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View Full Version : Bets on whether Lionel Johnson is a Traitor



Talos402000
04-05-2009, 04:12
The Fallen Angels (new Horus Heresy book) book looks interesting just from the blurb on the cover page:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

As news of Horus’s treachery spreads, the Great Crusade grinds to a halt as the primarchs and their Legions decide where their loyalty lies – with the Emperor, or the rebel Warmaster Horus. In this sequel to Descent of Angels, the Dark Angels too face a time of testing, both in the stars, and on their home world, Caliban.

Arriving in the Gehinnom system, Lionel Jonson and a force of Dark Angels set about subjugating the system’s core worlds which are key to the Warmaster’s plans to overthrow the Emperor.

You know, that sounds like Lionel is subjugating those worlds for Horus... which I think answers the question of the Dark Angels loyalties.

I bet that Lionel initially turns Traitor then turns back at the end of the book. Any takers?

abasio
04-05-2009, 04:50
The sentence Arriving in the Gehinnom system, Lion El'Jonson and a force of Dark Angels set about subjugating the system’s core worlds which are key to the Warmaster’s plans to overthrow the Emperor. sounds more to me like the Lion is making sure these worlds are secure for the loyalists and hurt Horus's plans.

WastedWhiteBoy
04-05-2009, 05:00
I myself always thought it'd be pretty cool if Lionel was simply waiting to see who he thought would win for sure before joining in. The idea that the Fallen are simply falsely persecuted always struck me as cool.

But there are a lot who disagree. Namely lots of Dark Angels players.

Ivellis
04-05-2009, 05:02
I myself always thought it'd be pretty cool if Lionel was simply waiting to see who he thought would win for sure before joining in. The idea that the Fallen are simply falsely persecuted always struck me as cool.

But there are a lot who disagree. Namely lots of Dark Angels players.

I'm a DA player and I agree. ;)

Nicha11
04-05-2009, 05:07
It would be pretty bad ass if the Lion was a traitor. But I doubt he was.

Ulsterburg
04-05-2009, 05:18
Even if he was it doesn't make all of the DA such, as the OP contends.


which I think answers the question of the Dark Angels loyalties.

massey
04-05-2009, 05:44
I never really got the fascination that the "loyal" Dark Angels were traitors. The old fluff was very clear on what happened. The newer books try to cast doubt on the old stuff, but to me, it's still fairly clear.

The Dark Angels aren't nicey-nice marines. They aren't poster boys like the Ultramarines, they aren't angelic like the Blood Angels, and they aren't noble savages like the Space Wolves. They're the closest thing to CIA marines. They've got secrets upon secrets upon secrets. Lion El'Jonson keeps his own counsel and is mysterious. But I don't think there's anything to show they're traitors.

There are a few bits of evidence that point towards them not being traitor. First is Luther. We know that Luther had already considered letting an enemy blow up the DA capital ship with the primarch aboard. The jealousy is strong in him. We also know that Luther, though originally much smaller and weaker, ends up going toe to toe with the Lion in a fight when Caliban is blown up. We also know that he continuously claims that El'Jonson will return and forgive him some day. So this seems to point to Luther turning on the Lion and getting empowered somehow (Chaos) to be able to fight him. Second, we have the Space Wolves. The Dark Angels with the Lion traveled with the Wolves on their way to Earth. By all accounts, the Space Wolves wanted to stop and fight at every planet while the Dark Angels wanted to hurry to Earth. When they were delayed and arrived too late, the two primarchs got into a fight about it. By some accounts, El'Jonson had Russ as good as dead, but stayed his hand. I don't think a traitor primarch would have done so. Finally, the only person who says things happened differently was a Chapter Master stuck on Caliban, who was self-admittedly upset at being left behind and was suspicious of the Lion's motives. He himself said that transmissions coming through the warp were garbled and no one was sure what was going on.

All this points, to me, to Lion El'Jonson being a secretive, moody jerk. He doesn't tell anyone what is going on, keeps secrets from everyone, gets into 3 different fights with Leman Russ, is self-righteous as hell and stubborn as a mule. But in the end, he's still on the side of the Imperium. He's just not as likable as, say, fun-loving guys like Rogal Dork. Dorn, sorry. Dorn. :)

chrismp_123
04-05-2009, 06:11
All this points, to me, to Lion El'Jonson being a secretive, moody jerk. He doesn't tell anyone what is going on, keeps secrets from everyone, gets into 3 different fights with Leman Russ, is self-righteous as hell and stubborn as a mule. But in the end, he's still on the side of the Imperium. He's just not as likable as, say, fun-loving guys like Rogal Dork. Dorn, sorry. Dorn. :)


I agree :D

Logarithm Udgaur
04-05-2009, 06:24
Given the startling revelations that the Horus heresy series has given us thus far, I would not be surprised if this tripe also came to pass.

Lexington
04-05-2009, 06:26
At this point, I find it more surprising when the BL decides not to pull some sort of "everything you knew was false!" stunt with a Horus Heresy book. The whole series is sort of a one-trick pony, and the trick wasn't that interesting in the first place.

rottahn
04-05-2009, 06:42
all this restructuring of the old fluff is starting to anger me. as a loyal customer to GW for going on 15 years, i can deal with my miniatures becoming obsolete and unusable. what i CANNOT take is buying(in essence) a book with a story, which is then proven to be utterly false by ANOTHER book with a story about the same subject.

i take pride in my collection of old 2nd edition books, not because they are usuable in gameplay, but because they have neat and intriguing nuggets of stories that paint a larger picture of the imperium. to have those stories ret-conned and rewritten makes me feel like what i had purchased doesnt have value.
/end rant

as for the BL HH books, i am reading them and i take great pleasure in all the side-stories that go on within the bigger story. sure the lion ends up pwning luthor and then disappearing but what if he only does it because of some other reason besides love of the emperor? im intrigued about that blurb, and will obviously buy the book. :)

The Emperor
04-05-2009, 07:04
Man, can't anybody get this guys name right? His name's not Lionel Johnson. It's Lion El'Jonson. Lion is one word. El is part of El'Jonson, a separate word. And there is no "h".

Lion
El'Jonson

Lion
El'Jonson

Lion
El'Jonson

Lion
El'Jonson

Lion
El'Jonson

Nicha11
04-05-2009, 08:30
Man, can't anybody get this guys name right? His name's not Lionel Johnson. It's Lion El'Jonson. Lion is one word. El is part of El'Jonson, a separate word. And there is no "h".



You would know, you are the Emperor:p

Logarithm Udgaur
04-05-2009, 08:51
It is because he is a bad rip off of that guy from thundercats, Thundercats, THUNDERCATS!

changer of fate
04-05-2009, 10:19
well, for some guard armies that don't know about he heresy and fought with the post heresy dark angels will think they were traitors because they pulled out for no obivouse reason and refuse to explain after a whole freaking sector is lost because they left half way through.

Chaos Undecided
04-05-2009, 10:37
It does almost seem to me that the Heresy books are suggesting the chapter is getting torn apart by paranoia and a palpable lack of brotherhood between the Dark Angels originating from Terra and the newer members inducted since discovering Caliban.

History is written by the winners so who's to say that the garrison on Caliban really fired the first shot when the Lion's fleet returned home. I dont think the Lion was a traitor he just let his own doubts and mistrusts get the best of him (maybe agents of one of the traitor legions has a hand in playing on his troubled mind to end up seeing enemies where there are none).

narrativium
04-05-2009, 10:39
Logarithm Udgaur: I take it you've never heard of the poet Lionel Johnson, then.

Vote Kantor
04-05-2009, 11:29
I always like the idea that nobody is traitor: with luthor and the garrison believing lion is the traitor, and lion believing luthor is the traitor. The entire thing would be a very gothic, 4TK moment (yes, i went a step further and made it 4TK pronounced: four tee kay, sorry)

Logarithm Udgaur
04-05-2009, 11:34
Logarithm Udgaur: I take it you've never heard of the poet Lionel Johnson, then.

I have, but he did not go around with a big honkin' sword yelling "Cleanse the Fallen!" He just wrote gay poems.

Altanis
04-05-2009, 11:56
I'm gonna have to go with Luthar being loyal and Lion El'Johnson being the traitor.

TheLionReturns
04-05-2009, 12:23
GW would have to go against a lot of the established fluff to have Jonson as the traitor and Luthor as loyal. I'm sure they are good enough to write an interesting story whilst staying within the constraints of what has already been written. My guess would be the Lion's suspicion creating divisions in the chapter and a Chaos corrupted Luthor using these divisions to convince those around him that Jonson is a traitor.

Maidel
04-05-2009, 13:15
I always like the idea that nobody is traitor: with luthor and the garrison believing lion is the traitor, and lion believing luthor is the traitor. The entire thing would be a very gothic, 4TK moment (yes, i went a step further and made it 4TK pronounced: four tee kay, sorry)

Utterly agree - I think this would be the perfect ending to it - it would fit exactly with the rumours and stuff thats been around all this time.

Horus could have been sowing discord with both sides, telling the lion that luther was a traitor and vica versa when he decided they wouldnt turn to his side - let them wipe themselves out.

As for luther being able to fight the lion, ive always thought this was because the lion actually didnt want to kill him because it was his friend.

ryng_sting
04-05-2009, 13:17
Think I'll read the book and then decide.

Spider-pope
04-05-2009, 13:26
Well i know Lionel Johnson converted to Catholicism pretty late in his life,but branding him a traitor is pretty harsh. You write one sonnet to Oscar Wilde, and you are branded forever.

If you mean Lion El'Jonson i dont believe he will turn out to be a traitor, despite what certain Fallen might claim. I mean its pretty obvious the guy is a tool, and your only his friend when you do exactly what he wants, but still i dont think he will go traitor. I quite like the idea from earlier in the thread, that no-one is a traitor and its a set-up to get the Dark Angels to destroy each other. Although the results may be too similar to the Thousand Sons- not really traitor but forced to side with chaos when everyone thinks they are.

Maidel
04-05-2009, 13:36
Although the results may be too similar to the Thousand Sons- not really traitor but forced to side with chaos when everyone thinks they are.

Well - how about adding the alpha legion to that list as well...

Spider-pope
04-05-2009, 13:40
I wouldnt class the Alpha Legion as the same though. They did willingly side with Horus afterall, they werent forced to by overreacting loyalists like the Thousand Sons, albeit after being manipulated by Xenos filth.

massey
04-05-2009, 14:03
History is written by the winners so who's to say that the garrison on Caliban really fired the first shot when the Lion's fleet returned home.

The guy who pulled the trigger admitted that he fired first. But he thinks he did it in a Han Solo shoots Greedo first kind of way (because he just knew the Dark Angels were corrupted).

The thing you have to take from that Angels of Darkness book, the Fallen guy has his own justifications for everything. But when the Dark Angels found him, he's conquered this planet and has killed like 70% of its population through his purges. And he's like "oh, I'm a nice guy, I had to do this blah blah blah for the greater good". I mean, he'd be that planet's equivalent of Joseph Stalin, or worse. Yet because he's written as a sympathetic character who claims to be honorable and noble, we're supposed to believe him. We also see other Fallen in the book who are pretty much running around carving 8 pointed stars into people and screaming out "blood for the blood god". So I think it's obvious that at least some of the Fallen are actually full-blown Chaos guys.

Maidel
04-05-2009, 14:08
I wouldnt class the Alpha Legion as the same though. They did willingly side with Horus afterall, they werent forced to by overreacting loyalists like the Thousand Sons, albeit after being manipulated by Xenos filth.

Yes - but they 'sided' with horus because they knew the only way of defeating chaos was to do that - which was in the best interrests of humanity and the imperium.

The thousand sons werent exactly 'loyal' before the wolves kicked them back to the eye - they were possibly the least loyal before the heresy by doing everything the emperor told them not to.

El_Machinae
04-05-2009, 15:08
I'm not gonna say he's a traitor, but I expect that there will be very little to redeem him with, though.

KingDeath
04-05-2009, 16:10
Yes - but they 'sided' with horus because they knew the only way of defeating chaos was to do that - which was in the best interrests of humanity and the imperium.

The thousand sons werent exactly 'loyal' before the wolves kicked them back to the eye - they were possibly the least loyal before the heresy by doing everything the emperor told them not to.

Erm, no. The Alpha Legion just believed that they know something. They simply trusted some Xeno guys without any evidence. There is a good chance that they were simply manipulated, either by the Cabal or even by the Chaos gods themselfs ( who in turn manipulated the Cabal to manipulate the Alpha Legion, sounds pretty Tzeentshian doesnt it? :) )

clanfield
04-05-2009, 16:18
mayhaps the author is try to make you all feel the conflict between the fallen and the angels,and a bit of the guilt when it unfolds ,muhahahahhahah

abasio
04-05-2009, 16:33
Man, can't anybody get this guys name right? His name's not Lionel Johnson. It's Lion El'Jonson. Lion is one word. El is part of El'Jonson, a separate word. And there is no "h".


Tell that to the guy who wrote the blurb for the book on the website

http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

:wtf:

Wintermute
04-05-2009, 16:35
Tell that to the guy who wrote the blurb for the book on the website

http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

:wtf:

The link doesn't work for me :eek:

Crube
04-05-2009, 16:37
Works fine for me...

shame the blurb writer doesn't seem to know his stuff... oh wait this is BL right. Why am I not surprised. Personally with BL nothing would surprise me anymore

Maidel
04-05-2009, 17:05
Erm, no. The Alpha Legion just believed that they know something. They simply trusted some Xeno guys without any evidence. There is a good chance that they were simply manipulated, either by the Cabal or even by the Chaos gods themselfs ( who in turn manipulated the Cabal to manipulate the Alpha Legion, sounds pretty Tzeentshian doesnt it? :) )

Yes - but thats nearly the same as magnus.

The alpha legion did, what alpharius/omegron thought was the right thing for humanity - were they manipulated - probably - but they didnt turn traitor like horus/angron/etc legions.

Both magnus and alpharius were loyal, until pushed - and then they only turned because they thought it was their only option. However, whereas magnus then devoted himself to teezench - there is pretty good evidence that alpharius didnt go fully over to chaos - some of the alpha legion did, but there is pretty good evidence that some of them are still unmutated normal marines (possibly)

Aranel
04-05-2009, 23:35
I reckon the lion was loyal. From DoA it seems he revered the Emperor and Horus reveals in HR and FG's that he and the Lion did not really get along. I can't see him allying with Horus over the E.

I agree he's a moody bugger though!

Finn
05-05-2009, 00:14
I agree he's a moody bugger though!

So what you're all saying is that Lion El'Jonson is a parody of emo kid culture. Got it.

His story is like Jungle Book without a big singing bear.


Humor aside, El'Jonson is a pretty good representation of how I imagine a lot of feudal/medieval lords might have behaved. Which is fitting, when you look at Caliban's history.

Mannimarco
05-05-2009, 00:28
lion el'jonson is loyal, hes a bit of an oppertunist yes but still loyal

isnt it accepted that the dark angels fleet was moving a lot slower than they are capable as they were making their way to terra? a lot of people believe that this was the DA watching for a winner before they showed their allegience

also on the return to Caliban, el'jonson fought against luthor who was tanked up on chaos power (sort of like a mini horus), those are not the actions of a traitor

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-05-2009, 00:35
I think he wasn't a full-blown traitor, but the idea of him sitting on the fence has some merit.

massey
05-05-2009, 00:44
Yes - but thats nearly the same as magnus.

The alpha legion did, what alpharius/omegron thought was the right thing for humanity - were they manipulated - probably - but they didnt turn traitor like horus/angron/etc legions.

Both magnus and alpharius were loyal, until pushed - and then they only turned because they thought it was their only option. However, whereas magnus then devoted himself to teezench - there is pretty good evidence that alpharius didnt go fully over to chaos - some of the alpha legion did, but there is pretty good evidence that some of them are still unmutated normal marines (possibly)

Didn't turn traitor? No, the Alpha Legion still turned. They just may have done it for other reasons. But they were fighting under the Chaos banner just the same. I'm sure originally Horus thought he was turning for a good reason, too.


lion el'jonson is loyal, hes a bit of an oppertunist yes but still loyal

isnt it accepted that the dark angels fleet was moving a lot slower than they are capable as they were making their way to terra? a lot of people believe that this was the DA watching for a winner before they showed their allegience

also on the return to Caliban, el'jonson fought against luthor who was tanked up on chaos power (sort of like a mini horus), those are not the actions of a traitor

No, there's nothing that says the Dark Angel fleet was moving slowly. It is only known that they got to the party late. Back in 2nd edition, that was because the Space Wolves had to stop every five minutes, and both the Dark Angels and the Wolves were way on the other side of the galaxy when they found out. In one of the Dark Angel books, a Fallen states that he believes El'Jonson was waiting to see who won. But there's no corroboration of that.

Again, I think he's kind of a tool. He's that guy who always acts suspicious, and nobody trusts him, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily up to no good.

TheLionReturns
05-05-2009, 00:48
isnt it accepted that the dark angels fleet was moving a lot slower than they are capable as they were making their way to terra? a lot of people believe that this was the DA watching for a winner before they showed their allegience


The Dark Angels were making their way to Terra with the Space Wolves. The Lion wanted to head to Terra as quickly as possible whilst Russ wanted to stop and save every world they passed. The pair came to blows after the Siege of Terra with the Lion blaming Russ for the delay. Russ bared his chest and invited Jonson to strike in his guilt, which Jonson did pulling the blow before it was fatal. Russ recovered and, with Dorn, they swore an oath not to fight one another again.

The whole wait and see theory of the Lion seems at odds with the presence of the Space Wolves on the journey, particularly the contrasting attitudes of Russ and Jonson. It would seem that this is one of the things they would have to write over if they wanted to take him down the fence sitting path.

The Anarchist
05-05-2009, 00:52
El'johnson was not a clean cut character so to me it seems unlikly he made it obvious who his loyalties lay with. would make much more sense from a very nuterual view point if El'jonson is securing the planets for himself, a bargaining chip you might say. for example he could hold them till he decides for whom he thinks more likly to win and therefore who he supports. if he want a Horus he would let him pas through and join him, or if the Emerpor he can use it to hold off hourus till the space wolves get there and further strenghten his position; so earning him major brownie points with daddy. alternativly he could say to Hourus i will hold you here for months on end, until i see the shift of power in your deirection, he then lets Hourus througha nd joins him as he belives Hourus more likly to win should some major event occur.

As for his fight with Luthor after the hearesy, so whos to say if he ahd returned after supporting Horus he wouldn't have been welcomed home by his equaly chaoticly cururpted father figure Luthor. also he could jsut as easyily returned to find after supporting Horus that Luthor supported the Emperor as he ahd supported Chaos and so would ahve fought anyway.

ulitmatly the DA are much like the Alpha Legion they are the grey to the rest of their resepective factions (Horus-ites or loyalists) making tought decision and being less in one camp, maybe even changing. so it is perfectly possible the BL author has made all previous fluff fit as well as give us soemthing new and unexpected. afterall it was done with Gavriel Loken and his perspective of the start.

The Emperor
05-05-2009, 01:10
Nice to see the last couple posters spelling Lion El'Jonson's name correctly. I'm very proud of myself, and you can rest assured that I'll be claiming any and all credit for that fact. :D

As for Lion El'Jonson being the traitor, if that's the case, then that'd be in direct refutation of established fluff. Codex: Angels of Death made it explicitly clear who was the traitor and who was the loyalist. And one can't claim that it was a biased perspective, because it was written from "God's Eye View", and the text discusses things which nobody can possibly know (like the final fate of Lion El'Jonson). Anyway, from Codex: Angels of Death...


It had been many long years since Jonson had been to Caliban, and he longed to see his home world once more. As the unsuspecting ships of Jonson's fleet moved into orbit they were met by a devastating barrage of defence laser fire. Ships exploded into flame and crashed to the surface like monstrous comets. Stunned by the attack, Jonson withdrew and attempted to find out what had happened.

A captured merchant ship soon provided the answer: Luther had used his skills at oratory to lead the Dark Angels under his command to the path of Chaos, instilling his own feelings of jealosy and rage in the Dark Angels who had been left on Caliban during the Great Crusade. Luther had convinced them that they had been shamed, that the Emperor had turned his face from them (And they were right. I'm such a bastard :p).

While Jonson and those Space Marines who had gone with him battled for humanity light years away, Luther's feelings of anger and jealousy had grown within him like a corrupting canker until they were his only purpose and driving motivation. Luther was now a man obsessed, whose own neuroses had pushed him over the edge and made him dangerous beyond imagining.

The fury of Jonson and the loyal Dark Angels at learning this horrible information knew no bounds. They had fought from one end of the galaxy to the other and thought that the curse of Chaos had been cleansed from the planets of the Imperium, and now they found that their own home world, and their own brethren, had been corrupted and turned against them. Jonson immediately ordered an assault on the planet, driving the rebel Dark Angels back to their fortress monasteries.

Knowing that one surgical strike was all that was needed to end the conflict Lion El'Jonson led an assault on the greatest monastery himself. He knew that this was where he would find Luther: and so it was that there, the two former friends, now mortal enemies, faced each other. Even thought the Primarch possessed superhuman powers, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luther's own considerable abilities had been greatly enhanced by the dark gods of Chaos.

What followed was a fight of titanic proportions during which the two equally-matched adversaries laid blow for blow against each other, tearing down the monastery around them until the whole massive edifice had been levelled by their battle. Meanwhile the massed guns of the fleet carried on pounding the planet, reducing the fortress monasteries to rubble. The very surface of Caliban began to crack and heave under the strain of the bombardment.

As the planet itself started to break apart, the battle between Jonson and Luther reached its climax. Luther, weakened by the long combat, staggered and fell, leaving himself open to a death blow from Jonson's power sword. But Jonson could not bring himself to strike the fatal blow. As he hesitated, Luther, aided by the powers of Chaos, unleashed a furious physic attack that knocked Jonson to his knees and left him mortally wounded. But as the dying Primarch struggled to stand, his noble features racked with pain, it was as if a curtain was lifted from Luther's eyes and he realised the full extent of what he had done. His was a triple betrayal: of his friend, of the Dark Angels, and of the Emperor. The truth shattered his sanity and he slumped down beside Jonson, no longer willing to fight.

Luther's psychic cry of pain and despair echoed through the warp and the Chaos gods realised, that once again, they had been defeated. They lashed out in fury and frustration. A rent appeared in the very fabric of space and a warp storm of unprecedented fury engulfed Caliban. In an uncontrollable, swirling flood of psychic energy the warp rushed into the physical universe. Those 'fallen' Dark Angels who had served under Luther and his clandestine masters were sucked from the face of Caliban into the warp and scattered throughout space and time. Caliban, already weakened by the loyal Dark Angels' bombardment, was ripped apart and destroyed, the debris being sucked into the warp.

The only part of the planet that survived the storm was the huge fortress monastery where Jonson and Luther had fought. Protected by force fields of awesome power the monastery and a huge chunk of the bed-rock of Caliban held together. When the storm abated this was all that was left of the once magnificent home world of the Dark Angels.

The Dark Angels flew down to the dark surface of the rock and gazed about them in horror at all that remained of their once beautiful home world. The great fortress had been razed to the ground and of all the living things that had once teemed across the face of Caliban only one remained. At the heart of the ruined wasteland the Space Marines found Luther. The warriors were unable to get anything coherent out of the shell of the man who had once been Jonson's closest friend and second-in-command. Luther just constantly repeated the same words over and over again: The Primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark and one day he would return to forgive Luther for the terrible sins he had committed. Of the mighty Primarch, Lion El'Jonson, there was no sign.

Luther and the Fallen had clearly turned to Chaos, Luther had only been able to match Lion El'Jonson after being juiced up by the Chaos Gods, and knowing full well that he was the guilty party, Luther spends all his time nowadays gibbering about how Lion El'Jonson will come back someday to forgive him. Seems pretty clear to me who the actual traitors are.

If that's not enough, the same is repeated in Codex: Chaos, which once again labels the Fallen as the traitors, though it states that not all of the Fallen have succumbed to Chaos to the same degree. So while every single Fallen is not a Chaos worshipper, every single Fallen is a traitor. All of that's pretty unequivocal. If a novel states otherwise, well, either A) the writer hasn't actually done his homework and is making up his own stuff, or B) the writer has done their homework, and in an effort to be "creative", he's making it all up whole cloth, and completely disregarding the actual history.

Mannimarco
05-05-2009, 01:18
going by past experience, im leaning heavily towards A

Drakon
05-05-2009, 01:28
Erm, no. The Alpha Legion just believed that they know something. They simply trusted some Xeno guys without any evidence. There is a good chance that they were simply manipulated, either by the Cabal or even by the Chaos gods themselfs ( who in turn manipulated the Cabal to manipulate the Alpha Legion, sounds pretty Tzeentshian doesnt it? :) )

I always find this hard to believe that the Cabal said you have to turn to choas for the greater good and they said "sweet as we will" and left them to it. Doesn't sound very space marinish to me. My understanding is they would have just killed the xeno's and be done with it.

OT: I don't think the book will reveal who is the traitor and who isn't. Doesn't seem right to me to destroy one of the biggest debates in 40K.

DapperAnarchist
05-05-2009, 01:34
If it turns out that no-one chose Chaos willingly... well, its not a big departure from the pre-novels knowledge. For ages, its been that Horus' betrayal to the Powers was only really revealed late in the Heresy, and before that it was just "The Emperor has abandoned us for his silly administrators! [now scientists] The Emperor has forgotten his role as leader! The Emperor just doesn't understand the life of the working marine nowadays!"

MadDoc
05-05-2009, 01:50
Gav Thorpe started the whole the DAs are the traitors and the Fallen are just misunderstood/misrepresented thing with his book Angels of Darkness. Whether or not that was his intent remains to be seen.

To Gav if you happen to read this: Was that your intent?

Thanks so much for that too Gav, and all the ill-informed Pro-Fallen/'DAs are Traitors' threads and their ilk that've been spawned as a result...

While its not Gav's fault that there seem to be a large number of people unable (or unwilling) to realise that, as a self confessed Traitor, Astelan's protestations are likely to show a distinct bias towards his compatriots and himself, and will invariably paint them in the best possible light, and are not in fact the unfettered truth. He couldn't have given them more encouragement, even if he'd included the phrase "now go online and spread your ill-reasoned myopic arguments" as the closing line of the book.

Nothing personal Gav (I know you frequent these boards) it just gets so annoying seeing the same flawed/ill-considered arguments repeated ad nauseam. In particular when the lion share of evidence stands in direct contradiction to the point certain people seem hellbent on pushing.

DapperAnarchist
05-05-2009, 02:58
Gav does seem to be a fan of the "Everything You Know Is A Lie" school of GW fluffology (well, he came up with the phrase). However, I think here its more "Bad guys never think they are", a much more interesting fact. Do you think Abbadon thinks he's evil? Or Kharn? Its why bad guys are more interesting - they think differently to the way the world is.

And yes, the Lion's share is on the Lion's side...

Mannimarco
05-05-2009, 03:03
er yeah kharn probably doesnt realise he evil, kill maim burn kill maim burn, the whole concept of right and wrong is probably lost to him by now

i for one hope they dont give us the true ending to the "loyalty of the DA" debate, its much more interesting with some loose threads, like the missing primarchs, makes it more fun not having all the info

Ddraiglais
05-05-2009, 08:03
Wow, every time this subject comes up; it's easy to spot the DA players. I still think it could go either way (or no way at all) without contradicting fluff.

The Emperor
05-05-2009, 08:43
Wow, every time this subject comes up; it's easy to spot the DA players.

Yep. They're the well-informed people who actually have a clue about what they're talking about. :p

genestealer_baldric
05-05-2009, 09:37
he almost killed Russ a loyal primark so yes he is very suspect ;)

TheDarkDaff
05-05-2009, 10:09
he almost killed Russ a loyal primark so yes he is very suspect ;)

You left out the bit how Russ is not only responsible for another primarch turning to Chaos but he is also responsible for the Emporer's near dead state butdragging his feet on the way to terra.

I feel i have to say i am a Dark Angels player and i am really worried by the author of that book. Mike Lee's grasp of established facts is probably the second worst in the entire Black library, he hasn't managed to displace Abnett from that position (have a look at the Malus Darkblade series those two co-wrote - the fluff was violated like a Slaaneshi religious event).

Drakon
05-05-2009, 10:45
Wow, every time this subject comes up; it's easy to spot the DA players....


Yep. They're the well-informed people who actually have a clue about what they're talking about. :p

How can they be well informed when they have secrets even amongst themselves. Only once they have fully embraced chaos are they told of the righteous fallen and told to exterminate them at any cost.


You left out the bit how Russ is not only responsible for another primarch turning to Chaos but he is also responsible for the Emporer's near dead state butdragging his feet on the way to terra.

...

What the witches? they were already tainted and the up and coming book will prove that. I would be worried if i was a DA player all your dirty secrets possibly coming out :evilgrin:

DapperAnarchist
05-05-2009, 12:03
I'm getting the feeling that all BL books should be co-written - the author, who should be chosen for being able to turn a phrase and weave a plot (Abnett is ok at this, actually) and a member of Warseer to go "uh, hold on a minute, Primarch Rubinek? Are you sure you mean Primarch?"

Everyone would be happier. Except people waiting for the next bit of silliness to wave in the internets face, saying "look! I found proof that Cypher is really an Ultramarine!!!!!"

reds8n
05-05-2009, 12:44
I believe Mr. Lee said on the BL forums that the Lion will be battling the Sons of Horus in their/his part of the book...so i think he will be, in this book anyway, a loyalist.

Given his experiences in "Descent..." I would reckon he might be much more willing to accept the possibility of marine fighting brother marine or turning traitor.

His original timeline/plan changed a bit, this story apparently ends about at the same time that Ferrus and Co arrive at Istvaan V.

Most intriguing snippet he dropped was


As to why Jonson was so highly regarded...well, the book touches on that somewhat, as well as its wider ramifications

See the thread here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11239&PN=1)

pookie
05-05-2009, 13:02
The Dark Angels were making their way to Terra with the Space Wolves. The Lion wanted to head to Terra as quickly as possible whilst Russ wanted to stop and save every world they passed. The pair came to blows after the Siege of Terra with the Lion blaming Russ for the delay. Russ bared his chest and invited Jonson to strike in his guilt, which Jonson did pulling the blow before it was fatal. Russ recovered and, with Dorn, they swore an oath not to fight one another again.

The whole wait and see theory of the Lion seems at odds with the presence of the Space Wolves on the journey, particularly the contrasting attitudes of Russ and Jonson. It would seem that this is one of the things they would have to write over if they wanted to take him down the fence sitting path.

Can you remeber the story and where its from? ive tried to quote this as evidance that the DA and Sw were together trying to get back to Terra, yet people seem to doubt this.

i know in the distant past ive read it soemwhere, but i ust cannot remeber where.

laudarkul
05-05-2009, 14:16
Lion'El Johnson was not a traitor; he was an opportunist. He just delay his legion involvment in the tragic events during the HH in order to see who is the winner(I know this is based on a Fallen statement). It's strange his behaviour anyway (to shadow the original terran chapters with those from Caliban/to make his soldiers first at all loyal to him then the Emperor...).

laudarkul
05-05-2009, 14:20
i know in the distant past ive read it soemwhere, but i ust cannot remeber where.

It's from the DA Codex, page 20, The Lion and the Wolf. The action takes place during the Great Crusade on the world of Dulan.

DapperAnarchist
05-05-2009, 14:49
And, as I recall, that (or at least something similar from White Dwarf in the Codex:DA release issue) was written from the Space Wolves viewpoint, via an Inquisitor.

pookie
05-05-2009, 14:57
It's from the DA Codex, page 20, The Lion and the Wolf. The action takes place during the Great Crusade on the world of Dulan.

if you mean the most recent DA Dex, then thats not the one im thinking of, its possible from around 2nd edition.

DapperAnarchist
05-05-2009, 15:11
What I mentioned is from when I was last buying White Dwarf, so that would be the first DA codex after 3rd Edition came out. It was a big in-universe piece, a sort of "Bluffers Guide" to the rivalry between Lion and Russ.

pookie
05-05-2009, 15:17
What I mentioned is from when I was last buying White Dwarf, so that would be the first DA codex after 3rd Edition came out. It was a big in-universe piece, a sort of "Bluffers Guide" to the rivalry between Lion and Russ.

hmmm didnt have the 3rd ed DA dex, must have maybe been a reprint from a earlier source thanks though.

laudarkul
05-05-2009, 15:38
if you mean the most recent DA Dex, then thats not the one im thinking of, its possible from around 2nd edition.

That story I read it in the last DA Codex. It's the last version of the "conflict" between Lion'El Johnson and Leman Russ/ DA vs. SW.

TheLionReturns
07-05-2009, 22:47
Can you remeber the story and where its from? ive tried to quote this as evidance that the DA and Sw were together trying to get back to Terra, yet people seem to doubt this.

i know in the distant past ive read it soemwhere, but i ust cannot remeber where.

I believe the story was called "the Lion and the Wolf part 2" and it was published in White Dwarf. I can't remember which issue I'm afraid. There are references to Russ and the Lion traveling back to terra together in the DA Codex (page 8 under "The Fall of Caliban") but no real detail as to the journey and its aftermath.

Arakanis
08-05-2009, 03:17
Erm, no. The Alpha Legion just believed that they know something. They simply trusted some Xeno guys without any evidence. There is a good chance that they were simply manipulated, either by the Cabal or even by the Chaos gods themselfs ( who in turn manipulated the Cabal to manipulate the Alpha Legion, sounds pretty Tzeentshian doesnt it? :) )

In much older fluff, the Alpha Legion was known to be Tzeentchian in nature. ;)

Arakanis
08-05-2009, 03:22
How can they be well informed when they have secrets even amongst themselves. Only once they have fully embraced chaos are they told of the righteous fallen and told to exterminate them at any cost. You disagree with The Emperor?! Heretic! *readies his bolt pistol* Proof that those that decry the Lion are Traitors all!




I would be worried if i was a DA player all your dirty secrets possibly coming out :evilgrin: What dirty secrets? Oh. Yes. Those secrets. Yes. Please step into the booth and we will tell you everything you want to know about our secrets. Yes.

reds8n
08-05-2009, 13:03
Incidentally, the Fallen Angels (http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book) extract is up now.

Lion El Jason
09-05-2009, 02:57
Lion El'Jonson isn't a traitor, he's just loyal to a higher ideal. Its more important that the dark angels are around to defend humanity regardless of who wins the little family feud, horus or the emperor.
This is especially cool if you look how the chapter (Legion ;)) acts today.. this is highlighted in Angels of Darkness.

As a little side note, most DA players don't disagree about Lion El'Jonson being a sneaky bastard, but its clear (Even obvious) that the fallen are the bad guys. What really annoys me is all the "Cypher is a good guy" crap we get from people who know nothing about the 40k background.
Theres no evidence for it, there's conclusive proof against it.

Finn
09-05-2009, 03:53
I see Cypher maybe more as an agent of truth, and the truth doesn't pick sides :P. Especially if both sides aren't telling it. He's "chaos" because if you're against the Imperium you're sort of lumped in with everybody else, regardless of whether he'd rather "free" or kill the Emperor.

aim
09-05-2009, 04:04
Retconned? I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Dark Angels is that it was never clear which side they took. It may have been made more clear in later stories for people who didn't get it but its always been there (of the top of my head in a tad tipsy state id say look at angels of darkness for an example of it since its the best i can come up with, and even that was pretty clear about it).

The Emperor
09-05-2009, 11:01
Retconned? I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Dark Angels is that it was never clear which side they took.

I don't see how you get that, as it was made explicitly clear right off the bat, when they first got their origin laid out in Angels of Death. Lion El'Jonson was on the side of the Emperor, Luther and the Fallen had turned to Chaos. It's that simple. Look up-thread for an earlier post of mine and you'll see a direct quote from that Codex which lays it all out very clearly.


It may have been made more clear in later stories for people who didn't get it but its always been there (of the top of my head in a tad tipsy state id say look at angels of darkness for an example of it since its the best i can come up with, and even that was pretty clear about it).

Angels of Darkness isn't anywhere near the league of the unbiased recount of background that we got in Angels of Death. Instead, we got a story from a Fallen Angel who had every reason to lie, and whose words contradict Luther, himself! Geeze, how I despise that book. It was actually a fun read, but that's offset by seeing the sheer number of people who keep pointing to that book as if it means anything, when it doesn't mean squat.

We have established fluff which states very clearly who was on what side, and why the Lion didn't reach Terra in time for the siege (which had nothing to do with him and everything to do with Leman Russ). Fluff which existed for seven or more years before Angels of Darkness reared its ugly, malformed head. And yet people completely disregard background fluff which is clearly written from an omniscient, unbiased point-of-view in favor of what a Fallen Dark Angel has to say, even though he has every reason to lie?

Guess it's true what they say. People truly do see what they want to see, even if it's at variance with what're actually established facts.

dblaz3r
09-05-2009, 11:44
I myself always thought it'd be pretty cool if Lionel was simply waiting to see who he thought would win for sure before joining in.

I had a break from 40k from just before Codex: Angels of Death until the latest codex was released and for some reason this was how I remembered the story had being played out. I was quickly re-educated by the fine historians of Warseer. :D


In particular when the lion share of evidence stands in direct contradiction to the point certain people seem hellbent on pushing.

I like what you did here. ;)

TheLionReturns
09-05-2009, 12:30
I think before Angels of Darkness the DA were always seen as loyal, but that they had come close to falling. This was stated in 2nd edition Codex Imperialis and later expanded in Angels of Death as the Fall of Caliban and corruption of Luthor. This has been repeated in subsequent army books. Angels of Darkness exploited the vague nature of any of the information on chapter histories and the Horus Heresy to suggest an alternative (i.e. what if the Lion came close to falling too?).

I see Angels of Darkness as a character study of a Fallen. How would one justify his actions? The idea of Jonson being a traitor is nothing more that a theory to me, one that Astelan bought into as a result of the corrupting nature of Luthors oratory. I actually think it is a great book, just one that people take far too literally.

I am all for Jonson being tempted, this seems a theme of the series and would seem to fit into the established character of the Primarch and the chapter. However, I think he should be written to come out of it loyal, even if he came very close to falling and perhaps did something bad. Having Jonson tempted, being manipulated into doing something that helped Hours and then redeeming himself heroically by making up for his error would be very in character, and his Chapter as a whole can be seen to be following this same path ever since.

Talos402000
09-05-2009, 14:33
I have a feeling that the next book will have a split between the Calibanite marines who are loyal to Lionel and the Marines (mostly Terrans) who are loyal to the Emperor. And by the way, those two loyalties are NOT the same thing.

Grubnar
09-05-2009, 16:09
Second, we have the Space Wolves. The Dark Angels with the Lion traveled with the Wolves on their way to Earth. By all accounts, the Space Wolves wanted to stop and fight at every planet while the Dark Angels wanted to hurry to Earth. When they were delayed and arrived too late, the two primarchs got into a fight about it. By some accounts, El'Jonson had Russ as good as dead, but stayed his hand. I don't think a traitor primarch would have done so.

What! Says who? Where? I am a Space Wolves player and this is the first time I have heard this. So I would really like some clarifacation on this.

It has always been thought that onw of the reasons Horus lowered his shield in the Battle for Terra was because the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were on their way and he needed to end the battle before they arrived. But I have never seen a claim they were traveling together. In fact I thought that would be highly unlikely since they were in different parts of the galaxy.

aim
09-05-2009, 17:09
Meh, like everything games workshop its been left open for interpretation so far. I've always thought of them as being pretty suspect myself, thats why I always like them as an army and was tempted to collect them, kind of 'on the edge' and mysterious. Last I'll say in this thread though since as with every discussion on the internet, some fans are getting a bit too heated and starting to make statements lie 'its stupid to discount this book that supports my theory, you should discount that book that supports yours' without realising how closed minded it sounds and it will probably only get worse haha. Its a testament to how well thought up some of the stuff in 40k is that people can get so behind armies and characters they like :)

massey
09-05-2009, 23:36
I think before Angels of Darkness the DA were always seen as loyal, but that they had come close to falling. This was stated in 2nd edition Codex Imperialis and later expanded in Angels of Death as the Fall of Caliban and corruption of Luthor. This has been repeated in subsequent army books. Angels of Darkness exploited the vague nature of any of the information on chapter histories and the Horus Heresy to suggest an alternative (i.e. what if the Lion came close to falling too?).

I see Angels of Darkness as a character study of a Fallen. How would one justify his actions? The idea of Jonson being a traitor is nothing more that a theory to me, one that Astelan bought into as a result of the corrupting nature of Luthors oratory. I actually think it is a great book, just one that people take far too literally.


I agree. The book was pretty good, but Astelan really doesn't have anything to back up his theory. What we have is the guy who admitted to firing first, without any proof. He thinks the Dark Angels had already fallen to Chaos, so he shoots planetary defense systems at them. Everything else (Lion waiting to see who won, etc) is his speculation.

It's interesting that in the Gav Thorpe books, the Lion appears to be favoring the Caliban marines, having them follow the "loyal" Terrans. In Descent of Angels (and the Fallen Angels excerpt above), it's the Caliban marines who are sent back, so the Lion can go hang out with his new cool friends. Don't know what they'll make of that.


What! Says who? Where? I am a Space Wolves player and this is the first time I have heard this. So I would really like some clarifacation on this.

It has always been thought that onw of the reasons Horus lowered his shield in the Battle for Terra was because the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were on their way and he needed to end the battle before they arrived. But I have never seen a claim they were traveling together. In fact I thought that would be highly unlikely since they were in different parts of the galaxy.

Somewhere earlier in the thread someone posted the story. Supposedly the two groups were traveling together, and the Space Wolves were wanting to stop at every fire hydrant... err... every battle and fight Chaos. So when they get to Earth a moment to late, Lion El'Jonson picks a fight with Leman Russ because he made them late. Leman Russ tells him to just go ahead and stab him (or something like that), so the Lion does. He sticks him in the heart with the Sword of Omens, and he's ready to shove the sword all the way into Russ' secondary heart (which would kill him), but then he realizes it's not Russ' fault, he was just trying to help people, and the Lion pulls his sword out.

MadDoc
10-05-2009, 00:06
He sticks him in the heart with the Sword of Omens, and he's ready to shove the sword all the way into Russ' secondary heart (which would kill him), but then he realizes it's not Russ' fault, he was just trying to help people, and the Lion pulls his sword out.

Wait... when did the 'Lion and the Wolf 2' story migrate into the Thundercats universe? :p

Think you may have meant the Lion Sword there. :angel:

Fulgrim's Gimp
10-05-2009, 01:16
In much older fluff, the Alpha Legion was known to be Tzeentchian in nature. ;)

Really, I always thought the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were listed as Slaanesh marines on the banner page in Slaves To Darkness?

HK-47
10-05-2009, 01:31
I don't think Johnson was a traitor, he was just very paranoid. What caused this paranoia? I don't know, but something made him very distrustful of the Terran marines under his command and he alienated them. Already feeling betrayed by their Primarch the Terran marines came to the conclusion that he went over to Horus, and so Astelan ordered them to open fire.

Johnson was loyal, but he was so sneaky about everything that people thought he was a traitor.

Corton
10-05-2009, 02:13
Again, I think he's kind of a tool. He's that guy who always acts suspicious, and nobody trusts him, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily up to no good.


So....he's Batman?

massey
10-05-2009, 22:26
Wait... when did the 'Lion and the Wolf 2' story migrate into the Thundercats universe? :p

Think you may have meant the Lion Sword there. :angel:

Lion El', Lion-O. Same guy. :)


So....he's Batman?

Umm... sure.

Mannimarco
10-05-2009, 22:59
no night haunter was batman, runs around his home planet kicking the crap out of bad guys for fun.........and he was pretty dark and emo

The Emperor
11-05-2009, 07:54
Already feeling betrayed by their Primarch the Terran marines came to the conclusion that he went over to Horus, and so Astelan ordered them to open fire.

Contradicts established fluff, which states that the Dark Angels on Caliban had converted to Chaos. They didn't fire on Lion El'Jonson because they thought he'd turned to Chaos. They fired on him because they were the ones who'd converted to Chaos, and knew that there'd be a fight once the other Dark Angels found out, so they may as well get the drop on the Lion and his men.

genestealer_baldric
11-05-2009, 08:05
burn him, purge him , kill him......er.. What was the question again?

Talos402000
11-05-2009, 08:23
Contradicts established fluff, which states that the Dark Angels on Caliban had converted to Chaos. They didn't fire on Lion El'Jonson because they thought he'd turned to Chaos. They fired on him because they were the ones who'd converted to Chaos, and knew that there'd be a fight once the other Dark Angels found out, so they may as well get the drop on the Lion and his men.

Methinks that bit of ancient fluff is about to be retconned out of existence. Don't forget there were three factions on Caliban: Luther's contingent which had just been exiled by Lionel, Astellan's contingent which had been sent to Caliban following his dispute whith that other Dark Angel (that kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out dude:wtf:) and the Dark Angel's already on the planet. I don't think things will be as cut and dried as the old fluff anymore.

The Emperor
11-05-2009, 08:54
Methinks that bit of ancient fluff is about to be retconned out of existence.

If it happens, it's most likely because 1) the writer couldn't be bothered to research the history, or 2) the writer knows the history, but thinks that blatantly ignoring established history makes for clever writing (when, in fact, it just makes him a hack. A TRULY clever writer can take something that's already known, keep the facts the same, and yet weave a truly interesting story with plenty of surprises).

Either way, if it happens, it won't be a good thing. Last thing we need are writers at Black Library who don't bother to research the background when writing novels, or who do only to blatantly disregard what's already been written. However, it hasn't happened yet. Which means that, as the facts stand now, Lion El'Jonson was not a traitor, whereas the Fallen are clearly bad guys, no matter what Astellan may say.

TheDarkDaff
11-05-2009, 14:16
Methinks that bit of ancient fluff is about to be retconned out of existence. Don't forget there were three factions on Caliban: Luther's contingent which had just been exiled by Lionel, Astellan's contingent which had been sent to Caliban following his dispute whith that other Dark Angel (that kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out dude:wtf:) and the Dark Angel's already on the planet. I don't think things will be as cut and dried as the old fluff anymore.

Some of your facts are a little off.

Luther and his bunch had just almost allowed a large chunk of the Dark Angels Legion including the lion to be blown to smithereens. Luther is also made the Regent of Caliban and tasked with looking after the only recruiting ground of the Legion and their Homeworld. That is a huge honour (he is holding the past and future of the Dark Angels in his hands) but Luther took it the wrong way.

Astelan was sent to Garrison duty by the lion after disobeying a direct command from the Lion himself while the Lion had taken temporary command of his Chapter (which he did with every Dark Angels chapter to personally assess them). Fact is Astellan would have been excuted on the spot for what he did in almost any other Imperial Organisation.

The Dark Angels on Caliban are the newest recruits (the scouts) as they are traing to become Battle Brothers (apart from those like Astelan whose loyalty to the Imperium is questionable at best). They are raised in a Fuedal Warlike society and the Garrison duty is a burden to them. They are Crusaders first and foremost and all of them want to be out in the galaxy earning honour and glory.

As to those pointing to Angels of Darkness as proof of the Fallen being the true Loyalists. Astellan is contradictory in the extreme. He at one point proclaims the Dark Angels as traitors with absolute conviction but then says he had no idea what ws happening due to the scrambled communications. He denounces the Lion for his 'end justifies the means" approach then takes it even further by manufactoring wars of mass geneocide to justify his reign. The only thing he actually gets right (which Boreas is refering to when he says "He was right") is that the Dark Angels have allowed their shame to consume them and replace their real mission of defending the Imperium above all other considerations.

The Caliban Lion
11-05-2009, 14:26
Perhaps it was only the leaders on Caliban who fell to Chaos? The other marines was perhaps still loyal and truly belived Luther when he said that the Lion was a traitor? Writing it that way still makes Luther a chaos champion and still has the Lion as a loyal primarch (which I truly hope he remains as).

DapperAnarchist
11-05-2009, 14:55
What counts as "Fallen to Chaos"? Did the Death Guard fall to Chaos when they took the only option to escape plague ridden horror? Perhaps the twist will be the time-honoured "he was tricked!"...

Talos402000
11-05-2009, 20:05
If it happens, it's most likely because 1) the writer couldn't be bothered to research the history, or 2) the writer knows the history, but thinks that blatantly ignoring established history makes for clever writing (when, in fact, it just makes him a hack. A TRULY clever writer can take something that's already known, keep the facts the same, and yet weave a truly interesting story with plenty of surprises).

Either way, if it happens, it won't be a good thing. Last thing we need are writers at Black Library who don't bother to research the background when writing novels, or who do only to blatantly disregard what's already been written. However, it hasn't happened yet. Which means that, as the facts stand now, Lion El'Jonson was not a traitor, whereas the Fallen are clearly bad guys, no matter what Astellan may say.

Time will show whether Astellan was right or not (I believe he was right) and Mike Lee's writing is very good, certainly not a hack (whatever you might think). Everybody alwayse had a sneaking suspicion the Dark Angels were up to no good anyway (so I'm calling shenanigins on them)

What's happening on Caliban is of secondary importance to me, eh time will tell. What I really find interesting is whether Lionel is securing the Gehinnom system for the Emperor... or Horus? They are awfully ambiguos about it on the BL website. Were Lionel and the Dark Angels originally Traitors who returned to the fold... or did they just abandon chaos when Horus was killed without truly repenting? Enquiring minds want to know...? (Mine and the Inqusition's, that is). Can't wait till the book comes out.

Urath
11-05-2009, 21:11
Hmm. I'm afraid I haven't read "Angels of Darkness" by the (somewhat) infamous Gav Thorpe, so I'm not going to attempt to use it as an argument for or against. I have, however, read Codex: Angels of Death, Dark Angels 3rd Ed and the current Codex. With my copy of Tales of Heresy by my side I have read "Call of the Lion".

What I can gather from 40K in general, is that most up to date fluff is written from an official Imperial Perspective and fluff is often retconned or re-written. Codices are often written in this manner, so could not (excluding perhaps Angels of Death) the two subsequent Dark Angels codices be written from official Imperial Records? So, if we take that to be the case, judging by the heavily mysterious and often highly suspect nature and actions of the Dark Angels as a chapter, could this be misinformation?

"Call of the Lion" also terribly hints at strong rivalry between Caliban Marines and the original Terran members of the legion. from the last few lines of dialogue, it seems the Caliban Chapter Commander was sent to spy somewhat on Astelan and report back to Caliban and the Lion and mentions something like "betrayal will be punished".

Could this evident rivalry not have boiled over and caused the schism, though this would leave the Lion's part leaning towards the actions of his arrogant, warmongering Calibanian marines. Could the Terrans have attempted to purge the Caliban marines in order to stop a suspecting taint, after the heresy could their actions have been seen as possibly tainted due to their attitudes, I don't know. But it's a theory.

Btw, is it confirmed whether Terrans or Calibanians were stationed on Caliban during the Crusade?

Cheers.

blameless
11-05-2009, 23:46
I say its all in the name "Dark Angels"? HULLOOO! give away! he was bad... end of story...

MadDoc
13-05-2009, 01:42
Calibanites, not Calibanians...

And as far as Descent of Angels (and from the sound of it Fallen Angels)) is concerned there is not a distinct Calibanite/Terran schism as pushed by Gav in his stories (suggesting its his own baby and one that doesn't mesh with the events as GW want them told). Fallen Angels will hopefully shed more light on things, and from the sounds of it Mike Lee has given Gav's take on things the consideration its due and ignored it, which is fine by me. :angel:

ToXiK
13-05-2009, 10:20
ive just re read doa and personally think that it could still go either way authough luther did almost leave the lion to die he had a change of hart and went back to try nd fix it but the thoughts were there and we all know how chaos can get those thoughts and make them stronger. the lion on the other hand is and emo losing his temper when things dont go his way and punishing the two guys who saved his life and ship by cutting them out of the fighting, going by all marine books thats what they live for. I cant wait for the book its gonna answer some questions at least i hope so

reds8n
13-05-2009, 11:09
Calibanites, not Calibanians...

And as far as Descent of Angels (and from the sound of it Fallen Angels)) is concerned there is not a distinct Calibanite/Terran schism as pushed by Gav in his stories

Really ? That's not what I've been getting from the extract and the DA tale in the Tales of the Heresy collection.

The latter being by Mr. Thorpe and featuring Astelan to be fair.

Urath
13-05-2009, 16:23
Calibanites, not Calibanians...

It was a simple mistake :)

Hmm, well considering Thorpe was able to get Call of the Lion into "Tales of Heresy" I'd disagree with his view on the Dark Angels not exactly being shared.

The Caliban Lion
14-05-2009, 00:16
For those who is interested, a sample of Fallen Angels is available at Black Library;

http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

Ddraiglais
14-05-2009, 06:28
If it happens, it's most likely because 1) the writer couldn't be bothered to research the history, or 2) the writer knows the history, but thinks that blatantly ignoring established history makes for clever writing (when, in fact, it just makes him a hack. A TRULY clever writer can take something that's already known, keep the facts the same, and yet weave a truly interesting story with plenty of surprises).

Either way, if it happens, it won't be a good thing. Last thing we need are writers at Black Library who don't bother to research the background when writing novels, or who do only to blatantly disregard what's already been written. However, it hasn't happened yet. Which means that, as the facts stand now, Lion El'Jonson was not a traitor, whereas the Fallen are clearly bad guys, no matter what Astellan may say.


So because the winners of the battle recount that the defenders on Caliban were tainted by Chaos it's true? Official history means nothing. The only records of the battle are coming from one side. Of course they're the good guys. There are different ways of looking at this. DA players and die hard Imperial players just won't acknowledge that there could be flaws in Imperial history. How many peaceful alien civilizations were obliterated during the Great Crusade because they were hostile alien filth? I'm sure most aliens were hostile, but all of them couldn't have been. How about the DA and SW? Each chapter has different takes on the fights between their primarchs. Did the Lion sucker punch Russ? One side says so.

All I'm saying is that none of the information we have is concrete. They eye witness accounts are all from one side. The hostility from those defending the DA is amazing. I'm not saying the Lion was a traitor. I really haven't decided which of the possibilities (traitor/loyal, loyal/traitor, or loyal/loyal) is the truth. We don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I am saying that everyon should be a little more open to the different possibilities.

Eumerin
14-05-2009, 06:53
All I'm saying is that none of the information we have is concrete. They eye witness accounts are all from one side. The hostility from those defending the DA is amazing. I'm not saying the Lion was a traitor. I really haven't decided which of the possibilities (traitor/loyal, loyal/traitor, or loyal/loyal) is the truth. We don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I am saying that everyon should be a little more open to the different possibilities.

The point, though, is that there was an omniscient PoV in the past. As mentioned earlier, one of the codexes had a PoV that exceeded what the Imperium knows, and that's how we know that Luther was tainted. It's also the same information source that informed us that El'Johnson is still in what remains of Caliban - something that no one, except maybe Luther, currently knows. So unless you want to argue that El'Johnson's location is "PoV", then you also have to accept that Luther was tainted.

The other marines who joined him? No clue. My recollection (I no longer own that codex) is that their specific reasons for doing what they did were left open. Even Cypher was a big question mark, as I recall - all that was mentioned was that he seemed to be heading toward Terra and no one knew why (leaving room for an attempt at some form of personal redemption for him, if you were inclined to come up with one). But Luther was indisputeably tainted.

Ddraiglais
14-05-2009, 07:41
How many history books are written with facts that the people at the time had no way of knowing? Just because the codices state the Johnson is at the heart of the Rock, does not mean that everything else is a concrete fact.

ToXiK
14-05-2009, 09:36
in doa the watchers are guarding something in the Forrest we don't know if the lion has already been tainted by this (what i assume to be a relic of chaos) or Luther may find this when he returns to Caliban and get turned there are so many ways that they can go thats why the book should be good

Urath
14-05-2009, 18:59
What makes you think "Fallen Angels" will even be about the schism on Caliban?

massey
15-05-2009, 00:56
Unless you completely discount every single bit of information that is written in the Dark Angel codexes (from Angels of Death all the way up to the current one), what we know is this. There was a schism. The Dark Angels won. They found Luther, and placed him in a holding cell. Luther today says that the Lion will one day come back and forgive him.

Regardless of who was on which "side", that's a pretty fair assessment of what happened. Given that, it doesn't make sense for the Lion's side to be the ones who fell. Why would Luther seek forgiveness of someone who had fallen to Chaos, especially if he had stayed loyal?

The thing that REALLY doesn't make sense with the "the Lion's side was Chaos" theory, is what about what happens afterward? Okay, it's five minutes after the end of the battle. Caliban has been blown to pieces. The victorious Chaos-worshipping Dark Angels land on the planet. "Boy, we really showed those loyalists, didn't we?" "Hell yeah, blood for the blood god, bitches." Then, in their moment of victory, they decide to suddenly stop being Chaos? Because of a dead primarch? None of the other Chaos guys who lost their primarchs suddenly switched back. Just doesn't make sense.

MetalGecko23
15-05-2009, 06:55
Didn't Horus say he had something planned to stop Johnson in either Galaxy in Flames or Fulgrim?
Also I have read both Angels of Darkness (multiple times) and read Tales of Heresy and Astalen still comes off as being paranoid and psychoic. I ToH he blames his failure on his fellow commander saying he set him up. Also why doen't anyone ever remember who Astalen reacts to finding out that Luther is alive. Lets just say that finding out Luther lived was a soul crushing revelation for Astalen.

The Caliban Lion
15-05-2009, 07:32
What makes you think "Fallen Angels" will even be about the schism on Caliban?

What else would it be about? Apart from the story that is going to focus on the Lion of course.

MadDoc
18-05-2009, 05:35
Really ? That's not what I've been getting from the extract and the DA tale in the Tales of the Heresy collection.

Did you read the same extract that I did? :confused: The one that has both Terran and Calibanite DAs sent back to Caliban by the Lion, the one that doesn't even hint at a distinct Terran/Calibanite schism?


The latter being by Mr. Thorpe and featuring Astelan to be fair.

Which is the only reason it pushes Gav's version...


What makes you think "Fallen Angels" will even be about the schism on Caliban?

The blurb for it up on the Blacklibrary website, saying as much, could be giving people that impression, but why let alittle something like that confuse things... :angel:

09Project
18-05-2009, 08:20
While I wouldn't want the DA going totally 'traitor', I wouldn't mind them making some sort of bad move which ended up working against the Imperium causing a split and the schism.

I used to have a band of Fallen and the legend that is Cypher. And as much as DA players attest the loyalty of the Chapter, most players who played Cypher never had him down as 'chaos' either.

Cypher been out of the fluff for a long time, it would be good to get some more to the story line and while GW are at it.. Some uptodate rules wouldn't go a miss.

Havarel
18-05-2009, 13:44
Didn't Horus say he had something planned to stop Johnson in either Galaxy in Flames or Fulgrim?
Also I have read both Angels of Darkness (multiple times) and read Tales of Heresy and Astalen still comes off as being paranoid and psychoic. I ToH he blames his failure on his fellow commander saying he set him up.

Erm, the other commander did set him up, either intentionally or through incompetence. Astelan wanted to bring the world peacefully into the Imperium, or at least try the peaceful appraoch, the other commander simply wanted to subjugate them, and then it was his actions towards this that kicked off the conflict (the fact that he'd readied the forces to invade and were detected). It was clearly provocative.
But I agree he was paranoid and psychotic by Angels of Darkness; in a very insidious way. But again wouldn't you be distrustful when your fellow commander screws you over, and then (I'm speculating here) the Lion sides with him?


Also why doen't anyone ever remember who Astalen reacts to finding out that Luther is alive. Lets just say that finding out Luther lived was a soul crushing revelation for Astalen.

WHo would have expected Luther to survive a beating by the Lion, the destruction of Caliban and the huge warp event that flung the fallen through time and space? Not to mention that Luther, as not even a full Astartes, would still be alive after all this time? We could have guessed, as we have far more info and insight than Astelan ever did, he didn't even know that Caliban was destroyed!

Rockerfella
18-05-2009, 16:36
My bet is, he's not a traitor.

Yah, thats my bet.

TheDarkDaff
19-05-2009, 09:57
@ Havarel - Have a closer look at the book. Astelan basically tells Belath to sit in the corner and watch but then proceeds to treat him like a child instead of a fellow chapter commander. We know Astelan became a Sergeant 14 years before the story is set (that is a pretty rapid rise from brand new sergeant to chapter master in 14 years) so he isn't going to be very experienced (a large chunk was spent out in the fringe without any fighting). Astelan stuffs up the first contact by landing in a military training facility (which belath proceeds to bail him out of). Astelan then puts both chapter commanders at risk to save face while Belath takes precautions to make sure nothing else happens.

Astelan is not a great commander. He makes blunders at an amasing rate and blames them on others. He also directly ignores direct orders from his superior's (i.e. Lion El'Jonson) which is what ultimately got him sent back to Caliban on Garrison duty.

Astelan is basically like the Word Bearer's in that he will waste time on trying to "peacefully" bring a world into complience and only resort to conquest as a last resort. Belath is a firebrand. He is more than prepared to go in guns blazing then give them the option of joining (which is what Space Marines are for). He typifies the "ends justify the means" credo that is the Lion while Astelan is more worried about the proceedure than the end result.

@MadDoc - I normally agree with pretty much everything you say but i do disagree on the extract not showing a bit of a Terran/Calibanite schism. The extract outright says most of the Marines sent back to Caliban are Calibanites rather than Terrans, which does fly in the face of Gav T's schism theory pushed in Angels of Darkness and Call of the Lion

reds8n
19-05-2009, 10:07
.

@MadDoc - I normally agree with pretty much everything you say but i do disagree on the extract not showing a bit of a Terran/Calibanite schism. The extract outright says most of the Marines sent back to Caliban are Calibanites rather than Terrans, which does fly in the face of Gav T's schism theory pushed in Angels of Darkness and Call of the Lion


Phew! I thought I was going mad! :o

..would dig up a quote quote...but the BL site is down for repairs again at the moment.

MadDoc
19-05-2009, 10:43
@MadDoc - I normally agree with pretty much everything you say but i do disagree on the extract not showing a bit of a Terran/Calibanite schism. The extract outright says most of the Marines sent back to Caliban are Calibanites rather than Terrans, which does fly in the face of Gav T's schism theory pushed in Angels of Darkness and Call of the Lion

Sorry, I'm not sure that I can see the Terran/Calibanite schism.

Um, so could you tell me which part shows the schism again? The bit with the (albeit largely, but by no means solely, Calibanite) garrison force arriving and working as one blended whole, or the bit where it shows no distinct segregation/seperation of/between the Terrans and Calibanites?

Seriously, I can't see it. :confused:

TheDarkDaff
19-05-2009, 11:23
Sorry, I'm not sure that I can see the Terran/Calibanite schism.

Um, so could you tell me which part shows the schism again? The bit with the (albeit largely, but by no means solely, Calibanite) garrison force arriving and working as one blended whole, or the bit where it shows no distinct segregation/seperation of/between the Terrans and Calibanites?

Seriously, I can't see it. :confused:

I guess i just got it as inferred. Otherwise what is the point of blatantly saying that most of the Marines were Natives rather than Terrans. It certainly hints that there is going to be something made of the distiction.

reds8n
19-05-2009, 14:01
That was the way it had been on
their homeworld for generations and it had escaped no
one that virtually all of the Astartes being sent home
were from Caliban rather than Terra.

from page 8 of the extract. Seems to be clear that The Lion removed as many people that he felt he couldn't trust ( or knew things about him possibly) as he could.

massey
19-05-2009, 15:51
Obviously, something is going on with the Lion. We don't know what. He's dark, mysterious, and secretive. Even his own men in Descent of Angels don't know too much about him. He makes decisions and we don't know why. Why is he having his men from Caliban follow around the Terran marines? Why is he sending back Calibanites to their homeworld?

We really don't know.

Astelan thinks he knows. Of course, he has no more information than we do.

I haven't seen anything that makes me think the Lion is a traitor. The Lion may have perfectly valid reasons for what he does. Why send the other Dark Angel commander to watch Astelan? Perhaps Astelan's group was under-performing and needed some motivation. Or perhaps the Lion knew that the two commanders had dramatically different styles, and hoped they could learn from each other. The Emperor often grouped two Legions together (and the Lion and Russ were as different as could be, personality wise).

Traitor? Nah. You can be an ******* and still serve the Emperor just fine.

jirgaS
19-05-2009, 16:57
I think he was

Rockerfella
19-05-2009, 17:02
I think Johnsons going to come good in the end. When all is said and done, he had a decent heart, didn't he?

I mean, he could have killed Russ after the siege of terra but didn't. Does that say something of his character, or simply raise more questions?

I dunoo!

MetalGecko23
19-05-2009, 17:15
Really when you think about it he has to be good in the end. If he wasn't the Watchers in the Dark wouldn't have wisked away his mortally wounded body to heal him. Seeing as the Watchers are an ancient enemy of chaos, I assume they would help those that could help them.
New thought thought though what if the Lion fell for the Cabals theory and half the legion schismed from this point of view. And the Watchers protected him because he is on their side and is useful.

Warsurge
19-05-2009, 23:06
You may never know. Just some speculation here but there could be some chapters that are "undercover". Like one of the Loyalist legion are really traitor and legions like Alpha Legion are really loyal (They don't follow any Chaos gods and yet still say for the Emperor. Though this could mean that they are mocking the Imperium but could show a sign of loyalty.

Anyways back to the subject. Johnson could be traitor because somewhere in the fluff it says that the Fallen said that Johnson betrayed them and not the other way around.

Mannimarco
19-05-2009, 23:15
on the loyalty of the alpha legion:

it was agents of the alpha legion who led to the eventual destruction of the emperors swords midway through the 40th millenium, they infiltrated their homeworld, seeded the potential recruits with all kinds of chaosy sublimimal mewssages and triggers, 3 centuries later they turned up, activated their sleeper forces and wiped out the loyal emperors swords chapter. source Codex CSM

face it, alphas are bad guys who just say for the emperor to freak out their enemies, if your loyal and you see the alpha legion coming at you screaming for the emperor theres going to be confusion as to what to do next, thats when they get you

massey
20-05-2009, 02:50
Anyways back to the subject. Johnson could be traitor because somewhere in the fluff it says that the Fallen said that Johnson betrayed them and not the other way around.

Oh really? Where?

The Emperor
20-05-2009, 03:28
How many history books are written with facts that the people at the time had no way of knowing? Just because the codices state the Johnson is at the heart of the Rock, does not mean that everything else is a concrete fact.

Yes it does. Codex: Angels of Death isn't a history book. It's a game supplement written for the gamer in mind. It tells the player "these are the Dark Angels and here's what they're about and what their history is. Oh, and here's an interesting tidbit about the Lion". It's not, in any way, shape, or form, anything resembling a biased representation of events, as the text contained therein isn't written from the POV of any 40k character. It's the absolute definition of an unbiased source. Trying to dispute the validity of that, while holding up Astellan as being the accurate source, is ridiculous.


Anyways back to the subject. Johnson could be traitor because somewhere in the fluff it says that the Fallen said that Johnson betrayed them and not the other way around.

I've never heard of anything of the kind. At least not what you're implying. I assume you're implying is that the Fallen claim that El'Jonson turned to Chaos, but that's certainly not the case, and you won't find anything in the background to support that. Now, do they claim that the Lion betrayed them in the background? Maybe. But betraying them and betraying the Emperor/Imperium/Loyalists aren't the same thing.

And let's not forget, here, that the only time the Fallen show up is in a Chaos Codex. The 2nd edition Codex: Chaos repeats the story told in Codex: Angels of Death. That Luther turned to Chaos and turned many of the Fallen to Chaos as well. That he unleashed the power of Chaos on the Lion, striking a near-fatal blow. And it specifically states that a large number of the Fallen are full-fledged Chaos Marines. Are all of the Fallen Chaos Marines? No. But a vast majority are. Hard to claim that they're the Loyalists when they're busy making pacts with demons, worshiping the Chaos Gods, and Luther is sitting in his detention cell on the rock bloated with the power of Chaos. Even some of the Fallen realize that they were in the wrong. As Codex: Chaos states:


However, many others realize that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos Gods and unable to reconcile themselves with the Dark Angels they lead a solitary existence. Many become mercenaries or pirates, roaming the galaxy as masterless men. Others are willing to atone for their sins and in an attempt to do so have integrated themselves back into human societies taking on the role of any ordinary person.

So if the Fallen were the Loyalists, while the Lion was the traitor, why is it that some of the Fallen realize that their actions were wrong? If it was Luther and the Fallen who were the Loyalists, why is it that so many of them are Chaos Marines, today? Why is Luther himself infused with the power of Chaos? What sins do they feel they need to atone for if not that of them being the traitors?

The background is pretty well unequivocal. It was Luther and the Fallen who betrayed the Imperium and turned to Chaos, not the other way around.

Warsurge
20-05-2009, 05:34
I was refering to this particular peice of information.


A record of the apparent motivation for the actions of those Dark Angels who would become the Fallen exists: the confession of Astelan, once a Dark Angels Chapter Master. This testimony, extracted by Interrogator-Chaplain Boreas, contains the following claims: Astelan himself is supposed to have ordered the attack on the Lion's approaching fleet, with the approval of Luther, because the Dark Angels on Caliban believed that El'Jonson had fallen sway to the powers of Chaos. Astelan claimed that while the Lion had been lost in the woods of Caliban as a child, he had had a brush with Chaos and had never quite lost the taint of darkness from the incident. He pointed out the fact that while El'Jonson had moved through the Warp towards Terra to join the defence of the Imperial Palace, he had moved at what was believed to have been a deliberately slow pace; a pace slow enough to determine who the true winner of the conflict would be before committing his forces. In other words, Astelan believed that El'Jonson would not have hesitated to join Horus if it had seemed that he would have been the ultimate victor in the Heresy. Why else would the Lion, a man renowned for his strategic brilliance and speed of attack, have waited so long before leading troops to Terra? Astelan believed that by attacking his fleet, the Dark Angels stationed on Caliban were doing the work of the Emperor. Astelan further claimed that Luther never fell under the sway of Chaos but was driven by his duty to the Emperor, fearing the traitorous nature of El'Jonson. --- Lexicanum

I am just going by what the Fallen have said. Though it is wrong I would just like to point it out because after all we are talking about if Lion was a traitor.

MadDoc
20-05-2009, 05:59
Ah, good to see the Lexicanium living up to its reputation and providing a flawed, wildly biased and skewed version of the "facts"...

The Emperor
20-05-2009, 07:03
That's not in the actual background, then. That's a reporting of the novel Angels of Darkness on what's essentially the 40k wiki. As has been mentioned before, it's Angels of Darkness Vs. the vast body of existing Dark Angels/Fallen fluff that's existed for well over a decade. Angels of Darkness is the only thing that disputes everything else, and unlike all the other fluff, Angels of Darkness is told from the viewpoint of a biased source. The fact that that source (Astellan) is disputed by not only the background, but by the actual army lists (Fallen in Chaos Marine army lists), should be enough to put the lie to the notion that the Lion was the traitor.

Astellan claims that the Lion had been purposely slow in an attempt to arrive late to Terra. But Astellan wasn't even there, so how would he know? On the other hand, we have actual background material which tells us that the Lion wanted to get there as fast as possible, but he was travelling with Leman Russ, who wanted to stop at every single planet along the way if there was a fight to be had.

Astellan claims that the Fallen never turned to Chaos. And yet we have numerous background sources which state again and again that the Fallen had turned to Chaos. We've seen the same said not only in the various Dark Angels Codex's but in Codex: Chaos, too. And despite his claim that the Fallen didn't turn to Chaos, it's certainly odd that the Fallen have appeared at least twice in Chaos Marine lists, isn't it?

Astellan's story contradicts not only established fluff, but it also contradicts logic and basic common sense. The only explanation is that he's a damn dirty liar. Although it may be possible that Astellan believes half the crap he spouted. That doesn't make it any more true. After all, he'd concocted this whole insane story about the Lion purposely delaying his arrival on Earth, when we know that that wasn't the case. However, he didn't know the facts of the situation, so he made up his own story which cast the Lion as the bad guy and himself as the good guy. And we know damn well he's lying about the Fallen not turning to Chaos. Especially when we see some of them running around yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!". There may be a few small grains of truth in there, but for the most part? Bogus. Especially his belief that the Lion was a traitor. There's nothing that backs that up in the slightest. And there's certainly nothing that supports his notion that the Fallen were actually the Loyalists.

Jerrus
20-05-2009, 08:47
The fluff concerning the Dark Angels loyalty has been inconsistant throughout the years. IIRC in the "Armies of the Imperium" book for "Epic/Space Marine" it is stated that the Dark Angels switched sides several times during the Heresy, and came to blows with the Space Wolfs (the reason for thier long feud). Admittedly it is really old fluff (early 90's) and I can't seem to find my book to verify this.

While I don't believe that they are traitors, they do seem do have a very "Chapter first, Imperium second" mentality (more so than any other chapter).

Rockerfella
20-05-2009, 10:44
Its really odd, all this. Wasn't the Lion, originally a symbol of honour, loyalty, and hard assed pride?

Way back in the days of yore I mean? Now some see the lion as this sinister, scheming, rat faced double crosser who's a conniver and a weirdo.

Where did it all go so wrong?

Evilhomer
20-05-2009, 12:36
Its really odd, all this. Wasn't the Lion, originally a symbol of honour, loyalty, and hard assed pride?

Way back in the days of yore I mean? Now some see the lion as this sinister, scheming, rat faced double crosser who's a conniver and a weirdo.

Where did it all go so wrong?

I think he was always seen as the anti-Russ (not in a bad way). The older material plays heavily on this, and it makes a good comparison, e.g. Lion being slow to anger but unrelenting once his fury was aroused (vs Russ who was quick to anger and quick to forget), quiet and taciturn (vs Russ who was loud and boastful) etc. He's also noted as being an extremely competent tactician and a good warrior to boot.

I doubt the inhabitants of Caliban would've named him Lion El Jonson (Lion, son (?) of the forest) if he was really all that bad. If the new background is anything to go by, they should really have called him "Weasle El Burrow" ;)

Madgear Thundaklutch
20-05-2009, 14:50
Dark Angels = Scientologists....


Think about it. The inner circle are the only ones who know the chapter secrets. In Scientology, only the higher levels of OT(operating Thetan) know about the whole space opera thing. Caliban was destroyed because the emperor wanted to purge the Scientologists!

massey
20-05-2009, 19:56
That's not in the actual background, then. That's a reporting of the novel Angels of Darkness on what's essentially the 40k wiki. As has been mentioned before, it's Angels of Darkness Vs. the vast body of existing Dark Angels/Fallen fluff that's existed for well over a decade. Angels of Darkness is the only thing that disputes everything else, and unlike all the other fluff, Angels of Darkness is told from the viewpoint of a biased source. The fact that that source (Astellan) is disputed by not only the background, but by the actual army lists (Fallen in Chaos Marine army lists), should be enough to put the lie to the notion that the Lion was the traitor.

Astellan claims that the Lion had been purposely slow in an attempt to arrive late to Terra. But Astellan wasn't even there, so how would he know? On the other hand, we have actual background material which tells us that the Lion wanted to get there as fast as possible, but he was travelling with Leman Russ, who wanted to stop at every single planet along the way if there was a fight to be had.

Astellan claims that the Fallen never turned to Chaos. And yet we have numerous background sources which state again and again that the Fallen had turned to Chaos. We've seen the same said not only in the various Dark Angels Codex's but in Codex: Chaos, too. And despite his claim that the Fallen didn't turn to Chaos, it's certainly odd that the Fallen have appeared at least twice in Chaos Marine lists, isn't it?

Astellan's story contradicts not only established fluff, but it also contradicts logic and basic common sense. The only explanation is that he's a damn dirty liar. Although it may be possible that Astellan believes half the crap he spouted. That doesn't make it any more true. After all, he'd concocted this whole insane story about the Lion purposely delaying his arrival on Earth, when we know that that wasn't the case. However, he didn't know the facts of the situation, so he made up his own story which cast the Lion as the bad guy and himself as the good guy. And we know damn well he's lying about the Fallen not turning to Chaos. Especially when we see some of them running around yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!". There may be a few small grains of truth in there, but for the most part? Bogus. Especially his belief that the Lion was a traitor. There's nothing that backs that up in the slightest. And there's certainly nothing that supports his notion that the Fallen were actually the Loyalists.

There are even Chaos Fallen who appear in Angels of Darkness. Cypher and his "we might be good guys" Fallen show up, and then some "Blood for the Blood God" Fallen show up.

The closest I can tell, there were a lot of different factions in the Dark Angels back at the beginning. You've got the Chaos Fallen, the non-Chaos Fallen, and the Loyalists (for want of better terms). The Loyalists (current chapter) don't seem to differentiate between anyone not-Loyalist.

aad
20-05-2009, 20:27
its only logical , when a legion of 50.000 marines breaks in half, then from the leftover 25.000 some will go into the eye of terror, and becoming worshippers of chaos and there will be marines that take over a distant planet(like astelan)
and marauding renegade groups like cypher has.

if you where made for battle.
if you where outcasts.
and if you live forever(and as a spacemarine you do,without getting killed by battle of course)then you must do something to get ammo, food, transport, the universe is a bad place if you don,t have these neccesities.
you have to have these things to stay ahead of your hunters.

the lion is the traitor, luther was in a way ''weak'' ,the lion would never had won from the rightious cypher(zahariel).:D

The Emperor
20-05-2009, 23:12
the lion is the traitor, luther was in a way ''weak'' ,the lion would never had won from the rightious cypher(zahariel).:D

And you base this on... what, exactly? Because no one has yet pointed to any legitimate source of fluff that says that's the case. And if the Lion was the traitor, then how come not one of the Marines under his command were Chaos Marines, and the Chapters that spun out of his Legion aren't Chaos Marines, whereas most of the Fallen are Chaos Marines? If the Lion is the traitor, then why does the background say no such thing and specifically state that Luther and the Fallen had turned to Chaos, and Luther had been empowered by the Chaos Gods to be the equal to a Primarch?

You trying to tell me that the Fallen only turned to Chaos after the whole schism? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "We're gonna open fire on the Lion and the other Dark Angels because we're Loyalists and we're convinced that they've gone over to Chaos (despite having no evidence whatsoever attesting to that). But oh no, we lost the fight so we have no choice but to become Chaos Marines, while the ones who we claim turned to Chaos show no Chaos taint whatsoever".

As for your last comment, um, no. Cypher's in no way the match of a Primarch, any Primarch, and if he were to pick a fight with one he'd get beaten like a rented mule.


There are even Chaos Fallen who appear in Angels of Darkness. Cypher and his "we might be good guys" Fallen show up, and then some "Blood for the Blood God" Fallen show up.

Been a while since I read the novel, so I wasn't sure if that was the case, but thanks for pointing that out. Funny that. A couple Fallen show up yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" and we're supposed to believe that they were the Loyalists. Riiiggghhhttt...

DantesInferno
20-05-2009, 23:45
Yes it does. Codex: Angels of Death isn't a history book. It's a game supplement written for the gamer in mind. It tells the player "these are the Dark Angels and here's what they're about and what their history is. Oh, and here's an interesting tidbit about the Lion". It's not, in any way, shape, or form, anything resembling a biased representation of events, as the text contained therein isn't written from the POV of any 40k character. It's the absolute definition of an unbiased source. Trying to dispute the validity of that, while holding up Astellan as being the accurate source, is ridiculous.

Just because a Codex is not written from the perspective of any "in-universe" 40k character does not mean that it's a totally objective, unbiased account of events.

Consider the recent Codex: Space Marines, for instance. Or even the way that the Index Astartes articles for the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists both report on the Iron Cage event in a 3rd person narration, but manage to put completely different spins on the events.

This isn't to say that Astelan's version of events is definitely accurate, of course. But the mere fact that it conflicts with the Codex: Angels of Death version doesn't make it necessarily wrong, either.

Havarel
20-05-2009, 23:56
A couple Fallen show up yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" and we're supposed to believe that they were the Loyalists. Riiiggghhhttt...

They may have been once. I remember an IA article about renegade marines (pre-latest chaos codex) making a mnetion that not all renegade chapters turned to chaos; many of them only turned to Chaos to survive in a universe that had turned against them. Chaos Fallen could have been Chaos worshippers at the time of Caliban's destruction, or they could have fallen to Chaos afterwards. The vast majority of Fallen are portrayed and associated with Chaos, but we have seen examples where they aren't (Astelan for example, I know theres a couple of others but can't think off the top of my head).

And the viewpoints taken in the codexes are far from unbiased. Just look at the latest SM Ultralovefest (sorry, codex).

Mannimarco
21-05-2009, 00:01
yep the damned company of lord caustos i think they were called, im pretty sure their colour scheme was used for another army in the newest csm codex

Surgency
21-05-2009, 02:24
I prefer the idea of BOTH sides of the schism staying loyal, but both being betrayed by other sources. As has been mentioned, Horus masterfully manipulated at least 2 other legions (Emp. Children, Death Guard), betrayed and caused the destruction of a third legions home world (Prospero), catered to the desires of a fourth legion (World Eaters), and had a fifth legion intercept and engage with the Ultramarines, keeping them out of the fighting the entire time. Why is it so difficult to believe that Horus also sent similar messages to 2 different factions of the Dark Angels? It seems to me that everyone wants to play the 'hur hur they're really traitors' game, but why would El'Jonson support the Emperor if they were really traitors? Why would the still loyal other group turn to chaos if they were in the right? The kind of duplicity and double/triple crossing that is hinted at is really the hallmark of the Alpha Legion, not the Dark Angels. The DA were known for their secrecy, and coupled with Horus manipulation of both sides, would get them into trouble, creating a rift where both sides thought they were in the right. Unfortunately, when one side became the clear winner, it was to late to parlay, and realize that both sides had been tricked...

MetalGecko23
21-05-2009, 06:25
At Surgency:
Not only do I think this is how it went but I'm more that sure this is how the next Dark Angels HH book will play out.
Nobody will be bad guys and it will be a miss understanding, but Calibanites being who they are demonized the losers of the battle. It probably is the final secret of the Dark Angels to find out that no side was traitor and that the true mission is to gather those that are still loyal and punish those that have fallen in the mean time.

TheDarkDaff
21-05-2009, 08:37
the lion is the traitor, luther was in a way ''weak'' ,the lion would never had won from the rightious cypher(zahariel).:D

I think we can lay the Zaheriel/Cypher bit to rest. The extract has Zahariel and Luther meeting the young current Lord Cypher (complete with dual pistols) in that extract who then just disappears during the ceremony. It is also told to us the Lion chose this Lord Cypher personally so it would lend huge credance to the Cypher trying to redeem the fallen story arc and also making the DA follow the Odrer's traditions of fighting the good fight by making random appearances to drag them along.

The way i see Dark Angels (ever since Angels of Darkness) is as a Chapter that is willing to do anything to achieve their goals. They are not above sacrificing thousands of people if it will give them a better chance at winning. They have also been absolutely consumed in their need to redeem their honour to the point where it takes preceedence over their original purpose (defending humanity). It is best summed up by a quote from their Codex which basically boils down to "we have no honour until all the fallen have repented, nothing we do is worthy of being recorded until our honour is restored".

aad
21-05-2009, 22:10
And you base this on... what, exactly? Because no one has yet pointed to any legitimate source of fluff that says that's the case. And if the Lion was the traitor, then how come not one of the Marines under his command were Chaos Marines, and the Chapters that spun out of his Legion aren't Chaos Marines, whereas most of the Fallen are Chaos Marines? If the Lion is the traitor, then why does the background say no such thing and specifically state that Luther and the Fallen had turned to Chaos, and Luther had been empowered by the Chaos Gods to be the equal to a Primarch?

You trying to tell me that the Fallen only turned to Chaos after the whole schism? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "We're gonna open fire on the Lion and the other Dark Angels because we're Loyalists and we're convinced that they've gone over to Chaos (despite having no evidence whatsoever attesting to that). But oh no, we lost the fight so we have no choice but to become Chaos Marines, while the ones who we claim turned to Chaos show no Chaos taint whatsoever".

As for your last comment, um, no. Cypher's in no way the match of a Primarch, any Primarch, and if he were to pick a fight with one he'd get beaten like a rented mule.



Been a while since I read the novel, so I wasn't sure if that was the case, but thanks for pointing that out. Funny that. A couple Fallen show up yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" and we're supposed to believe that they were the Loyalists. Riiiggghhhttt...

first of all those are my thoughts and opinions about the whole thing.

the lion is in my opinion a traitor because astelan said so:angel: and i want to believe it when i read descent of angels, the lion gets some jabs of yealousy throughout the book,

1)zahariel killed a calibanite lion and was not even a spacemarine then, but only a boy(not a primarch).

2)zahariel saved the emperor from an bomb-explosion, the lion didn,t/couldn,t/wouldn,t.

3)zahariel was exceptionally psychic gifted, and was put by the emperors word in the librarian training school.

4)zahariel and another librarian safed the lion,s and other marines behind, from the monster in the end.

5)the lion send his most exceptionally most promising of all his new neophyte,s
home together with his most experienced warriors that where already on crusade without even discovering their primarch yet.

6)astelan explained in angels of darkness that the lion was waiting who won.

7)astelan explained in angels of darkness that the lion was willing to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of human lifes just to safe his own men...

8)astelan and the other chapter commander got into an argument on the last page of the story in the tales of heresy,the other commander(born on caliban) would tell his side of the story to the lion, and its put in such a way that the lion would surely believe the other commander instead of asking astelan his side of the story.(there was already a two way split in that legion
so who would be wrong then??)

explaining my thoughts about the above statements:

1)zahariel could do the same thing as the lion maybe not in strength but by pure willpower (the lion couldn,t stand that one bit).

2)zahariel saved the day not the primarch with all his psychic knowledge and strength, zahariel saved HIS father HIS emperor(the lion couldn,t stand that one bit).

3)the lion had no saying about his trainings path by words of the emperor...
(well that is the oldest thing that humans are going to be pissed about that someone is going over their heads.)

4)once again zahariel would safe the day and the lion was weak.(he knew that full well, so on the way back they where send back to caliban again.)

5)why would he send his most powerfull warriors back to caliban?? (because he is yealous and he is weak and laxity for it, ONE MOMENT OF LAXITY SPAWNS A LIFETIME OF HERESY:D).

6)well that,s in the story believe it or don,t believe it, but that sounds like a traitor to me.(it is written down and i believe it when i read the other story,s about how the lion is).

7)sacrificing humans to safe his own ''made for battle to safe mankind'' soldiers, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A TRAITOR TO ME.

8)sounds to me the lion would only have incapable yay-sayers next to him.
kinda like: in the land of the blind ,one eye is king.
not putting your best feet forward and lacking and slacking sending your finest warriors home is treacherous and spitting in your fathers(the emperors)
face. (sounds like a traitor to me.)

i,am sure there are two side,s on the story, my idea,s are based on: both party,s didn,t get along from the very beginning. and it only got worse and worse by the diversion the lion created.
i just happen to be on the fallen,s side. even when i have my own dark angels successor chapter.(in essention totally split from their former legion and former primarch. the dark angels could called them fallen, but their not)

MetalGecko23
22-05-2009, 02:31
aad
Not knocking you because I think english isn't your first language but that wasn't coherentt at all.
I don't get the Zahariel and Lion don't get along because I read the books and didn't see evidence of it.

On #5 in Tales of Heresy Astalen himself says that all of the Terran born Dark Angels got boosted in rank big time. Hell Astalen went from Sergeant to Chapter Master. So I don't see what you getting at.

#6 How the hell did Astalen know if the Lion was waiting to see who won? When Astalen fired on the Lion he had NO INFORMATION on anything outside of Caliban. Which to me screams of traitor. Only over the years did he come up with that idea so why is he right.

#7 This is just opinion. The Emperor would have done the same thing. I mean the guy kills anyone who opposes him, yells at Lorgar for not crushing enough worlds and is habitually refered to as blood thristy by anyone how has touched his mind. Yah this guy gives a crap if the Lion sacks a few people to win a war. Problem is Astalen thinks so highly of himself that his oppinion means more than the Lion's and that only he knows the Emperor and that the Emperor looks upon his decisions more than that upstart El'Johnson.

#8 Astalen also completely screwed up and then blamed his failure on the other commander WITHOUT any proof. Kind of like all of Astalen's oppinions.

The Emperor
22-05-2009, 02:48
No idea who this Zahariel guy is. From some book I haven't read, yet, I guess. Nothing you said indicates anything about the Lion being a traitor, though. Just sounds like you waxing on about how awesome this Zahariel guy is.


6)astelan explained in angels of darkness that the lion was waiting who won.

As MetalGecko points out, there's no way that Astellan would know this. He was on Caliban, remember? He had no clue what the Lion was up to, much less what his motivations for his actions were. That's something he made up in the centuries since to justify his betrayal. On the other hand, we have fluff which states that the Lion wasn't waiting to see who won. He was hauling ass to Terra, and the only reason he got there late was because Leman Russ was slowing him down.

So explain how Astellan could've possibly known what the Lion was doing when he wasn't there. If you can't then clearly Astellan was a liar.


7)astelan explained in angels of darkness that the lion was willing to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of human lifes just to safe his own men...

WELCOME TO WARHAMMER 40,000! ROTFLMAO! And you use this as evidence that he's a traitor? Umm, have you seen the other Loyalist Legions, and the things they're willing to do? In the grim darkness of the far future, the Space Marines aren't cuddly, wuvvable buddies. They're coldhearted killers. Just look at the Battle for Armageddon. A Marines Malevolent Captain shelled a refuge camp because there were some Orks running around in there.


#8 Astalen also completely screwed up and then blamed his failure on the other commander WITHOUT any proof. Kind of like all of Astalen's oppinions.

Interesting. So where was this story? I wouldn't mind hearing more stories showing just how much of a damn dirty liar Astellan is.

MetalGecko23
22-05-2009, 03:09
To The Emperor.....hehe I like that.
Astalen has a story in the book Tales of Heresy where he shows how incompetent and paranoid he is. The story is called Call of the Lion by Gav Thorpe. Check it out you will like it.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-05-2009, 08:31
face it, alphas are bad guys who just say for the emperor to freak out their enemies, if your loyal and you see the alpha legion coming at you screaming for the emperor theres going to be confusion as to what to do next, thats when they get you

True, but the Alpha Legion operates as cells. There's a theory that some cells still fight with the original purpose (for the Emperor) while others have fallen to Chaos or just gave up and started crusading.


I prefer the idea of BOTH sides of the schism staying loyal, but both being betrayed by other sources. As has been mentioned, Horus masterfully manipulated at least 2 other legions (Emp. Children, Death Guard), betrayed and caused the destruction of a third legions home world (Prospero), catered to the desires of a fourth legion (World Eaters), and had a fifth legion intercept and engage with the Ultramarines, keeping them out of the fighting the entire time. Why is it so difficult to believe that Horus also sent similar messages to 2 different factions of the Dark Angels? It seems to me that everyone wants to play the 'hur hur they're really traitors' game, but why would El'Jonson support the Emperor if they were really traitors? Why would the still loyal other group turn to chaos if they were in the right? The kind of duplicity and double/triple crossing that is hinted at is really the hallmark of the Alpha Legion, not the Dark Angels. The DA were known for their secrecy, and coupled with Horus manipulation of both sides, would get them into trouble, creating a rift where both sides thought they were in the right. Unfortunately, when one side became the clear winner, it was to late to parlay, and realize that both sides had been tricked...

I like this theory.

TheLionReturns
22-05-2009, 11:56
I don't really buy the jealousy thing. The Lion seems lonely to me, isolated by his superiority. He seemed to bond in his own way with Zahariel over the whole Calibanite Lion thing more than anything, finally finding someone who can match his deeds in this one instance. He seemed to crave someone he could interact with as an equal even if only in some circumstances, rather than feel threatened by such a person.

I have two theories of Zahariel being sent back to Caliban. Firstly IIRC he didn't inform the Lion of Luthors near betrayal. If the Lion got wind of this he may have seen Zahariel as tainted by his inaction. Alternatively the Lion may have recognised that Zahariel had bought Luthor back from the brink of heresy before and sent him to Caliban to act as an advisor to Luthor hoping to prevent any further corruption. Personally I favour the latter.

Being the Lion he probably didn't communicate these sentiments well and Zahariel misunderstood the Lions intentions and began to resent the him leading to his own corruption. Of course alternatively Zahariel may continue as a force against the corruption of Luthor.

I think there will be a great deal of sympathy for the Caliban Dark Angels. Luthor will be corrupted, to keep in line with the established fluff, but the majority of the marines will not. However, Luthor will prey on their doubts about being sent home to convince them that it is the Lion who is the traitor. I think it will be written as a tragedy born out of misunderstanding and poor communication, a situation exploited by a corrupted Luthor.

I do also wonder whether the Lion will come close to falling. Most Primarchs seem to have been tested in some way. I think it would be good if the Lion was duped into doing something that helped Horus but realising what had happened redeemed himself heroically.

Redemption is a strong theme for the Dark Angels and I think having the Lion redeem himself would be fitting. Perhaps on Caliban we may see some marines realising the error in following Luthor and trying to fight back against him attempting their own redemption. They may play a crucial role in the Lions victory over Luthor but still be branded heretics by association and pursued as Fallen.

TheDarkDaff
22-05-2009, 15:16
i just have an odd idea on Zahariel. Luther admits to Zahariel that he lied to those marines sent to Caliban by telling them they were going to return to the great crusade. You can already see him inflating the hopes of those Marines well beyond what they should be so they can be shattered when their hope proves to be in vain. It would also tie in quite nicely if the Watchers in the Dark are made to regret their decision to spare the warp tainted Zahariel (remember in DoA they remark he is tainted). Somehow his taint grows until he becomes that which the Watchers feared with a big final confrontation between Z and his cousin Nemiel (to mirror Luther and the Lions conflict).

DapperAnarchist
22-05-2009, 15:56
About Lutherian Marines who turn back to the Lion - perhaps some become the first Interrogators? Like the theory that Grey Knights started as Loyalists from the Traitor Legions...

Aranel
22-05-2009, 21:17
Personally, i think that people are defining sides a little too much. i wouldn't say Astelan is incompetant, I thought the other Chapter master undermined him at every oppotunity. I really admired Astelan's sense of morality in CotL and the way this was still present in AoD despite being somewhat warped. i can't see Zarahiel falling either. Orginally i though he would end up as Cypher, but considering the new one has two pistols at his hips in the extract of FA i'm much more skepical. in DoA, Luther already loked to have taken the first steps towards his corruption so i believe his status a traitor will be beyond doubt. However, Marines such as Zarahiel, Astelan, Nemiel and that Ravenwing lad are certainly not. As for the Lion, very shady and ruthless but I don't think he will be proved a traitor. Could see him having a little wobble though!

aad
22-05-2009, 22:36
@metalgecko:
indeed english is not my first language. dutch is... i know most of the words but not exactly where to put them in long explaining threads. and i,am a big fan of talking about this kind of fluff i can,t help myself ,sorry about that:)

to all others: i still think the lion is a traitor, maybe there is no proof in your eyes for it, but i believe it.
and the things i have read about all of this, is proof for me that the lion cannot be trusted.

but then again maybe the thoughts i have about it are not how it really happened.

maybe the new dark angels book will shed some light on it.;)

MetalGecko23
23-05-2009, 06:56
@metalgecko:
indeed english is not my first language. dutch is... i know most of the words but not exactly where to put them in long explaining threads. and i,am a big fan of talking about this kind of fluff i can,t help myself ,sorry about that

By all means do not apologize, I only speak one language (ok I know some spanish) and you doing fine.

Funny thing is though I think this thread is all the proof we need to figure out what really happened (and in my mind we will find out is the real story).
This thread has gone something like:
"It's your fault, you traitor"
"Hell no, it's you who are the traitor"
And then we fight because we think the other is the bad guy.

The next book will prove that paranoia was what caused the destruction of Caliban and the schism of the Dark Angels, not chaos.

aad
23-05-2009, 21:07
that could very well be the case.;)

anyways its not a boring legion with such contradiction in fluff.:D

spacewolf_sven
23-05-2009, 23:59
Much as space wolf fans might like I don't think the lion is a traitor at all

wouldn't mind being proved wrong

BaronIveagh
24-05-2009, 15:49
I always like the idea that nobody is traitor: with luthor and the garrison believing lion is the traitor, and lion believing luthor is the traitor. The entire thing would be a very gothic, 4TK moment (yes, i went a step further and made it 4TK pronounced: four tee kay, sorry)

That was actually sort of what I took away from the whole thing too. That paranoia and secrecy tore the Dark Angels apart more than the Ruinous Powers.

Goruax
24-05-2009, 21:47
I think the fact that the Lion was almost having to drag Russ to Terra is kind of proof that his intentions are pure, for the most part.

Sure, you could say that he just said he was rushing as fast as possible, but he comes to blows with Russ over it afterwards (IIRC)
That's not something one would do, unless they're a huge risk taker - Russ might be outraged at being struck, but would also be shamed that it was his fault the Emperor fell. Which I think is stated somewhere, that Russ is ashamed and that Lion knocks him for ten.[/nonsensicalramblings]

Fallen DA
22-06-2009, 14:17
The way I see it the lion maybe tainted in some way, possibily due to the years spent in the jungles of Caliban on his own? Growing up never trusting anyone but himself? He certainly didn't seem to like the DA Legions from Earth? And Luthur may well have turned to the dark Side? BUT for all those people with their own idea's for the Fallen, Can have to some extent their cake and eat it..... The DA's do appear to be their own worst enemy at any rate?????

Even if Luthur did turn. and Loyalist did fight Traitors before the Lion returned, you have the possibility of Caliban stationed Marines escaping the battle to take word to Earth, or getting lost in the Warp trying to give the Lion the heads up? There could have been Loyalist Companies who Luthur new he couldnt turn being sent to patrol far off area's of space. even if commanders weren't happy? Orders are orders. Out post on other planets and their contingent of Marines have to be included somewhere? Pockets of resistance may well have remained on Caliban when the planet was destroyed, so all remaining Loyalist DA who got lost or dragged into the warp are now tainted with the same brush, Fallen, angry confused, and just needing a little TLC.

I've been a DA fan since the very first RT Rule Book came out. (Yes I'm old) And have a Pre-Heresy DA Army that follows the been sent out on patrol trick and get lost in the warp on the way back to Caliban, Sooo though techniqually Fallen, and Angry etc. they aren't Chaos. Though I do have a couple of suttle models to allow me to swing both ways! I like the flexibility. I like the idea of the Fallen being Anti-Establishment.....

MadDoc
22-06-2009, 14:36
Unfortunately Fallen DA the new book, Horus Heresy: Fallen Angels, clears up a number of things...

The Lion is shown to be Loyal, if somewhat tactless, and perhaps too trusting of some of his brothers... Perturabo... and Luther is shown to have become corrupted by Chaos, in spite of what might seem high ideals in his initial decision to betray the Emperor, the Imperium and the Lion.

So certain people will now have to accept that their theories are in fact wrong, and that those of us who've been pointing out the facts of the established background, for quite some time now, are in fact right.

Rockerfella
22-06-2009, 15:29
So certain people will now have to accept that their theories are in fact wrong, and that those of us who've been pointing out the facts of the established background, for quite some time now, are in fact right.

Yup!

And, once again, in light of these events, i'll just say this: turns out I was right. Its good to be a winner. *sits back and sips his tea*

Yeah. feels good. Feels Daaaaaaaamn good. ;)

Son of the Lion
22-06-2009, 17:17
So certain people will now have to accept that their theories are in fact wrong, and that those of us who've been pointing out the facts of the established background, for quite some time now, are in fact right.

C'mon Mad Doc, you've been around here more than long enough to know that's not true. Remember that ill-advised comment from a senior GW staffer about fluff books being written with historical bias? Bingo. Doesn't agree with my viewpoint? S'propaganda. :p

Seriously, I'm glad they dropped the reversed loyalties thing - The original story was always the best (though I have to say that I was intrigued by the suggestion earlier in the thread that both were loyal, but manipulated by Horus, that had epic tragedy all over it).

Now if only they'd get rid of all that nonsense about the Ultramarines riding in to save the day at the siege of Terra, instead of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Seriously, who'd you be more scared of - Gulliman and his rule quoting drill sergeants, or a frothing viking horde and a legion of bastard sword-wielding warrior monks? :wtf:

Satan
26-06-2009, 08:52
Is anyone else bothered by the staement on page 408 as Zahariel is contemplating his actions that the intention of the ritual was to send the beast back from whence it came?

Does this imply that the terran sorcerers were actually, in some twisted way, trying to save Caliban?

genestealer_baldric
26-06-2009, 09:22
as To the questsion asked i will give you odds of 1:1.000001

Urath
26-06-2009, 19:48
I know this isn't a spoiler thread, but is Belath from "Call of the Lion" in "Fallen Angels"?

DantesInferno
27-06-2009, 09:52
Unfortunately Fallen DA the new book, Horus Heresy: Fallen Angels, clears up a number of things...

The Lion is shown to be Loyal, if somewhat tactless, and perhaps too trusting of some of his brothers... Perturabo... and Luther is shown to have become corrupted by Chaos, in spite of what might seem high ideals in his initial decision to betray the Emperor, the Imperium and the Lion.

So certain people will now have to accept that their theories are in fact wrong, and that those of us who've been pointing out the facts of the established background, for quite some time now, are in fact right.


Yup!

And, once again, in light of these events, i'll just say this: turns out I was right. Its good to be a winner. *sits back and sips his tea*

Yeah. feels good. Feels Daaaaaaaamn good. ;)


So i can say: I told you so. :P


I also told them so. :P


I wasn't going to, but I'm gonna chime in here also ;)


Of course, Surgency. Feel free to throw in a good round of "neener, neener, neener" if you so desire. It's certainly well deserved. :)

I haven't read Fallen Angels, but from the spoilers posted on these forums, my impression was that it was still too early to determine exactly what is going to happen at the end of the Heresy. From what I gather, Fallen Angels ends before the Dropsite Massacres, with the Lion staying loyal because he thinks Horus' rebellion will be put down and he wants to be the next Warmaster.

Isn't there still room for the Lion to waiver in his loyalty later on in the Heresy, when it becomes apparent that Horus has much more support than the Lion thought, and that the Lion's best way of realising his ambitions might be to avoid picking a side later on in the Heresy?

Urath
27-06-2009, 11:29
That is a very good point Mr.Bond, but we shall wait and see. With any luck, we'll be suprised.

only joking...
27-06-2009, 12:09
Puh, I still think he is piece of traitorous scum :)

Urath
27-06-2009, 12:12
Bah, your avatar is blue and therefore you MUST be an Ultra/Nova/Marine/Successor player, so of course you'd say that.

:p

massey
27-06-2009, 16:51
There's opportunity for a lot of things, but what we have seen seems to go directly against what Astelan said.

only joking...
27-06-2009, 18:09
Bah, your avatar is blue and therefore you MUST be an Ultra/Nova/Marine/Successor player, so of course you'd say that.

:p

Salamanders actually :D

Good try though ;)

jesusjohn
29-06-2009, 00:17
Traitor, no. Arrogant, full of himself, treats people like dirt, naive and a bit dim yes. The dark angels seem to be a tragic run of errors and decisions that lead them down a path to self destuction. No real villans, they seem to turn each other into the enemies through their own lack of communication and paranoia.

massey
29-06-2009, 17:03
I always saw the whole Dark Angels schism as a mirror of the Emperor/Horus one. El'Jonson and the Emperor both seem to have that "can't relate to normal people to save their life" sort of thing going. I've read part of Fallen Angels now, and my take is that the Lion knew that Caliban was tainted by the warp, so he sent some of his most trusted men back to take care of it, while he went off galavanting across the galaxy. "Oh yeah, Luther is great. He'll take care of everything..."

Lion El'Jonson isn't a traitor. But he is the guy who forgets his wife's birthday every year and then wonders why he comes home one day and she's run off with the pool boy.

Angel of the Black Parade
29-06-2009, 17:29
Are Black Library books even "official" fluff?

Cool if he is though.

x-esiv-4c
29-06-2009, 17:58
There is no "official" fluff and at the same time, everything is "official"

Lion of Nemea
29-06-2009, 17:58
I always liked to think of El'Jonson as having some struck some sort of deal with Horus. That was the reason why he was in such a hurry to get to Terra - to help the traitors and not the loyalists. The Lion keeps his plans to betray the Emperor close to his chest (as he seems to do with everything), though Luthor decides to spread the word to the Dark Angels left on Caliban. Thanks to Russ's delays, however, the Lion arrives to find the traitors routed and Horus dead. Seeing this, he decides it's best to say he was loyal all along.

El'Johnson then returns to Caliban where Luthor, the only other person party to his betrayal, is waiting. Whether Luthor fires first because he sees the Lion as a coward or whether the Lion fires first to remove any trace of his betrayal is really beside the point.

Isn't that more interesting than, "Luthor was possessed by Chaos and so the Lion must be good."?

massey
29-06-2009, 19:09
I always liked to think of El'Jonson as having some struck some sort of deal with Horus. That was the reason why he was in such a hurry to get to Terra - to help the traitors and not the loyalists. The Lion keeps his plans to betray the Emperor close to his chest (as he seems to do with everything), though Luthor decides to spread the word to the Dark Angels left on Caliban. Thanks to Russ's delays, however, the Lion arrives to find the traitors routed and Horus dead. Seeing this, he decides it's best to say he was loyal all along.

El'Johnson then returns to Caliban where Luthor, the only other person party to his betrayal, is waiting. Whether Luthor fires first because he sees the Lion as a coward or whether the Lion fires first to remove any trace of his betrayal is really beside the point.

Isn't that more interesting than, "Luthor was possessed by Chaos and so the Lion must be good."?

Not really. It's also got some problems with it.

First, I don't see where you would get that. I understand that everybody has their own take on the background, eevn if it's not supported (I always liked the idea that the birth of Slaanesh is a bunch of hogwash, the Eye of Terror was formed because the Eldar had some sort of generator that was stirring up the warp so that humans couldn't travel the stars, then the thing overloaded and went ka-plewey. There's absolutely zero evidence for this "theory" though).

Why would Luther fire on the Lion? Remember that there really wasn't any contact with Caliban during the heresy. The Lion could have been showing up as the new Emperor. "Hey, Luther, the plan was great, we won." Then he gets shot.

It also doesn't explain why they'd bother travelling with the Space Wolves. It doesn't do Horus any good to show up with your legion ready to fight, only to bring Leman "Scrappy Doo" Russ along with you. Better to tell the Space Wolves "hey, go ahead and save this world, we'll go to Earth first and see what we can do. We'll meet you later," and then show up and help Horus.

I don't have a problem with people thinking the Lion is secretly a villain. But if you're going with that, don't make him an incompetent villain. He shouldn't go from being one of the Emperor's finest generals to being a He-Man villain.

Lion of Nemea
29-06-2009, 20:52
Not really. It's also got some problems with it.

First, I don't see where you would get that. I understand that everybody has their own take on the background, eevn if it's not supported (I always liked the idea that the birth of Slaanesh is a bunch of hogwash, the Eye of Terror was formed because the Eldar had some sort of generator that was stirring up the warp so that humans couldn't travel the stars, then the thing overloaded and went ka-plewey. There's absolutely zero evidence for this "theory" though).

Why would Luther fire on the Lion? Remember that there really wasn't any contact with Caliban during the heresy. The Lion could have been showing up as the new Emperor. "Hey, Luther, the plan was great, we won." Then he gets shot.

It also doesn't explain why they'd bother travelling with the Space Wolves. It doesn't do Horus any good to show up with your legion ready to fight, only to bring Leman "Scrappy Doo" Russ along with you. Better to tell the Space Wolves "hey, go ahead and save this world, we'll go to Earth first and see what we can do. We'll meet you later," and then show up and help Horus.

I don't have a problem with people thinking the Lion is secretly a villain. But if you're going with that, don't make him an incompetent villain. He shouldn't go from being one of the Emperor's finest generals to being a He-Man villain.

Yeah, it's basically my version of your "Warp Stirrer" - a bit of fluff that is unsupported but that I find appealing.

As for Luthor firing on the returned Dark Angels: A Warp storm wouldn't necessarily prevent more unholy means of communication from getting back to Luthor and his pals - there were daemons involved in the Heresy, after all.

If El'Johnson was so concerned about getting to Terra for loyal reasons and so upset with Dorn for delaying, why didn't he leave the wolves behind and head for Terra, anyway? I seriously doubt the Wolves would have admitted to needing the Dark Angels' help in saving all those planets on the way. For all we know, El'Johnson was planning Drop-Site Massacre II as his troops landed behind the Space Wolves on Terra. The element of surprise can make a world of difference and having the Space Wolves come in after you've shown your true colours would probably be a bit of a problem for the Dark Angels.

EDIT: The Lion could have attacked the Wolves on the way there, but maybe he really was waiting to ensure he was on the winning side.

Urath
29-06-2009, 21:04
I could tell you all if the Lion is a traitor and why Luther "betrays" the Dark Angels and the Imperium, but I won't. ;)

Having finished Fallen Angels.

massey
30-06-2009, 04:36
Just finished it. Jonson comes across as a bit of an *******, and secretive as all hell, but he really seems to hate traitors. He's kind of an "ends justify the means" kind of guy, but I don't see any way to read the ending as him being a traitor unless you just really REALLY reach. Like one of those Tzeentch sorceror plots where the villain lay dying on the battlefield, his army shattered, he sees the foot of an Imperator Titan coming down to crush him, and he smiles one last time before whispering "Exactly as planned..." Squish.

Luther seems very well intentioned, and you can see why someone who was so heroic would turn traitor. He's the classic example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Unlike Fulgrim, which seemed to be pretty much full of **********, I actually have sympathy for the people here.

Logarithm Udgaur
30-06-2009, 07:52
I don't have a problem with people thinking the Lion is secretly a villain. But if you're going with that, don't make him an incompetent villain. He shouldn't go from being one of the Emperor's finest generals to being a He-Man villain.
Precisely, because Lion O should be the one exception to the rule that all the traitor primarchs are incompetent emo kids.

eldaran
30-06-2009, 08:26
I think that both the Lion and Luther were traitors - the Lion was a traitor to Caliban (for the 'right' reasons, as far as the Imperium is concerned) and Luther was a traitor to the Imperium. However, the story of Fallen Angels makes me feel more sympathy towards Luther, and the story suggests to me that Luther was not responsible for him falling to Chaos, it was Cypher (who persuaded him) which means that, ironically, it was the Lion who indirectly caused his friend to fall...

TheDarkDaff
30-06-2009, 09:49
Haven't read the book yet but the more spoilers i see about Cypher being responsible for Luther's fall the more it seems that Cypher really embodies "the ends justify the means" view more than the Lion. Here you have a guy whose entire life is based on understanding Chaos and using it against itself. What better way to get People away from chaos tainted Caliban than blow it up. Also turned the Loyal Dark Angels into pretty much zealots that he can set off just by his mere presence (and it always makes the Imperium stronger if the Black Crusade fluff still holds). He even went so far as to sacrifice his Primarch to achieve his goals.

Urath
30-06-2009, 11:12
Luther seems to think that the Lion knew of Caliban's taint, archived all of the Lupus Knight's lore on Chaos and the deep corruption of Caliban, hid miles beneath the Rock and left. Caliban was turned into a dystopian nightmare with unfeeling Imperial rulers who happily condemn the Calibanites to darkness, lacking food or water in some cases. The Lion and the Dark Angels were halfway across the galaxy, while they were stuck on Caliban. Calibanites were being punished, so they rebelled. Luther and the Legion took to fighting this cause but, the more they discovered about Caliban's taint AND the sorceror's rekinddling the taint, the more they came to understand that the Imperium was a bad thing.

Terran sorceror's conjuring extremely ancient and powerful deamons into being and, in once case, the deamon responsible for Caliban's innate corruption. Terrans did this. Terrans plundered the planet. Terrans; uncaring rulers, dystopian beaurocrats. The Imperium abhors taint, but it was the Imperium's fault that Caliban's taint progressed, and would happily destroy Caliban even though they indirectly unleashed the taint upon civillian habs.

While the noble knights had been abolished or absorbed into the Dark Angels, Luther some other knights and the Calibanite Angels remembered their oaths to protect the people of Caliban. Hell, even Astelan's loyalties lie with Luthor. Though I found that quite stupid as no real reason is given, considering he's a Terran.

So, the warriors on Caliban remembered their oaths to the people and indirectly became corrupted sometime after, but the rot began when Luthor used sorcery to bind a deamon.

I know that wasn't about Johnson, but it's been cleared up whether the fallen were true traitors or chaos worshippers etc.

Some parts of Fallen Angels were quite annoying, tbh. But overall it was good.

Satan
30-06-2009, 11:20
Err... Didn't anyone read my post a couple of pages back?

Is anyone else bothered by the staement on page 408 as Zahariel is contemplating his actions that the intention of the ritual was to send the beast back from whence it came?

Does this imply that the terran sorcerers were actually, in some twisted way, trying to save Caliban?

Urath
30-06-2009, 11:29
It's weird. Because they summoned the worms at the manufactoring plant and they caused shifting hordes of undead too. Was this purely to hold the Dark Angels and Jaegers at bay, while they completed the ritual?

I don't know. It seems weird to me that the worms weren't attacking the sorceror's even though said sorcerors were trying to banish the beast.

Just a quick question:

did the "Ouroboros" enter Zahariel?

Satan
30-06-2009, 11:42
My best guess is that they were somehow trying to "free" the beast, as if though it had been bound to Caliban, by trying to return it to the warp or wherever. Could Zahariel in fact have been implying Lion 'el Johnson in this sentence?

I think we need another book to clear this up all proper...

GuyLeDouche
30-06-2009, 14:08
Err... Didn't anyone read my post a couple of pages back?

Is anyone else bothered by the staement on page 408 as Zahariel is contemplating his actions that the intention of the ritual was to send the beast back from whence it came?

Does this imply that the terran sorcerers were actually, in some twisted way, trying to save Caliban?

This bothered me too. In fact, I created a thread about this topic (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207271), but it seems to have slipped below the radar. It seems to me that if Terra knew about Caliban's taint, they would have immediately destroyed the planet. This isn't really related to El'Jonson being a traitor (or not), so perhaps this discussion should continue in the other thread?

massey
30-06-2009, 16:11
Hell, even Astelan's loyalties lie with Luthor. Though I found that quite stupid as no real reason is given, considering he's a Terran.


Yeah, that part was dumb. Astelan talks about killing those worms when he was a kid, and I'm thinking "wait a minute, he's from Earth".

[QUOTE=Urath;3722482]It's weird. Because they summoned the worms at the manufactoring plant and they caused shifting hordes of undead too. Was this purely to hold the Dark Angels and Jaegers at bay, while they completed the ritual?

I don't know. It seems weird to me that the worms weren't attacking the sorceror's even though said sorcerors were trying to banish the beast.

Just a quick question:

did the "Ouroboros" enter Zahariel?

I don't know. They still haven't answered how those sorcerors knew anything. Apparently they were a roving band of sorcerors who just sort of showed up. I'm thinking the zombies and the worms were all supposed to cause the casualties needed to complete the ritual.

I don't think so. I don't think he "possessed" him, if that's what you mean. I do think they had a mind link for a while. I think that ending part was to show that Zahariel no longer trusted Luther. He realized that his boss had gone round the bend, and so he lied to him because he knew Luther was planning on trying to bind that thing.

Urath
30-06-2009, 19:23
I was just puzzled by the sentence "it had never left him".

@Satan: At first, I thought he meant Luther or Johnson too. Perhaps the sorcerors didn't really understand what they were doing or the consequences of their actions.

@GuyLeDouche: I agree, I'll start up another thread.