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catbarf
24-04-2009, 21:20
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered. Veterans are too cheap. Valkyries are the best skimmers in the game. Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy.

But the new codex has options. Doctrines may be gone, yet almost all of them (Carapace armor comes to mind as an exception) can be recreated within the default choices. Anything that seems too cheap, I'll house rule to pay extra. I doubt anyone would mind that.

It's just a game, and too many people are getting hung up on who's going to beat who in a tournament setting. The new book provides dozens of vehicles, a whole slew of special characters, and cool new options that reflect the fluff of the Guard.

So I don't care if it's cheesy, or broken, or spammable. In the end, as long as everyone has a fun game, everybody wins. Focus on what matters most.

Chaos and Evil
24-04-2009, 21:24
GW's core games aren't designed for tournament play anyway, they're meant to be a lose framework upon which you build your hobby and your games... so you've got a cool approach IMHO.

MrMojoZ
24-04-2009, 21:25
Just play with the terrible 3.5 codex then if the new one is going to cause you to whine so much.

catbarf
24-04-2009, 21:37
Just play with the terrible 3.5 codex then if the new one is going to cause you to whine so much.

Please re-read for comprehension.


GW's core games aren't designed for tournament play anyway, they're meant to be a lose framework upon which you build your hobby and your games... so you've got a cool approach IMHO.

Hit the nail on the head, I agree entirely. For me, the game is secondary to the fluff, theme, and visual aspect of my army. And besides, it's not like you're going to be banned from the game if you alter the rules as you see fit.

Korras
24-04-2009, 21:40
and Carapace armour can be used too by troops, albeit they'll be veterans.

Justicar_Freezer
24-04-2009, 21:42
catbarf I think you have a good idea there. Afterall this is a game and it's supposed to be fun. So you and you're group should feel free to do what you want with the rules as long as everyone in your group agrees and has fun with it.

I haven't seen the new guard codex yet but I know if I my group dosen't like it we simply won't use it. Just the way we haven't bought the new marine codex yet and our chaos players still use the old chaos dex.

We're all still having fun and that's all that should matter in any gaming group.

FunkyRatDemon
24-04-2009, 21:48
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered. Veterans are too cheap. Valkyries are the best skimmers in the game. Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy.

But the new codex has options. Doctrines may be gone, yet almost all of them (Carapace armor comes to mind as an exception) can be recreated within the default choices. Anything that seems too cheap, I'll house rule to pay extra. I doubt anyone would mind that.

It's just a game, and too many people are getting hung up on who's going to beat who in a tournament setting. The new book provides dozens of vehicles, a whole slew of special characters, and cool new options that reflect the fluff of the Guard.

So I don't care if it's cheesy, or broken, or spammable. In the end, as long as everyone has a fun game, everybody wins. Focus on what matters most.

Hot-SHots are ectremely limited, and still S3...I really am not worried, especially when I can usually pull off a 4+cover save for my CSM's

Vets are cheap, so what? Many people will end up spending the extra pts to make them Grenadiers or something like that so they are not that cheap, I find them best used as a Kamikaze unit w/ Special Weapons...

Valks are really good, you won't see 9 on the table though (like Obliterator spam)

Primaris Psyker is cool, still dies to pretty much any shooting though and needs to be relativly close to be effective
Psyker Battle Squadron I doubt will see much tournament play, fun with Assassins though. They will only be effective for 1-2turns IMO

I'm more worried about Tank spam then anything else, simply because no army should be forced to swap out Plasmaguns exclusivly for Meltas to deal with that threat

Most special characters are 'meh' at best, or the army has to be built around them

Lord Of The Avatars
24-04-2009, 21:53
OK: you got this wrong m8. they are making the codexes more powerful, i mean orks are a hell of alot more powerful, as is the space marines! i mean, the eldar are just completely weak when i play these guys, but i do well against others... that explains it dont you think matey? -.-

Vepr
24-04-2009, 21:53
So far I have only played the new guard once. Pretty sound butt whupping but he did know my list ahead of time because he has played my swarm oriented nids before. I might bump myself up to three fexes and see how I do. The first game he went first and I started off in template hell. :cries: :p

catbarf
24-04-2009, 22:01
Hot-SHots are ectremely limited, and still S3...I really am not worried, especially when I can usually pull off a 4+cover save for my CSM's

From a fluff perspective, it seems very odd for a lasgun (albeit an overcharged one) to liquify SM armor. Besides, a squad of ten Storm Troopers firing two shots apiece is going to, on average, kill a little over four Space Marines per volley. If they're in 5+ cover, it's about 3 exactly.


Vets are cheap, so what? Many people will end up spending the extra pts to make them Grenadiers or something like that so they are not that cheap, I find them best used as a Kamikaze unit w/ Special Weapons...

While I agree with your other points, I think this is a strange argument. If they pay more points to get special abilities, then they're no longer cheap but instead have special abilities. They're not losing out.

squeekenator
24-04-2009, 22:06
No, the new Guard codex is not broken. I really hope you weren't being serious there. Stormtroopers and Veterans are probably the two worst units in the book. Paying 16 points for a T3, W1, 4+ save unit with a S3 gun is never going to be worth it. Ever. Veterans are, IIRC, more than 50% more expensive than basic Guardsmen, in exchange for which they get +1 BS, which is a slight improvement, and defensive grenades, which is a slight drawback (yes, really). Vendettas are certainly scary, but they're so big that you literally can't spam them because of table size, and they can be shot down easily, since they can't really get cover. And Primaris Psykers are hardly better than Sorcerers. For a start, they can't get Lash.

Bloodknight
24-04-2009, 22:12
Veterans are 75% more expensive than a Guardsman, and they get +1BS. That's it. The defensive grenades are part of one of the 30 point upgrades which in general are not worth it.

Khornies & milk
24-04-2009, 22:22
OP...I understand where you're coming from, and yes, the new IG Codex will be quite powerful in the right hands, but people are just going to have to accept that....anything else and they're just being whiners/bad sports/poor losers.....take your pick.

As you say - it's only a game.

squeekenator
24-04-2009, 22:33
Veterans are 75% more expensive than a Guardsman, and they get +1BS. That's it. The defensive grenades are part of one of the 30 point upgrades which in general are not worth it.

Ah, okay. That must have been one of the (surprisingly few) incorrect rumours. And yeah, the 30pt upgrades are horrendous. Compare a squad of 10 carapace Veterans to a squad of 10 Battle Sisters (same slot, same cost [IIRC], same army thanks to allies). Far weaker gun, worse Ld, carapace instead of power armour, no access to Faith or the dreaded Book. The other two are harder to do direct comparisons for, but paying 11pts for a Guardsman with BS4 is never going to be worth it.

samiens
24-04-2009, 22:33
I don't think its that hard from my reading yesterday. that said, there are many cool little additions (rending guardsman lol) and its nice to see Guard (who i hate) getting some power for once. Anyway, as for the tourney scene, twice the pride (or power); double the fall. Seriously, I'm sure we can develop tactics to beat it. outsuide of the tourney scene- who cares so long as it looks cool!

Heimlich
24-04-2009, 22:39
Just play with the terrible 3.5 codex then if the new one is going to cause you to whine so much.

Now we all can see that you can type, but I seriously doubt your ability to read....

Anyways, it's the new book now, being are going to be tearing into it. Like every book before it's going to be subject to that sort of thing. "Power creep, cheese, etc."
I look at it as being a challenge, as I expect my opponent to be challenged as well by my army.

Bunnahabhain
24-04-2009, 22:41
The new codex isn't overpowered. My gut feeling, with a few roughly correct lists, is that it's about on a par with the new marine one, ie it has a few very good units, a perfectly good core, and still has an amount of dross.

It's just that it's such a big step up from the last one, it will seem a little overpowered for a while, just like the current marine one seemed underpowered, in comparison to the old one.

Valkyries do seem a bit underpriced, but the size and LOS issues are going to limit them considerably, and they are in direct competition with two other great units.

catbarf
24-04-2009, 22:43
Veterans are 75% more expensive than a Guardsman, and they get +1BS. That's it. The defensive grenades are part of one of the 30 point upgrades which in general are not worth it.

It's actually 40% more expensive than basic troops, and they have access to some truly nasty weapons (and really, the BS upgrade pays for itself when you load up on heavy guns). A squad of ten Vets now costs about 25% less than under the old codex, and also gets frags and kraks for free. Just pointing it out.


No, the new Guard codex is not broken. I really hope you weren't being serious there.

Just writing from a viewpoint of getting the message to people who have already written off the new book as powergaming cheese.

RichBlake
24-04-2009, 22:44
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered. Veterans are too cheap. Valkyries are the best skimmers in the game. Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy.


Ell oh Ell.

Hot-Shot lasguns suck unless you're playing Eldar, Sisters or Tau as the unit they are in comes with a massive price tag. Veterans cost a whopping 2 points extra each for +1 BS, Krak Grenades and the ability to have 3 special weapons (which you need to pay for anyway), sure that's fairly good but it's not brilliant. Valkyries are planes, there's a reason they are good, they also cost 100 points each, Vendettas I will admit seem too cheap. Guard Psykers are only good when you have 9 of them, in which case I wonder why 9 Psykers are stronger then 1...

Legionary
24-04-2009, 22:48
The new Guard codex certainly isn't overpowered. It's now competitive with Orks, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Eldar. It's better than Necron, Inquisition and Tau but what isn't?

There's a bit of an odd attitude amongst some Guard players that want Guard to remain underpowered, whether because they enjoy being able to pull off wins with an army regarded as a poor choice or because they feel that they're 'true' Guard players as opposed to people considering creating a Guard army under the new codex.

I do find it slightly irritating, since Guard are still by no means the army to beat. They're about as powerful as Eldar now, and still remain overshadowed by the big three armies.

Adapt to change and don't hamstring yourself out of some mistaken sense that you need to make the new Guard weaker. It's a balanced codex, not a cheesey one. I'm sure that once you've fought enough battles with self-sabotaged units then you'll see that you don't need to reduce their power to keep them competitive - you need to use the new Guard codex to keep them competitive.

Edit: realised it wasn't clear who I was addressing. The OP is right about fun, this post is addressed to those numerous people who feel as I've set out above.

Finn
24-04-2009, 23:03
It's actually 40% more expensive than basic troops, and they have access to some truly nasty weapons (and really, the BS upgrade pays for itself when you load up on heavy guns). A squad of ten Vets now costs about 25% less than under the old codex, and also gets frags and kraks for free. Just pointing it out.



Just writing from a viewpoint of getting the message to people who have already written off the new book as powergaming cheese.

Infantry coming with frags and kraks (for no point cost increase, I'd like to point out) is standard in the new codices. And vets were overcosted previously. Still are, IMO. The only way to use them effectively is going to be with 3 special weapons and suicide them into a target.

Loss of deep strike across the board is going to hurt guard mobility (and they need it), so I wouldn't expect them to be winning many more games than under the previous rules. Some more to be sure, but not an inordinate amount.

The statement that AP3 lasguns are overpowered is dumb as hell. :wtf: Overpowered implies a points cost to usefulness comparison, and they just flat out fail. 16 points for 2 shots at 12", or 1 at 18". I'd rather pay 15 points for 6 shots at 12" without the AP, or 3 at 24". Orders notwithstanding. If you're going to house rule that carapace should cost more (which no smart guard player is going to take anyway...at least not much), you should also house rule that stormtroopers cost about 12 points :p

Yarick Zan
24-04-2009, 23:05
You know I think we should just wait and see. So far all we have are a few rumblings. I am going to wait for the bigger picture. Besides if it is broken, something else will probably get smashed in the next codex for people to **** and moan about then quickly forget. Remember Lash of Submission?

RichBlake
24-04-2009, 23:08
Loss of deep strike across the board is going to hurt guard mobility (and they need it), so I wouldn't expect them to be winning many more games than under the previous rules. Some more to be sure, but not an inordinate amount.

I'm sure you mean "Don't expect people who played Imperial Guard Drop Troop lists to win many more games".

There was more then one way to play Guard you know...

Walls
24-04-2009, 23:10
How are hotshot guns overpowered again?

You mean because you have to spend 16 points to get even one?

Max Jet
24-04-2009, 23:17
You know catbarf I have always shared the same opinion as you, but please stop saying it.. the guard codex is not broken. It is clearly better, than the last incarnation, but the level of effectivness is just about right in this codex! The Valkyrie is not THE best Skimmer in game.. it serves its purpose.. the storm troopers are pricey for T3 4+ wound models and the guardsmen at 6 points a piece have always been too expensive.
O.k.... we can talk about the the deathstrike missile, but the level of effectivness is o.k! And nowhere can I see a good and cheap possibility to let a commissar join the conscript squad (moreover 75 points for a better "Without number rule?" Jesus..)
If the guard codex WERE overpowered I would agree with you 100%, the guard deserve it.. really.. people.. Guards and Orks have been running around so long with underpowered codicies.. please for the love of good.. you can complain all you want about eldar and marines.. but let the guard be! And the Orks to.. (this is not directed at you catbarf)
Just.. let it be, will you??
Now back to you catbarf.. I would agree to anything you say.. but really.. you will see, the guard army is not THAT hard to beat, even with our Tyranid codex =).

Binky
24-04-2009, 23:20
I think I must have the wrong mindset, I got my Guard Codex on Wednesday and wasn't hugely impressed, Rough Riders have been nerfed, Fast Attack is now overfilled with choices (especially as you can no longer take Sentinels in the HQ slot), tank\artillery squadrons would seem nice but the immobilised=destroyed thing seems to make them a bad choice (especially artillery), you can only create non-standard regiments by using veterans instead of platoons, which costs more and means you can't use heavy weapon units and the way vox-casters now work just doesn't make any sense.

Nice to have a lot of the FW stuff making it's way into the main Codex though.

Mr Kibbles
24-04-2009, 23:29
Can an intire platoon be mobilised in Chimeras?

Bunnahabhain
24-04-2009, 23:37
And vets were overcosted previously.


Eh??

Old codex veterans were great, and an absolute steal. +2pts for a point of BS, LD, deep strike, infiltraite and the ability to take 3 specal weapons?

I'll agree they look rather pricey now, especially with any of the 30pt upgrades...



I think I must have the wrong mindset, I got my Guard Codex on Wednesday and wasn't hugely impressed, Rough Riders have been nerfed,
Again, Eh? Rough riders have got marginally cheaper for full squads, marginally more expensive for minimal ones. They've got more weapons, can take special weapons and lances, and their lances still work just great. How have they been nerfed?


Fast Attack is now overfilled with choices (especially as you can no longer take Sentinels in the HQ slot), tank\artillery squadrons would seem nice but the immobilised=destroyed thing seems to make them a bad choice (especially artillery), you can only create non-standard regiments by using veterans instead of platoons, which costs more and means you can't use heavy weapon units and the way vox-casters now work just doesn't make any sense.

Nice to have a lot of the FW stuff making it's way into the main Codex though.

I agree with that lot though...

Raxmei
24-04-2009, 23:39
Can an intire platoon be mobilised in Chimeras?Just the infantry squads and command squads. It's possible to make a platoon that all has chimeras, but there are also some optional squads that can't take them.

Grindgodgrind
25-04-2009, 00:01
Hit the nail on the head, I agree entirely. For me, the game is secondary to the fluff, theme, and visual aspect of my army. And besides, it's not like you're going to be banned from the game if you alter the rules as you see fit.

I wholeheartedly agree with these sentiments.

xinsanityx
25-04-2009, 00:09
Throw out 9 hyrdas, basilisks, vendettas or hell hounds + as many infantry platoon squads as you can get and tell me its not too good. That's where the real danger of this codex is. Squads of cheap armour 12 tanks that put out an insane amount of fire power.

A squad of 3 hyrdras puts out more fire power than lootas for about the same price. Then you still have over 1000 points left for about 14-16 guard squads. Or you can take a bunch of basilisks for even more fire power, but you get fewer guards men. Either way you go it's disgustingly powerful.

Somerandomidiot
25-04-2009, 00:39
Throw out 9 hyrdas, basilisks, vendettas or hell hounds + as many infantry platoon squads as you can get and tell me its not too good. That's where the real danger of this codex is. Squads of cheap armour 12 tanks that put out an insane amount of fire power.

A squad of 3 hyrdras puts out more fire power than lootas for about the same price. Then you still have over 1000 points left for about 14-16 guard squads. Or you can take a bunch of basilisks for even more fire power, but you get fewer guards men. Either way you go it's disgustingly powerful.

Each Hydra will hit with 1.5 autocannons and 1.5 heavy bolters, so that's 4.5 hits of each per turn with 3 Hydras. 15 Lootas (same price) each get d3 shots, hitting on 5's. On average, Lootas get 2 shots per turn (1+2+3/3), so that's 10 hits. 4.5 S7 hits and 4.5 S5 hits vs 10 S7 hits... how is that more fire power?

Certainly not "disgustingly powerful" at the very least. Then again, what can I expect, considering how much math you put into that comment?

xinsanityx
25-04-2009, 01:19
Each Hydra will hit with 1.5 autocannons and 1.5 heavy bolters, so that's 4.5 hits of each per turn with 3 Hydras. 15 Lootas (same price) each get d3 shots, hitting on 5's. On average, Lootas get 2 shots per turn (1+2+3/3), so that's 10 hits. 4.5 S7 hits and 4.5 S5 hits vs 10 S7 hits... how is that more fire power?

Certainly not "disgustingly powerful" at the very least. Then again, what can I expect, considering how much math you put into that comment?

Each hydra has 2 twin linked auto cannons and each autocannon gets 2 shots. At least read the rules before you make yourself look stupid.

That's 12 autocannon shots. 75% of those shots will hit. That's 9 str 7 hits. 9 heavy bolter shots, 50% of those will hit. That's 4.5 str 5 hits. So they get 1 less str 7 hit, but make up for that by getting 4.5 str 5 hits. I'd definately call that more fire power. I'd even say that 3 armour 12 vehicles will actually be more resilient than the orks alot of the time. The orks will definately fair better against higher strength weapons, but against any weapon str 7 and under I'd rather have the hydras. There are far more weapons out there that will hurt the lootas than will hurt the hydras. Also, you only have to kill 5 lootas and they'll start taking ld tests. If you kill 8 they take a ld 7 test, which they'll fail 41 % of the time and be worthless.

Lord Cook
25-04-2009, 01:26
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered. Veterans are too cheap. Valkyries are the best skimmers in the game. Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy.

I disagree with every single one of these assertions. Only the Psyker to Sorceror comparison comes anywhere close.


While I agree with your other points, I think this is a strange argument. If they pay more points to get special abilities, then they're no longer cheap but instead have special abilities. They're not losing out.

They are when those special abilities are relatively marginal compared to the very considerable points costs.


Rough Riders have been nerfed

Rough riders are exactly the same as they were before, except now they cost 1 point less. The veteran sergeant is mandatory, but he's 2 points less, and highly desirable anyway.


Each Hydra will hit with 1.5 autocannons and 1.5 heavy bolters, so that's 4.5 hits of each per turn with 3 Hydras... 4.5 S7 hits

"4.5 autocannons" actually equals 9 hits, doesn't it? Silly mistakes like this are what happens when you use terms like "1.5 heavy bolters". It's one heavy bolter, with an average of 1.5 hits (equal chance of either 1 or 2).

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2009, 01:35
Even with the correct maths, his point still stands, xsantiyx,

9 S7hits and 4.5 S5 hits on average is not wildly different from the 10 S7 hits you can expect from lootas.

Or would you have preferred we kept the old version- 200pts for 1 hydra, with the same weapons and very similar special rules

AmBlam
25-04-2009, 01:35
So I don't care if it's cheesy, or broken, or spammable. In the end, as long as everyone has a fun game, everybody wins. Focus on what matters most.

I think the vast majority of WH players need the codex to be non-cheesy, non- broken and non-spammable to have fun and I don't think it's their fault.

Although its ok for you.

101st Vostroyan
25-04-2009, 01:40
I love the new codex. It has tons of options and so many possibilities. I think this will be a trend with codexes for 5th ed...they will all get more"powerful" to balance it out again. I dont think of it being overpowered so much, but because it is geared for 5th ed, the 4th ed armies will be at a disadvantage.

xinsanityx
25-04-2009, 01:41
Even with the correct maths, his point still stands, xsantiyx,

9 S7hits and 4.5 S5 hits on average is not wildly different from the 10 S7 hits you can expect from lootas.

Or would you have preferred we kept the old version- 200pts for 1 hydra, with the same weapons and very similar special rules

It is wildly different. That's like saying 3 twin linked lascannons aren't wildly different from 3 non twin linked lascannons because the twin linked lascannons will only get on average .66 more hits than the non twin linked lascannons. So why not make twin linked lascannons the same price as non twin linked lascannons? They aren't wildly different in your view.

It's more fire power for the same amount of points. It's also more resilient for the the same amount of points. It's also faster for the same amount of points. The orks can go 6 inches + d6 inches in the shooting phase. The tanks can always go 12. The hydras can also move 6 inches and still fire half of their autocannons for the same amount of points. If the Lootas move they can't fire anything. The lootas can also be locked in combat and stopped from shooting their guns. The hydras can not be locked in combat.

So the hydras are better in every way than one of the most broken units in the game right now. And by the way, you can also have 140+ guardsmen in addition to those 9 tanks.

I think you can also add Griffon mortars to the list of tanks that will absolutely rock the house.

Gutlord Grom
25-04-2009, 01:48
Are Marine players allowed to dislike Al' Rahem and the flanking Chimera assault platoon?

Lord Cook
25-04-2009, 01:57
They need permission to dislike something?

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2009, 01:58
Show me a stunned or shaken Loota...
Show me a Hydra fighting in Close combat.
Show me a Hydra making any movement in the shooting or assult phases.
Show me a Hydra deployed on the thrird story of a ruin for better LOS.
Show me a squadron of Hydras with anything more than a highly direction cover save

Show me how the Hydras are better in every way then...

Gutlord Grom
25-04-2009, 02:00
They need permission to dislike something?

I'm not sure. Marine players apparently are destroying the game every new edition, so I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to dislike things in other armies.

xinsanityx
25-04-2009, 02:09
Show me a stunned or shaken Loota...
Show me a Hydra fighting in Close combat.
Show me a Hydra making any movement in the shooting or assult phases.
Show me a Hydra deployed on the thrird story of a ruin for better LOS.
Show me a squadron of Hydras with anything more than a highly direction cover save

Show me how the Hydras are better in every way then...

Show me a hydra running away
Show me a hydra that can't shoot next turn because it's in combat
Show me a Loota making any movement in the shooting or assault phases (really you think lootas will be moving any more often than hydras? Any time a loota would move a hydra would, and Hydras can move faster than lootas)
Show me a loota squad completely blocking LOS to a scoring troop unit saving them from getting shot to pieces.
Show me a Loota squad tank shocking a squad off an objective
Show me a loota that is completely immune to all fire str 5 or lower
Tell me how stunning or shaking a hydra is better than killing 5 lootas to make their squad take a test? The hydra is still alive those 5 lootas aren't and the squad might run.
Show me a loota squad moving 6 inches and still firing half their deffguns.

Raxmei
25-04-2009, 02:11
They need permission to dislike something?Yes! IG players are forbidden from disliking Korsarro Khan's outflanking army.

decker_cky
25-04-2009, 03:08
It's an open topped AV12 direct fire weapon, and it competes with taking russes, basilisks, manticores and the like. Hydras are very good, but they're in a competitive slot and fill a role that can be covered by many different choices.

Lootas are a little less effective, but they're filling a role that really isn't covered elsewhere in their codex. And their effects aren't too far off. An extra expected S7 hit will be more effective against the targets you'll be going after (most likely AV11-12 vehicles) than 4.5 S5 hits. The advantage against skimmers is huge, I have no problem admitting, but the two units utilities in the context of their armies isn't too far off at all IMO. Hence why you can't directly compare similar units in completely different armies. The context is all different.

starlight
25-04-2009, 03:16
*sigh*

Seriously?

It's the book we're going to use for the next 5-10 years, so quit complaining and get on with something useful... :eyebrows:

Shangrila
25-04-2009, 03:29
From a fluff perspective, it seems very odd for a lasgun (albeit an overcharged one) to liquify SM armor.



Seriously? Have you read a IG novel? hellguns drop Necrons like nobodies business. And for 16 points its not worth it when i can take a veteran squad with 3 meltas and both the grenadiers and demolitions doctrines.(which i woudnt do anyway.)


Throw out 9 hyrdas, basilisks, vendettas or hell hounds + as many infantry platoon squads as you can get and tell me its not too good. That's where the real danger of this codex is. Squads of cheap armour 12 tanks that put out an insane amount of fire power.

A squad of 3 hyrdras puts out more fire power than lootas for about the same price. Then you still have over 1000 points left for about 14-16 guard squads. Or you can take a bunch of basilisks for even more fire power, but you get fewer guardsmen. Either way you go it's disgustingly powerful.

Right because the bassies minimum 36 inch raise is broken.
and 9 of any of those vehicles is over 1k worth of points and none of them have anything better then Av12. compaired to 3 monoliths(650ish) or 5 land raiders(1250)?

Yup my army of Straight "3 statline" guardmen are disgustingly powerful. I think 2 or 3 of my models have an I value greater then 3.

Devil Tree
25-04-2009, 03:45
I think some people are getting a little too worked up about this. Yes the new IG Codex has some nice stuff in it but itís hardly what you would call broken. While they are have some stuff thatís more powerful they only got it because they despiritly needed a boost.

As far as the Lootas vs. Hydra debate goes, excuse me if I donít find it scandalous. Itís hardly a stretch, that a shooty army with nearly no CC potential can (gasp!:eek:) outshoot a CC army that is supposed to be terrible at shooting. :wtf:

xinsanityx
25-04-2009, 04:10
Right because the bassies minimum 36 inch raise is broken.


Once again another person that does not know the rules. The bassies minimum range is used only when you fire indirectly. So you either did not know the rule yet still posted it, or you purposely left out a crucial part of it. You're either dishonest or ignorant of the rules.

I'm done arguing this. This is the second time today I've seen someone post a rule incorrectly. I can't believe people actually come on here and embarass themselves by posting false facts. Oppinion is one thing, but mistating a rule to enhance your position, or not fully knowing the rule but posting it anyway is either incredibly stupid, or incredibly manipulative and deceitful depending on which one applies to you.

IMO of course. ;)

Captain_Sicarius
25-04-2009, 04:22
My terminators laugh at the new storm trooper hellguns. ;)

Johnnyfrej
25-04-2009, 04:25
Show me a hydra running away
Show me a hydra that can't shoot next turn because it's in combat
Show me a Loota making any movement in the shooting or assault phases (really you think lootas will be moving any more often than hydras? Any time a loota would move a hydra would, and Hydras can move faster than lootas)
Show me a loota squad completely blocking LOS to a scoring troop unit saving them from getting shot to pieces.
Show me a Loota squad tank shocking a squad off an objective
Show me a loota that is completely immune to all fire str 5 or lower
Tell me how stunning or shaking a hydra is better than killing 5 lootas to make their squad take a test? The hydra is still alive those 5 lootas aren't and the squad might run.
Show me a loota squad moving 6 inches and still firing half their deffguns.
Show me Lootaz that take up a HS choice.
Show me Hydras that take up an Elite choice.
Now show me how you can compare them.

Mosedeke
25-04-2009, 04:33
I personally love the new psykers, and love watching my opponents' reactions.
"What's that, a Guard CC squad? Ha!" (My psykers are all modeled with excessive amounts of chainswords and Holy Hand Grenades)
"Battle Psykers. They mess with leadership and can throw down a blast. The blast-"
"Just tell me when it happens."

Then about an hour later...
"You just put a strength 9 AP 1 large blast on my Terminators? From WHAT?!"
and
"Pedro's leadership goes down by two? Ok, sure. Wait, it IS a two? WHAT?!"

Those were of course the two turns before every single Whirlwind, Rhino, and Tac Squad on the board made a beeline for my poor little 9 psykers.

Nicha11
25-04-2009, 04:43
Ahh a midly provocative thread topic, and the guards fans of Warseer descend like a horde of locusts.

MajorWesJanson
25-04-2009, 04:50
Ahh a midly provocative thread topic, and the guards fans of Warseer descend like a horde of locusts.

Hey, it's a tactic that works on the tabletop too. Put out a unit or topic that seems like a big threat or provocation, and watch it draw fire letting the rest of the army/forum move on their objectives.

Warforger
25-04-2009, 05:42
Yup. Guard players tend to troll marine players about how OP there armies are.

You can compare the new Guard codex release to the New SM codex release, there was alot of whining of "SM are OP'd even more now!" "Whats the point of playing DA or BA now?". The following weeks after release were pitiful, in Grand Tournaments they were scoring in the low, Vanguard were tossed aside reserved for fun reasons, the Chapter Master entry was pointless when compared to the Captain entry, alot of characters were found useless (Shrike, Pedro, Lysander, Tigirius and Calgar).

You see similar problems in the new Guard codex, sure LR's sound pretty boss now, but the tanks cost at minimum the equivalent of a full 10 SM squad, alot of the new variants of the hell hound/ chimera have weak armor like the chassis, Storm Trooper's are near not worth taking, if at all, Valkryies are expensive and have a huge ass stand, suffering from LoS problems.

Now we have those Command Squads which are beautiful.

Now Scoring Heavy Weapon Teams- really the only thing you can start to complain about.

holmcross
25-04-2009, 05:46
I like how the OP is complaining behind a smoke screen of nonchalance. If you're going to spam a "X IS BROKEN" thread, you should at least own up to it. It's like walking up to someone and saying:

"You're an ugly and dishonest hunk of refuse, but it doesn't bother me."

Based on what I've seen of the new codex, anyone complaining about the IG dex is suffering from a serious case of N.A.S. The only thing that stands out as being exceptionally powerful are the guys who modify reserve rolls. But that topic as already been discussed at length.

Somerandomidiot
25-04-2009, 06:11
Eh, the autocannon mistake was a typo on my part. :( In any case, I think my point still stands. I'd argue a unit of T4 guys who can easily claim 4+ cover saves without giving them to their targets is superior to a squadron of 3 open topped AR12 tanks, who are either getting no cover, or getting it and granting it to their targets. But that's neither here nor there- they're pretty close to equivalent in my opinion.

From everything I've seen (and the games I've played), the guard codex seems really balanced. I suppose some people will complain no matter what though.

Solar_Eclipse
25-04-2009, 06:39
Which Guard Codex are you talking about?

I dont mind my balanced Guard codex at all, though.

EDIT: Minimum range comes into play when you are firing indirectly, but any vehicle may choose to fire directly and eschew the minimum range, its in the rulebook.

Durath
25-04-2009, 06:47
I play 40k more for the thematic feel these days than as a "serious" competative tournament style game. I'll still show up for tournaments from time to time, but never with the intent to win one. So what catbarf says I agree with but for probably different reasons.

Now... that being said... I'm going to play devil's advocate with a hypothetical (but very probable) story from the future.

June 9th, 2009... two teenage kids, Joseph and Percy, walk into a hobby store. They heard about Warhammer 40k from another kid at school. They have been friends since diapers, are quite intelligent for their age, think very much alike, and have similar skills in critical thinking. They have grown bored with stalemate after stalemate in chess and decide it might be time to try out another game to play. The other kid's stories piqued their interest, so they saved up some chore money, and came to the store to check it out.

After reading some of the fiction, they were floored by the grandness of the 40k mythos in no time. They decided mutually to get into the hobby. Both of them buy a rulebook and rush to their respective homes. Within hours they have warped into the grim future of mankind.

After a bit of time passes (perhaps weeks), they finish reading the bulk of the rulebook including the rules and fictional sections. They agree that they must start playing this game. Each of them has an idea of how the game is played, but has not seen one in action. What they do remember more clearly is the background stories. After comparing observations, they go back to the hobby store to pick the first models to buy.

They ask the store owner what is a good army to play. He resists the urge to pawn off his most over-stocked items, and simply suggest that they spend some time reading over the store copies of the Codexes. He gives them access to the entire library.

With limited time, they pick up a number of codexes that they recall reading about from the main rulebook fluff. They read over the rules and army lists in them. Still very green, they have no idea about things like swarm armies, or MC spam, Special Characters, massed AP3 fire, or unit counts in KP scenarios. All they can really focus on is the fluff. With time running out, each one finds a codex that "appeals" to them.

Percy loved stories of medieval knights as a young child. He always had interest in chivalrous defenders. It was a natural pick for him to choose Grey Knights and bought a Daemonhunters codex.

Joseph's dad was in the Royal Navy, and was always an impressive figure in his life. He thought about the Space Marines, but decided finally to go with the Imperial Guard (that's where the Imperial Navy was found in the game), and bought the IG Codex (the one that is coming out).

They began saving and buying components to their fledgling collections. In time, they had assembled modest 1500 point armies. Their first games they played each other as the collections grew.

Initially, the battle outcomes were fairly pitched. Percy would win some, Joseph would win some. In time however, Joseph began to clearly pull ahead in wins. Percy was getting a little frustrated, so he suggested they start going to the store and play other people. Joseph agreed and they started going every Saturday.

Within a few months, Joseph got a reputation as being a decent player. He lost a number of games, but won his fair share. Percy however, was experiencing the reverse. His army became a bit of a joke, some of the other kids called them the Fail Knights. He would win a game here and there, but lost many more than he won. By now he very frustrated.

One day while they were at the store, Percy was on his way to receiving another humiliating defeat at the hands of an Eldar player, when a non-regular visitor comes into the store from another city. The non-reg vistor parouses the selection, picks up some things to buy, and walks by the table where the Grey Knights are down to a Land Raider and a squad of Terminators. Sitting on the GK dead pile were a few squads of Grey Knights, and a couple characters... sitting on the Eldar dead pile were some guardians and banshees.

Percy finally had enough and exclaimed "My Grey Knights never win! Why do I lose so much?!". Seeing the young lad's distress, the non-reg vistor made an off hand comment, "Well, Grey Knights are a tough army to learn to play on."

Percy inquired why, and without going into a tremdous amount of detail, the vistor, which happened to be a GT winner, began to give some tips about 40k to Percy, explaining in detail the the defiency in having 25 point troops...

Well... we'll stop the story before jumping to conclusions. Percy is just as smart and tactically capable as Joseph and we all know the disparity in W/L records is a function of codex disbalance.

Joseph is generally satisfied with the game, and has no reason to do anything but add to his collection.

Percy is confronted with four choices. He can continue using the models he spent his hard earned money on, and keep losing. Or, he can take the vistor's advice, adjust his army list, buy more models, and hope for a better outcome. Or, he can Ebay his stuff, and pick up another army to play. Or he can Ebay, or simply trash his models and find another game to play.

Percy could choose any one of these options could happen. This is, after all, a work of fiction... right?

No, not really. Stuff like this happens a lot. I only used the Grey Knights as an example, but I've seen the same thing happen to just about every race that is not updated, or falls behind in terms of outmatched rules.

And unfortunately, many people choose to ditch 40k because of these balance issues, despite the great fluff. It is what keeps this game from being truely great.

Now, you can say "Well, he was just playing to win then, and not have fun". Poppycock! No one in their right mind plays a game TO CONSISTENTLY LOSE. There might be some hardcore fanboys that do, but the vast majority of us play to win. And we expect an equal shot at winning. Having "flavor of the month" codexes doesn't allow for that.

So, while we can "take the high road", and pretend there isn't a problem with the fact that GW refuses to give proper backwards compatibility updates for existing codexes, and keeps setting the bar higher with each new codex, we're doing more harm to the hobby than good. We should be honest and not "write off" the inconsistencies with new codexes in the name of "fun". Everyone I know's idea of fun is not losing to the latest greatest codex.

Addendum: Overall, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being garbage on the table, and 10 being overpowered, I'd rate the new IG book around an 8.5. It has some O/P units. Overall, its not an automatic win everytime kind of list. But there is little hope against them for some armies like the Necrons or Grey Knights, and will make players with armies like the Tyranids either be really lucky, or much more skilled with to win.

decker_cky
25-04-2009, 07:04
Actually i have seen the new dex, its minimum 36 inches on an earthshaker period, its even in the summary posted by scryer in the darkness. Nice try though.

It's a rule in the basic rules. Vehicles firing ordinance barrage can ignore the minimum range if they're firing direct. Certain tanks explicitly disallow firing direct so really have a minimum range, but the basilisk isn't one of those.

Pink Horror
25-04-2009, 07:55
Actually i have seen the new dex, its minimum 36 inches on an earthshaker period, its even in the summary posted by scryer in the darkness. Nice try though.

If you're going to correct someone, read the rules first. Look up Ordnance Barrage weapons in the rulebook.

And there is no period: the minimum range is followed by a double accent and a hyphen. :rolleyes:

Raxmei
25-04-2009, 08:02
I can just imagine the arguments when the book actually gets released. I bet the words "codex overrides rulebook" are going to come up too. Explaining to people exactly why they're wrong will of course only get harder after they've confidently walked into the minimum range and getting proven wrong would affect the outcome of the game.

beerdrinker
25-04-2009, 08:09
Cant we all just get along?

Raxmei
25-04-2009, 08:11
Cant we all just get along?In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

Shangrila
25-04-2009, 08:14
It's a rule in the basic rules. Vehicles firing ordinance barrage can ignore the minimum range if they're firing direct. Certain tanks explicitly disallow firing direct so really have a minimum range, but the basilisk isn't one of those.

Indeed, i read the wrong page.(32 not 58)


9 basilisks in one list are still far from being broken.

Binky
25-04-2009, 08:14
Rough riders are exactly the same as they were before, except now they cost 1 point less. The veteran sergeant is mandatory, but he's 2 points less, and highly desirable anyway.


Oops, you're right, I thought that their lances no longer ignored armour saves, but now realise that's covered by the power weapon rule!

Damien 1427
25-04-2009, 09:59
Cant we all just get along?
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

In the Grim Darkness of the 40k General Discussion Forum, there is only bitching.

Awilla the Hun
25-04-2009, 10:09
The first of many whines.

I'll start digging my trenches and getting my counter argument launcher ready.

First shot ("Sergeant! Range four hundred metres, if you please!".) No, Stormtroopers are not overpowered. They are very expensive. However, I think I'll take a unit or two; I always had wanted some sort of Arbites element in my Imperial Guard, but last time round the Stormtroopers weren't worth it.

Second shot ("Reload!") I have been beaten by Grey Knights, and have beaten Grey Knights. They may be underpowered in tournaments, but not in the casual games I do.

Third shot ("Take aim!") Valkyries have no shields, and they are extremely visible on their tall bases. Prepare to recieve a lot of firepower from the enemy guns.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
25-04-2009, 14:33
Veterans lose the ability to infiltrate and drop in cost by 10 points while becoming troops. I hardly see this as a reason to scream OMG they are broken! If you give them carapace they cost exactly the same as using storm troopers as Grenadiers in the old codex, without hellguns or targeters. I don't ever remember people saying they were broken, most complained they were not good. They do have the advantage of taking 1 extra special weapon and a heavy weapon though, but you have to pay for them.

The new storm troopers will only be as good as the person using them and the opponent lets them be. They are almost guaranteed to get at least 1 round of fire off where they want to. They will do some damage depending on whether the unit is in or out of cover. Then you are just firing back at a unit T3 4+ sv guardsmen with an 8 ld. For the amount that they cost, any special weapons they take should probably be free. You should thank any opponent that takes 3 units of Stormtroopers, you could be taking an awlful lot more fire from regular guardsmen then the stormtroopers.

Even with the nice weapons, missles and troop carrying capacity, at the end of the day a Valkyrie is still armour 12 and will be shot down with ease after a turn or two. The fact that you can't hide a valkyrie either because of the base only makes this easier.

I played a game with the new guard codex and it is not an auto win. You can definitely make a mobile element while maintaining a firebase easier, but this was sorely needed with all the objective missions in 5th Ed. In the take and control mission (the 2 base objective one), I nearly always got a draw or lost it with the old codex.

I was able to pull off a 1 - 0 victory against a chaos player. I was wiped off of my objective, but I wiped him off of his objective. He didn't have any troops left in his assault force though.

Mobile element: 2 Grenadier vet squads in chimeras and hellhound with basilisk fire support

Firebase: HQ counter assault, a Platoon, 2 leman russ battle tanks

If someone called that cheese or overpowering I would laugh at them.

Grand Master Raziel
25-04-2009, 14:49
Now Scoring Heavy Weapon Teams- really the only thing you can start to complain about.

Even so, I wouldn't rely on them as objective-sitters. You get three T3 2W models on enormous bases. I think the real utility there is that if you decide to form your platoons into single large units, the HWT will give the almalgamated unit some serious long-range firepower.



Now... that being said... I'm going to play devil's advocate with a hypothetical (but very probable) story from the future.(snipped)

The scenario, though not entirely improbable, does seem to me to be one in which a lot more thought was applied than I'd guess is typical of new wargamers. That said, if both players are as careful and thoughtful as you make them out to be, then in the long run, Percy is going to become the more skilled and wily player. At the very least, I know that I've learned more from the games I've lost than the games I've won. Unless Percy is consistently playing against cheesemongering gits with unlimited budgets, his average should even out. Then, when he moves on to another army (which is almost inevitable, because we all do), he'll be the one to look out for. I'm not saying that there's not imbalance between the dexes in the system, but I am saying that there's not so much imbalance that better players with weaker armies will consistently lose to poor players with strong armies. Only when player skill is about equal will army imbalance be the scale-tipping factor.

As for my thoughts on the new Codex: Imperial Guard...I had a chance to read it last week. I'll be honest, I liked it. There was a lot of neat stuff in there - particularly with the Orders system and the Platoon structure. Some of my concerns proved to be unfounded. Yes, there are HW and SW Teams attached to Platoons. However, I was envisioning HW/SW Teams that were 10-strong and had sergeant options, which would have been a lot more versatile and resilient. The real squads for the IG's mobile Troops seem to be the Veteran Squads, but they didn't ding my cheese-sense for some reason (probably because they're still T3 models with 5+ saves, plus maybe because you still only get 10 of them as one Troops slot). Stormtroopers didn't draw any outrage, either. If Thousand Sons can have AP3 bolters and 4++ saves, and Sternguards can have bolters with a variety of magic bullets (including AP3 shells), then I don't see why Stormies can't have AP3 lasguns. Still S3, after all, which won't even scratch an AV10 vehicle, and if you're worried about the hotshot lasguns, assault them with something.

If I had to guess, I think the thing that has a lot of players hyperventilating is the squadroning of tanks. I'm actually kind of surprised it doesn't have me all worked up, actually. The Armored Company list drew a lot of strong negative reactions, which are carrying over to the new IG dex. I think people are envisioning getting swamped by Russes, as treadheads produce lists with a pair of minimal Veteran Squads as their Troops choices and making the rest of their lists comprise of ZOMG TANKS! Yes, if you as the opponent to this list wipe out the little Vet Squads, then your IG opponent can't win objective-based missions by claiming the objectives. However, if he wipes you out, he still wins, and if he wipes out your scoring units, you can't win either, and being able to dish out 9 pie plates sure seems like it lends itself to butchering the other guy. That said, vehicle squadroning does come with some inherent balancing factors, not the least of which is the immobilized=destroyed factor (those rules were not written with ground vehicles in mind, IMO, but what the heck, I'll take it). Plus, Russes got more expensive, which was not inappropriate, even if they did get some things back for it (Lumbering Behemoth+AV13 sides on all variants). I think what it boils down to, though, is that the Infantry Platoons seem so cool that most players will want them to be a healthy chunk of their army lists, so I'm not forseeing ZOMG TANKS! lists becoming the rule for IG armies.


That said, I've still got my nose bent just a little bit out of joint by the Vendetta, because it basically does everything a SM Predator Annihilator does, but better, cheaper, and it doesn't take up a Heavy Support slot, thus not impacting upon the number of Russes/Bassies/etc that can be taken. Compared to the tri-las Pred, the Vendetta has equal firepower (run the math), roughly equivalent armor (worse front, better sides), is a Fast Skimmer with all that implies vs being a normal-speed ground vehicle, can carry troops, and is 30pts less than the Pred! I'm not really buying into the idea that it being a large model with a highly elevated flying base being much of a balancing factor, either. You generally can't hide the Pred if you want it to do what it's supposed to do, either. Plus, an IG army is likely to have all sorts of dangerous vehicles for an opponent's anti-armor capability to focus on, thus the Vendetta is protected by saturation of potential targets (or something else is by the Vendetta), whereas in a SM army, there's a very good possibility that the Predator will be the hardest tank the player has on the table. We'll see what happens when things get put into practice, but looking at the Vendetta on paper has me annoyed. I want my Preds to be cheaper, and I want to be able to squadron them. :mad:

blackroyal
25-04-2009, 15:09
Even so, I wouldn't rely on them as objective-sitters. You get three T3 2W models on enormous bases. I think the real utility there is that if you decide to form your platoons into single large units, the HWT will give the almalgamated unit some serious long-range firepower.



Heavy weapon Squads work wonders until you go up against a Tyranid player with lots of S6+ blast templates. Then you get to watch your army evaporate any time you fail a 4+ cover save.

RichBlake
25-04-2009, 15:48
Show me a hydra ...

You totally missed the point, the point was that both have upsides and downsides, not that Hydras were better or worse. Your post just seemed to prove the point even more.



You can compare the new Guard codex release to the New SM codex release, there was alot of whining of "SM are OP'd even more now!" "Whats the point of playing DA or BA now?". The following weeks after release were pitiful, in Grand Tournaments they were scoring in the low, Vanguard were tossed aside reserved for fun reasons, the Chapter Master entry was pointless when compared to the Captain entry, alot of characters were found useless (Shrike, Pedro, Lysander, Tigirius and Calgar).


I hardly call their scoring in Grand Tournaments "low". Spaces Marines were present in the top ten in most the result scores I have seen multiple times. Generally Orks take up the most slots at the top, but Marines, Daemons, Eldar also take a fir chunk of the top 10/20.

While Vanguard are rarely used Chapter Masters aren't "pointless" and Shrike, Pedro and Lysander all have their uses and are far from useless. Calgar isn't used because he costs so much, the actual character itself is very useful.


You see similar problems in the new Guard codex, sure LR's sound pretty boss now, but the tanks cost at minimum the equivalent of a full 10 SM squad, alot of the new variants of the hell hound/ chimera have weak armor like the chassis, Storm Trooper's are near not worth taking, if at all, Valkryies are expensive and have a huge ass stand, suffering from LoS problems.

Leman Russes are still the best tank in the game by miles and I'd rather have a Leman Russ over 10 Tactical Marines any day. Hellhounds have AV 12/12/10 so they are protected from everything barring S6+ so you're looking at people having to dedicate proper anti-tank weapons at them in order to do damage (unless behind them or in assault with them, in the latter case though since they probably moved 12 you're hitting on 6s). Stormtroopers ARE worth taking, but you actually need to have a plan for them, you cannot just slot them in and say "yeah lets wing it" you need some sort of purpose for them. Valkyries expensive? They are like the best transport in the game and only cost 100 points...



Now Scoring Heavy Weapon Teams- really the only thing you can start to complain about.

Oh no, not those heavy weapon teams that can be killed by one turn of shooting by a single multilaser? Brilliant.


I play 40k more for the thematic feel these days than as a "serious" competative tournament style game. I'll still show up for tournaments from time to time, but never with the intent to win one. So what catbarf says I agree with but for probably different reasons.


As a player who likes to stick to the fluff as much as possible while also trying to win let me say it doesn't have to be a "serious" game.


Now... that being said... I'm going to play devil's advocate with a hypothetical (but very probable) story from the future.

Jesus christ that was a long winded way to get your point across. It was also a massive bunch of claptrap.

I own IG, Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters. Until the new codex the sliding scale would go DH being the "worst" IG being "OK" and WH being "Good". However I find I have and probably will still win with Daemonhunters (including Grey Knights) against both those armies. Dark Eldar are considered a "bad" army and so are Necrons yet both of them with the hands of the right player can table other armies.

As if to further the point recently me and a mate came up with a 2000 point Inquisition list that uses DH with a helping of WH. The list has beaten new 5th Ed Marines, Black Templars and 5th Ed Imperial Guard. If that story was accurate the GT player would have told Percy to suck it up and get good at the game, even with DH you shouldn't be losing all the time, especially not in a GW store which usually harbours some abysmal players.



Addendum: Overall, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being garbage on the table, and 10 being overpowered, I'd rate the new IG book around an 8.5. It has some O/P units. Overall, its not an automatic win everytime kind of list. But there is little hope against them for some armies like the Necrons or Grey Knights, and will make players with armies like the Tyranids either be really lucky, or much more skilled with to win.

Again it's possible to trounce opponents with both of those lists, I've done and I believe you could do it to with enough practice.


It's a rule in the basic rules. Vehicles firing ordinance barrage can ignore the minimum range if they're firing direct. Certain tanks explicitly disallow firing direct so really have a minimum range, but the basilisk isn't one of those.

Correct, I'm sick of people saying "LOL Basilisk has minimum range that you cant ignore!"

Plastic Parody
25-04-2009, 16:02
I'll house rule to pay extra. I doubt anyone would mind that.


I would. Same as you would mind some one else changing your dex.

Its easy to say 'Im reasonable' when your the one wanting to change OTHER peoples rules/army lists.

Each codex has its own power builds and GW has proven rather inept at spotting them. Im sure there will be optimal Guard lists too, but the examples you give of broken are way off. Storm troopers? You wont see them a lot. Psyker, you wont see him a lot either. Valks have a lot stacking against them too, such as never being able to hide. Its tanks you have to worry about, lots and lots of tanks, with lots of normal infantry.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
25-04-2009, 16:10
Heavy weapon Squads work wonders until you go up against a Tyranid player with lots of S6+ blast templates. Then you get to watch your army evaporate any time you fail a 4+ cover save.

Lictors would eat those heavy weapon squads.


Also, someone mention putting the HW teams into the giant 1 squad platoon. That can only happen if they are in the squads. If you take a Heavy weapons team of 3 HWs, it cannot join the uber giant squad. (ie only the 10 man squads + platoon command squad can join together).


One list that I think would be fun to try to run would be using Col. Straken with a couple 55 man giant platoons and 50 man conscript platoons. IF you can keep parts of them within 12", they gain counter attack and furious charge. That is alot of S4, I4 attacks on a charge. You'd have to throw about 3 to 5 meltaguns into the giant platoons though to have some anti tank / monstrous creature ability. The army would have no range, but you could probably have about 210 guardsmen in 1500 points charging forward with a priest in each unit letting the squads reroll to hit. Should all 4 get the charge while not taking any casualties (highly unlikely), that's about 430 S4 I4 reroll to hit attacks. That would be about 320 hits and 160 wounds against T4.

That is an extreme list though and the likely hood of all 4 charging is not good. I don't think I would even call that broken because all CC armies would be able to get the charge on them and have some shooting to widdle them down as well.

MrMojoZ
25-04-2009, 16:14
Now we all can see that you can type, but I seriously doubt your ability to read....


No, my message is clear to anyone who agrees with anything in his first sentence.

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2009, 16:14
Correct, I'm sick of people saying "LOL Basilisk has minimum range that you cant ignore!"

Well, you can't sensibly ignore it.

If you do choose to ignore them, then you're moving into direct LOS, which is a very brave decision for an open topped, AV12/10/10 vehicle, that one weapon destroyed result will cripple.
It is an option , but not one to be taken lightly.

EDIT LOrd gen bales...

I though it was only the basic infantry squads who could be combined, and not the command squad

Shangrila
25-04-2009, 16:32
Well, you can't sensibly ignore it

I though it was only the basic infantry squads who could be combined, and not the command squad

This is true no squads can combine other then the basic line infantry squads.

RichBlake
25-04-2009, 16:40
Well, you can't sensibly ignore it.

If you do choose to ignore them, then you're moving into direct LOS, which is a very brave decision for an open topped, AV12/10/10 vehicle, that one weapon destroyed result will cripple.
It is an option , but not one to be taken lightly.


By "ignore" i mean as in people were saying "If something is within 36" you cannot fire notg even directly". I don't simply mean ignoring it as in "Yeah i'll fire Indirect and ignore the minimum range" as that would be breaking the rules :p

shin'keiro
25-04-2009, 16:49
I don't mind the broken new Guard codex

Whats broken about it?? :wtf: This is still guard we're talking about - lol

catbarf
25-04-2009, 16:56
I would. Same as you would mind some one else changing your dex.

Its easy to say 'Im reasonable' when your the one wanting to change OTHER peoples rules/army lists.

For clarification, you'd have a problem with me deciding to pay extra for things in my own army?


Whats broken about it?? :wtf: This is still guard we're talking about - lol

Well, I have seen some degree of whinging on the forums, and I suppose I may have fallen prey to hype. I didn't have much of a chance to look closely at the book, but I'm starting to see things I'd missed before that balance it all out. I'll admit that I did miss the higher cost of Storm Troopers (They're actually elite now), as well as the alterations to the special abilities of Veterans. It is somewhat reassuring to see that GW is sticking to balance instead of SELL IT SELL IT NOW.

It'll be interesting to see what becomes the new 'default build'.

Anyway, the point of the thread was less about rules and more about fun. You can take the same argument and apply it to any of the new codices.

vladsimpaler
25-04-2009, 17:16
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think that Stormtroopers are overpowered then watch out for those guardsmen! :rolleyes:

I've never seen someone be so, well, wrong. Are you going to call Chaos Spawn overpowered next?



Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy.

I think I said this before, but:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, you missed April Fool's day by 24 days. Better luck next year.:rolleyes:

Killgore
25-04-2009, 17:28
Anyway, the point of the thread was less about rules and more about fun. You can take the same argument and apply it to any of the new codices.



This new guard codex looks more fun then most of the other 40k codexs, theres so many cool options that are just begging to be used

(Chenkov and respawning conscripts + added mad priest/ ironhand stracken with furious charge aura fun)


personaly i dont give a flying hoot about the cost of stormtroopers/ veterans, ill include them if i feel like it... not because of how good/ bad they are

BigBossOgryn
25-04-2009, 17:37
GW's core games aren't designed for tournament play anyway, they're meant to be a lose framework upon which you build your hobby and your games... so you've got a cool approach IMHO.

Give this man a medal for speaking sense! I could not agree with this statement more.

As for people whining about power creep and the such: you do this every new army book and codex until it's your army of choices turn, seriously, it's depressing to read. Instead of celebrating a new army book or codex and talking about the improvements and cool new stuff, as well as what they bring to their respective games, it's the opposite. For every thread that takes a neutral/positive stance, there are half a dozen that bemoan it as the worst thing that happened to the hobby since the last army to get redone.

Anyone who has seen the film; Dogma, will agree that what Chris Rock's character said about religion applies to this hobby for too many people.

Plastic Parody
25-04-2009, 17:45
For clarification, you'd have a problem with me deciding to pay extra for things in my own army?


All the dexes have certain units that could be classed as overpowered or are simply better against your army than someone elses. Given that these OTT units can occur on both sides does it not balance out? In other words why bother?

Gazak Blacktoof
25-04-2009, 18:06
All the dexes have certain units that could be classed as overpowered or are simply better against your army than someone elses. Given that these OTT units can occur on both sides does it not balance out? In other words why bother?

To encourage a variety of different builds. At least that's the reason why our group has been making the crappy units better, this is just approaching it from a different direction.

Bunnahabhain
25-04-2009, 18:11
All the dexes have certain units that could be classed as overpowered or are simply better against your army than someone elses. Given that these OTT units can occur on both sides does it not balance out? In other words why bother?

It really depends on where those broken units are in your FOC, and what they work against. For example...

Ork boys mobs- works vs everything, and are scoring.

Triple lascannon vakyries- wonderful vs armour and MCs, utterly useless vs hordes.

See the diffrence?

N1AK
25-04-2009, 19:09
No, the new Guard codex is not broken. I really hope you weren't being serious there. Stormtroopers and Veterans are probably the two worst units in the book. Paying 16 points for a T3, W1, 4+ save unit with a S3 gun is never going to be worth it. Ever. Veterans are, IIRC, more than 50% more expensive than basic Guardsmen, in exchange for which they get +1 BS, which is a slight improvement, and defensive grenades, which is a slight drawback (yes, really). Vendettas are certainly scary, but they're so big that you literally can't spam them because of table size, and they can be shot down easily, since they can't really get cover. And Primaris Psykers are hardly better than Sorcerers. For a start, they can't get Lash.

Well covered Squeekenator, the OPs reasons for Guard being over-powered were pretty weak even by Warseer whining standards. There is nothing in the Guard codex that worries me nearly as much as various things in the Eldar, CSM & Ork books

catbarf
25-04-2009, 19:40
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think that Stormtroopers are overpowered then watch out for those guardsmen! :rolleyes:

I've never seen someone be so, well, wrong. Are you going to call Chaos Spawn overpowered next?


I think I said this before, but:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, you missed April Fool's day by 24 days. Better luck next year.:rolleyes:

1. Storm Troopers now have AP3 weapons as standard. A squad of ten will usually kill about 5 marines per turn.

2. A Primaris Psyker can fire 2d6 S6 shots out to 24" every turn. Chaos Sorcerers can't match that.

3. Your post, as mocking as it is, could be reported for flaming. It'd be much appreciated if you'd drop the condescending laughter and turn off caps lock.

Oh, and it'd be nice if you could offer some sort of argument. That might help.

RichBlake
25-04-2009, 19:47
1. Storm Troopers now have AP3 weapons as standard. A squad of ten will usually kill about 5 marines per turn.


By that logic they are perfectly balance as Marines kill roughly 5 Stormtroopers a turn from shooting and they cost the same points.



2. A Primaris Psyker can fire 2d6 S6 shots out to 24" every turn. Chaos Sorcerers can't match that.


No but neither can we group squads together and then blast them with a battlecannon.

They are different, not stronger/weaker.

catbarf
25-04-2009, 19:57
By that logic they are perfectly balance as Marines kill roughly 5 Stormtroopers a turn from shooting and they cost the same points.

True, true. I agree that they're not nearly as nasty as I initially thought them to be. But when I see posts like the one I responded to, I have to question whether or not he's even seen the new book.


They are different, not stronger/weaker.

Yes, they're different. But they also have more powerful abilities, and it seems very, very strange from a fluff perspective that a human, heavily-controlled psyker can outdo a ten thousand-year-old chaos sorceror with the might of the gods on his side.

Warforger
25-04-2009, 20:11
Like I said, this is exactly like the pre-SM codex reactions, everything sounds amazing and a auto-win button, but everyone appears to ignore then point costs. A standard Leman Russ now costs as much as a 10 man SM squad, thats without upgrades, not to mention the d6+6 inch flat out movement totally handicaps Demolishers and Punishers, these two same tanks are incredibly expensive still.

As for the Hot Shot lasguns, let's just do some math
Stormies, 5 man vs 5 SMs
Stormies
let's assume rapid fire range, 10 shots, approximently 6-7 hit 2-3 die
SM
10 shots
6-7 hit
4-5 wound
2-3 die

Its pretty equal, of course this shows how UP'd Stormies are, there lasguns against others like Orks are just lasguns in there book, against Termies there just lasguns in there book as well. SM can fight a close combat with its high S, but the Stormies are stuck with there S3 which fails everyone except when fighting T3.

In assault
let's say the Stormies charge
SM go first
3-4 hit
2-3 wound
1 died (let's say)

Stormies
8 attacks
4 hit
1 wound
0.4356 die

so 0 die basically, this just goes to show you never ignore point costs in Math Hammer. Storm Troopers are under powered, there I proved it.

It is important to remember what happened pre-SM codex, lots of complaining, then release, a joke.

Somerandomidiot
25-04-2009, 20:35
True, true. I agree that they're not nearly as nasty as I initially thought them to be. But when I see posts like the one I responded to, I have to question whether or not he's even seen the new book.

Yes, they're different. But they also have more powerful abilities, and it seems very, very strange from a fluff perspective that a human, heavily-controlled psyker can outdo a ten thousand-year-old chaos sorceror with the might of the gods on his side.

For the human psyker squad, I think the LD drop skill is incredibly fluffy (imagine a group of people chanting and focusing on your squad, getting in and messing with your heads- wouldn't be nearly as effective if it was just one more powerful person). The blast template one doesn't make quite as much sense, sadly. It would've been cooler for them to have some kind of "phantom images surround the enemy unit, making them think they're under attack. The unit must take a Ld test at -1Ld for each psyker in the unit: if passed, they may act as normal next turn. If failed, they will move at half speed, and suffer -1 BS and WS as they attempt to fight off the ghostly apparitions around them."

I don't see psykers as mobile artillery pieces, but that kind of support could be pretty cool.

Epicenter
25-04-2009, 23:52
No offense Catbarf, but I'm hedging my bets.

I'll hold off on my cries of cheese or overpowered until I see the Guard take first place at the UK GTs and so on.

My personal opinion is that it seems like huge cheese right now, but like every Guard codex, it'll have more holes than a beehive. It'll rapidly lose luster as people find out all those cheesy options are nowhere near as invincible and powerful as everyone believed. A 3-statline army still doesn't hold water without a metric ton of special rules. I'm not sure the new codex's special rules are on par with those of the existing Eldar codex. 3s on everything just makes for a uncompetitive army when everyone else is tuned to fight guys with 4s on everything.

There's a better-than-even chance (I'd say 70% likely) that everyone will be back to Orks, Eldar, CSM, and SM for their winning armies by the end of the summer and we'll be stuck praying for another 5 years or whatever that "next time, maybe next time, they'll finally get Phil Kelly to make us a brokenly powerful codex like the cool kids who win GTs and GW loves."

The_Outsider
26-04-2009, 00:27
The new guard codex is much like the current one, only it is a bit shinier in some areas and units now have sensible cost levels.

Hydra flak tanks will be a good way to severly hamper eldar and DE air cav forces (yet both forces pack soem of the most mobile anti tank in the game). but they do virtually nothing particularly special against all the other forces.

Im am impressed with the new guard codex because it doesn't look broken on paper and I doubt it will be in game - mech guard will still be the beast it was before, only with a little more "punch" where it matters.

Seriously, in the last couple codices only chaos and orks have received any real buffs to their troop chocies.

Lord Cook
26-04-2009, 00:37
"next time, maybe next time, they'll finally get Phil Kelly to make us a brokenly powerful codex like the cool kids who win GTs and GW loves."

I wouldn't want a broken codex anyway.

Mad Larkin UK
26-04-2009, 01:05
There's a better-than-even chance (I'd say 70% likely) that everyone will be back to Orks, Eldar, CSM, and SM for their winning armies by the end of the summer "

I agree with you about guard being a nice army but not really broken, i think probably second tier.

But how did space marines get in that list above ! :p

Are you aware of how badly they did at the UKGT? its really hard to put a nice list together imo, because their troops are expensive and you have to take 10 to get any options, and they are still not that survivable for the price of 3 guardsmen.

As you said, cant wait for the heats. Especially since Allen El sour who came 3rd at the final with chaos has already bought 6 Valkyries. Boy will that be a sight on the table (and a pain in the butt to transport! )

:p

Larks

DarkMatter2
26-04-2009, 02:42
I wouldn't want a broken codex anyway.

Better a broken codex than an uncompetitive codex.

Logan_uc
26-04-2009, 03:17
I think guard is very very paworfull... if played raight. ork kill guardsman as easely as guardsman kill ork in shoting, in cc they rape guardsmen, your squad kills a plague marine in one shoting fase... itīs good dice roling, lots of tanks... lots of meltas, pick the winner.
IG can be devastating but it is an anforgiving army.. it reflects more the tatical skill than any other army (dark eldar excluded).

Landsknecht
26-04-2009, 03:34
I think guard is very very paworfull... if played raight. ork kill guardsman as easely as guardsman kill ork in shoting, in cc they rape guardsmen, your squad kills a plague marine in one shoting fase... itīs good dice roling, lots of tanks... lots of meltas, pick the winner.
IG can be devastating but it is an anforgiving army.. it reflects more the tatical skill than any other army (dark eldar excluded).

:wtf:

It's okay if English isn't your first language, but try to bear with the rest of the forum and type intelligibly.

Lord_Squinty
26-04-2009, 04:35
A quick question for the OP... Have you actually used the new dex in a game before "the sky is falling"?
At first glance it does seem overpowered, but try actually playing against it then see.

The_Outsider
26-04-2009, 11:58
Better a broken codex than an uncompetitive codex.

Are you a chaos or eldar player by chance?

byteboy
26-04-2009, 12:08
i40k shows me that 10 hot shots from STs vs. Marines in the open generate 2.2 wounds.
Reverse that and you get 2.2 vs the STs.

Seems kind of even, albeit with STs being at a major disadvantage when it comes to the range of their basic weapon.

I still do not see this codex being overpowered like the greenskins though. I just see a bunch more cool unit types that will make for very different armies.

DarkMatter2
26-04-2009, 12:29
Are you a chaos or eldar player by chance?


Not at all. I started this hobby with IG and will more than likely end with IG. I've got a Mordian army finished and am starting two other IG armies.

I feel like Guard players are typecast as the harmless nice guys of the 40k hobby, and if our codex comes out good we somehow have to apologize for it. "We just love painting our 300 men little armies. We'll smile and laugh while your Marines bum rape us. Don't take us seriously." I want to see the current mindset of Guard players replaced with a really killer competitive streak - certainly not WAAC, but the "our codex blows so we should be thankful for every win we get" days are passed now.

All the patronising goodwill that people on these forums show the Guard players is a direct result of no one feeling threatened by the codex in a competitive situation. If the new codex gets mainstream, the Guard start winning more and more, I guarantee you that will be gone in an instant.

I'd rather have a codex that was broken for a while and really put the fear of the Emperor into people than have another useless, only good if you spam drop troops type affair.

The real point being here is that the new codex is exactly what the doctor ordered - it got rid of the overcomplicated and (for the most part) weak doctrine system while still maintaining all the variety you could want. And, after working on my old list, I found out I had enough points left over from the conversion to the new codex to buy a grenadier veteran plasma chimera squad and a Banewolf.

Bunnahabhain
26-04-2009, 12:43
I'd disagree with doctrines being either complex or weak.

Just like 90% of that codex, it suffered from pernicious overcosting- ie almost everything was too expensive. The notable exceptions were the free ones, like drop troops and close order drill. Of course, many of these, like mechanised, although themselves free, then let you buy more overcosted units, ie 93 pt chimeras. Only a few of the options were truely dire, even in 5th ed. I don't think any defence of warrior weapons is possible!

A perfectly good 5th ed codex could have been made out that one in about 20 minutes, by the simple process of going through, slightly altering a few entries ( ie removing the clause that makes all the platoons junior officers ICs..), and cutting most points cost for units, for many upgrades, and many doctrines

DarkMatter2
26-04-2009, 12:45
A perfectly good 5th ed codex could have been made out that one in about 20 minutes, by the simple process of going through, slightly altering a few entries ( ie removing the clause that makes all the platoons junior officers ICs..), and cutting most points cost for units, for many upgrades, and many doctrines


No doubt it could have been, but why?

I like the approach of the new dex quite honestly.

Gutlord Grom
26-04-2009, 14:40
Not at all. I started this hobby with IG and will more than likely end with IG. I've got a Mordian army finished and am starting two other IG armies.

I feel like Guard players are typecast as the harmless nice guys of the 40k hobby, and if our codex comes out good we somehow have to apologize for it. "We just love painting our 300 men little armies. We'll smile and laugh while your Marines bum rape us. Don't take us seriously." I want to see the current mindset of Guard players replaced with a really killer competitive streak - certainly not WAAC, but the "our codex blows so we should be thankful for every win we get" days are passed now.

All the patronising goodwill that people on these forums show the Guard players is a direct result of no one feeling threatened by the codex in a competitive situation. If the new codex gets mainstream, the Guard start winning more and more, I guarantee you that will be gone in an instant.

I'd rather have a codex that was broken for a while and really put the fear of the Emperor into people than have another useless, only good if you spam drop troops type affair.

The real point being here is that the new codex is exactly what the doctor ordered - it got rid of the overcomplicated and (for the most part) weak doctrine system while still maintaining all the variety you could want. And, after working on my old list, I found out I had enough points left over from the conversion to the new codex to buy a grenadier veteran plasma chimera squad and a Banewolf.

This is not a metaphysical battle between good and evil. Space Marine players don't cause the downfall of other armies, or meet in dark castles on rocky spires to discuss evil plots about a new codex. Its not like we enter the minds of the codex designers and whisper in their deepest dreams " Do not update Dark Eldar Mwuhahahaha".

Was the last codex the best thing ever: no. But are you being a little more that to stinging in your critique of it, yes. It's not like Guard was an impossible army to play, that anyone could just walk over them without a thought. They were pretty good at what they did which was ostensibly gunlines, and very little could put out quite as much firepower. I'm pretty sure spam drop troops was not the only viable list out there for the last book.

That said, the new codex is pretty good. It changes things up, much like the new Orks (which bizarrely has not disappeared, even though it is now one of "top tier" codexes).Are there things I don't like? Yes( like say outflanking infantry platoons in Chimera's), but its not like I'm going to start a thread about how IG are destroying the game for x poorly thought out reason.

So honestly, where did that bizarre little "we shall rise again!" thing come again in your second paragraph.

Laser guided fanatic
26-04-2009, 15:02
This is not a metaphysical battle between good and evil. Space Marine players don't cause the downfall of other armies, or meet in dark castles on rocky spires to discuss evil plots about a new codex. Its not like we enter the minds of the codex designers and whisper in their deepest dreams " Do not update Dark Eldar Mwuhahahaha".



They don't awww. Oh well at least we know that space marines are ruling the earth in secret.

Codsticker
26-04-2009, 15:17
I feel like Guard players are typecast as the harmless nice guys of the 40k hobby, and if our codex comes out good we somehow have to apologize for it. "We just love painting our 300 men little armies. We'll smile and laugh while your Marines bum rape us. Don't take us seriously."

No kidding... it's as if we have personally insulted our opponent's manhood if we thrash them with our Guard army. I have a had a couple of opponents get right snippy afterward (and bizarrely, still get good Sportsmanship scores at a tournament...:eyebrows:).

getupandgo
26-04-2009, 15:20
Overpowered or not (there will always be ways to beat any cheesey army, be it 'Nidzilla, Nob Bikers, Spam of any sort, or Lash), I'll be glad to have more guard players to face... And with some variety to boot.

RichBlake
26-04-2009, 15:22
I feel like Guard players are typecast as the harmless nice guys of the 40k hobby, and if our codex comes out good we somehow have to apologize for it. "We just love painting our 300 men little armies. We'll smile and laugh while your Marines bum rape us. Don't take us seriously." I want to see the current mindset of Guard players replaced with a really killer competitive streak - certainly not WAAC, but the "our codex blows so we should be thankful for every win we get" days are passed now.

Speak for yourself. My reputation at my club is that of a player who has appalling luck which lets down quite good strategy. Also I have a reputation for throwing my Guardsmen's lives away. The other Guard player has a reputation of being a good player. Both of us have a reputation for being fair.

Neither of us aren't taken seriously as opponents, the difference was that with the old codex I made my opponents work hard to beat me, with this one I can make them work hard and still lose :p



All the patronising goodwill that people on these forums show the Guard players is a direct result of no one feeling threatened by the codex in a competitive situation. If the new codex gets mainstream, the Guard start winning more and more, I guarantee you that will be gone in an instant.

I'd put it down to the large Guard community crushing anyone who says the codex is overpowered, because it isn't.


I'd rather have a codex that was broken for a while and really put the fear of the Emperor into people than have another useless, only good if you spam drop troops type affair.

Not really, if this codex was overpowered I'd probably lose heart and start using my Inquisition list more. I like Guard being challenging in a way that Space Marines aren't.

Badger[Fr]
26-04-2009, 15:30
1. Storm Troopers now have AP3 weapons as standard. A squad of ten will usually kill about 5 marines per turn.
No, they won't. S3 weapons are highly unreliable, and the average kill ratio is therefore irrelevant. Stormtroopers can either wipe out an unit in a single shooting phase, or fail to kill anything, then get slaughtered in close combat. I know I wouldn't spend almost 200 points in such an unpredictable choice, when I could instead focus on units who already proved to be reliable . If only ST had S5 AP3 Assault 1 weapons...



2. A Primaris Psyker can fire 2d6 S6 shots out to 24" every turn. Chaos Sorcerers can't match that.
You must be joking, right? I'd favour the Lash of Submission over any IG psychic power.

catbarf
26-04-2009, 16:07
;3511912']No, they won't. S3 weapons are highly unreliable, and the average kill ratio is therefore irrelevant.

Where are you drawing this conclusion from? The chance of getting no kills when a squad of ten rapid-fires is six-tenths of a percent. A squad of ten will usually kill about 5 marines per turn. That's the mean and the mode. It's the most likely occurrence.

The_Outsider
26-04-2009, 16:10
Psst, with a S3 AP3 gun the AP3 does only matter against marines and in such a matchup that 5+ to wound really, really hurts.

Oh no an AP3 gun against my 5+ save gaunts/guardian/anything DE/orks - you're better off bringing a S4 weapons with no AP.

catbarf
26-04-2009, 16:12
Psst, with a S3 AP3 gun the AP3 does only matter against marines

So it only matters in the vast majority of games?

:p

I agree that STs aren't nearly as powerful as I first thought them to be. But nonetheless, an AP3 standard gun is very, very atypical for Guard.

Norsehawk
26-04-2009, 16:14
Lets see:

ZOMG!!! Thousand Sons are over powered AP3 bolters OMFG!
ZOMG!!! SPAES MAREENS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! AP3 Bolters!!! OMFG
ZOMG!!! STORMTROOPAS ARE OVERPOWRd! AP3 Hotshot Lasguns.

*yawn*

Do we have to have complete outrage for every single upcoming codex over something that on a rumors page seems overpowered but in reality is well balanced either by points, limits to the number that can be taken, or fragility of the unit? This constant crying wolf is getting old, really old.

Hotshot lasguns put holes in things, which means they will poke right through most armor, however such a tightly focused beam doesn't carry a whole lot of destructive power, which is why it is only str 3.

The_Outsider
26-04-2009, 16:16
I agree that STs aren't nearly as powerful as I first thought them to be. But nonetheless, an AP3 standard gun is very, very atypical for Guard.

It is powerful, but S3 on a T3 4+ save guy is not going to be tabling marines anytime soon.

The only AP3 guns on standard troops that people need to worry about are thousand sons given that they are marines and then some.

I wouldn't leave home without a unit of ST in my force, but I certainly wouldn't take more than 2.

Fire Harte
26-04-2009, 16:16
What there's a new IG codex already after May 09!? :eek:

Nah but in all honesty I don't think its broken...

zeep
26-04-2009, 16:23
I, for one, welcome our new guard overlords...;)

Avatar of the Eldar
26-04-2009, 16:26
Do we have to have complete outrage for every single upcoming codex...

Of course you know the answer to this.

As surely as the sun comes up in the East and sets in the West. :)

Laser guided fanatic
26-04-2009, 16:31
Hmm I wonder what will be 'overpowered' in the space wolves codex.

Reinnon
26-04-2009, 16:37
Fenris wolves with AP3 barks.

Seriously though, the guard codex is like the orks. Its powerful (always good), its fluffy (you can make some really good theme builds with it) and the special rules are pretty cool (orders, just so... guard like).

Makes up for the fairly dull marine books.

Stormtroopers are nasty, but point a heavy bolter against them and they will fall apart like any other guard unit. Thousand sons were moaned about, but they didn't break the game, likewise with sternguard - i can't see stormtroopers suddenly acheiving where these two units failed.

RCgothic
26-04-2009, 16:53
Standard guardsmen are at everything than stormtroopers.

For a start you get three times as many guardsmen as stormtroopers.
Guardsmen do 1/3 less wounds against marines, but as already mentioned there are three times as many of them, so they equal out.
Against anything other than 3+ saves, guardsmen are far better than stormtroopers.
Then order them to 'Front Rank! FIRE! Second Rank! FIRE!', and that's an additional 50 to 100% effectiveness.
And they also have a longer range.
They have three times as many wounds.
Can be in three places at once.
And score.

Really, why would anyone want stormtroopers when guardsmen are so excellent? (lols at excellent guardsmen, but they really are).

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 17:08
Guardsmen don't do 1/3 as any wounds as storm troopers. Their guns do, but they BS3 vs BS4 means the stormtroopers are still better against marines outside of cover.

Stormtroopers are worth it because their deployment choices make them versatile, and that versatility opens options that aren't otherwise there. Their deployment choices also mean they nearly always will get the jump on their target, and combined with some decent support, you should be able to protect them.

Badger[Fr]
26-04-2009, 17:13
A squad of ten will usually kill about 5 marines per turn. That's the mean and the mode. It's the most likely occurrence.
The variance is such that you can't reliably know how many Space Marines you will kill each turn. You actually have more than 53% chance of killing strictly less than 5 Space Marines a turn.



Stormtroopers are worth it because their deployment choices make them versatile,
It depends on the deployment mode. Deep striking them is a rather risky choice if you consider how unreliable their guns already are.



Seriously though, the guard codex is like the orks.
I hope it was! The Ork Codex isn't plagued by a total lack of internal balance and a considerable amount of rubbish units.

catbarf
26-04-2009, 17:13
Just a few things-


For a start you get three times as many guardsmen as stormtroopers.Guardsmen do 1/3 less wounds against marines, but as already mentioned there are three times as many of them, so they equal out.

Storm Troopers do 50% better, actually, since they're BS4.


Then order them to 'Front Rank! FIRE! Second Rank! FIRE!', and that's an additional 50 to 100% effectiveness.

I'm fairly certain you can use orders on Storm Troopers. With that in mind, you're more likely to be able to give an order to a single squad of STs than three squads of Guardsmen.


They have three times as many wounds.

But against Bolters, the STs will take half as many wounds.

Then there's also deep strike, special operations, and getting BS4 for your special weapons.

catbarf
26-04-2009, 17:23
;3512181']The variance is such that you can't reliably know how many Space Marines you will kill each turn. You actually have more than 53% chance of killing strictly less than 5 Space Marines a turn.

Here is the exact probability of the number of kills caused by Storm Trooper fire (20 shots) against Space Marines:

0: 0.7%
1: 3.8%
2: 10.2%
3: 17.5%
4: 21.2%
5: 19.4%
6: 13.8%
7: 7.9%
8: 3.7%
9: 1.4%

And here is the probability of Space Marine bolter fire (20 shots) against the Storm Troopers:

0: 0.7%
1: 3.7%
2: 10.2%
3: 17.4%
4: 21.2%
5: 19.4%
6: 13.8%
7: 7.9%
8: 3.7%
9: 1.4%

What a surprise. It's almost exactly the same. In both cases, you have a roughly 57.5% chance of getting 3, 4, or 5 kills.

The S of the individual shots does not affect the deviation. It is the number of dice you are throwing out that determines it, and 20 is more than enough to get relatively predictable results.

Finn
26-04-2009, 17:37
Massive wall of truth.

I haven't seen a finer summary of the way GW's rules habits drive away newbies. And as a part-time game designer (with a focus in mechanics and balance, mind you), their inability to create an internally consistent system is frustrating. For the record, the game I design for and run is part of a dying breed and we've got our own newbie problems. Sure it's a different system, but the same basic mindset applies - you have to attract and hold onto new players. In order to survive in the long run, this new player retention rate has to beat the old player retirement rate.


So, while we can "take the high road", and pretend there isn't a problem with the fact that GW refuses to give proper backwards compatibility updates for existing codexes, and keeps setting the bar higher with each new codex, we're doing more harm to the hobby than good. We should be honest and not "write off" the inconsistencies with new codexes in the name of "fun". Everyone I know's idea of fun is not losing to the latest greatest codex.

There should always be a regular schedule of releases to bring old rules up to date. However, GW has a business model to sustain (however illogical it may appear to us) and the sale of minis and their release schedules will always trump the release schedule of rules. If GW were to release every pertinent update for older (but still legal) armies every time a new codex and its related minis came out, they'd be taking some of the emphasis away from the new releases because some people would inevitably be more attracted to the updated rules for the old armies. Ok, long sentence, but you understand what I mean, right?

The solution to this, IMO, could be something like a widely recognized and respected "rules consensus" created by a fan base. While such a thing would likely never be recognized by GW for sanctioned tournaments (it is possible, however slim the chance), at the very least it would provide a good resource for other tournaments and events to use. Bell of Lost Souls has something approaching the audience and recognition necessary to do something like that.

And by rules consensus I don't mean codex rewrites. I mean updating points costs and wargear rules, and maybe some other odds and ends that need a quick look.

kikkoman
26-04-2009, 17:44
;3511912']No, they won't. S3 weapons are highly unreliable, and the average kill ratio is therefore irrelevant. Stormtroopers can either wipe out an unit in a single shooting phase, or fail to kill anything, then get slaughtered in close combat. I know I wouldn't spend almost 200 points in such an unpredictable choice, when I could instead focus on units who already proved to be reliable . If only ST had S5 AP3 Assault 1 weapons...


are you making some kind of joke about vespids? There's some kind of GW magic behind ap3 units... or ones made to kill space marines.

I wonder how storm troopers do compared to vespids, sterngard, and flash gits.

I just can't help but compare storm troopers to Fire Dragons though
for 1pt less you have higher ws, i, a stronger, more versatile gun, meltabombs...

you lose on special deployment, but Fire Dragons often jump out of an invincible super speedy battle sled anyways.

Avatar of the Eldar
26-04-2009, 17:48
Finn,

It would be interesting to see what the player community would come up with using virtual collaboration technologies. If organized properly, it could take rules development/arbitration of GW's hands and leave them to making models. It would be one big "house rules". That said, I think there'd also be a fair possibility to end up with a virtual Lord of the Flies. It would require some dedicated facilitation and tech savvy.

Warforger
26-04-2009, 18:00
Like I said. Since Stormies and Tacticals give each other similar amounts of kills, Stormies are UP'd, Tacticals out match them in assault. If I were a developer I would have considered the hot shot lasguns a upgrade rather then standard.

Like I said, this is just like the Pre-Marine codex mindset, if they get shiny new toys they must be getting OP'd, if there rules are getting better they must be getting OP'd. Fact of the Matter is, is that everything is balance-able, even cheesy lists like Legions, its always the points cost and 0-1 limits which make it balanced.

Leman Russes get new guns and they now can get 5 shots of plasma cannon goodness and camo netting for the 3+ cover save...... for the cost of a Land Raider.

When the codex comes out, everyone is going to be disappointed at how pitiful it does, just like SM.

Finn
26-04-2009, 18:01
Finn,

It would be interesting to see what the player community would come up with using virtual collaboration technologies. If organized properly, it could take rules development/arbitration of GW's hands and leave them to making models. It would be one big "house rules". That said, I think there'd also be a fair possibility to end up with a virtual Lord of the Flies. It would require some dedicated facilitation and tech savvy.

It is actually something I would be interested in doing. Really interested in doing - I almost feel like I need to make something like a craigslist post looking for like-minded folk. GW can do all the hard work of making the original codex, but when armies are being neglected (to the detriment of the game) it means things have gotten out of hand. I didn't start until early 3rd edition, but does anybody remember how quickly codices were released in 2nd? Seems to me they used to be released more often, but perhaps that was only because they needed to get all of the armies updated for 3rd edition as fast as possible. Admittedly, some of the army books did feel rather hurried, duct taped together if you will.

You wouldn't need anything other than a decent, working, navigable website I'd think, and perhaps Skype or Ventrilo if you're coordinating efforts from around the world.

Maybe I should actually open the Rules Development forum from time to time...

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 18:30
Like I said. Since Stormies and Tacticals give each other similar amounts of kills, Stormies are UP'd, Tacticals out match them in assault. If I were a developer I would have considered the hot shot lasguns a upgrade rather then standard.

Why does the fact that stormtroopers have a pile of deployment options never come into people's equations. If you play 40k by lining up units and having shoot-offs, then your logic works. But deployment, manoeuvrability and creating mismatches is important in the game. Maybe the shooting/combat abilities of the stormtroopers are a little worse than the marines, but 3 pts difference would be a stretch there IMO, and all the deployment options are worth at least 2 pts. So maybe you could say there's a 1 pt difference there, which is 10 pts in a 1500 pt list, which is roughly 0.7% of your armylist, so in the scheme of things, pretty much insignificant.

But maybe you're paying a premium for two things: deployment options not easily available in the armylist (scout/infiltrate/deep strike) and to maintain a scarcity in stormtroopers, who they want to work as a specialized tool rather than a mainline choice. Not to mention that the comparison to marines is 100% irrelevant since they're different armies.

Oh, and for your line 'em up and shoot 'em down scenarios, stormtroopers are much better than fire dragons without even considering their deployment options. Does this mean stormtroopers are overpowered?

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 18:34
It is actually something I would be interested in doing. Really interested in doing - I almost feel like I need to make something like a craigslist post looking for like-minded folk. GW can do all the hard work of making the original codex, but when armies are being neglected (to the detriment of the game) it means things have gotten out of hand. I didn't start until early 3rd edition, but does anybody remember how quickly codices were released in 2nd? Seems to me they used to be released more often, but perhaps that was only because they needed to get all of the armies updated for 3rd edition as fast as possible. Admittedly, some of the army books did feel rather hurried, duct taped together if you will.

You wouldn't need anything other than a decent, working, navigable website I'd think, and perhaps Skype or Ventrilo if you're coordinating efforts from around the world.

Maybe I should actually open the Rules Development forum from time to time...

Having seen the decision process in the LRB for bloodbowl and some of the other specialist games, I'm not much of a fan of this. Unless you have a central decision maker who's willing to go against some concensus, advocacy groups who'll complain en masse to get their way have a lot of sway, giving you things like the overly nerfed fouling mechanics in the new bloodbowl rules.

Marneus Calgar
26-04-2009, 19:36
The Space Marines and Stormtroopers kill each other quite equally. After the stormtroopers deepstrike (unless you put them in a Valkyrie and hope it survives, since they are holding the all mighty Stormtroopers) they will achieve to kill 5 Space Marines. The remaining 5 Space Marines, being within 12", will shoot their bolt pistols (I believe they have them, though they are not even necessary) and charge the Stormtroopers. The Marines will kill about 2 Stormtroopers in close combat and the Stormtroopers will fail to kill a single Space Marine. The Stormtroopers have to make a LD test on a 6, which they will most likely fail and have a high chance of being whipped out in the chase.

A pretty good trade for the Space Marines.

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 20:00
The storm troopers, if they didn't have a power weapon, would kill .94444 space marines in return. so it's a Ld7 test. If we want to make this realistic, there's a pair of special weapons and possibly a power weapon in the storm troopers, and the marines have their special/heavy and a power fist. The special weapons will likely kill an extra marine or so (plasma would kill 2.2 marines, compared to .8889 wounds from the hellguns).

Getting the jump also means you can for example outflank exactly where you want and take out a unit of marines that's already lost a couple models, meaning there's only 1-2 marines left to countercharge.

kikkoman
26-04-2009, 20:57
With that in mind, you're more likely to be able to give an order to a single squad of STs than three squads of Guardsmen.

if your storm troopers are within 6" of your command squad though, they probably haven't used any of their nice deployment rules that they pay a premium for.




Oh, and for your line 'em up and shoot 'em down scenarios, stormtroopers are much better than fire dragons without even considering their deployment options. Does this mean stormtroopers are overpowered?

you really think so? Storm troopers will cost over 20pts if they upgrade to meltaguns, which dragons come standard with.

10 fire dragons will on average kill 6.5 space marines in shooting,
they will also kill terminators, monstrous creatures, and vehicles, and at least have the option of assaulting after shooting.
vs ap4 targets, the Exarch can pick up a heavy flamer.

I figure the ideal role of storm troopers isn't killing marines though, it's killing t3 3+/4+ units like fire warriors, aspect warriors, and sisters of battle.

for anti marine power, a veteran suicide squad with demo charge or plasma guns seems more viable. They're going to die after firing at such a short range, at least make their death cheap.

actually, 10 vets with demo charge+3 plasma guns, how many pts will that come to compared to 10 bare storm troopers?

Lord_Crull
26-04-2009, 21:20
I feel like Guard players are typecast as the harmless nice guys of the 40k hobby, and if our codex comes out good we somehow have to apologize for it. "We just love painting our 300 men little armies. We'll smile and laugh while your Marines bum rape us. Don't take us seriously." I want to see the current mindset of Guard players replaced with a really killer competitive streak - certainly not WAAC, but the "our codex blows so we should be thankful for every win we get" days are passed now.



I have never met a guard player like that. All the guard players I have seen have been quite distainful of marines and think that they are ''cool'' because they play the ''underdog'' army. And those people feel offended that they will no longer have an ''underdog'' army and disparage the game developers for not making them ''underdogs'' anymore. 4th edition Guard won every game I saw them play, outside of kill points Guard have NOTHING to complain about.

RCgothic
26-04-2009, 21:25
actually, 10 vets with demo charge+3 plasma guns, how many pts will that come to compared to 10 bare storm troopers?
145pts for vets equipped as described.

Shangrila
26-04-2009, 21:27
actually, 10 vets with demo charge+3 plasma guns, how many pts will that come to compared to 10 bare storm troopers?

10 Veterans with demolitions and 3 plasma guns are 20 points cheaper then 10 bare stormtroopers., without demolitons though you could have 30 veterans with 3 plasmas each instead of 20 bare Stormtroopers...

Finn
26-04-2009, 22:23
Having seen the decision process in the LRB for bloodbowl and some of the other specialist games, I'm not much of a fan of this. Unless you have a central decision maker who's willing to go against some concensus, advocacy groups who'll complain en masse to get their way have a lot of sway, giving you things like the overly nerfed fouling mechanics in the new bloodbowl rules.

Indeed, I do prefer Rules By Committee - somebody has to have the final say and the people doing the writing as a whole have to be able to separate concerns that have merit from misinformed or ignorant whining. I'm not entirely sure what being a GW codex guy entails (or even if it's a full time job), but I can't imagine they spend as much time playing as many of us "out here" do. Combine that with the seeming lack of communication/coherence of system between different codex authors and I think we've found one of the larger causes of the set of Codex Problems.

Marneus Calgar
26-04-2009, 22:37
The current stormtroopers, with 2 plasma guns and deepstrike, cost 130 points. The current stormtroopers with plasma guns will kill 3.33 Space Marines at 12". The new stormtroopers without plasma guns cost 160 points and will kill 4.22 Space Marines at 12". The new stormtroopers, without plasma guns are 3% more effective at killing Space Marines point for point. If both squads are equipped with plasma guns, the new stormtroopers will kill 5.55 Space Marines compared to the 3.33 Space Marines with the old. The new stormtroopers will also cost 190 points to 130, making them 8% more effective point for point than the old.

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 22:50
Current storm troopers with 2 plasma guns, deepstrike and infiltrate cost 140 pts, and are still less flexible with their deployment options. The price increase on plasma guns shouldn't be compared because everyone knows plasma was underpriced before. New storm troopers are better in combat for what that's worth too.

RCgothic
26-04-2009, 22:54
I find it quite fluffy how the plasmagun is worth three times more than the life of the standard guardsman who carries it.

Lord Cook
26-04-2009, 23:10
The price increase on plasma guns shouldn't be compared because everyone knows plasma was underpriced before.

Do we? :eyebrows:

I don't think it was underpriced at all. Not when you consider the mediocre accuracy of the model firing it and their poor armour making them a self-inflicted casualty waiting to happen.

Sure storm troopers have better armour and accuracy, but the fact that any special weapon for storm troopers is replacing an Ap3 basic gun for which you have already paid a lot of points destroys that little advantage on the spot.

Marneus Calgar
26-04-2009, 23:17
Current storm troopers with 2 plasma guns, deepstrike and infiltrate cost 140 pts, and are still less flexible with their deployment options. The price increase on plasma guns shouldn't be compared because everyone knows plasma was underpriced before. New storm troopers are better in combat for what that's worth too.

I have always used deepstrike for my Stormtroopers. There is little sense of buying them very limited options which I would not even be able to use at the same time, much like the new Stormtroopers are forced to do. There were a one time suicide unit and still are.

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 23:26
But it's an across the line increase. And the basic guardsmen pay 'the same' because it takes 170 pts to get a plasma gun in a marine army compared to 65 pts to get it in a guard army.

RCgothic
26-04-2009, 23:32
But it's an across the line increase. And the basic guardsmen pay 'the same' because it takes 170 pts to get a plasma gun in a marine army compared to 65 pts to get it in a guard army.

180pts to get it in a Marine army I think, squad plus gun.

decker_cky
26-04-2009, 23:37
Yea, you're right. I was counting them at 160 for 10.

Glancing through codex space marines....bikers look like the cheapest unit to get plasma guns. 105 pts minimum. Command squads are the next cheapest at 130 pts, then sternguard at 135 pts.

Nexus Trimean
27-04-2009, 20:00
I, for one, welcome our new guard overlords...;)

Im sorry. i just shot soda out my nose. Well placed.

Im looking forward to new Guard, But it is unlikely my Army will change much, Mechanized guard. 2 Leman russ's and 1 bassie, 2 hellhounds, and 3 Chimeras. there is no room for much else.

decker_cky
27-04-2009, 20:44
Im sorry. i just shot soda out my nose. Well placed.

Im looking forward to new Guard, But it is unlikely my Army will change much, Mechanized guard. 2 Leman russ's and 1 bassie, 2 hellhounds, and 3 Chimeras. there is no room for much else.

:wtf:

Mechanized guard and you only have 3 chimeras? So a command squad and 2 vet squads or an IC HQ and 3 vet squads? Sounds like a few more scoring units could be handy.

Corpse
27-04-2009, 20:50
I would like to say, for the non Power Armor codexes getting cool revisions, I welcome anti power armor spammable armies. Orks and IG got theirs, Eldar always had it, now its time for D.E., Kroot and Tau!

Go go powah rangahs (eldar theme song)..

catbarf
27-04-2009, 20:53
The price increase on plasma guns shouldn't be compared because everyone knows plasma was underpriced before.

Plasma wasn't undercosted, it was just the only vaguely competitive weapon available to Guard given that most armies are MEQs. Lasguns, grenade launchers, and flamers are useless against these 3+ save armies. And the plasma gun is still only hitting half the time, virtually guaranteed to misfire if you rapid fire, and will almost certainly kill the wielder when it overheats- a good 15-ish points right down the drain. A meltagun is more lethal and doesn't overheat, its only weakness is the short range.

I imagine we'll see meltaspam armies with the new book. Three squads of Veterans with three meltaguns each firing right from the game start are going to do a hell of a lot of damage.

decker_cky
27-04-2009, 21:35
Against vehicles, yes. But a flamer that can touch 5 models will do as much damage as a plasma gun against MEQ, and are far better against orks, who seem to be a top army these days. Meltaguns aren't special against infantry, but are nice against monstrous creatures and vehicles. Plasma guns are nice against light vehicles, heavy infantry and are even decent against any infantry. So they pay a premium for that versatility. Grenade launchers I'll admit aren't looking to be worth 5 pts in my testing. I think I'll take sniper rifles over them.

Threeshades
27-04-2009, 23:32
The only thing really bugging me abotu hte new guard is really that they have much cheaper and better fast skimmers than Eldar and Dark Eldar. That goes against the fluff heavily and i cant see where it fits game balance that an army thats made for slow advance and heavy fire gets such a super fast vehicle at a better price than an army made for super fast movement.

Finn
27-04-2009, 23:50
Grenade launchers I'll admit aren't looking to be worth 5 pts in my testing. I think I'll take sniper rifles over them.

Grenade Launchers are the same as before, and 3 points cheaper. I'm anxiously awaiting the points rebate...

They've never been a great weapon, simply a decent one. They've got 24" assault range, you can fire blasts if you're facing T3 or tightly grouped enemies, the S6 really isn't bad (especially when combined with the assault 24" part) against T4 to cause a couple more wounds and force a morale check, or against light vehicles. Admittedly, I will no longer be able to deep strike 4 of them and try to crack the rear of a vehicle, but oh well.

Killingspree
28-04-2009, 00:10
The only thing really bugging me abotu hte new guard is really that they have much cheaper and better fast skimmers than Eldar and Dark Eldar. That goes against the fluff heavily and i cant see where it fits game balance that an army thats made for slow advance and heavy fire gets such a super fast vehicle at a better price than an army made for super fast movement.
How do they have better skimmers?

-Valks only have 12 armor and no energy field, good but not that good. Melta's are gonna toast this little puppy (So will anything with high strength and multiple dice like ordinance). How will a melta toast it? Well this skimmer, more often than not will find its speed its own disadvantage as players with skimmers tend to get too aggressive in their broad sweeping moves. Oh and you are gonna wanna unload your cargo within 12 inches to rapid fire, that means melta range!

-Wave Serpents (Bread and butter skimmers for eldar) take up no FOC and are not a squadron. THIS IS HUGE!!

-Wave Serpents don't have to expensive. Wave Serpents tend to be the pay for what you get type deal. Admittedly though, Guard do have better anti-tank skimmers (3 TL Lascannons is just mean!) but lance weapons are the same against AV13 and AV14 so its only a points advantage.

-Oh yea the cargo!! The eldar have some of the most lethal specialized infantry in this game, they can be absolutely lethal when they are directed at a specific target. Can you say fire dragons and dire avengers?

In all honesty Guard pack more of a punch for their vehicle (can drop off troops after moving much further and this is a big deal!) but Eldar tend to have the defense on lock down. Energy fields is nothing to blow off, hell you can't blow it off! I'll take resiliance for my transport over lethality since that's the job of my cargo!

EDIT: Forgot to also give Guard Valks credit in that they can use that damn scouts move. Evil little buggers.
K/S

Vaktathi
28-04-2009, 00:27
Hot-shot lasguns are just overpowered. Whut?

16pts each, S3, Rapid Fire 18" range. Still basically just BS4 4+sv guardsmen that are gonna get eaten alive by a countercharge of even just 4 or 5 marines (which is likely what will be left after they shoot)?

Overpowered? I doubt you'll find many IG players that consider them competitive for their cost and abilities.



Veterans are too cheap.
7pts for BS4 guardsmen? Undercosted? How so? A mechanized veteran squad loaded with plasma costs as much as a decently kitted 25man platoon. They cost 2pts less than they did previously, but lost Infiltrate, and the weapon most people took them with (plasma guns) went up in cost significantly.



Valkyries are the best skimmers in the game. Best? How so? I still think the Wave Serpent is better overall. *Maybe* it's on par for the best for it's cost, but the units is carries also aren't as capable as those of the Eldar. I still don't see how they are on par with the Wave Serpent or Falcon however.


Guard psykers make Chaos Sorcerors cry in envy. And are infinitely easier to kill, have less options, are less killy, and have fewer potential uses.


Doctrines may be gone, yet almost all of them (Carapace armor comes to mind as an exception) can be recreated within the default choices. Only for Vets & command squads really.




So I don't care if it's cheesy, or broken, or spammable. In the end, as long as everyone has a fun game, everybody wins. Focus on what matters most.
Why did you make a post where at first you say "OMG IG are overpowered", and then say "I don't care that guard are overpowered". That's kinda awkward.

Threeshades
28-04-2009, 01:26
How do they have better skimmers?

-Valks only have 12 armor and no energy field, good but not that good. Melta's are gonna toast this little puppy (So will anything with high strength and multiple dice like ordinance). How will a melta toast it? Well this skimmer, more often than not will find its speed its own disadvantage as players with skimmers tend to get too aggressive in their broad sweeping moves. Oh and you are gonna wanna unload your cargo within 12 inches to rapid fire, that means melta range!

-Wave Serpents (Bread and butter skimmers for eldar) take up no FOC and are not a squadron. THIS IS HUGE!!

-Wave Serpents don't have to expensive. Wave Serpents tend to be the pay for what you get type deal. Admittedly though, Guard do have better anti-tank skimmers (3 TL Lascannons is just mean!) but lance weapons are the same against AV13 and AV14 so its only a points advantage.

-Oh yea the cargo!! The eldar have some of the most lethal specialized infantry in this game, they can be absolutely lethal when they are directed at a specific target. Can you say fire dragons and dire avengers?

In all honesty Guard pack more of a punch for their vehicle (can drop off troops after moving much further and this is a big deal!) but Eldar tend to have the defense on lock down. Energy fields is nothing to blow off, hell you can't blow it off! I'll take resiliance for my transport over lethality since that's the job of my cargo!

EDIT: Forgot to also give Guard Valks credit in that they can use that damn scouts move. Evil little buggers.
K/S

honestly the energy field is a plus for Serpents. Still they are much lightlier armed, they have to actually stop where they want to unload troops. While a Valkyrie/Vendetta can just rush across if needed, and grav-chute insert the troops aboard. and stay out of melta range.

Anyway much more bugging me is the comparison to a falcon. Battle tank with Secondary transport option. What does it get? A weapon that mounts to 2 Str 8 lasercannons and some extra weaponry at comparably horrendous prices where a vendetta has 3 twin linked lascannons already included in base cost.


Well i guess it will always stay my wishful thinking that Eldar one day are represented in game as what they are supposed to be fluff-wise: Technologically superior to almost every other race in every way but also a lot less numerous.

RichBlake
28-04-2009, 01:41
Do we? :eyebrows:

I don't think it was underpriced at all. Not when you consider the mediocre accuracy of the model firing it and their poor armour making them a self-inflicted casualty waiting to happen.


I always found plasma under priced, it was pretty good and easy to spam. The argument "Oh it was the only way to be competetive" goes some way to excuse abusing it but doesn't excuse the price cost (which the players had no say in).

Seriously now in my army I think "Should I take a plasma gun?" and then I think "Hmm it's risky and it's expensive" so I only put it in the best squads. Also before a Platoon Command squad with 3 plasma guns and a medic cost what? 81 points? That squad could easily decimate a squad of terminators worth 200+ points and the medic helped ignore the overheating. Now that same squad would cost 105 and the chance of it overheating is compensated even more by FNP. That's STILL cheap for what it can do, just plasma spam is less likely.



Sure storm troopers have better armour and accuracy, but the fact that any special weapon for storm troopers is replacing an Ap3 basic gun for which you have already paid a lot of points destroys that little advantage on the spot.

Hmm I sort of see your point here, then again though a plasma gun is far far better then a Hot-Shot Lasgun. Stormtroopers with 2 Plasma Guns kick the hell out of Marine squads.

decker_cky
28-04-2009, 02:08
Yea...if plasma was the only way to make an otherwise 'uncompetitive' codex, then it must be underpriced since it balances for other overpriced options. Fix the cost of other choices and you balance it out (and a squad with a plasma gun is cheaper and better than it was before), so there is a net increase in that regard.

Warforger
28-04-2009, 02:14
Why does the fact that stormtroopers have a pile of deployment options never come into people's equations. If you play 40k by lining up units and having shoot-offs, then your logic works. But deployment, manoeuvrability and creating mismatches is important in the game. Maybe the shooting/combat abilities of the stormtroopers are a little worse than the marines, but 3 pts difference would be a stretch there IMO, and all the deployment options are worth at least 2 pts. So maybe you could say there's a 1 pt difference there, which is 10 pts in a 1500 pt list, which is roughly 0.7% of your armylist, so in the scheme of things, pretty much insignificant.

But maybe you're paying a premium for two things: deployment options not easily available in the armylist (scout/infiltrate/deep strike) and to maintain a scarcity in stormtroopers, who they want to work as a specialized tool rather than a mainline choice. Not to mention that the comparison to marines is 100% irrelevant since they're different armies.

Oh, and for your line 'em up and shoot 'em down scenarios, stormtroopers are much better than fire dragons without even considering their deployment options. Does this mean stormtroopers are overpowered?

Because everyone is posting about how they would destroy marines. I know how redeployment is good, however if you obsesses so much about Deployment (which Guard players shouldn't really be doing since there mainly a shooty army) then just choose to go 2nd.

RichBlake
28-04-2009, 02:23
Because everyone is posting about how they would destroy marines. I know how redeployment is good, however if you obsesses so much about Deployment (which Guard players shouldn't really be doing since there mainly a shooty army) then just choose to go 2nd.

I don't know, deploying Stormtroopers is a difficult choice sometimes, do you take:

A) The scout move and get close the the enemy combined with your move through cover to get into a good vantage point? This option is good vs T3 armies, all the better if they don't look poised to swamp you in their first turn.

B) Infiltrate the Stormtroopers and possibly cause pinning? Good against armies with morale trouble, or if the board particulary favours infiltration.

C) Deep Strike the Stormtroopers and get them to re-roll their scatter dice? This suits the old suicide squad method.

Players who can be creative with the use of Stormtroopers will find them the most rewarding, those players who see them as another squad to throw at the enemy in a haphazard fashion will find themselves disappointed.