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dingareth
26-04-2009, 04:02
So there's a tourney coming up soon, hosted by a club that I've never played at, so I was psyched to play people that I haven't seen before. However, when looking at the tournament site, I saw that they were running it a bit... weirdly...

Here's some restrictions that they've posted:

The following is all the restrictions that will be in place for the tournament. The goal of this system is to encourage a wide variety of armies that are balanced yet still competitive. We ask that you please read over all the restrictions very carefully and feel free to contact the organizers should you have any questions.

Army selection: 2000/2250/2500 points (depending on category, see below)

The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts and C to 2500pts.

Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos
Vampires

Category B (2250pts)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Empire
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves

Category C (2500pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War
Beasts of Chaos

When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses (e.g. 1234 would become 1234+123,4=1357) rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 10% (e.g. 567 would become 567-56,7=510). Note: All victory points are submitted unmodified and later calculated by event staff.

General composition rules

- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies .

- Rare choices may not be repeated, except for HE, where they can be repeated once for each choice.
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice.
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 10 PD/10DD in an army *
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines or characters).
- Max. 5 warmachines
- Max. 2 sources of Terror (incl. characters)

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 10 power dice in each magic phase. Note: you may generate more than 10 dice however extra dice are discarded once the limit is reached. The first bound spell you use counts as 1 power dice, all the following bound spells used in the same turn count as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They cannot choose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can however choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. All dice generated from magic resistance does not count in this maximum.

Race specific:
DAEMONS OF CHAOS - Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury, Keeper of Secrets with Siren Song and Lord of Change with Will of Tzeentch count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers)
DARK ELVES - Ring of Hotek counts as 3 dispel dice each phase; every assassin after the first counts as a hero choice; Shades limited in unit size to max. 10 models; the Pendant of Khaleth counts as a hero choice.
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as two Rare choices.
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
SKAVEN - Max 3 ratling guns; Jezzails count as war machines (ratio 4:1, always rounding up)
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; the Helm of Commandment counts as an additional hero choice if taken on a Vampire Lord.
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.
HIGH ELVES – Star Dragon takes an additional hero choice


While I'm going to play, I just wanted to see what people had to say about this, it seems wacky as I said. I just don't think it's the TO's job to be balancing the books, leave that to GW.

ICLRK625
26-04-2009, 04:08
Wow, those are some wild restrictions. I've never seen anything that extreme.

For once Ogres, Orcs and Goblins and Beasts may have the upper hand.

HellRaid
26-04-2009, 05:29
I could understand the differences in points costs, mostly.

But the rest.... just no. I mean REALLY no. I like to play Warhammer, not Blandhammer.


I especially thought the additional character restrictions were a bit over-the-top, until I saw...

WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman
...at which point I found them downright stupid.

ashaman76
26-04-2009, 05:32
Just take 2500 pts of Ogres and you should be good :rolleyes:

I'll wager that this group has a large concentration of power gamers, hence the restrictions. Have fun. You won't see me there :)

ICEMANQ
26-04-2009, 06:00
That's retardedly boring.

No, you can't play with the units you like. They are too good!

That sounds like the most uninteresting tournament ever. Talk about screwing dark elves. Pendant as a hero choice? Power of darkness counting towards PD limit? Fun.

blackjack
26-04-2009, 06:02
5 warmachines? Is that even a restriction? I can't think of a time I faced more than 4.


Boy dwarfs are gonna have a field day with basicly no magic, no restriction on thier anvil or warmachines and "only" 45 hand gunner allowed, they will rule the ranged attack game.

Erie Ed
26-04-2009, 06:11
i would avoid playing in this tournament

Oguleth
26-04-2009, 06:14
I don't mind comp normally, but this just seems... way over the top. Can understand the tiering and the different points allowance and bonus victory points and all of that, but on top of that start messing around with what people can take and not? I guess I would still in a theoretical situation go with either the points thing or the restrictions, but not both.

blackjack
26-04-2009, 06:14
Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.

What does that even mean? An anchient already takes a lord and a rare choice, what else do they want?

Erie Ed
26-04-2009, 06:16
like i said these restrictions are ridiculous don't play in this tournament...

lakissov
26-04-2009, 09:00
totaly reasonable restrictions, I'd say. mind it, I play dark elves, and I completely agree on all the measures to limit their power.

The aim of the restrictions here is clearly to force players into an environment where they'd have to actually use tactics to win instead of just making the most hardcore list. Unfortunately, lord choices are still alowed, so the aim will not be reached 100%.

Also, the answer to this question:
Q: What does that even mean? An anchient already takes a lord and a rare choice, what else do they want?
A: Remember, there is a restriction on not duplicating rares; this clause here doesn't allow you to take a treeman and a treeman ancient in the same list

Cypher, the Emperor
26-04-2009, 09:16
Wait, why would the Steam Tank be two rare choices, you already can only take one of them since you cant double rares, and that basically just hamstrings critical elements of a Empire Force.

That being said, restrictions and all, a WoC Gate list would do quite well at this tournament.

Tae
26-04-2009, 09:34
Fantasy Tournament with some restrictions - good idea and will generate personal interest from me in playing.

Fantasy Tournament with these restrictions - bad idea and will generate less than zero interest from me in playing.

Briohmar
26-04-2009, 11:17
Actually, Empire with Popemobile with armor of meteoric iron and speculum, battle wizard, priest, STank, lots of knights and 2 cannons will win this tournament. Its one of the power builds that is not even remotely restricted. It even gets an extra 250 points to throw in some outriders.

BattleofLund
26-04-2009, 11:43
Actually, Empire with Popemobile with armor of meteoric iron and speculum, battle wizard, priest, STank, lots of knights and 2 cannons will win this tournament. Its one of the power builds that is not even remotely restricted. It even gets an extra 250 points to throw in some outriders.

No more than five Knight units though! (3 Core, 2 Special) And if you do that in addition to your 2 Cannon, the Outriders won't have a Special slot to go in.

Max 45 shooters... I've faced a lot of what I would call 'gunlines' (that really are 'tactical with emphasis on missiles') and have seldom seen more than forty Handgunners/Thunderers/whatever.

But hey - at least Dark Elves are 'B' tier, not 'A'!

bob_the_small
26-04-2009, 12:01
No more than 45 crossbowmen? KACHING!

vahouth
26-04-2009, 12:02
These are the infamous ETC rules, already mentioned before in this forum.
Not the best comp rules for sure:eyebrows:
They even render Tzeentch themed armies from the DoC illegal since 3 horror units are forbidden, according to this: (post #94)

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184288&page=5

Stmr5000
26-04-2009, 14:30
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as two Rare choices.


If you really are going to play this way, I would just take Karl Franz on a dragon, then a warrior preist, allowing me to take Flagellants, a second rare unit.

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

Duke Georgal
26-04-2009, 14:36
That all looks like a well thought out way to correct imbalance in army books. It was obviously put together by a player with a lot of experience trying to make the game tournament more fair for all players.

Unfortunately, some crafty player will be able to search through the army books and figure out how to make a powerful army within the restrictions.

I applaud the effort that went into this.

kramplarv
26-04-2009, 14:47
Those restrictions have maed all games played for me last year a good fun.

people whining about those restrictions are probably mor into 2*6 flamers, BT4*fleshhounds, 3*10 horrors than most...

anyway, go for the tournament I'd say. Just for the experience. I'm quite amused by all people saying "waaah, thiz is tezh suxznu7z!" without even tried it out. :)

Rubicon
26-04-2009, 14:54
Standard ETC/UK Masters comp sheet. Makes perfect sense to me, you have to play what's on the table not rely on Comp scores after the game.

As for balancing the lists, well Daemons put pay to that. Just look at the no comp system at the GT...Daemons were right at the top (1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th places all daemons). This helps to avoid all of that.

happy_doctor
26-04-2009, 15:31
Yes, this is the ETC system.

While it has some shortcomings, I think it is a decent effort to "goad" players into a more balanced approach of warhammer.

My main complaint would be that it takes the originality out of list-building, as certain themed (and in no way overpowered) armies cannot be fielded due to the restrictions.

While taking 3 units of hounds of khorne or chaos knights might be overpowered, taking 3 units of imperial greatswords is much less so.

What is for sure, the games using this ruleset are usually more fun than the unrestricted games, if you are playing in a tournament.

On a side note, the system that really caught my eye and I think is the most comprehensive and thought-out is that of the Warhammer Players Society, currently used in the Swedish tournament scene: http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

Erie Ed
26-04-2009, 16:15
people whining about those restrictions are probably mor into 2*6 flamers, BT4*fleshhounds, 3*10 horrors than most...


It's funny that you say that because I won't even touch Daemons because they are so broke...I believe that a game should be played how it's meant to be played, not all these restrictions. Also people QQing about the power level of armies...it's sad really just adapt and over come.

Lordy
26-04-2009, 16:48
I like the different point levels for armies, not too keen on all the other changes though, although i wouldn't like to face 2 dark elf Hydra's!

Kongen
26-04-2009, 18:56
I play with these restrictions all the time.. They are quite balanced, and a lot more fun!
Heck, i'd even say that its a tactical game now with the restrictions.

Everyone should try them out, they aren't as bad as you would think. All you have to do now, is to think when you play. Compared to the game without the restrictions...

Ertle
26-04-2009, 19:20
It's funny that you say that because I won't even touch Daemons because they are so broke...I believe that a game should be played how it's meant to be played, not all these restrictions. Also people QQing about the power level of armies...it's sad really just adapt and over come.

Gonna have to agree with this post.

The only thought that goes into the game with these restrictions is army building. Without any restrictions trying to beat "top tier" armies has a a certain finesse to it. Also whats the point trying to beat something when its weaker than what it can be? Give me a gunline rather than a gimped army to face anyday.

RaZeR
26-04-2009, 19:23
On a side note, the system that really caught my eye and I think is the most comprehensive and thought-out is that of the Warhammer Players Society, currently used in the Swedish tournament scene: http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

I was bored so checked my WoC army against this. Think I ended up with 3518, which seems pretty decent (soft, still competitive) :)
Seems like a good way of working out comp scores as well

Gaargod
26-04-2009, 19:34
I don't get it. They have massive restrictions on most things, but gunlines still work really well?

3 units of 15 handgunners/ RBX guys, as many warmachines as you can pack in (especially Dwarfs, with an anvil), a couple of combat units for points and its all good?


Oh, and 2500pts of Ogres is actually probably going to do quite well with these restrictions. All the many many ironguts :D

ICLRK625
26-04-2009, 19:45
I don't get it. They have massive restrictions on most things, but gunlines still work really well?

3 units of 15 handgunners/ RBX guys, as many warmachines as you can pack in (especially Dwarfs, with an anvil), a couple of combat units for points and its all good?


Oh, and 2500pts of Ogres is actually probably going to do quite well with these restrictions. All the many many ironguts :D

I think Ogres may actually have the upper hand in this tournament, but a gunline may be the spoiler for that.

kramplarv
26-04-2009, 20:04
I was bored so checked my WoC army against this. Think I ended up with 3518, which seems pretty decent (soft, still competitive) :)
Seems like a good way of working out comp scores as well


which should be divided by 200 to workout your compscore. 17,5 i estimate,
1 is "awful disgusting bad." 20+ is "nice" and 15 is "standard". :)

selone
26-04-2009, 20:10
This topic has been debated before suffice to say I think a lot of people wouldn't mind some idea of a composition score/settign but this goes one step a little too far.

Quetzl
26-04-2009, 20:19
Yeah these are the ETC restrictions. I'm gonna be honest and say that they actually work in practise, and I'm all for em'.

Only thing you've got to remember is that this is built for team on team action. i.e. 8 German players will play 8 British players and they'll both have a captain. It's a different type of tournament entirely and demands a seriously different way of playing, people set out to play for a draw for example and if one of the big hitting players is losing the rest of the team will be pushed to win.

So yeah it's restrictive, but because it's not like anything you've ever expierence before.

dingareth
26-04-2009, 20:24
Threw together a list last night, planning on using my marching Dwarves, so none of the restrictions really mattered at all. I hope it'll go well, and that people don't make too big of a fuss about the restrictions. It should be interesting to see what people come up with.

Out of curiosity, what ETS stand for...?

Lord Inquisitor
26-04-2009, 20:53
I've seen these restrictions before, indeed, I've been thinking about going to a tournie that uses them and I don't like 'em. Yeah, I play daemons but hear me out. I've been playing pure Slaanesh daemons since Hordes of Chaos (when pure Daemons sucked). My army with the new rules is nasty, no doubt, but lacking any of the units of the other three gods limits me somewhat (no antimagic, no shooting, no fliers, etc,). As such it is a themed list, albeit a powerful one.

Now these restrictions put me 250-500 points down against anything but daemons and undead (against whom my anti-Ld army is at a severe disadvantage). Plus a heap of restrictions on my units, meaning my pure daemonette/seeker army is illegal.

So do you know what the upshot of these restrictions is? Not only is my regular army illegal but I'm 250-500 points down -- meaning that I feel I must take the most competitive units in the list in order to break even.

End result? I'm going to go buy me some flesh hounds and flamers. Gee, those restrictions really stopped me from have a cheesy daemon army. :rolleyes:

Erie Ed
26-04-2009, 21:02
Gonna have to agree with this post.

The only thought that goes into the game with these restrictions is army building. Without any restrictions trying to beat "top tier" armies has a a certain finesse to it. Also whats the point trying to beat something when its weaker than what it can be? Give me a gunline rather than a gimped army to face anyday.

Thank you I knew I wasn't the only person out there who feels this way. If you're going to play a game you might as well have a challenge.

lakissov
26-04-2009, 21:06
I was bored so checked my WoC army against this. Think I ended up with 3518, which seems pretty decent (soft, still competitive) :)
Seems like a good way of working out comp scores as well

I also did it, and got 2250 or so with the dark elf army I have recently started using - an army that is intentionally gimped, to give me more challenge!

(for reference, it has no lords, no hydrae, no BG, only one unit of 7 shades (being the only special unit in the whole list), two big blocks of warriors and a unit of corsairs, only two units of DR and two of harpies; oh, yes, it's of course also an extra-cheesy list because it has two assassins - but, well, you know, those are the only things in the list that actually can kill stuff; and then, with this system, I get 2250 points - this is really strange for a soft list)

so, i'd say, this Swedish system is really not good - I much rather prefer ETC restrictions. and to the ETC restriction system I prefer simply playing 1999 points - this cuts off most of the cheese. and if one also adds some scenarios to the tourney instead of the usual pitched battle, then the game becomes even more about tactics.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-04-2009, 21:57
If you really are going to play this way, I would just take Karl Franz on a dragon, then a warrior preist, allowing me to take Flagellants, a second rare unit.

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

BUt special characters are banned!


That all looks like a well thought out way to correct imbalance in army books. It was obviously put together by a player with a lot of experience trying to make the game tournament more fair for all players.

Unfortunately, some crafty player will be able to search through the army books and figure out how to make a powerful army within the restrictions.

I applaud the effort that went into this.

As do I. I would play in this tourney and would no doubt have a good time since tactics will for the most part trump power lists in this enviroment. But yeah someone will figure out a way to create a powergammer lists despite the restrictions.

BattleofLund
26-04-2009, 22:04
I also did it, and got 2250 or so with the dark elf army I have recently started using - an army that is intentionally gimped, to give me more challenge!

(for reference, it has no lords, no hydrae, no BG, only one unit of 7 shades (being the only special unit in the whole list), two big blocks of warriors and a unit of corsairs, only two units of DR and two of harpies; oh, yes, it's of course also an extra-cheesy list because it has two assassins - but, well, you know, those are the only things in the list that actually can kill stuff; and then, with this system, I get 2250 points - this is really strange for a soft list)

so, i'd say, this Swedish system is really not good - I much rather prefer ETC restrictions. and to the ETC restriction system I prefer simply playing 1999 points - this cuts off most of the cheese. and if one also adds some scenarios to the tourney instead of the usual pitched battle, then the game becomes even more about tactics.

Two big blocks of Warriors (25?) plus a unit of Corsairs (20?) should give you 1200 pts, to be added to your base score of 3000. 'No Lord' balances out multiple DR and Harpy units. 2nd Assassin sets you back 300 - but somehow you end up with 2,250, so probably you pay those 1,650 comp points from Magic users, certain Magic Items (Pendant of Khaeleth, Ring of Hotek etc) and/or multiple Bolt Throwers.

This Swedish system really is good - in my opinion. Had a blast playing a tournament over the Easter holiday, facing armies that weren't packed with the 'ultimatest combos'.

My list had no Lord, two Masters, one Sorceress, one Assassin (ToD, BL, HoK), three big units of Spearmen, two Dark Rider units, one Harpy unit, one Chariot, one unit of six Shades, one Reaper and one Hydra. Comp score: 4150.

What you've got to keep in mind is that you will be facing equally soft armies - your Über Unit of Doom won't be needed to counter the Drakenhof Death Star or the Empire Panzer Brigade.

BattleofLund
26-04-2009, 22:07
As do I. I would play in this tourney and would no doubt have a good time since tactics will for the most part trump power lists in this enviroment. But yeah someone will figure out a way to create a powergammer lists despite the restrictions.

I'm trying: my plans revolve around an even hundred Dark Elf Spearmen, so you should all be very afraid!

(sorry about the double post)

kramplarv
26-04-2009, 22:37
End result? I'm going to go buy me some flesh hounds and flamers. Gee, those restrictions really stopped me from have a cheesy daemon army. :rolleyes:


then you have to consider that those restrictions are created to get rid of stupid DoClists like,, 3*10 horrors, 2*6 flamers, BT and 3*5 fleshhounds.


to make an omelet you have to break some eggs... And themed lists are mostly hurt by those retrictions, which is fine since the tournament using them do not attract themed lists.

neXus6
26-04-2009, 23:03
Dark Elves getting an extra 250pts on Vampires and Daemons is a bad joke right?
Going by results there is no way that should be the case.

I'm yet to see a system that actually seems any more balancing than whoever designed the system nerfing anything they don't like.
The Tourney doesn't attract themed lists because of the silly restrictions, any tourney can attract themed lists.

This system does nothing but make Daemon and Vampire players, the real ones not the WAAC ones have to turn their armies into WAAC just to compete.

As for the swedish system, my Tomb Kings army came in at 500/200...thats 2.5 which is apparantly "uber cheese"...when was the last time you saw TKs win ANYTHING. :rolleyes:

kramplarv
26-04-2009, 23:30
well, just last year or this year, one of the major tournaments in sweden were won by TK.

what people not used to the WPS-system(or other restrictions) fails to see is what the reference of "good" and "bad" army is. In sweden where almost all torunaments are played with comp it is very rare to see armies with 10+ PD, or 4*6 fleshounds or other nastyness.

Most of the armies I've seen posted on armysection of warseer are uberrockhard-owneverything-armies. because I compare to what i'm normally play against.
Which is not 18+PD and kairos.

Enough ranting. It is a pure objective observetaion that countries where composition scores are used alot, the armies are softer overall even in tournaments without comp-score.

And btw.. The ETC (european championship) does not attract themed lists. When you are gaming with teams and such, lists are made to be as effective as possible. Hence the restrictions because some armies are better by default.

trägårdstomte
26-04-2009, 23:33
TK also won the Australian natcon check out Vauls at Thewarhammerforum.

happy_doctor
27-04-2009, 00:02
Tomb Kings are far from weak. They always were a difficult army to get the hang of, they are now even more so. But in a reasonably restricted environment (where magic defense is restricted as well), their reliable magic can produce great results.

That being said, they take skill to use correctly. I've just started using them after a few years and every game I play, I learn something new about their abilities.

Back on topic, an army composition system as comprehensive as that of WPS is not only good for tournament list "screening", but as a means of verifying the power level of your army. I've met quite a few people that didn't perceive how hard their lists were and how miserable they made their opponent by playing it.

Well, if your list gets a score of 10 or less (or, god forbid, less than 0!!), then let's say that your victories are not signs of great generalship...

Pathosis
27-04-2009, 02:20
You think these restrictions are rough? I signed up for a local tourney prior to the release of their "rules". It's more like chess than Warhammer, now.

Tier 1

Starting comp 4/10

VC, DE

Tier 2

Starting comp 5/10

WE, Brets


Tier 3

Starting comp 6/10

TK, HE, Emp, Lizards, WoC, Rats

Tier 4

Starting comp 7/10

Chaos Dorfs, O&C, Dorfs, Dogs


Tier 5

Starting comp 8/10

BoC, Ogres

---

Basically, sever composition hit for most armies. THEN the fun begins, as each army has seperate restrictions:

Orcs & Goblins

* No more than 6 fanatics
* 3 war machines are to be expected, 4 in a goblin army.
* Multiples of the same rare and specials acceptable in O&G.
* Banners should exist where possible.
* Concessions may include any of the following – No Wyvern, vanilla Goblins, vanilla Boar Boyz, little to no War Machines or magic, no shagga’s.

Lizardmen

* Any combo on Slann is fine but if you take focused rumination then you wouldn’t expect any other spell casters or bound items.
* More than 3 skink skirmisher units should be avoided.
* No more than 2 units of Terradons.
* Two Stegadons (including character mounts) are acceptable depending on what else is in the list (i.e. level of power dice, number of skirmishers etc).
* Banners should exist in appropriate units where possible (no points denial).
* No duplication of rares (including character mounts).
* Concessions may include any of the following – No doubling up of specials, one or less Stegadons, large investment of core troops, no BSB.

Vampire Counts

* 7-8 power dice (including bounds) are expected. +1 to cast for lord level .characters counts as 1 power dice. +1 to cast for hero level characters counts as 0.5 power dice. Periapt counts as 1 power dice.
* Double rare choice should be avoided unless taking Coach / Blood knights.
* Wraiths / Banshee units greater than 4 may be penalised.
* Helm of Commandment should only appear on a hero level character, but magic levels should not be maxed out if this item is taken.
* Drakenhof Banner should only exist if massive concessions have been made to the magic phase (i.e. less than 5 power dice).
* Zombie Dragon should only exist if massive concessions have been made to the magic phase (i.e. less than 5 power dice).
* Minimal points spent on true core with the intent to invocation spam them to a larger size will likely result in a composition hit.
* Black Knight death star with maxed magic and / or Drakenhof will likely receive a severe composition hit.
* Concessions may include any of the following – Zombie units in place of Skeletons / Ghouls, 6 or less power dice, no + to raise bloodline powers, no typical common magic items.

Empire

* Whatever character selection is usually fine, although avoid going overboard with magic and keep total power dice (including bounds and prayer) to about 8. E.g. War Altar and 2 Wizards with Rod of Power is OTT and would result in a resubmit.
* Generally no more than 3 war machines and approx 30 STR4 missile shots.
* War Altar and Steam Tank is likely to result in a resubmit.
* Banners should exist in appropriate units where possible (no points denial).
* Concessions may include any of the following - any lord choice other than Arch lector or general on Griffon, no Altar AND no Steam Tank, Halberdiers or spears instead of swordsmen, max 2 war machines without double cannons, no double rare, multiple block units of core (excluding flagellants).

Ogres

* Maxed out shooting (lots of Lead belchers, Man-eaters) and / or 3 butchers could score a negative.
* More than 3 Rhinox Riders in the army may result in a hit.
* Banners should exist in appropriate units where possible (no points denial).
* Concessions may include any of the following – no Butchers, non MSU builds, no man-eaters.

Tomb Kings

* Generally whatever character mix is fine, although three priests can make for an OTT magic phase and should be avoided (especially with jar or other bounds).
* Generally no more than 2 Scorpions should be taken.
* No more than 50 bow shots.
* Dual Bone Giants are fine but two skull catapults will result in a significant hit.
* Concessions may include any of the following – No Scorpions, no Catapults, Icon Bearer, less than 4 characters.

Wood Elves

* Any mix of characters is generally ok (a ‘typical’ choice of wood elf characters would be ancient with netlings, caddy, alter and a BSB). Should try to avoid taking more than 6 - 8 power dice (including bound tree singings or sprites).
* Generally no more than 30 shooting troops (excluding Glade Riders) or 3 units of Dryads (except in a forest spirit themed army). Less shooting than this should be taken if fielding a dragon.
* Try to avoid taking more than 2 of each special choice (excluding Warhawk Riders or Eternal Guard).
* Two Treemen or Treeman and Dragon will likely be a resubmit.
* Banners should exist in appropriate units where possible (no points denial).
* Concessions may include any of the following – No BSB when taking a Treeman, 10 glade guard or less, lack of Hail of Doom Arrow.

Dark Elves

* Up to around 55 shots (RBTs count as 6 each, repeater crossbows 2 each) is acceptable.
* Up to 7-8 power dice (including bounds but excluding bonus dice from default spell) is acceptable. Sacrificial Dagger counts as 2 power dice. Maxing out on both magic and shooting will result in a composition hit.
* More than 1 terror causer will likely score a composition hit.
* Avoid fielding too many of the usual toys (eg reverse ward, ring of Hotek, sacrificial dagger, ASF black guard, 2 RBTs, hydra etc).
* Banners should exist in appropriate units where possible (no points denial).
* Cauldron with Hydra and / or Black Guard may provide a composition hit.
* Concessions may include any of the following – no Hydra, less than 2 bolt throwers, no black guard, no harpies, usual toys (Reverse Ward, Ring of Hotek, Focus Familiar, Sacrificial Dagger, ASF banner) left at home.

Bretonnians

* Four lances (Errant’s, KoTR, Grails and Questing) are acceptable, with any more likely being a comp hit.
* At least one unit of Men at arms, or peasant bowmen per unit of Knights.
* Any more than one Pegasus Knight unit will be a composition hit or a resubmit for most lists.
* Generally any character set up is fine, although taking too many flying characters could have a negative effect on comp (i.e. Hippogriff and several Pegasus riders etc).
* Concessions may include any of the following – No fliers, more peasant units than knights, Characters on foot, less than 4 characters, Questing Knights.

High elves

* Nine power dice limit should not be exceeded (including banner of sorcery counting as 2 and bound rings as 1). Maxing out magic and shooting will likely result in negative composition.
* Star Dragon lists will get a negative unless list is really restricted in other areas (e.g. minimal magic and / or shooting, lots of infantry etc). Moon dragons may also result in a hit but less significant than the Star Dragon. Sun dragons / dragon mages are fine as long as magic limitations are followed.
* Multiple MSU units of Dragon Princes should generally be avoided, as should taking more than two chariots.
* No more than 2 Bolt Throwers.
* Taking both magical bows may result in a composition hit.
* Concessions may include any of the following – More than 2 core units, fewer rare choices (i.e. less than 2 bolt throwers and / or less than 2 eagles), 4 power dice or less.

Warriors of Chaos

· No more than 2 units of knights.
· Twin Hell cannons will generally result in a negative composition score.
· A Dragon led list will need to make some notable sacrifices in other areas of the army (e.g. limit magic, take multiple ranked units, limit number of knights and marauder cavalry).
· Level 3 or 4 TZ sorcerer, and puppet will likely result in a hit.
· Multiple level 1 Nurgle magic spam will likely receive a hit (i.e. 3 x level 1 Nurgle Wizards).
· Take more than minimum core troops.
· Concessions may include any of the following – Three or more ranked infantry units, no Knights, no multiple rares (excluding spawns), no Sorcerer Lord marked with Tzeentch, no puppet.

Skaven

* A maximum of 2 Ratling Guns and up to 3 weapon teams in total
* Number of Jezzails should not exceed 8 - 10 unless notable concessions in other areas of the list.
* Total power dice should not exceed 8 (including storm daemon and those from screaming bell). Generally a Seer and Warlock engineer, or 2 warlock engineers (with or without storm daemon) is acceptable, although maximum magic and shooting may result in a negative composition score.
* Standards on Clanrat units are expected.
* 2 Warp lightning Cannons, backed with other Skyre special choices will generally be a resubmit.
* Concessions may include any of the following – No Storm Daemon, inclusion of giant rats or Rat Ogres, inclusion of a Master Moulder or Chieftain (non BSB), no weapon teams or using Warp fire throwers instead of Ratling Guns.

Beasts of Chaos

* Power dice should not exceed 8 (including bonus dice from Tzeentch mark).
* A maximum of 3 chariots should be taken to avoid negative composition scores.
* Concessions may include any of the following – 6 or less power dice, 4+ herds.

Daemons of chaos

* A Greater Daemon will generally result in a negative comp score unless the list is noticeably weak in other areas (e.g. no BSB, little to no magic defence etc). A Bloodthirster with rerolls to hit will result in a negative composition score.
* Flamers should not exceed 4 models.
* Multiple units of Flesh Hounds will also result in a negative comp score unless the list has noticeable weaknesses in other areas.
* No more than 1 Siren Song should exist in a standard army
* Three or four ranked units with full commands will generally be regarded favourably.
* Concessions may include any of the following – Two or fewer characters (not including Greater Daemons), no rares, single chaos mark, no BSB, no magic banners, unit sizes 20+.

Dwarves

* Avoid taking too much of a gun line. So no more than around 4 war machines or 30 shooting troops. I.e. 2 - 3 units of Thunderers / Crossbowmen, 2 Bolt Throwers, a Grudge Thrower and an Organ Gun is about standard.
* Keep dispel dice to a respectable amount (5 – 7 with 2 scrolls max).
* Twin Organ Guns should be avoided.
* While not a comp hit by itself, the inclusion of an anvil may result in a negative comp score if combined with a lot of shooting and immoveable blocks of infantry
* Concessions may include any of the following – Lack of runes on characters and war machines, lack of engineers, fewer than average war machines.



Chaos Dwarves

* Twin Earth shakers should be avoided and may result in a resubmit, as it will make for an unenjoyable game for just about any opponent.
* Avoid taking too many Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers (2 - 3 is acceptable). Around four total war machines may be acceptable including bolt throwers, death rockets and earth shaker.
* Avoid fielding ridiculous amounts of MSU hobgoblin units.
* Concessions may include any of the following – Minimal magic, no Taurus, no Earth shaker.

Dogs of War

* Up to 25 - 30 missile troops (including Crossbowmen and Man-eaters) with 2 - 3 units of Duellists is acceptable. Any more may result in negative comp, especially if combined with high magic and / or multiple units of MSU knights.
* No more than 3 war machines.
* Asarnil backed up with 8+ power dice will likely result in a composition hit.

---

I feel so bad for Bret players, and I play TK. No more than 4 lances? Wow.

((Linky - http://www.vagabonds.com.au/?page_id=27 - Just to show I'm not making this up, trust me, I'm not creative enough.))

lakissov
27-04-2009, 07:43
Two big blocks of Warriors (25?) plus a unit of Corsairs (20?) should give you 1200 pts, to be added to your base score of 3000. 'No Lord' balances out multiple DR and Harpy units. 2nd Assassin sets you back 300 - but somehow you end up with 2,250, so probably you pay those 1,650 comp points from Magic users, certain Magic Items (Pendant of Khaeleth, Ring of Hotek etc) and/or multiple Bolt Throwers.

Here is the list (1999 points)
Master (general) with GW, no mount, Armour of darkness and Ring
Caddy
Assassin with ahw, Rune of Khaine, Touch of death and black lotus
Assassin with ahw, manbane and throwing stars
20 warriors with FC and warbanner
20 warriors with FC and banner of cold blood
10 corsairs with frenzy banner
2 x 5 DR with musicians and rxb
2 x 10 Crossbows with shields
2 x 5 harpies
7 shades
2 RBT

Is this really viewed as a cheesy list in Sweden???

Avian
27-04-2009, 08:17
You think these restrictions are rough? I signed up for a local tourney prior to the release of their "rules". It's more like chess than Warhammer, now.
That doesn't seem in any way unreasonable to me, though of course it depends on how they are enforced.

Not sure why you have a problem with that.:confused:

Nicha11
27-04-2009, 08:39
Ok this is my opinion:

Screw these restrictions! Just because you believe a unit or item is overpowered you just nerf it!
Are you a games designer?


The rules are the rules, and you can change them however you want between you and your friends.
But at a tournament to lay around with your nerf bat on the small chance you might hit some cheese is just plain stupid.

If people are this worried about army composition and the dreaded cheese:o
Then maybe they should be playing chess.

slingersam
27-04-2009, 09:47
What does that even mean? An anchient already takes a lord and a rare choice, what else do they want?

You can't take two of the same rare choices. So if it counts as a treeman you can't take another

W0lf
27-04-2009, 09:53
To be fair just ban;

Daemons
Vampires -> Helm, Drakenhof >12 PD
Dark Elves -> More then one character in shades, dual hydra, Ring

Job done.

Ultimate Life Form
27-04-2009, 10:12
That doesn't seem in any way unreasonable to me, though of course it depends on how they are enforced.

Not sure why you have a problem with that.:confused:

Oh, come on lil Birdie. Have you actually read these restrictions? That they don´t present you with a pre-made army list is all.

happy_doctor
27-04-2009, 10:16
Pathosis, I quite like the suggestions made in the rulespack you posted. It means that the tournament organisers are making an effort to provide the players some good games with interesting armies, rather than allowing them to fall prey to some random WANCer with maxed out Daemons of Chaos (or any other maxed out army, to be fair).

As for the bretonnian comment, they mention that more than 4 lances will be taking a comp hit, something I think is fair. No one said you couldn't bring 6 of them, but don't expect your army to be deemed "soft" by doing so. On a side note, the resident bretonnian player in my group uses "only" 4 lances and wins quite consistenly. You'd be impressed by how good the other bretonnian choices can be in able hands (fast cavalry, trebuchet, cheap ranked infantry, etc..)

EDIT: reading Ultimate Life Form's comment above got me thinking...how restrictive are those guidelines? Thus, I present you with 3 of my regular armies, all of which are neither "common" builds, nor will they be penalised by the tournament rules.

High Elves - Pride of Chrace

Prince on Griffon, Nullstone, DA, Shield, Great Axe
Noble, BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, DA, Shield, Great Axe
2x20 Spearelves, Full Command
2x14 White Lions, Full Command (Lion standard, Amulet of Light/Standard of Balance, Skeinsliver)
2x Lion Chariot
6 Shadow Warriors, champion
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
2x Great Eagle

Skaven - Moulder army

Grey Seer, Dispel Scroll, Warpstone Charm
Chieftain, BSB, Storm Banner
2x Master Moulder, GW, LA (Skavenbrew/Warpstone Amulet)
2x30 Clanrats, Full Command
2x25 Slaves, musician
2x3 Giant Rat Packs
25 Stormvermin, shields, Full Command, War Banner
2 Rat Swarms
2x4 Rat Ogres
DoW Giant (Rat Giant)

Empire - Knightly Order

Grand Master, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Power, Holy Relic
Captain, BSB, Steed, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Sword of Might
Captain, Pegasus, FPA, Shield, Sword of Fate
Captain, Pegasus, FPA, Shield, Wyrmslayer Sword, Aldred's Casket of Sorcery
3x5 Knights, musician
10 Crossbowmen
2x6 Knights of the Inner Circle, Full Command (War Banner/Arcane Warding)
2x20 Greatswords, Full Command, (10 Halberds and 10 swordsmen as detachments each)

So, all in all, 3 lists that are far from pre-made...What they ARE NOT is "tournament optimised min-maxed win at all cost lists".
If that's what you need to have fun playing the game, then I'm afraid we're not on the same page here; telling a Skaven player that he cannot bring his SAD list is more taking away ONE list than handing him a pre-made army.

kramplarv
27-04-2009, 10:44
Here is the list (1999 points)
Master (general) with GW, no mount, Armour of darkness and Ring
Caddy
Assassin with ahw, Rune of Khaine, Touch of death and black lotus
Assassin with ahw, manbane and throwing stars
20 warriors with FC and warbanner
20 warriors with FC and banner of cold blood
10 corsairs with frenzy banner
2 x 5 DR with musicians and rxb
2 x 10 Crossbows with shields
2 x 5 harpies
7 shades
2 RBT

Is this really viewed as a cheesy list in Sweden???


This should be somewhere beween 14,7 and 16 in the swedish system Depending on the exact cost of your Spearmen/Corsairs.15 is "standard hardcoreness". So it's not cheese. "Cheese" are 9 and below.

BattleofLund
27-04-2009, 12:43
Here is the list (1999 points)
Master (general) with GW, no mount, Armour of darkness and Ring
Caddy
Assassin with ahw, Rune of Khaine, Touch of death and black lotus
Assassin with ahw, manbane and throwing stars
20 warriors with FC and warbanner
20 warriors with FC and banner of cold blood
10 corsairs with frenzy banner
2 x 5 DR with musicians and rxb
2 x 10 Crossbows with shields
2 x 5 harpies
7 shades
2 RBT

Is this really viewed as a cheesy list in Sweden???

Ah. Mine was calculated on 2,250, that clarifies things. I get about 2700=13.5(counted on the April 'beta' version of the comp template) for your list, mainly because of the (very efficient) Assassin equipment and the four support unit twins. Funny thing is that the big hit the Ring of Hotek takes is largely made unjustified by the comp template's lessening of magic across the board; the One Ring is simply not that good when your opponent has a lvl2 and a bound item (for example).


This should be somewhere beween 14,7 and 16 in the swedish system Depending on the exact cost of your Spearmen/Corsairs.15 is "standard hardcoreness". So it's not cheese. "Cheese" are 9 and below.

I wouldn't call it cheese either... but then I have few units that need fear the BaneStars or the Bad Touch. Your 86 24"+ shots a turn might worry me, though...

Dungeon_Lawyer
27-04-2009, 16:40
Ok this is my opinion:

Screw these restrictions! Just because you believe a unit or item is overpowered you just nerf it!
Are you a games designer?


The rules are the rules, and you can change them however you want between you and your friends.
But at a tournament to lay around with your nerf bat on the small chance you might hit some cheese is just plain stupid.

If people are this worried about army composition and the dreaded cheese:o
Then maybe they should be playing chess.


I have to respectfully disagree- the 'are you a games designer" arguement holds no water for me. Many many aspects of certain armies in fantasy are flat-out broken & these tournies with restrictions are expressions of gamers ire.

No one is forcing anyone to play in these tournies-If you dont like the restrictions you have an option-you dont have to play.

Erie Ed
27-04-2009, 17:20
Gonna have to agree with this post.

The only thought that goes into the game with these restrictions is army building. Without any restrictions trying to beat "top tier" armies has a a certain finesse to it. Also whats the point trying to beat something when its weaker than what it can be? Give me a gunline rather than a gimped army to face anyday.


Ok this is my opinion:

Screw these restrictions! Just because you believe a unit or item is overpowered you just nerf it!
Are you a games designer?


The rules are the rules, and you can change them however you want between you and your friends.
But at a tournament to lay around with your nerf bat on the small chance you might hit some cheese is just plain stupid.

If people are this worried about army composition and the dreaded cheese:o
Then maybe they should be playing chess.

very well put

rtunian
27-04-2009, 18:19
if the armies were balanced, there wouldn't need to be composition factors.

imo, the ones who are up in arms over reasonable comp limitations (key word: reasonable) are in denial that their broken lists are actually broken. the purpose of comp should be to balance the playing field. yes, this might seem infringing for those who bear "broken" lists, but as said many times by many others, if you don't like the rules of the tourney, don't enter.

the point of a tournament should not be to discover which is the best list.
the point of a tournament should be to discover who is the best general.

obviously, neither point is attainable in a practical sense, given the limited entry and the massive influence of luck in the game; still, organizers should strive for the latter, and not the former

again, if the game was balanced, there would be no need for comp. alas, it's not.

anyway, in this particular case, i think they are going a bit overboard.

BigBossOgryn
29-04-2009, 12:03
This whole subject is very much precarious ground because of a number of factors:

As mentioned already by the previous poster; if armies were in fact balanced in the first place then there would be no need for people to enforce their own balance. That said, this splits into two points:

A. Armies in their design stage are tested by people who play the game constantly, therefore boredom and complacency sets in eventually and because they are the last line between design and us, if they miss power combos and opportunities for abuse then you can guarantee someone will spot them and exploit them.

B. Games Workshop want you to buy models. Power creep or whatever you want to call it is simple business logic: make a better product and watch it sell better than your last release. DoC may be a classic example of this, but then all but two units are metal which equals more monies whereas WoC are not as good but then they have more plastic kits (with hopefully more on the way, fingers crossed).

I think the notion of enforcing balance be it limitations or comp(osition?) score is a good one. I can see both sides of the argument; for and against but I think ultimately, one should try it before they dismiss it a heresy. I have two Hellcannons, but I don't lament not being able to use them in a limited tournament. I think the problem is people see these tournaments as saying: 'throw your multiple Rares and Specials in the bin!' but the message is actually: 'try this other way of playing for a handful of games'. That's all. Five or six games out of the hundreds or thousands you will ever play and you may enjoy it.

As for the division this causes among players; again I think people need to be a bit more understanding. The people that don't like the restrictions could not like them for a number of reasons, not because they are all evil WAAC power players. Some people may have built their army around a theme that these tournaments render unusable, some people may only just have enough models to play and don't really want to go and invest more money on figures they may not like or need ever again. Yes, there are some people who for reasons known only to them and their therapist, that feel they must decimate all opposition mercilessly and brutally in a game of toy soldiers who will want to use the power build and nothing else, but then I can tell you from personal experience that these people are few and far between.

The people that like the concept of restriction are not all rubbish gamers who can't win anything unless odds are stacked in their favour. Hell, I'm useless at WFB (more of 40k player than anything) but I still like the idea of restricted and unrestricted the same. It's just different tastes really, perhaps they have encountered too many problem players in official tournaments, maybe they play the lower tier armies faithfully win or lose or maybe they are just bored of the run of the mill style tournament games.

Bottom line: play the game how you want to but don't begrudge other people playing the game how they enjoy it or they feel it should be played. Remember, you are not being forced to play their way or in their tournaments. These restrictive tournaments are just people trying to make the game more interesting for themselves and others. Fair play to them.