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bob_the_small
27-04-2009, 21:49
Title says it all.... i would put forward the DE hydra, 175 pts of pure awesomeness....

phoenixlaw
27-04-2009, 21:53
Flamers without a doubt for me

W0lf
27-04-2009, 21:53
I saw this comming when the brother thread appeared and hoped it wouldnt emerge ^^

Its easily Flamers of Tzeentch in every single way.

Close runners;

Chaos Knights
Flesh hounds
Hydra
Black Guard
Skink skirmishers
Vargulf

Friedtaterexplosion
27-04-2009, 21:54
Fear the eagles.

badgeraddict
27-04-2009, 21:57
Peasant Bowmen.

Longbows, Defensive Stakes, ok BS, Peasants Duty, can skirmish and can also have flaming attacks for 5pts per unit. Bloody marvelous!

Walls
27-04-2009, 22:03
Hydra without a doubt. Is anything that good at 175pts?

Hrogoff the Destructor
27-04-2009, 22:04
Flamers definately take the cake.

Not far behind is the hydra.

bob_the_small
27-04-2009, 22:07
but they are 35 points a model....

Reinnon
27-04-2009, 22:11
35 points is cheap for the sheer amount of things they can do, people would still take them if they were 45-50 points.

DarkTerror
27-04-2009, 22:12
Peasant Bowmen.

Longbows, Defensive Stakes, ok BS, Peasants Duty, can skirmish and can also have flaming attacks for 5pts per unit. Bloody marvelous!

Don't they have normal bows? I could be wrong.


Anyway - for me it's Dryads. They're not a unit capable of taking on any opponent, but they're just so very cheap for what you get.

High movement, WS, S, T, attacks and leadership. Combine that with being ItP, move through woods, skirmish, magical attacks and a 5+ ward save. All for 12 points.

I love 'em. Too bad I don't play Wood Elves...

CaliforniaGamer
27-04-2009, 22:12
1. Flamers
2. Khorndogs
......huge cliff.........
3. Hydra

selone
27-04-2009, 22:15
Aye they get longbow's :)

W0lf
27-04-2009, 22:28
Lol at flamer =s costing 35 pts a model.

They are the most broken unit in fantasy and the only unit ive ever seen created with literaly no weakness. Why dont they have 1 S3 attack in combat? WHy are they T4 2 wounds? Why oh why are they M6?

Lots of questions.. no answers.

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 22:30
My votes would go for:

Winner - Flamers of Tzeentch
Miscellaneous - Ratling Guns
Rare Choice - Hydra
Special Choice - Dragon Princes/Black Guard
Core Choice - Dark Elf Warriors
Hero - Warlock Engineer, Herald
Lord - Vampire, Dreadlord, Tomb King

bob_the_small
27-04-2009, 22:37
My votes would go for:

Winner - Flamers of Tzeentch
Miscellaneous - Ratling Guns
Rare Choice - Hydra
Special Choice - Dragon Princes/Black Guard
Core Choice - Dark Elf Warriors
Hero - Warlock Engineer, Herald
Lord - Vampire, Dreadlord, Tomb King

So basically.... DE win! What about a chaos lord?

W0lf
27-04-2009, 22:40
Chaos lords are terrible and are not considered worth their cost by any WAAC/Tourny player. Hell hes the weakest lord choice in the WoC book.

Im almost offended you suggest such a crime.

DE have a strong claim because alot of their stuff is underpointed. However listing Dragon princes and not the infinitly better flesh hounds is odd. Also for core id argue dark riders are better.

swarmofseals
27-04-2009, 22:47
Personally I think this question is only interesting if you break it down quite a bit.

Either ask "what is the best unit for the points in each army?" or ask based on various sub-categories like monsters, core infantry, elite infantry, heavy cav, light cav, core shooters, elite shooters, war machine, scouts, etc.

I'll try my hand at a few of these categories:

Core shooters: lots of close options here. You could probably make an argument for peasant bowmen, handgunners/xbows, thunderers/quarrelers, glade guard, and repeater xbows just off the top of my head.

Light cav: most would probably give this to dark riders. Wild riders are also pretty solid though, tbh.

Heavy cav: Chaos knights have got to be the favorite here, although flesh hounds would beat them most likely if you count them as heavy cav. Dragon princes are also really good.

Elite shooters: Flamers, obviously. No question about it.

Monster: Hydra, also pretty obvious.

War machine: no clue really.

Flyers: Harpies? Maybe chaos furies? not really sure here.

Scouts: probably going to go with DE shades here.

It gets really interesting when you consider elite and core infantry. Black Guard perhaps for elite?



Going army by army:

DoC: Flamers
WoC: Chaos Knights
BoC: No clue
DE: Hydra
HE: Swordmasters or Dragon Princes, probably. Don't really know.
WE: I play WE and I can't answer this! I guess dryads? Maybe war dancers?
Empire: No clue
Brets: Peasant bowmen or grail knights probably? KotR are pretty solid too.
O+G: No clue. Spear chukkas seem to be pretty popular, maybe?
Dwarves: Again, no clue. Thorek (:cheese:)
Skaven: Haven't the foggiest idea.
VC: Really tough call here. I can see arguments for ghouls, grave guard, black knights, or maybe even the lowly zombie (given that so many can be raised on top of the starting number).
TK: I don't know much about TK, but I've heard good things about Ushabti.
OK: No clue

Aurellis
27-04-2009, 22:48
Chaos lords are terrible and are not considered worth their cost by any WAAC/Tourny player. Hell hes the weakest lord choice in the WoC book.

Im almost offended you suggest such a crime.

DE have a strong claim because alot of their stuff is underpointed. However listing Dragon princes and not the infinitly better flesh hounds is odd. Also for core id argue dark riders are better.

I never take Dark Riders, I tend to use Harpies in the baiting and march blocking role because they're half the price for a unit and don't cause panic. I know this is probably considered as heresy by most other Dark Elf players but I do fine without them. I've only got one unit of 5 in my whole collection.

sephiroth87
27-04-2009, 23:24
My vote goes for flamers, treemen, steamtank, and pegasus knights.

perplexiti
27-04-2009, 23:37
Not sure over all the armies, but in my Lizardmen force I love my 50pt skinks.

I have lost count of the times I've been able to chuck my heavy hitters at the flank of a unit they pull out of the line, and they've killed giants as well.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 00:23
Before ANYONE ever brings up another High Elf unit, I want you to look at DE Black Guard first.

Leadership 9, WS5, I6, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn on 9, 2 attacks each S4. They can re-roll all misses in every round of combat because of their special rule; Warrior Elite.
They can carry a 50-point Banner. (COUGH, Standard of Hag Graef, ASF)
Their Champion can hold a 25-point item (COUGH, Ring of Hotek).
Oh yes, and they can add an Assassin to their ranks.

And these cost 2 points less than every High Elf elite Infantry.

Nicha11
28-04-2009, 00:43
Pheonix Guard, very durable (for elves).
And can walk around auto breaking their foes with fear.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 00:44
Pheonix Guard, very durable (for elves).
And can walk around auto breaking their foes with fear.

Um.. no. Still doesn't compare.
And where do you get auto-breaking? Auto-breaking with Fear is only when I win combat and I outnumber. And I don't call 6 attacks at WS5 S4 with no-rerolls to hit winning combat.

LonelyPath
28-04-2009, 00:46
Flamers are very powerful and easily get the win.

However, I love the lowly zombie, 4 points a model and can tie up the enemy's most powerful units for an entire game since they're so easy to reinforce. And to make them even more annying, have a vampire lord nearby with a helm of commandment and the book of arkhan. WS7 is not to be sneezed at.

Nicha11
28-04-2009, 00:50
Um.. no. Still doesn't compare.
And where do you get auto-breaking? Auto-breaking with Fear is only when I win combat and I outnumber. And I don't call 6 attacks at WS5 S4 with no-rerolls to hit winning combat.

Well they will always strike first, and i would expect them to kill 2 enemies.
Then they are hard to kill with the heavy armour and ward save.
And if you take them in large enough units they are auto breaking if they win combats.

I consider the Pheonix guard to be the best "block" infantry in the game not for their killieness, but for their durability and fear causing.

zak
28-04-2009, 00:57
Phoenix Guard are good, but Black Guard are just far better. I agree that Phoenix Guard are durable, but for sheer cost effectiveness BG are in every other way better. They will hit more and run less, which is hugely important.

My vote still goes to the flamer, followed closely by the Hydra. If the Hydra didn't get hatred and only had 4 attacks it would still be a bargain.

Hrogoff the Destructor
28-04-2009, 01:07
Well they will always strike first, and i would expect them to kill 2 enemies.
Then they are hard to kill with the heavy armour and ward save.
And if you take them in large enough units they are auto breaking if they win combats.

I consider the Pheonix guard to be the best "block" infantry in the game not for their killieness, but for their durability and fear causing.

That's the problem though, you can't take them in large enough units. Fear hardly plays any purpose in an elite, low model count, ASF army. High Elf players pay through the teeth for all their units (by that I mean all their units are extremely expensive, but not necessarily overcosted). Not once have I ever autobroke a unit with them, and I take them in every single High Elf list I create.

Don't get me wrong, they are my favorite special choice for my High Elves, but they got nothing on Black Guard.

Pheonix Guard are only good for absorbing damage (usually on the flanks).

w3rm
28-04-2009, 01:26
It's a tie for the popemobile and Hobgoblin Wolf Riders!

Dark14
28-04-2009, 01:43
i would like to toss in swordmasters as a nasty unit... ws6 asf 2st5 attacks....with a bsb and battle banner how can they lose...

if your looking for the #1most OP unit its the entire daemons book cough.

The Beast Walks Among Us
28-04-2009, 03:14
i would like to toss in swordmasters as a nasty unit... ws6 asf 2st5 attacks....with a bsb and battle banner how can they lose...

...if they never get into combat. They drop like flies to any shooting. Many HE players consider them the weakest of the elite infantry for this reason.
I definitely think they have a place in the army, if nothing more than as a high-priority target for the enemy.

Cypher, the Emperor
28-04-2009, 03:20
I vote for the ASF giant in the new chaos book.

ASF shove in pants is just awesome.

Briohmar
28-04-2009, 07:56
I vote for the Chaos Warhound. at 6 points per model for what they can do, they are easily the best value in the game. I know they're not the deadliest, I know they're not the cheesiest, or the toughest, or immune to psych, or any number of other things, but they are the single most useful and ubiquitous entity in the Warriors of Chaos list.

Condottiere
28-04-2009, 08:22
It's a tie for the popemobile and Hobgoblin Wolf Riders!I don't know if Hobgoblins are the best unit, but it looks like they are the best fast cavalry.

Nicha11
28-04-2009, 09:35
I vote for the Chaos Warhound. They are the single most useful and ubiquitous entity in the Warriors of Chaos list.

Seconded, if WOC didn't have war hounds then Khorne would be almost unusable.

Urgat
28-04-2009, 09:46
I don't know if Hobgoblins are the best unit, but it looks like they are the best fast cavalry.

They would if they were not 10 minimum :/


And I don't call 6 attacks at WS5 S4 with no-rerolls to hit winning combat.

Wow, now I know I'm completly out of phase with the current players.

Zilverug
28-04-2009, 10:33
They would if they were not 10 minimum :/

Oglah Khan's (sp?) Dogs of War do not have a 10 minumum - and they are extremely good indeed!

Necromancy Black
28-04-2009, 11:09
For Core I'm throwing up Skink Skirmishers and Spear armed Saurus Warriors.

I'll also have to say that for 85 points, about 110-130ish when upgraded, Scar-Veterans are excellently priced for Heroes.

But yeah, can't beat that damn Hydra.

badgeraddict
28-04-2009, 11:37
Harpies are also very good for their point cost.

Fly, high land movement, ok WS, 2 attacks, High Initiative and don't cause panic to other units.

Core and 11pts a piece.

Lordmonkey
28-04-2009, 13:08
Hydra's are harmless, can't work out why everyone thinks they are fantastic? Big, chunky and unwieldy... chuck me a varghulf any day.

For pts effectiveness my vote sways between Flamers of Tzeentch and the Ratling Gun. Both have sick destructive potential for their pts and both are difficult to get rid of.

a squig
28-04-2009, 13:20
i also vote for skink srimishers the number of times ive caused a benny hill moments of rank and file spining on the spot to try to see me and charge :D

7pts for 2 shots of posion scrimishers with fast movement just rip ranked units apart like no business.

i disagree with saurus they are aboslultey rubbish, que 3 pages of abuse :)

Clegane
28-04-2009, 13:27
I do feel compelled to mention the Tomb Scorpion.

S5, T5, 4 Attacks, Poison, Killing Blow, Fear, MR1, 4 Wounds, 5+ save, -1 loss from crumble checks, and able to charge the turn it materializes-all for 85 points!

Not bad for a crusty old 6th ed unit.

danny7865
28-04-2009, 13:42
To deal with the black guard unit of doom , use the ring of corin.If you play your magic tactically you should be ok.And lets not forget shooting which really hurts them.I agree that flamers are ridiculously hard as is the hydra.I'm surprised no one has mentioned the engine of the gods they are the bane of my existance these days.....

Hvidponi
28-04-2009, 14:27
Its a toos up between the Hydra and the Flamers...

Other very close choices:
Horrors, Flesh Hounds, Black Guards, Knightly Orders, Chaos Sorcerers...

Aurellis
28-04-2009, 17:20
To deal with the black guard unit of doom , use the ring of corin.If you play your magic tactically you should be ok.And lets not forget shooting which really hurts them.I agree that flamers are ridiculously hard as is the hydra.I'm surprised no one has mentioned the engine of the gods they are the bane of my existance these days.....

Against the 'Black Guard unit of doom', as you put, the best way to take them out is by sustained shooting. They only have a 5+ armour save and the dice gods usually punish DE players badly with 5+ saves :( There's not really much way to get around the Ring of Hotek though, in the past I have simply ignore the magic phase and transferred those points into shooting to strip the ranks off of those flimsy Elves.

O&G'sRule
28-04-2009, 17:28
Flamers of Tzeentch without any doubt, its ridiculous what they can do. The Blue scribes if you want a character too
I use a Hydra but I don't see the fuss about them, my giant batters it every time

Aurellis
28-04-2009, 17:37
Flamers of Tzeentch without any doubt, its ridiculous what they can do. The Blue scribes if you want a character too
I use a Hydra but I don't see the fuss about them, my giant batters it every time

The fuss is that it causes Terror, has 2 Beastmasters as Handlers that can't be targetted, has 7 S5 attacks, 6 S3 attacks from the Beastmasters, 5 wounds, re-rolls all misses in all combat rounds and Regenerates for 175 points. Mhmmm... I might just have to get a second Hydra for 3000pt games :D

Mercules
28-04-2009, 17:50
OK: No clue

Gnoblars!

Gnoblar Fighters: 40 points for 20 of them. Sharp Stuff and don't cause panic in ANYONE!

Gnoblar Trappers: 48 points for 8 of them. Skirmish, Scout, Sharp Stuff, and again don't cause panic.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 18:22
The fuss is that it causes Terror, has 2 Beastmasters as Handlers that can't be targetted, has 7 S5 attacks, 6 S3 attacks from the Beastmasters, 5 wounds, re-rolls all misses in all combat rounds and Regenerates for 175 points. Mhmmm... I might just have to get a second Hydra for 3000pt games :D

For 175 points, the Hydra is one of the most undercosted units in the entire game. I'd also like to mention that it moves through Terrain freely, is toughness 5 and if you ignore it, it breaths your entire battleline with S5 breath.

If I played Dark Elves, I'd take two in every game. There's ZERO reason not to. Absolutely none.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 18:26
To deal with the black guard unit of doom , use the ring of corin.If you play your magic tactically you should be ok.And lets not forget shooting which really hurts them.I agree that flamers are ridiculously hard as is the hydra.I'm surprised no one has mentioned the engine of the gods they are the bane of my existance these days.....

Engine costs literally a 5th of their army. If you kill the Priest, the Engines gone, if you kill the Steggy, the Engine's gone. It's not that bad if you factor up the points.

As for the Black Guard unit, yes, shooting the crap out of them is absolutely key, but when you have a big unit of those hurrying up the field with 2x Hydras on its flank, a big ass Dragon and killy Lord on YOUR flank, and a group of 10 Shades with an Assassin on YOUR other flank, your choices of shooting becomes drastically decreased. And last I checked, [judging by how you stated Ring of Corin] High Elves only have 4x RBT. Good luck shooting that.

So yeah, go Dark Elves and the fact they can almost nullify an entire magic phase with a 25 point item that can be carried on a unit Champion. Who wrote this book again? They should be shot.

nosferatu1001
28-04-2009, 18:51
EotG are not undercosted, its the combos that make it quite tough - you can get quite a good 2250 with slaan, TG and 2 engines, with plenty of skirmishers to be annoying. Played 2 in a 2k tourny and minced warriors - got in the middle and killed 8 knights and 23 warriors. OK got lucky with distance....

I do love my skinks though, even have a tshirt to that effect :) i love causing people to spin on the spot thinking they need to engage them; as a distraction they are superb, keep pulling people apart to chase 70 points of un upgraded unit.....very few core choices (core!!!) are as effective for so little outlay, and at minmum size

Amnar
28-04-2009, 18:53
Before ANYONE ever brings up another High Elf unit, I want you to look at DE Black Guard first.

Leadership 9, WS5, I6, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn on 9, 2 attacks each S4. They can re-roll all misses in every round of combat because of their special rule; Warrior Elite.
They can carry a 50-point Banner. (COUGH, Standard of Hag Graef, ASF)
Their Champion can hold a 25-point item (COUGH, Ring of Hotek).
Oh yes, and they can add an Assassin to their ranks.

And these cost 2 points less than every High Elf elite Infantry.

If you're going to factor in the standard of Hag Graef, then you can't get away with calling them 2 points less than every high elf elite infantry. Don't get me wrong, BG rock, but HE infantry are no slouches either.... I'm looking at you swordmasters!

lakissov
28-04-2009, 18:59
just a small point about the hydra: it re-rolls hits not in all rounds of combat - only in the first one. but that was just to be precise - in reality, I do agree that the hydra is the second best unit for its points (flamers are stil better; and that's of course if we only talk about units and not characters - there are quite a few characters that are better for their points, even though they are 3x more expensive)

as for the reasons not to take two hydras in every game - there is one. it just becomes too easy... I play DE and I don't take any hydras at all, and I think that there will be more and more players like me with time (after all, DE have always been an underdog army, so there are a lot of players for DE who like to use tactics instead of strong units; after a period of playing with the new toys, I am sure the majority will switch back to using tactics again - except the new players, of course, who decided to use DE when they suddenly became strong)

Amnar
28-04-2009, 19:00
Engine costs literally a 5th of their army. If you kill the Priest, the Engines gone, if you kill the Steggy, the Engine's gone. It's not that bad if you factor up the points.

As for the Black Guard unit, yes, shooting the crap out of them is absolutely key, but when you have a big unit of those hurrying up the field with 2x Hydras on its flank, a big ass Dragon and killy Lord on YOUR flank, and a group of 10 Shades with an Assassin on YOUR other flank, your choices of shooting becomes drastically decreased. And last I checked, [judging by how you stated Ring of Corin] High Elves only have 4x RBT. Good luck shooting that.

So yeah, go Dark Elves and the fact they can almost nullify an entire magic phase with a 25 point item that can be carried on a unit Champion. Who wrote this book again? They should be shot.

Only 4 RBT... why would you possible need anymore? Dark Elves aren't all that bad.... Most people won't use dual hydra and dragon. If they do, well, that's what star dragons are for...

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 19:09
If you're going to factor in the standard of Hag Graef, then you can't get away with calling them 2 points less than every high elf elite infantry. Don't get me wrong, BG rock, but HE infantry are no slouches either.... I'm looking at you swordmasters!

And what 35 point banner equiv does High Elves have that makes them on par with Black Guard? Or am I missing something here?

And yes, I can factor in a Standard of Hag Graef and call them 2 points less than every High Elf Infantry because a block of 20 Black Guard with the Banner of Hag Graef is still cheaper than a block of HE equil WITHOUT a Magical Banner.

Put 20x SMs with full command + Magical Banner of your choice vs 20x Black Guard with full command + Magical Banner of your choice. Compare prices, then attack eachother. Hey guess what, Black Guard win every time with hardly any losses, and for less points.

20x Sword Masters (FC, Standard of Balance) = 380
20x Black Guard (FC, Standard of Hag Graef) = 330 + 25 for Ring of Hotek.

You know why? Because they'll hit first, everytime. I6 vs I5. 2 attacks each, 3 for the Champion with re-rolls in every turn of combat. Hit on 4s, wound on 3s. ASF Banner cancels out ASF. If I take Standard of Balance and take away your Hatred, you don't care because you still have Warrior Elite. And your Champion provides 12" Magic immunity to everyone around him. I'm calling it Magic immunity because a 25-point item that makes 3 die casts turn into 44% chance of miscast is f'n retarded.

I see zero reason not to take Black Guard in every game that I play because they're STUPID amazing for their point cost. Literally, stupid.

Gav Thrope needs some classes on game balance design. And now that we're at that, Matt Ward does to.

forgottenlor
28-04-2009, 19:20
I agree that flamers and Hydras are super.

Two other very good units:

Skaven slaves, are reliable in comparison to gnoblars and goblins, move 5, and have a leadership of 10 if within 12 of the general. You get a unit with a maximum rank bonus for 40 points.

Black knights, Heavy cavalry that can move through all sorts of terrain for no penalty, and they pack a punch and are cheap. A unit with no barding moves 8 through all terrain and costs around 120 points.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 19:22
Speaking as a Dark Elf player, two hydras are nice to run against some armies. I should know, as it's what I ran during the last league at my local game store. But for a more "all-comers" army you really need to replace one of them with two bolt throwers. There are things out there that will eat hydras for breakfast (expensive things, mind you), and you need a high strength weapon to reach out and touch them without having to worry about getting touched back.

And Lore of Fire will fry a Hydra quite nicely.

I'll admit that Black Guard are a bit over the top. But imo this is largely because of their ability to take the asf banner. Without that they're much easier to deal with. I don't run them myself, but I did have a really bad encounter with them during one game. I belatedly realized after the fact that I should have just had my hydras flank them and flame them to death. They're extremely vulnerable to shooting of all kinds. And even if the champion has the Ring of Hotek (and I'm willing to gamble one spell per turn on two dice if I can guarantee that it doesn't get dispelled) there are spells in the game that don't require you to target the unit that's affected by the spell and are therefore not affected by the ring so long as the caster is more than 12 inches away from the model with it - and generally these are the more powerful spells. The problem with the Black Guard is the asf banner, plain and simple.

bob_the_small
28-04-2009, 20:23
To deal with the black guard unit of doom , use the ring of corin.If you play your magic tactically you should be ok.And lets not forget shooting which really hurts them.I agree that flamers are ridiculously hard as is the hydra.I'm surprised no one has mentioned the engine of the gods they are the bane of my existance these days.....

Meet the ring of darkness... whats that? your BS is halved when shooting at me... yes.... and when in combat, you are at half WS when hitting the bearer? what?? But, unfortunately it is overshadowed by the RoH and the PoK

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:38
Meet the ring of darkness... whats that? your BS is halved when shooting at me... yes.... and when in combat, you are at half WS when hitting the bearer? what?? But, unfortunately it is overshadowed by the RoH and the PoK

Why not just a have a mounted Noble in there with a Halberd and Ring of Darkness? He has a 2+ Armor save, 3 ASF S5 attacks at WS6 and gives your entire unit shooting protection for 146 points.

The PoK is better spent on the Dragon Lord with Crimson Death.

Amnar
28-04-2009, 20:41
Speaking as a Dark Elf player, two hydras are nice to run against some armies. I should know, as it's what I ran during the last league at my local game store. But for a more "all-comers" army you really need to replace one of them with two bolt throwers. There are things out there that will eat hydras for breakfast (expensive things, mind you), and you need a high strength weapon to reach out and touch them without having to worry about getting touched back.

And Lore of Fire will fry a Hydra quite nicely.

I'll admit that Black Guard are a bit over the top. But imo this is largely because of their ability to take the asf banner. Without that they're much easier to deal with. I don't run them myself, but I did have a really bad encounter with them during one game. I belatedly realized after the fact that I should have just had my hydras flank them and flame them to death. They're extremely vulnerable to shooting of all kinds. And even if the champion has the Ring of Hotek (and I'm willing to gamble one spell per turn on two dice if I can guarantee that it doesn't get dispelled) there are spells in the game that don't require you to target the unit that's affected by the spell and are therefore not affected by the ring so long as the caster is more than 12 inches away from the model with it - and generally these are the more powerful spells. The problem with the Black Guard is the asf banner, plain and simple.


They hit first, they hit often, but they don't hit very hard. Heavy infantry can still have their way with them. Chaos warriors and Saurus with spears easily go toe to toe with Black Guard, asf or not.

Every army needs a solid anvil unit, for DE, it's Black Guard.

It's easy to compare BG vs SM and be like well, BG would beat SM. While that may be true in that particular case, I'd much rather take an equal points unit of SM against enemies such as Chaos Warriors, where the higher strength makes a significant difference.

BG are amazing, they have a ton of special rules, and can probably go up by a point each or so, but they're really not that hard to deal with, at the end of the day, they suffer from the classic elf weakness of T3 5+ save.

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 20:47
They hit first, they hit often, but they don't hit very hard. Heavy infantry can still have their way with them. Chaos warriors and Saurus with spears easily go toe to toe with Black Guard, asf or not.

Every army needs a solid anvil unit, for DE, it's Black Guard.

It's easy to compare BG vs SM and be like well, BG would beat SM. While that may be true in that particular case, I'd much rather take an equal points unit of SM against enemies such as Chaos Warriors, where the higher strength makes a significant difference.

BG are amazing, they have a ton of special rules, and can probably go up by a point each or so, but they're really not that hard to deal with, at the end of the day, they suffer from the classic elf weakness of T3 5+ save.

I'm sorry, but for Immune to Psychology, Eternal Hatred, Warrior Elite, Stubborn on Leadership 9, 2 attacks each, they need to be 16+ points, not 13. They're basically the Chaos Chosen equiv of the Dark Elf book.


The problem with the Black Guard is the asf banner, plain and simple.

Good suggestion, but the entire book is underpriced for what it can do. I've never seen an army field so many ridiculous models in 2250 points; not even in Daemons. And what's scary is that Daemons and VC rank above Dark Elves in tournament play.

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 21:15
They hit first, they hit often, but they don't hit very hard. Heavy infantry can still have their way with them. Chaos warriors and Saurus with spears easily go toe to toe with Black Guard, asf or not.


Until you fight a hero with Soulrender in the front rank. It's a cheap weapon that is about right points-wise until combined with the ASF banner. Then it's absolutely brutal.

Once again, the problem comes down to the ASF banner.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a game against another Dark Elf player. Literally, by the end of turn 3, the only things he had left on the table were his unit of Black Guard (assassin with killing blow and extra attacks, hero with Soulrender, Ring of Hotek, ASF Banner) and his Cauldron of Blood. iirc, I'd lost a single unit of harpies up until that point.

I won by a total of 200 points.

I hit him with two units of spears - one in the flank and one in the rear - and ended up losing after a couple of rounds of combat. The problem was basically that I whittled his Black Guard down until his characters in the unit were able to get into combat (i.e. my spearmen in the back caught up to the front rank), and then they singlehandedly generated enough casaulties to force both units to flee (I also had both of my spellcasters in one of the units, which is why it cost me so many points). I then hit him in the rear with a unit of Cold One Knights (including a hero), and lost the ENTIRE unit before I got a chance to swing.

As I said in my earlier post, I should have just flamed him to death with my Hydras.

Though I should also add that the Black Horror that went off on Turn One and hit 12 of his Black Guard while only killing one didn't help much either...

The problem with the unit is the ASF banner, and literally ONLY the ASF banner. If I'd inflicted just a couple more casualties, then he would have lost his standard bearer, and I could have wiped out the remaining three models (champion, hero, assassin) fairly easily. Absent the S6, -3 armor save attacks from ASF Soulrender, I'm confident that I could have beaten the unit in close combat. If the spear bricks didn't get him, then my Cold One Knights would have.

Though I did have one bit of bad luck when my assassin accepted a challenge from his assassin and I completely whiffed my attacks...

lakissov
28-04-2009, 21:18
And what's scary is that Daemons and VC rank above Dark Elves in tournament play.I noticed by your other posts that you hate dark elves really much (not very surprising, judging by your high elf avatar :)), and I'd like to say one simple thing: don't let your hatred eclipse your reasoning ability ;)

Dark elves don't even nearly compare to daemons. And even VC are also stronger than DE for one simple reason: the whole army is invulnerable to psychology, and is unbreakable. I can't stress the importance of this enough...

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 21:21
I noticed by your other posts that you hate dark elves really much (not very surprising, judging by your high elf avatar :)), and I'd like to say one simple thing: don't let your hatred eclipse your reasoning ability ;)

Dark elves don't even nearly compare to daemons. And even VC are also stronger than DE for one simple reason: the whole army is invulnerable to psychology, and is unbreakable. I can't stress the importance of this enough...

As a High Elf player, yes, I loathe Dark Elves as much ingame as I do in the lore.
They're just so damn good on the actual gaming table.

But they're ranked 3rd in terms of power and the only reason why Daemons and VC rank higher is because their global special rules are stronger than that of Dark Elves (Daemons more than VC and so on..etc).

Despoiler
28-04-2009, 21:29
I do feel compelled to mention the Tomb Scorpion.

S5, T5, 4 Attacks, Poison, Killing Blow, Fear, MR1, 4 Wounds, 5+ save, -1 loss from crumble checks, and able to charge the turn it materializes-all for 85 points!

Not bad for a crusty old 6th ed unit.

i second without doubt great unit for warmachine, lone wizard hunting and support in combat. back in my TK days i never left home without at least one.

Amnar
28-04-2009, 21:35
Until you fight a hero with Soulrender in the front rank. It's a cheap weapon that is about right points-wise until combined with the ASF banner. Then it's absolutely brutal.



Sure, but I get heroes, you get heroes, we all get heroes, it balances out.

A block of 20 black guard with banner, hero, assassin, and items/runes becomes a pretty hefty investment.

Sounds like you had some downright brutal luck too :)

Eumerin
28-04-2009, 21:43
A block of 20 black guard with banner, hero, assassin, and items/runes becomes a pretty hefty investment.


No doubt. Slightly over 20% of the points total in a typical tournament, actually. A Dreadlord on a Dragon costs a little bit more before you add in his magic items.

My point was that Soulrender is a pretty cheap way to significantly increase the power of that investment - largely due to the ASF banner, which is what I had earlier fingered as the primary problem with Black Guard. Without the banner, I doubt anyone would care about Soulrender or the Black Guard.

Deal with the banner somehow, and as far as I'm concerned the problem is solved.

bob_the_small
28-04-2009, 21:45
Deal with the banner somehow, and as far as I'm concerned the problem is solved.

Meet high elves with the ring of corin and vauls unmaking... KACHING!

LKHERO
28-04-2009, 21:47
Meet high elves with the ring of corin and vauls unmaking... KACHING!

Feel free to cast Vaul's Unmaking (12+ to cast) into Ring of Hotek. You have a 72.22% chance to fail with 4 dice.

And good luck using a 1-time use Power Level 3 spell with 2 default dispel dice.

Are you serious guy?


A block of 20 black guard with banner, hero, assassin, and items/runes becomes a pretty hefty investment.

You don't need an Assassin in there because the entire unit ASFs already. The Assassin is better put in a Shades unit to kill any Cav trying to charge it.

Dungeon_Lawyer
28-04-2009, 21:57
For 175 points, the Hydra is one of the most undercosted units in the entire game. I'd also like to mention that it moves through Terrain freely, is toughness 5 and if you ignore it, it breaths your entire battleline with S5 breath.

If I played Dark Elves, I'd take two in every game. There's ZERO reason not to. Absolutely none.


other then the fact that its :cheese::cheese::cheese::cheese:

Flamers and Hydras arent undercosted, they're BROKEN!

Bac5665
28-04-2009, 22:55
Winner: Black Guard!! (going by percent undercosted.)
If BG were 16 points apiece, people would still take them in almost the same number. Yet for some stupid, stupid reason, they are the same cost as a bloodletter. Someone playing their first game of warhammer ever could tell you which one is better.

Flamers are fine, as long as there's no more than one unit. The problem with flamers is that few armies have enough stuff to take out two separate units of them.

bob_the_small
28-04-2009, 23:11
Winner: Black Guard!! (going by percent undercosted.)
If BG were 16 points apiece, people would still take them in almost the same number. Yet for some stupid, stupid reason, they are the same cost as a bloodletter. Someone playing their first game of warhammer ever could tell you which one is better.

Flamers are fine, as long as there's no more than one unit. The problem with flamers is that few armies have enough stuff to take out two separate units of them.

BG are 13 points, but thats nit picking ;):angel::evilgrin:

Plus, because most DE units are unfathomably cheap, you can have a large army that is good at combat, shooting and magic, i prefered 6th ed DE where it required skill to win, (not that i dont build beardy armies... muahahahaha) :chrome:

the blind knight
29-04-2009, 05:00
Gnoblars.


No seriously.


I am not kidding.



For two points per model,they are awesome.You get a full ranked unit of 20 for slightly more than a Flamer.If they just stick around your back table quarter,while the rest of the army charges maniacly(as they should) and claim a quarter they paid themselves of 2.5 times.The Hydra has to kill 437,5 points to do that.

They dont cause panic,even in other gnoblars,have a almost decent shoting attack(40 shots at a Large target) and no matter how awesome your monster he still has to kill of 20 wounds at a -4 CR from the start.

Kevlar
29-04-2009, 06:00
Ratling gun is one of the best. The thing is just sick with the auto hits. It is better than the empire hellblaster for much less points.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-04-2009, 06:18
Ratling gun is one of the best. The thing is just sick with the auto hits. It is better than the empire hellblaster for much less points.

True, but the change in targetting rules hurt the ratling gun and comparing it to a helblaster is unfair. The helblaster has always been completely overrated and useful only because the opponent feared what it COULD do, never was it worth its points for what it actually did.

Draconian77
29-04-2009, 06:29
I saw this comming when the brother thread appeared and hoped it wouldnt emerge ^^

Its easily Flamers of Tzeentch in every single way.

Close runners;

Chaos Knights
Flesh hounds
Hydra
Black Guard
Skink skirmishers
Vargulf

This is a good list minus the Varg in my opinion.

What I would add though:

Empire Handgunner
Nurgle Herald
War Altar
Knights of the Realm(The 16pt core ones, my knowledge of the Bretonnian army book is somewhat lacking...)
Goblin Spear Chukka(35pts of win)
Dwarf "Spear Chukka"(45pts of slightly more reliable win)

PARTYCHICORITA
29-04-2009, 06:40
DE Hydra.

Close contest though with:
-Dryads
-Flamers
-Harpies
-Pegasus Knights
-Flesh hounds

Also very good (but not as good IMO):
-Night goblins
-Tomb scorpions
-Great eagles
-Black guard
-Ghouls

Kevlar
29-04-2009, 12:25
True, but the change in targetting rules hurt the ratling gun and comparing it to a helblaster is unfair. The helblaster has always been completely overrated and useful only because the opponent feared what it COULD do, never was it worth its points for what it actually did.

I don't know, I've had a helblaster misfire on the first shot and unload all nine barrels at me. Not a pretty sight! That was back in the old book though, the new version doesn't pack as much punch. You would think it would last longer since it doesn't have the 9 barrel limit, but it always seems to misfire long before it gets 9 shots off.

W0lf
29-04-2009, 14:03
The new helblaster is terrible. It practically always hits on 5's.

So roll a really lucky 30 shots!!! And you get roughly 10 Hits...

However your highly unlikely to roll 30 and if you do chance are is about to blow up anyway. Compare that to a Hydra that can easily get 10 S5 hits for 60 pts more...

Lordmonkey
29-04-2009, 14:15
if you ignore it, it breaths your entire battleline with S5 breath

How small is your battleline? Remember that it's only a flamer template...

Rolo Ramone
29-04-2009, 16:34
Knights of the Realm(The 16pt core ones, my knowledge of the Bretonnian army book is somewhat lacking...)



There are no Knights under 20 pts.

Mooglemen
29-04-2009, 16:44
My vote has to go to the Tomb Scorpion. I know what a bargain that thing is every time I take it. It's 85 points of pure murder... I take two every game.