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kendaop
24-04-2009, 15:54
I've been around since 3rd ed, and I've seen how much GW has improved since then:

more options in squad boxes
more units in plastic
codices that are longer than 25 pages
etc.

Anyways, I wanted to start this thread to see if anyone else agrees with me that this new wave of codices all seem to be pretty balanced and competetive, in comparison with the other new wave codices (Orks, Daemons, IG, SM, and maybe Chaos). Granted, some people will call it codex creep that they are all more powerful than the older codices IMHO, but I wonder if it's mainly due to the restructuring GW went through a time back (getting rid of Chambers, etc). And I wonder if, once we finally get around to the point where GW is re-writing the current new codices, if they actually won't get more powerful, just different.

Anyone agree with me? Other thoughts?

Chaos and Evil
24-04-2009, 16:02
Yep, I think GW is doing a terrific job!

Exterminatus
24-04-2009, 16:05
I love GW!!!

MrMojoZ
24-04-2009, 16:06
I see slightly less complaining about them now than I used to.

DarthFreder
24-04-2009, 16:11
Personally I dislike the new codices like Eldar, Chaos aso. The options are fewer and discription of Wargear and unit kept seperatly are not so goog.

kendaop
24-04-2009, 16:13
Personally I dislike the new codices like Eldar, Chaos aso. The options are fewer and discription of Wargear and unit kept seperatly are not so goog.

That's why I didn't include Eldar in the list of new wave codices. I doesn't seem to follow some of the same patterns as the others. And chaos maybe shouldn't be in the list either.

BobTheZombie
24-04-2009, 16:15
I know this is opening a can of worms (best colloquialism ever), but the CSM codex is far too bland for me. The new layouts seem to make sense, I like the second wave release idea as well.

What I don't like are the constant price raises and the Big Corporation image they present (not helping TSOALR, 3 month window) for example. And White Dwarf. Could do better.

They're improving, I'd say. The new expansions add a lot to the game.

Ubermensch Commander
24-04-2009, 17:04
Interestingly enough, I would include the new waved of codices to include the latest Eldar codex and onward. GW has been doing an excellent job in terms of balance and direction,IMO, since then. The wargear is still there, simply in a different format. And apparantly a less abusable format as well. Still abusable, but less so.

The books are a really good size, have great fluff in them, and after a few organizational snafus, like the Eldar codex with the rules being all over the place and vehicle upgrades being right next to the War Walkers...who cannot even get most of the upgrades, are well constructed.

The price hikes are a result of economy. Alot (hesistant to say everything) of things have been going up in price. That is simply the reality of the situation. Blaming GW is absurd. Besides, lets be honest, the game has always been expensive. Wouldn't want them to break character now, would we? *grins*

The codicies are well balanced at this time. There are a few broken builds, but as a whole its less of an clusterfrage than from mid 3rd to late 4th edition. *waves at the old 3.5 Chaos Codex*

The only thing that REALLY needs improving IMO is White Dwarf. I miss IA articles and similar bits. They do not even have to throw in rules, I just want fluff! I love the Lord of the Rings and Tolkiens work but I do NOT care about the game.

petpetpetpet
24-04-2009, 17:07
I love GW for what they did to Fantasy lol

Spider-pope
24-04-2009, 17:13
The only thing that REALLY needs improving IMO is White Dwarf. I miss IA articles and similar bits. They do not even have to throw in rules, I just want fluff! I love the Lord of the Rings and Tolkiens work but I do NOT care about the game.

Whilst i dont agree with the LOTR part,since i love both LOTR games, i have to second this. Although with recent issues, White Dwarf is getting better. The inclusion of the Old War Stories article, for example, was very much in the spirit of the days when we could expect to see a Mike Walker rant, or a Nigel Stillman article on the benefits of not painting swords on metal models and instead using sandpaper to make it shine (!)

I cant really fault the latest codex's either, and the reformat to have the army list at the very back of the book was a great idea, saves flicking through half the book just to make an army list.

Now if they could only bring back Inferno as well...

freddieyu
24-04-2009, 17:19
The models, especially the plastics, are terrific...

For 40k it has been good, whfb started ok in 7th ed, until recent army books brought back no brainer magichammer armies, and that took the fun out of it...

Raibaru
24-04-2009, 18:15
Having played through 2nd, 3rd, and part of fourth, and just now coming back into 5th, I'd have to say the biggest improvement they've done is in their models. They look much more dynamic and detailed, and thank god they're making the move over to plastic.

The biggest down sides is easily White Dwarf, which I canceled several years ago around when LotR came out because they moved so far from the hobby and turned the magazine more into a sales pitch.

The codex are also still no where close to second edition. I am so thankful that I have about 5 of the second edition codex and even to this day I routinely check ebay for some of the other ones (I've tried to get Angels of Death 3 times now and each time the seller has been a dirt bag).

Their website has also gone incredibly down hill. It's like a corporate website and has no real value to the hobby anymore.

They should make a real effort to get some of the old fiction (especially the second edition stuff) up on their website for free. And although I don't really miss it that much, it was fun talking to people on their official website forums from time to time. Especially when the developers stopped by occasionally.

And the obligatory price gouging has to be mentioned too.

CKO
24-04-2009, 18:18
GW is doing a great job, there are some who complain but they still play the game so their complaints are futile. I cant wait to see how they are going to attack the US tourny scene after some evaulations.

sigur
24-04-2009, 18:22
Interestingly enough, I would include the new waved of codices to include the latest Eldar codex and onward. GW has been doing an excellent job in terms of balance and direction,IMO, since then. The wargear is still there, simply in a different format. And apparantly a less abusable format as well. Still abusable, but less so.

Agreed. Codex Eldar definately was the first in the line of the new format and it's a good format. Basically the one they had in 2nd edition. And codices are almost back to the size of codices from back then too. I'm having no problems at all with the wargear section being gone. It was a real problem for beginners, was overly long and plain unnecessary because at least half of the items wasn't used anyway. I'm being optimistic on this one and think that the new codices are also pretty balanced towards each other and the rules work nicely (for the fact that they, for what mystic reason ever, they don't use modifiers).

Not releasing a whole new range for everything with each new codex was a totally unsustainable thing and really unreasonable. Good that they almost got away from it. Three "waves" of releases would be optimal, I think.

WD is pretty bad but whatever. It's been like that for many, many years. Also too expensive to justify buying it.

Don't know why they had to totally destroy the system just to torture us and them with a slow, slow process of rebuilding the game. But anyway, GW are doing a good job now.

tortoise
24-04-2009, 18:27
I think that in terms of the quality of their products they're doing an excellent job. By that I mean that the codexes are large, have generally good artwork and good background and that the models are really very good. In fact some of them are so good that I'm actually liking some plastic kits more than metals (I usually prefer the detail of metal to the flexibility of plastic as I'm more of a painter than gamer. The newer plastics still aren't as detailed as metal but they're getting there)

Although this isn't 40k related really I think the turning point for me was the Vampire Counts and Daemons army books (and codex for the daemons). The model ranges that accompanied those releases were brilliant and the books were fantastic just to read.

In terms of game balance and rules though, I don't see any improvements being made really. I don't like 5th ed very much at all. Then again, I just haven't played enough games to appreciate any level of intricacy the system may have.

Lewis
24-04-2009, 18:40
Codecies, yes.

Introducing more plastic, yes.

Reducing 20 model boxes to ten and reducing the cost by only 1/3. No.

With the introuction of multipart plastic models GW began to improve after the dip from the end of 3rd through the single part plastic models. However if rumours are true and 10 models (especially repackaged guard) will cost 15 quid is the begining of significant fall again.

noobzilla
24-04-2009, 18:53
I like the direction that GW is going in, I think if they stay the course, they should be able to put their games back to their former glory if they keep improving. If everyone keeps getting codexs that can compete with, or are better than, Codex: Ork. The book doesn't seem so unbalanced any more and we all enjoy.

Models are great, they seem to just get better and better, and I love the new options that come with the models. For Command Squads you are actually given the options your commander can buy, so you don't have to spend too much time converting.

Giganthrax
24-04-2009, 18:55
Yep, I think GW is doing a terrific job!
Quoted for truth. :)

Corrode
24-04-2009, 19:16
Reducing 20 model boxes to ten and reducing the cost by only 1/3. No.

With the introuction of multipart plastic models GW began to improve after the dip from the end of 3rd through the single part plastic models. However if rumours are true and 10 models (especially repackaged guard) will cost 15 quid is the begining of significant fall again.

Welcome to being an Ork player ;) At least we can get the AoBR Orks cheaply, I suppose.

Brother Gabriel
24-04-2009, 19:25
Yes they really do a good job with 40K. I nearly all but stopped playing FB, because 40K is so much more fun for me right now.
And since we just started here to play a story driven Apo Campaign with restrictions on FOC, with a game every two months, i like it even more.

W0lf
24-04-2009, 19:29
40K has improved quite alot with the exeption of the chaos book.. aka the only book im interested in for 40K.

Oh and Fantasy is imo recovering from the HE->Vamps->Daemons->DE Broken mainia

WallWeasels
24-04-2009, 19:30
My biggest complaint of GW currently is White Dwarf. Its gone up in price and basically improved none at all since they removed Chapter Approved (Which atleast led some good reasons to read it through) and largely just filled with news most of us know :(

Snotteef
24-04-2009, 19:30
With a few exceptions, I also think the new codices are beautiful and fairly balanced. Codex Eldar WAS definitely the beginning of this new trend. I love that you can represent all the major craftworlds w/o sublists (or special characters... yay).

The miniatures are quite beautiful and some of the new Ork stuff is starting to get its character back, but I wish they'd try harder to put all the options in the plastic boxes. Guard boxes should include plasma and meltaguns; the Ork Battlewagon should include Rokkits, grot riggers, and a deff-rolla, etc. But, in general, it's all good stuff.

Cane
24-04-2009, 19:31
I've been around since 3rd ed, and I've seen how much GW has improved since then:

more options in squad boxes
more units in plastic
codices that are longer than 25 pages
etc.



I too came from third edition, and I agree for the most part what you wrote. The content in current codices is great and I'm glad at least some kind of rulebook is offered in the starter box set. Overall fifth edition is a more enjoyable gameplay experience than third as well.

However as an IG player I absolutely loathe what they're doing to the "new" 10 man set - its basically just half of the 20 man set at a jacked up price; offering bitz and kit that seems like the worst value out of all the 10 man troop box sets.

Have GW's quality coincided with their increased prices? A resounding no for IG players since the majority of our plastic kits haven't gotten a real MK2 update unlike the Rhino and we've got ancient models like the Catachans; but we'll see what the new tank kits look like.

aberrant_unc
24-04-2009, 20:19
Codex Eldar was a step in the right direction... the Chaos Codex took the blandness a little too far, but they learned from that mistake in the last few codexes, all of which have been pretty good.

the1stpip
24-04-2009, 20:20
The last few codexes have certainly been an improvement, but I don't think codex crep is a real issue. Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and Sisters have all got 3rd ed codexes still and they are still more than capable of beating the new ones.

I agree that I miss the old WD. I loved Mike Walkers footnotes, these days it is all self congratulatory back slapping (yes, I man you Hall of Fame Miniatures thingy).

druchii
24-04-2009, 20:40
Wait,
A thread of people praising GW?

Oh yeah, that's why it's only two pages long...

That being said: I love GW for what they're doing with 40k. 5th edition is beatiful, and the new armies are getting fantastically balanced (save the unit sizes on nob bikers and ork boys) and fun! With each codex having relatively few "useless" units (spawn, beasts of nurgle, swooping hawks, I'm looking at you!).

The inclusion of Chaos Demons was fantastic also, giving us a brand new army that plays completely differently than anything else.

Maybe now they can update the oooold codexes.. (like SWs and DE, not that they NEED new books for balance, just because their players have been waiting so long!).

d

kendaop
24-04-2009, 20:57
Wait,
A thread of people praising GW?

Oh yeah, that's why it's only two pages long...


Well, I only just created this thread this morning...and it'll get longer.

And I like the Daemons codex, too. My plaguebearer army is one of my favorites. The unique style of play was a great thing to add to 40k, it keeps people on their toes. My only wish is that they could've allowed an alternate style of play to your army, while keeping the same god.

sycopat
24-04-2009, 20:58
I think GW are doing a good job tbh.

Wall of text powers: ACTIVATE!

The website was never that great (It is worse now than it used to be, but imho, not much, and if they see to republishing a few of the old articles/a few new articles it could be better)

White Dwarf used to be pretty good, got crap there for a long time, and seems to be slowly picking itself up again. I've actually bought a few recently, and the word count seems to be going up slowly... (I think the main problem with white dwarf is a) Lack of content: Pretty pictures are nice, but there's probably still not even 250 words per page, not counting advertising text/photo taglines. Really they still need to double the amount of content, at least, and that still wouldn't be great. b) It's far too close to the corporate side of GW, by which I mean it's blatantly being used as a marketing tool and advertising vehicle and nothing else. This is fine, to an extent, but unless it offers some sort of service to it's potential readership, they will stay potential. Currently even when the magazine tries to offer a service, it fails and just ends up a showcase for how great GW products are.)

I like the ever increasing quality of the plastics, the directions the game are going, the output of the black library is always improving (Though I think they were mad to close black industries...)

The price going up doesn't seem as gouging as it used to be all things considered (Although this may be because I'm finally making my own way in the world and finally have "disposable income". From this point of view, it's cheaper than videogames.;))

Ruleswise? I think they're going well with 40k. I preferred 3.5 chaos over the current dex, but I don't think the new dex is bad, just a bit boring. The increasing amounts of fluff in the books is nice to see, and imo, a lot of the old wargear was unnecessarily complicated.

This new trend of tying variant army lists to special charachters seems to actually work, but I'd prefer if they tied it more to specific HQ loadouts, I feel it would help make armies more unique (In feeling, obviously the actuality would be very different)

isidril93
24-04-2009, 20:59
although i have not been playing too long (beginning of 7ed) you could see a difference (eg. between bfsp and aobr, the quality of the plastics...even in those few years such as dwarve plastics and the new chaos ones)

druchii
24-04-2009, 21:03
Well, I only just created this thread this morning...and it'll get longer.

And I like the Daemons codex, too. My plaguebearer army is one of my favorites. The unique style of play was a great thing to add to 40k, it keeps people on their toes. My only wish is that they could've allowed an alternate style of play to your army, while keeping the same god.

To be fair, nurgle is the one that mainly gets stuck using Epi. You could easily run an all slaanesh list using Horrors as counts-as tree-demons (there's a story about the slaaneshi forest in her realm, where the demons resemble trees and flowers and spit/trow poisoned spines) or many other options (the nurgle Screamer-flies are GREAT examples).

d

Oh, and I typed this ENTIRE post using my RIGHT hand!

Raibaru
24-04-2009, 21:09
Which begs the question what you were doing with your left while typing so passionately about slaaneshi demons and what not.

kendaop
24-04-2009, 21:35
lol! it woulda been easier if you were left-handed

EVIL INC
24-04-2009, 21:40
Personally I dislike the new codices like Eldar, Chaos aso. The options are fewer and discription of Wargear and unit kept seperatly are not so goog.

Actually, chaos has been shown to now have more options but that is a different threads altogether.
An option to the other would be to put a page# to go to in the list to direct you to the exact page a piece of wargear is explained on.
Overall, I am especially happy to see the new and wider variety of models and the greater number of options being included in each model/set.

LonelyPath
24-04-2009, 22:52
Having played 40k since Rogue Trader was first realsed (yep, I got RT on day of release all those years ago heheh) I think GW have done a great job of things. The game started off with a huge mess of things that have become more streamlined and alot faster to play. Things that were weird have mostly been removed from being playable and some have been archived and returned in some limited form (vortex grenades, conversion beamers, etc.). The plastics are generally of great quality with a few exceptions (mostly from bad moldings that have escaped the factory, but were easily exchanged).

Metal minis have a good sculpt to them also, but they were always the better in scuplting detail. Even so, they've improved immensely.

Release schedules now exist properly with a semblance to the grand old tradition still shining through with the collectors series.

In all GW are doing a great job, though I wish they had held out a bit longer for the last price increase since it came into effect when nearly everything they nagged about to warrant the increase suddenly dropped in price, lol.

AmBlam
25-04-2009, 01:30
Anyways, I wanted to start this thread to see if anyone else agrees with me that this new wave of codices all seem to be pretty balanced and competetive,

I, personally, don't.

I think most Warhammer players need to believe that GW are doing a good job because it forms the basis of thier existence.

I see too much reasoning based on two wrongs make a right.

a) Warhammer used to be horribly balanced.
b) Warhammer is terribly balanced but it is better than it was.
c) Hence GW are doing a good job.

People normally try and alienate posters like this which simply goes on to proove the posters point.

GW increases prices because they can't increase sales because their game balance sucks. At least that is how I see it. GW has a negative reputation now among board gaming non-warhammer players. It has that reputation for a reason.

I like Warhammer, I just don't like GW.

101st Vostroyan
25-04-2009, 01:35
I think WD should have a page or 2 devoted to specialist games. Also, I think that the newer codexes are GREAT!!! I still have my old 30 page Blood Angels codex(I know Its shorter because it is an add-on codex) and after seeing them drift away from the 20 page books, I see more good things coming...Cross our fingers for plastic Titans...:D

techman
25-04-2009, 03:57
YAY GW:

WD are getting better, but they should have more conversions and painting (my true love) and specialist

CODEX's ARE AWSOME!!! only thing they need to do is list weapons twice...in the armory section so I dont have to flip back to the unit entry.

Boo GW:

Useless price increases...they dont really need them, yes their being hit like everyone else, but they've already incresed not even 6 months ago.

The rules have really not tactics (I've noticed this......lets just say I'm not the best historical tactician), it's what gives them the bad rep (that and the amount of kids playing)

Lord Merlin
25-04-2009, 04:02
Only thing that drives me crazy is the **** book layout. There are two pieces of kit unique to the ironclad dreadnought. One is in its entry in the fluff listings and the other is in the wargear. I don't care where they are as long as they're in the same place.

Francois
25-04-2009, 05:00
Thank you for a thread praising Games Workshop's wonderful products! I am just starting Witch Hunters, which I'm told has an old codex. But people say that army is very competitive when played right, so even if there is power inflation, things still seem very good:)

Have a nice weekend,
Frankie

Ubermensch Commander
25-04-2009, 07:54
I, personally, don't.

I think most Warhammer players need to believe that GW are doing a good job because it forms the basis of thier existence.

I see too much reasoning based on two wrongs make a right.

a) Warhammer used to be horribly balanced.
b) Warhammer is terribly balanced but it is better than it was.
c) Hence GW are doing a good job.

People normally try and alienate posters like this which simply goes on to proove the posters point.


I like Warhammer, I just don't like GW.

If something is improving, its not two wrongs make a right, its acknowledging things are getting better and celebrating an upwards trend.

The game is FUN. Folks play it, because it is enjoyable for them. For many, this current incarnation is entertaining and compared to the shitfest that was late 3rd edition it is, as a whole, getting better and more balanced. By going to websites and proclaiming it is fun we hope to share our enthusiasm with like minded folks who, one may presume, are on an online forum because they enjoy the game rather than simply wishing to **** on someone else's parade.


And i think you have it backwards, as most posters that are complaining, do it ad nauseum, as seen the multitude of online threads that are predominantly negative and then go on to alienate everyone else. Within those negative threads, those who do not like the new SC system, or feel its aimed at kids now, or whatever the argument may be, tend to take an arbitrary elitist attitude based almost solely upon their own personal opinion, denouncing all those who do not agree as "fanbois". By presenting personal bias as the height of intellectual capabilities and denouncing other folks opinions of how they enjoy their game as flawed reasoning is quite abrasive and can really get the hackles up.

Also, we may judge the game better not because it forms the basis of our "existence" but because we can only compare the 40K game and decide what we like. There is no point in looking at, say, Starcraft and proclaiming since 40K is not Starcraft and not striving to be like Starcraft it is therefore bunk and we are all stupid for not saying it is garbage. We can only look at the game as it is now and then compare to how it was then. I enjoyed it then, I enjoy it now. The game is still entertaining and I enjoy the direction it has taken. Its not the basis for my existence but its a damn fun, if pricey, hobby.

Do not like? Fair enough. But how bout not insulting everyone who does by calling their opinions bunk based on flawed reasoning or inferring everyone who likes it is a fanboi or some such because it forms the "basis of existence"

Lone Gunman
25-04-2009, 08:53
GW had some down time imo in recent years. But the new editions of Fantasy and especially 40k. The games gets more balanced. And you have to remember one thing. GW is a company and leader in tabletop games. Like it or not. It's been around 25 years while the next few other tabletops are just max. 8 years. GW made errors, yes. Did they learn? Perhaps. Taking into account the development of other games (Warmachine, Confrontation, etc...) both systems came to a point where both were no longer fun to play. Con actually made a radical change and is just getting up again while WM for a long time denied that the game had any faults and that all power creep/combos were intentional and solely focused on tournament play rather than casual game.
GW in this regard has become predictable, they are a company and have to make money for the shareholders.



Oh, and hey to all in this forum! :)

Robineng
25-04-2009, 09:05
Not really all that much to complain about since they're doing a overall good job. The two things that annoys me the most is the removal of the bitz service and the website becoming just another online store with little to no hobby value.

AmBlam
26-04-2009, 18:47
If something is improving, its not two wrongs make a right, its acknowledging things are getting better and celebrating an upwards trend.

The game is FUN. Folks play it, because it is enjoyable for them. For many, this current incarnation is entertaining and compared to the shitfest that was late 3rd edition it is, as a whole, getting better and more balanced. By going to websites and proclaiming it is fun we hope to share our enthusiasm with like minded folks who, one may presume, are on an online forum because they enjoy the game rather than simply wishing to **** on someone else's parade.


And i think you have it backwards, as most posters that are complaining, do it ad nauseum, as seen the multitude of online threads that are predominantly negative and then go on to alienate everyone else. Within those negative threads, those who do not like the new SC system, or feel its aimed at kids now, or whatever the argument may be, tend to take an arbitrary elitist attitude based almost solely upon their own personal opinion, denouncing all those who do not agree as "fanbois". By presenting personal bias as the height of intellectual capabilities and denouncing other folks opinions of how they enjoy their game as flawed reasoning is quite abrasive and can really get the hackles up.

Also, we may judge the game better not because it forms the basis of our "existence" but because we can only compare the 40K game and decide what we like. There is no point in looking at, say, Starcraft and proclaiming since 40K is not Starcraft and not striving to be like Starcraft it is therefore bunk and we are all stupid for not saying it is garbage. We can only look at the game as it is now and then compare to how it was then. I enjoyed it then, I enjoy it now. The game is still entertaining and I enjoy the direction it has taken. Its not the basis for my existence but its a damn fun, if pricey, hobby.

Do not like? Fair enough. But how bout not insulting everyone who does by calling their opinions bunk based on flawed reasoning or inferring everyone who likes it is a fanboi or some such because it forms the "basis of existence"

The time GW have taken over balancing the game and thier dependence upon it for profit make me skeptical at best of such celebrations.

When people call something negative and positive I find it immensly bias as if they have the last say on what is, and that positivism is simply liking things. The idea that people who complain (whine as it is spun) are negative is woeful.

You are more reasonable than those you "represent" I think you wear the goggles when you look at them.

I never insulted anyone or called anyone a fanboi :angel:

These threads seem to be hysterical, not in the insulting ha-ha sense.

Balanced Warhammer players will always be at odds with fanbois. (I am not calling anyone a fanboi..)

Kobrakai
26-04-2009, 18:50
It's nice to see a thread like this once in awhile.

We are always complaining about prices and things like that; but in all fairness they do a hell of a lot which a lot of the time goes un-noticed!

Sure somethings are bad, but some of the best things in life have flaws :)

Kirasu
26-04-2009, 18:57
All I gotta say on GW prices is this

Until GW models are more expensive than smoking and/or drinking then it's not *that* expensive..

If people can afford cancer sticks they can afford gaming supplies :p you cant even reuse cigs or alcohol (Unless you consider getting pregnant at a drunken party 18 years of reusable fun)

Kobrakai
26-04-2009, 19:03
(Unless you consider getting pregnant at a drunken party 18 years of reusable fun)

Best GW half related comment ever!