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Nicha11
27-04-2009, 08:10
What are the worst/least viable unit upgrades?

The worst IMO is MOK for a chaos warshrine.
30pts for 1! extra attack and my non combat support unit has to charge:wtf:

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 08:25
I've always thought of BoC Beasts of Nurgle to be pretty awful, mostly because MoS and MoT are so much better! Poisoned attacks on a Chaos Spawn for 15pts? That +25% of the unit cost.

I've got the same view on MoK, +1S for +25% unit cost? :eyebrows:

Standard bearers in Fast Cavalry units are a waste of ink at the GW printers. Who is going to spend valuable points on a banner which won't be used to maximum effect and is likely to give the enemy 100 VP for a captured standard? You'd hope no one.

Shields on Repeater Crossbowmen; if they get charged they won't be able to hold up with no ranks and a complete lack of offensive power. So why increase unit cost by 10% when they will still have no armour save to decent shooting and will still crumble in combat.

Avian
27-04-2009, 08:27
Chaos Warhounds: Increase the cost by 50% to give a non-combat unit poison.

Azethel
27-04-2009, 08:36
Chaos Warhounds: Increase the cost by 50% to give a non-combat unit poison.

Ill add light armour option for chaos hounds as well, though poison is far and away worse.

static grass
27-04-2009, 08:38
It's hard to underperform poisonous dogs but here goes....

Dwarf warriors - Great weapons.

Pay 2 points to get dwarves that die quickly and wont strike back.

Even if they were free they would still get very rarely used.

I think that fact indicates how bad that upgrade is.

Sherlocko
27-04-2009, 08:44
Standard bearers in Fast Cavalry units are a waste of ink at the GW printers. Who is going to spend valuable points on a banner which won't be used to maximum effect and is likely to give the enemy 100 VP for a captured standard? You'd hope no one.


A friend of mine always uses banner on fast cav. They get a better chance to take out other support units, and they are fleeing most of the time anyway so the banner cant be caught. :)

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 08:50
A friend of mine always uses banner on fast cav. They get a better chance to take out other support units, and they are fleeing most of the time anyway so the banner cant be caught. :)

The problem is when people take heavy flankers such as Chariots and Mounted Daemonettes with Herald that Banners on Fast Cav becomes a really bad choice.

W0lf
27-04-2009, 09:10
Ill secnd the chaos warhound posion, no idea what they were smoking when they thought that up.

Other one is the option for additional hand weapons on heros and ogres. Both are simply better with Great weapon or for a character.. anything.

havoc626
27-04-2009, 09:22
Shields on slaves. Why bother? They are just going to get killed anyway.

I see the usefulness of having a cheap, slightly more survivable unit, but I just like using my slaves how they should be, cannon fodder. Or arrow fodder, depending on what army you are up against.

slingersam
27-04-2009, 09:27
javelins for skirmish skinks

Ultimate Life Form
27-04-2009, 09:30
Im not sure, but I think the new Lizardmen option of buying additional handlers for Salamanders and Razordons belongs here?

Why would I buy additional handlers? They do nothing useful and die in droves anyway. The only thing additional handlers do is make it harder for fleeing Sallys to rally (below 25% initial unit strength).

Leogun_91
27-04-2009, 10:28
Bows on savage orcs

Gork or Possibly Mork
27-04-2009, 10:39
Musicians for any Daemon units. Sure if they tie a combat they win but it's still pretty useless.

badgeraddict
27-04-2009, 10:42
What do Handgunners or Crossbowmen need a Standard Bearer for?

StormCrow
27-04-2009, 10:44
Bows on savage orcs

That has to take the cake. I've been playing orcs for a while and didn't even know that was an option until just now :p

My suggestion would be handbows for corsairs; I've tried it a few times and I'm ALWAYS disapointed with the results.

Nicha11
27-04-2009, 10:44
Bows on savage orcs

Are you serious....

Really.....

Dear god.....

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 10:49
Musicians for any Daemon units. Sure if they tie a combat they win but it's still pretty useless.

I don't agree, Musicians are essential in all non throw-away combat units. If you mess up your rolling and end up tying combat to a good SCR unit then you're screwed. In the case of DoC you can't always rely on Fear + Outnumber and ensuring that you don't lose a combat is worth the +3pts or whatever it is.

ROCKY
27-04-2009, 10:53
hmmmm ring of volans? 20 points for one shot (which can be dispelled). doom fire ring is much more of an investment >.< also i agree on the warhound thing. i played chaos for ages and when i saw upgrades i was like GW I LOVE U then when i saw what they were....i cried....

selone
27-04-2009, 11:41
+1 strength for a chaos giant seems pretty bad to me.

Gork or Possibly Mork
27-04-2009, 11:44
I don't agree, Musicians are essential in all non throw-away combat units. If you mess up your rolling and end up tying combat to a good SCR unit then you're screwed. In the case of DoC you can't always rely on Fear + Outnumber and ensuring that you don't lose a combat is worth the +3pts or whatever it is.

You have a point there but usually they have a herald in there and maul stuff or not lose many. Then flesh hounds or whatever else come crashing into flanks next turn. So I guess I take that back but I don't see many musicians in DOC list but I see plenty in others.

zak
27-04-2009, 11:48
I've been wracking my brain for a while and I can't beat poison on Warhounds. It increases there points value by 50%!!!!

FranticDaemon
27-04-2009, 11:53
You have a point there but usually they have a herald in there and maul stuff or not lose many. Then flesh hounds or whatever else come crashing into flanks next turn. So I guess I take that back but I don't see many musicians in DOC list but I see plenty in others.

Nobody says that they are really good choice, but they are far from worst.

My vote goes to any upgrade to Gnoblar Fighters (except for champion), what ever they are (I play OK, but can't remember. I think light armour and a shield.)

Arnizipal
27-04-2009, 12:04
Shields on Repeater Crossbowmen; if they get charged they won't be able to hold up with no ranks and a complete lack of offensive power. So why increase unit cost by 10% when they will still have no armour save to decent shooting and will still crumble in combat.
A quick reform before the enemy reaches you can give you the rank bonus you need. 15 Crossbowmen with shields deployed in 3 ranks are a good/durable guarding force for your warmachines.


Dwarf warriors - Great weapons.
Pay 2 points to get dwarves that die quickly and wont strike back.
Even if they were free they would still get very rarely used.
I think that fact indicates how bad that upgrade is.
Dwarfs have low Initiative, so striking last isn't that much of a problem for them. I could see it work against high(er) Initiative high armour troops like knights or heavy infantry.


Other one is the option for additional hand weapons on heros and ogres. Both are simply better with Great weapon or for a character.. anything.It's a good choice for characters who have high Strength like Orcs or Vampires.

W0lf
27-04-2009, 12:07
For vampires id rather have a 3+ save or Great weapon every time. 20 pts for +1 attack and a 5+ save is pretty poor. Plus who dosnt run lvl 2+summoun X or Master anyway?

For orcs i guess maybe, id still GW it though.

Peregijn
27-04-2009, 12:09
+1 strength for a chaos giant seems pretty bad to me.

exept that he now can smash chariots and warmachines in one stroke?

ill go with lances on chaos knights...
+5 points to lose permente +1 strengt and magical attacks for a +2 strengt when charging...

FictionalCharacter
27-04-2009, 12:09
standard bearer for zombies.

100 free victory points. get them while they're hot.

Arnizipal
27-04-2009, 12:17
For vampires id rather have a 3+ save or Great weapon every time. 20 pts for +1 attack and a 5+ save is pretty poor.Great weapon and extra weapon are not that different against T3 enemies like Humans and Elves. S7 and S5 both wound them on 2+. Might as well get an extra attack in then.

Phoenix Blaze
27-04-2009, 12:24
Lord's Bowman for Glade Guard, hell all of the Glade upgrades are a bit silly.

Why pay for another pt of BS, when your basic BS is already pretty good and you can buy more guys (therefore more shots) instead?

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 12:31
Great weapon and extra weapon are not that different against T3 enemies like Humans and Elves. S7 and S5 both wound them on 2+. Might as well get an extra attack in then.

It is a good point but I guess this does focus the individual player's local metagame. S7 is very useful to smack Bloodthirsters, Hydras, Star Dragons, chariots and other big nasties that are becoming more and more common now.

Personally, I like Great Weapons on my BoC and Dark Elf characters. Both are weak in defence and need to be at their strongest on the attack.

untimention
27-04-2009, 12:34
MOK on a warshrine is a waste of points... when compared to MOT....

I cant understand why with the WOC chosen they come equiped with great weapons but hay ho...

Arnizipal
27-04-2009, 12:34
It is a good point but I guess this does focus the individual player's local metagame. S7 is very useful to smack Bloodthirsters, Hydras, Star Dragons, chariots and other big nasties that are becoming more and more common now.
Generally speaking I never let my Vampire face off against an enemy that has a reasonable chance of killing him. :p

He goes through troopers like a hot knife through butter though.

Archaon
27-04-2009, 12:37
Shields on Repeater Crossbowmen; if they get charged they won't be able to hold up with no ranks and a complete lack of offensive power. So why increase unit cost by 10% when they will still have no armour save to decent shooting and will still crumble in combat.

Are you kidding? 5+ against shooting and 4+ in CC?

Have 20 or more in a unit, walk down the field and bolt everything in sight, then when the time for CC has come reform the unit and you have a decent CC unit with max rank bonus and banner (maybe an assassin too for nasty surprises).

Helps too against those pesky flying skirmishers because now they have realistic chances to survive combat without losses (not against Bloodthirsters or Demonprinces but still..).

Chiron
27-04-2009, 12:45
Champion upgrades for TK chariots, for just an extra 20 points you to can have an extra attack!

Makaber
27-04-2009, 12:47
What about a champion in a unit of Tomb King archers? In my eyes it's either that or the aforementioned Warhound poison.


Champion upgrades for TK chariots, for just an extra 20 points you to can have an extra attack!

Well, to be fair the advantages of having a champion goes far beyond the extra attack. Also, the beauty of Tomb King champions is that they get raised before anything else in the unit, so you can challenge with them over and over. But I agree, it's not really a great upgrade and I'd have to have one hell of a plan to get one.

Ed.: Ah, I thought of another one! Unless I'm completely mistaken (and it's not technically a unit upgrade), can't you give High Elf heroes a spear, for the same cost as a lance? In that case, that's my contender. From horseback it's just a weak lance, and on foot it's a worse handweapon since he can never fight from the second rank anyway.

Witchblade
27-04-2009, 12:54
Standard bearers on fast cavalry, like glade riders, are pretty damn bad.

Geep
27-04-2009, 13:12
I've seen people use standards on fast cav just for the looks, so people do take them.

I'm not a fan of Wood Elf Scouts- add 5pts to a Glade Guard (almost an extra 50% in points) and lose the +1 Str at short range. They scout and skirmish, but so do many other Wood elves.

Lyinar
27-04-2009, 13:12
exept that he now can smash chariots and warmachines in one stroke?

ill go with lances on chaos knights...
+5 points to lose permente +1 strengt and magical attacks for a +2 strengt when charging...

Someone uses those things for something other than converting Chaos Warriors with Halberds?

Urgat
27-04-2009, 13:19
Mmmh.. I think the OK book is full of contenders for that topic.

Keller
27-04-2009, 13:28
I've never cared much for champion upgrades on ranged-units who don't get special weapon options. My Empire Handgunners get marksmen so they can get Hochlands and Repeaters, but I don't think I've ever used a champion on a ranged unit otherwise. +1 BS for one model isn't worth it, IMO, and it complicates my dice rolling!


hmmmm ring of volans? 20 points for one shot (which can be dispelled). doom fire ring is much more of an investment >.< I am a big fan of the Ring of Volans, actually. Its a bit random, but can be a big help. The powerlevel is the casting cost of the spell, so its not such a snap to dispel. Plus, the enemy may not expect it, since you don't use it from turn one, and may not save dice for it (or save dice for it and waste them.) I've turned more than one game around with an unexpected spell from the Volans. Last game I used it, I got Conflagation of Doom and roasted 16 Sword Masters (with some luck) when my HE opponent wasted his dispel dice on my usual casting.

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 13:58
Are you kidding? 5+ against shooting and 4+ in CC?

Have 20 or more in a unit, walk down the field and bolt everything in sight, then when the time for CC has come reform the unit and you have a decent CC unit with max rank bonus and banner (maybe an assassin too for nasty surprises).

Helps too against those pesky flying skirmishers because now they have realistic chances to survive combat without losses (not against Bloodthirsters or Demonprinces but still..).

Well if you're doing that, you're basically going to be hitting on 6s all the time with S3 bolts, which isn't very effective and wasting your movement reforming. You should deal with enemy flyers/skirmishers with Harpy fodder or some Dark Rider baiting, it's much more efficient. If you want the shooting and combat go with the Shades, they can shoot 360 degrees, skirmish as well so they're much better.
20 RBX's in 1 line walking up the field sounds like a nightmare to deploy and manouvre the rest of your army around while you're wanting to have them shooting. Corsairs with Handbows are cheaper than RBX with shields as well.

Aratus
27-04-2009, 14:07
Im sure some people here will disagree with me, but I think that Dwarf Rangers are pretty bad.

They are one of the few Scouting units in the game that cant move though woods or terrain without penalty or Skirmish. I can understand the Skirmish being dwarfs, but if we cant move out of the woods throughout the game why put them their?

Turn 1: Move 1.5" out of wood
Turn 2: Move 1.5" to get front end out of wood
Turn 3: Move 1.5" to get back end out of wood
Turn 4: Reform to face opposite deployment zone to get to the rest of the opponents army that has moved across the board
Turn 5: Move 6" in an attempt to be useful
Turn 6: Contests corner.

Its just pointless to use these guys unless you bring an Anvil of Doom, but even then your focusing all its attention on getting these lazy dwarfs out of the terrain they were placed in. And if you dont want to place them in terrain? Well then why upgrade them to scouts if they cant be placed that freely?

O&G'sRule
27-04-2009, 14:21
* halberds for chaos warriors are just a strange option imo. Out of all the options
+1S but a -2 armour save seems absurd. Great weapons too.
* light armour and shields for fast cavalry
*savage orc bows
*Lances for chaos knights
*std bearers for fast cavalry

danny7865
27-04-2009, 14:42
i personally think light armour on high elf archers is a pretty crap upgrade. Especially considering that an archer in light armour costs the same as a seaguard soldier ,who has a spear , as well as light armour and bows.They also have the ability to fight in in two ranks. Because of that I genuinely see light armour archers as throwing points away

Avian
27-04-2009, 15:07
* halberds for chaos warriors are just a strange option imo. Out of all the options
+1S but a -2 armour save seems absurd.
Eh? Halberds are great on chaos warriors. They are one of the few units that get any mileage out of them at all. A halberd and a shield is just 2 pts in total, which is a very useful and flexible combo.

The Red Scourge
27-04-2009, 16:10
Chaos Warhounds: Increase the cost by 50% to give a non-combat unit poison.

3 pages, and still nothing beats this one :p

Defender of Ulthuan
27-04-2009, 16:34
What are the worst/least viable unit upgrades?

The worst IMO is MOK for a chaos warshrine.
30pts for 1! extra attack and my non combat support unit has to charge:wtf:

Or you could use the Mark Of Tzeentch to bounce that ward save to a meaty 3+.

Also, I always give my warriors (if I ever use them) Halberds+Shields. Never underestimate S5!

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 16:44
Or you could use the Mark Of Tzeentch to bounce that ward save to a meaty 3+.

Also, I always give my warriors (if I ever use them) Halberds+Shields. Never underestimate S5!

I don't understand why people don't like Halberds either... what's not to like? 2+ to wound Elves, Men, Zombies etc.

Bac5665
27-04-2009, 16:51
Spears (except for saurus.)

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 16:53
Spears (except for saurus.)

Spears are great for Warrior blocks, 2 ranks of attacks

Spears are also good mounted, +1 St

...often for 1pt or for free, what's not to love?

Dai-Mongar
27-04-2009, 17:29
Command groups for hobgoblins. Hmm, do I spend 30 points on a command group, or get another 15 hobgoblins?
Ravening Hordes list FTL.

Jormi_Boced
27-04-2009, 17:33
Im not sure, but I think the new Lizardmen option of buying additional handlers for Salamanders and Razordons belongs here?

Why would I buy additional handlers? They do nothing useful and die in droves anyway. The only thing additional handlers do is make it harder for fleeing Sallys to rally (below 25% initial unit strength).

Well if I take a single Salamander, I like to get the extra handler in case I misfire on the first turn and eat all my skinks. I have done it before. Also, they help soak some shooting wounds for the Salamanders.

Eulogy2
27-04-2009, 17:39
i know the topic is upgrades, but seriously, is there anything worse than a saurus warrior WITHOUT spears? just make spears standard equipment and be done with it!

and the javelin/shielf upgrades on skink skirmishers is not all bad. the main benefit being no move and shoot penalty.

and i agree with the above, i usually do take an extra handler. the salamanders are well feared by my opponents, and they get shot at a fair amound. plus a solid misifre and you could be out alot of points.

Malorian
27-04-2009, 17:39
Shields on Repeater Crossbowmen; if they get charged they won't be able to hold up with no ranks and a complete lack of offensive power. So why increase unit cost by 10% when they will still have no armour save to decent shooting and will still crumble in combat.

These actually aren't that bad.

My local DE player does it and it has saved him many times.

It means things like fast cav can't just run in and wipe them out, and with the general and BSB near by there is a better chance they will hold against bigger/better things allowing him to counter.



i know the topic is upgrades, but seriously, is there anything worse than a saurus warrior WITHOUT spears? just make spears standard equipment and be done with it!

The funny thing is that a few months ago it was the complete opposite ;)

They also still have their role in the new book though. MSU saurus (best done without spears) can work very well.

Angelwing
27-04-2009, 17:40
Although some options seem silly, I'd like to point out that things like savage orc bowmen, elf archers with armour etc were quite widespread models an edition or two ago. The book writer may well have an army containing these and thinks 'I'd like to keep that option'. It keeps vets with these models happy too. How annoying is it when some units or options vanish? Isn't it better to have the option rather than not?
It's also good for themed armies where squeezing the last bit of points efficiency out isn't as desirable as the army looking cool.

Malorian
27-04-2009, 17:50
Although some options seem silly, I'd like to point out that things like savage orc bowmen, elf archers with armour etc were quite widespread models an edition or two ago. The book writer may well have an army containing these and thinks 'I'd like to keep that option'. It keeps vets with these models happy too. How annoying is it when some units or options vanish? Isn't it better to have the option rather than not?
It's also good for themed armies where squeezing the last bit of points efficiency out isn't as desirable as the army looking cool.

Very true.

My collection of ruleless models is slowing growing and it gets on my nerves each time... (although this is usually 40k)

It also gives people who like to convert or try wacky tactics something it do :)

sroblin
27-04-2009, 18:11
I'd like to second what Angel Wing said, I am always in favor of them keeping additional options and even additional unit-types, even if they aren't that useful in their present incarnation. I actually really appreciate those kinds of options thrown in for diversity's sake:

Savage orcs with bows: Tactically, not so brilliant. But if you want to have a savage-orc themed army with some ranged units, you can take them.

Light armor on scouts: Pretty useless, 1/6 chance of saving in the best of cases, usually no save anyway. But I'm glad I get to make that choice (and I have all of these 5th edition Shadow Warrior models with shields that apparently no longer exist, to my annoyance.)

Standards on Fast Cav: once again, not an option I'm usually going to take. But I'm glad that I can tool up a fast-cav assault unit with a standard if I want to (and have on occasion.)

Sure they are not highly effective choices, but at least we can make that judgment our selves, and can use those extra options to make very themed or eclectic lists when we want to. (I still miss a lot of the extra unit options that many 5th edition army books had.)

And seriously, complaining about shields on repeater crossbows? They allow your repeater crossbowmen to be as tough in CC as an Empire swordsman! (And yes, the empire swordsman is 6 points instead of 11, but he isn't spitting out armor-piercing bolts like a machine gun, now, is he?)

Von Wibble
27-04-2009, 18:36
Warplock engineer - with Warp energy condenser and warp power accumulator and without warp blades. Thats pretty bad. ;)

Avian
27-04-2009, 18:41
Standards on Fast Cav: once again, not an option I'm usually going to take. But I'm glad that I can tool up a fast-cav assault unit with a standard if I want to (and have on occasion.)
If nothing else, the standards I got with Marauder Horsemen work great with my Warrior units, whose own standards are a bit underwhelming. ;)


And I agree that some options are just there to please veteran gamers. Otherwise I would have complained about the extra wolf upgrade to goblin wolf chariots, or savage orcs with bows (they didn't have to make them 3 pts, though). I don't think you can class things like that alongside other upgrades.

Emeraldw
27-04-2009, 18:44
I'll say champions on my cavalry units. You pay 20 or more points just for an extra attack. Against large things like dragons or greater daemons they become a liability with challenges.

FictionalCharacter
27-04-2009, 18:49
I'll say champions on my cavalry units. You pay 20 or more points just for an extra attack. Against large things like dragons or greater daemons they become a liability with challenges.

i routinely put characters in cavalry units. cavalry champions ftw.

Ozorik
27-04-2009, 19:21
Dwarf warriors - Great weapons.

Pay 2 points to get dwarves that die quickly and wont strike back

Its a poor choice for blocks but its great for small flanking units, even better for longbeards (in a small unit), Str 6 is always nice.

Rangers is a pretty pointless upgrade, unless you can manage to get them into a strategically important building.

Poison for hounds is the winner I think. A lot of the suggestions here aren't all that bad or are simply a residue from past editions. Poisonous hounds dont have that excuse.

bob_the_small
27-04-2009, 19:25
I've always thought of BoC Beasts of Nurgle to be pretty awful, mostly because MoS and MoT are so much better! Poisoned attacks on a Chaos Spawn for 15pts? That +25% of the unit cost.

I've got the same view on MoK, +1S for +25% unit cost? :eyebrows:

Standard bearers in Fast Cavalry units are a waste of ink at the GW printers. Who is going to spend valuable points on a banner which won't be used to maximum effect and is likely to give the enemy 100 VP for a captured standard? You'd hope no one.

Shields on Repeater Crossbowmen; if they get charged they won't be able to hold up with no ranks and a complete lack of offensive power. So why increase unit cost by 10% when they will still have no armour save to decent shooting and will still crumble in combat.

Uhhhhh shields on DE crossbowmen are awesome? They give you +1 armour save for 1pt a model and because of that my xbowmen have held up flesh hounds, which won me the game...

O&G'sRule
27-04-2009, 20:21
Eh? Halberds are great on chaos warriors. They are one of the few units that get any mileage out of them at all. A halberd and a shield is just 2 pts in total, which is a very useful and flexible combo.

Its not a bad option don't get me wrong(the basic stats of a chaos warrior make anything viable) but out of the options a hand weapon and shield is probably the best, followed by extra hand weapon and banner of rage. That huge drop in armour save is a bigger loss than wounding slightly easier in my experience, so imo the halberd is a poor choice

Malorian
27-04-2009, 20:25
Its not a bad option don't get me wrong(the basic stats of a chaos warrior make anything viable) but out of the options a hand weapon and shield is probably the best, followed by extra hand weapon and banner of rage. That huge drop in armour save is a bigger loss than wounding slightly easier in my experience, so imo the halberd is a poor choice

I've played only 1 game with WoC (last book). I forgot my army and my buddy had a ton of warriors.

All I took was MSU warriors with halbreds (proxy) and I crushed my opponent.


I've been fighting the urge to actual build the army for myself since the halbreds actually came out...

PARTYCHICORITA
27-04-2009, 20:37
I have to join the ranks of those who say shields are great for DE xbowmen. They have decent WS, hatred and of course can stand and shoot so the shields give them a more than decent chance to fight of most light units that may go after them or your RBT.
Also since i usually move them (even march them) in the first turn and since they have a nice movement of 5' they can join combats if needed where they work as decent flankers. Shilds indeed i find very useful.

As for worthless upgrades i have to go with light armor for HE bowmen, a way to expensive bad unit gets even more expensive for no good reason.

Malorian
27-04-2009, 20:41
Also since i usually move them (even march them) in the first turn and since they have a nice movement of 5' they can join combats if needed where they work as decent flankers. Shilds indeed i find very useful.

As for worthless upgrades i have to go with light armor for HE bowmen, a way to expensive bad unit gets even more expensive for no good reason.

I've been caught by that one a couple of times :p "Flanked by crossbowmen? WTF????"


Or light armor on bret long bowmen... basically anything where you are paying to have a max of a 6+ armor save :wtf:

Ertle
27-04-2009, 20:53
Im gonna have to go with slings for slaves. A 100% pt. increase for a BS 2 with a minimum of 20 slaves in a unit. That's pretty bad.

ICLRK625
27-04-2009, 21:14
Im gonna have to go with slings for slaves. A 100% pt. increase for a BS 2 with a minimum of 20 slaves in a unit. That's pretty bad.

They can be decent in some Shooty Skaven armies, but otherwise I'd agree with you.

O&G'sRule
27-04-2009, 21:14
I've been fighting the urge to actual build the army for myself since the halbreds actually came out...

Thats easy enough to sort out, just stick one hand weapon to the haft of another handweapon and have the warrior hold it horizontally in both hands. I know someone who did that and its looks great

phoenixlaw
27-04-2009, 21:21
Worst unit upgrade is

Empire greatswords

upgraded by 10 pounds over similar troops

Now who would take them ?

:)

bob_the_small
27-04-2009, 21:32
Worst unit upgrade is

Empire greatswords

upgraded by 10 pounds over similar troops

Now who would take them ?

:)

Upgraded by 13

zoggin-eck
28-04-2009, 04:50
Although some options seem silly, I'd like to point out that things like savage orc bowmen, elf archers with armour etc were quite widespread models an edition or two ago. The book writer may well have an army containing these and thinks 'I'd like to keep that option'. It keeps vets with these models happy too. How annoying is it when some units or options vanish? Isn't it better to have the option rather than not?
It's also good for themed armies where squeezing the last bit of points efficiency out isn't as desirable as the army looking cool.

Again, so true :)

When I got the current Orc and Gobbo book, the options for savage orcs were the first things I checked! Nothing more annoying than having to hide them at the back of my other units, pretending to have two hand weapons. I believe that one of the options I used to use for wolf riders was removed. One of the combinations or armour, shield, bow or something. Hardly game breaking, but it sucks when I put effort into the models.

Go have a look at the number of people ticked off that 40K guardsmen sergeants had the option for carrying a basic lasgun removed. It may seem pointless to some people on paper, but now that it has been changed you realize how many people were affected.

I have an armies worth of 3rd edition Dark Elves armed with sword, shield and crossbow strapped to their backs. I don't mind, the shield option for missile troops is sweet! I used to play against High Elves constantly, and loved the "shoot outs" our two basic missile troops would have

WaveBreaker
28-04-2009, 06:45
Im gonna have to go with slings for slaves. A 100% pt. increase for a BS 2 with a minimum of 20 slaves in a unit. That's pretty bad.

I was looking for this one in the thread. This is by far the worst.
You have to take at least 20 slaves so you more ore less DOUBLE the unit cost. And I can't think of someone spreading them out for +/-10 BS 2 shots range 18". At -1 on long range so you could actually hit something with S 3 on a six.
Whooohooo... I'll get rid of my ratlings then...

dijit80
28-04-2009, 08:36
Well maybe not a unit option, but an army option - the empire engineer! What is he really for?

Arnizipal
28-04-2009, 11:43
Im sure some people here will disagree with me, but I think that Dwarf Rangers are pretty bad.

They are one of the few Scouting units in the game that cant move though woods or terrain without penalty or Skirmish. I can understand the Skirmish being dwarfs, but if we cant move out of the woods throughout the game why put them their?

Turn 1: Move 1.5" out of wood
Turn 2: Move 1.5" to get front end out of wood
Turn 3: Move 1.5" to get back end out of wood
Turn 4: Reform to face opposite deployment zone to get to the rest of the opponents army that has moved across the board
Turn 5: Move 6" in an attempt to be useful
Turn 6: Contests corner.

Its just pointless to use these guys unless you bring an Anvil of Doom, but even then your focusing all its attention on getting these lazy dwarfs out of the terrain they were placed in. And if you dont want to place them in terrain? Well then why upgrade them to scouts if they cant be placed that freely?Put them behind the wood then. Or behind a hill. Or behind a building or inside of it. Plenty of places to hide without penalties to your Movement.


I believe that one of the options I used to use for wolf riders was removed. One of the combinations or armour, shield, bow or something. Hardly game breaking, but it sucks when I put effort into the models.
Yeah, they took away their Fast Cav rules if you give them shields. Yet all my wolfriders have shields. :(

In the previous edition they didn't count as Fast Cav when you gave them light armour.

Hvidponi
07-05-2009, 11:57
Slings for skaven slaves... 100% point increase to give a bs 2 a rather useless shooting weapon...
Poison for the chaos dogs is also up there...

Other stupid choices:
DE sorceress on a cold one
Skaven assassin smoke bombs
Rat swarms with poisoned attacks (20 pts?)
Bows on savage orcs
If magical gear counts: Serpent Staff??? 25 pts to give a non-combat mage with 1 attack poison and re-roll to wound???? WHAT????

badgeraddict
07-05-2009, 12:08
DE sorceress on a cold one

Agreed. The model is nice, but why on earth would you do this? The threat of stupidity should deter anyone from taking this mount choice for a magic user.

valdrog
07-05-2009, 13:20
Spears for Tomb King Skeletons !

chivalrous
07-05-2009, 22:49
I'll second sroblin's suggestion of light armour for scouts, specifically light armour on Shades. I suppose if I had the points left over and nothing else to spend it on...

I'll also add Tullaris to the mix. 90 points for a champion upgrade (103 points in total) with 1 wound, T3 Heavy armour and a Great Weapon. Has anyone ever got the chance to even roll to hit with this guy?
I could just buy 6 shades to support the unit.

bob_the_small
07-05-2009, 23:06
So light armour on scouts, DE cold ones and what about WE banners? they ARE useless, treekin champs? glade guard scout rule, makes them 17 pts a model for scout and losing str 4 at 15"...

dryad champs? glamourweave kindred upgrades? you get forest spirit rules but you must ride a mount....

Kevlar
08-05-2009, 10:13
Warplock engineer - with Warp energy condenser and warp power accumulator and without warp blades. Thats pretty bad. ;)

I was going to say Warlock Engineer - Warplock Pistol. Probably one of the least used upgrades I have ever seen. Does it still count as an additional hand weapon in the current edition?

CommissarSean
08-05-2009, 10:38
Bows on savage orcs

Very Very true lol. Why would you bother

Laughingmonk
08-05-2009, 14:56
Giving Empire shooting units a standard is a complete waste of time in every way.... and they charge more for it than other non swordsmen state troop units!


The Empire Engineer is pretty useless..... but the mechanical steed is one of the worst ideas/upgrade/whatever that I've seen in the history of warhammer fantasy.

Braad
08-05-2009, 16:21
I can imagine bows on savage orcs being picked by a player who wants to field some fluffy savage army and wants some shooting in there. Also, bowmen with 2 S4 attacks in the first round are quite nice... What I don't understand though, is why this upgrade is 2 points, where it is only 1 point on the regular boyz?!? With extra choppa's being 2 points, the choice is easily made ofcourse.

Also banners on fast cav... I really like spider rider banners, so I added them. Also allows them a bit more supportive power. But my wolves don't have them, so I just pick what I like.

I vote for the poison on those chaos hounds by the way. That one is really crazy expensive. Maybe it can be nice against T7 or higher things that cannot be wounded by S3 models, but otherwise pointless.

Atzcapotzalco
08-05-2009, 17:27
Personally, I like rangers, and for a small points increase I find the extra handler worth bringing along for small units of salamanders.
Brace of pistols for a thunderer champion? Reduces him to 6" range in a 24" range unit, and even within that distance -1 to hit for multiple shots compared to +1 for a dwarf handgun will balance out the edge of firing twice.
High elf characters with halberds, when ASF allows them to ignore the only reason not to prefer great weapons.
Rune of fury on a dragonslayer-increases points cost by 50%, does exactly the same thing as using his slayer axers as an additional handweapon, and stops him using them as a great weapon, so it's actually a disadvantage overall.

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 18:00
I'll also add Tullaris to the mix. 90 points for a champion upgrade (103 points in total) with 1 wound, T3 Heavy armour and a Great Weapon. Has anyone ever got the chance to even roll to hit with this guy?I could just buy 6 shades to support the unit.
103 points? He costs only 95 :eyebrows:

Anyway, you have to see him as a champion with some fancy kit. An executioner champion costs 24 points, so lets start from that. Tullaris makes the whole unit cause fear. A quick look at the Dread Banner tells us this ability costs 40 points. He also has a magical great weapon that allows rerolls to wound. The Dark Elves don't have an equivalent item for that but the Guiding Eye allows rerolls for shooting hits and costs 25 points. I think that would be about right as a pointcost for Tullaris' sword.

So we have 24+40+25 = 89 points.
Entirely six points overpriced ;)

isidril93
08-05-2009, 18:24
103 points? He costs only 95 :eyebrows:

Anyway, you have to see him as a champion with some fancy kit. An executioner champion costs 24 points, so lets start from that. Tullaris makes the whole unit cause fear. A quick look at the Dread Banner tells us this ability costs 40 points. He also has a magical great weapon that allows rerolls to wound. The Dark Elves don't have an equivalent item for that but the Guiding Eye allows rerolls for shooting hits and costs 25 points. I think that would be about right as a pointcost for Tullaris' sword.

So we have 24+40+25 = 89 points.
Entirely six points overpriced ;)

but hes a champ so replaces a normal executioner

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 18:34
No, he doesn't replace anyone. It says one unit of executioners may include Tullaris instead of having champion.

chivalrous
08-05-2009, 18:36
103 points? He costs only 95 :eyebrows:

Anyway, you have to see him as a champion with some fancy kit. An executioner champion costs 24 points, so lets start from that. Tullaris makes the whole unit cause fear. A quick look at the Dread Banner tells us this ability costs 40 points. He also has a magical great weapon that allows rerolls to wound. okay, for some reason I had a 90 point upgrade for an executioner, nevermind.

Yes I do see him as a champion with fancy kit that's where my problem lies. He's a Champion with all the survivability of such and all that fancy kit dies with him, which will be the second round of combat, unless he's very very lucky. The first round if the Executioners get charged.

The whole unit causes fear... handy against fear causing armies or low leadership units, but of the latter, there aren't many that would be targets for Executioners. You don't see many Goblins or Skaven with 3+ armour saves.

If he were closer to his 5th edition incarnation; 2 Wounds, 5+ Black Amulet, i.e. was a little more resilient then he'd be useful, but right now a quick shot from a Hockland longrifle, or a round of close with even the lowliest core unit takes him off the board.
I'd even be happy to pay 165 points for a Master profile and take up a hero slot.

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 18:57
Yeah, but it's like that with all the "special character" champions. It's hardly unique to Tullaris. Besides, since he's not a character I don't think you need to tell your opponent he's in one of your units until you use him.

Cats Laughing
08-05-2009, 19:14
No, he doesn't replace anyone. It says one unit of executioners may include Tullaris instead of having champion.

IIRC, the DE 01/2009(?) FAQ says that he's 'bought' just like a champion, and therefore you need to 'buy' the underlying executioner first. So 20 executioners with Tullaris is just like 20 executioners with a champion, which is 20 models...

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 19:48
*checks*

Hmm... Seems you're right. Odd ruling that.

Edit
08-05-2009, 22:22
I like pistols on warlock engineers, killed many a giant/shaggoth.etc with that one more str 5 shot.

However: slave - 2pts, slave champion 8 pts....wth? not sure anything else out there pays 4x the cost for one more attack

Commissar Lord Davril
09-05-2009, 03:28
Aren't there upgrades for Warhounds in the WoC book? If there are, then why?

For BoC, it has to be shields for herds. 5+ save in CC and a 6+ against missile fire for +2 points I think, is not that great. 2 HW FTW

Harwammer
09-05-2009, 10:57
Aren't there upgrades for Warhounds in the WoC book? If there are, then why?

For BoC, it has to be shields for herds. 5+ save in CC and a 6+ against missile fire for +2 points I think, is not that great. 2 HW FTW

Eh? you get the option to swap your xhw to a shield for free (not great) OR upgrade your ungors to carry shields for +1 point (also not great, especially as the rules tell you to use their spears!)

I really don't see where you are getting +2 points from.