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View Full Version : Where are the elves in Middle-Earth?



Sedge
30-04-2009, 12:55
Ok, as far as i know we have Rivendel, Lothlorien, Mirkwood and The grey havens.
Which elves from the WotRs suit each group? I was thinking that High elves are classic 2nd age elves, Galadhrim were Lothelorien and wood elves Mirkwood. Rivendel and Grey havens? Is it so clear cut. I know that somebody out there with a lot more LotR knowledge will be able to work it out.
Also what of the Heros? Where does Glorfindel come from?

mike_a
30-04-2009, 14:32
Glorfindel Comes from the West, he was sent in a similar manner as the wizzards but earlier then them I belive. He was a high elf that died fighting a Balrog then came back to live in the west, and was eventualy sent to middle earth again.

Your right about the wood elves and galahadrim.
Rivendel is mainly high elves as far as I know.
No idea about the grey heavens.

Incidentaly I've found the eaisest way to find the answers to these sort of questions is the interwebs.

http://lotr.wikia.com/

Thanks;
Mike

helvexis
30-04-2009, 16:11
high elves are rivendel and grey havens for most part and galadhrim are woodish elves led by a high elf queen who have gon highish.

basically there are 2 types of elves with subsects of each:
1. elves who went to valinor where the gods live and place of eternal joy... well sort of read silmarillion if you really want to know but it was there they became high..
2. wood/dark elves these are the guys who didnt make it or even leave middle earth a all so never saw the light of the 2 trees, again silmarillion for whoe story just read the bits before the actualy silmarils are created by faenor to understand the main differences.
3. oh and there were sea elves these were the ones in the havens.. well some of them probably but they never really saw the light of the 2 trees except form a distance they left to go to valinor just didnt quite get there got most f the way so there also highish

there are a few subsects of each group but you get the general point.

glorfindel is one of the few high elf lords left arent very many who arent iether in mandos' halls (where elves go when they die) or in valinor and they having sen the light of the trees(really does sound silly but these were uber trees!!!) sort of gives him light powers over darkness... i mean he probably wouldnt want to be taking on all of the 9 on his own but certainly a couple possibly all except the witch king thats a big maybe though doubt he would do that if he had any other choice.

Condottiere
30-04-2009, 19:45
By the end of the Third Age, High Elves would predominate in Eriador and Lindon, but probably are mixed with Grey and Wood Elves.

Phoenix Blaze
30-04-2009, 20:55
There are *no* High Elves in Middle earth, at best, there were some with mixed blood, but nope, no High Elves. Only the Noldor, the Deep Elves came from Valinor whereas all of the Vanyar remained in Aman. Of course, this raises the question of what was Glorfindel, Vanyar or Noldor. Well, he was ruled by Turgon, so Noldor.

Anyway, the main groups are:

Moriquendi, those Elves who never undertook the great journey to Aman or foresook the journey at some point. They are known as the Dark Elves as they never beheld the light of the Trees. They include the Nandor, Avari and the Sindar.

Calaquendi, those Elves who eventually travelled to Aman and lived there with the Valar. They beheld and lived in the light of the Two Trees, and therefore grew to be tall and strong. The light of the trees didn't grant any sort of power, it was just nourishing, thoroughly so. They include the Noldor, Vanyar, Teleri and Thingol, alone of all the Sindar to see the Trees.

The Elves at the Grey Havens are a mix of the Noldor and the Sindar, aswell as the Nandor and other small kindreds.

Of the Heroes, well Elrond is of the Noldor primarily, Glorfindel is a mix of Vanyar and Noldor (I suppose, from the Golden hair he has to be!), Gil-Galad (or Ereinion) was High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth during the 2nd Age. (therefore deserving of a better model and ridiculously badass rules, he'd own Aragorn any day).


Hope that helps.

Suicide Messiah
01-05-2009, 15:43
i mean he probably wouldnt want to be taking on all of the 9 on his own but certainly a couple possibly all except the witch king thats a big maybe though doubt he would do that if he had any other choice.

Isnt there a bit in LotR that says hes one of the few who can ride openly against the 9? I recall somthing about him appearing to them as a being of pure light.

I was always under the impression he could take all the 9. Certainly the witch king one on one, barring any theories on prophecies involving Eowyn.

Are dark elves an actual group of elves? Theres only one mentioned in the silmarillion.

Cant say ive read the books in a while.

Phoenix Blaze
01-05-2009, 16:17
The dark Elves are the Sindar and other elves that never went to Valinor for whatever reasons. The term "Dark" doesn't mean they are evil or anything. It's just a very literal description involving the light of the Two Trees. They were quite literally in the dark until the Sun and Moon were made (barring the stars of Varda).

The Elves of Mirkwood and a number of the Galadhrim would be Dark Elves, or descended from them. Some would be in Rivendell too and the Grey Havens. By the end of the 2nd age, most of the elven communes were populated by a mix of the different Kindreds. The Noldor had fled to many different regions and lived among other Elves after their kingdoms were destroyed one by one.

C-Coen
01-05-2009, 21:55
Isnt there a bit in LotR that says hes one of the few who can ride openly against the 9? I recall somthing about him appearing to them as a being of pure light.

I was always under the impression he could take all the 9. Certainly the witch king one on one, barring any theories on prophecies involving Eowyn.

Just to say so, Glorfy actually was the one who said that ("Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.")
And yeah, he could fight the Nine. Actually, they (including the Witch-king) fled before him. But then, he fought a balrog, and killed it (tough dying while doing so).

Leonathion
04-05-2009, 15:50
Not any balrog buth Gothmog the commander of the balrog army! This elf is badass indeed but there has never been a clear line stating that Glorfindel Lotr is the same as Glorfindel Silmarillion.

Elves mainly populated eregion in the second age until sauron started making his war and the last alliance was created. After that the elves started departing to the west and congregiting in small areas of their own. The grey havens and rivendell being the primary for the norldorin and mirkwood/lothlorien for the avari (lothlorien mixed with some nolodrin). The "wood elves" probably stayed longer and were more inclined not to leave middle earth, since they had never been in Aman.

Condottiere
04-05-2009, 17:29
It's only been hinted at; the Valar supposedly sent him back, but if so, his role seems rather limited in LotR.

Glorfindel's power might actually have been enhanced by his resurrection, which is why the Ringwraiths would be loath to face him down.

Phoenix Blaze
04-05-2009, 19:09
Ecthelion killed Gothmog, not Glorfindel. Glorfindel killed a regular chump Blarog. Is there not a letter from Tolkien giving the final word on Glorfindel?

Eumerin
06-05-2009, 11:19
Is there not a letter from Tolkien giving the final word on Glorfindel?

I believe that's where it's mentioned.

And Glorfindel's takedown of the balrog also foreshadowed what Gandalf did later in Moria (knocked it off a chasm and went down with it, as I recall).

:P


well Elrond is of the Noldor primarily

Technically, Elrond is half-elven - the grandson of the two unions of a human and an elf in the First Age, iirc. The elven blood on his father's side comes from the Noldor (through Idril, Tuor's wife), while the elven blood on his mother's side comes from the Sindar (through Luthien, Beren's wife).

Like his brother, he was given the choice to take after either his elvish heritage or his human heritage. Unlike his brother, he chose the elvish side.

As far as ancestors are concerned, he's a mix of human, Noldor, Sindar, and even Maia (Luthien's mother).

Phoenix Blaze
06-05-2009, 12:35
But by the will of Eru's he's all elven. The half elven doesn't really mean anything beyond that in terms of ability, skill, knowledge etc.

I wonder if Arwen and Aragorn's son will have a choice.......


Was Glorfindel buried on the mountain when he fought the Balrog, or was a mound just raised for him? I'd have to go check to make sure and well, that's just not going to happen right now. If he was actually buried, I imagine he either didn't fall with the Balrog, or that the Eagles raised him up (as they tended to do a bit back then).

Eumerin
07-05-2009, 01:47
But by the will of Eru's he's all elven. The half elven doesn't really mean anything beyond that in terms of ability, skill, knowledge etc.

I wonder if Arwen and Aragorn's son will have a choice.......

I'm pretty sure that he won't. The time of the Elves ends with the end of the Third Age, meaning that they will no longer be found in Middle Earth. And while Elrond and his brother Elros weren't the only two people given the choice of taking after elves or men, it's worth noting that generally that choice was reserved for individuals of either genuine mixed heritage (such as Elrond and Elros) or elves who decided to love a mortal man (Arwen and Luthien). The closest you get to the opposite is the case of Tuor, who was allowed to travel to and live in Valinor with his elven wife.

Also, the son is the ruler of a kingdom of men. It wouldn't really be appropriate for him to be an elf.

Elrond's heritage was brought up largely to point out that classifying him as a Noldor isn't exactly correct. Even considering that he takes after the elves as opposed to men, he has the blood of two different groups of elves flowing through his veins - the Noldor through Idril, and the Sindar through Luthien.


Was Glorfindel buried on the mountain when he fought the Balrog, or was a mound just raised for him? I'd have to go check to make sure and well, that's just not going to happen right now. If he was actually buried, I imagine he either didn't fall with the Balrog, or that the Eagles raised him up (as they tended to do a bit back then).

I don't know for certain what happened to his body after his death, but given that he was with Tuor's party fleeing from the destruction of Gondolin at the time I doubt that his body was recovered.

brightblade
07-05-2009, 09:39
Glorfindel is indeed one of the true badass elves but he did not slay Gothmog. Gothmog was slain (in single combat) by Ecthelion (of the Fountain) near the end of the siege of Gondolin.(edit; just got Phoenix Blaze's correction of this)

Glorfindel was lost when he fell to his death while fighting an unnamed Balrog as he led survivors (including Tuor and Idril) to safety. As to whether the Glorfindel that saves the Hobbits is the first age elf resurrected I have never come across anything that states this (though they are both House of Finarfin). Though heavens, I would like it to be true.:) Was his body recovered by Eagles, like Fingolfin, and revered then laid to rest? I will look it up later. edit#2 been looking in the letters for news of Glorfindel, no luck so far! (though in the index of Unfinished Tales he is listed as Glorfindel, Elf of Rivendell, an important distinction?)

As for the location of Elves ,OP has the main places listed but not all Elves are travelling to the Undying Lands some will remain in Middle Earth (mainly our Silvan friends in Lorien and Mirkwood) and fade away from the world of men. The House of Elrond is closed and unused in the Fourth Age as are the Havens. While Legolas builds the last ship to sail into the west.

In terms of power levels, Galadriel is recognisd as the highest elf (though maybe not in a fist fight:p) in Middle Earth, having lived in the light of the two trees makes her almost a match for Sauron at his height but I am wandering way off topic.

Phoenix Blaze
07-05-2009, 10:59
I thought Tuor just disappeared for all intents and purposes. I don't recall him going to Valinor, but, I'm very rusty on the background, so chances are that I'm wrong.

I'd say Elrond was of the Noldor, in the same way that Fingolfin and Finarfin were of the Noldor, even with their mother being Vanyar. I think it might come down to the father's heritage, or the core loyalty of the person (elf).

brightblade
08-05-2009, 19:22
Tuor sailed west with his wife (Idril) in the ship they built together, settling on Eldamar(I think it's in the Unfinished Tales). So to all intents and purposes he did indeed disappear.

As for Elrond, he is part elf, part man, part maia. To call him an half elf seems a bit derisory. lol.:D Mind you if it came down his father he would still be 'peredhil', I agree though, he would see himself as Noldorin. With all the joys and tragedies that brings.