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Awilla the Hun
28-04-2009, 18:11
Or, could a Space Marine Sergeant command a platoon of Guardsmen?

How do ranks compare between the Imperial Armies in terms of hierachy? I know that, technically, both Marine and Guard sergeants just command squads, but I doubt that the Guardsman would be anything like as respected in the upper ranks.

Is there anything official about this, though?

Iceheart2112
28-04-2009, 18:37
In proper, chain-of-command kind of command a Space Marine can't command an IG platoon, or squad, or anything. They are entirely separate structures. It would be like a Special Forces officer trying to command an FBI team.

However, in most cases the platoon would be all for being commanded by a Space Marine; they are demigods of legend, paragons of the Imperium, and ultimately more important than the entire platoon.

Col. Tartleton
28-04-2009, 18:43
If you want to the the 'Marines Are Awesome!' stance, then a Tactical Battle Brother would theoretically have more experience in the field and more understanding of tactics than some colonels... This is probably untrue, they're at least captains of the infantry though if not majors. A sergeant would probably compare to a Colonel or brigadier in terms of ability.

Darchangel
28-04-2009, 18:52
It depends on the nature of the mission--if their arrangement is to siege a given world, for example, then the Imperial Guard command would likely work together with a Space Marine Captain. The styles of combat would have a hard time mixing typically, so the Guard would do the grunt work with the marines called in to accomplish certain key objectives in a timely manner.

One of the nice things about SM background though is you can do anything with it, really. There could easily be chapters out there that often work in concert with guard forces more directly to accomplish objectives--look at pre-heresy Alpha Legion.

For inspiration, read Dan Abnett's Legion or the Imperial Armour books. I'm thinking of The Taros Campaign specifically.

NightrawenII
28-04-2009, 19:32
Depending on how do you describe *command*.

Space marine taking place of guard officer = very unlikely.
Space Marine giving *advices* to guard officer = most possible.

edit: Aphelion project is better in this case.

Lord_Crull
28-04-2009, 19:44
If you want to the the 'Marines Are Awesome!' stance, then a Tactical Battle Brother would theoretically have more experience in the field and more understanding of tactics than some colonels... This is probably untrue, they're at least captains of the infantry though if not majors. A sergeant would probably compare to a Colonel or brigadier in terms of ability.

No, it depends on the person. A lime marine that has been in power armor for six years would have less experiance than a major that has fought for fifty years in the Guard, even is he could snap the Major in half.

Marines are chosen from the toughest specimens, not nessesarily the smartest or most talented. Many marines out thier are master tacticans, so are many Guard. Look at Creed for example.

Theunhappystonetroll
28-04-2009, 20:15
I think it also depends on the mission and organisation of the mission: e.g. to liberate a world the Ultramarines are sent in with and army of Imperial Guardsmen, if the high command places the Guard under command of, say, Sicarius, he can 'command' them.

Another example: during the 3rd War for Armegeddon I can see a high command containing Space marine commanders, guard officers, naval represantatives etc being the high command. And even though Space marines and Imperial Guard fight alongside eachother, each will have their officers/captains leading them. It wouldn't be logical to place every space marine above the chain of command of the Imperial Guard.

Brother Siccarius
28-04-2009, 20:50
Or, could a Space Marine Sergeant command a platoon of Guardsmen?

How do ranks compare between the Imperial Armies in terms of hierachy? I know that, technically, both Marine and Guard sergeants just command squads, but I doubt that the Guardsman would be anything like as respected in the upper ranks.

Is there anything official about this, though?

No, Marines are not allowed to be in charge of or over any elements of the Imperial Army. They did very naughty things with them back in the Heresy, so they had to have their toys taken away.

The Imperial Navy is in no way over the Imperial Army, except in matters of space. The Navy has to do what the Army says in terms of where to go, but the Navy decides how you get there and what the ships do once they arrive.

The Munitorium is just the Bureaucratic arm of the Imperial Army, so has no say over the other branches.

Sisters of Battle are part of the Ecclisiarchy, so cannot lead Imperial Guard, or Marines as it would violate their restrictions against "Men under arms" from the Age of Apostacy. Though an Inquisitor with obvious connections to the Ecclisiarchy could be over both of them (He could be wearing blessed underwear on his head and the robes of a High Ecclisiarch for shoes, and otherwise naked, and be fine because he's an Inquisitor).

Inquisition is the Trump Card. Because, like Patriotism back in the 50-60s and Religion before that, big fancy guys questioning your motives and good intentions leads to bad things.

Commissars get to poke their heads into everything Imperial Army and Navy wise, though they aren't leaders.

Condottiere
28-04-2009, 21:30
In the Marine and IG example, a Marine sergeant could make suggestions, and even a Captain would listen to them seriously, and in likelihood, follow them. It takes a strong and confident personality to withstand such advice.

But unless an Officer with sufficient authority states that his subordinates are to follow the orders of a Marine, they can totally ignore him.

AlexCage
28-04-2009, 21:44
Officially no Marine would have Guardsmen directly under him, save for maybe a high commader of a war with guard Generals following his directives (even then, I'm sure GHC would have alot of leeway as far as intrepretation of orders). And the opposite is probably just as true for Guardsmen commanding Marines.

In practice I could see this happening quite a bit in theatres where marines and guardsmen are serving together. A battle-brother seconded to an Imperial Guard regiment for whatever reason (to bolster their combat prowess, to provide tactical advice, or simply as a Marine Liason) could conceivably be given (or assume) command of a squad or platoon for an engagement or maybe an operation, but nothing long-term.

I'm sure there are cases where a Marine would try to take command by force (especially those pompus ass captains), but this would be frowned upon by anybody but a Marine. Regardless of popularity, there've got to be situations where it's effective, but still only short-term.

A Marine as an acting Guard commander is going to attract unwanted attention from Inquisitorial forces, for sure. That's how rebellions are started, you know.

I also don't see the pride of the Marines allowing them to follow the orders of some Lieutenant or Captain in the Guard, especially in the field of battle.

Ex-guest
29-04-2009, 02:09
I agree with the point made that Marines have no 'offical/legal authority' over any Imperial Guard force. I'm sure the Codex Astates or Imperialis probably states something along those lines.

However they're mere phyiscal presence or sheer experience or reputation may cause IG commanders to hand overall command to say a Space Marine Captian or Chapter Master.
Though the same goes the other way round. A Warmaster might have no legal authority over Astartes but i see no reason why in some circumstances that a mere mortal of high standing couldn't nominally command a Space Marine to do something if not have his intent respected by Marines.

Creed is a good example. He has offical command of any forces operating within the Cadian system (maybe even sector) and of any and all Cadian regiments in the Imperium.
Yet Logan Grimmnar has assumed/been given command of the Astartes. I'd say they co-operate with each other to achieve an effective out-come.

Inquisitors are another breed altogether. They have the Inqusitorial Mandate which effectivly gives them the "legal authority' to command/commandeer any force for which he/she may deem neceessary for the task at hand. Though they in some situations may not have the circumstantial or physical authority to order people around.

Any Imperial commander/Chapter Master/IG Colonel/AM Magos can refuse to assist any request by a Inqusitor but the consequences are that the Inquisitor is within legal parameters to summeraly excecute the person refusing. But the Inquistor would have to think of the physical or political consequences of doing so. 1000 pissed off marines or 10,000 guardsmen loyal to their now dead commander might have something to say about his execution.

In many cases I imagine it would be favours based. 'You scratch my back, i'll scratch yours'. I bet Slaydo had to call in a few favours from the Iron Snakes, Imperial Fists and the other chapter that fought in the Sabbat Worlds. Much in the same way he had to do the same with the AdMech. I suggest reading the two Background books by Abbnett. The Sabbatt's World Cursade and the other one who's title escapes me. You know the brown one Famous Victories or something.

And that's my contribution to the discussion.

Avaron
29-04-2009, 02:38
even within the IG the command are not that simple, things like infantry commanders automaticly out rank tank commanders.

you dont really see any of them under eachothers command any more than you see soldiers from diffrent branches working together like that.

it should also be noted that space marine chapters are not actualy part of the imperial millitary they are apart from it and dont answer directly to either the high lords of terra or inquisitors, though they do work hard to keep good relations with both.

also it should be noted that Yes space marines are taken from the smartest people on the planet they are recruited and screened from the best of the best at everything they may not actualy be geniuses but none of the should actualy be stupid even the dumb marines are above avarage.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 00:30
What happens when a crusade is decided? Army crusade group is some sort of amalgame of space marines, navy, imperial guard and eventually inquisatorial units. But who's in command? Myabe we could find some answer in the armaggedon campaign codex.

Ex-guest
01-05-2009, 00:49
Generally a Warmaster or Lord Militant is in command of a crusade. Again the Space Marines are not legally allowed to command other forces of the Imperium. The Departmento Munitorium and the High Lords would essentaily choose who leads it.

Condottiere
01-05-2009, 08:15
In any case, a Chapter Master is more invaluable directing forces on a tactical level, rather than sitting in his office and wading through bureucracy.

Think of a Marine as Jack Bauer with onsite temporary command of available forces (or at least an advisory role), making decisions in the field.

Lothlanathorian
01-05-2009, 10:00
And the Space Marines do what the Space Marines want to do. They choose if they want to help or not and then they choose how they are going to do that.

Now, that doesn't mean they won't sit down and work together with everyone and play nice and all that, but they don't have to if they want.

Shadowlance
02-05-2009, 11:05
i think i remember reading somewhere that after the Horus heresy, with guillmens codex astartes and many other things like that forbade differeant branches taking control of another. that dosent mean it stops it.

like in battle most of the time an imperial commander would take advice from a Space marines but not oders. if the commander dies though who do you think they would turn to for leadership...

also on another matter the inquisiton can order imperial commanders to help them in battles but not space marines though. space marines are considered self governing, though out of peer pressure they would usualy accept a request from an inquisitor

laudarkul
02-05-2009, 11:11
I see that =][= can give command to High Rank Imperial Guard Officer...
A SM sergeant can give an order to a High Rank IG Officer because it seems that always when a SM Squad/Squads are on the battlefield with an Imperial Amry, Guard commanders are more then happy to have them and usually prefer to adapt their tactics to take advantage of the SM...
If an =][= Lord is persuassive enough he can gave an order to a SM squad; of course this depend also on the SM Chapter involved (if they have a good relation with Inquisition or not).
My 2 cents.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
02-05-2009, 12:59
Marines do not command IG. The highest ranking Marine at the warzone is typically included in the Lord-General / High Marshal's War council though.

(ref: Star of Damocles, two Marine Sgts were included in the war council because they were the highest ranking Adeptus Astrates in the Damocles Gulf Crusade)


What occurs in the war council will probably vary depending on the chapter and General's attitude. Some chapters may walk in there with a battle plan and the General will follow it. Other times it may be the other way around or one side refuses to follow the plans.

With the said, I remember reading somewhere that the Ultramarines will often work closely with the Maccarage PDF / raised IG regiments. Due to the general Marine lovefest going on in Ultramar, they probably have no problems suggesting battle plans to any Maccarage IG / PDF forces who will readily follow them.

Solar_Eclipse
02-05-2009, 15:49
I would NOT want a marine in charge ofme if i was a Guardsmen.

How often has a marine been in charge of a Guard force? We arent supermen. He will have no idea on how to handle a guard force and will end up getting us all butchered.

Condottiere
02-05-2009, 17:18
A run of the mill commissar may find any assault plan thought up by a SM to be precisely what he had in mind for the troops under his care.

Brother Siccarius
03-05-2009, 15:53
A run of the mill commissar may find any assault plan thought up by a SM to be precisely what he had in mind for the troops under his care.

But of course, Commissars don't usually devise assault plans. They're usually kept at arms length, or allowed in at the meetings.

The two contrary examples are under special circumstances, because the books aren't written about things under normal circumstances.

38.
03-05-2009, 18:48
Marines are entirely separate. They have to be petitioned to fight in a war. He could give advice. But likely his advice wouldnt take into count mortal limits of regular guardsmen.

I also think a marine would find it hard to motivate guardsmen. Marines seem to motivated by honour and shame in failing. Guardmen direct punishment, considering they are mostly drafted and have commisars.

jonnyrawkus
03-05-2009, 19:12
Interaction between almost all the imperial factions comes down to one thing: politics