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MarshallSam
26-04-2009, 18:36
So I was thinking are there only 20 types of geneseed relating to the 20 Primarchs? If they wanted to (I know they wouldn't what with it being so valuable and all) could could the Imperial Fist or even the Black Templars give the Crimson Fists some geneseed to help them get back on their feet faster? In the story of the Red Corsairs in the BRB, if the Astral Claws and the fotress they raided were from the same Primarch could that geneseed be compatiable with their own?

Zahr Dalsk
26-04-2009, 18:41
Certainly they could, though the ones with the other chapter's gene-seed would be biologically different from their own battle-brothers. But SM are proud pricks, and wouldn't take another Chapter's gene-seed.

Aside: Why is it that whenever I read or hear "gene-seed" I immediately think, "Yeah, that sounds like semen?"

Lord_Crull
26-04-2009, 18:47
Yes, in Storm of Iron the Iron warriors grab some geneseed from the Imperium, but they are Chaos marines in short supply so I don't know if that counts.

MarshallSam
26-04-2009, 19:01
Certainly they could, though the ones with the other chapter's gene-seed would be biologically different from their own battle-brothers. But SM are proud pricks, and wouldn't take another Chapter's gene-seed.

Aside: Why is it that whenever I read or hear "gene-seed" I immediately think, "Yeah, that sounds like semen?"

But why are they biologically different if their gene seed is from Rogal Dorn. Each of the legions was based off of a template of one of the primarchs, so shouldn't each legion be biologically the same? And yeah everytime I hear geneseed I too think it sounds semen.

Talos
26-04-2009, 19:24
I also think each legion should be biologically the same but that does not seem to be the case. As we can see some chapters dont have certain organs and then there are whole foundings which get mutated.
Also the Iron Warriors managed to steal around 1/2 of the Imperiums geneseed.

Zahr Dalsk
26-04-2009, 20:19
But why are they biologically different if their gene seed is from Rogal Dorn.

Oh, right, so they are.

Yeah, I suppose that in that case they would be able to. Only pride would stop them then.

Inquisitor Engel
26-04-2009, 21:17
Gene-seed alters over time thanks to environmental factors, extraction and preservation techniques, just like your cells are altered over time, by radiation, breakdown and such - there's even little bits of DNA that fall off as you get older. (Dolly the sheep, when born, had cells just as old as the sheep she was cloned from)

Gene seed changes just as chromosomes do. It's why humanity is generally taller now, but why we have jack **** for an immune system compared to even our grandparents.

The Crimson Fist gene seed is now different from the Imperial Fist gene seed.

Enkidu
26-04-2009, 21:33
Gene-seed alters over time thanks to environmental factors, extraction and preservation techniques, just like your cells are altered over time, by radiation, breakdown and such - there's even little bits of DNA that fall off as you get older. (Dolly the sheep, when born, had cells just as old as the sheep she was cloned from)

Gene seed changes just as chromosomes do. It's why humanity is generally taller now, but why we have jack **** for an immune system compared to even our grandparents.

The Crimson Fist gene seed is now different from the Imperial Fist gene seed.

This I imagine is why every chapter must submit geneseed for testing and such. And why chapters with their successors like the Blood Angels and co. are similar on a basic level but still so diverse. Their geneseed is known to be mutated and under scrutiny by the =I=.
Unlike say the Dark Angels who's successors are all very similar. They are known to have one of the most pure geneseeds.
The Ultramarines have a very pure geneseed too, but it is used so much that it is invariable that a few get messed up along the way.
Ex: DA has 20 successors, maybe 2 (10%) go bad (similar to the cursed founding).
Ex2: UM have 60 successors, now we have 6 chapters with some screwy defects. Its still the same %, but theres more, so we hear about it more often!
They only use their own geneseeds, and 'tend' not to mix and match as a matter of tradition, uniformity and quality control. "Quality over quantity."

Unlike Chaos, I really don't think they care enough to make sure everything comes from one location, they are free from such burdens as tradition and uniformity. They use whatever they can get. "Quantity has its own kind of quality."

Tynesh
26-04-2009, 22:31
The rate at which geneseed changes could also be tied to the methods by which a chapter recruits new members. By taking recruits from a large number of worlds (like the Dark Angels/Black Templars/Ultramarines do), and thus a vastly larger population of varied human genotypes, the geneseed that is more compatible with a larger proportion of the population will have a selective advantage and therefore become more predominant within a chapters geneseed stocks. A chapter, such as the Blood Angels or Space Wolves, who recruit from a single world will have geneseed that is more tied to the specific population of Baal and Fenris.

This would explain why some chapters are able to recruit more widely, while others such as the Crimson Fists could have problems since the attack on Rynn's World. If they have resided on the planet since the 2nd Founding (I can't remember if they have or not) then their geneseed may have compatibility problems with recruits drawn from other planets.

Cheers

Tynesh

cool0001
26-04-2009, 23:01
Chaos might also be limited on pride because in storm of iron Honslo (sp?) is refered to as "half blood"
and is revealed to have imperial fists gene-seed

Mannimarco
26-04-2009, 23:45
remember that geneseed can be mixed and matched, its how you create successor chapters isnt it?

mix ultramarine and DA and you get a relictor

or am i way off?

PondaNagura
27-04-2009, 00:51
yeah they probably grab organ-x from Um and then organ-y from CF, which can interact when the germ cells return to the progenoids to produce new zygotes...which will inherit some kind of twisted mix in the next generation.
this is assuming that the geneseeds are remotely compatible with each other in the recipient...like mix-matching different blood type organs.

Enkidu
27-04-2009, 00:54
remember that geneseed can be mixed and matched, its how you create successor chapters isnt it?

mix ultramarine and DA and you get a relictor

or am i way off?

It has been done a few times, but from what I know, its not exactly wide spread.
*Edit:* I should clarify better; as I recall; successor merely means it was founded from X original chapter (ie: Crimson fists are Imperial Fist successors), it doesn't matter if they use one or two geneseeds to create it, it would just be a successor of multiple chapters.*end Edit*

I think the ones that it was done on were most likely experiments to see how well it would work out more than anything else. I figure this is why they used UM and DA as they are both are free from mutation. The two geneseeds used would have to be very similar, else your chapter would be half and half and prolly lead to alot of crazy (if hilarious) results.

I mean, imagine if a chapter was founded on Blood Angels (or better yet Flesh Tearers) and Space Wolves!

... I smell a webcomic! Where are our artists!?

Urza
27-04-2009, 11:27
Mix ultramarine and DA and you get a Relictor

Ummm No. The Relictors are rumoured to have Geneseed from both the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, ie: 50% of the Chapter have UM Geneseed and 50% have DA Geneseed.

This is not the same as having hybrid Geneseed that has been created by blending UM & DA Geneseed together. AFAIK this technique is now beyond the technological skills of the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus, and would be viewed as heresy by many.

MarshallSam
27-04-2009, 11:38
[QUOTE=Urza;3514780]Ummm No. The Relictors are rumoured to have Geneseed from both the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, ie: 50% of the Chapter have UM Geneseed and 50% have DA Geneseed. [QUOTE]

So by this measure then a brother from 2nd company 3rd tactical squad would be biologically different from a brother from 9th company 6th devastator squad. And if that is the case then the apothecaries would need to keep track of which brother has which marine has which geneseed.

NightrawenII
27-04-2009, 20:45
Gene-seed can be mixed but it isnt a unsual practice.
So you can have Mucranoid from Imperial Fists and Belchers glands from Salamanders.

source: Rites of Initiation, Index Astartes

Urza
28-04-2009, 11:07
Ummm No. The Relictors are rumoured to have Geneseed from both the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines, ie: 50% of the Chapter have UM Geneseed and 50% have DA Geneseed.

So by this measure then a brother from 2nd company 3rd tactical squad would be biologically different from a brother from 9th company 6th devastator squad. And if that is the case then the apothecaries would need to keep track of which brother has which marine has which geneseed.

Yes, thats correct.

From Index Astartes: Relictors:


Geneseed
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels. If this is the case, then it would appear that the High Lords of Terra's reluctance to sanction the use of Dark Angel's geneseed in the creation of new Chapters has relaxed somewhat.

Nothing there to indicate that the Geneseed is a hybridised version blended from UM and DA Geneseed. All it says it that the Chapter's Geneseed Stock is thought to have been grown from UM Stock and DA Stock.

However apart from the traits that a particular Marine would inherit from his Geneseed, it shouldn't make any difference, so why would an Apothecary need to keep track of which Relictor has what Geneseed?

Mannimarco
28-04-2009, 12:19
its wierd, i always saw these new founding chapters being a blend of the 2 geneseeds rather than marine A is an ultramarine, marine B is a dark angel, bothe wear relictor colours

MarshallSam
28-04-2009, 14:17
so why would an Apothecary need to keep track of which Relictor has what Geneseed?

So geneseed is basically interchangable? So hypothetically if the high lords wanted some bad@$$ insane marines to throw at chaos they could create a chapter made up from Sons of Antaeus/Black Dragons/Blood Angels/Space Wolves. All of which has mutation.

I am only asking this for my own fluff. My chapter is basically made up of the remnants of destroyed chapters and was wondering if geneseed was interchangeable enough to allow the chapter to flurish.

NightrawenII
28-04-2009, 14:55
So geneseed is basically interchangable? So hypothetically if the high lords wanted some bad@$$ insane marines to throw at chaos they could a chapter made up from Sons of Antaeus/Black Dragons/Blood Angels/Space Wolves. All of which has mutation.

I am only asking this for my own fluff. My chapter is basically made up of the remnants of destroyed chapters and was wondering if geneseed was interchangeable enough to allow the chapter to flurish.

Erm, the SM fight to the last.
And if there are enough survivors, then the Chapter continue in existence without merging with other Chapter or in the case of few survivors inducted into Deathwatch. Marines are proud and arogant bastards yaŽknow.

Brother Siccarius
28-04-2009, 15:24
So I was thinking are there only 20 types of geneseed relating to the 20 Primarchs? If they wanted to (I know they wouldn't what with it being so valuable and all) could could the Imperial Fist or even the Black Templars give the Crimson Fists some geneseed to help them get back on their feet faster? In the story of the Red Corsairs in the BRB, if the Astral Claws and the fotress they raided were from the same Primarch could that geneseed be compatiable with their own?

Just want to clear up, there's at least 26 different geneseed types since the 21st Founding. Since all the chapters from that founding were given either scratch made or heavily modified and changed geneseed.

MarshallSam
28-04-2009, 15:54
Just want to clear up, there's at least 26 different geneseed types since the 21st Founding. Since all the chapters from that founding were given either scratch made or heavily modified and changed geneseed.

Really?? Since the high lords don't usually use the traitor legion geneseed that's 15 new geneseed types since the 1st founding. Where did you hear this info?


Erm, the SM fight to the last.
And if there are enough survivors, then the Chapter continue in existence without merging with other Chapter or in the case of few survivors inducted into Deathwatch. Marines are proud and arogant bastards yaŽknow.

My fluff goes something along the lines that after vicious tyranid attacks several chapters were mostly destroyed those few surviving marines committed themselves to the deathwatch. While preparing for missions at [Insert Inq Fotress Name] the marines realized that there were quite a few of themselves, enough to almost make a battle company. Understanding that a strike force would be far more effective then kill teams in a large confilict they swore and oath to band together to combat the menace of the tyranids. They elected a council of veterans to lead them and stole a ship to start their crusade against the tyranids. The chapter consists of 1 under strength battle company (roughly 90 marines).

Urza
28-04-2009, 16:33
So geneseed is basically interchangable? So hypothetically if the high lords wanted some bad@$$ insane marines to throw at chaos they could create a chapter made up from Sons of Antaeus/Black Dragons/Blood Angels/Space Wolves. All of which has mutation.

I am only asking this for my own fluff. My chapter is basically made up of the remnants of destroyed chapters and was wondering if geneseed was interchangeable enough to allow the chapter to flurish.

Its certainly possible, although extremely unlikely. Usually when a new Chapter is created, their geneseed stock is taken from one source (ie Imperial Fists, or Blood Angels etc). However in the case of the Relictors, is was rumoured to be taken from two seperate sources.

The reason for this is unknown, it could have been a secret Inquisitorial mandate made by a Radical Daemonhunter who wanted a specific set of traits in the Relictors Chapter (the Relictors were originally called the Fire Claws, and were part of the Astartes Praeses Founding which was dedicated to protecting Imperial territories immediately surrounding the Eye of Terror), or it could have been something far more simple such as a lack of UM Geneseed Stock, and the rest of the Chapter being made up from the only available alternative, ie DA Geneseed.

MarshallSam
28-04-2009, 16:40
Ok so then fluff wise apothecaries in my army do make sense since they can recover the geneseed from the different marines and can start an actual chapter.

Brother Siccarius
28-04-2009, 17:37
Really?? Since the high lords don't usually use the traitor legion geneseed that's 15 new geneseed types since the 1st founding. Where did you hear this info?




I didn't say that the Imperium uses traitor geneseeds, just pointing out the number of geneseeds. Though the traitors still have their geneseed and the mechanicus still has samples of the traitor legion geneseed.

20 Primarchs, traitor, loyal, and unknown. Then the Cursed Founding, which produced at least 6 known new chapters with drastically different Geneseed from the other ones before.

The Cursed Founding was an attempt by certain officials (unknown exactly who the backer was) to improve the geneseeds and ultimately create a new primarch (Some mention was given that the backer was or might have been a Thorian). The Geneseeds produced created different mutations and various problems, such as: Flame Falcons (Mysterious Immolation at the height of battle, that didn't burn the wearer), the Sons of Anaetus (Metalic Bone Structure), the Black Dragons (Boney Barbs, crests, and blades), the Minotaurs (Enraged and uncontrolled in battle), the Fire Hawks (contracted Warp Virus and became the Legion of the Damned), Lamenters (Mistakenly sided with Huron in the Baddab Wars, repent mission sent them into Kraken accidentally, Terrible Luck). It was originally in a WD article, that then became a Chapter Approved article. It used to be up on the website until GW's recent site changes.

MarshallSam
28-04-2009, 17:59
The Cursed Founding was an attempt by certain officials (unknown exactly who the backer was) to improve the geneseeds and ultimately create a new primarch (Some mention was given that the backer was or might have been a Thorian). The Geneseeds produced created different mutations and various problems, such as: Flame Falcons (Mysterious Immolation at the height of battle, that didn't burn the wearer), the Sons of Anaetus (Metalic Bone Structure), the Black Dragons (Boney Barbs, crests, and blades), the Minotaurs (Enraged and uncontrolled in battle), the Fire Hawks (contracted Warp Virus and became the Legion of the Damned), Lamenters (Mistakenly sided with Huron in the Baddab Wars, repent mission sent them into Kraken accidentally, Terrible Luck). It was originally in a WD article, that then became a Chapter Approved article. It used to be up on the website until GW's recent site changes.


Was it in one of the Chapter Approved books? I remember the stories of the Cursed Founding but I didn't realized that created entirely new geneseed for it. I'll have to check on that when I get home.

Brother Siccarius
28-04-2009, 18:11
Was it in one of the Chapter Approved books? I remember the stories of the Cursed Founding but I didn't realized that created entirely new geneseed for it. I'll have to check on that when I get home.

The Chapter Approved list for the chapters created was in a Chapter Approved book. The Article explaining the processes used and the motives behind it was oringally in White Dwarf, then available on the GW website until the recent changes.

Not sure where you could get ahold of it now.
It wasn't so much entirely new geneseeds as it was a blending of different geneseeds and inducing mutation withing the zygoats to create new geneseeds