest in PPP wargames, although did enjoy monpoc, but that is a different type of game altogether. (I did repaint my Monpoc though...)

But either way, compared to UK based companies like Warlord and Perrys, the new GW price rise could be seen as a bit much and certainly takes me into the beyond my limit regardless of online discount

Angelwing
24-04-2009, 17:24
About a year ago my impulse buys stopped, my GW mail order use has stopped (unless they produce an archive model I want) and my general army building has stopped, even with online discounts.
I stopped buying army books for all forces over ten years ago when I ceased to be a redshirt and now only buy for my armies. However, I've yet to buy the latest space marine book. £15 was a psychological limit for a softback book, that I had to swallow hard to justify. £18 is too much. I bought the ork book on release but have found that I haven't used the army since that january! Thats not a fault in the codex (far from it) it's just that my army interests have moved away from them. I consider it a mistake to have bought the book for one of my fringe armies. I haven't bought the space marine book for partly the same reason, but it was the higher price that pushed it over the edge. I will be picking up the guard codex as it's a main army for me, but it will be with online discount.
My new army building has basically finished as I can't find what I want even from online stores at a cheap enough price so it will just be occasional add ons for current forces from now on, or a lucky ebay / bartertown find. For an actual price limit I don't really have one for models. It's judged on a model by model case. I can't justify the cost of the new vampire hero models, even though I really want one. I did however, justify a forgeworld trygon despite the cost.....

freddythebig
24-04-2009, 18:49
Osbad, interesting to read your comments on the Valiant figures as this afternoon I have just picked up the latest Wargames Illustrated which comes with a free sprue od 16 GIs from Valiant.
As someone who plays FoW and has dabbled in 20mm WWII in the past, and having now seen the quality and price of these figures I think I know where my money will be going this year.

ryntyrr
24-04-2009, 19:50
About 60% less than the current entire pricing range is my limit including all publications. So I guess that's me out for good:eyebrows:.

I've got two Hordes faction armies, one of them is Trollbloods and two Warmachine factions armies and one of those is Khador. All 4 combined is cheaper than a 1500point IG army & Empire Army with the new GW prices. Hope that explains my first sentence above.

Flying Toaster
24-04-2009, 20:17
The new April WD is £4.50 so thats gone up by 50p. Good thing I have a 2 year subscription already running.

rivers3162
24-04-2009, 22:06
GW are getting fairly close to my own personal limit. I generally purchase most of my stuff either online or in my FLGS because they have decent discounts but even now, my GW purchases are few and far between and I can see them becoming even more so when the prices go up in June.

I realize that wargaming is a luxury hobby and I honestly don't mind paying money for things that I enjoy but recently it seems that GW is going to cross the line between expensive and ridiculous. £25 for 10 Empire Greatswords and £15 for 10 old Cadian or Catachan guardsmen is ludicrous. Another disappointment for me was the new Ork ammo grots (which, lets be honest, should have been included with Kaptain Badrukk) - I absolutely love the sculpts but I think £10 is just too much.

I also buy Privateer stuff and whilst their UK prices have started to get a bit silly recently, mainly as a result of the poor exchange rates etc., I don't mind paying for their products nearly as much as I mind paying for GW and I honestly think that what a lot of it boils down to is goodwill. Privateer certainly aren't perfect by any means but the level of communication (real or perceived) they have with their community makes me feel much more favourable towards them. I don't think GW has that kind of communication with its customers and I get a far more condescending, corporate feeling and thus I don't have as much goodwill for the company as a whole.

My personal limit is probably £15-18 for ten man infantry boxes and £8-18 for characters. Any more and I'd have to walk away.

Bloodknight
24-04-2009, 22:07
Guard are basically already at 25 pounds. 15 for the 10 infantry, and 10 for the weapon team that makes them worthwhile. Ridiculous.

Gallant
24-04-2009, 22:15
I appreciate that PP is expensive. So are the Infinity miniatures. I don't play those games. While I can appreciate that some games are pricey, most of them are not nearly so much. It's also worth noting here, yet again, that those games are smaller. Cost of entry is far lower. Sure, there are costly builds one can make, but saying the most costly WM army is more expensive than one of the lower 40K builds is like saying a VW is more expensive than a Porsche because a fully-loaded Phaeton tops out above the cost of a base Panamera.

Dropping those two costly companies from the argument, what about comparing GW to the other folks out there making plastic and metal miniatures?

What about Perry? You're getting top GW sculpting talent on phenomenal figures at a price that could tempt even the most hard-up gamer. 28mm Napoleonics and ACW gaming used to be incredibly costly, but they used plastics to put them in the reach of anyone. GW on the other hand has taken a once affordable little skirmish game and used plastics to take it out of the range of even those who could afford metal 28mm Napoleonics. It's becoming an alchemist to turn gold into lead.

scarletsquig
24-04-2009, 22:19
It would appear we are now expected to be happy paying £25 for 10 plastic models (the new Empire Greatswords) this has just crossed my limit - thanks but no thanks GW.

Ditto. £18 is my limit on those, was fully expecting them to cost that much, factoring in the june price rise (plastic regiments to £15) + £3 for being an elite unit, same as the black orcs. A few quid premium is no big deal. £10 is.

Putting that box up at £25 hasn't just put me off of getting those particular models, it's put me off of getting any GW stuff for a while, even the stuff that's still within my limits.

I'll paint up my Black Scorpion stuff (£1.60 per 30mm metal model) and make another order with them instead. Will be picking up an AT-43 army as soon as they release the new army boxes.

Edonil
24-04-2009, 22:27
My limit got reached when I heard about the price hikes...at least as far as 40k goes. Almost finished with building my Sisters, and was looking into Guard, but I need $450 worth of vehicles to do the army I wanted before the price hike. Fantasy hasn't felt like worth playing in months, but War of the Ring has gotten me excited. While I miss the variety of multi-part plastics, I like the price tag for the LOTR stuff. When I can get 24 Orcs at just shy of a dollar a miniature at current, I don't feel like I'm being ripped off.

stonehorse
24-04-2009, 23:05
What's my limit, £25 for 10 man sized plastic models... that right there is my limit.

It's been a nice 14 years, but unless GW reduce their prices my spending habbits are either dead, or it'll be very rare I buy from them.

I can't wait to see the new Wine bar taht my local GW will be turned into when GW suffer the fall out for this very silly move.

LonelyPath
24-04-2009, 23:15
I feel that GW is already beyond my budget in many cases so I tend to hunt around online for bargians, 2nd hand unwanted gifts and so on. I usually pick things up for a good rate. I only pay full price if I need something fast and my budget happens to be able to afford it that month. Earlier this year I was lucky with a large refund from my bank and spent that on alot of GW goodies, but if if wasn't fr that I'd never have afforded a super heavy.

Lesson from the wise kids, never become a illustrator or animator, at least not a freelance one, the money's not there, lol.

However, £25 for 10 plastic, £10 for a single 25mm based metal, £15 for a 40mm base metal is my limit. Tanks and so on I don't tend to buy alot of, so they're rare purshases that I will slash out more cash on when I can afford them. Otherwise I bargain hunt as I mentioned above.

dancingmonkey
24-04-2009, 23:33
Lesson from the wise kids, never become a illustrator or animator, at least not a freelance one, the money's not there, lol.


QFT. Also add, don't then quit being an illustrator to study journalism, never thought you could get paid less than an illustrator till I made this mistake :(

Harry
24-04-2009, 23:38
What's my limit, £25 for 10 man sized plastic models... that right there is my limit.
Me to.
Right there!
Not paying that.
Didn't even know I had a limit till today.

Velsharoon
24-04-2009, 23:41
Never study Philosophy you end up working in a shop, although perhaps its my aspirations at fault there!

My limit has been reached, so much more I wanted to do but the price is phenomenal. Maybe I shall just buy less but I doubt it, somehow they have crossed a line. its good news for other manufacturers however but people need to make the psychological leap from GW to other brands. I for one am just as guilty as any other but its like only playing pc games from one publisher or something...

DarthFreder
24-04-2009, 23:42
Difficult to say. Usually during the last 15 years I worked in several shops selling games and so I got a number of nice discounts. But anyway, I have´t spend much money to be honest to buy an army. Most of my stuff were unwanted miniatures (Tallarns in the 90s), SMs I got from a friend for free, a metal Thunderhawk for a couple of hours of work. The only army I bought directly in one rush was my mecha Tau but this was also a special deal (Devilfish + squad) I benefitted from. Think first - buy then.
Now I sold some of my armies and could right afford it to buy my 2nd Scorpion Mk II.
Sure I am not buying at a GW stuff unless I have to - but the local one is quite tiny and the standard sortiment is not good. GW could make a fortune with me - IF they still had their mailorder service. Currently I have the money (after many years having it NOT) and I am willing to spend $$$ for my hobby.

I don´t know how the age/money is distributed in this online community, but I saw my first roleplaying miniatures in the early 1980s and could never imagine that I once will have 3, 5 or 10 DM to spend for a miniature (no, not GW). "Must be a game for rich people..:" I thought by myself. 15 years later, I had many hundred miniatures of all kind.
Prices rose with the years - together with pocket money or income. It is alway -damn- a little bit too expensive... but, this is my freaky hobby.

Yes, currently I am willing to pay 500 GBP for FW, 100 GBP for a Makita Cordless Drill, 6000 for a sailing dinghy BUT I am NOT willing to spend the same money for a car, for holidays, for beer or a XXL TV set. Simply because that´s not my hobby.

Don´t think, I have no relation to money... 6 month ago, I had not even 5 Euros for a kebap! Times change, prices change, hobbies change.

Sometimes it is even better to simply look into the FW catalogue and just think what you want to buy, imagine what impact it would have on the battlefield, dream of it how it will look painted. But at the end, if you saved the money to buy the miniature of your monthlong desire, you´ll often notice that it just another cold and boring piece of plastic on your shelves....


*****

people need to make the psychological leap from GW to other brands.
That´s always what we hoped in the shops. Getting rid of GW dominance, broaden your other miniature offers - but it didn,t work well.
*Mutant Chronicles, Warzone and Chronopia sold good - but failed.
*Ikore tried it with VOID, they really tried it hard, just even they offered their miniatures as GW replacement - finally they failed.
*Rackham tried a good alternative to GW, after consecutive "price increases" - they failed.
*Wargames Foundry and Reaper went well at first as an addition to WHF, but they also got too expensive - and failed.
*Warmachine started well, but after price increases...-yeah, failed
*Infinity, good miniatures but nothing for the masses... let´s give it another chance...
*Personally I would like to see "Wargods" more often, but there are no players.

You see: Finally, they all come back to Games Workshop at the end!!!:skull:
Main reasons:
1) The most players.
2) The most events.
3) Good quality.
4) Good storyline.

Pokpoko
25-04-2009, 00:07
You see: Finally, they all come back to Games Workshop at the end!!!:skull:
Main reasons:
1) The most players.
2) The most events.
3) Good quality.
4) Good storyline.
Better dead than GWed!
yeah,that is to say i'v happily parted with GW some time ago, and odd hobby supplies here and there(paints only,tbh) nonwithstanding, they don't see a single penny out of me. i play those "other" games, and frankly, i cannot see myself buying a box of 10 plastic toy soldiers for 15Ł again.

shadowskale
25-04-2009, 00:15
The books are farrrr to pricey in my eyes.
tbh if they took out some of the artwork the books could be sold or £7 ten at a push.

however GW uping the price just goes to show how tight money is getting. :(

cttran77
25-04-2009, 01:26
I'm a fairly well paid engineer, so my limit is mostly based on my perception of fair value, rather than, say the trade off of paying my mortgage or buying food and clothing.

In US dollars, $15-25 is what I perceive to be fair retail value for a model car kit. When I first entered the Warhammer hobby a few years ago, a pack of 16 high elf spearmen were $30, so that was slightly more expensive. But I liked fantasy & sci-fi models better so I paid the premium. When regiment/squad boxes increased to $33, and then to $35, I grumbled but they were still pretty close to what I originally found acceptable. So I kept buying. Now the Empire Greatswords are coming out for $41.50 in the US. I think if GW had priced them at $39.95 I might have still grumbled but would consider getting a box. But once the 10's digit in the price rolled over to 40, I think that was my psychological limit. I'm out! I love the look of them, but I already have plenty of unpainted miniatures to keep me busy for years to come.

Crazy Harborc
25-04-2009, 02:03
There are a growing number of good quality plastic 28mm minies available. You get more minies to make larger units....All for less than GW charges, for less minies.

Not fantasy minies, real world plastic minies. There ARE other companies making metal Orcs, Dwarves, undead, demons etc. The rulebooks are cheaper, the suppliments are too.;)

Only GW cares if you use "other minies". Yes GW has stores.....well they used to. (Ours closed in Janurary. GW, USA has a plan to increase interest and sales). FIRST they close all the Mill's Mall GW stores. No store means no inventory. No inventory means, no expenses....no salespeople, no rent.

Look at the money GW will save in the USA in 2009!! BUT, no stores will mean less sales. Less sales , no place for those local recruits to the GW hobby to play, to learn to paint...to buy more goodies.

There, there little tommy.......ALL that will be covered in the 2010 GW, USA plan.:rolleyes:

venus_redscar
25-04-2009, 03:10
My limit is at $40 for ten soldiers. And I'm a newb, but that price makes me just walk away.

starlight
25-04-2009, 03:12
This Thread again? :p

Long since passed mine. I get 99% of my stuff from trades/second hand these days. :D

Grapeshot
25-04-2009, 03:22
My limit is when my interest in the hobby last. Price determines my frequency of purchase over time. Once the price hike in the coming months, the puchasing frequency goes lower.

Bael
25-04-2009, 05:10
What's my limit, £25 for 10 man sized plastic models... that right there is my limit.
Same. I never though this day would come, but it has, right there.

Gen.Steiner
25-04-2009, 05:37
£25 for ten plastic models? They can **** right off. £18 for ten is bad enough! Hell, I remember buying a box of 20 skeletons (or Empire troops, or Chaos Warriors) for £10 only 9 years ago - you're not telling me inflation's increased 400%* for crying out loud!

* £25 for 10 = £50 for 20, £50 = 400% increase on £10...!!

Luthor
25-04-2009, 05:48
What's my limit? WHAT'S MY LIMIT!?!?!?!

They just hit my limit, sorry to say.

wilsonian
25-04-2009, 07:15
Think I'm repeating alot of people on here but GW have pretty much hit my limit - OK they get one more shopping trip out of me with the release of the new guard models but other than that I wont be starting any new projects any time soon. which is a shame as I'd love an ork army.

Earthbeard
25-04-2009, 10:12
I don't think comparing prices for historical miniatures to gamesworkshop are that great for comparisons.

I'm certainly a lot more likely to pay more for my GW stuff as I like it a lot more than historical, and other people are opposite etc, perceived worth/value right there.

This recent price rise and the cost specifically for the empire greatswords is finally beginning to price me out of the market - I buy a lot of stuff, most for armies I don't even play, for conversions etc...but now I'll be buying a lot less for sure.

How much less I can't really tell, but I rarely buy metals/blisters these days, as I prefer my easier plastic conversions to metal ones.

Vehicles I feel haven't really been worth the value for a long time (they only became worth the value recently for me with the Apoc bundle deals).

Codex/Books I'll still buy, i'm a tabletop rpg'er too, so completing collections for me is some kind of wierd nesting instinct - can't help myself.

cyphertheory
25-04-2009, 10:31
they certainly hit my limit. the changing of the guard models from 20 for £18 for 10 for £12 is just price gouging.

the greatswords are just pure fantasy if they think that is a good price point for the models.

sorry GW its been good, but you just lost my custom. ive got a nice big box of un painted minis that i will paint. and then im off. the unchartered seas looks like a nice game and reasonably priced, Hordes/warmachine also will be getting a look

i personally plead with GW, see sense. if your dedicated fans wont stand for this, then sooner or later the casual gamers and young kids parents wont either.

Belakor
25-04-2009, 11:33
I have no limit if the goods are good enough to justify the price.

The archers are fairly priced with all the stuff in the box, but the GS and the Stank are not.

So it varies, even for me who have cash to spend.

But I don't spend cash just because I can. I want something in return. The boxes mentioned (GS and Stank), don't give me that.

The problem this time around is that I actually think those who say they will stop and leave, will do so, and since there is no other game I am interested in, I will leave when it plummets and go back to playing video games now and then (unless GW see the errors of the pricing).

Sigh...

warhammergrimace
25-04-2009, 12:53
I'll play more historical, 28mm and some smaller scale. Tempted by Warlord ECW, as it could be used in an empire army.

logan054
25-04-2009, 12:57
who still thinks GW wont go under? You know i would really like to start a new army after the the warrior of chaos book, i alwas wanted to do a knights panther army using greatswords as knights on foot, not a chance at that price.

Cane
25-04-2009, 14:21
They've already exceeded my limit with this June price hike. When I can find comparable kits to GW for a fifth of the cost (and thats without the hike), thats a sure tell sign to stop buying.

I came back from third edition and introduced my brother to the hobby; this all happened around when I registered to Warseer. We spent around $250 on stuff online and a little over $100 to our LGS over the span of February to now and with my birthday around the corner I plan on doing one last splurge before stopping altogether.

I used to have a Praetorian army, Armored Company, and still have my Catachans. Even though the new IG battleforces are already set to debut with the price hike they're still the best deal for IG playes especially with the "new" 10 man box sets they are trying to push and I'm probably going to end up landing at least one of them.

I had the intention of picking up a Valkyrie but the unprofessional way they listed its price (they listed it at a cheaper price orginally on their site then proceeded to hike it up) and overall displeasure of how GW treats it customers has driven me away from the company.

After May I'm just going to continue what I've been doing for my IG vehicles; purchasing superior military kits that have better overall quality, design, detail, etc while being a fifth of GW's price.

I've never been to an official GW store but its this business model and that retail chain thats helping GW justify this price increase.

It'd be better for hobbyists such as myself and just about everyone if GW cut down or eliminate their chain altogether and get back into a business actually focused on models and the hobby rather than manipulating kids' parents.

kairous
25-04-2009, 16:43
I totally agree that this new range of empire stuff is overpriced, but, arn't we already paying the same price for 5 termies with only really the termies on the sprues no extras that i mnow of (unless your chaos), please don't flame me, im just looking at this from a different angle, because knowing our luck termies will be going up too.

After catching up with my own thread, lol, i have to say you guys are all right, our limits (well those of use who buy from GW still) have or will be reached by the june rise, Hell im already in the process of selling off models i no longer use or that i got for like nothing, yes GD mystery box im looking at you.

logan054
25-04-2009, 16:49
I certainly wouldnt pay that for a unit of termies, im pretty sure they were like £15/18 when i bought them. Im also pretty sure my tactical marines only cost £12 a box, i dont think i can bare to look at the prices anymore.

kairous
25-04-2009, 16:51
I certainly wouldnt pay that for a unit of termies, im pretty sure they were like £15/18 when i bought them. Im also pretty sure my tactical marines only cost £12 a box, i dont think i can bare to look at the prices anymore.

You and me both, I didn't realise how leanient i was being until i made this thread and saw other people fews on the GW price, many of my limits have severely come down now though.

as i said earlier, i usually pop into GW during my tea break once maybe twice a week, but i have not looked at the prices in months, next time im in, i will be though:mad:

logan054
25-04-2009, 16:58
I had looked at the website since last year, i was a tad shocked and what i saw, the empire hero costing the same as a terminator librarian..... Its a real sad because even if i wanted to fix my woc army i simply couldnt afford to spend the cash on the bits i need, especially with the current recession.

I think what makes it worse is when you look back at the costs of stuff during 2nd ed 40k and 4th ed warhammer.

kairous
25-04-2009, 17:12
I had looked at the website since last year, i was a tad shocked and what i saw, the empire hero costing the same as a terminator librarian..... Its a real sad because even if i wanted to fix my woc army i simply couldnt afford to spend the cash on the bits i need, especially with the current recession.

I think what makes it worse is when you look back at the costs of stuff during 2nd ed 40k and 4th ed warhammer.

I came across a GW catalogue from 2004 the other day.

compared the prices then with now :eek: i was shocked, if anyone is curious about the prices for that year, PM me and i will tell you. (ironically i came across catalogues for the following 3 years, im guessing they were stocking fillers from my folks)

logan054
25-04-2009, 17:14
I believe thats when blisters were packs of 3 troops, not sure if they were still £5, i remember they at first cut the amount of models per blister and then started raising the price.

kairous
25-04-2009, 17:16
I believe thats when blisters were packs of 3 troops, not sure if they were still £5, i remember they at first cut the amount of models per blister and then started raising the price.

I will dig it out again later, and maybe post some good ones up, if the mods think thats ok.:confused:

But, i wouldn't be suprised if you waht you said is quite the case.

logan054
25-04-2009, 17:22
well i cant remember if they started at 5 or 4 models, but i certainly remember them being £5, im sure at one point they went up to about 3 models for £7, i thought that was cheeky at the time, but i was younger and had little regard for money.

Hlokk
25-04-2009, 17:35
The new price hike is, again, hitting the top end of what I'm prepared to pay for GW models, but not for models in general.

£20 for a box of infantry seems reasonable, as long as its not coupled with a points drop for that unit (which GW seem eager to do at the drop of a hat)
again, £15 for stuff like cold one knights, empire handgunners and such isnt too bad for me, although I won't be starting skaven or undead any time soon.
Tanks: Any push over £25 for what I consider to be a "standard tank" (Russ, predator, falcon) and I won't buy it. I also flat out refuse to buy APCs.
Specialist stuff: Things like tau battlesuits and sentinals are already out of my price range because I dont feel i get decent value. The new sentinal kit is viable for me because Im getting more weapon options and greater posability, but battlesuits, blood knights and most packs of metal models are beyond what Im prepared to pay.

one thing I would pay good money for is Tom Kirby's head on a spike.

Alfie
25-04-2009, 18:01
I am generally more interested in the painting then playing (actually have never played a game of WH/40k) but i decided to collect an army for each system(WFB and 40K). So have gut a few models of Orks and Empire.

I have had to date a resonable amount of disposable income that i could spend on GW products. This is going to change due to the impending mini-me (due late july), with the mrs on maternity leave expenditure will be massively reduced and the prices as they were made it hard. This latest increase will make it very difficult for me to continue on.

I do have a fair stockpile of minitures and am a realy slow painter. So that should keep my going to the nipper hits its teens ;)

stashman
25-04-2009, 18:10
I buy the things I like.

I have bougth the troll and slayer GW staff christmas gift for around £100.

phoenixlaw
25-04-2009, 18:11
I'm not sure where my limit is.. I just know that £25 for 10 plastic models is past it.

I can't justify it to myself anymore

Luthor
25-04-2009, 18:22
Sadly, I was actually considering Empire for my second army. Now I have to scrap that idea, because I know if I start I will eventually buy the Greatswords, and we can't have that.

Hakar
25-04-2009, 18:30
My limit mostly depends on my income and expenses, and right now the only thing I would hesitate to buy is the Grey Knights Terminators box.

boogle
25-04-2009, 19:12
Also £30 for a ticket to Games Day is well beyond my limit, i on;y went last year because i received a free ticket

forthegloryofkazadekrund
25-04-2009, 20:01
I buy the things I like.

I have bougth the troll and slayer GW staff christmas gift for around £100.

Wow thats a lot, ive seen them go on Ebay for as little as a third of that - nice model though

whilewolf
25-04-2009, 22:13
Having left and then thought about coming back years latter I was expecting prices to have risen but I was shocked to see how far out of line with inflation they had risen.
As a painter rather then a gamer I was also not thrilled to see that Prices seemed to reflect its usefulness in the game rather then its material costs.
Now for the numbers id be willing to pay which I’m sure people will laugh at.
For one human sized infantry model in metal id pay £2.50
For a large metal monster id pay about £7
Once I saw their prices I just walked out the door and looked to eBay instead.

boogle
25-04-2009, 22:22
Having left and then thought about coming back years latter I was expecting prices to have risen but I was shocked to see how far out of line with inflation they had risen.
As a painter rather then a gamer I was also not thrilled to see that Prices seemed to reflect its usefulness in the game rather then its material costs.
Now for the numbers id be willing to pay which I’m sure people will laugh at.
For one human sized infantry model in metal id pay £2.50
For a large metal monster id pay about £7
Once I saw their prices I just walked out the door and looked to eBay instead.

I won't laugh as that's pretty realistic for a painter/modeller

Crazy Harborc
26-04-2009, 01:34
The GW, LoTRs bubble burst in 2005. Before then, in the USA the majority of GW prices went up at least every 12 months. Normally, quanities in boxes didn't go down too.

Today's new(er) GW plastics now cost as much as the metal ones that the plastic ones are replacing. Less pieces in a box mean a higher unit/each cost. Boxes with less in them are okay for the gamers who only need 2, 3 or 5 more to complete a unit. Having to spend 25 twice to get 10 or 20 minies to complete a whole unit IS bad news for anyone who is building up a new army.

I have been awaiting the release of the new improved(?) plastic Great Swords. No more. The price is way to high.....inflation?? No way!:mad:

Norsehawk
26-04-2009, 02:04
I have enough of almost everything so I don't need to buy anything except new releases. For example, with the upcoming guard codex, I will be buying:
1 codex
2 command squads
1-2 valkries as I need them.

As they come out, I will get at least one of the new Hellhound kits, and a new russ kit when they have the new turrets.

The infantry price increases won't bother me any since I have enough infantry to last a while, if not forever.

stonehorse
26-04-2009, 02:12
If those who say they will stop spending do, this should reduce GW's sales, which I think will have GW do what they have always done in that situation.

Increase prices, I look forward to seeing those Greatswords retail at £30+ in the future.

In all seriousness, I think that this action by GW has really caused a s*** storm, the future looks interesting.

Templar Ben
26-04-2009, 02:24
In all seriousness, I think that this action by GW has really caused a s*** storm, the future looks interesting.

I would say so. It is not like the normal chorus that is often critical of GW. We have people that before were very staunch supporters and very vocal about how GW needs to take this action or that action stating how this is bad.

When the "fanbois" and "haterz" agree you know a shift as occurred.

Crazy Harborc
26-04-2009, 02:53
I have not noticed too many posts about how newbies will make up for the numbers of dissatisfied GW gamers who walk away with this latest price hike.

The world (at least the Western) economy is hurting. Inflation is NOT the problem.

A large portion of the wargaming minies makers are reducing or have reduced prices. Some are having sales, lasting for weeks. Discount "clubs" are occuring too.

GW raises prices....Yeah THAT sure does make sense:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Reinholt
26-04-2009, 03:07
I concur.

This is what happens when you raise your prices in a recession; I know several companies (from the 2001 era) that are now out of business due to precisely this maneuver.

I hope GW re-thinks their move, and at the very least keeps prices stable (or, better yet, cuts them). I doubt they will. I think this will have a large negative long-term impact.

The bad part about that is that when companies go down, it is often a very quick demise. They are usually bought out or cut off by their creditors and left for dead. Drawn out proceedings like GM are actually comparatively rare. I would hope GW can put their business on the right course sooner rather than later; I do not believe they are in imminent danger (so no calling me a doomsayer), but I would prefer they not even flirt with the path that could take them there.

Thud
26-04-2009, 03:34
I just started up again a few months ago and I buy a lot less now than I did two-three years ago before I stopped, despite having much, much more disposable income now.

When I put my Tau army together I bought a lot of units just because I thought they were cool. As an example, I have ten Crisis Suits even though I've never used more than five in a game. Now, on the other hand, for my growing Eldar army, I'm only buying the stuff I expect to actually field. Ie, no Swooping Hawks or War Walkers even though I love the models.

Edonil
26-04-2009, 05:47
Seeing the price of the new Greatswords has completely killed any interest in Fantasy for me. The game isn't that much fun anymore, the 'power creep' has been pissing me off, especially since it isn't consistent (when daemon players complained of winning becoming boring, this was a bad sign for that book) and now, the models are way the hell overpriced. Yes, as far as Greatswords go, they are cheaper than the originals...barely. But this sets an extremely bad precedent.

For 40k, I've been paying a ton of money for the one army I'd wanted to do since I saw it out- Witch Hunters. But after having to invest hundreds of dollars US to get together my army (I got discounts and traded stuff and 500 points still cost me nearly $200) I have no interest in expanding, especially since, again, the game isn't that fun anymore. I did have an interest in doing a Phantine guard army, but since I needed $450 in vehicles alone, pre-price hike, I sure as hell am not interested in doing it after the price hike.

LOTR, however, especially with the new WotR rules, is fun, and (for a GW game) relatively inexpensive. I shudder to think how much my Morgul Knights are going to cost after the price hike (really hoping they just are skipped over, along with the other metals), but even a $5-$10 price hike, while annoying, wouldn't be so bad with things like Mordor Orcs, Morannon Orcs and suchlike. After all, $35 for 24 Morannon Orcs (assuming the high end of that price hike), while annoying, is still less of an infuriating thing than paying $35 for 10 Marines, which is less in terms of points, and model count.

So, I'll be moving even more firmly into the War of the Ring camp...it's still as pricey as any version of this hobby, but it's still better than the direction Fantasy and 40k are taking in terms of how much an effective or even mildly playable army costs.

chivalrous
26-04-2009, 10:16
I'm not sure that I entirely disagree with the way that GW prices a model in relation to its points cost rather than production cost.

Look at it this way, ideally, if everything was priced in relation to its points cost, everybody would be paying roughly the same each for army. I know it doesn't always work that way but bear with me.

Back in 1996, I was in a gaming group at school that consisted of about 30 people and out of those thirty, about two thirds were Marine players of various persuasion (including chaos), and the other third was mostly Eldar with maybe a couple of Ork players and a Tyranid player.

Then, Marines were popular, not because they were the easiest army to play with (Eldar had that particular trophy), but because they were the cheapest to collect, what with plastic tac squads to build your army up from.
No one collected Guard because it cost a fortune to build the army up, everything apart from the tanks were metal!.
Horde Orks and 'Nids were a fair challenge but at least with both of those armies there were plastic troop sets (Boyz and Genestealers respectively).

So it seemed somewhat obvious when 3rd edition came round and the new plastics were released that the squad boxes themselves were the same price but the number of models inside were different (10 marines to 16 Dark Eldar for instance)
It meant that more people were likely to collect horde armies than had done in the past and that armies would concentrate more on troops than on the cheap plastic vehicles to fill points requirements.

That's the dream anyway. Sadly, certainly from what I've been reading about the new Guard models, the pricing structure seems to be slipping back into the 1990's format; Only this time there aren't any cheap plastic alternatives available.

Ultimate Life Form
26-04-2009, 10:54
I'm not sure that I entirely disagree with the way that GW prices a model in relation to its points cost rather than production cost.

Look at it this way, ideally, if everything was priced in relation to its points cost, everybody would be paying roughly the same each for army. I know it doesn't always work that way but bear with me.

Back in 1996, I was in a gaming group at school that consisted of about 30 people and out of those thirty, about two thirds were Marine players of various persuasion (including chaos), and the other third was mostly Eldar with maybe a couple of Ork players and a Tyranid player.

Then, Marines were popular, not because they were the easiest army to play with (Eldar had that particular trophy), but because they were the cheapest to collect, what with plastic tac squads to build your army up from.
No one collected Guard because it cost a fortune to build the army up, everything apart from the tanks were metal!.
Horde Orks and 'Nids were a fair challenge but at least with both of those armies there were plastic troop sets (Boyz and Genestealers respectively).

So it seemed somewhat obvious when 3rd edition came round and the new plastics were released that the squad boxes themselves were the same price but the number of models inside were different (10 marines to 16 Dark Eldar for instance)
It meant that more people were likely to collect horde armies than had done in the past and that armies would concentrate more on troops than on the cheap plastic vehicles to fill points requirements.

That's the dream anyway. Sadly, certainly from what I've been reading about the new Guard models, the pricing structure seems to be slipping back into the 1990's format; Only this time there aren't any cheap plastic alternatives available.

So you encourage GW to be greedy? This pricing scheme is ridiculous, it serves nothing but giving GW undeserved money. I have no idea what the production cost is, but let´s go for an extreme. Let´s say they release a cardboard kit with which you can build a Steam tank. Yes, cardboard. Thick paper. Production cost: I´m sure well below 10 €. Would you still encourage GW to charge 45,50€ for it, and, what´s more important, happily pay it? There´s a limit. Value for money, not points!

On the other hands, that would mean they´d have to throw Gnoblar and Skaven Slave kits at you as soon as you enter the shop. You buy something for 10€, you get one free, for 20€, 2, and for 50€, you get even three thrown in! They could never cover the production cost this way. Thus, they WILL charge you 30€ for it, even though they´re worthless pointswise.

I would call such a pricing policy CHEATING THE CUSTOMER, and I´d sure as hell have bought my last GW product.

Alfie
26-04-2009, 14:58
So you encourage GW to be greedy? This pricing scheme is ridiculous, it serves nothing but giving GW undeserved money. I have no idea what the production cost is, but let´s go for an extreme. Let´s say they release a cardboard kit with which you can build a Steam tank. Yes, cardboard. Thick paper. Production cost: I´m sure well below 10 €. Would you still encourage GW to charge 45,50€ for it, and, what´s more important, happily pay it? There´s a limit. Value for money, not points!

On the other hands, that would mean they´d have to throw Gnoblar and Skaven Slave kits at you as soon as you enter the shop. You buy something for 10€, you get one free, for 20€, 2, and for 50€, you get even three thrown in! They could never cover the production cost this way. Thus, they WILL charge you 30€ for it, even though they´re worthless pointswise.

I would call such a pricing policy CHEATING THE CUSTOMER, and I´d sure as hell have bought my last GW product.

It could actually make sense (for GW) to price per model if it equated to how many of that model you had in your army.

Assuming that production costs for each model is the same then you would need to charge more per model for those models that people would collect less of (normally the higher point cost models), as you would need to cover production costs with less sales.

zetaplus
26-04-2009, 15:42
I think the Greatswords and steam tank have been my big wakeup call. When the price for a 10 man special plastic unit jumps $29AU ($40 for Temple Guard, Grave Guard and Black Orcs) to $69, and a chariot base sized Steam Tank costs asmuch as a Valkyrie, things are getting a bit too silly for my liking. Fortunately I still have Privateer games, and Flames Of War to waste my money on!

chivalrous
26-04-2009, 16:01
So you encourage GW to be greedy?

No, not at all. I was just trying to address the issue of price per point and that it works out farer for all players if everybody pays roughly the same for a X thousand point army.



I would call such a pricing policy CHEATING THE CUSTOMER, and I´d sure as hell have bought my last GW product.
What you might be failing to realise is that the rules are, to some extent, part of the product.

If GW were just selling fantasy figurines to sit on a shelf and look pretty then I'd agree that cost should be directly related to weight and material. But they're part of a much larger product.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
26-04-2009, 16:13
Aye I have to fall in with a lot of folks here and say the line has just been reached for me as well. £25 for the Greatswords is quite unbelievable, Its also woken me up to some other prices which are really on the line as well.

Okay my current finances means I haven't the spare income to buy much GW product anyway, but I stopped buying every army book/codex at least four years ago. Which as another RPG collector (hiya Earthbeard ;) ) I've always found it hard to accept, but sadly its either a codex of an army I don't own, or some extra figs atm.

It has allowed some painting time, (my chaos Marines are loooking great thanks to it tbh) and thanks to my love of creating scenery; I have plenty to do. However I do find it is odd to a guy who used to have a 10K Empire army, 10K Guard, 6K Druchii, and at least 2K of every other army GW produced. (Except Necrons and Tomb Kings, never been a fan of either.) To find myself with two what I would consider small forces, about 2K Chaos Marines, and 1k Druchii, plus some spare Orks at around the 1k mark neither I or the wife has claimed, mainly thanks to AoBR.

At the moment its seems I'll be continuing to finish my current Chaos 40k force/project and add to my Dark Elves when I can. Although it does seem I'm putting more time and energy into WoW than tabletop gaming. Which is sad really when I consider I don't really have anything to show for it at the end of the day other than some pixels on a server somewhere. It is a hell of a lot cheaper on the wallet though.

I do have to wonder what the prices will be when my eldest son is old enough to be shown how to play 40K and get his first army. Probably in about 4-5years, I dread to think really.

Ultimate Life Form
26-04-2009, 16:24
If GW were just selling fantasy figurines to sit on a shelf and look pretty then I'd agree that cost should be directly related to weight and material. But they're part of a much larger product.

Yes, but this would come down to "we make it expansive because we WANT it to be."

What kind of message is that? It is a well known fact that the price of a product must be in some correlation to it´s value, like rarity of ingredients, quality of processing and so on.

Imagine the following situation: You go to your favorite restaurant. It has the best food around, and you´re really looking forward to it. You sit down and have your favorite dish. I don´t know what it is, but for example´s sake, let´s say it´s a steak. Just a normal steak with fries. Quite good, but just a steak. After you´re finished, the waiter will present you a bill, and you are quite shocked to find out the steak costs 100£. Grudgingly, you pay and ask the waiter:

"What the heck?:wtf: What kind of steak was that? Was it from the last pig on earth or something?"
"No, good sir. Just an ordinary steak with fries."
"Then why in blazes do you charge 100£ for it?"
And the waiter replies,
"Because we think that´s what you SHOULD pay for it."

Would you ever visit that restaurant again?

Angelwing
26-04-2009, 17:17
It could actually make sense (for GW) to price per model if it equated to how many of that model you had in your army.

Assuming that production costs for each model is the same then you would need to charge more per model for those models that people would collect less of (normally the higher point cost models), as you would need to cover production costs with less sales.


GW have been doing this for years. This is why special characters and things like assassins etc are so expensive in relation to their weight. People generally only buy one each so they have to have a higher price to make the same % of money back as commonly bought items.

Alfie
26-04-2009, 17:19
Yes, but this would come down to "we make it expansive because we WANT it to be."

What kind of message is that? It is a well known fact that the price of a product must be in some correlation to it´s value, like rarity of ingredients, quality of processing and so on.

Imagine the following situation: You go to your favorite restaurant. It has the best food around, and you´re really looking forward to it. You sit down and have your favorite dish. I don´t know what it is, but for example´s sake, let´s say it´s a steak. Just a normal steak with fries. Quite good, but just a steak. After you´re finished, the waiter will present you a bill, and you are quite shocked to find out the steak costs 100£. Grudgingly, you pay and ask the waiter:

"What the heck?:wtf: What kind of steak was that? Was it from the last pig on earth or something?"
"No, good sir. Just an ordinary steak with fries."
"Then why in blazes do you charge 100£ for it?"
And the waiter replies,
"Because we think that´s what you SHOULD pay for it."

Would you ever visit that restaurant again?

You are ignoring the sales quantities. GW will sell less models for the higher point models as you need less of them in the game. So they need to charge more to cover their initial costs (mold, design etc).

As for the restaurant example it doesnt really compare. You are comparing something has no large start up costs that need to be covered to a product that has.

whilewolf
26-04-2009, 17:57
You are ignoring the sales quantities. GW will sell less models for the higher point models as you need less of them in the game. So they need to charge more to cover their initial costs (mold, design etc).

As for the restaurant example it doesnt really compare. You are comparing something has no large start up costs that need to be covered to a product that has.

Your making a couple of assumptions there yourself firstly that most GW customers are buying models to play with and not to paint this might be true but if it is true it’s to some extent a self fulfilling prophecy if their best models are reserved for high points costs characters then painters are going to be reluctant to buy at the higher cost that reflect game usefulness.
The second assumption is that every model must return a profit why shouldn’t some units subsidize others?

simonr1978
26-04-2009, 19:02
Yes, but this would come down to "we make it expansive because we WANT it to be."

What kind of message is that? It is a well known fact that the price of a product must be in some correlation to it´s value, like rarity of ingredients, quality of processing and so on.

Imagine the following situation: You go to your favorite restaurant. It has the best food around, and you´re really looking forward to it. You sit down and have your favorite dish. I don´t know what it is, but for example´s sake, let´s say it´s a steak. Just a normal steak with fries. Quite good, but just a steak. After you´re finished, the waiter will present you a bill, and you are quite shocked to find out the steak costs 100£. Grudgingly, you pay and ask the waiter:

"What the heck?:wtf: What kind of steak was that? Was it from the last pig on earth or something?"
"No, good sir. Just an ordinary steak with fries."
"Then why in blazes do you charge 100£ for it?"
And the waiter replies,
"Because we think that´s what you SHOULD pay for it."

Would you ever visit that restaurant again?

I'd be more than a little ticked that my "Steak" came from a pig. Unless I'd specifically ordered otherwise, I'd assume that an "Ordinary Steak" meant cow.

I don't understand though why it would be so hard to balance the costs throughout the range, that was IIRC the case during RT at any rate where models were blistered or sold 3 for 3.99 for example, regardless of whether they were, say, an ordinary rank and file Marine (Dozens per army) or a Marine Captain (0-1 per army). I know things have changed and generally characters are bigger with more detail and accessories than their rank and file subordinates, but not as much as their price tag indicates.

Alfie
26-04-2009, 19:25
Your making a couple of assumptions there yourself firstly that most GW customers are buying models to play with and not to paint this might be true but if it is true it’s to some extent a self fulfilling prophecy if their best models are reserved for high points costs characters then painters are going to be reluctant to buy at the higher cost that reflect game usefulness.
The second assumption is that every model must return a profit why shouldn’t some units subsidize others?

True, i made a few assumptions but most of what has been said in this thread is based on assumptions or emotions. We dont have the sales figures or production costs of the models so a lot of these threads are based on assumption and emotions.

But even if a fair number are bought to paint i would assume (again just my thoughts, no facts - they just get in the way ;)) that the lower point cost (troops) models bought still outnumber the higher cost ones.

And yes they may cross subsidise between some product lines and for all we know this could already be happening. Though i would argue that GW would look at the products that are losing money and consider dropping them (as GW have been doing cost cutting over the last few years).

My main argument though was against the post that said GW are charging more for a model just because they want to. My argument was that there could be a legitimate business reason and not to specifically 'cheat' the buyer.

boogle
26-04-2009, 19:57
My main argument though was against the post that said GW are charging more for a model just because they want to. My argument was that there could be a legitimate business reason and not to specifically 'cheat' the buyer.

Why then are other miniatures companies of all hues either keeping their prices stable due to the current climate, holding sales to generate enough business to balance the books, or even dropping their prices?

Hlokk
26-04-2009, 20:08
Why then are other miniatures companies of all hues either keeping their prices stable due to the current climate, holding sales to generate enough business to balance the books, or even dropping their prices?
Such as?

Not being funny, I just fancy throwing my cash in another direction.

phoenixlaw
26-04-2009, 20:10
Reaper miniatures recently announced price cuts due to reduced cost of metal and petrol.

phoenixlaw
26-04-2009, 20:11
Also privateer press is a cheaper alternative, as is historical gaming (the cheapest armies available)

BDJV
26-04-2009, 20:28
Also privateer press is a cheaper alternative, as is historical gaming (the cheapest armies available)
Historical gaming I agree is cheaper, but PP is not really cheaper than GW. Their per model cost is really close or on par with GW's.

DarthFreder
26-04-2009, 20:35
Historical gaming I agree is cheaper,
Depends on hwo large your army will be...;):D

Edonil
26-04-2009, 20:42
And while Warmachine and Hordes do have a smaller model count per army, the expense involved in such units is extraordinary. Beyond that, the game relies even more on the 'new fancy unit trumps all' ideas than Warhammer Fantasy and 40k...

BDJV
26-04-2009, 20:47
Depends on hwo large your army will be...;):D

Sure, but think of the saving per model of such a large historical army compared to GW models!! :p Hell maybe you can built two full armies of historical opponents for the price of one GW army! There are many reasonable gems in the historical market. :D

boogle
26-04-2009, 21:31
Such as?

Not being funny, I just fancy throwing my cash in another direction.

Warlord and the Perrys have stabilised their prices, granted they went up slghtly late last year/earlier this, but they won't be raising them, and Warlord offer Army deals across their ranges. Victorix offer multi part Napoleonics in hard plastic (40 models for £20)

For Sci-Fi, Urban War and Metropolis are relatively low outlay projects

TheDarkDuke
26-04-2009, 22:48
Close to what they may be re-approaching. They adjusted a ton of plastic kits downward as anyone buying anything in Canada was paying 25-50% more then the cost of the US/UK thats with shipping included! So the price adjustments were needed, they are still more often then not 2-15$ more per single metal model to plastic kit. Right where it needs to be for sales and dollar differences. If these increases are even marginally correct Canadian sales are going right back where they were when you would be a complete idiot to buy in Canada. Based on the adjustments/comparisons in the upcoming IG/Empire prices... be thankful your increases are only gonig to be 3 pounds. Those 3 pounds which is about $5-5.50 look to be an increase of $10 here in Canada so the road of never buying any models in Canada may just happen. So I would assume the following from GW main markets:

Continental Europe: Little to No affect to sales.
United States: Moderate to Little to no affect.
United Kingdom: Moderate to Little affect to sales.
Canada: Moderate affect to sales.
Australia/New Zealand: Moderate to Little affect to sales.

Billpete002
27-04-2009, 04:48
What I find funny is GW employees get a 50% discount on all GW items and even then they aren't even close to marginal costs.

Let's face it - GW is almost a monopoly when it comes to share of the market - no other miniature company comes close to the amount of followers.

That said GW can charge a monopoly price (or pretty darn close to one). Which is why even in a deflationary recession their prices can still go up. It is almost no different than the situation in OS for computers just look at Linux/Mac/etc. compared to Microsoft.

As for that steak comparison it was off entirely - a steak and fries IS normal. You can go to almost any restaurant and get something close ALSO there are substitutes - you're out of steaks and fries? okay, I'll have the <insert food>.

Games Workshop miniatures are not that easily substituted (and is a luxury good) - Imperial Guard, Bretonnians, Empire, Chaos etc. sure - but when you start to head into let's say Space Marines - there are very few models out there that you could use. Non-Imperial tanks, Eldar, etc. etc.

It really all comes down to whether you accept the new higher prices in a recession (a deflationary one at that) or not. Since most people on here do not seem to accept than the only likely outcomes are to buy from another miniature company or not at all (paintball, skiing, or saving your money for when things get worse).

Ultimate Life Form
27-04-2009, 05:38
Having the monopoly means you can charge whatever price you want, but it does not mean you should.

When GW decide to price their pewter minis like they´re made from gold, and think plastic toy soldiers are the pinacle of luxury, then I´m sure not many customers will follow.

This game is aimed at teens and students and not at Bill Gates and Paris Hilton. I think GW should remember this for their own sake.

Codsticker
27-04-2009, 06:10
So i thought why not have a thread discussing how far everyone is willing to go before they hit their limit.



I think I may have already hit my limit; I have declined starting a couple of new armys due to the cost and I don't feel like piecing them together from second hand models Like I do with my current armys.

If I start another army it will be for a different system: Flames of War or WAB (or both-we will see:)).

Harry
27-04-2009, 07:09
Having the monopoly means you can charge whatever price you want, but it does not mean you should.
... and it does not mean that customers will pay that price.

Hrafn
27-04-2009, 08:41
Indeed which is why I tried to be fair in my post. Yup, trolls get shafted by the costs, an army of mid based models is very steep. That is one high example. I play Cryx so fall somewhere in the middle. My Biles and Mechs are cheap, my banes less so... so I averaged the costs. The fewer inf you take the cheaper it tends to get (although the newer models are better sculpts and higher part counts so higher cost overall.
I am a big PP fan these days, having played GW for 14 years, and I agree they are priced about the same (I even said so in my post) but consider myself a fanboi for neither so perhaps playing the "we all hate GW card" was unnecessary?

I think that we are in about the same position. I have also been in the Hobby for many years, but have lately drifted more towards PP. Though I enjoy both games and both mini ranges, so I don't really have any of that emotional attachment to either so often seen on these boards. I reacted to your post because I have become a bit allergic to said emotional rants (not saying in any way that yours was) and have made it kind of a principle to answer to all threads with the PP vs. GW pricing subject comes up ;)
For some twisted reason, I find great pleasure in pointing out the cost of my Trollbloods, since it shows that other companies can have commercial strategies which would be brand "eeeeevul" if GW used them. In truth, I still buy TB minis, but some of them DO strain my acceptance of what I want to spend on minis. But, ah, then I have my Legion to make up for that:D

In relation to GW and spending limits, I'd say that spending time with PP price has extended my limit. I went back to 40K for a while, and I actually felt GW minis to be cheap compared to what I was used to :eek: But if GW prices raise to PP levels, I would probably still buy, but I would certainly buy less...

On another, but related, note, I'd say that GW is actually better for impulse buys than PP. The reason lies with the way they package the minis. The reason being that substantial ("core") additions to your WM/Hordes army are quite expensive, especially if it is infantry, since you need to buy a box to get the card and the unit leader, the initial cost is quite high. You can easier build a GW army gradually with smaller over-time investments IMHO.


It would appear that it greatly depends on location as far as PP price as well.

Perhaps we shouldn't use them as an example since they are far cheaper where I am and more expensive where you are.
Just saying we can end up talking in circles since our environments are different.

Indeed. PP prices vary a lot. Just to whine a little bit more, I can add that local prices for them here equals the numeric value in dollars, but in POUNDS! So no whining from Brits, please ;) Though I have taken great pleasure in the exchange rate between pound and Euro lately. My expenses on PP minis have risen dramatically in the last few months - hooray for Internet dealers!

However, I don't think that local differences in prices should prevent us from discussing it. It's the about the same with GW price differences in Europe, the US and especially down under - which I can understand is really horrendous....

Foolish Mortal
27-04-2009, 09:16
Earlier in this thread I posted my answer to what my limit was as 'when the price outweiged my desire to own it'.

The new Great Swords & Stank have reached that point.

I would certainly Have picked up a box of the Swords for the bits, and at least 2 - 3 Stanks (1 to build & a couple for the bits), but at these prices - no *******' way, not even from discounters.

I won't say that this will kill all my purchasing from GW, but it will be a lot, lot less than now.

boogle
27-04-2009, 10:21
As a background player, the Stannk should be made from Platinum and priced at £500 per tank as there are only meant to be 8 in existance.

W0lf
27-04-2009, 11:01
I and a number of my gaming group were excited about WoTR but due to price no one plays it. Literally one person brought a WoTR army and a few people had large collections previously.

The price of IG pre-release put me off as the cost of 20 Guard +2 heavy weapons is too high per pts imo. Had they made the new box set £12 with a heavy weapon id have considered it. My guard army has over 200 models and 20 heavy weapons... not in my life time will i pay £320 for my infantry. And after the june price this is rumoured to eb an outstanding £440!!!! FOR EXACTLKY THE SAME PRODUCT. Thats disgusting.

Likewise im apalled at the price of the new greatswords.

Ive always brought from my local but come june ill be buying soley online. Assuming i still find it worth the price.

TBH i cant see GW making it past June 2010 at this rate. With vets cutting spending and ALOT of potential new players being put off they will be losing out. Hell if LoTR boxes were still £12 my store would likey have made ~£500 sales but instead its £0.

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 11:13
I've reached my limit for Games Workshop pricing and spending for the current period of time. I won't have more than 2 armies for any system that I own and when i have the 2 armies I won't collect more than can fit inside a large carry case (well aside from my Dark Elves). Due to the current prices I don't think i'll break my current way of operating and unless I eBay one of my armies, which is very unlikely that will hold true. When WoTR came out, I briefly considered expanding to playing that but then I realised that realistically I can only play so many armies in so many systems. Why spend money on something that won't be used to it's maximum utility.

Osbad
27-04-2009, 11:46
I don't think comparing prices for historical miniatures to gamesworkshop are that great for comparisons.

I'm certainly a lot more likely to pay more for my GW stuff as I like it a lot more than historical, and other people are opposite etc, perceived worth/value right there.

Sure historicals don't make a valid demand-side comparison. There is limited overlap between historical gamers and GW players. Although i am one of those overlappers.

Also, historical IP exists in a very different space to GW's IP - so there are different levels of competition at work here.

But they make and excellent comparitor for supply-side, or cost-side evaluation.

These are very similar products, made using the same technologies and skill sets to produce. Yet we find that the smaller, more labour-intensive, less able to capitalise on economies of scale companies are able to sell plastic and metal models at a small fraction of GW's selling price? If that doesn't tell you something about GW management's contemptuous view of their customers then I don't know what will? GW posting dog-poo through your letterbox?

spaint2k
27-04-2009, 11:48
I've already posted in this thread, but I thought I'd make a personal update.

I was in the process of starting a tyranid army, having already gotten my hands on a number of gaunts off a friend. I have also got some raveners coming in the mail because I'd decided to order a Trygon from Forge World (I like resin better than plastic).

However, in light of the new improved prices which we STILL don't know anywhere near enough about, I've decided to cancel my Forge World order and NOT buy anything else for my 'nids. The raveners might end up on eBay at this rate.

Steve

Max_Killfactor
27-04-2009, 12:29
I've reached my limit. I was planning to start a Tau army to hold me over until Dark Eldar come out, now I'm just repainting my old DE models.

Any chance of WotR just died in my group.

Whenever new Skaven come out, I'll buy the book but not much else. I'll stick with my metal stormvermin and monkey hands clanrats.

These price increases combined with GWs new super secret policies about upcoming releases have really turned me off. No one's really sure what the next Fantasy army is even though LM came out 2 months ago. People think Skaven, but nothing from GW. Similar situation in 40k, people think Space Wolves, but no ones sure.

Frustrating.

Hrafn
27-04-2009, 12:37
Sure historicals don't make a valid demand-side comparison. There is limited overlap between historical gamers and GW players. Although i am one of those overlappers.
Also, historical IP exists in a very different space to GW's IP - so there are different levels of competition at work here.
But they make and excellent comparitor for supply-side, or cost-side evaluation.
These are very similar products, made using the same technologies and skill sets to produce. Yet we find that the smaller, more labour-intensive, less able to capitalise on economies of scale companies are able to sell plastic and metal models at a small fraction of GW's selling price? If that doesn't tell you something about GW management's contemptuous view of their customers then I don't know what will? GW posting dog-poo through your letterbox?

I think that the really interesting part is not between GW and the small companies, but between all the companies with rules and more coherent/developed retail-oriented products and the small mostly internet-based companies, as it is between these catagories that the true price gap exists. The former catagory includes GW, PP, Rackham, Battlefront, Reaper, Asmodee, Avatars of War and probably some more I have forgotten. The latter catagory includes Warlord (which interestreringly enough straddles the border to the other catagory), Hasselfree, Black Tree, Old Glory, Victrix and more. Turning away from GW as the exception with their retail chain, it is still clear how having in-house game systems apparently automatically result in substantial more overhead on the minis. Perhaps not surprisingly, really :)

Osbad is true in that the latter catagory contains a great deal of businesses oriented towards historical gaming. IMHO, they have also had a quality issue, and very few of the minis from the small "historical" companies have held a candle to anything GW, PP or Rackham could produce. I am delighted with the development during the last year or two, as we have seen an explosion of small companies, many of which produce minis of good quality and often considerably cheaper than GW. I don't much about the specifics, but it seems that the equipment to produce plastic minis have become much cheaper, since businesses manufacturing such minis are popping up all over the place. That's good, since GW needs competition in this area. GW has for a long time been market leader with a virtual monopoly in the plastics area. But then again, competetion has never prevented GW from raising prices ;)

Templar Ben
27-04-2009, 12:47
I've already posted in this thread, but I thought I'd make a personal update.

I was in the process of starting a tyranid army, having already gotten my hands on a number of gaunts off a friend. I have also got some raveners coming in the mail because I'd decided to order a Trygon from Forge World (I like resin better than plastic).

However, in light of the new improved prices which we STILL don't know anywhere near enough about, I've decided to cancel my Forge World order and NOT buy anything else for my 'nids. The raveners might end up on eBay at this rate.

Steve

Did you tell them why you were canceling?

spaint2k
27-04-2009, 12:49
Did you tell them why you were canceling?

Unfortunately I didn't. I called them from work and it slipped my mind.

I feel like a bit of a numbskull for that, really.

Steve

AmBlam
27-04-2009, 15:52
I'm going to buy some stuff before the prices go up then just a few bits and bobs and that will be it.

Mannimarco
27-04-2009, 16:18
i already way past my limit, im using this indy trader i found on ebay (if anybody interested give me a pm and ill find their ebay store)
got 4 BNIB ork battlewagons for £80, 10 MA nobs for £60, Ghazhkul for £12

all adds up but still a hell of a lot cheaper than GW for the exact same models

Dwarf Supreme
27-04-2009, 17:27
I should preface my stating that I only play Epic, but I reached my limit long ago. I haven't bought a brand new mini in over a decade. The only current ones I have were given as gift. Even then they purchased by a former GW employee who of course used his employee discount. I understand that prices need to increase due to inflation, but when the Reaver Titan was first released it was $8 US. Now for Armageddon, the exact same model is $40 US. Don't even the cost of materials and inflation are solely to blame for a 500% increase in price. The same applies for the Eldar Titans. Same models as the originals, exorbitant price. At this point I only buy second hand minis or trade for new ones.

chivalrous
27-04-2009, 18:26
Yes, but this would come down to "we make it expansive because we WANT it to be."

Yes and I want it to be expansive, I want to see a greater number of players able to field horde armies and not have to spend double what a space marine player would spend on an army of equal points cost. I want to see a greater variety of the types of armies seen on the tabletop without price being too great a restriction in the style of army you choose to play.

Okay. In the simplest terms I can manage. Please understand that all prices are arbitrary figures. their accuracy isn't important, what is important are the proportions involved.

I am suggesting that every army costs the same amount:
a 2000 point Orc and Goblin costs £100;
a 2000 point Dark Elf army costs £100,
a 2000 point Chaos Warrior army costs £100,
a 2000 point Empire army costs £100
a 2000 point High Elf army costs £100
a 2000 point Wood Elf army costs £100
a 2000 point Beasts army costs £100
a 2000 point Vampire counts army costs £100
a 2000 point Daemons army costs £100
a 2000 point Skaven army costs £100
a 2000 point Dwarf army costs £100
a 2000 point Lizardmen army costs £100
a 2000 point Brettonian army costs £100
a 2000 point Tomb Kings costs £100

Is that not somewhat fairer than say a 2000 point Daemons of Chaos army that costs £70 against a Goblin army that costs £130. Lets forget, for the moment, the respective problems of the respective army books.

Or a 2000 point infantry based Guard that costs £150 against a 2000 point Necron army that might cost £100

Whatever GW's pricing philosophy, they're going to make it expensive. Regardless of whether it's purely a price-per-model system, a price-per-point system or a compromise between the two.
The problem with a pure price-per-model system, the more difficult it gets for players to experiment with things like horde lists. Over time it will get to the stage that the only armies people are collecting are the ones with the fewest models such as Space Marines, Necrons, Steel Legions and Godzilla 'Nids. Not the greatest variety.

simonr1978
27-04-2009, 18:52
Is that not somewhat fairer than say a 2000 point daemons of Chaos army that costs £70 against a Skaven army that costs £130


Doesn't seem particularly fair to me, not only is the Skaven player getting more figures for his money but it seems that the Chaos player (In your example above) is having to subsidise the Skaven player's army.

The way I see it, it's a choice you knowingly make when you choose a horde army; you are going to have to buy more figures (And therefore probably spend more money), if you don't like that, don't choose a horde.

Reinholt
27-04-2009, 19:01
Regarding pricing everything identically:

Producing models, compared to food, is capital intensive.

If I want to design a new model, let's say it will cost me 10,000 pounds to set up production, and then 1 pound per model after that. Priced uniformly at 10 pounds per model, I would need to sell 1,112 models to cross into a profit.

In our totally trivial example, this means that models that would sell less than 1,112 would never get made. Given that these are much lower than actual costs, what this indicates is that making characters would be stupid, and GW would want to mass produce basic units only.

Now, let us also consider the situation where we price by point value. Skaven Slaves, for example, are extremely cheap. Say 1/2 pound per model. Since our production cost is still going to be roughly similar, at 1 pound per model, we could never make a profit! The smart decision would be not to make this model at all.

Pricing does need to incorporate the potential sales and cost of setting up production. It might not be the only concern, but without that factored in at all, some very weird things would happen.

Ozorik
27-04-2009, 20:03
Skaven Slaves, for example, are extremely cheap. Say 1/2 pound per model. Since our production cost is still going to be roughly similar, at 1 pound per model, we could never make a profit!

They would, theoretically, make exactly the same profit. They are much cheaper in points cost so more of them would be fielded (and therefore bought).

While a nice idea 'pounds for points' simply wouldn't work as it would just create friction between gamers. A coherent and logical pricing system would be a much more intuitive and fairer. X for an infantry box, Y for a cavlary box, Z for a character etc. In other words the current system that GW, and every one else, uses. Some armies will always be more cash intensive in the same way that some armies will take more effort to paint or to use on the table.


That's good, since GW needs competition in this area. GW has for a long time been market leader with a virtual monopoly in the plastics area

This isn't true. GW has made a good showing in terms of plastic infantry over the last few years (although the gap is narrowing). GW's vehicle models are woeful when compared to Tamiya for instance.


As a background player, the Stannk should be made from Platinum and priced at £500 per tank as there are only meant to be 8 in existance.

If only.

Crazy Harborc
28-04-2009, 01:53
When push comes to shove......IMHO, GW is still basing many of it's prices on the expected number of sales of a given item. If it looks like a whatever will be very popular, GW prices the whatever a bit higher to generate a higher cash flow on the whatever item.

iamfanboy
28-04-2009, 02:22
When push comes to shove......IMHO, GW is still basing many of it's prices on the expected number of sales of a given item. If it looks like a whatever will be very popular, GW prices the whatever a bit higher to generate a higher cash flow on the whatever item.
The problem is that they do exactly the opposite as well: If they expect an object to sell less, then they put the price higher.


We might as well just cut out the rhetoric and say, "They raise the price higher."

cttran77
28-04-2009, 02:37
Pricing does need to incorporate the potential sales and cost of setting up production. It might not be the only concern, but without that factored in at all, some very weird things would happen.

Fair enough, pricing needs to be a function of the amount of potential sales, but there's a negative feedback loop here because the amount of potential sales is also a function of the pricing. Based on my own observations, an increase in price by 25% will decrease sales by more than 20% (1.25 x 0.8 = 1).

The real trajedy is that things like the new plastic greatswords or that $300 modular game board could have been real gold mines, but they'll probably sell poorly compared to their potential, and GW will think there's no market for them.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-04-2009, 10:02
Fair enough, pricing needs to be a function of the amount of potential sales, but there's a negative feedback loop here because the amount of potential sales is also a function of the pricing.

Well its the same in 40K with the Imperial Vs Xenos releases too. Marines are much more popular but its impossible to know if this is due to inherent appeal or because they've been included in every starter box, get the most frequent rules updates and model releases, have the most extensive plastic range and are cheap to create an army from.

GW obviously think they're not making enough money at the moment so they're going to attempt to compensate by increasing prices, this strategy keeps failing them though. They need a new strategy as atempting to find an optimum pricing point and find peoples' limits is a silly MO when your business strategy relies on word of mouth.

Reinholt
28-04-2009, 16:50
They would, theoretically, make exactly the same profit. They are much cheaper in points cost so more of them would be fielded (and therefore bought).

You need to go back and re-read my example if you think you can make a profit, ever, by charging 1/2 pound for a model that costs 1 pound to make.

:p

iamfanboy
28-04-2009, 20:14
You need to go back and re-read my example if you think you can make a profit, ever, by charging 1/2 pound for a model that costs 1 pound to make.

:p
On the other hand, if you charge 4 pounds for a model that cost 1 pound to make, and no one bought them, would you make any profit either? :cool:

Ozorik
28-04-2009, 20:27
You need to go back and re-read my example if you think you can make a profit, ever, by charging 1/2 pound for a model that costs 1 pound to make.


How dare you imply that my reading comprehension is anything less than impecable.

I clearly though that these miniatures cost 1 Egytptian pound to make. So if sold for 0.5 pound sterling would make a handsome 250% profit.

It had nothing to do with late night posting at all.

Grand Warlord
28-04-2009, 20:30
Outside what I need for a tournament legal list for the current edition I really don't get around to buying much more than that. Or if I do it is those times of the year when you get an extra paycheck or income tax refunds. I buy a lot of the black library novels but its 50/50 on if its worth it on a lot of the mechandise.

Crazy Harborc
30-04-2009, 01:36
Um....most companies with products to sell do not pre-doom large numbers of sales of a given product by over pricing the products so that large numbers of people will not buy the products because the products are priced to high to sell easily.

New Cult King
30-04-2009, 19:23
I've hit mine. I won't be buying any more armies, codexes or army books. GW are a rip-off, and all I'll do now is paint my existing minis with Vallejo paints.

loveless
30-04-2009, 20:31
Let me put it this way.

If all of GW's $25 10-man plastic sets go up to $42 (USD, I round up) - they are done with me. I have an e-mail pending. I already know what the response will be. But they're going to keep getting e-mails until their responses start making sense.

I won't buy a box of Marines at full price if I can help it - why would I spend $42 on something that cost $47 in metal? Hell, charge me $50 and throw in a thing of plastic glue - same difference with that logic.

I seriously would like to know if anyone is forming a protest against this price hike. I vote they just fire some staff if they want to be profitable - because putting an almost 70% price increase on your inventory is not going to do it.

BuFFo
01-05-2009, 17:21
My limit?

It was hit back in 2001.

I haven't bought anything directly from GW since then.

Ravenous
01-05-2009, 17:31
I seriously would like to know if anyone is forming a protest against this price hike. I vote they just fire some staff if they want to be profitable - because putting an almost 70% price increase on your inventory is not going to do it.

Unfortunately no.

Basically whats going to happen is a few people we get pissed and leave, others will buy from other sources (even though GW still make their money off you) and the last group will be upset for about a month groan about it 3 months later then they will totally forget about the whole thing. The best way to hit GW is to not buy at all, or do what people did to the music and movie industry when they started getting upset over the amount of abuse they were getting.

So as stupid as many people call GW what does that say about us?

This is GW in a nut shell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzb_6ewEPwY

Reinholt
01-05-2009, 18:15
Basically whats going to happen is a few people we get pissed and leave, others will buy from other sources (even though GW still make their money off you) and the last group will be upset for about a month groan about it 3 months later then they will totally forget about the whole thing.

The numbers here matter quite a bit, though.

If ~5% leave, another 50% either buy from other sources or buy less as a result of the price hike (which is pretty realistic, even if they only buy a little bit less), and the remaining 45% will forget about it three months later, then the question is this:

Did GW make a profit or create a loss by raising prices?

So far, their financial statements indicate that they are making losses on a consistent basis as a result of this. I literally do not understand how they could think raising prices at this time is a good idea.

dariakus
01-05-2009, 18:55
The numbers here matter quite a bit, though.

If ~5% leave, another 50% either buy from other sources or buy less as a result of the price hike (which is pretty realistic, even if they only buy a little bit less), and the remaining 45% will forget about it three months later, then the question is this:

Did GW make a profit or create a loss by raising prices?

So far, their financial statements indicate that they are making losses on a consistent basis as a result of this. I literally do not understand how they could think raising prices at this time is a good idea.

There are several reasons they can be using to justify it. As for their losses on a consistent basis, that's just not true.

Let's look at their revenue and their earnings per share over the last several years.

Year - Revenue - Earnings Per Share
------------------------------------
2008 - £110.3m - (-2.4p)
2007 - £109.5m - (-11.2p)
2006 - £115.2m - 6.5p
2005 - £136.6m - 28.2p
2004 - £151.8m - 40.8p

So they've definitely had a decline in recent years, but it's also obvious that they've started turning it around as of last year. The FY09 results won't be out for another month, but we can see where they were at the halfway mark:

Halfway Mark Revenue (same format as above)
--------------------------------
2009 - £61.2m - 4.9p
2008 - £53.9m - (-0.4p)

They are trending to be in much better shape this year. Their earnings per share at the halfway mark are significantly higher than the same point last year--and significantly higher than where they ended up last year.

I'd argue that they've turned a corner after a brutal year (FY07) and are getting back on their feet. We can argue and conjecture about what the price increases are going to do to their financials for next year (FY10), but you cannot argue that they are having "losses on a consistent basis".

(All investment information available here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/default.aspx)

darren redstar
01-05-2009, 20:05
It is odd that My relationship with GW began with the release of the last Imperial Guard codex and it seems is ending with the release of the new one.
I have enjoyed games workshops products and it has been an introduction for me to the wider wargaming hobby.
I have written to GW expressing my disappointment with them and my decision to stop buying their models.
they did not bother to reply.

dariakus
01-05-2009, 20:16
After some hard thought, I think I'm still good with the Greatswords price that I can get at discount online. While $30 for 10 models is still a bit pricey, I can make that leap far easier than I can to $41.25 for 10.

I won't stop buying altogether, but I'll definitely be slowing down if other sets see similar pricing adjustments.

Billpete002
01-05-2009, 20:35
This is what I have heard so please correct me if I am wrong - this comes from a GW manager - so I would like to trust him as there is no point to lie about it.

Cost of mold 80,000 pounds (I assume since this is a British company) {(I am sure this has decreased with recent technology - the use of computers/lasers/etc.)} <--- part from GW manager

Cost of the entire Black Reach box $0.02 (so if we go with the old exchange rate 0.04 pence?)

Now if you tack on all the costs for artists, transportation (which should be very low since oil costs nothing now), worker drones, red shirts, black shirts, blue shirts, <insert color> shirt you get pretty high costs.

Now we know red shirts get 50% off all items - I am tempted to ask what does a Indy retailer get them for? as this is close to the marginal cost I would suppose. So that $50 land raider (or is it 55 at this point?) is really $25 for a red shirt to buy and if we use pricing techniques you could probably find the marginal cost (the cost to produce a unit with 0 profit)

Now they have done how many price increases in the last year? two IIRC?

Even if we assume sticky prices and wages Britain has been having deflation since September/October 2008 and a bad spell of dumping employees (I haven't read a thing about GW dumping tons of red shirts - a few store closures in the US but have they done this elsewhere? [honest question])

"The monthly retail price index registered minus 0.4 percent in the month compared to a break-even zero percent in February. The consumer price index also dropped in the month from 3.2 percent in February to 2.9 percent." ~ UPI.com

So as a conclusion to this whole mess of a post:

1.) The cost per model is irrelevant as it costs almost nothing
2.) Costs such as molds and wages are expensive
3.) Red Shirts get items 50% off - but GW still makes a profit thus there is a further markup involved
4.) The prices have increased by a ton despite a serious recession and asset deflation
5.) I seriously doubt GW will be doing better this year or in the coming years as it is a luxury good - and those are the first items to go (unless you are addicted to this game like a crack addict...)

Tagis
01-05-2009, 20:51
The figure I had heard was £30,000 at most for a sprue.

plantagenet
01-05-2009, 20:53
Hmm 25 pounds for 10 plastic minatures seems incredibly steep. Now 12.50 the price a staff member that GW pays is about right.

We must surely have gone through the point in the curve now where every additional pound a product is raised causes total revenues to fall. If GW want to raise the average spend of a customer something that they were very focused on when I was a key timer for them, then they have to realize raising cost alone is not the way to do this.

If they want a collector to spend 25 pounds when they buy an infantry box set then raise the value of that box set. If there was 20 greatswords in the box then although complaints would still have arisen I seriously doubt peopel would have felt if they were being ripped off.

For me this is the way GW need to go. Increase price if they must but increase the amount of product in each box. Why this works on multiple levels.

1. The counter arguement to this could be well with two boxsets of 10 they make 50 pounds why is it in there interest to give me 20 for 25 pounds. GW need to get a persons money when they are interested in something. Us gamers are a fickle bunch, our interests wander very quickly, and many of us have other hobbies. For example I like biking, snowboarding and computer games. If I enter GW and I have 25 quid in my pocket I want to use and i see the new greatswords and then I see only 10 I am going to think maybe that pair of cycling shoes I saw in the sale was better or I really need a stomp pad for my board. This goes through the whole product line we need to percieve we are gettign value for money otherwise we quickly feel guilty about the purchase and choose not to make it. Take the Realm of Battle Board wow that great I think then you look at price and think I could purchase an x360 with a game and controller for less, perhaps I will leave it. You walk out of the store and boom GW has made no money on that particular part of your disposable income. Giving collectors more figures doesnt stop us buying more, you only have to look at the mountains of unpainted figures we have to see that. What stops us buying is lack of interest or the feeling we are beign ripped off.
2. At 25 for 10 you are never goign to convince someone who has the old metal ones to upgrade. This goes to all models in the range. Yet I suspect this is a fairly common source of income for GW. For example I am sure many people decided to replace there Cold Ones with the new models because they looked so great. If the cold one nights had been 42 dollars for 5 rather than the 22 they are now I am sure many many people would have decided not to bother despite how much nicer those new models are.
3. GW has to compete against its own second hand market. Now if the money goes back to GW its not so much of an issue, if it goes to there competitors or worse out of the hobby all together simply becuase people feel the hobby no longer offers value then that is bad for all of us.

We need a healthy GW to keep our hobby going. I personaly have the desire to collect 6 of there armies at the moment but price alone means I am just finishing the ones I have.

captainramoz
01-05-2009, 21:04
Right now i'm mustering every penny i have to star 3 different armies at once
tau,guard and finish my marines
After that i'll sporadicly add something more but i'll dedicate to paint.
My limit is till june 3 price increase:D

only joking...
01-05-2009, 21:16
Talked to my trustworthy redshirt apparently the Greatsword prices won't be replicated and are just an 'experiment'? WTF

Chaos and Evil
01-05-2009, 21:18
Talked to my trustworthy redshirt apparently the Greatsword prices won't be replicated and are just an 'experiment'? WTF

That'd be if they were checking to see what the market will bear.

Luckywallace
01-05-2009, 21:45
I'm there, the last price rise just around the time of the Space Marine codex was pretty much the nail in the coffin.

I might buy the odd thing (if they release plastic boar boyz I will snap up a box, probably directly from the workshop), but I will not be buying any new armies and my 2 current armies (greenskins for both systems) are basically rounded off.

G.W. has priced itself out of my market with it's models. I will still buy novels/rulebooks etc. but most models are just too much for what they are to me.

loveless
01-05-2009, 22:06
Talked to my trustworthy redshirt apparently the Greatsword prices won't be replicated and are just an 'experiment'? WTF

IF this is the case, then the price won't last. If they're doing price monitor testing, this seems like a bit much.

Test: If Customers pay $47 for 10 metals, will they pay $42 for 10 plastics, if they're used to paying $25 for 10 plastics?

If they see the revenue increases they want, they'll leave the "elite" units at high prices. If they don't, they'll leave them where they are and just keep them in a price level "up" from standard plastic troops.

Here's another idea for an experiment...
...lower the price and see if sales by unit increases.
It's not going to hurt if you run a test like that for 3 months or so, maintaining monitoring so you can stop the test if it seems like you're bleeding money.

TheDarkDuke
01-05-2009, 22:51
Here's another idea for an experiment...
...lower the price and see if sales by unit increases.
It's not going to hurt if you run a test like that for 3 months or so, maintaining monitoring so you can stop the test if it seems like you're bleeding money.

They did in Canada when the exchange rate was ridiculous... guess what... sales went considerably up. They are about to stoop back to the old costs that didn't sell.... thought process was certainly lost somewhere in there... however that might be also in part that the Canada Team is being slimed and added to the US Team and will form the almighty North American Team... which is run by the US Team who seem to think the US Dollar is still 2x that of Canada's...

Crazy Harborc
02-05-2009, 01:16
Um, isn't there more than one sprue in a mold? What are the sizes of those molds? How many minies can be assembled from one molds sprues?

I really doubt that only one sprue is in a mold. Those plastic sprues normally appear to be cut off/away from a larger than just one sprue piece.;)

Reinholt
02-05-2009, 02:11
So they've definitely had a decline in recent years, but it's also obvious that they've started turning it around as of last year. The FY09 results won't be out for another month, but we can see where they were at the halfway mark:

Halfway Mark Revenue (same format as above)
--------------------------------
2009 - £61.2m - 4.9p
2008 - £53.9m - (-0.4p)

They are trending to be in much better shape this year. Their earnings per share at the halfway mark are significantly higher than the same point last year--and significantly higher than where they ended up last year.

I'd argue that they've turned a corner after a brutal year (FY07) and are getting back on their feet. We can argue and conjecture about what the price increases are going to do to their financials for next year (FY10), but you cannot argue that they are having "losses on a consistent basis".

(All investment information available here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/default.aspx)

Yet, as I keep saying, they are losing customers. Over and over I say this, and your numbers bear it out! Consider:

1 - Let's assume an average price increase, yearly, of 5% from 2004 on.

2 - Let's assume, for argument sake, an average purchase price of 25 pounds in 2004 (this doesn't really matter much).

We have, as a result, the following number for yearly purchases:

Year - Sales per Year - % Change
2004 - 6,072,000
2005 - 5,203,810 - (14.30)%
2006 - 4,179,592 - (19.68)%
2007 - 3,783,609 - (9.47)%
2008 - 3,629,763 - (4.07)%

So the very numbers that you have just showed me demonstrate that GW is losing customers every year on a year over year basis. This is an extremely bad trend, and one that raising prices has somewhat obscured.

This year, if their sales hold up at the current pace, they will have barely edged back into positive numbers for sales growth.

Even so, none of this addresses the fact that GW's current results are still terrible, and should be much better if the business were well run. Having evaluated many companies in my time, my back of the envelope estimates have GW leaving at least 50 million pounds of revenue on the table, yearly, as a result of their poor business policies throughout the decade. Possibly much more.

There is nothing good about any of these numbers; it's just shades of bad.

dariakus
02-05-2009, 03:55
Yet, as I keep saying, they are losing customers. Over and over I say this, and your numbers bear it out! Consider:

1 - Let's assume an average price increase, yearly, of 5% from 2004 on.

2 - Let's assume, for argument sake, an average purchase price of 25 pounds in 2004 (this doesn't really matter much).

We have, as a result, the following number for yearly purchases:

Year - Sales per Year - % Change
2004 - 6,072,000
2005 - 5,203,810 - (14.30)%
2006 - 4,179,592 - (19.68)%
2007 - 3,783,609 - (9.47)%
2008 - 3,629,763 - (4.07)%

So the very numbers that you have just showed me demonstrate that GW is losing customers every year on a year over year basis. This is an extremely bad trend, and one that raising prices has somewhat obscured.

This year, if their sales hold up at the current pace, they will have barely edged back into positive numbers for sales growth.

Even so, none of this addresses the fact that GW's current results are still terrible, and should be much better if the business were well run. Having evaluated many companies in my time, my back of the envelope estimates have GW leaving at least 50 million pounds of revenue on the table, yearly, as a result of their poor business policies throughout the decade. Possibly much more.

There is nothing good about any of these numbers; it's just shades of bad.

That's a very interesting analysis of the information. The next step would be to evaluate why that's the case, I suppose. It's tempting to say price is the number one consideration, and it may be, but there could be other things as well. I know time gets to be a big consideration at some point for a lot of folks.

Again, not trying to defend their pricing structure--I honestly don't have enough information to defend or shout it down. Personally I'm no fan because I was expecting to get Greatswords at about 60% of what we pay for the metal ones.

I'm not going to go on some boycott, though. I'll just slow down spending like everyone else seems to have done over the last few years.

Poseidal
02-05-2009, 07:40
What happened at and after 2004? I looked at the 2008 report, and it's that time when it started falling.

Hellebore
02-05-2009, 08:01
Probably the Return of the King. They overstretched their spending and their lowering sales in 40k and WFB were masked by the LotR Bubble (which they had admitted existed, but even then they didn't deal with it well enough).

Hellebore

Ultimate Life Form
02-05-2009, 08:17
Talked to my trustworthy redshirt apparently the Greatsword prices won't be replicated and are just an 'experiment'? WTF

It looks like GW maneuvered itself into a position where they can only lose. Three cases are possible from now:

1. GS prices stays as it is. No one will buy them. Bad.

2. They adjust the prices of the rest of the range to match GS prices. No one will ever buy anything again. Very bad.

3. They say, "oh, look, it was only a fun little experiment to see how many of you are stupid enough to pay any price we demand". The GS price drops back in line, but GW reputation is severely damaged, and many customers lost because they are fed up with such shenanigans. Very bad, too. And I don´t want to know what the guys who bought the GS nonetheless would do to GW if they find out that the boxes they bought for a fortune are 50% cheaper one month later!

So, paradoxical as it may be, it could be in GW´s interest to keep the GS prices up. That way, only the GS will not sell, whereas in the other two cases, the whole range will suffer.

Poseidal
02-05-2009, 08:27
3. They say, "oh, look, it was only a fun little experiment to see how many of you are stupid enough to pay any price we demand". The GS price drops back in line, but GW reputation is severely damaged, and many customers lost because they are fed up with such shenanigans. Very bad, too. And I don´t want to know what the guys who bought the GS nonetheless would do to GW if they find out that the boxes they bought for a fortune are 50% cheaper one month later!
I don't think the majority of the player base will notice the 'experiment' though.

It was one set in one model line in Fantasy. The majority of players are in 40k, and will probably never know. Even many Fantasy players, unless they're Empire or generally observant wouldn't notice if the high price isn't kept for a significant amount of time.

Ultimate Life Form
02-05-2009, 08:44
I don't think the majority of the player base will notice the 'experiment' though.

It was one set in one model line in Fantasy. The majority of players are in 40k, and will probably never know. Even many Fantasy players, unless they're Empire or generally observant wouldn't notice if the high price isn't kept for a significant amount of time.

You´re right here, forgot about that. You hear that, GW? Drop the prices while you still can! No one´s noticed till now!

Panik
02-05-2009, 17:25
I've only *very* recently got back into the scene.

Lets just say I was more than a litle suprised when I saw the current prices.

GW has always been pricey - but now, for me, its just plain un-affordable.

I'm getting all my gear from Ebay now. So far I have bought 3 box-sets - all of which where still shrink wrapped/untouched, and a third of GW's RRP.

Templar Ben
03-05-2009, 15:00
At a third of retail it is below what even game stores and staff purchase.

boogle
03-05-2009, 16:16
Indy's bricks and mortar stores usually pay 40% of GW retail to purchase, and sell it at 80/90% retail.

however buying at 30% retail is better than being able to buy at 50% off and having to put up with the crap that GW staff have to

Templar Ben
04-05-2009, 01:46
Where do they pay 40% retail?

Crazy Harborc
04-05-2009, 02:09
Standard discount (in the USA) allowed to indies is 40% off of/below suggested retail price. My friends in the business would be bragging all over town if they got more of a discount. Those bonus discounts accumulate and can mean 6-9% more discount beyond the standard.

GW and other companies have been known to offer incentive bonus discounts, in addition to the standard 40% off of list. 2-4 percent for paying a bill in full up front/upon receipt of the bill. Ordering above X number of $$$$$$, above a high level can be good for an added discount.

Some companies have been known to allow indies to carry over a balance from one month to another. Slowly raising the balance owed to new highs. Some companies have been known to then demand payment in full of the balance owed before anindies is allowed to reorder. For some companies THAT just happened to occur when the company opened a company store near the indie(s).

But that's oh never happen....oh no.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

__ALEX__
04-05-2009, 08:01
I haven't bought anything from a games workshop store in over five years, and the models I have acquired recently have been from ebay with painting/modelling equipment coming from cheaper hobby stores and discount retailers. Finding 2nd hand metal/classic models on ebay is much more fun anyway. GW won't see another penny of my money, especially since abolishing the Bitz service (the only reason I would have had for buying from GW direct).. :(

DigbyWeapon
04-05-2009, 08:27
To OP.
15 pounds/$30 for a codex/army book?
Jee, I sure miss those days...$42/20Pounds here.
So, if you can imagine...

boogle
04-05-2009, 14:09
Where do they pay 40% retail?

I'll check with my sister as she works for a bricks and mortar indy store that stocks Gw stuff

ZomboCom
08-05-2009, 17:07
My limit has been broken thanks to the goldswords. I'm not buying anything any more.

BattleofLund
08-05-2009, 17:39
I have not yet encountered a limit as far as Army Books are concerned; since 'Knowing My Enemy' is essential to defeating said enemy.

£15 for an Army Book? Are we there yet? I don't think I paid that much for the Lizzie book, but I certainly will pay that amount sometime down the line.

Models: if new models are released that I really like the look of, I will buy retail. But I won't pay GW prices for entire armies anymore, nor discounted internet stores; it's second-hand all the way (£1-1.5 for cav models seems right for me). Thankfully I have stuff enough to work with that I can be patient for the bargains.

Chaos and Evil
08-05-2009, 17:52
£15 for an Army Book? Are we there yet?

Yes most army books/codeces are now £15.

Space Marines codex is £18.

zak
09-05-2009, 00:57
I don't think it will be long before we see £18 as a standard for army books/codices. It would be hard to set a limit I would pay for models. I have been collected for ages and I haven't stopped yet considering some rather hefty increases. I suppose that whilst an army is still viable for £300-400 it is still far cheaper than my other hobbies, which are considerably more expensive and the equipment used far less.

Crazy Harborc
09-05-2009, 02:40
But, but, but......GW is bringing us all such wonderful things. $70(USD) for a ONE year (no choice of more years) renewal of WD. Plastic minies prices that match the cost (of each/of a box) of the replaced metal ones.

What rules or armybooks will I buy GW 8th edition paperwork for? IF they are published for 8the Edition in the next two years? NONE.;)

TheDarkDuke
09-05-2009, 04:02
There are several reasons they can be using to justify it. As for their losses on a consistent basis, that's just not true.

Let's look at their revenue and their earnings per share over the last several years.

Year - Revenue - Earnings Per Share
------------------------------------
2008 - £110.3m - (-2.4p)
2007 - £109.5m - (-11.2p)
2006 - £115.2m - 6.5p
2005 - £136.6m - 28.2p
2004 - £151.8m - 40.8p

So they've definitely had a decline in recent years, but it's also obvious that they've started turning it around as of last year. The FY09 results won't be out for another month, but we can see where they were at the halfway mark:

Halfway Mark Revenue (same format as above)
--------------------------------
2009 - £61.2m - 4.9p
2008 - £53.9m - (-0.4p)

They are trending to be in much better shape this year. Their earnings per share at the halfway mark are significantly higher than the same point last year--and significantly higher than where they ended up last year.

I'd argue that they've turned a corner after a brutal year (FY07) and are getting back on their feet. We can argue and conjecture about what the price increases are going to do to their financials for next year (FY10), but you cannot argue that they are having "losses on a consistent basis".

(All investment information available here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/default.aspx)

Hmm ther negative years are those that the prices outside of the US and UK were such a rip off paying top of the line shipping overseas was still cheaper on 80% of there merchandise! Guess what they did the last half of 2008... lowered those prices to match currency and made it the right prices (other then are poor friends over in AUS and NZ). These increases are putting us back to where people already said we will not pay these prices. Now even on top of this, they are raising the US and UK prices as well, so we won't even have the option of having them shipped for a just cost. Funny how the numbers match up, and if GW can not see this then there run is pretty much over. We will see under 100 million pounds abd easily a drop to -15 to -20. One only needs to look at places that are so called "untouchable" Walmart? there stock is down $8 per share from last year, and have done nothing but lowered prices to draw the same sales which they still are not hitting. IKEA... same. We can go on and on, right now any price rise on anything non mandatory (food, power, shelter) is a failure and even these things are getting hit.

JCOLL
09-05-2009, 05:01
Rising prices has to end somewhere. At some point this will all collapse in on them and meen the end of GW. Do they not realize this? I'm not saying that as a basis for us gamers refusing to pay, but from a base of how much can they really charge for a box full of plastic? I really see that at some point they will have to sit back and take a good hard look which will mean lowering their prices to a point that is reasonable. I'm willing to tolerate a little increase here and there as such things fluctuate, but at sooner or later it's going to bite them in the but. Don't know what good it would do but what about a petition with as many signatures on it we can get? It may not get prices lowered but it may put a strangle hold on the subject. Just an idea. Or overload them with emails telling them we take our business elsewhere with the price increase. It may sound far fetched, but as consumers we do have power. I'm not talking of boycotting them, but of showing them that we won't stand for this shaddy business. In print they tell us that the cost of production goes down with the introduction of plastics over metal and then rape us on our hard earned money? We have to do something. Maybe getting everyone on warseer to write to Jervis himself. He sure won't read them all but wouldn't it be quite shocking with the amount of mail on his desk? Thoughts?

Hicks
09-05-2009, 06:27
Rising prices has to end somewhere. At some point this will all collapse in on them and meen the end of GW. Do they not realize this? I'm not saying that as a basis for us gamers refusing to pay, but from a base of how much can they really charge for a box full of plastic? I really see that at some point they will have to sit back and take a good hard look which will mean lowering their prices to a point that is reasonable. I'm willing to tolerate a little increase here and there as such things fluctuate, but at sooner or later it's going to bite them in the but. Don't know what good it would do but what about a petition with as many signatures on it we can get? It may not get prices lowered but it may put a strangle hold on the subject. Just an idea. Or overload them with emails telling them we take our business elsewhere with the price increase. It may sound far fetched, but as consumers we do have power. I'm not talking of boycotting them, but of showing them that we won't stand for this shaddy business. In print they tell us that the cost of production goes down with the introduction of plastics over metal and then rape us on our hard earned money? We have to do something. Maybe getting everyone on warseer to write to Jervis himself. He sure won't read them all but wouldn't it be quite shocking with the amount of mail on his desk? Thoughts?

I don't think writing to GW is a good idea because it shows that you still care about the company and it's product and that you are probably still going to buy from them.

The best way to show a company that you think they are trying to rob people blind with insane prices is just to not buy from them alltogether. If unhappy people's letters had any kind of effet on pricing then, you can be sure I would spend all my spare time writing angry mail to Ferrari.

Lord of Worms
09-05-2009, 13:44
I personally stopped buying retail right around the time they stopped taking bitz orders. In my desperation, I went on ebay, and through there (as well as buying Citadel components) I discovered other great miniature manufacturers. Aside from variety, the greatest lesson I learned was thrift. I now spend a fraction of what I used to for far more stuff. FAR more.

warhammergrimace
09-05-2009, 19:07
GW assume that gamers will pay what ever they charge. They have a high opinion of themselves, the assumption that there is no other product that's comparable, so gamers will pay what ever price is stamped on the box. The conceited belief that no real gamer would switch to an inferior product, as far as they are concerned. They assume that everyone will just keep on paying like they have always done.

I think they are going to get a very big shock in the later half of the year. After the new price rises there will be a reduction of people buying. I know a lot of gamers who are snapping up boxes now before the price rise, then have no intention of buying anything else after June. They will possibly have huge sales between now and June then we will probably see this tail off.

boogle
09-05-2009, 19:13
GW assume that gamers will pay what ever they charge. They have a high opinion of themselves, the assumption that there is no other product that's comparable, so gamers will pay what ever price is stamped on the box. The conceited belief that no real gamer would switch to an inferior product, as far as they are concerned. They assume that everyone will just keep on paying like they have always done.

I think they are going to get a very big shock in the later half of the year. After the new price rises there will be a reduction of people buying. I know a lot of gamers who are snapping up boxes now before the price rise, then have no intention of buying anything else after June. They will possibly have huge sales between now and June then we will probably see this tail off.

We all know what assume does don't we?

New Cult King
10-05-2009, 04:38
Just for the sake of a read, I went to pick up the new SM codex the other day.

It cost AUD$50. The same price as a tactical squad. WTF? Codexes and army books are usually $32-$38. This is insane. I put it back on the shelf.

Sorry GW, but it's time you woke up to yourselves.

Horus38
10-05-2009, 05:02
My limit?

It was hit back in 2001.

I haven't bought anything directly from GW since then.

Amen to that. Their pricing scheme and strategy have turned into a complete joke of late...

Damien 1427
10-05-2009, 09:49
I think my personal limit will be £15 RRP for ten ork boyz, or ten Imperial Guardsmen. But I've had a personal point when I think the company has gone over the brink, and that'll be when a Beakie Tactical Squad costs £20 RRP.

That'll be the point when I decide to call it a day.

So, start of June, most likely. :rolleyes:

Ben
10-05-2009, 10:32
To be fair this price rise has got a lot of people in my roup to stop thinking about historicals and go out and start buying them.

It also makes forgeworld seem better value.

New Cult King
10-05-2009, 11:41
I think my personal limit will be £15 RRP for ten ork boyz, or ten Imperial Guardsmen. But I've had a personal point when I think the company has gone over the brink, and that'll be when a Beakie Tactical Squad costs £20 RRP.

That'll be the point when I decide to call it a day.

So, start of June, most likely. :rolleyes:


At current exchange rates, Aussies are already paying more than that :cries:

I might start looking at the FW Krieg/Elysian minis. The prices are starting to be on par with the plastics.

Hlokk
10-05-2009, 13:19
At current exchange rates, Aussies are already paying more than that :cries:
Just think of it as a tax for having the worlds best beaches :p

Books wise, Im stumped for a limit. Im certainly not happy paying £15 at the moment but I've seen a similar increase for the World of Darkness RPG, of which I buy every sourcebook, so maybe in terms of books its not just GW. They have been putting lots of new stuff in books in terms of new units, so that makes the price a little more bearable.

Im looking forward to seeing if they put up the prices for Black Library stuff and seeing how retailers like Borders and Smiths react to that.

boogle
10-05-2009, 13:50
All books are going up later on this year anyway, according to the BL site, this usually ties in with books in general going up, rather than BL doing it themselves

Alfie
10-05-2009, 17:32
Yeah, i bought a book the other day £7.99 for a paper back (dave Gorman driving across america trying not to use any major chains). So i can see BL books being raised in line.

I remember when books used to be £1.49 each :eek:.

yabbadabba
10-05-2009, 18:00
All books are going up later on this year anyway, according to the BL site, this usually ties in with books in general going up, rather than BL doing it themselves

In the UK I think the government controls the prices of things like certain types of paperbacks.

IJW
10-05-2009, 18:05
Book prices are quite a good comparison that occurred to me awhile ago but I never got around to writing up.

General cost of a paperback in 1986 - £1.95 (Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)
Cost of a Space Marine in 1987 - 73p for metal (£2.50 for a blister of three), 33p for RTB01 plastic (£9.99 for 30).

Cost of a general paperback in 2009 - £7.99 (Pratchett, The Light Fantastic, high street price, Amazon is cheaper)
Cost of a Space Marine in 2009 - around £3.93 for metal (Special Weapon Marines), £1.76 for plastic Tac squad (£17.60 for ten).

Book increase - 501% (looking at high street prices)
Metal Marine increase - 638%
Plastic Marine increase - 633%

Yes, the Marines have gone up six-fold (and improved a fair bit in the process), but the paperback has increased almost as much. What really throws a spanner in the works is Amazon, who changed the face of book sales outside of the high street.

Maybe that helps explain why most of my reading material comes from the local libraries. :( As usual, I'm not necessarily defending GW's pricing decisions as they already priced themselves out of my pocket for most things, but some products go up by more than inflation...

Desert Rain
10-05-2009, 19:04
It's good that we have a relatively cheap online store here in Sweden as I won't be buying any models or books in stores from June and onwards.

Stupid GW price increases...

BDJV
10-05-2009, 19:41
But I've had a personal point when I think the company has gone over the brink, and that'll be when a Beakie Tactical Squad costs £20 RRP.

That'll be the point when I decide to call it a day.

So, start of June, most likely. :rolleyes:


At current exchange rates, Aussies are already paying more than that :cries:

Yeah I'm with NCK here in the US we are paying 35 USD a squad which is 23.22 UKP at the current exchange rate. Although I don't buy much now, if they go above 40 USD I'm done.

bigshep
10-05-2009, 20:06
Reached my limit. Bought a figure in January as I liked it. Not bought anther figure for a good 9 months before that from GW. Not played 40k for over a year, and have sold of 3 armies. Kept one for nostalgia reasons. Still got a WAB army. Still play the occasional game, still paint lots of figures. Moved fully back into historicals, 10mm Napolionics and 15mm Ancients and D+D as new endeavours. Still paint lots of figs, some for me, some for others, some for ebay. So my main source of relaxation is still there, but GW aint getting a penny of it

Revlid
10-05-2009, 20:30
My limit for Codices/Army Books was surpassed with £15. These days, I'm only going to be buying those books I need for my armies - curiosity about any other books will result in a quick google search for torrents.

As for models, here's a rough estimate of what I'll pay:

£5-8: Metal character models, 2-3 metal models (small units - I'll kitbash larger units without a plastic alternative), or one Ogre-sized model.
£10-15: Plastic Boxes with 10 rank-and-file, up to 5 Cavalry, 2 character models, or a warmachine or monster. Must have lots of bitz.
£18-20: Plastic Boxes with 16+ rank-and-file, or 4+ Ogre-sized rank-and-file, Chariots, or 6+ Cavalry. Lower bitz:model ratio expected.
£20-25: Monsters, Speshul regiments
£30+: Forgeworld, Battalions, etc.

Caiphas Cain
10-05-2009, 20:47
Ill buy untill plastic infantry boxes go for 45$. But only for my main army unfortunantly. The price increses have halted me from starting another army or two.

Khornies & milk
10-05-2009, 22:44
[QUOTE=New Cult King;3558447]At current exchange rates, Aussies are already paying more than that :cries:/QUOTE]

Yep, we Aussies have being paying through the nose for full retail GW for a looonnnng time now. I believe it's our duty to never ever buy direct from GW Australia, and to actively seek out the cheapest source possible...just so we can buy at prices on a par with our Overseas gamers.

(you should read that while humming our National Anthem:D)

Ravenous
11-05-2009, 01:16
[QUOTE=New Cult King;3558447]At current exchange rates, Aussies are already paying more than that :cries:/QUOTE]

Yep, we Aussies have being paying through the nose for full retail GW for a looonnnng time now. I believe it's our duty to never ever buy direct from GW Australia, and to actively seek out the cheapest source possible...just so we can buy at prices on a par with our Overseas gamers.

(you should read that while humming our National Anthem:D)

Now you'll be paying more to give GW redshirts that you never see a raise ;)

Crazy Harborc
11-05-2009, 02:57
By the by......before GW started to manufacture minies in the USA, they all came from the UK with a VAT tax added into the suggested retail price.

THEN....GW started to make some minies in the USA...no VAT tax to add into the SRP here. NO prices went down GW pretended that percentage of tax was still needed in the retail prices of minies made in the USA and sold in the USA. Ethics? Pass along savings to the customers? Not GW.:(

New Cult King
11-05-2009, 13:00
Erm, slightly off-topic, but where are some good places in Oz that stock cheap GW stuff? My local gaming store has it all for the same price as the GW across the mall :(

Fenrir
11-05-2009, 14:31
I've reached my limit. GW's next price rise is the one that'll finally see me good on that "my armies are finished" statement.