PDA

View Full Version : Krieg vitae womb technique



Krieg Marshall
29-04-2009, 00:26
Second post ever on this forum, and I'm still not really sure if I post in the right place. If not I humbly ask the inquisition to delete this plog.

Well, I've been looking a bit around to find something about the "vitae womb birthing technique" used on the Krieg planet,to produce soldiers (the reference could be found in the imperial armour book n5 page 87).

But nothing very conclusive came out. So I simply check on the internet word by word what It could mean.

Vitae: life or way of life.
Womb: I guess every english speaking person knows what It is.

It could simply means the "life throught the womb"... The vitae womb birthing technique would still need a human element and can't be replaced by a machine, as some suggested. There is still women on Krieg but.

They must be subject to some kind of invitro insemination on very high scale, every women must give birth to at least one boy child and the second child should be a girl in order to conserve the men women ratio.

Another sub question, It's mentionned on the same page of two different organisation: The Adeptus biologis and the Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis. The second one is well known, but the first one...Personnally I've not clue.
Could It be somekind of medical civil section? The one who keeps an eye on the "production" of Krieg trooper?

If anyone have anything to add, any observation or bits of information I'll be greatfull to read It.

projectkmo
29-04-2009, 00:40
This page has some Player Made Fluff that sounds good...makes sense etc...
http://www.darkreign40k.com/new-packages/complete-advanced-character-package-afrieli-strain-guar.html

specifically the part....

"had to be imprinted on blank human ova and either grown in Vitae-Womb tanks, or implanted in womb-servitors, mindwiped human females used solely to act as birth mothers for the infant Afrielis."

sounds like a viable explanation and perhaps this person knows something more about vitae-wombs than we do here....yet.

Zahr Dalsk
29-04-2009, 00:57
I'm under the impression that the AdMech are the ones who gave them the tech, in which case it's most likely standard cloning tanks.

Idaan
29-04-2009, 09:51
The vitai womb or womb of life is exactly what Lebensborn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn) means in German. Though Lebensborn was a mating technique and Vitai Womb is a birthing technique, so probably they aren't the same.

Krieg Marshall
29-04-2009, 11:44
Thanks a lot for all suggestions,

@ projectkmo: I've found the same piece of fluff when I was looking around for the meanning of the technique, but the person how wrote this interesting piece talk about something which isn't specific to Krieg. But I'm must say that piece is quiet interesting, and it could give us a trail for further investigations

@ Zahr Dalsk: The Admech is the representation of the god machine, the question was what's the Adeptus biologis? If I remember well cloning is prohibited in the imperium, except on Mars were Techno Magos use this technique to mantain their upper hand over their technological secrets.
On Krieg there must be an other technique which is tolerated by the Techno Magos of mars. I don't think that the representatives of the will of the god machine are really the type of person how would share their secrets...
Do you think that the Adeptus biologis could be an other organisation, related to the Administratum?

@ Idaan: I've been looking for the meaning of "mating" and I found it was in the title of a book of Geoffrey Miller called "Mating mind". It describs the 17 points or more likely, the phases of sexual attraction...I'm not really sure there is a lot of love affairs going on Krieg. But It could make an intersting story, the secret love of a kriegan trooper and invitro wombing woman...

Zahr Dalsk
29-04-2009, 13:48
The Admech is the representation of the god machine

The Adeptus Mechanicus use cloning vats for various servitors and soldiers.


the question was what's the Adeptus biologis?

Part of the Adeptus Mechanicus.


If I remember well cloning is prohibited in the imperium

The Adeptus Mechanicus aren't technically part of the Imperium, they are allies. There's no cloning in the Imperium because the AdMech keep it to themselves, but if I recall correctly they maintain the facilities on Krieg.

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 10:35
@ Zahr Dalsk: I didn't know that the Adeptus Mechanicus use to clone soldiers, the Skitarii are clones? Aren't they cyborgs?

But, there is the Adeptus mechanicus Biologis and the Adeptus Biologis. On page 87 of the IA 5 they're both mantionned. I think that They're maybe two different organisations because the first is quiet against the vitae womb technique and the second one mantain the facilities on Krieg.

That's why I suggested that maybe the Adeptus Biologis was related to the Administratum which rules Krieg.

Col. Dash
30-04-2009, 12:43
The Adeptus Mechanicus might have used to be an ally but now its another department like any other Adeptus. Servitor wombs? Wow they have been reading Frank Herbert books I see, didnt know they were that well read. in one of the Blood Angel books they are using real tanks to produce cloned troops, which fails when Fabius infiltrates the facility in the disguise of an Adeptus Biologis important person.

Sai-Lauren
30-04-2009, 14:38
This did come up a while back.

My personal feeling is that it's some kind of artificial embryo support medium, so that a foetus could be grown outside of the womb, and get nutrients/toxins removed via a form of dialysis. (I think the main reasons we couldn't do it now, even with animals, are ethical ones rather than major technological ones).

IMO, when a child is born on Kreig, they're kept in fallout bunkers until they reach adulthood, at which point they get checked for genetic purity, have at least one of their ovaries/testes removed for returning into the vitae wombs, and are then sent out to whatever - be it outside of the bunkers on Krieg itself, or into the imperial guard.

The ovaries are then treated to mature and release all the ova, and the testes hormonally stimulated to generate as many spermatazoa as possible, with the resulting genetic matter taken from all available sources, mixed up by source gender and then mixed together and used to generate the next cycle of children (don't think there's really time for any in depth eugenics style compatability matching - anyone who doesn't pass genetic testing during development is extracted from the vitae womb and aborted, anyone who doesn't post-birth is thrown out on the surface of Krieg to die).

Kind of thinking out loud, the Adeptus Biologis could be a part of the Administratum (Adeptus Administratum Biologis), with responsibility for monitoring mutation rates, especially on worlds with high levels of mutagens (chemicals, radiation, warp-influence etc).

Who's responsible for monitoring the levels of psykers (as in which Administratum department, not "the planetary governors" ;))?

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 20:45
Thanks a lot for your replies and interest into this plog,


The Adeptus Mechanicus might have used to be an ally but now its another department like any other Adeptus. Servitor wombs? Wow they have been reading Frank Herbert books I see, didnt know they were that well read. in one of the Blood Angel books they are using real tanks to produce cloned troops, which fails when Fabius infiltrates the facility in the disguise of an Adeptus Biologis important person.

Servitors wombs, that's quiet disgusting, but it fits perfectlly the low ethic of krieg.

I've never heard about clones (exept on Mars) in the 40K universe before. Do you have the name of the book? I'm quiet interested about it.


This did come up a while back.

My personal feeling is that it's some kind of artificial embryo support medium, so that a foetus could be grown outside of the womb, and get nutrients/toxins removed via a form of dialysis. (I think the main reasons we couldn't do it now, even with animals, are ethical ones rather than major technological ones).

IMO, when a child is born on Kreig, they're kept in fallout bunkers until they reach adulthood, at which point they get checked for genetic purity, have at least one of their ovaries/testes removed for returning into the vitae wombs, and are then sent out to whatever - be it outside of the bunkers on Krieg itself, or into the imperial guard.

The ovaries are then treated to mature and release all the ova, and the testes hormonally stimulated to generate as many spermatazoa as possible, with the resulting genetic matter taken from all available sources, mixed up by source gender and then mixed together and used to generate the next cycle of children (don't think there's really time for any in depth eugenics style compatability matching - anyone who doesn't pass genetic testing during development is extracted from the vitae womb and aborted, anyone who doesn't post-birth is thrown out on the surface of Krieg to die).

Kind of thinking out loud, the Adeptus Biologis could be a part of the Administratum (Adeptus Administratum Biologis), with responsibility for monitoring mutation rates, especially on worlds with high levels of mutagens (chemicals, radiation, warp-influence etc).

Who's responsible for monitoring the levels of psykers (as in which Administratum department, not "the planetary governors" ;))?

"embryo support medium" I don't really get the meanning of the sentence, please pardon my level of english. If you can explain what it means I'll be greatfull. Is it some kind of artificial fluid similar to the real foetal fluid?

I've been thinking quiet the same about the Adeptus Biologis.

"Who's responsible for monitoring the levels of psykers (as in which Administratum department, not "the planetary governors" ;))?"
Isn't the Inquisition how's in charge of monitoring the number of psykers?

I've got maybe another theory. Could the clone women on Krieg? I mean on Krieg they need a lot of men, cloning is prohibited in the imperium exept on Mars. They select men spermatozoas, inject them in cloned women wombs and voila. It could be a way to preseve biodiversity.

Zahr Dalsk
30-04-2009, 20:51
@ Zahr Dalsk: I didn't know that the Adeptus Mechanicus use to clone soldiers, the Skitarii are clones? Aren't they cyborgs

A cyborg is someone with an artificial modification, such as a prosthetic limb or an implant. That can easily be a clone as well, thus there's nothing stopping cloned humans to be upgraded and used as Skitarii.

Praetorians in particular are usually made artificially with vat-grown giants, though sometimes they use Ogryn instead.

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 21:27
@Zahr Dulsk: I thought cloning was only for important personnalities on Mars, because It's considered like a holy vestige of the technological dark age. Do you think they could use this technique on simple men?

I must say I'm quiet sceptical about this one. I'm more likley to think that if Sktarii are cyborgs, why do they will need to clone them. I mean If 3/4 of an organic body is replaced by mechanical parts would they really need to clone the organic parts to upgrade it? It sounds a bit strange don't you think?

But I'm maybe wrong:D.

Zahr Dalsk
30-04-2009, 21:44
I must say I'm quiet sceptical about this one. I'm more likley to think that if Sktarii are cyborgs, why do they will need to clone them.

Do you actually know what a cyborg is? We have many cyborgs in modern day earth.


I mean If 3/4 of an organic body is replaced by mechanical parts would they really need to clone the organic parts to upgrade it?

Because AdMech make all advanced machines with a human component. Servitors, Titans, etc. The only pure robots they make are extremely simple and aren't intelligent. They do not permit AI. Therefore there must be a biological base onto which the machine is applied.

Horus38
30-04-2009, 21:52
[LEFT]
"embryo support medium" I don't really get the meanning of the sentence, please pardon my level of english. If you can explain what it means I'll be greatfull. Is it some kind of artificial fluid similar to the real foetal fluid?

Your guess is basically correct: some kind of fluid in which embryos can be successfully grown in.

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 21:57
@Horus38: Thanks a lot.

Idaan
30-04-2009, 21:58
I've got maybe another theory. Could the clone women on Krieg? I mean on Krieg they need a lot of men, cloning is prohibited in the imperium exept on Mars. They select men spermatozoas, inject them in cloned women wombs and voila. It could be a way to preseve biodiversity.
There's no reason that they couldn't use women as soldiers too. You can't really tell under the gasmasks and long thick rubberised coats.

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 22:18
There's no reason that they couldn't use women as soldiers too. You can't really tell under the gasmasks and long thick rubberised coats.

I more inclined to say that women are too precious to be trown into the field. Keeping the women safe at home is a way to preserve biodiversity. That's why I'm not really covinced about the cloning theory for a few reasons.

When you clone someone, you use the same DNA, is more like doing a copy of something, nothing is new, and more you copy something, worst the copy comes out (well I shall use an other term instead of copy). That's why you should use another technique, add diversity in the DNA to make It stronger.

The second reason, is if you use the DNA of someone, the clone would have the same genetical age as the person how gaved the DNA sample. Imagine the man you've cloned is aged of 40 years old the clone would be genecally aged of 40 years eaven if It's born two days ago, when He'll be 20 years old his internal organs would be 60 years old.

And, if vitae womb technique was nothing more than producing soldier the same old way, but every women on Krieg would produce twins a boy and a girl? Everything under the assistance and scrutiny of the Adeptus Biologis.

Zahr Dalsk
30-04-2009, 22:29
When you clone someone, you use the same DNA, is more like doing a copy of something, nothing is new, and more you copy something, worst the copy comes out (well I shall use an other term instead of copy). That's why you should use another technique, add diversity in the DNA to make It stronger.

The 501st Legion would like a word with you.


The second reason, is if you use the DNA of someone, the clone would have the same genetical age as the person how gaved the DNA sample. Imagine the man you've cloned is aged of 40 years old the clone would be genecally aged of 40 years eaven if It's born two days ago, when He'll be 20 years old his internal organs would be 60 years old.

I facepalmed. Did you sleep through biology?

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 22:45
Zahr Dalsk: First, should I take this as a menace?:confused:
Second, I'm wrong, and if it's the case please correct. Otherwise biology isn't my field of expertise (I study politic science:D)

Zahr Dalsk
30-04-2009, 22:58
Zahr Dalsk: First, should I take this as a menace?:confused:

Pointing out that there's no disadvantage to an army of identical soldiers. Are you familiar with the 501st Clone Legion from SWBF2?


Second, I'm wrong, and if it's the case please correct.

DNA does not "change with age." Unless you intentionally accelerate your clone's growth, it will grow exactly the same as any other child.

Spider-pope
30-04-2009, 23:16
Pointing out that there's no disadvantage to an army of identical soldiers. Are you familiar with the 501st Clone Legion from SWBF2?
DNA does not "change with age." Unless you intentionally accelerate your clone's growth, it will grow exactly the same as any other child.

He may be confused because of the whole Dolly the sheeps supposed "premature age-ing" thing (actually caused by a common Sheep ailment called Jaagsiekte), plus pretty much every sci-fi production that features cloning.

The whole cloning a clone has probably been fixed by 40k, even if they dont really know how they have done it.

EDIT: Plus Kudos on the 501st. Got a few friends in the Legion.

Krieg Marshall
30-04-2009, 23:33
@ Zahr Dalsk: Cloning is prohibited in the imperium, the only persons how has the right to do use this technique are the Magos of Mars. I don't believe that the krieg soldiers are clones, the IA5 won't use a complicated term such as vitae womb birthing technique instead of cloning, which I believe is quiet simple to understand.

The second thing is that you don't have biodiversity. A clone tends to be weaker than the original and particulary exposed to infection and flu.

In Star Wars the things are quiet different, pepole aren't affraid of technology and isn't the monopole of a few maniacs living on the red planet decades after decades. The 501st clone legion, are genecally modified and rose up faster. But nothing is said on how They do it.

Dolly, had the same DNA age as the sample. Check it on the internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)#Life; the problem is the difference between the french and the english version of article). Dolly was 6 years old when she birth.

Spider-pope
30-04-2009, 23:50
@ Zahr Dalsk: Cloning is prohibited in the imperium, the only persons how has the right to do use this technique are the Magos of Mars. I don't believe that the krieg soldiers are clones, the IA5 won't use a complicated term such as vitae womb birthing technique instead of cloning, which I believe is quiet simple to understand.

The second thing is that you don't have biodiversity. A clone tends to be weaker than the original and particulary exposed to infection and flu.

In Star Wars the things are quiet different, pepole aren't affraid of technology and isn't the monopole of a few maniacs living on the red planet decades after decades. The 501st clone legion, are genecally modified and rose up faster. But nothing is said on how They do it.

Dolly, had the same DNA age as the sample. Check it on the internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)#Life; the problem is the difference between the french and the english version of article). Dolly was 6 years old when she birth.

Read further along in the Wiki article bub, the post mortem examination of Dolly showed no evidence of rapid ageing, she was no older when born than any sheep born naturally. The old-age like symptoms she suffered from before death were caused by Jaagsiekte.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 00:01
Read further along in the Wiki article bub, the post mortem examination of Dolly showed no evidence of rapid ageing, she was no older when born than any sheep born naturally. The old-age like symptoms she suffered from before death were caused by Jaagsiekte.

As said before, there is a lot of differences between the english and french article. But if you've got any proof that there is no reasonable reason to think that pre aging of clones isn't plausible tell me.

And hell why when I post something I've got always someone going against... I'm turning emo:cries:

Spider-pope
01-05-2009, 01:20
As said before, there is a lot of differences between the english and french article. But if you've got any proof that there is no reasonable reason to think that pre aging of clones isn't plausible tell me.

And hell why when I post something I've got always someone going against... I'm turning emo:cries:

Extensive testing revealed shorter telomeres being present, which is most often a result of ageing, but there was no conclusive proof that it had any impact on Dolly or her life expectancy. If you want more detail i suggest reading the articles that the Roslin institute published rather than the wiki.
No-one has said its not plausible to be able to create a process to produce aged clones, but standard cloning doesnt produce that result, a clone is not the same age as whatever its a clone of, any more than if you cloned someone it would be the same person.

And seriously, stop taking things personally. This is a forum for discussion, people will disagree with your opinion, thats the point. If we all agreed with whatever the first person to post said, things would get dull real quick. The internet is not out to get you. Honest.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 01:34
And seriously, stop taking things personally. This is a forum for discussion, people will disagree with your opinion, thats the point. If we all agreed with whatever the first person to post said, things would get dull real quick. The internet is not out to get you. Honest.

I was just jocking, I don't ask anyone to agree with me. I'm just trying to find some answers to the question. If can give me the meaning of the sentence "The internet is not out to get you. Honest".

Zahr Dalsk
01-05-2009, 01:49
@ Zahr Dalsk: Cloning is prohibited in the imperium

That's nice, dearie, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is an allied empire. Cloning is forbidden because they don't give away the technology; they aren't prevented from using it themselves.


I don't believe that the krieg soldiers are clones, the IA5 won't use a complicated term such as vitae womb birthing technique instead of cloning, which I believe is quiet simple to understand.

Vitae Womb Birthing sounds cooler than "cloning." Rule of Cool.


The second thing is that you don't have biodiversity. A clone tends to be weaker than the original and particulary exposed to infection and flu.

Not when you can tinker with the clone's biological outcome.


In Star Wars the things are quiet different, pepole aren't affraid of technology and isn't the monopole of a few maniacs living on the red planet decades after decades. The 501st clone legion, are genecally modified and rose up faster. But nothing is said on how They do it.

And I used them as an example of how there's no reason why a cloned army wouldn't work. I don't need to prove that the AdMech has cloning techniques because we already know they do.

InquisitorNiels
01-05-2009, 03:45
Servitor wombs? Wow they have been reading Frank Herbert books I see, didnt know they were that well read.

When I read the thread this was the first thing that came to mind. To explain this a little more for the OP the Bene Tleiaxu in the Dune books are the masters of genetics. They can make gholas (clones) from the cells of the dead that look 100% the same as the person they were taken from. They even manage to create a technique to restore the gholas original memories. Any way, back on track. To create all these genetic miracles the use what is called an axlotl tank. But it's not what you would think of as a tank, instead it was basically a women, more importantly her womb that was hooked up to produce a controllable environment to make all manner of stuff from clones, spare body parts, face dancers, and a number of other things using genetic manipulation.

I dont see why the Imperium would not be able to do something similar. We have super human soldiers, created from the gene-seed of even greater super humans.

I can't comment of the cell age of a clone since I don't have a clue, but if I remember correctly when you clone something what you do is take the DNA of something and place it into the cell of the newly formed embryo (what ever the one cell bit is called) so when it started to multiply and divide you have your clone. The cells would then be new, and fresh.

Now assuming you can create clones, either by placing them in a regular female and letting her come to term naturally, or in some sort of sci-fi womb and have perfected the technique you can make your soldiers. To solve the problem of biodiversity all you have to do is start mixing genes. We know the Imperium is able to play with genes so it stands to reason that they would be able to mix and match genes in effect picking the "mother" and "father".

But why bother? If you are simply growing more soldiers you wouldn't be worried about biodiversity. You want more boots on the ground, plain and simple. If after the conflict is over and you need more genetic diversity then you can ship in people from other worlds to solve that problem.

Grimbad
01-05-2009, 05:03
When I read the thread this was the first thing that came to mind. To explain this a little more for the OP the Bene Tleiaxu in the Dune books are the masters of genetics. They can make gholas (clones) from the cells of the dead that look 100% the same as the person they were taken from. They even manage to create a technique to restore the gholas original memories. Any way, back on track. To create all these genetic miracles the use what is called an axlotl tank. But it's not what you would think of as a tank, instead it was basically a women, more importantly her womb that was hooked up to produce a controllable environment to make all manner of stuff from clones, spare body parts, face dancers, and a number of other things using genetic manipulation.

I was about to write this very paragraph.
Mindless frankenmommies that might as well be machines.

Sai-Lauren
01-05-2009, 09:12
"embryo support medium" I don't really get the meanning of the sentence, please pardon my level of english. If you can explain what it means I'll be greatfull. Is it some kind of artificial fluid similar to the real foetal fluid?

Ok, quick refresher on mammalian reproduction.

Ova and spermatazoa meet, spermatazoa bores into ova, injects dna, which combines with that in the ova, fertilising it and triggering mitotic cellular division. Ova is now a blastomere.

The blastomere implants into uterine wall, and continues dividing until it's a ball of cells. At a certain point, these cells start to differentiate based on their position in the blastomere, the ones furthest into the uterine wall becoming the placenta, and the rest forming the baby.

The amniotic sac and fluid are also created by the blastomere IIRC.

What I was thinking of was either an artifical uterine wall, or a gel-like substance that the embryos could be physically implanted into - either of which would have a dialysis type system pumping an oxygenated nutrient fluid into it that the developed placentas could pick up those nutrients from, and dump toxins/co2 etc into.



Isn't the Inquisition how's in charge of monitoring the number of psykers?

Depends how big you think the Inquisition is - personally, I doubt it. The Administratum's big enough, and it is effectively an administration task.



I've got maybe another theory. Could the clone women on Krieg? I mean on Krieg they need a lot of men, cloning is prohibited in the imperium exept on Mars. They select men spermatozoas, inject them in cloned women wombs and voila. It could be a way to preseve biodiversity.
Doubtful, aside from genetic stagnation, you're likely to start getting mutations creeping in during the cloning process.

More likely they just mix the ova and spermatazoa, and let random chance say whether each child is a boy of girl.

archont
01-05-2009, 10:19
Zahr Dalks:

No wrong hating, when he said, that a clone is as old as the guy giving the genetic material for the clone to develop, he is right.

Chromosomes become shorter over the time one lives, for men much stronger than for women, since women's chromosomes are capable of interchanging information and thus preserving their whole and intact Chromosome for a longer time.

What he said was simply the reason, why Dolly died at young age: If you take the DNS of a very old specimen, the clone will have the same short chromosomes. So although it's body might look young, his DNS in fact, isnt.



Now, however, Invitro as a replacement for cloning is something I believe in. Cloningtech would be something very hard to maintain on a stable level, we have problems with it nowadays (although ways have been found to reverse the aging process in chromosomes), so Invitro would be more likely.

What I imagine to happen is a woman being insaminated on Krieg, the Embryo growing for a month or so before being removed from the mothers womb into some kind of growingtank, where it can mature, while the former mother is insaminated again.

endless
01-05-2009, 10:54
The Adeptus Mechanicus use cloning vats for various servitors and soldiers.
Source? I don't think cloning really fits the Imperium's background. Human beings are the one, near limitless, resource it has. Why would they need to artificially create more? As for the Vitae Womb, IA 5 implies that the technology was created before the Adeptus Mechanicus arrived.
@ the OP, as far as I know the idea hasn't been elaborated on further.

Gustovic
01-05-2009, 11:17
If you read the IA V, the book says that they are cloned.
In the Imperium is illegal, but they are cloned (Krieg)

endless
01-05-2009, 11:39
Do you have a page reference? As this is kind of the point of the thread. The 'Vitae Womb technique ' is not detailed, we don't know what it is. IA V, afaik, doesn't say that the Korpsmen are cloned, simply that they are produced by said technique.

Zahr Dalsk
01-05-2009, 12:47
I don't think cloning really fits the Imperium's background.

The Adeptus Mechanicus aren't the Imperium.

And yes, they use artificial birth:

http://secteur-calixis.fr/docs/Mechanicus_Explorator_Warbands.pdf

Examine the creation of Praetorians and Haemoncolytes. What do you think vat growth is?

Sai-Lauren
01-05-2009, 13:09
Chromosomes become shorter over the time one lives, for men much stronger than for women, since women's chromosomes are capable of interchanging information and thus preserving their whole and intact Chromosome for a longer time.

Telomeres http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

They're end sections of DNA that don't get copied during mitosis - once they're all gone, that becomes the signal for the cell's self-destruct system to kick in.



Now, however, Invitro as a replacement for cloning is something I believe in. Cloningtech would be something very hard to maintain on a stable level, we have problems with it nowadays (although ways have been found to reverse the aging process in chromosomes), so Invitro would be more likely.

Invitro means in glass, and as we understand it today (the full name is In Vitro Fertilisation), that would still mean the blastomere gets implanted into someone to carry it to term - which would effectively limit them to at most the number of women on Krieg per year (multiple births can be more risky, and even with the best medical care and propaganda, not every woman will be able or willing to give birth and immediately be implanted with the next blastomere), and reduce the available work force for other tasks. The women will also have to be protected from mutagens etc, which could affect the unborn child.

My vision of it is more EUFG - Ex-Utero Fertilisation and Gestation. ;)

Maybe "natural" child birth could be considered a reward for exemplary service on Krieg

Gustovic
01-05-2009, 13:11
I think that is page 87

endless
01-05-2009, 13:57
pg. 87 is indeed where the Vitae womb is referenced, but there's no mention of cloning.


The Adeptus Mechanicus aren't the Imperium. But the Deathkorps are.


And yes, they use artificial birth:

http://secteur-calixis.fr/docs/Mecha...r_Warbands.pdf

Examine the creation of Praetorians and Haemoncolytes. What do you think vat growth is? Well, it could mean any number of things, not necessarily cloning.:o The description of Haemoncolytes doesn't fit well with a genetically identical being either. Artificially created beings, sure. Clones? That seems to be a supposition on your part.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 16:21
So where are we?

It seems that there is two point of view.

The first one, says that Krieg troopers are clones, eaven if it prohibited in the imperium and it's the peronal privilege of the old maniacs of Mars.
The second one, seems to say that no, Krieg troopers aren't clones, for a certain number of reasons. But, we are not able yet to figure out what the hell that vitae womb birthing technique.

But I can feel we are getting somewhere...

Thanks for to everyone interest.

P.S. Someone should phone Kinrade.

Zahr Dalsk
01-05-2009, 16:26
But the Deathkorps are.

1. Death Korps, not "deathkorps."
2. The AdMech can give them technology. The Imperium clearly hasn't seen a problem with it, so there's no reason why they wouldn't, save their own personal choice.


Well, it could mean any number of things, not necessarily cloning.:o The description of Haemoncolytes doesn't fit well with a genetically identical being either.

I'm using cloning as a blanket term to describe artificial fetal development and birth, since I unfortunately don't know any other conveniently short term for it. They take DNA, or various sets of it, alter if needed, and then create new copies from that DNA. If you have a better word for it, do please let me know.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 16:51
1. I'm using cloning as a blanket term to describe artificial fetal development and birth, since I unfortunately don't know any other conveniently short term for it. They take DNA, or various sets of it, alter if needed, and then create new copies from that DNA. If you have a better word for it, do please let me know.

What aout gene manipulation? I know it's not shorter, but fits better your idea. I guess.

Zahr Dalsk
01-05-2009, 16:54
What aout gene manipulation? I know it's not shorter, but fits better your idea. I guess.

But gene manipulation can easily be done with a child that's being born naturally. Gene manipulation doesn't imply artificial development and birth in the way cloning (in sci-fi, not real life) usually does.

Sai-Lauren
01-05-2009, 16:56
I'm using cloning as a blanket term to describe artificial fetal development and birth, since I unfortunately don't know any other conveniently short term for it. They take DNA, or various sets of it, alter if needed, and then create new copies from that DNA. If you have a better word for it, do please let me know.

Ex-utero gestation? ;)

The very fact that they've called it something seems to me to indicate that there's something fundamentally different between being born on Krieg, and being born on any other world in the Imperium - otherwise, why bother?

I personally don't think there's cloning going on on Krieg - again, if Warrick Kinrade had wanted them to be clones, he'd have called them clones, stated why they get away with defying the Imperial edicts against cloning (lets be honest, there's so many exceptions and loopholes in the 40k fluff, you could drive Abaddon's planet killer through them ;)), and got on with it.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 17:15
@Zahr Dalsk: I don't really understand what you're trying to say? Do you mean that gene manipulation isn't the same as cloning because you don't play with DNA?

@Sai-Lauren: So you think that Krieg soldier are born in a ex utero way. But, what happens about the vitae womb (vitae looks kind of "natural"). Do you still think they're born in tanks.

endless
01-05-2009, 17:17
1.
Death Korps, not "deathkorps.":rolleyes:

2. The relevant passage in IA5 suggests that the industrial production of soldiers was something developed during the Krieg civil war, not gifted to them at a later date.


Ex-utero gestation?

The very fact that they've called it something seems to me to indicate that there's something fundamentally different between being born on Krieg, and being born on any other world in the Imperium - otherwise, why bother?

I personally don't think there's cloning going on on Krieg - again, if Warrick Kinrade had wanted them to be clones, he'd have called them clones, stated why they get away with defying the Imperial edicts against cloning (lets be honest, there's so many exceptions and loopholes in the 40k fluff, you could drive Abaddon's planet killer through them ), and got on with it.

This.:p
@ Krieg Marshall: My take would be that it is very much a mechanical, factory style means of production. The line about 'enforced' use also suggests, to me at least, a sort of compulsory harvesting of eggs, cells or whatever. So, definitely 'unnatural' then.

Zahr Dalsk
01-05-2009, 17:26
@Zahr Dalsk: I don't really understand what you're trying to say? Do you mean that gene manipulation isn't the same as cloning because you don't play with DNA?

I mean that you can do gene manipulation in any human, even those being naturally born who would otherwise be completely normal and come from two mating humans.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 17:45
@endless: Uerk...No women needed, hum...Giant factory full of invitro gestation tanks, like in matrix. Sounds interesting. But, do you think this would fit with imperial decret on biologic "ethic" (Don't know if the term exists and eaven if it's correct)?

No more old fashioned way to make babies on Krieg...cruel...what a pity for them:(

@Zahr Dalsk: Thanks for your further explanations. But don't you think that Krieg soldiers are some normal humans? Humans not clones and nothing more, the only difference would be between them and us the way of production?

Col. Tartleton
01-05-2009, 21:27
I'm thinking swimming pool sized tanks with tens of thousands of fetuses growing in them. Entire regiments being bred annually in a square acre.

They take the desired number of ova from the cryo then saturate them with a single clone spermatozoa (Good stock with a Y) (Females are bred separately for reproductive purposes of ova and then are given euthanasia) leading all the generation to be half brothers (which would give a uniform look, similar genetics which are good for transplants and transfusions etc.) They are grown in nutrient solution until they are fetuses and then they are put into the main tanks and hooked up to the shared "superplacenta" through a synthetic umbilical cord. The thousands of tiny fetuses are allowed to develop freely in the tank until they reach their first year [21 months] (yes really) though their lungs are supplied with oxygen and food with a breathing/mammary tube at the nine month point. By the time they are removed from the tank they are ready for solid food to begin the process of brain stimulation.

They are issued to a eighteen year old soldier (yes issued) who is to be their father. (The father sees the task of raising the child as the last gift to Kriegs future before he deploys)The parenting is done with precision and the child in bonded to them. They are taught from this point language and by three years they are expected to be disciplined and follow the instructions of their father completely. At four their father is deployed and they are switched to a training instructor never to see their now to be dead father. From here on military training begins.

At eighteen they are issued a baby and the process continues. They feed, teach, and treat the child to their best. Then when the baby is four (they are now 21) they are packed up into their regiment and are sent off to war. This is where you see them. All their gear is provided by Administratum adepts and made by Mechanicus forges. They know only war.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 22:05
I'm thinking swimming pool sized tanks with tens of thousands of fetuses growing in them. Entire regiments being bred annually in a square acre.

They take the desired number of ova from the cryo then saturate them with a single clone spermatozoa (Good stock with a Y) (Females are bred separately for reproductive purposes of ova and then are given euthanasia) leading all the generation to be half brothers (which would give a uniform look, similar genetics which are good for transplants and transfusions etc.) They are grown in nutrient solution until they are fetuses and then they are put into the main tanks and hooked up to the shared "superplacenta" through a synthetic umbilical cord. The thousands of tiny fetuses are allowed to develop freely in the tank until they reach their first year [21 months] (yes really) though their lungs are supplied with oxygen and food with a breathing/mammary tube at the nine month point. By the time they are removed from the tank they are ready for solid food to begin the process of brain stimulation.

They are issued to a eighteen year old soldier (yes issued) who is to be their father. (The father sees the task of raising the child as the last gift to Kriegs future before he deploys)The parenting is done with precision and the child in bonded to them. They are taught from this point language and by three years they are expected to be disciplined and follow the instructions of their father completely. At four their father is deployed and they are switched to a training instructor never to see their now to be dead father. From here on military training begins.

At eighteen they are issued a baby and the process continues. They feed, teach, and treat the child to their best. Then when the baby is four (they are now 21) they are packed up into their regiment and are sent off to war. This is where you see them. All their gear is provided by Administratum adepts and made by Mechanicus forges. They know only war.

I've got only one thing to say: you're insane and it's the best piece of flulff I've read until now.

But, it arise a lot of questions,

1st, woman start producing ovas only by their 12th or 14th birthday (if I remember well), It would be a waste of time to produce girls fetuses only to euthanasia them.
2nd, staying in their bath for one entire year won't produce retard (in the medical sense)?
3rd, I really like idea of the new born child issued to a krieg cadet. But aren't 14 years old?

Anyway, your piece of flulff is very interesting. would you mind if I add somethings to it?

Kalishnikov-47
01-05-2009, 22:08
I remeber reading in the Imperial Armour Volume 5 that the Death Korps of Krieg are indeed clones. The Adeptus Mechanicus was given permission to use Cloning Vats because of the high mortality rates of theirs soldiers. Not even from just fighting but from recruiting as well.

The Krieg regiments all wear gas masks so outsiders do not see there identity as they are all clones. Now whether a whole regiment is the same I am not sute but I am sure that Tim who went to war was cloned 10 times for other regiments as well.

During the Horus Heresy Krieg went into a civil war itself and resulted in the atomic purging from the "Imperial" side after being orderd by a general to defeat the enemy forces on Krieg. Those that remained in underground civilzations safe from the holocaust became the Krieg living today and resuming normal birth rates and such.

After the Civil War and the Heresy Krief was taken into account for the events that transpired on their planet.The Krieg regiments that would atone for their past sins would give their lives needlessly and many commanders in charge of Krieg regiments realized the need for such dediceated adn hardenend troops due to advanced training regiments and harsh living conditions. In short Krieg was the perfect planet for the necessary soldiers of the Imperium. Never compromising and willling to give their lives was the name of the game.

Casualties for Krieg regiments were high and replacing such soldiers became harder and harder for the people on Krieg and such the Adeptus Mechanicus was deployed by the Imperium itself to ensure that fresh regiments of these hardened, elite, and willing troops were ready to make make amends for their previous sins.

As such many Krieg Regiments are clones because of the output of the Imperiums cloning techniques and the reason why many soldiers must wear gasmasks. They are trained to live with them on no matter what not just for saving their lives from harsh environments but to hide the cloning process used by the Mechanicus.

In short, Most Kriegsmen are in fact clones.

Krieg Marshall
01-05-2009, 22:23
@Kalishnikov-47: On which page did you find that, is It fluff or truth? I've never read something like this in the IA book...

Kalishnikov-47
01-05-2009, 22:31
@Kalishnikov-47: On which page did you find that, is It fluff or truth? I've never read something like this in the IA book...

Most is from the Lexicanum website I think. I mean the cloning part was definatley mentioned in said Imperial Armour 5 I thought. However, all of that data came from Lexicanum I am sure. I know I read it from somewhere mate. :D

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg There you go have a wee look.

madd0ct0r
01-05-2009, 23:44
The third time I've watched a thread like this.

Last time ended up with some pretty horrible fluff writing: women of kreig (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158789&highlight=krieg&page=2)

madd0ct0r
01-05-2009, 23:50
drat double post

Col. Tartleton
02-05-2009, 00:38
I've got only one thing to say: you're insane and it's the best piece of flulff I've read until now.

But, it arise a lot of questions,

1st, woman start producing ovas only by their 12th or 14th birthday (if I remember well), It would be a waste of time to produce girls fetuses only to euthanasia them.
2nd, staying in their bath for one entire year won't produce retard (in the medical sense)?
3rd, I really like idea of the new born child issued to a krieg cadet. But aren't 14 years old?

Anyway, your piece of flulff is very interesting. would you mind if I add somethings to it?

1. No, girls have all their ova at birth (weird eh) the ovaries don't release them till puberty (which is as early as 9.) Males on the other hand don't get sperm till they're pubescent.

2. Idk, it sounds grim dark. I would think they'd grow more. Humans give birth prematurely (like every baby is premature) our gestation is relatively short because we have such a narrow birth canal due to being upright. Thus our babies come out... stupid. Animal babies are usually much more intelligent proportionately than our own. Most of the learning we do comes at about one year in. This is where the bonding that will leave you retarded if not given comes in. By switching them from the placenta umbilical to a oxygen tube and a feeding tube synth breast milk (aka from swimming pool of fetuses to swimming pool of seemingly comatose infants) the babies will develop properly. The oxygen and liquid food rapidly change their bodies in the first few days. Babies don't do very much after that. Besides babies are supposed to swim, its good for their muscles, brains, and motor skills as well as bonding in the next phase. Besides its the best time to learn swimming. Kriegers with their rebreathers, goggles, and heavy duty rubberized gear would probably have no qualms fighting underwater...

3. Well as they get the baby for three years if you want them to deploy at 18 it would be fifteen. (I would imagine age of deployment wouldn't matter much because their life expectancy once they get deployed is only a couple years if that. Technically 25 would be ideal as that's when true maturity actually sets in (theoretically), and the body is still in good shape.) So that could make it them twenty two at age of issuing or twenty one if you want a year of refresher before being sent to kill things.

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 01:04
Most is from the Lexicanum website I think. I mean the cloning part was definatley mentioned in said Imperial Armour 5 I thought. However, all of that data came from Lexicanum I am sure. I know I read it from somewhere mate. :D

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg There you go have a wee look.

Thanks a lot for the link, I'm going to check asap, I'm really curious.:D

@madd0ct0r: That's why I've started this one. The debate on the vitae womb technique really triggered my curiosity.

@Col. Tartleton: Thanks a lot for your further explanations. It's really serious stuff you've got there. Do you study medecine or something like, you seem really, really knowing what your talking about?

Col. Tartleton
02-05-2009, 01:13
A habit of searching Wikipedia for useless knowledge and a good memory mostly. Half those things I looked up to back up my idea, but yeah I do like medicine. I'm only a sophomore in High school, so maybe if I get my grades up I could delve into that. :p though actually becoming a doctor doesn't seem like a smart idea besides the money bit.

Besides my idea is mostly based off of memory of facts which is only slightly ahead of GW ideas which are based off memories of peoples interpretations of facts. I don't think doing this would be advisable in real life. I just don't think it would leave your baby staring blankly at the refrigerator all day.

sycopat
02-05-2009, 03:04
Genetically engineered X chromosomes causes puberty to go haywire in the female, turning them into "Mother rats" birthing massive muling litters every couple of months.
A major service award amongst the Krieg is actually getting to inseminate one of the beasts yourself...

In this way the Krieg become the true skaven analogue of 40k....

(I like Col. Tartletons vision best I must admit, although my guess is the writer just didn't want to get into/know the details. On the cloning front, presumably the AdMech have a way around telomere shortening or they wouldn't be able to use it nigh indefinitely on themselves.

One other option: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokanovsky_process )

the_raptor
02-05-2009, 06:07
Most of the learning we do comes at about one year in. This is where the bonding that will leave you retarded if not given comes in. By switching them from the placenta umbilical to a oxygen tube and a feeding tube synth breast milk (aka from swimming pool of fetuses to swimming pool of seemingly comatose infants) the babies will develop properly.

No they wont. They will be blind, deaf, and mentally retarded. Pruning of neurons begins immediately after birth and so does bonding, neurons deprived of stimulation die, that is how your brain wires itself correctly (and why neural anatomy is subtlety different between people). We have done experiments where kittens had their eyes sewed shut for a few weeks after birth, this caused them to become permanently blind.

To keep those children viable you would need to hook them into some kind of stimulation, so why wouldn't you just 'issue' them immediately?

Col. Tartleton
02-05-2009, 06:43
Cause its more grim dark... but okay unplug them at "birth" and then issue them.

Way to say "No" to my vision of thousands of floating infants playing with each other in a enormous shared synthetic uterus with supplies of oxygen and composite breast milk being pumped into their gullets with snaking black tubes and skeletal servitors sliding between them making sure all the cords are functioning properly. A gaunt pencil thin mustached smirking Krieger in the uniform of the Birthing Corps checking off a clipboard as he walks alongside the tanks in an underground factory of sorts lit by red lights. Behind him an off world commissar follows reluctantly with a sick look on his face. The Krieger smiles and points into the tank as a servitor pulls itself out of the saline fluid soaking wet and its robes stinking of seawater. "Dies is wo I wurden geboren."[This is where I was born.] Then commisar puts on his brave face "Could use some window boxes, ja?" "Ha Ha, sehr schlau mein Kommissar." [Haha, very clever my commissar.]

[Jeez I find the weirdest hours of night to comment on things. Damn school vacations I'm probably going to waste the morning sleeping.]

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 06:48
Thanks to Kalishnikov-47 we finally found an answer to what the vitae womb bithing techique could be.

"Recruitment for members of the Death Korps of Krieg is similar to many other Imperial worlds throughout the Imperium and conscription depends on varying circumstances. Most who join generally do so out of a sense of duty and as a way to atone for the previous rebellion against the Emperor. Officers ranks are difficult to obtain, as with certain regiments of the Death Korps you must work your way up the ranks from the bottom.

Training is considered brutal, as only the best is demanded to maintain the famous standards of discipline and selflessness that the Death Korps of Krieg are famous for they only want the best. Gasmasks are conventionally viewed as a second skin, as soldiers are trained to permanently operate with them if required. Fear of failure, and ceaseless drilling of duty and honour are instilled in new recruits, to make certain that they would stand their ground in combat under any situation. Mental conditioning is the key part of their training so soldiers are prepared for the horrors on the battlefield and beyond; many fail at this stage. This equips soldiers with the discipline to face the depredations of Chaos, the alien terror of the Tyranids and any other terrible monstrosities.

It should be noted that Krieg raises an unusually large number of regiments for a devastated planet. This is attributed to the use of cloning technology, which Krieg has been granted special dispensation to use as the result of their famous steel, determination and unswerving loyalty to the Emperor. Use of this technology is generally prohibited throughout the Imperium by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the custodians of the Imperium's technological lore. This may explain why Death Korp troops are rarely seen without their characteristic gas masks."

It comes from the lexicanum and can be found on this page: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg#Recruitment_.26_Training

Do you agree with this, or do you think is wrong? Could it still be something different?

@sycopat: The skavens of the 40K universe, well...Uerk, and "A major service award amongst the Krieg is actually getting to inseminate one of the beasts yourself..." uerk eaven worst.
otherwise, thanks a lot for the link, it looks really intersteting and fit particularly well in my opinion what could (or should be) the vitae womb technique used on Krieg.

Hellebore
02-05-2009, 07:43
A little while ago I was musing on alternate 40k timelines where Primatriarchs existed instead of Primarchs. Great brood warriors that gestated XO male War Masters that fertilised her and allowed her to produce an endless stream of female astartes. It took the mating of the Emperor to grow another Primatriarch (he was effectively the royal jelly...).

Makes more sense and grows astartes naturally.

Krieg's vitae womb technique may be like the Admech's 'non AI' machines, a superficial difference to allow it to work. Instead of silicon AI the AM uses biological neural components, thus creating an intelligent machine without breaking the anti AI laws (which is also why Servitors exist at all).

Thus Krieg may clone in all but name, allowing them to do it. So for example they pump the women full of hormones to make them ovulating continuously and mate them. They are then gestating multiple foetuses. These are removed and grown in a tank (ala Tartleton's method).

Thus they are 'naturally conceived' babies that are not grown naturally. This way females can be continuously fertilised and harvested for embryos without straining them too much.

The Imperium goes through overly convoluted methods to stay within dogma, cloning would be no different.

Vat grown servitors are used to create space marine chapters BTW. They take the geneseed and grow it in the vat growns, harvest them and then grow again until after 55 years they have 1000 sets of marine organs.

EDIT: Another possibility is the growing of uteri for gestation. We know the Imperium doesn't care about cloning body parts as many of the higher ups in the Imperium are on the receiving end of these (Col Schaeffer and Eisenhorn off the top of my head). So they could clone a uterus and grow it in a tank and implant fertilised eggs into them (via sperm and egg collections of the loyal citizens of Krieg). This Genotithe would be seen as a holy duty (so no dirty jokes or porn at the sperm bank, rather prayer and meditation on such a noble task) and all the people of Krieg would gladly go to the genetarium to donate their gametes for the cause. Thus, we end up with artifically grown humans that are not clones (although they could and probably would pull the blastomere apart to create multiple copies of the same individual to speed up the process) but are produced in laboratories.

Hmmm, not sure which one I like better.

Hellebore

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 08:02
I prefer the second one. It fits more with the krigian way of things. Those guys are devoted to the emperor and seeing the reproduction act as noble duty is the way are things or should be in their minds. They're numb, devoted and have an extreme conception of duty.

Hellebore
02-05-2009, 08:23
Just to grimdark it up a bit more they could harvest the uteri of the female population. Thus these women are 'liberated' to fight for the emperor and will be drafted into the army like the males. Without a uterus their value as incubators is nil. Now they don't even need to clone the uteri, because they are just removing them all from each female at puberty.

The result is a 100% militarised population with no declination of population (except through war casualties).

Hellebore

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 08:42
Personnally I don't think they'll send women on the battlefield, eaven if their uteri were removed. For a few seally reasons.

Women are weaker than men on the battlefield. Krieg must be the more misogene society of all the imperium.
Having women sharing the same trenches with men could only be a headhack for a commissar, imagine the number of execution for "fraternisation" (eaven if krieg soldiers are numb as stones, you simply cannot avoid biological needs).
What happens when every single human being on Krieg is sent out to kill things, who rules the place?

Those some of the few reasons making doudtfull about women in Kierg armies.

Hellebore
02-05-2009, 08:47
Doesn't matter. Krieg must atone, not just men. Women must atone as well. If you have a grown population of 10 billion and half are female, you can either send 5 billion to war, or 10 billion to war. It's not like the females are TAKING places form male soldiers, they'd be augmenting their lines even more.

And just because you send both males and females to war doesn't mean there would be no one left, anymore than saying that we send males to war now means there are no men in the country.

There would by necessity be a custodian government and administration (including the Administratum which would be exempt from military service). No more than 1 million people would be needed to run the infrastructure of Krieg.

You can then send the 9,999,000,000 people to war.

Hellebore

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 09:12
@Hellbore: Maybe...

I was thinking,

How things could work on Krieg? So we all know that the majority of the pepole serves in the military. This guys are no longer engineered in the old fashion of making babies, because they're always involved in a conflict.

Krieg troopers are created by the vitae womb irthing technique which doesn't seem to be the same thing as cloning.
The women of Krieg aren't enough to produce entire regiments every month. So, the Adeptus Biologis preleve the ovas from the krieg women and fertilize them with Krieg men spermatozoas.
The feconded ovas are put in olympic swiming pool sized tanks where they grow at this point we may consider that each future soldier is half brother, having the same mother but not the same father.
At 9 month the new born Krieg men are placed under the authority of the Schola progenium (maybe mispelled this one) where they get their education.
At the age of 14 the they becomes krieg cadets and placed under the authority of military central command of krieg. Than after they're sent to war, but before being sent to war they must leave a sample of spermatozoas, for the next generation of soldier.
If they came, for the ones you does, they get the special autorisation by the Adeptus Biologis, or any other Krieg authority, to marry someone and have the holy duty to produce at least two children, a boy and a girl, which would be the base for a new generation and in this was preserve biodiversity. The high ranking officers get that right as a reward and doesn't need an autorisation.

I was just thinking out loud, any comment would be appreciated

endless
02-05-2009, 09:36
It should be noted that Krieg raises an unusually large number of regiments for a devastated planet. This is attributed to the use of cloning technology, which Krieg has been granted special dispensation to use as the result of their famous steel, determination and unswerving loyalty to the Emperor. Use of this technology is generally prohibited throughout the Imperium by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the custodians of the Imperium's technological lore. This may explain why Death Korp troops are rarely seen without their characteristic gas masks."
This is, again, simply supposition. From IA 5:
Krieg's sole purpose was to turn out Death Korps soldiers as another world might mine ore or sow wheat... This has resulted in suspect practices being tolerated -some, such as the eugenic policies designed to weed out mutants caused by Krieg's damaged biosphere, universal conscription, etc, are continuations of Krieg's centuries of civil war. But others, such as the enforced use of "Vitae-Womb" birthing techniques are little known outside of the Adeptus Biologis and are seen as dangerous and abhorrent...[Death Korps guardsmen] have a tendency to be highly insular, unemotional and often taciturn to the point of silence... [and] will also display a high degree of fatalism and an unusual morbidity of habit... this psychology serves to foster isolationism (such as the fact that they rarely remove their re-breather masks even when not in battle)...
There is no mention of clones at all. Agreed, it may be in all but name but it might be something utterly different. I would add that the reference to eugenics suggests a certain variety in the genetic material available. I do like Hellebore's idea of harvested uteri freeing up the female population in order to increase the yield of soldiers, it fits the nature of Krieg nicely (if nice is the right word to use in relation to Krieg:confused:).
One last point, the prospective guardsmen are 'tested, selected and relentlessly trained almost from birth' which adds to the idea of variety, and suggests a younger induction age than fourteen. They are psychologically broken down and re-programmed. The 'Cult of Sacrifice' precludes the necessity of a system of reward, family structures are thus very unlikely. Rather, born without parents, the Korps and willing sacrifice are the only family and reward they can know.

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 09:50
One last point, the prospective guardsmen are 'tested, selected and relentlessly trained almost from birth' which adds to the idea of variety, and suggests a younger induction age than fourteen. They are psychologically broken down and re-programmed. The 'Cult of Sacrifice' precludes the necessity of a system of reward, family structures are thus very unlikely. Rather, born without parents, the Korps and willing sacrifice are the only family and reward they can know.

I've forgot about the eugenic thing, thanks a lot.

Don't you think that getting the privilege to be the starting point of a new generation couldn't be considered as a reward? This is something I had to digg more in my preavious post.

The Krieg soldier's son is obviously put under the authority of the Schola progenium. But the daughter stays home with her mother. At the age of 9 She has her first monthly ovas donation, wich looks like a ritual on Krieg.

But there is something I don't fully understand. Do you mean that the only reward a Krieg soldier could get is to sacrifice hiself? I've certainly misunderstood the real meanning I apologize.

P.S.: And yes nice is certainlly the last word that would come to mind when someone thinks about Krieg:D.

endless
02-05-2009, 10:04
That is what I meant, yes. There's no need to apologise though, it was an awkwardly phrased sentence. I see it as being an essential part of the Krieg doctrine. Society and its norms don't really exist on Krieg, it's more just a production line for soldiers. The planet is wholly given over to this, and as such can be run by a small group of Administratum 'managers'. Remember, the Korps are obsessed by death. Life, and its creation, would hold little interest for them.

Solar_Eclipse
02-05-2009, 10:35
The production line idea is very similar to the opening chapter to Aldous Huxleys 'Brave New World'.

It was a social commentary and Dystopia, but the part im referring too is where the whole first chapter shows the cloning facility in action where a huge amount of clones are being moved about on a production line.

The Science handwavium in that was that by using the right processes and chemicals, a scientist could get an egg to produce a huge number of twins. The record being around 130 from a single egg.

So now we have Krieg, what happens is that a woman of 14 ritually donates her Ovum to Krieg and joins the military. The Ovum is cultivated and used to create an average of around 80 Children, who grow up at a normal rate and are indoctrinated the whole way.

at a low age, indoctrination makes way too training around the age of 5 or 6, with the basic training needed for a Death Korps warrior being used. This continues, as well as the indoctrination and slow exposure to certain poisons etc until the age of 14, where the twins (probably reduced to around half the starting number) ritually remove the sperm and ovum and are then sent off to war, walking through the streets until they reach their local town square where a mass funeral is held. (this last part is real fluff). and then they are shipped off.

At a ratio of 1 ovum to an average of 80 soldiers is a way that the horriffic attrition rate of Krieg soldiers is kept within acceptable levels.

This means that around 95% of Kriegs population is conscripted, while the remaining 5 are concerned with production of new soldiers, training and weeding out the weak soldiers.

Kalishnikov-47
02-05-2009, 14:50
Thanks to Kalishnikov-47 we finally found an answer to what the vitae womb bithing techique could be.

"Recruitment for members of the Death Korps of Krieg is similar to many other Imperial worlds throughout the Imperium and conscription depends on varying circumstances. Most who join generally do so out of a sense of duty and as a way to atone for the previous rebellion against the Emperor. Officers ranks are difficult to obtain, as with certain regiments of the Death Korps you must work your way up the ranks from the bottom.

Training is considered brutal, as only the best is demanded to maintain the famous standards of discipline and selflessness that the Death Korps of Krieg are famous for they only want the best. Gasmasks are conventionally viewed as a second skin, as soldiers are trained to permanently operate with them if required. Fear of failure, and ceaseless drilling of duty and honour are instilled in new recruits, to make certain that they would stand their ground in combat under any situation. Mental conditioning is the key part of their training so soldiers are prepared for the horrors on the battlefield and beyond; many fail at this stage. This equips soldiers with the discipline to face the depredations of Chaos, the alien terror of the Tyranids and any other terrible monstrosities.

It should be noted that Krieg raises an unusually large number of regiments for a devastated planet. This is attributed to the use of cloning technology, which Krieg has been granted special dispensation to use as the result of their famous steel, determination and unswerving loyalty to the Emperor. Use of this technology is generally prohibited throughout the Imperium by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the custodians of the Imperium's technological lore. This may explain why Death Korp troops are rarely seen without their characteristic gas masks."

It comes from the lexicanum and can be found on this page: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg#Recruitment_.26_Training

Do you agree with this, or do you think is wrong? Could it still be something different?

@sycopat: The skavens of the 40K universe, well...Uerk, and "A major service award amongst the Krieg is actually getting to inseminate one of the beasts yourself..." uerk eaven worst.
otherwise, thanks a lot for the link, it looks really intersteting and fit particularly well in my opinion what could (or should be) the vitae womb technique used on Krieg.

Glad I could be of service for Krieg as I myself am working on an army.

RCgothic
02-05-2009, 15:03
The women of Krieg aren't enough to produce entire regiments every month.

A planet similar to modern day earth could sustain a conscription rate of 18% without dwindling population, with the rest of the population living normally. That's 24 million soldiers a year, or roughly 10,000 regiments. 830 Regiments a month.

As krieg uses techniques and society to get closer to 100%, it could have a population as low as 1.6 million globally (5 times smaller than London) and still produce a regiment a month.

Krieg Marshall
02-05-2009, 19:05
A planet similar to modern day earth could sustain a conscription rate of 18% without dwindling population, with the rest of the population living normally. That's 24 million soldiers a year, or roughly 10,000 regiments. 830 Regiments a month.

As krieg uses techniques and society to get closer to 100%, it could have a population as low as 1.6 million globally (5 times smaller than London) and still produce a regiment a month.

I really suck in the mathematics...But hell that's agreat number of regiments:eek: Do you count also women in that?

RCgothic
02-05-2009, 19:35
My figures do include women being conscripted, though a planet similar to modern day earth could sustain an all-male conscription leaving a gender balance 60:40 female:male.

Obviously a planet with nearer 100% conscription would produce fewer soldiers if only men were conscripted.

Anyway, the point of my post was to demonstrate that even natural breeding can produce millions of soldiers a year.

If Krieg use cloning they could easily produce many more, and be genetically selective about producing only male soldiers if that was a concern.

Krieg Marshall
03-05-2009, 19:20
The production line idea is very similar to the opening chapter to Aldous Huxleys 'Brave New World'.

It was a social commentary and Dystopia, but the part im referring too is where the whole first chapter shows the cloning facility in action where a huge amount of clones are being moved about on a production line.

The Science handwavium in that was that by using the right processes and chemicals, a scientist could get an egg to produce a huge number of twins. The record being around 130 from a single egg.

So now we have Krieg, what happens is that a woman of 14 ritually donates her Ovum to Krieg and joins the military. The Ovum is cultivated and used to create an average of around 80 Children, who grow up at a normal rate and are indoctrinated the whole way.

at a low age, indoctrination makes way too training around the age of 5 or 6, with the basic training needed for a Death Korps warrior being used. This continues, as well as the indoctrination and slow exposure to certain poisons etc until the age of 14, where the twins (probably reduced to around half the starting number) ritually remove the sperm and ovum and are then sent off to war, walking through the streets until they reach their local town square where a mass funeral is held. (this last part is real fluff). and then they are shipped off.

At a ratio of 1 ovum to an average of 80 soldiers is a way that the horriffic attrition rate of Krieg soldiers is kept within acceptable levels.

This means that around 95% of Kriegs population is conscripted, while the remaining 5 are concerned with production of new soldiers, training and weeding out the weak soldiers.

I really like this one, and the idea of the mass funeral before being shipped is quiet nice and really fits the Krieg ideology.

I've imagined a new moto form them:"Krieg soldier don't fear death, because they're already dead". It sounds pretty cool to me.

Sai-Lauren
07-05-2009, 11:23
To generate a twin, all you really need to do is take the newly fertilised blastomere, wait for it to divide once, then split it in half.

The tricky bit is doing it without damaging both cells. ;)

The problem with that is that you're effectively halving the genetic diversity on the planet - after all, there's still a finite maximum population that can be supported, especially if everyone's having to live in radiation shielded buildings or subterreanean bunker complexes.



So now we have Krieg, what happens is that a woman of 14 ritually donates her Ovum to Krieg and joins the military. The Ovum is cultivated and used to create an average of around 80 Children, who grow up at a normal rate and are indoctrinated the whole way.

Why just the ovaries (ovum are the eggs)?

Let's look at it this way - if someone from Krieg goes off world, then their genes are lost to future generations.
But, if someone stays on Krieg, the radiation in the environment will eventually affect their ovaries or testes, which will lead to a higher incidence of mutation etc in subsequent generations.

So, IMO, once the person in question reaches a certain age (I'd say 16 so that they're close to the end of puberty, if not actually there) they harvest at least one ovary from each female child, and one testicle from each male child, both of which can then either be chemically treated there and then to release ova/spermatazoa for production of the next generation, or stored against future need.

If both of each persons gonads get harvested, then they're effectively genderless drones (which might explain why they're so willing to die ;)).

Awilla the Hun
07-05-2009, 21:51
"If both of each persons gonads get harvested, then they're effectively genderless drones (which might explain why they're so willing to die )."

So, that's why they have all that artillery. They really are compensating for something!

spacewolf_sven
12-05-2009, 05:40
every women must give birth to at least one boy child and the second child should be a girl in order to conserve the men women ratio.


well, no, if the majority of men die in "the emperor's service" I don't think this is necessary mabye 10:1 ratio. The krieg do have high attrition rates