PDA

View Full Version : Rumors about after Frodo goes to grey heaven



IllidanStormrage
06-05-2009, 18:42
people have told me years later after Sams wife dies Sam too eventually goes to Grey heaven. gimili, and legolas go there too later on. is this true?

Magos Saphentos
06-05-2009, 19:18
yes
tis in the appendixes time line in ROTK

Condottiere
06-05-2009, 19:20
Sam probably went to the Grey Havens; Legolas and Gimli may have had to build their own ship, since the Grey Havens might have been abandoned by that time.

Phoenix Blaze
06-05-2009, 19:43
Wait, WHAT!?

Are they just letting anyone into Valinor these days? Or do they means the shores by the Grey Havens?

If Valinor, then once against, WHAT? Sam might deserve entry, but certainly not Gimli.

FuzzyOrb
06-05-2009, 20:26
I mean,

You can't simply walk into valinor!
:D

Condottiere
06-05-2009, 20:26
Gimli received a dispensation; Galadriel was his advocate, supposedly.

Eumerin
07-05-2009, 02:11
As noted, Gimli got in because of Galadriel (his request for three of her hairs while they're in Lothlorien fits with traditional medieval "love from afar", as do his conversations with Eomer regarding Galadriel). The fact that he was very good friends with Legolas didn't hurt either.

Sam went because he was a Ringbearer, however so briefly (while Frodo was in the tower at Cirith Ungol).

Suicide Messiah
07-05-2009, 06:35
Was Sam an unusually long lived Hobbit? Or did he get to the grey havens before he kicked the bucket? Am i right in thinking you cant die in the grey havens?

So many questions...

Condottiere
07-05-2009, 07:15
The Gray Havens being a part of the mortal world doesn't confer immortality. Sam probably did live a comparably long time in the Shire.

VeriNasti
07-05-2009, 09:09
Says in appendix of ROTK - Legolas,Gimli and Sam all eventaully go there. Merry, Pippen and Arwen die though

brightblade
07-05-2009, 10:38
Sam and Gimli were allowed to go to Valinor because of their membership of the Fellowship. Gimli also had his friendship with Legolas helping him past Valinorian immigration controls (he wasn't carrying any foodstuffs or other contraband).

Sam was a ring bearer so that got him fast tracked.

Phoenix Blaze
07-05-2009, 10:54
First of all, I think we need to clarify things. The Grey Havens are the harbours in Middle Earth from where the boats to Valinor leave. Valinor, in Aman is the holy land, the undying land.

Anyway, if Gimli was allowed in, then why not Hurin? Why not Tuor? Why not Turin? (well.....maybe not Turin.....). But Hurin and Tuor? Their actions far out-shadowed those of the Fellowship. I'd bring Beren into this, but that went in a totally different direction.

vampires are cool!
07-05-2009, 11:00
There is the issue of Deus Ex Machina. Thats how Tolkien wrote it and thats how it is.

Condottiere
07-05-2009, 11:08
Humans have been blessed to pass through the Halls of Mandos, when they die. This may or may not be an automatic ticket to Valinor, without bothering with a sea voyage. Their final fate might be an even better paradise.

Phoenix Blaze
07-05-2009, 15:49
None know where Men go when they die. But I think Mandos does mention that they go beyond the sea, as in, beyond the sea west of Aman. Of course, this is before the Changing of the World.

But, they depart from this earth entirely, it is part of the gift of men.

IllidanStormrage
07-05-2009, 18:18
what happens to aragon?

does anyone know? i know he becomes king of minas tirith, but does he die eventually?

Condottiere
07-05-2009, 18:25
It's also in the appendix.

He lives a long life and voluntarily passes away, just before he feels that his faculties will desert him; Arwen is against it, but accepts the inevitable.

IllidanStormrage
07-05-2009, 18:30
oh cool thanks for the response :)

Eldarion
07-05-2009, 22:44
Yep then His Son Eldarion takes the Throne of Gondor and all the remaining elven lands in Middle earth.

melgorth
07-05-2009, 23:22
Of course Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli would also all have died eventually as well, as Valinor doesn't confer immortality upon its inhabitants and would more likely hasten their deaths if they are anything like men. I also think that I have read somewhere that Frodo was only granted a position on Tol Eressea within sight of the Undying Lands, not within the lands themselves.

Eumerin
10-05-2009, 21:57
Of course Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli would also all have died eventually as well, as Valinor doesn't confer immortality upon its inhabitants and would more likely hasten their deaths if they are anything like men. I also think that I have read somewhere that Frodo was only granted a position on Tol Eressea within sight of the Undying Lands, not within the lands themselves.

Given that the elven dead exist in Valinor, I don't know that it's too much of a stretch to speculate that non-elves might have immortality conferred upon them by their presence there.


Anyway, if Gimli was allowed in, then why not Hurin? Why not Tuor? Why not Turin? (well.....maybe not Turin.....). But Hurin and Tuor? Their actions far out-shadowed those of the Fellowship. I'd bring Beren into this, but that went in a totally different direction.

Hurin did a "bad thing"(tm), and was at least partly responsible for what happened to his family (including his son). He made the mistake of letting his pride dictate his actions and mouthed off to Morgoth while being held captive by the latter. Nearly all of the bad things that happened to Hurin's family after they were driven into exile (including his son, Turin) was the result of a curse that Morgoth applied to Hurin's family specifically to punish Hurin for his pride. Morgoth forced Hurin to watch the results of that, and then finally released him when Turin was dead.

Tuor's fate is up in the air given that he appears to be the only man who married an elf that didn't become mortal herself. He sailed West, but others here have noted in another thread here he apparently made a stop along the way and then abruptly vanished from the stories. Given the usual pattern to these stories, one would expect some sort of change to the lifespan of either Tuor or Idril. And given that they sailed West, a dispensation to allow Tuor to travel to Valinar seems the most likely outcome. But we don't really know.

Condottiere
10-05-2009, 22:07
Tuor's case seems to be exceptional, all you have are hints of what might have occurred. One theory is that he may have become or counted as an Elf. Rather speculative, I'm afraid.

Phoenix Blaze
10-05-2009, 23:24
The Akkalabeth mentions that Aman is know as the undying land because the immortal dwell there, not because it gives some sort of immortality. I think it's then that it's also mentioned that men would wither faster in Aman as the glory would almost overcome them, burning them out than their alotted time.

Eumerin
11-05-2009, 07:38
The Akkalabeth mentions that Aman is know as the undying land because the immortal dwell there, not because it gives some sort of immortality. I think it's then that it's also mentioned that men would wither faster in Aman as the glory would almost overcome them, burning them out than their alotted time.

On the other hand, we have two instances of immortals becoming mortal (Luthien and Arwen) and one instance of two individuals who were granted the opportunity to decide whether they would be mortal or immortal (the brothers Elrond and Elros). So it may be possible to tweak the system if the circumstances are right.

Phoenix Blaze
11-05-2009, 08:28
Maybe. But Elros and Elrond had Elven blood in them, hence their choice.

It might just be me, but it seems that the third age has a lot less Eru-intervention than the 1st and 2nd did.

Condottiere
11-05-2009, 08:47
The Gods are distancing themselves from direct involvement, and their lands are probably dimensionally phased out of sync with Middle Earth.

Iracundus
11-05-2009, 13:57
Elven dead remained because it was decreed the fate of Elves was to be bound to the world. The Gift of Men was death and to go "beyond". The cases of Luthien, Arwen, Elrond, and Elros are exceptions where individuals were granted special dispensation (presumably by Eru) to choose their fate.

This goes back to the idea of things having an "essential nature." Eru made it so that the essential nature of Elves was to exist forever within the world so long as the world itself existed, and the essential nature of Men to die. Although Men like the Numenoreans could have their lifespan extended, their essential nature was unchanged as they would still ultimately die. In seeking true immortality within the boundaries of Arda, Men would be trying to violate this essential nature of themselves and Tolkien wrote that if hypothetically they achieved indefinite existence within Arda, eventually it would become a burden and torture to them as their soul's essential nature would be to leave the world, while their body would cling to the soul.

In Tolkien's appendices and further writings, it is revealed that Aragorn, aka Elessar, had the gift of choosing when he would die, and that he eventually chose to do so before he became old, decrepit, and senile. Given Tolkien's Catholic values and unacceptability of suicide within that paradigm and Middle Earth's paradigm by extension, this wasn't so much suicide by Aragorn as voluntarily letting go of life and this offer being accepted by Eru.

Condottiere
11-05-2009, 14:44
That was an ability that in the beginning all Numenoreans had, or at least their nobles. Later on, they clung to live to the point where their body decayed and finally gave out.

Phoenix Blaze
11-05-2009, 21:35
I wouldn't call it an ability, more of a connection with life.

Animals know when their time is upon them, and they can pretty much lie down and die when they have to. The Numenorean kings used to do the same, letting life and go and passing on. That Aragorn did the same just brings that old tradition and way of life (well, way of death) back.

Eumerin
13-05-2009, 06:30
Maybe. But Elros and Elrond had Elven blood in them, hence their choice.

It might just be me, but it seems that the third age has a lot less Eru-intervention than the 1st and 2nd did.

Yes and no. It's true that only one life-span is tweaked (i.e. Arwen's) and lifespans have been the focus of much of this discussion, but Eru also brings Gandalf back from death (iirc it's mentioned in one of Tokien's letters that only Eru could do that) - and that's a pretty significant act.

The Second Age actually seems to be the one with the least such sort of thing. It opens up with Elrond and Elros, but I can't think of anything else that we can really point to and say, "Eru Illuvatar did that."

Then again, that could also be because that's the period of time that's the least well-documented.

Condottiere
13-05-2009, 06:54
It also has to do with the fear of death, or at least, very human fear of the unknown. The Elves probably know what awaits them, but humans don't. We become very attached to our material life, and it would require an act of faith to let it go voluntarily, while our bodies still are in almost prime condition.

Phoenix Blaze
13-05-2009, 10:24
Morgoth is also to blame for this. He made the darkness a thing to be feared and whilst Sauron served on Numenor, he intructed the Men of the ways of Morgoth and brought about the fear of death.


Well, Eru did drown Numenor, reshape the world and pluck Aman away from it. That's a fairly massive intervention.

Eumerin
14-05-2009, 06:38
Well, Eru did drown Numenor, reshape the world and pluck Aman away from it. That's a fairly massive intervention.

Did he? My recollection was that the Valar did that. But it's been quite a while since I've read the book.

Condottiere
14-05-2009, 07:55
My recollection as well; they might have asked for an intervention.

Phoenix Blaze
14-05-2009, 10:45
I believe it was Eru. While the Valar do have the power to reshape the land, I get the feeling that making a flat world round and taking Aman away is a bit beyond their powers. If they could do that, then why didn't they try something like that with Morgoth? Take Thangorodrim away and send it into the Void?

Avatar of the Eldar
14-05-2009, 19:11
First of all, I think we need to clarify things. The Grey Havens are the harbours in Middle Earth from where the boats to Valinor leave. Valinor, in Aman is the holy land, the undying land.

Anyway, if Gimli was allowed in, then why not Hurin? Why not Tuor? Why not Turin? (well.....maybe not Turin.....). But Hurin and Tuor? Their actions far out-shadowed those of the Fellowship. I'd bring Beren into this, but that went in a totally different direction.

Get out your Ouji Board and ask Tolkein yourself. That's the way he rolls. Hurin, Tuor, Turin did not undo Morgoth. Yeah, the were epic heroes, but in no mythology are the gods fair.