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Brother Corvinus
23-04-2009, 23:37
What do you think would have happened to the Imperium and the Great Crusade if the Emperor hadn't created the marines? Would the Imperial Army have been enought to launch the crusade, and if so, how successful would it have been?

The Horus Heresy would never have happened, and the Emperor wouldn't have been mortally wounded by Horus. Neither would he have been confined to the Golden Throne, since the protection around Terra never would have failed without Magnus interference.

So, what do you think?

Condottiere
23-04-2009, 23:44
History tends to repeat itself, just the details change.

There might have been a greater emphasis on Mecha troops, and 40K would start to resemble any number of Japanese robot anime.

Drogmir
23-04-2009, 23:46
You'd probably get a more prosperous Imperium with the leadership of the Emperor.

But it would also be a lot smaller, due to the lack of any thing close to the great crusades and the Emperor could only be in so many places at once.

You'd also still have the unification of the Imperial Navy and Army. Also there would be a possibility it would still be the Imperial Army and not the Imperial Guard.

Decius
24-04-2009, 00:02
If there was no Horus and thus no "Horus Heresy", the Imperium may have suffered the "Shulbrect Schism". You know, the civil war named after Lord Uber-Marshal Shulbect who took fully half of the Imperial Army Groups and, with the help of the Chaos Gods, critically wounded the Emperor and nearly destroyed the Imperium? :p

Eldarion
24-04-2009, 00:02
History tends to repeat itself, just the details change.

There might have been a greater emphasis on Mecha troops, and 40K would start to resemble any number of Japanese robot anime.

Imperial piolets in Gundams....:eek:

Brother Corvinus
24-04-2009, 00:14
If there was no Horus and thus no "Horus Heresy", the Imperium may have suffered the "Shulbrect Schism". You know, the civil war named after Lord Uber-Marshal Shulbect who took fully half of the Imperial Army Groups and, with the help of the Chaos Gods, critically wounded the Emperor and nearly destroyed the Imperium? :p

Yes, another "Heresy" might be possible, but I find it hard to believe that any mere man, influenced by Chaos or not, could kill the Emperor. Horus was a primarch and the Emperors most beloved son, and those are the biggest reasons he was able to wound the Emperor. The Emperor wouldn't be holding back against some military commander that he had no close bond with. He would have annihilated him instantly. ;)

endless
24-04-2009, 00:23
It's an interesting idea, but doesn't really gel with the whole progression of humanity theme of the Imperium. (IMHO) The Emperor's entire ethos is the creation of a NEW race, psychic humanity, the new man. The Primarchs, and, by extension, marines, are simply a means to an end. Humanity, the Guard, were not capable of taking that step. The necessary evil of the Great Crusade could not be carried out by humans, it needed something more, and less, than human to succeed. This is the fundamental basis of the 40k universe, mankind had no future, it had to destroy itself in order to survive. It didn't and now (40k) is a decrepit, sterile society without hope of progression.

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 00:28
The Emperor wouldn't be holding back against some military commander that he had no close bond with. He would have annihilated him instantly. ;)

By the same logic, no one would have risen to that position of power without having a bond like that with the Emperor.

I think it would be a far better place. Not because of the lack of marines, but because the Emperor would probably have worked out how to mass produce his webway technology and allow humanity to travel across the entire galaxy in seconds. With the power to move entire army groups directly from planet to planet, with instant communications, the Imperial Army could conquer the galaxy. Not even the Tyranids could stand up to humanity then.

Lord_Crull
24-04-2009, 00:36
The heresy was going to happen regardless. Humanity was moving too quickly even if it would not be as worse as the original heresy it would have still slowed the Imperium down.

Also who says the emperor could have perfected the webway? I thought that the daemons were able to breach it.

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 01:08
I thought that the daemons were able to breach it.

Only after the signal from Magnus screwed it all up. Before that the thing was impregnable.

PondaNagura
24-04-2009, 02:14
no marines, not even proto-marines?
no, the imperium would not have happened.
the Unification Wars would either have been unresolved, or would have been more costly in manpower. part of the reason the Terawatt clan was able to tackle the rest of the techno-barbarians and even repel the invading Martian forces was because the Emperor had planned and researched what would be needed to overwhelm all other rival forces. marines and proto-marines were fast, reliable, loyal troops that excelled not only in actual combat but caused the psychological trauma to even genebulk troops.

Enkidu
24-04-2009, 05:00
Battletech would happen!

Or Gundam, or whatever, take your pick. The above are all correct, the plot would still unfold, just in a different timeline/manner.

GeneralDisaster
24-04-2009, 06:38
The Avatar would have been owned by a Commissar, and people would be even more hateful...

"OmG Teh Fluff for c0mm15ar D4v3 is lyk3 s0 g3h!"

Seriously? The Adeptus Mechanicus would play a MAAAASIVE part in the armies of the Imperium, and the Emperor wouldn't be on the great golden toilet.

Nakor
24-04-2009, 11:20
Imperial piolets in Gundams....:eek:

bs 3 on those big ass weapons is pretty much bad for everyone.

Brother Xeron
24-04-2009, 11:49
So would there be any need for the inquisition if there were no marines created, and hence no traitor marines?

Brother Xeron

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 11:51
By the same logic, no one would have risen to that position of power without having a bond like that with the Emperor.

I think it would be a far better place. Not because of the lack of marines, but because the Emperor would probably have worked out how to mass produce his webway technology and allow humanity to travel across the entire galaxy in seconds. With the power to move entire army groups directly from planet to planet, with instant communications, the Imperial Army could conquer the galaxy. Not even the Tyranids could stand up to humanity then.

Just as the eldar did up until that point?

Hellebore

Brother Siccarius
24-04-2009, 12:29
You know, a lot of that is what would happen if he hadn't made the Primarchs. The Marines were a vital force multiplier in the Great Crusade. They saved many trillions of lives and many decades by being able to coordinate direct strikes into the heart of a resistant world. Without the Marines, the Imperial Army would be still locked in stalemates that the Marines were able to break in days. I'm not saying the Imperial Army couldn't have done it, but it would be slower, it would have taken longer, there would have been many more deaths than even the Heresy created, and forced Enlistment would have been required at a minimum.


So would there be any need for the inquisition if there were no marines created, and hence no traitor marines?

Brother Xeron
Does Chaos still exist? Are there still Xenos and rogue Psykers? Lets face it, they may be different than they are currently, but the Imperium would need an inquisition to keep track of the internal threats.

sabreu
24-04-2009, 13:21
The storyline would more or so progress along the same way, but with a much more aggressive storyline driven by the might of Terra through it's sheer human tenacity. A much more interesting read I think than anything involving marines, but that's just me.

Also, war would be much more gritty and less 'decisive', i.e. not so heavy on the handwaivum stories where a few marines save an entire planet or whatnot.

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 13:42
Just as the eldar did up until that point?

Slight differences in the level of manpower and resources available to each faction...

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 13:54
If by that you mean the eldar had far more of both then sure. The eldar empire controlled the galaxy and did so for more than one million years during which time their numbers were in the trillions.

Also, the emperor's 'webway tech' consisted of nothing more than stealing the eldar's technology. He attempted only to open a portal into the preexisting webway and use it for his own ends.

The eldar had the capacity to move anywhere in the universe just as easily because it was THEIR technology the emperor was using and if he could do that, then so could they.

Hellebore

Lord Cook
24-04-2009, 14:01
If by that you mean the eldar had far more of both then sure. The eldar empire controlled the galaxy and did so for more than one million years during which time their numbers were in the trillions.

Wait, I thought you meant the Eldar after the Fall? If you're talking about before the Fall then you're only supporting my point that species with a functioning galaxy-spanning webway had a massive advantage and were the dominant life form in the galaxy.

EDIT: I know he was stealing Eldar technology, but that's irrelevant to my point. The Eldar Empire had collapsed and they were no longer able to exercise effective control.

Lord_Crull
24-04-2009, 14:06
no marines, not even proto-marines?
no, the imperium would not have happened.
the Unification Wars would either have been unresolved, or would have been more costly in manpower. part of the reason the Terrawatt clan was able to tackle the rest of the techno-barbarians and even repel the invading Martian forces was because the Emperor had planned and researched what would be needed to overwhelm all other rival forces. marines and proto-marines were fast, reliable, loyal troops that excelled not only in actual combat but caused the psychological trauma to even genebulk troops.

Your right, I forgot about that, the Great Crusade never get's off the ground then. Especially if you are fighting in enviorments like the Laer's underwater cities.

Hellebore
24-04-2009, 14:07
I said up until that point. As in, up until the emperor breached the webway and/or started the great crusade. pre fall eldar.

Damn Straight having an intergalactic highway is tactically advantageous. Even now with it in ruins the eldar remanants can STILL dictate combat with their enemies (most of the time).

It would have been VERY interesting to see what happened if the Imperium attempted to gain control of the webway. The dark eldar live in there after all. They would be exploring an area that they have no map to so would require continuous survey missions.

There is also the 'souldraining' effect of spending too much time in the webway (which the dark eldar ignore through absorbing souls and the harlequins via Cegorach somehow). With weaker souls they would probably succumb quicker to it.

The webway would be fighting on the eldar's own terms and would be a very epic and cool story concept (so long as in this scenario the Emperor and primarchs or whatever aren't GUARANTEED TO WI N as they were for the great crusade).

Hellebore

Ubermensch Commander
24-04-2009, 18:12
Without Space Marines the Great Crusade would never have happened. The Emperor needed them to forge the Imperium and they are still needed to stem the tide of cosmic horrors descending upon the Imperium in the 41st millenium.
Also the religious zealotry of the Imperium (albeit far far smaller if it even was created without space marines) would have emerged quicker since rather than having a constant immortal demi-god primarch and their brood around for the centuries of the Great Crusade, you would have had several generations of general all serving the same "Immmortal God-Emperor". This would have sabotaged the Emperors efforts as effectively as the Horus Heresy, only in a more insidious and less overt way. Still there lies the chance for someone going "He is a false messiah! Get 'im!" due to the Big E denying his divinity.

Also, it is doubtful the Emp could have even wrangled the support of Mars without the threat of some kind of genetically engineered superwarriors to impress them and bring them to the bargaining table.

In short, No Space Marines, No Imperium. They were essential in its foriging, and in holding it together during events like Vandire's rule. yeah, they are ALSO responsible in bringing it all to a crashing halt with the Horus Heresy. Kids these days, whatcha gonna do? *shakes head*

Condottiere
24-04-2009, 19:57
You would have needed spearhead troops, and if not genetically modified, then technologically enhanced.

Da Black Gobbo
24-04-2009, 20:53
You would have needed spearhead troops, and if not genetically modified, then technologically enhanced.

There is no Horus heresy, so the emperor is not dead, probably the big E work in better equipement for average Imperial trooper, something like TAU weapondry.

Lord Of The Avatars
24-04-2009, 21:01
[QUOTE=GeneralDisaster;3504391]The Avatar would have been owned by a Commissar, and people would be even more hateful...

what the hell James! what you on bout foo! marneus calgar only beat the avatar because the poor thing was worn down from killing hundreds of Ultramarines! And anyway... Marneus is absolutely stupid, i mean, how does he drink coffee without smashing the fricking cup? Where would he be without his precious coffee?Hmm? :evilgrin: Just think what the avatar would have done to him if he even drank one mug... DAAAAAYUM! He'd be castrated on the spot! :evilgrin:

Zahr Dalsk
24-04-2009, 21:06
Also, it is doubtful the Emp could have even wrangled the support of Mars without the threat of some kind of genetically engineered superwarriors to impress them and bring them to the bargaining table.

AdMech joined Imperium because their official stance was that the Emperor was the Machine God (read: they wanted a meat shield, and the Imperium serves that task admirably). I'm not sure why they'd fear Space Marines, really, when they had things like Titans and Skitarii.

Condottiere
24-04-2009, 21:29
There is no Horus heresy, so the emperor is not dead, probably the big E work in better equipement for average Imperial trooper, something like TAU weapondry.Humans like the concept of eliteness; the Tau perhaps less so.

Lord_Crull
25-04-2009, 02:59
AdMech joined Imperium because their official stance was that the Emperor was the Machine God (read: they wanted a meat shield, and the Imperium serves that task admirably). I'm not sure why they'd fear Space Marines, really, when they had things like Titans and Skitarii.

I thought that it was the Emperor who manipulated the Mechanicum into serving him by promising new technolgies and starting the foundations of thier order by beating up the Dragon.

Also Titans yes, Skitarii no, the SM legions would have schooled the Skitarii, especially if they were led by the Emperor.

Zahr Dalsk
25-04-2009, 03:19
I thought that it was the Emperor who manipulated the Mechanicum into serving him by promising new technolgies and starting the foundations of thier order by beating up the Dragon.

Do you have a source for this? One that doesn't blatantly contradict a Codex?


the SM legions would have schooled the Skitarii, especially if they were led by the Emperor.

Pretty sure you're speaking from a marinewank perspective. Skitarii are like Imperial Guard, but better. Even at the lowest end, they're equivalent to Imperial Guard veterans. At the higher ends? Praetorians.

Kage2020
25-04-2009, 05:45
Do you have a source for this? One that doesn't blatantly contradict a Codex?
The source I'm sure you know: Mechanicus. As to the contradiction of a codex? That's a part and parcel of interpreting the 40k universe--there is no preeminence of 'fluff,' though some might have it that way.

(Of course, I'm not a fan of it myself, but there we go.)

On my behalf, the Great Crusade would have taken longer and felt much like the, well, Crusades. Just without the poster boys.

Kage

Ubermensch Commander
25-04-2009, 08:04
@ Zahr Dalsk

Horus Heresy Art books pretty much state the Big E showed up with his legions of fanatical superwarriors and said "AdMech I want you helping me, not against me."

Since the AdMech had a long history of antagonism and conflict with the tribes of Earth, they needed something to convince them that the Big E wasnt just some other chump demagogue and view the Earthers as something other than scum.
The Space Marines or Proto Space Marines did just that. The religious idiots also fit the Big E into their assbackwards cult prophecies as well. That tends to happen with religions and prophecies though.

Also, not Marinewank. They are the superwarriors that played a critical role in beating back alien horrors and reuniting mankind. Skittarii...not that cool. Powerful, yes. Marine powerful, no. There has been no fluff, codex or otherwise, that has Skitarri beyond about Imperial Guard strength. They do get lovely toys though!

beerdrinker
25-04-2009, 08:20
Solar Macharius achieved great things with a huge army almost entirely made up of guard. The marines played only a very limited side role in the crusade that was second only to the great crusade itself. The only thing that stopped the Macharian Crusade was that they ran out of worlds to conquer.

Brother Gabriel
25-04-2009, 10:08
The webway would be fighting on the eldar's own terms and would be a very epic and cool story concept (so long as in this scenario the Emperor and primarchs or whatever aren't GUARANTEED TO WI N as they were for the great crusade).

Hellebore

But the Imperium would win. Despite terrible losses, Mankind reproduces and doesnt seem to care for losses.
Every Eldar that dies will never be replaced, for every Human that dies there will be 10 more to take its place (look at Krieg for example).

So even if the Eldar win 100 Battles they still lose. The Eldar have no way to ever win.

Lord_Crull
25-04-2009, 15:19
Do you have a source for this? One that doesn't blatantly contradict a Codex?


Mechanicum, but we all know how much you hate Black Library.



Pretty sure you're speaking from a marinewank perspective. Skitarii are like Imperial Guard, but better. Even at the lowest end, they're equivalent to Imperial Guard veterans. At the higher ends? Praetorians.

So? Marines are better than Guard no matter how you look at it. The Space Marine legons in their heyday would screw over the Skitarii royally, it's not Marinewank, but something GW has established as part of the universe and hammered in.

Besides in Dark Apostle the Word Bearers school the regular formations, only to be beaten back by the super weapons the Mechanicus have.



Solar Macharius achieved great things with a huge army almost entirely made up of guard. The marines played only a very limited side role in the crusade that was second only to the great crusade itself. The only thing that stopped the Macharian Crusade was that they ran out of worlds to conquer.

Marines were split up into chapters and had thier powers reduced after the Heresy, they played a much bigger role as legions. Not to mention the Emperor and the Primarchs led them.

Also Macharius is something of an exception, no other Guard commander, not even Creed can equal him.

innerwolf
25-04-2009, 15:53
Imperial piolets in Gundams....:eek:




Sorry, I'm a jerk :D

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2009, 16:05
As I see it, the marines are only needed for one thing; the initial push to get the Emperor established as the leader of Earth, with the Ad. Mech on side.

A small number of marines/proto marines could be a very useful force here, but only a small number are needed, and once you have that first foothold outside the solar system, you don't need to keep creating more.

Past that, there is nothing the did that couldn't be done by conventional, non marine, forces ie the Army, the Navy and the Mechanicum. Better Generals, and a more sensible attitutde to technology would both increase the Imperiums efficiency greatly.

Yes, the marines are a force multiplier in some situations, but how well could that role be served by other well trained and equipped troops? Storm troopers, or sisters of battle, which are well established in the background, and capable of various high intensity actions, such as boarding space hulks in vacuum, are good examples of this.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
25-04-2009, 19:02
Hellbore
The Emperor did not launch his Crusade until after the fall. The fall was started withe Slaneesh's birth which ended all of the warp storms.

It was after he returned to Earth once most of the fighting was done that he started into the webway. So unless he decided to start with the webway earlier, it would have been post-fall Eldar he would have been fighting in the webway.


He may not have had space marines, but Mark I "Thundar Armour" was very common on Earth. The armies he left Earth with once the warp storms cleared could still all be armed with bolters in power armour and supported by Titans from Mars.

The Great Crusade would probably have taken longer then it did with the Space Marine Legions, but he still could have done it.

PondaNagura
25-04-2009, 21:38
thunder armor was part of the problem since it was rather common amongst the various factions of Terra. Marines were a 1-up for the Terawatts, because 1 of them was like a score of men in HtH combat.

logistically [yeah it still is kind of small] the legions afforded potential for incredible manpower and strength poured into a relatively lower number. they would be easier to move around, they were mostly self-sufficient and they could preform battle situations that would break the minds of unaltered humans, power armor or not.

if the GC were to continue without marines not only would it take much longer, but it would require far vaster resources [actual populations] than Terra could probably put out.

Lord_Crull
25-04-2009, 23:01
Yes, the marines are a force multiplier in some situations, but how well could that role be served by other well trained and equipped troops? Storm troopers, or sisters of battle, which are well established in the background, and capable of various high intensity actions, such as boarding space hulks in vacuum, are good examples of this.

Not as well, marines are simply better in space hulks then the strom troopers and Sisters will ever be. Also their are some enviorments where humans cannot survive, such as the Laer's underwater cities and daemon worlds.

Not to mention the Horus Heresy would have happened anyway. Even if the Emperor survives the sheer amount of damage done to the galaxy would prevent ant technoliogical advancement, remember even pre-heresy the Ad Mech where very conservetive.

Not to mention if we are talking about modern day tactics marines are needed bcause they can respond to threats and rebellions quicker than Guard.

Say some Planetary gov rebels, the guard would take time and energy to supress it wheras the marine would get thier quicker and take out the gov and cow thw world back into submission.

Brother Siccarius
25-04-2009, 23:13
If there were no marines, people would go back to complaining about Tau and Orks or something and stop complaining constantly about a couple lines of fluff in a single codex.

Hellebore
26-04-2009, 00:23
Humanity, despite popular opinion, doesn't suck in 40k. Space marines are just SO MUCH BETTER that the leet humans look boring by comparison.

That doesn't mean humanity sucks it just means marines are too good.

The human race could have performed the great crusade without marines it just would have taken longer. Power armour still existed, bolters still existed. Storm Troopers may have been equipped with these instead of carapace and hellguns.

It might have required 3 non marines for every marine to fight the crusade, but you know what? That's entirely possible. Marines were limited by the amount of time taken to do the implants and train them. With the resources of mars tens of millions of storm troopers could have been equipped with power armour.

You would not want for recruits if you didn't have all the biocrap in the way. So although an individual marine might be better than non marines, you could easily make up for it by having an army 10x as big as the marine legions ever were.

Hellebore

Lord Cook
26-04-2009, 00:35
I have to agree to Hellebore. Not to mention the fact that even without all the technological superiority, there are millions of guardsmen for every marine.

Bunnahabhain
26-04-2009, 01:07
Lord Crull, you seem to be taking the situation as now, removing the marines, and assuming nothing has changed without them.

In particular, if there are no marines, and never have been, where does the Horus to lead a heresy come from?

Having elite units as the rapid response units makes sense, but again, it assumes that a a few companies of marines can't be equalled by a few thousand storm troopers or the like.

The real problem is that without the marines, we don't have the horus heresy, and so the background materiel become dangerously grey, rather than black with extra grim dark...

If Humanity are not fighting for their very survival, but instead to dominate the galaxy, then that starts sounding like it might raise moral issues.
If it know science isn't magic, but simple natural laws, then - actually, scrap that clause, most of the world still thinks science is magic, and half those taught science in the West decide they don't want to bother trying to understand it, as it useless and boring and complex and.... I've started to rant, haven't I...- but you know what I mean, if technology in the imperium is that bit better undestood, that is a huge leap in efficiency.
A somewhat more efficient administration system, would again, produce huge increase in efficiency.

Pretty soon you get a virtuous circle. Useful machines and competent administraition lead to happy populations, so fewer internal problems. This allows a greater ability to concentrate force where needed , and so campaigns can be launched to clear areas of space altogther of hostiles.
Competent administration would also extend to spreading some basic knowledge that the military would find useful- ie Burnig orks stops them sporing...

PondaNagura
26-04-2009, 01:13
actually, assuming they get off of Terra and somehow align with Mars, and make passage out of the Sol system it would have been a slow grueling campaign. had the Emperor/AdMech had the capacity to win the wars of the GC without marines, he would have just done so and we wouldn't even be having this debate...?

the Imperium would be small, probably the segmentum solar only. you would still have to recruit, train them indoctrinate them beyond what normal humans are capable of and you would have to eliminate fear from them [psycho-surgeries]. the Emperor would have to henpeck at what campaigns they could run, which worlds they might have to sidestep because they would be too costly to seize, stretch supply runs because humans wear down: they sleepy, hungry and stressed, the troops would be tired and belligerent.
to avoid the whole problem of worlds not falling under compliance they might virus bomb more prevalently and when you take that path then Humanity would lose track of the values they set out with.

Lord_Crull
26-04-2009, 01:44
In particular, if there are no marines, and never have been, where does the Horus to lead a heresy come from?



The Imperial army and Navy and titan legions, if the marines where still as inconseqiential as you say then the Heresy would go largely the same. The Emperor may live but the damage is done.




If Humanity are not fighting for their very survival, but instead to dominate the galaxy, then that starts sounding like it might raise moral issues.
If it know science isn't magic, but simple natural laws, then - actually, scrap that clause, most of the world still thinks science is magic, and half those taught science in the West decide they don't want to bother trying to understand it, as it useless and boring and complex and.... I've started to rant, haven't I...- but you know what I mean, if technology in the imperium is that bit better undestood, that is a huge leap in efficiency.
A somewhat more efficient administration system, would again, produce huge increase in efficiency.

Pretty soon you get a virtuous circle. Useful machines and competent administraition lead to happy populations, so fewer internal problems. This allows a greater ability to concentrate force where needed , and so campaigns can be launched to clear areas of space altogther of hostiles.
Competent administration would also extend to spreading some basic knowledge that the military would find useful- ie Burnig orks stops them sporing...

Thier was a pretty sharp divide in the Mechanicum before the heresy about new tech, the Mechanicus however where aloways concered about getting old tech.

The problem was the Imperium got too big for itself. The sheer size makes it hard to administer, the heresy happened partially because the great crusade was going to fast and the Imperium getting so large. I mean during the Heresy the Imperium had to essentially reconquer a large part of what it once had fought for because normal men rebeled for Horus and themselves.

Good communication and competant administration where hard to come by even in the pre-heresy Imperium, what you are proposing simply will not happen.




Having elite units as the rapid response units makes sense, but again, it assumes that a a few companies of marines can't be equalled by a few thousand storm troopers or the like.



Large numbers does not automaticly equal victory. a few elite troops at the right place and right time will ensure victory over a larger spread out force of inferior troops.

The Grey Knights book has a good example. Their was a daemon planet where any normal human that went to it would be instantly corrupted by this powerful daemon prince. It did not matter how many Guard you sent they would all turn and Chaos would be ''more please''.

Only the Grey Knights stood a chance.

Take also for example on the Laer's oceans. The Guard would never be able to fight at those depths which would have killed normal humans, thus requiring the Emperor's Children to do so.

Not to mention the Imperium faced a lot of powerful alien races and offshots of humanity in those early days that eclipsed the ability of the Imperial army to defeat, because in the early stages of the crusade the Imperium would be a lot smaller and not posses as many men. The astartes where essentially created to match the best of the alien races.

The astartes legions take the hard nuts and the army goes after the easy parts. GW has presented it as the marines being responsible for starting the Great Crusade.

Not to mention timing was essential with the Emperor concerned about getting worlds as fast as he could. He critized the Word Bearers for being too slow.

Brother Siccarius
26-04-2009, 06:44
Humanity, despite popular opinion, doesn't suck in 40k. Space marines are just SO MUCH BETTER that the leet humans look boring by comparison.

That doesn't mean humanity sucks it just means marines are too good.

The human race could have performed the great crusade without marines it just would have taken longer. Power armour still existed, bolters still existed. Storm Troopers may have been equipped with these instead of carapace and hellguns.

It might have required 3 non marines for every marine to fight the crusade, but you know what? That's entirely possible. Marines were limited by the amount of time taken to do the implants and train them. With the resources of mars tens of millions of storm troopers could have been equipped with power armour.

You would not want for recruits if you didn't have all the biocrap in the way. So although an individual marine might be better than non marines, you could easily make up for it by having an army 10x as big as the marine legions ever were.

Hellebore

Actually because their armor and advancements are just about the only things that allows them to act the way they are, and that their actions are what make them the largest force multiplier, they're worth much more than the 1 to 3 ratio. Their ability to survive a drop pod, much less survive landing in one among an enemy HQ position and take out the objective or leader (Thus rendering the army headless and defenseless for a time) is beyond what the simple ratio of 1 marine to 3 guardsmen in a straight fight.

Which is not to say that the Guard are useless with the marines, they're the only ones with the manpower to provide a sweep and mop up mission to totally prevent the threat from resurging later.

The Imperium still couldn't do without both the Guard and the Marines. The fact that everyone has this tunnel vision on the marines is not the fault of either group.

Hellebore
26-04-2009, 07:05
Humanity survived fine without marines up until that point (well up until the psykers did the fandango on the human race). They colonised planets everywhere without marines.

With the science-based approach of the Emperor the guard would be more than they are now.

The emperor realised the quickest way to create the Imperium was using engineered shock soldiers, but it wouldn't be the ONLY way. If he never created the marines his imperium would have still existed, it just would have taken maybe 10x as long.

Marines aren't indespensible warriors without which the human race would go extinct. They are just the best and quickest way to acheive a means to an end. Hell, the human race doesn't NEED the Emperor either, survived just fine before he existed, survived just fine while he manipulated from the background (where he COULDN'T help ALL peoples ALL the time) and survive fine now that all he does is project the astronomicon.

If we start saying that humanity requires marines and emperors to exist we make the human race craptastic the nth degree. They can't do anything themselves they need something BETTER to hold their hands.

I much prefer the idea that, like every other race in the galaxy humanity doesn't NEED marines or primarchs or emperors to exist, those things simply make their existence MUCH MUCH easier.

If the tau can build up an empire in the time they have without a marine force, primarchs or an emperor, imagine what would happen if they DID have those things. They aren't the be all and end all of the human empire existence.

Hellebore

Lord Cook
26-04-2009, 14:14
Hell, the human race doesn't NEED the Emperor either

But can humanity create the Astronomican without the Emperor? Because without the psychic lighthouse, long distance warp travel is virtually impossible. Now humanity must have had some other means of instellar travel before the Astronomican was established, but what about now?

Hellebore
26-04-2009, 14:35
He certainly makes it much much easier, but he is not an indespensible part of the human race. Better to have him than not, but you are then requiring he sacrifice his own existence to keep humanity going in the state it has become accustomed to.

This was posited from the point the emperor did exist as an able bodied individual. His notions of science would have allowed humanity to avoid the dangers that the Imperium now faces.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
26-04-2009, 14:38
He certainly makes it much much easier, but he is not an indespensible part of the human race. Better to have him than not, but you are then requiring he sacrifice his own existence to keep humanity going in the state it has become accustomed to.

This was posited from the point the emperor did exist as an able bodied individual. His notions of science would have allowed humanity to avoid the dangers that the Imperium now faces.

Hellebore


Just like his notions of science prevented the Horus Heresy? Humanity was foused more on rebuilding and reclaming lost tech then advancing at that point.

Krieg Marshall
26-04-2009, 16:27
Personnally I would say that yes the great crusade would have occured. The emperor was well known to be a fine diplomat and a great commander. He would have lead his armies throught space and conquered a certain number of world.

But, this great crusade would have been more expensive in human lives. The adeptus mechanicus would have played an important strategic part, producing more material for the imperial army. Or maybe the adeptus mechanicus won't exist and it would be just like a state production factory.
The other thing is the separation between the army and the navy. There would have been a separation between the two entites, but a certain number of unit would still be a joint operation force just as the USMC, to be a quick reaction force against any threat, just as the space marines, recruiting the best men of an entire sub sector.
This kind of force would maybe get the best equipement that the imperium could provide. Something like entire regiment in carapace armour, in valkyrie air carrier or maybe something else.

About the Heresy, well as someone said, history tends to reapeat, so maybe the Heresy would have occured, but without same consequences, such as that the emperor won't die. If He is a god like, a human rebel general or commander won't stand long in front of him. The inquisition would still be needed to track any chaotic manifestations and to enforce the imperial belief in the god emperor or sort of, acting more like a political police.

The main problem in the hypothesis of this plog is the great crudsade. In the imperial chronology It's the starting point. The space marines were needed to be the core unit of the crusade.
Horus is a space marines primarch, Horus kills the emperor and by that way the emperor became a god.
The inquisition is created to enforce this idea, and the political, religious and military power switch from one man to a new entity: The high lords of Terra.
The imperial armies is dismanteled becoming the guard and the navy, the space marines get all the fancy toys because Guillman decides so and the adeptus mechanicus becomes a real religious cult.

But this is pure speculation

Condottiere
26-04-2009, 17:17
I believe the object of the Crusade was to bring the separated worlds of humanity together, which a nuked out hulk would be counter-productive.

The Marines' ability to knock out strategic targets saved countless worlds from sieges that would have been detrimental to their environment and population. Plus it speeded things up.

Brother Siccarius
26-04-2009, 19:32
Humanity survived fine without marines up until that point (well up until the psykers did the fandango on the human race). They colonised planets everywhere without marines.

With the science-based approach of the Emperor the guard would be more than they are now.

The emperor realised the quickest way to create the Imperium was using engineered shock soldiers, but it wouldn't be the ONLY way. If he never created the marines his imperium would have still existed, it just would have taken maybe 10x as long.

Marines aren't indespensible warriors without which the human race would go extinct. They are just the best and quickest way to acheive a means to an end. Hell, the human race doesn't NEED the Emperor either, survived just fine before he existed, survived just fine while he manipulated from the background (where he COULDN'T help ALL peoples ALL the time) and survive fine now that all he does is project the astronomicon.

If we start saying that humanity requires marines and emperors to exist we make the human race craptastic the nth degree. They can't do anything themselves they need something BETTER to hold their hands.

I much prefer the idea that, like every other race in the galaxy humanity doesn't NEED marines or primarchs or emperors to exist, those things simply make their existence MUCH MUCH easier.

If the tau can build up an empire in the time they have without a marine force, primarchs or an emperor, imagine what would happen if they DID have those things. They aren't the be all and end all of the human empire existence.

Hellebore


Both examples you gave, the Pre-fall humanity and Tau, have amazing control over their technology (And actually the Tau do have Marine equivalents).

Hellebore
27-04-2009, 00:16
Yes, and the emperor's continued existence would have given humanity control over technology. I highly doubt the emperor would have allowed his Imperium to sink into the technoworship seen in the modern imperium. He didn't want superstition.

The tau don't have marine equivalents, because they don't do concerted genetic engineering. They might have military assets that fill the same role, but they aren't the same thing. If the Imperium lacked marines it might have been THEM with battlesuits (as was mentioned early in this thread). They already had power armour.

Hellebore

Balance-keeper
27-04-2009, 00:39
Well if the imperium didn't have marines then they'll just have something like it, or a lot more men...and i suppose chaos would'nt be as big a threat...tho you never know... saying that empires rise and fall its just a matter of time..maybe have marines has halted their fall....or its possible that they are excerating it...if ya think about it the imperium might start leaning towards sience rather than religion and be far more technologicly advanced...maybe on par with the eldar....hmmmm

Lord_Crull
27-04-2009, 01:08
Well if the imperium didn't have marines then they'll just have something like it, or a lot more men...and i suppose chaos would'nt be as big a threat...tho you never know... saying that empires rise and fall its just a matter of time..maybe have marines has halted their fall....or its possible that they are excerating it...if ya think about it the imperium might start leaning towards sience rather than religion and be far more technologicly advanced...maybe on par with the eldar....hmmmm

I doubt it. Most chaos warriors are rebels, mutants and cultists, not marines. and the Imperium woudl lose much of it's rapid strike capacity aginst rebeling worlds.

As for technoligcal advancment, never gonna happen.

Vaktathi
27-04-2009, 01:20
With regards to the beginnings of the Imperium, who knows. Without the Space Marines the Crusade would likely not have gotten off it's feet, but who knows for sure.


In the current timeline however, the Space Marines may very well be superfluous given the size of the Imperial Guard, assuming the often stated 1 SM is equal to 10 other men, (or even assuming 200 or 1000)the IG as a whole is so much more capable it's not even funny, with 1 SM per world in the Imperium and a minimum of several million guardsmen per world if the fluff's "billions of regiments" (each containing thousands of troops) are to be believed (and given the state of earth and the number of people under arms today, it would actually under-arm the Imperium compared to earth today in terms of soldiers as a % of total population). Assuming you take the much quoted number of 1 Space Marine to accomplish what 10 other men would, and make that 200, the Space marines as a whole are only worth about 40,000 regiments, essentially a statistical blip in guard recruitment rates even assuming only a billion regiments (and not multiple billions as suggested by the new codex) essentially meaning the massed might of the space marines (using 20x what the commonly accepted value of an SM is) equal to about 1/25000 of the Imperial Guards fighting strength.



Gogogadget big numbers.

Lord_Crull
27-04-2009, 01:29
With regards to the beginnings of the Imperium, who knows. Without the Space Marines the Crusade would likely not have gotten off it's feet, but who knows for sure.


In the current timeline however, the Space Marines may very well be superfluous given the size of the Imperial Guard, assuming the often stated 1 SM is equal to 10 other men, (or even assuming 200 or 1000)the IG as a whole is so much more capable it's not even funny, with 1 SM per world in the Imperium and a minimum of several million guardsmen per world if the fluff's "billions of regiments" (each containing thousands of troops) are to be believed (and given the state of earth and the number of people under arms today, it would actually under-arm the Imperium compared to earth today in terms of soldiers as a % of total population). Assuming you take the much quoted number of 1 Space Marine to accomplish what 10 other men would, and make that 200, the Space marines as a whole are only worth about 40,000 regiments, essentially a statistical blip in guard recruitment rates even assuming only a billion regiments (and not multiple billions as suggested by the new codex) essentially meaning the massed might of the space marines (using 20x what the commonly accepted value of an SM is) equal to about 1/25000 of the Imperial Guards fighting strength.



Gogogadget big numbers.

Space marines however have a superior rapid strike ability. take for example the short story in the 3rd edition codex and the Taros battle, when a world rebels the marines can get their before the Guard and kill the Gov and cow the world back into submission by cutting off the head before the rebellion can fully take root. thus freeing guard troops for a diffrent warzone.

The Guard would take much longer and would involve full scale war. sometimes a few elite troops at the right moment and time can do more than a larger body of inferior troops. Timing is critical in warfare.

Marines also can fight in places that the Guard cannot simply do, like in Laer's ocean floor and radioactive death worlds.

However the Imperium would fall without the Guard, and marines simply are not full scale war fighters in the massive meatgrinder battles.

Condottiere
27-04-2009, 07:34
Considering the size of the Imperium, you do need a well coordinated force that can react quickly, with minimum preparation and it's own support units.

Marshal2Crusaders
27-04-2009, 10:42
No Marines, No Imperium. Thats the only true answer. Eldar have there own version of Marines and it why they were so damn good.

Condottiere
27-04-2009, 14:23
What is the Eldar version of Space Marines?

Marshal2Crusaders
27-04-2009, 18:34
Aspect's, they form the elite of a Craftworld's armies. But most people don;t consider the fact that Aspects are the same thing as Marines because they don;t have 3+ saves or the MEQ statline.

Condottiere
27-04-2009, 21:16
You're right, even I can't see the Aspects as Space Marines. Eldar specialize, while the Marines are Jack of All Trades.

Vaktathi
27-04-2009, 23:39
Aspect's, they form the elite of a Craftworld's armies. But most people don;t consider the fact that Aspects are the same thing as Marines because they don;t have 3+ saves or the MEQ statline.

They aren't the equivalent of Eldar Space Marines, more the equivalent of Eldar Stormtroopers.

Eldar Aspect Warriors undergo no genetic modification, only intense training and indoctrination and are gifted with above average combat gear. They are much closer to an Eldar equivalent of Imperial Guard Grenadiers or Stormtroopers.

Zahr Dalsk
27-04-2009, 23:43
Eldar Aspect Warriors undergo no genetic modification, only intense training and indoctrination and are gifted with above average combat gear. They are much closer to an Eldar equivalent of Imperial Guard Grenadiers or Stormtroopers.

Bear in mind however that Eldar, like the Orks, are biologically superior to humans in the first place.

Vaktathi
27-04-2009, 23:58
Bear in mind however that Eldar, like the Orks, are biologically superior to humans in the first place. Yes, but Aspect Warriors are physically the same compared to any other Eldar, maybe more physically fit, toned, and trained, but otherwise identical. They aren't any stronger, smarter, tougher, etc than say, Guardians. Any differences are basically in training and equipment. Whereas Space Marines have an entirely different statline than a Guardsmen in every way.

Zahr Dalsk
28-04-2009, 00:01
Yes, but Aspect Warriors are physically the same compared to any other Eldar, maybe more physically fit, toned, and trained, but otherwise identical. They aren't any stronger, smarter, tougher, etc than say, Guardians. Any differences are basically in training and equipment.

Ah, you meant it in that sense. Yes, I agree.

Marshal2Crusaders
28-04-2009, 00:12
No I meant they have the same role in the armies of their races. That is what most people can't see. They also refuse to see the similarities, because god forbid they do anything like Space Marines!

Vaktathi
28-04-2009, 00:41
No I meant they have the same role in the armies of their races. That is what most people can't see. oh, I can see that yeah, but they are also far more numerous relative to the Eldar population as a whole compared with Space Marines to the Imperial Guard. Eldar Warhosts and attack forces almost always include aspect warriors with the exception of most pirates, whereas Space Marines are an extremely rare sight among the forces of the Imperium.

Marshal2Crusaders
28-04-2009, 04:03
Si. Now someone understands! ;P

Condottiere
28-04-2009, 06:35
But Aspects are Eldar that are extremely focussed on their current tasks, and will eventually return to the general population. They are formidable warriors but lack the tactical flexibility of a Marine.

Marshal2Crusaders
28-04-2009, 07:19
Thy are both the Elite of their species and undertake specialist missions, thats the similarity.

Nero
28-04-2009, 09:14
So... Lictors are the Space Marines of the Tyranids? Nobs the Space Marines of the Orks? Flawed logic. Elite of an army != Space Marine equivalent.

Aspect Warriors are not like Space Marines. You don't get armies of nothing but Apsect Warriors, they don't perform the same roles within their respective societies or military, etc.

Besides, the Imperium not only doesn't need the Space Marines, it'd be better off without them. After all, the Imperium grew exponentially while the Emperor was alive. After he died, it's slowing dying even with the help (or despite it) of the Space Marines.

Marshal2Crusaders
28-04-2009, 09:47
Ok, Space Marines are elite warriors who form the vanguard of the Imperium's military campaigns. The Aspect's are the vanguard of the Eldar military campaigns. They are both the iconic images of their races respective 'elite', not in game terms, but actual military terms.

Rangers and Force Recon are formed with similar purposes but are entirely different animals, do you see what I mean?

Aspect's are the pinnacle of Eldar Warriors, Space Marines are the pinnacle of Imperial Warriors. Aspect's are often tasked with nigh impossible missions, as are Space Marines. Does anyone see what I mean. It isn't a comparison in game terms but in their true function. I am not saying Aspect's are elite and so are marines, I am saying they fill the same niche in both races. Crisis Pilots fall into this category as well, as do Nobz.

Don't call my logic flawed. You only posted so you could vomit some marine hate. Grow up, or get a new game. The Imperium needs the Space Marines, the Space Marines need the Imperium.

Lord_Crull
28-04-2009, 11:29
Besides, the Imperium not only doesn't need the Space Marines, it'd be better off without them. After all, the Imperium grew exponentially while the Emperor was alive. After he died, it's slowing dying even with the help (or despite it) of the Space Marines.

So your're saying just let the Imperium die?

Yeah. Right.

parus_ater
28-04-2009, 11:41
Without Marines?
I reckon that 38,000 years earlier, humanity would have been prevented form evolving down an agressive and warlike route had he not had to put up with know-it-all twelve year olds with blue stained fingers. Without this trait, humanity would have fallen to one of the many races in the galaxy prior to the Imperium being founded.

Shadow Fall
28-04-2009, 14:51
Without the support of the adeptus astartes then then humanity would have been put out like a light. Remember that the earliest versions of the marines were those that fought in the wars of unification on terra and those are the marines that held mankinds enemies at bay during the start of the great crusade.

Lets face it there wouldnt hav been an imperium with the astartes, the tiny spark that was humanity would hav been crushed.

Damien 1427
28-04-2009, 19:12
I get the feeling not a lot would change. I get the feeling Storm Troopers would end up in a similar role as Beakies are now, a semi-autonomous rapid response force. Sure, they couldn't take certain enviroments (Although, odds are these hypothetical elite would have powered armour that would operate underwater or in the vaccum of space), but that's what exterminatus is for.

The Heresy wouldn't have happened, and even if it did and Lord High General Horus Lupercal of the Imperial Army was the villain of the piece, he'd still be human. Chaos-imbued, but still, ultimately, human. The Emperor would have snapped him like a twig. Any portential Horus Heresy situation ends with the Emperor winning, and wandering around as happy as you like.

The only problem would be getting the Unification sorted, and conquering the Solar System. That becomes slightly harder without Beakies.

Remember, mankind has one thing most of its enemies lack. Numbers. Numbers, combined with decent equipment, tolerable leadership and good tactical sense. Coupled with slightly better technology that is better understood, and you've a force that could crush anything in the galaxy.

Lord_Crull
28-04-2009, 19:35
I get the feeling not a lot would change. I get the feeling Storm Troopers would end up in a similar role as Beakies are now, a semi-autonomous rapid response force. Sure, they couldn't take certain enviroments (Although, odds are these hypothetical elite would have powered armour that would operate underwater or in the vaccum of space), but that's what exterminatus is for.

The Heresy wouldn't have happened, and even if it did and Lord High General Horus Lupercal of the Imperial Army was the villain of the piece, he'd still be human. Chaos-imbued, but still, ultimately, human. The Emperor would have snapped him like a twig. Any portential Horus Heresy situation ends with the Emperor winning, and wandering around as happy as you like.

The only problem would be getting the Unification sorted, and conquering the Solar System. That becomes slightly harder without Beakies.

Remember, mankind has one thing most of its enemies lack. Numbers. Numbers, combined with decent equipment, tolerable leadership and good tactical sense. Coupled with slightly better technology that is better understood, and you've a force that could crush anything in the galaxy.

The Emperor may win but the damage would already be done. If The Emperor survived the battle with Horus and continued to lead the Imperium they still would have to essentialy start the Great Crusade over again. Half of the Imperium went traitor while others went renagade for their own ends. The Scouring was extemely bloody.

Besides if the Emperor does not go n the Golden Throne how would that impact the Astromonican?

Vaktathi
28-04-2009, 20:58
Besides if the Emperor does not go n the Golden Throne how would that impact the Astromonican?

It already worked without him plugged into the throne directly over the course of the great crusade when he was on the front lines, I'm sure it would work just fine if he wasn't almost dead.

Lord_Crull
28-04-2009, 22:57
It already worked without him plugged into the throne directly over the course of the great crusade when he was on the front lines, I'm sure it would work just fine if he wasn't almost dead.


Where does it say that?

Regardless I doubt thier would be much tech-progression yet. The Mechanicum was pretty conservative back then and more focused on getting back lost tech.

RusVal
30-04-2009, 20:38
Regardless I doubt thier would be much tech-progression yet. The Mechanicum was pretty conservative back then and more focused on getting back lost tech.

Why not? Just make improvements while they are not looking and go "hey! Look what I found in the STC that is now conveniently blown into unrecognizable slag!"

"What unrecognizable slag?"

*Blam* "That one."

:p

Emperor's Grace
30-04-2009, 21:45
I think that you'd see the Terran Empire as one of a "patchwork quilt" of small empires vying for control of local space.

Remember that the big E's tech advantage (access to prefall tech) would be offset by those world's that retained pre-fall tech (and they seem to be all over the place in the novels...).

Locked in a multifaction civil war and being preyed on by xenos from the outside, humanity would be fighting for it's life but technically advanced. If pacts were made, I could see a Dune- like "houses" structure forming for common defense.

Altogether, it might be an even more fascinating echo of the current setting. Certainly would set up the idea of a political/diplomacy metagame or expansion.