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Templar-Sun
07-05-2009, 16:52
Whats your first impression of the new codex.

I say bravo GW! The orders and new units are really interesting. I've really only thumbed through it but man it appears to be awesome!

Valkyrie model... *faints*


Templar-Sun

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 16:54
We have more options...
We lost other options..

We can take more leman russes etc
Leman russes etc cost more

We have orders..
We lost doctrines

Its a good book, few things i dislike, but those are the things getting changed for everyone so its no big deal. (pos 15 pt extra armor)

x-esiv-4c
07-05-2009, 17:08
It feels somewhat polarized. Their options are too expensive or cheap. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 17:11
It's an over all major buff.

Guard were smack dab in the middle in terms of power. Now I think they are easily king of the Mid Tier bunch in the hands of a good player, that's more than enough to bring down the Top Tier armies.

SirSaladhead
07-05-2009, 17:18
My regular opponents already rated it overpowered due to the mass of tanks one may field...and all their AP3 weapons.

Personally, I want my doctrines back. Nuff said.

LordofWar1986
07-05-2009, 17:21
First glance-> Guard are a very balanced army now.

My only concern: How expensive the LR's still are :(

Nero
07-05-2009, 17:27
I played an assault-based traitor guard army, so needless to say I'm pretty pleased.

Personally, I always liked the idea of doctrines but felt they were implemented poorly - some of the more interesting options were hilariously overcosted (such as 6++ saves and exchanging lasguns for laspistol+ccw). Not a huge loss, and my chem-inhalers have more than a couple replacement mechanics.

I don't like the continued importance placed on special characters. I was hoping they'd drop that after C:SM. At least they're not quite as mandatory in C:IG as they were in the smurf's latest codex (and I can use Straken as a Chaos Space Marine leader for my army, so I'm not complaining too much...).

If I have one major gripe, it's... where did the Sergeants' lasguns go!? Seriously!

Madfool2
07-05-2009, 17:33
First glance-> Guard are a very balanced army now.

My only concern: How expensive the LR's still are :(

Well now they can move and shoot, so if they got cheaper AND that ability, that'd be OP.

CommissarSean
07-05-2009, 17:41
I like the book however:
the only thing i dont like is that if you want to take more then 3 tanks then you have to start taking them in squads, and then they have to shoot at the same targets and if one of them are immobiled it counts as being destroyed :wtf:
whos bright idea was that???
I i miss being able to take doctrines :cries:
But there we go, i like it otherwise
some times i think that GW are just out to annoy me ;)

kultz
07-05-2009, 17:45
New Guard.

Plenty of new cool tricks and new rules. Spiffy.

Plenty of cost reductions. Guardsmen is cheaper than its worth. Spiffy?

Powerful tanks can be fielded in overwhelming numbers, able to catch unprepared players off guard. The only thing preventing the Russes from being overpowered is a few nuances in the new vehicle squadron rules.

All it would take is a single careless edit of the vehicle squad rules, and we'd be in trouble.


Order System. Can be effective. Makes Guard much more flexible than before.

Valks. Some people compare this to the Eldar skimmers. I disagree. Lacks super-duper options to keep it safe, and lacks super-duper squad of death to insta-gib an enemy squad.

The only thing I worry about is the new Hellhound variants.
Cheap enough to be fielded in numbers, powerful enough to kill most things.

Oh well, only time will tell.

Too early to decide.

CEO Kasen
07-05-2009, 17:47
If I have one major gripe, it's... where did the Sergeants' lasguns go!? Seriously!

That, and Heavy Weapons Teams are handled a little oddly. However, my complaints are somewhat mollified by the drop in Guard squad point cost. So... Yeah. Wonderful stuff. :D

LordofWar1986
07-05-2009, 17:51
Well now they can move and shoot, so if they got cheaper AND that ability, that'd be OP.

To me the price hike is a little too steep to justify that ability, but beyond that it is a mere game balance issue. If defensive weapons were like how they where in 4th, then I could understand this point hike. :)

No worries though, I still to plan to use a lot of infantry and HW's to help out my tanks :p

Sleggy_
07-05-2009, 17:55
We all have our Opinions.
I feel that the IG new Codex makes the IG look A Bit Cartoonish and Childish (My Opinion)
Although the New Rules Rock! :cool:

Promethius
07-05-2009, 18:14
There are a lot of good things with this codex: the ability to take vast amounts of armour, the re-costing of basic guard squads, making stormtroopers worth taking, the orders system and several others. A couple of sticking points: bizarre price hikes for things like basic commisars, which are now not worth taking. For a few more points, take a commisar lord, who comes with refractor field, special rules, more ws/bs/w/ld. With the commisar profile I would say they are worth 20, tops. Another odd one is doubling the points of power weapons, which were already far from widespread, and, in the hands of str3 models, not an obvious investment in any case.

Advisors, whilst cool and useful, are far too expensive to take in every game, which makes them of limited value in an 'all-comers' list (not necessarily a major disadvantage).

The valkyrie is fantastic. The chimera is once again a viable choice. I'm loving the stormtroopers (I can't wait for plastics so I can model them rapelling out of the valk).

Count de Monet
07-05-2009, 18:14
Too much cool stuff, not enough points to cram it all into one list. :o

mcflurry
07-05-2009, 18:22
I like it. It's cheap enough to be useful- 70 points then weapons was ridiculous in 4th ed! Rhinos were 50....

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 18:27
Well now they can move and shoot, so if they got cheaper AND that ability, that'd be OP.

They could always move and shoot the main gun :P a extra heavy bolter's doesnt always make it worth the extra price increase.

Durath
07-05-2009, 18:30
I'll preface my opinions with some positives first...

Many things in this book were much needed:
- Almost all vehicles are squadrons (cept two Ord. Heavy Support choices, which shouldn't be anyhow). IG are built to rely on heavy armor, now they can take enough to be effective.
- The Leman Russ weakness of a requirement to be stationary in order to fire all it's weapons has been corrected.
- KP games are no longer a concern for guard due to manditory unit counts. A Lord Commisar, and Vets can take your manditory HQ and two Troop slots (3 KPs down from 9). There are plenty of high-cost options that are effective which can fill 1500-2000 point army if you are looking to minimize unit count.
-There are some great options for upgrade Characters and Special Characters.
-There is better representation of the fluff in this book.

Now for some negatives...
The guard were given some things which are blatantly broken, and pushed this codex into OP status;
- Valkyries.... wtf? They were 140 points in Imperial Armor and Apoc, now they are 100 points, get more weapons, have more special rules for deployment and movement, and +1 on the front and side armor? Constituents of this vehicle will quickly point out that IA values were intentionally inflated and had the Flyer rule. I'll preemptively point out that IF the vehicle had been dropped to 100 points, and the Flyer rule changed to Scout, that would have been enough. All the extra bonuses make it OP.
- Vendettas are even more WTF?!? They are valks with 3x 10 point twin-linked Lascannons!!! Huh... ok, this is balanced how?
- Leman Russ Punishers - Heavy D20 STR5 AP- + a Heavy Bolter. So for 180 points, I can move this thing 6", and get 23 Str 5 shots. For another 20 points I can get two more HB, for a total of 29 STR 5 shots from a 200 pt. vehicle that can move and fire all of it. Oh, and it has better rear armor than a regular LR too. Still... at range 30", you can move and blast an infantry squad hard.
- Devil Dogs... 24" Str 8, AP 1 BLAST. The Multi-melta was a blast weapon in 2nd edition. Why all the sudden has it been restored to this state JUST for imperial guard?
- Bane Wolf - A Poisoned (2+ to wound) AP 3 Template weapon? Cmon...

There are more less pronounced items, (like being able to subtract -1 to ALL reserve rolls for your opponent), but when added to the whole of this army's capabilities, makes the list beardy as heck.

I originally put this book at a 8.5 on a 1 to 10 scale of OP (1 being garbage, 10 being unbeatable). After reading into it some more, It's easily a 9.0 to 9.5.

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 18:31
pfft Plas cannons are where it's at for sponsons. Move fire turret, fire sponsons... mmmm three blasts of death mmmmmm

Durath, It's pretty apparent that you haven't actually done any games with or against the new guard nor thought about how HUGE the Valkyrie is. Av12 for something that BIG? Come on man Plasma guns can take this thing down reliably. Nor is it a dedicated transport. Forgeworld's rules are notoriously bad overpriced (Tau Piranha anyone?). Most of the stuff you say is too good, most guard players consider more liability than asset. For one the valkyrie is going to sit 7" ontop of the board, and is about the size of a baneblade for another. Can we say "shoot me" written all over it? Gimme a Wave Serpent, or Land Raider over this any day.

Devil Dog, isn't broken. Ever see what a Fireprism can do? Or a Wave Serpent?

Banewolf very short ranged, but well balanced against the new Hell Hound.

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 18:33
pfft Plas cannons are where it's at for sponsons. Move fire turret, fire sponsons... mmmm three blasts of death mmmmmm

Sorry, but if you move 6" you may fire turrent and only 1 other weapon + defensive.

So.. its Move.. and 2 blasts :P

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 18:39
true... but why would you ever think about moving with a Russ? :evilgrin: The range on it's weapons is just so sick.

Unless we are talkin Punishers.. but those are just so meh (even guardsmen get saves against them! just remember that Punisher lovers)

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 18:41
true... but why would you ever think about moving with a Russ? :evilgrin: The range on it's weapons is just so sick.

Better fire lanes
Closer to contest objectives
Missions that you get points for vehicles in opponets deployment
range for when using demolisher style tanks.
Your not auto hit in close combat when assaulted finally


a few of my reasons at least :P

Captain Brown
07-05-2009, 18:43
Liked the Chimera point adjustment.

Not such a great fan of the Leman Russ points increase...especially when Tau Hammerheads with Railguns continue to take them out with ease...once they are done with the tanks their large blast anti-infantry rounds make short work of the slightly cheaper infantry squads.

I found the points reduction in the infantry squads was not enough...or rather they provide you with a fairly pointless veteran sergeant and frag grenades to justify the 50 points. When do you use frag grenades as a human with I3? The sergeant cannot take a Lasgun and this cannot benefit from the "Front Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE" order. I guess the Sergeant is partially needed because they changed the Vox to only affect orders now.

Orders, I am undecided as yet, but so far they really have not done much...I have not had an instance were I needed the extra save at the cost of being immobile and unable to fire for two rounds. The extra Lasgun shots are really pointless unless you have combined several squads to give you numbers...and even then it is Str3. The radius for orders is also very, very small for the Platoon Command Sections.

The points cost increase in the Ogryns seems...well...I have not fielded them as they cost too much still.

The change from the old Medi-pack to the new FNP medic at triple the cost - when combined with the 50% increase in Plasma Guns means that my Medics are left at home...as there are usually only 5 models in a Command Squad.

The Valkyrie and Vendetta are very nice and they counter-act the Guard's big weakness of slowness.

I have seen loads of the special characters appearing...mainly for the extra orders or special orders...but it is allot to pay to get those extra orders or larger command radius. Not sure how I feel about that.

My two cents,

CB

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 18:43
I use mine strictly to kill things and absorb fire. Sounds like we use our russes totally differently. :)

JustTony
07-05-2009, 18:54
I think it's great. Here's why.

My brother used to use the army list for an Armored Company from the Forgeworld Imperial Armor book. He has most of the FW IG tank models (only missing the Conqueror, Thunderer, Trojan and the various superheavies) and sometimes using both his list and his models was an issue as a given opponent would go "Waah-waah, :cries:they're ForgeWorld models and a FW list! Waah! not fair! I won't play, Waah!:cries:". Now only happened occassionally but it was enough to put my brother off of 40K for a while.

Now just about every FW model he owns (Vanquishers, Manticore, Bombard/Colossus, Enclosed Basilisk, Enclosed Medusa, Hydra, Valkyrie, Executioner) are in the codex. What will the crybabies do now? :eek: The only FW models they missed are the Jagdpanzer style Tank Destroyer, the Thunderer and the Logistics vehicles (Powerlifter, Trojan, Atlas) and the two Chimera varients, Salamander Command and Scout vehicles and the Autocannon turret varient for the Chimera. He does need to add a few more Guardsmen, mostly for command squads since everything he had was Armored Fist squads (allowed in the AC list without the leg platoons).

I will also be adding to my IG, which was mostly used as Inducted Guard in a Deamonhunter list. Now I'll either run straight IG or use my Grey Knights as allies, given that the current Deamonhunter codex doesn't really have a list worth putting on the table without either Allied Space Marines or lots of Inducted Guard. Grey Knights by themselves just don't cut it anymore.

I don't care about the special character "issue" some people seem to have. If you want to play them, fine, go ahead I don't mind. I'll probably get Nork Deddog for my list, he just sounds like a hoot, and I remember the fluff from the old codex where the wounded officer told him to go get the first aid kit IN the Chimera and he went and got the WHOLE Chimera. Otherwise maybe the tank ace guy, but I think I'll name mine Mike Wittman, and the Bastonne sgt character.

All in all, the new IG codex answered most of my brohter's prayers. I just wish there was still a way to do a dedicated Elysian Drop Troop army, although the Valkryies to help in that respect, but you really need more than 9 of them. :angel:

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 19:08
Elysians: Stormtroopers, Valkyries. Sentinels (say the outflank is them dropping in) Vet squads and there you go.

lequaye
07-05-2009, 19:12
On the whole I really like the list, it seems to have breathed some fresh air into the old boys. However as of yet I have not tested it out on the field of battle so what do I know? I was wondering however what people where thinking of the new stuff such as the psyker battle squads and the Deathstrike missile launcher. They look like interesting ideas and could be fun to use, but will they ever get taken by anyone? They just seem a bit gimmicky to me for some reason.

decker_cky
07-05-2009, 19:24
Having read all the rumours, I got the book and was really impressed by how much there really was. There's a ton of really interesting options, some great entries and lots of fluff, even if it's mostly rehashed old fluff. I say bravo to GW. It's not often that you look through a book and even the choices that are 'weaker' like stormtroopers are interesting enough that you can see a solid use for them. I think the punisher is the only choice that I know I pretty much won't be taking ever from the book.

unclejimbo827
07-05-2009, 19:26
I like the book however:
the only thing i dont like is that if you want to take more then 3 tanks then you have to start taking them in squads, and then they have to shoot at the same targets and if one of them are immobiled it counts as being destroyed :wtf:
whos bright idea was that???
I i miss being able to take doctrines :cries:
But there we go, i like it otherwise
some times i think that GW are just out to annoy me ;)

I agree, drawbacks and balance are ********.

:rolleyes:

DarkMatter2
07-05-2009, 19:31
There's a ton of really interesting options, some great entries and lots of fluff, even if it's mostly rehashed old fluff.

On this point, I really have to disagree. The *******' amount of new fluff in the IG codex is really one of its high points.

Most of them are new encounters and wars that we have not heard of before - the last IG codex was fluff starved, and, as far as I can recall, only had one real battle story and that was for the Battle of Tyrok Fields.

Durath
07-05-2009, 19:34
Just to preface - The problem isn't that guard got all these cool toys... the problem is that they got them for dirt cheap...


Durath, It's pretty apparent that you haven't actually done any games with or against the new guard nor thought about how HUGE the Valkyrie is.

I've played in Apoc games with FW Valks (which I believe are slightly bigger than the plastic ones). They have a large profile, but assuming there is adequate terrain, and if you base it correctly, with a 12"-24" move, you should be able to keep it hull down for 80% of your opponent's fire. This is really a poor argument for WHY they have been given to the guard at such a low cost.

Besides, while your Valks are getting shot up, your 4-6 LRs are advancing undeterred.


Av12 for something that BIG? Come on man Plasma guns can take this thing down reliably.

33% is reliable? Hmm. We must have different outlooks on what reliable is.

I have a Chaos Daemons army... I'll tell you first hand 33% is not reliable.


Nor is it a dedicated transport.

And? You can still claim objectives in non-dedicated transports.

If you are complaining that it uses an FA slot, I'll point out that it IS a Fast Skimmer and can have multiple armaments. Also considering the Vendetta as good if not better tank popping ability than a Predator, I'd say it's a steal for it to be Fast Attack.


Forgeworld's rules are notoriously bad overpriced (Tau Piranha anyone?).

See my first post.


Most of the stuff you say is too good, most guard players consider more liability than asset. For one the valkyrie is going to sit 7" ontop of the board, and is about the size of a baneblade for another. Can we say "shoot me" written all over it? Gimme a Wave Serpent, or Land Raider over this any day.

Covered that above. Kthx.


Devil Dog, isn't broken. Ever see what a Fireprism can do? Or a Wave Serpent?

This vehicle's Multi-Melta's being blast makes it potentially more destructive than a regular Multi-melta for just 120 points. To compare, an STR 8 AP 3 Blast weapon for Chaos is a minimum of 140 points.


Banewolf very short ranged, but well balanced against the new Hell Hound.

So it's balanced that a 130 point model can easily kill an entire 170 point 10-man marine squad in one shot?

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 19:39
Is it fair that 170 pt squad can split into 2x 5 man squads and kill the tank in 1 shot with a missle launcher while the other 5 advances giving 2x scoring units for 1 slot with a 3+ armor save T4.. etc etc etc etc

DarkMatter2
07-05-2009, 19:41
I feel like it would be really difficult to catch 10 marines under a flamer template.

Captain Micha
07-05-2009, 19:42
Also, given that Marines these days spend most of their time inside of transports moving around to a good spot and then unloading hitting it with a Chem Cannon (let alone catching a full squad) can be a difficult proposition. It's best perk is roasting Objective guarders.


Lemme guess my Battle Cannon is too good because it munches Marines like nothing? It's not like it says "denies even invuln saves" or anything. Furthermore, if he's using his Devil Dog to munch a Marine squad either you've already lost because he's popped all your vehicles or you've not taken any or he's already lost because he's a stupid *****.

Considering a Plasma gun can take it down -that well- in the first place should tell you something about just how Vulnerable a Valkyrie is. All the draw backs of a Hound, no where to hide.

7" is -taller- than most Terrain pieces in other words it's not getting cover because you can always see enough of the model to deny it cover. It being the size of a baneblade also makes it a great deal -longer- and -wider- than most cover. So where exactly are you hiding this thing again?

You -have- to use the 7" tall base with the Valkyrie. So there's no creative basing to really get around that. (nor would you want to base it with less since you couldn't move it around terrain pieces easily plus the other skimmer bases are utterly worthless to even skimmers, let alone something of that size)

You can't claim objectives with it because it is not a scoring unit. The best it can do is -contest- them which is a tremendously different ball game than claiming them. At best the Valk is a Glass Cannon. It'll do damage for one turn. And then it dies. It's no where near as reliable as a Serpent or Land Raider and is a larger model than both because it lacks any form of durability beyond moving Flat Out. (and that's not everything it's cracked up to be either because again it has no Serpent Field).

To clarify I'm not saying the Valk is a piece of trash that shouldn't be fielded, but it is far from the Be All End All that Smurfers and Eldar want to whine and claim that it is.

The Hounds are a much better unit because they are more consistent against more opponents in my opinion, they are also more compact, and easier to hide. Nor do they have Shoot Me practically painted on the broadside of a barn for every piece of heavy weapon to blow out of the skies.

The Punisher is really only good against MCs and Orks and utterly terrible against other GEQs and almost worthless against MEQ, and by itself naked costs almost as much as my Las Plas Vanilla Russ.

infernus31
07-05-2009, 20:40
Of course the cargo the valks can carry can be scoring :) My veterans (that use to drop troop anyway) now ride in these outflanking and then deploying to unleash their 3 special weapons. So far it has worked well, but thats only so far.

The Valks and Vendettas are nice but as Micha says, there are severe drawbacks , the size and lack of cover means its all too easy to take down.

I really enjoy the codex though, the sheer ammount of possibilities and versatility of the new Guard codex seem (to me at least) to forgive the loss of doctrines. My army works well, and I enjoy the need to refocus and adapt (my old list was getting a bit samey)

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 20:44
Even thou valk is lacking, i still plan on owning 2 more of them before long :P

Lord Wasa
07-05-2009, 20:56
I've played in Apoc games with FW Valks (which I believe are slightly bigger than the plastic ones). They have a large profile, but assuming there is adequate terrain, and if you base it correctly, with a 12"-24" move, you should be able to keep it hull down for 80% of your opponent's fire. This is really a poor argument for WHY they have been given to the guard at such a low cost.

Hope you've seen the base it is on. it is 5" high. the only way to get a cover save is to move flat out, then you can't fire.


Besides, while your Valks are getting shot up, your 4-6 LRs are advancing undeterred.

aye, but with more than one valk, 4-6 LRs+HQ and infantry, were now talking ~2000. in those armies, you should have enough umpf to take on more than the valk in one turn


33% is reliable? Hmm. We must have different outlooks on what reliable is.

I have a Chaos Daemons army... I'll tell you first hand 33% is not reliable.

when you have more than one weapon that has a 33% killchance, it is reliable. You can't expect one plasmagun to do all your work.


And? You can still claim objectives in non-dedicated transports.

No, to do so, you have to be within 3", as i said, the valk base is 5" high...


If you are complaining that it uses an FA slot, I'll point out that it IS a Fast Skimmer and can have multiple armaments. Also considering the Vendetta as good if not better tank popping ability than a Predator, I'd say it's a steal for it to be Fast Attack.

they are good, yes. The vendetta however will probably not be on the board for more than 2 rounds though, since it is "only" AV12 and has such a destructive potential. It will attract more fire than fire attracts flies.




This vehicle's Multi-Melta's being blast makes it potentially more destructive than a regular Multi-melta for just 120 points. To compare, an STR 8 AP 3 Blast weapon for Chaos is a minimum of 140 points.

Being blast also means it will scatter like crazed in the hands of a guardsman. Speaking of that 140 point blast chaos has, I'm suprised you don't bring up the MoO, who has the same profile, more scatter and large blast. for 30 points.


So it's balanced that a 130 point model can easily kill an entire 170 point 10-man marine squad in one shot?

is it balanced that a lascannon toting space marine can take out a baneblade in one shot?

Captain Corallis
07-05-2009, 21:28
That fear of the Valk is exactly what im relying on in my army. The enemy have a choice with my list. Do they go after the 2 leman russ that are locking on to their heavy infantry, do they take out the heavy weapon teams behind the cover or maybe the veteran squad that has outflanked behind their heavy guns? They could choose to target the valk but they will be leaving themselves open for a world of hurt next turn.:evilgrin:

Cpt Corallis

totgeboren
07-05-2009, 21:41
Not such a great fan of the Leman Russ points increase...especially when Tau Hammerheads with Railguns continue to take them out with ease...once they are done with the tanks their large blast anti-infantry rounds make short work of the slightly cheaper infantry squads.


I have tried it out, and realized my Lemans got alot better at taking out enemy vehicles. Now I get to fire the lascannon too, meaning about double the chance of scoring a kill.
And the poor Tau seriously got an uphill struggle against the new guards. At least let them keep their better tanks. :P




I found the points reduction in the infantry squads was not enough...or rather they provide you with a fairly pointless veteran sergeant and frag grenades to justify the 50 points. When do you use frag grenades as a human with I3? The sergeant cannot take a Lasgun and this cannot benefit from the "Front Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE" order. I guess the Sergeant is partially needed because they changed the Vox to only affect orders now.

Orders, I am undecided as yet, but so far they really have not done much...I have not had an instance were I needed the extra save at the cost of being immobile and unable to fire for two rounds. The extra Lasgun shots are really pointless unless you have combined several squads to give you numbers...and even then it is Str3. The radius for orders is also very, very small for the Platoon Command Sections.


The synergy between the different parts of the Guard army makes me feel that the points are quite alright. I used Bring it Down!, FRFSRF!, Move Move Move! and Get Back in the Fight! to great effect the first battle I played.
Conscripts on the other hand are abit pricey imo.

Also, it must be said that I moved a 30-man strong squad with 3 flamers all within 12" of a squad of Striking Scorpions and gave them the FRFSRF!-order. 15 saves from the flamers and 16 from the lasguns/pistols = one wiped out squad of Eldar. :D
Also, it was dead fun to roll 60 lasgun dice to hit! :D



The points cost increase in the Ogryns seems...well...I have not fielded them as they cost too much still.

The change from the old Medi-pack to the new FNP medic at triple the cost - when combined with the 50% increase in Plasma Guns means that my Medics are left at home...as there are usually only 5 models in a Command Squad.


Yeah, I'm still torn about the Ogryns too. They look kinda useful, but for each ogryn, I get 10 conscripts, or more than half an IG squad with all the upgrades I could want. :/

And the medic... hmmm... I used one in my HQ, but they never got shot, so I dunno. They are really expensive thats for sure. :(

Mordian Marauder
07-05-2009, 21:48
I want the armory back. I liked equipping my Officer with almost any weapon available as opposed to the more limited choices we get now.

Still, other than that- I like what I've read so far!

Durath
07-05-2009, 21:54
Is it fair that 170 pt squad can split into 2x 5 man squads and kill the tank in 1 shot with a missle launcher

This is incorrect. On average dice, you are going to have to shoot a Bane Wolf with a missle launcher three to five times to get a reasonable chance to kill it (66% chance to hit, 33% chance to pen) (rear armor will rarely or ever be presented to a missle launcher).

The Chem Cannon on the other hand is going to auto-hit all marines it can touch, and wound all but 2. They will get no cover save (because it's a template) and no armor save. On top of that, you have a Heavy Bolter shot to finish off any remaining marines. If they are lucky, one SM model will be left, at which point he will either have to run away or be consumed the next turn.

If you have a bunch of marines huddled behind cover trying to hold an objective, this thing will wipe them out. This happens all the time, as I've used my Doom Sirens to produce similar outcomes many many times. The Chem Cannon is worse.


while the other 5 advances giving 2x scoring units for 1 slot with a 3+ armor save T4.. etc etc etc etc

The reset of what you said is meaningless in the comparison of kill-ability and survivablity for the points.



Also, given that Marines these days spend most of their time inside of transports moving around to a good spot and then unloading hitting it with a Chem Cannon (let alone catching a full squad) can be a difficult proposition. It's best perk is roasting Objective guarders.

Which is exactly what my scenario would entail. If you have a Rhino/RB with marines in it, parked next to an object at the end of the game, you've done something wrong, period.

I will also point out for the replies to my post that a Rhino would add another 35 points to that 170 point squad, making it a 205 point squad.


Lemme guess my Battle Cannon is too good because it munches Marines like nothing? It's not like it says "denies even invuln saves" or anything.

You pay more for the Battle Cannon do you not (min 150, but most people will run 170-200 point LRs)? Hence no complaints from me.


Furthermore, if he's using his Devil Dog to munch a Marine squad either you've already lost because he's popped all your vehicles or you've not taken any or he's already lost because he's a stupid *****.

No... no... no...

The DD is a blast weapon. This means if you target a vehicle with it, and it deviates, there is a good chance it will deviate back over the top of the same vehicle, or onto a non-vehicle unit. This has nothing to do with shooting at infantry with it.


Considering a Plasma gun can take it down -that well- in the first place should tell you something about just how Vulnerable a Valkyrie is. All the draw backs of a Hound, no where to hide.

That well? Seriously, 33% is not THAT well!


7" is -taller- than most Terrain pieces in other words it's not getting cover because you can always see enough of the model to deny it cover. It being the size of a baneblade also makes it a great deal -longer- and -wider- than most cover. So where exactly are you hiding this thing again?

You -have- to use the 7" tall base with the Valkyrie. So there's no creative basing to really get around that. (nor would you want to base it with less since you couldn't move it around terrain pieces easily plus the other skimmer bases are utterly worthless to even skimmers, let alone something of that size)

You can keep complaining about model size, but I will still reject this as a valid complaint.

Any model, no matter what size, that is not properly manuvered to utilize terrain, is subject to unmodified fire.

You can't say "most" terrain is 7" and expect this to apply to everyone always. Maybe this is true where you game, but I've seen 12" towers and hills used prolifically through the hundreds of games I've played.

If you have a problem with terrain where you game, you should make some bigger pieces to give the bigger models more cover!


You can't claim objectives with it because it is not a scoring unit. The best it can do is -contest- them which is a tremendously different ball game than claiming them.

/facepalm

Since this vehicle is a transport, if you have a Troops choice IN the Valkyrie you use the HULL of the Valk to measure the distance in which you can CLAIM objectives.


At best the Valk is a Glass Cannon. It'll do damage for one turn. And then it dies. It's no where near as reliable as a Serpent or Land Raider and is a larger model than both because it lacks any form of durability beyond moving Flat Out. (and that's not everything it's cracked up to be either because again it has no Serpent Field).

A Land Raider? Cmon, a Valk/Vend isn't even in the same ball park points wise (at about half the cost).

And the Vendetta is arguably a glass cannon, but the Valkyrie is not. It's just a troop carrier... but is one of the best, if not the best in the game. All you have to do is keep it flying around at Flat out speed.

As far as your comments on the Wave Serpent goes... are you saying IG should have Wave Serpents? The Valk has a higher AV. And AV 12 is a lot tougher than you are giving credit for. Each point of AV is 16% less chance of a glance or pen. That adds up quickly.


To clarify I'm not saying the Valk is a piece of trash that shouldn't be fielded, but it is far from the Be All End All that Smurfers and Eldar want to whine and claim that it is.

At 100 points, I'd say its undercosts. The Vendetta is even more undercosted by the virtue of having 3 TL-Lascannons for only +30 points.


The Hounds are a much better unit because they are more consistent against more opponents in my opinion, they are also more compact, and easier to hide. Nor do they have Shoot Me practically painted on the broadside of a barn for every piece of heavy weapon to blow out of the skies.

Hell Hounds I presume you mean? Conveinently enough, you can bring 3 of each per FA choice. You aren't really having to trade anything to have both.


The Punisher is really only good against MCs and Orks and utterly terrible against other GEQs and almost worthless against MEQ, and by itself naked costs almost as much as my Las Plas Vanilla Russ.

HEAVY 20 STR 5.... I guess you aren't seeing the devastation of this, including against MEQs.

Even with no AP, two Punishers with all HB upgrades will kill a seven marine squad per turn (58 STR 5 shots, 29 hit, 20 wound, 7 die). For even better results, you can put Pask in one of them for +1 BS, and make them more killy.

There is nothing in the game that gets Heavy 20, apart from Apocalypse Legendaries. It's just overkill.

kikkoman
07-05-2009, 22:02
>>There is nothing in the game that gets Heavy 20,

10 fire warriors hopping out of a devilfish are about equivalent in firepower (though not range)
I don't think they're regarded as a particularly fearsome unit.

SPYDER68
07-05-2009, 22:05
>>There is nothing in the game that gets Heavy 20,

10 fire warriors hopping out of a devilfish,
I don't think they're regarded as a particularly fearsome unit.

umm

New guard Punisher tank = str 5 Heavy 20..

Unless your being sarcastic and i missed it.

totgeboren
07-05-2009, 22:38
umm

New guard Punisher tank = str 5 Heavy 20..

Unless your being sarcastic and i missed it.

hehe, I think you missed him using the ">>" to indicate that he quoted the poster above.

And I agree. Just about everyone says 10 FW jumping out of a DF can not be regarded as a powerful unit for the points.
They fire 20 S5 Ap5 shots, with the same BS as the Punisher. If they are not "all that", why should the Punisher be considered powerful, when its the same, except it lacks the Ap?

MrBims
07-05-2009, 23:00
HEAVY 20 STR 5.... I guess you aren't seeing the devastation of this, including against MEQs.

Even with no AP, two Punishers with all HB upgrades will kill a seven marine squad per turn (58 STR 5 shots, 29 hit, 20 wound, 7 die). For even better results, you can put Pask in one of them for +1 BS, and make them more killy.

There is nothing in the game that gets Heavy 20, apart from Apocalypse Legendaries. It's just overkill.

I like how you specifically say two Punishers now. Maybe you actually did the math for it and said, oh ****, this isn't actually that great. I've got to double the forces of the IG player in the equation in order to make it work.

7 Tacticals are 122 points. Two Punishers w/ HB sponsons are 400. Are you really going to make the claim that 400 points of anti-infantry tanks being able to take out 122 points of infantry per turn is somehow overpowered? A single 150 point Leman Russ Battle Tank will regularly take out 3-6 MEQs per turn. Is that overpowered?

Durath
07-05-2009, 23:15
I like how you specifically say two Punishers now. Maybe you actually did the math for it and said, oh ****, this isn't actually that great. I've got to double the forces of the IG player in the equation in order to make it work.

7 Tacticals are 122 points. Two Punishers w/ HB sponsons are 400. Are you really going to make the claim that 400 points of anti-infantry tanks being able to take out 122 points of infantry per turn is somehow overpowered? A single 150 point Leman Russ Battle Tank will regularly take out 3-6 MEQs per turn. Is that overpowered?

7 Tac marines a turn for two units to kill at 24" range is huge.... but fine lets do the math for just one 1 Punishers at 200 points.

It can kill 3.5 Marines per turn. So in three turns that ONE LR Punisher can mop up a Marine squad.

Lets say the Marines have a Lascannon (which is 180 points without a Rhino or any character upgrades), and decide to shoot back...

That single lascannon has a 4% chance to kill an AV 14 LR (66% chance to hit, 16% chance to pen, 33% chance to destroy) That means he will need to shoot at it roughly 25 Turns for a sure kill on it.

Yes.... this can happen... but we are talking average dice rolls... the Punisher COULD hit with everthing and wound with everything and the marines could fail their saves, which would produce 29 wounds!

And that's the POTENTIAL devastation this thing can bring to infantry. Of course this won't be the average... but even with averages, this thing is horrendous.


hehe, I think you missed him using the ">>" to indicate that he quoted the poster above.

And I agree. Just about everyone says 10 FW jumping out of a DF can not be regarded as a powerful unit for the points.
They fire 20 S5 Ap5 shots, with the same BS as the Punisher. If they are not "all that", why should the Punisher be considered powerful, when its the same, except it lacks the Ap?

3 reasons...

AV 14 is immune to all but STR8+ fire. Even at that, STR 8 would take forever to pop it (unless it's AP1), but you are STILL looking at less than a 10% chance to kill it. Firewarriors can be mowed down with STR 4 weapons fairly handedly.

Also.... add 9 more shots to the thing if you put full HB on it. 29 shots... not 20.

AND Firewarriors only get those shots at 12". The Punisher is 24" range.

MrBims
07-05-2009, 23:26
7 Tac marines a turn for two units to kill at 24" range is huge.... but fine lets do the math for just one 1 Punishers at 200 points.

It can kill 3.5 Marines per turn. So in three turns that ONE LR Punisher can mop up a Marine squad.

Lets say the Marines have a Lascannon (which is 180 points without a Rhino or any character upgrades), and decide to shoot back...

That single lascannon has a 4% chance to kill an AV 14 LR (66% chance to hit, 16% chance to pen, 33% chance to destroy) That means he will need to shoot at it roughly 25 Turns for a sure kill on it.

Yes.... this can happen... but we are talking average dice rolls... the Punisher COULD hit with everthing and wound with everything and the marines could fail their saves, which would produce 29 wounds!

And that's the POTENTIAL devastation this thing can bring to infantry. Of course this won't be the average... but even with averages, this thing is horrendous.

Now you're just being stupid. Yes, an anti-infantry tank is going to kill infantry. Get over it. Plasma cannons kill Terminators. Melta guns kill tanks. Punishers kill infantry. That's just the way the game is.

Why are you obsessing over this one thing? The Punisher isn't even good! A single Leman Russ Battle Tank will do significantly more damage than the Punisher, while being able to take on a much wider variety of targets than it and, oh ****, it can do it all while being 72 inches away! Why isn't the LRBT overpowered?

And don't start talking about "COULD hit everything...". The odds of hitting and wounding with all those shots is so astronomical it's not even worth talking about. Have you ever flipped a coin 29 times and had it come Heads-up every time?

Durath
07-05-2009, 23:28
A single 150 point Leman Russ Battle Tank will regularly take out 3-6 MEQs per turn. Is that overpowered?

Two things...

A 150 point LR is going to have to choose to kill armor or infantry.

The 200 Point punisher is ONLY designed to kill infantry. It's a focused role.

Besides, there's nothing stopping you from bringing 150 point LRs AND 200 point Punishers, except points. And for 700 points for 4 Lemans, you've got one hell of a tough army already, and aren't even halfway through a 1500 point list.


Now you're just being stupid. Yes, an anti-infantry tank is going to kill infantry. Get over it. Plasma cannons kill Terminators. Melta guns kill tanks. Punishers kill infantry. That's just the way the game is.

Why are you obsessing over this one thing? The Punisher isn't even good! A single Leman Russ Battle Tank will do significantly more damage than the Punisher, while being able to take on a much wider variety of targets than it and, oh ****, it can do it all while being 72 inches away! Why isn't the LRBT overpowered?

You call me stupid and aren't even reading my post....

So an LRBT has the potential to produce 29 wounds a turn?

Think about it.

[edit]
And don't start talking about "COULD hit everything...". The odds of hitting and wounding with all those shots is so astronomical it's not even worth talking about. Have you ever flipped a coin 29 times and had it come Heads-up every time?

{EDIT}
Of course not, so you apply averages. 3.5 MEQs a turn for 200 points is sick. That's about what the Land Raider Crusader was doing at that 24" range, and people cried constantly about it. And... it eventually got nerfed (rending).

Epicenter
07-05-2009, 23:33
It's hard to say if the IG codex is overpowered.

Looking through the Codex at first, I admit I was like, "holy cow" (well actually it involved an obscenity regarding waste matter), but the closer I look at it, the less overpowered it is to me. The numbers look fantastic on paper, but a lot of the choices seem to have pretty significant drawbacks as well, usually involving points costs or squadron rules. Or both. It's something like the new SM codex. You look at the Land Raider Redeemer and think "holy cow, those Marine killing flamers and it has TWO of them!" then you actually use a Redeemer once and never again once you realize you that thing has stupidly short range, can't fire if it moves more than 6", and the size of the Land Raider means it's really only ever going to fire one.

It's very hard to fit in all the really powerful options in a good way into most lists without cutting corners that will hurt you later on, especially if you're playing in the 1500 - 1850 points range. In armor, a lot of the very powerful options are very short-ranged. I have my doubts if a Bane Wolf, for instance, is ever going to get more than a single shot off, even if you hide it from ranged fire. The infamous Punisher also has a severe range problem. If you make it stand still to fire it, it's an AV11 vehicle against the assault that will occur the next turn. Did the Punisher kill its points back? I doubt it. Hopefully the fear of it made your opponent shift tactics so it pays off that way.

And the Vanquisher really got hurt. It still has armor penetration bonus, but it doesn't +1 on the damage chart, and it can't fire an ordinance blast instead. That second part really hurt when I took one and I was looking at the tank to see how it'd do against a Land Raider. Oops. I apologized to my opponent and we started the game over because I had (foolishly) assumed it could still switch between fire modes and had been shooting them at the CSMs with a blast.

Other options were made surprisingly powerful in ways that don't seem obvious at first. Ogryn I think are real powerhouses now. I need to play with them more, but being immune from Space Marine powerfist and lascannon insta-kill makes them a lot more viable. I think they're still a bit overpriced but not nearly as much as I thought.

Stormtroopers seem very iffy to me. On paper, they seem really mighty. The mathammer tells a different story. I'm curious to how they play out. I haven't used them yet.

Yeah, the Valkyrie...might be a bit too strong for the points cost. Again, I'm not sure. They seem to be at that price range where if you're taking Vendettas it's going to eat into your "armor budget." Who knows. Maybe Valkyries/Vendettas are our Seer Council / Nobz Bikers. Though personally I think the latter two are better for overpowered units.



- Leman Russ Punishers - Heavy D20 STR5 AP- + a Heavy Bolter. So for 180 points, I can move this thing 6", and get 23 Str 5 shots. For another 20 points I can get two more HB, for a total of 29 STR 5 shots from a 200 pt. vehicle that can move and fire all of it. Oh, and it has better rear armor than a regular LR too. Still... at range 30", you can move and blast an infantry squad hard.

A small nitpick - you can't move and shoot all of it. Russes get an exception to the "Defensive Weapons" rule by being able to shoot another gun as well as the turret weapon, but that's it. 23 shots on the move (+ the stubber or stormbolter if you stuck one on). 29 (+ if you stuck a stubber or stormbolter on there) only if you don't move. 23 shots sounds pretty impressive, but about half of those are going to hit. I don't know. I haven't really played with the Punisher much but between the Guard's not-so-hot ballistic skill and it's short range, I don't think it's really going to be doing much firing per game - probably one shot, two if you're lucky in most games before it's overrun and destroyed.

Lord Wasa
07-05-2009, 23:40
Durath, I find that you often make scenarios where the guard unit has all advantages and the opposing unit has all the disadvantages. Ofcourse a Punisher will kill light infantry like no tomorow, that is what it was designed to do. But if you factor in cover saves, the BS3 that the guard have and eventual denied areas due to enemy antitanks, then it looks more normal. Everything has pros and cons, that is the whole point. If you start showing the worst case scenarios as well as the best case scenarios, your posts will seem less like whining and more like serious discussion. Just a little advice.

My first impression was: "I'm gonna have so much fun building the force I've always wanted to, but never been able to, YAY!"

Doctrines are gone, which unfortunately means less characterful options,
but it was a flawed system and we got much more options ans upgrades in the unit entries to compensate for it.
The things that annoy me are mostly small things like how vox-networks work, seargents no longer having lasguns and heavy weapon squads having 2 wounds.
As I said, this is just small things though and I am very pleased with the codex as a whole.

*EDITED DUE TO GENERAL UNFRIENDLYNESS IN ORIGINAL VERSION*

Neilza
08-05-2009, 00:21
Well good fluff and some good new units but could of left some of the old options in for other squads.Could of been better.

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 00:23
The Punisher is crap, nothing else. Every other Russ will outperform it on a point per point base, and killing 3 Marines in one round of shooting is laughable. You know what will do the same on average: 10 marines rapid firing. For about the same cost.

I played an Executioner with Pask, Plas sponsons and a Lascannon today. A nice 295 points. He shot down a Wraithlord in one turn...overpowered? I doubt it.

My personal opinion on the Codex: it's great. I have tried most of the wacky stuff by now, found Ogryns useful, like the Primaris psyker a lot, love commissars to bits (seriously, in a 30 man platoon with a few special weapons it's 1 point per model to make them stubborn with a reroll on a 9. Awesome. So are veteran sergeants with power swords in a 27 man meatshield).

The order system is great, I have used all of them with great success by now. Even the weird "Incoming" order. Saved me two KP in today's game, when a single officer weathered off the shooting of a squad of Rangers, and the last 4 survivors of my assault platoon (40 guys, commissar, 4 plasma guns, 5 power weapons) held their ground in cover.

Said assault platoon killed a unit of Dire Avengers by virtue of FRFSRF (56 lasgun shots plus 4 plasma shots at 24" at that point), beat a unit of Harlequins down in combat despite losing 12 men on the Harlequin's charge (Commissar...), and to add insult to injury, the last 5 guys (a veteran sergeant, 2 plasma gunners, the vox guy and the commissar) killed the remaining Exarch of another DA unit that had looked too closely at the Executioner's barrel before digging in. Totally worth it. In that one game, I used "move move move", FRFSRF, "incoming" and "fire on my target" on that one unit alone.

Durath
08-05-2009, 00:40
killing 3 Marines in one round of shooting is laughable. You know what will do the same on average: 10 marines rapid firing. For about the same cost.

Rapid fire is 12". The Punisher Gattling Canons are 24". So you get another 12" on those shots with the Punisher.

SanguinaryDan
08-05-2009, 00:40
Just got my Codex in the mail today, and I'm really liking what I see. Some things just seem goofy and poorly written (anybody want to explain how the Tallarn Captain's sword works based on what's printed?) but the rest looks good.

My only true :wtf: is on the Hydra. The price drop compared to the IA:1 price is ridiculous. A drop of 125 points? That's so bizarre that I'd almost think it was a misprint.

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 00:43
The opponent will in that case also roll 10% better saves...

Seriously, the maximum potential of a unit is somthing that happens once in a million times (no Discworld jokes please). The probability that he does absolutely nothing is far higher than the probability of causing 29 wounds. You know why? To cause 29 wounds you have to hit and wound 29 times. To do nothing, you only need to miss 29 times.

edit: a kitted out Punisher is 210 points with HBs and stubber. 10 marines in a drop pod with a meltagun...tadaaa...


(anybody want to explain how the Tallarn Captain's sword works based on what's printed?)

Who knows. They had to give some rules to the Claw of the Desert Tigers which used to be a power sword that causes Fear in 2nd edition. There is no real equivalent to that in 40K anymore, so they went the ID way to show that it is a completely awesome handcrafted power sword. And well, it's on a Guard character.

The Hydra is totally understandable. The 200 points they charged earlier were absolutely ridiculous. No way anybody would have paid that. The new Hydra is worth what it costs, maybe 10 points more.

Epicenter
08-05-2009, 01:43
Just got my Codex in the mail today, and I'm really liking what I see. Some things just seem goofy and poorly written (anybody want to explain how the Tallarn Captain's sword works based on what's printed?) but the rest looks good.

It's a horrid little description. I'm guessing it hits at his standard strength. If it wounds, it attempts to do Instant Death (I say "attempts" because Eternal Warrior is like the new "Invulnerable" and everyone you want to kill with it has it).

Who cares when you have Guardsman Marbo, though.

[quote=SanguinaryDan;3551674]My only true :wtf: is on the Hydra. The price drop compared to the IA:1 price is ridiculous. A drop of 125 points? That's so bizarre that I'd almost think it was a misprint.

I suspect maybe they lowered the price because of all the complaining about the old (ridiculous) 200 point cost. ;) I actually wrote a letter to Forgeworld about it. Especially compared to the Eldar Firestorm that was about as good at shooting down aircraft, survived like a Falcon, carried troops ... and still cost less.

freddieyu
08-05-2009, 01:49
The Claw is exactly what is written...a s3 power weapon that causes instant death....meaning for it to be truly useful you should go against multiwound models such as other characters or monsters and such...would be a great combo with furious charge from either straken or kell....but for most times it would be just a regular power sword unless like I said you use alrahem's squad to countercharge something nasty....

Legionary
08-05-2009, 02:12
I think the new Guard codex takes the Imperial Guard from being at the bottom of the middle-strength armies to being at or near the top of the middle-strength armies. Mainly it adds options, with some nice improvements balanced against other nasty effectiveness decreases. No Leadership bubbles are nasty (previously almost everything was testing against Ld9/10 thanks to nearby officers, now most stuff is testing Ld7 and Ld8 - big difference). Some units are overcosted.

The argument over the Punisher is ridiculous. Against Marines a battlecannon shot will probably do more damage.

10 Marines hit by a 100% accurate Punisher w/ hull HB & HB sponsons suffer 19.14 wounds, 6.31 Marines fail their saves. Result: 6.31 dead Marines

10 Marines hit by a 100% accurate battlecannon suffer 8.3 wounds, no saves. Result: 8.3 dead Marines

That doesn't even take into account the hull mount or sponsons of the Russ. Anything sounds powerful if you twist the figures to give it utterly unrealistic results on the dice, the sort of results you'd have to roll for every minute for decades in order to be likely to achieve.

Where does the Punisher excel? In dealing with stuff that's going to be on top of your army very quickly and which you are therefore going to be taking a big risk by shelling it with ordnance. Otherwise, give me a LRBT any day.

As to the Bane Wolf being overpowered... if your army has 3+ saves and you let this thing get on top of you, and you keep your squads packed tightly enough that you lose an entire unit, then frankly you deserve to have that level of decimation. It's a horrific tank coming towards you, redirect lascannon/melta fire from the other stuff and take it down hard. It's only AV12/12/10, not exactly a difficult prospect.

Plasma Guns will only damage a Valkyrie 33% of the time. And? Should a weapon that costs 15pts be guaranteed to shoot down a vehicle that costs at least 100pts? Should a primarily anti-infantry weapon be guaranteed to shoot down a vehicle? If you're failing to get results with a Plasma Gun, stop shooting units at the wrong target. AT fire goes onto vehicles, Plasma fire goes onto infantry. Just because a Lascannon can be used to kill infantry and a Plasma Gun can be used to kill vehicles doesn't mean that they should be.

Is the issue that the Guard's stuff is crazily overpowered, or that you think your army should be able to defeat all Imperial Guard stuff by default, whilst remaining at little to no risk?

Shrapnel
08-05-2009, 03:18
I think the new Guard codex takes the Imperial Guard from being at the bottom of the middle-strength armies to being at or near the top of the middle-strength armies....
<snipped for brevity!>
....Is the issue that the Guard's stuff is crazily overpowered, or that you think your army should be able to defeat all Imperial Guard stuff by default, whilst remaining at little to no risk?
Hear hear. I think the punisher debate can be safely put to bed now :).

As regards my first impressions, I initially bemoaned the loss of the leadership special rules for officers. But then I read through it again and realised that the only squads that lose out are those without sergeants and they shouldn't be put in the position to take leadership tests anyway. Also most of the options available in the last codex are here too, and in most cases are even more practical.

Techpriests are worth taking because of the amount of armour available now. chimeras are finally competitively priced. Priests can be placed where they can do damage, instead of taking your command squads for jogs. The fast attack hellhounds and its variants are at last FAST. Doctrines are still available for the units that benefit from them most. Platoons are not a requirement. Junior officers finally have a BS befitting their rank.... I could go on for days here!

I still feel that the codex sacrifices some of its fluffiness in favour of increased competitiveness - this is a thing both to be mourned and celebrated - particularly regarding the (over?)abundance of named characters.

Overall I'm very happy with the codex, not for the big flashy new stuff like tank squadrons and valkyries - I'm very happy with those too! - but because finally the guard are able to do the little things properly.

But above all, we now have a shot in kill-point missions.

Marshal Augustine
08-05-2009, 03:51
I see the new guard codex as a step forward. They did a good job. I like all the options and ahh there are so many options. I can see guard players going all out and trying all the new shiny toys, but in the end I can see them just mending their old lists to fit the new point values... and having points to spare just put more things in that will work for any particular force.

By the way, the prospect of 9 basillisks in 1500pts is just gross.

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 13:13
This is incorrect. On average dice, you are going to have to shoot a Bane Wolf with a missle launcher three to five times to get a reasonable chance to kill it (66% chance to hit, 33% chance to pen) (rear armor will rarely or ever be presented to a missle launcher).

The Chem Cannon on the other hand is going to auto-hit all marines it can touch, and wound all but 2. They will get no cover save (because it's a template) and no armor save. On top of that, you have a Heavy Bolter shot to finish off any remaining marines. If they are lucky, one SM model will be left, at which point he will either have to run away or be consumed the next turn.

If you have a bunch of marines huddled behind cover trying to hold an objective, this thing will wipe them out. This happens all the time, as I've used my Doom Sirens to produce similar outcomes many many times. The Chem Cannon is worse.


The DD is a blast weapon. This means if you target a vehicle with it, and it deviates, there is a good chance it will deviate back over the top of the same vehicle, or onto a non-vehicle unit. This has nothing to do with shooting at infantry with it.

Since this vehicle is a transport, if you have a Troops choice IN the Valkyrie you use the HULL of the Valk to measure the distance in which you can CLAIM objectives.


As far as your comments on the Wave Serpent goes... are you saying IG should have Wave Serpents? The Valk has a higher AV. And AV 12 is a lot tougher than you are giving credit for. Each point of AV is 16% less chance of a glance or pen. That adds up quickly.


And you are using Missile launchers why? Last time I checked they weren't winning awards for "King of Anti Tank" in the first place nor are they winning them for Anti Infantry Kings either. Last I checked there's this nasty gun called the Melta Gun, which is cheap and easy to field. And if the Banewolf is close enough to fire you -are- capable of getting something close enough to use it. Please, pack your infantry tightly for me unlike smart players who see the list and think "I better spread out". Please. I beg you be stupid.

Or my Colossus.. is that broken too? it's Ap3 LARGE BLAST and denies cover. It's also pretty cheap to field. And you -will- be In range of it's gun where as the DD Banewolf, and Hellhound can be avoided by a smart mechanized player for two turns while you pepper those medium weight vehicles with AT fire from things like your Land Raider, or Defiler (or insert other Actual Anti Tank weapon systems) Jump Infantry with Melta guns= dead Hound.

Furthermore thanks to Wound Allocation it's actually better to only fire the Chem Cannon and nothing else if I'm shooting at a squad and some how get that template over the full squad. It's also better if that squad has already taken casualties.


Actually if the DD deviates so far that it's not ontop of the vehicle it doesn't "deviate back" if it deviates that far, it's gone. "But it could hit another squad waaah!" so can my Medusa round. I don't see you whining about that one either.

Or the Demolisher cannon. Which is packed on a far more survivable tank than the DD.

Or the Leman Russ turret. (again the tank if you are going for cheap isn't that much more costly than a Multi Melta equipped DD which is the most likely configuration for it)

Due to the height that the Valkyrie sits off the ground, in most cases actually the troops inside can't claim objectives. Period. They've got to get out. Which if the thing has moved flat out (which is pretty likely for a last turn grab) is a risky proposition.

No the valkyrie is not more armored than a Serpent. I don't even want to know what you are smoking to think this. Av12 Av12= Av12 Av12. The serpent, though is arguably more survivable than a Monolith, thanks to the Serpent Field, which the Valkyrie lacks. And The Serpent is a much much smaller model using a much smaller base.

16 percent less you say? Versus what? Non Melta weapons? Non Rail Guns? Non Ordnance? Not Mcs, Chainfists, or Meltabombs? So basically what you are saying is that Av=extra survivability against crappy Anti Tank weapons, and infantry fire? Well duh. Sorry against any of those things listed AV12 is a joke (and against a good portion of those it's really Av10).

"You should use Taller terrain!" right, since you get to pick the terrain at tournament, and preset boards. Furthermore half to 3/4s of the model must be obscured by terrain to get that cover save in the first place. Towers, Spires, and tall narrow buildings aren't going to do that.

Your proposition of "balance" has very little to do with real world playing and what "can happen" yeah or any real comparison between units... and I can roll all 6s to wound with my lasguns and be using First Rank Fire Second Rank... too, bringing down even Termies and MCs. But the likely hood of everything going perfectly going to plan are pretty low. Sure it happens, but there's a chance that your opponents plans go perfectly too.


All I see here is a Chaos or Marine player whining because the guard actually get some interesting toys. (though one of them sucks. the Punisher)

So yeah, if you don't actually know the rules don't know how to really play the game and ignore exorbitant point costs and make "perfect" scenarios for each of those units they are going to perform extraordinarily well. However the same can be said for any and every unit in the game. Even Pariah and Vespid.

Shrapnel
08-05-2009, 13:55
Pair of vanquishers, pair of demolishers with plasma sponsons, Executioner with plasma sponsons, fill the rest of the list with wave after wave of infantry....
*Drools*

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 13:59
Executioner I agree with... that thing is sexy.. though I have to wonder is it -really- worth more than a demolisher?

(and is the Demolisher -really- worth more than a standard Russ? You give up so much range with a Demolisher round....)

djinn8
08-05-2009, 14:00
There's lots of thingsI like with this codex, but a few things that don't make much sense when it comes to the special charaters, such as the Al'Rahim ID sword already mentioned above. But also, why is Yarrik so hard to kill? I know that he's all "True Grit", but the Iron Will rule is better than Saint Celestine's equivelent rule, and shes... you know... immortal.

And don't get me started on why Straken hits vehicles with the strength of a Bloodthirster.

And why does Bastonne cost more than Harker? Lets compare shall we:

Bastonne: Can give orders to his squad, HS Las Pistol.
Harker: Increased ST, Relentless HB, FNP + Infiltrate, +1 Cover and MTC for his squad.

I guess it might be because the codex seems to favor the Catachans a little more.

Oh... and no Mordian or Voystron characters?

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 14:02
Cause it fits Yarricks fluff. Also I suspect it is a precursor to how they might handle WBB in the future.

Bastonne and Harker, I feel are equal in what they provide for the army. I thought I was the only one that liked Harker more feeling that he does more for the squad, where as Bastonne could influence the army more.

SPYDER68
08-05-2009, 14:05
Executioner I agree with... that thing is sexy.. though I have to wonder is it -really- worth more than a demolisher?

(and is the Demolisher -really- worth more than a standard Russ? You give up so much range with a Demolisher round....)

I would easily give up a russ for a Demolisher to have one..

14/13/11 to spearhead your army... cant beat that.

freddieyu
08-05-2009, 14:10
Both are great (harker and bastonne)..in fact many others are good too.....

For example..Straken...you can have a generic company squad with the advisors attached, to babysit the firebase, and you have straken lead the other group which advances to take objectives....suddenly you have a mass of potential s4 i4 guardsmen who will not just run away since straken's squad also has a banner....

et al..you guys can think of many other potential configs which could be extremely useful...

Bekenel
08-05-2009, 14:31
There's lots of thingsI like with this codex, but a few things that don't make much sense when it comes to the special charaters, such as the Al'Rahim ID sword already mentioned above. But also, why is Yarrik so hard to kill? I know that he's all "True Grit", but the Iron Will rule is better than Saint Celestine's equivelent rule, and shes... you know... immortal.

And don't get me started on why Straken hits vehicles with the strength of a Bloodthirster.

And why does Bastonne cost more than Harker? Lets compare shall we:

Bastonne: Can give orders to his squad, HS Las Pistol.
Harker: Increased ST, Relentless HB, FNP + Infiltrate, +1 Cover and MTC for his squad.

I guess it might be because the codex seems to favor the Catachans a little more.

Oh... and no Mordian or Voystron characters?
Bastonne can give orders to his own squad, which is actually a lot more brutal than you think. You can leave his squad when doing orders, freeing your Company and Platoon Officers to deal with Infantry Squds. Bastonne also can always re-group, regardless of restrictions. That's better than a Space Marine, oh and he is Ld10. There's a very good reason he costs more.

Shrapnel
08-05-2009, 14:37
I would easily give up a russ for a Demolisher to have one..

14/13/11 to spearhead your army... cant beat that.
Plus the strength 10 AP2? Goodnight!

Also, Take Creed and Kell as your Command squad and you never have to worry about orders again! Expensive yes, but for a leadership bubble that encompasses your entire army, and 4 orders a turn rolling on Ld 10, it's well worth it.

GotTofu
08-05-2009, 15:33
So I'm unsure how exactly to field my valkyrie, one shot missles vs rocket pds, laz cannon vs multilaz, heavy bolter side gunners or no.

Also the general question whether to go as cheap as possible or as effective as possible.

What does everyone think about the use of the door gunners, are they worth it? Can they target seperate units??

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 15:56
Well, I personally think the new codex is ********, and I've been playing guard for 12 years on and off. Yeah I can win, actually I've not lost with it in the 6 games I've played, but did any guard player ever start because they liked to win?

My fluff has been destroyed, I can't customise my army worth ****, so many special characters are either mandatory or utterly stupid, and many of the units are so utterly ill thought out it's not even funny.

The order system might be unique, but it's so utterly flawed and beyond logic, that I grind my teeth every time I ponder it. Radios that only work when within shouting distance, orders that imply that 500.000.000.000 guardsmen are always performing sub-par, and that some idiot shouting at you, allows you to hit something better. There are three actual orders in the codex... "For Cadia", "Like the Wind", and "Get back in the fight!"... two of these are special character orders.

Vehicle squadrons that are amazing, untill you discover that you need to play 2000+ points games to actually use them for anything.

The death of heavy weapons squads... instant killed, running away 50% of the time when one of them dies, and only one way to counter it (Commisar Lord).

Boring boring infantry... no infiltrating, deepstriking, move through cover, carapaced, camelioline cloaked units at all... like I wanted 10+ exactly similar units with no special skills at all, and at -1 point it's a joke.

I absolutely loathe 90% of the Codex, and it's now firmly placed in my storage area and I'm painiting up some Orks instead... at least it will be a long time before GW get's around to cluster****ing that codex up.

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 16:04
Funny there's more fluff and more viable choices in the new codex than the last Joke Pamphlet That thinks it's a codex.

Are you having one of those glue induced hallucinations or are you being sarcastic?

I use squadrons on a regular basis actually. If it weren't for squadrons I couldn't field my 327th Cagirean at all really. (2 Bassie types, and 2 Russes).

Heavy weapon squads are still quite viable, infact they are just as effective as before (remember if one of those guardsmen died, you lost the heavy weapon anyway) It's actually -better- that they are 2 W units.

Veterans = the best way to do Doctrines. Gimme this over having to pay the points in -every damn squad- when not every damn squad is going to be able to use the ability any day any time and any place.

If you hate the new army so much, perhaps you can send me your models? I could use more stuff. Especially vehicles.

SPYDER68
08-05-2009, 16:04
Well, I personally think the new codex is ********, and I've been playing guard for 12 years on and off. Yeah I can win, actually I've not lost with it in the 6 games I've played, but did any guard player ever start because they liked to win?

My fluff has been destroyed, I can't customise my army worth ****, so many special characters are either mandatory or utterly stupid, and many of the units are so utterly ill thought out it's not even funny.

The order system might be unique, but it's so utterly flawed and beyond logic, that I grind my teeth every time I ponder it. Radios that only work when within shouting distance, orders that imply that 500.000.000.000 guardsmen are always performing sub-par, and that some idiot shouting at you, allows you to hit something better. There are three actual orders in the codex... "For Cadia", "Like the Wind", and "Get back in the fight!"... two of these are special character orders.

Vehicle squadrons that are amazing, untill you discover that you need to play 2000+ points games to actually use them for anything.

The death of heavy weapons squads... instant killed, running away 50% of the time when one of them dies, and only one way to counter it (Commisar Lord).

Boring boring infantry... no infiltrating, deepstriking, move through cover, carapaced, camelioline cloaked units at all... like I wanted 10+ exactly similar units with no special skills at all, and at -1 point it's a joke.

I absolutely loathe 90% of the Codex, and it's now firmly placed in my storage area and I'm painiting up some Orks instead... at least it will be a long time before GW get's around to cluster****ing that codex up.

First off.

1) Special characters are even close to needed in new dex, imo they are a waste of points.

2) Tank squads... what did you expect ? them to give us cheap armor 14 tanks so we can take 9x of them for 1000 pts ?

3) I think you need to re look infantry.. Stormtroopers can deepstrike better then ever with re roll....

Veterans can have Carapice armor... camo cloaks.. move throu cover... and count as troops.. How is that not variety ? Sure if you spam infantry platoons its all the same... but how is that different from taking alot of ork boy mobs that are all the same ?

freddieyu
08-05-2009, 16:09
Hey it's his opinion...I have been playing IG for a year less than lamoron, but I have the opposite opinion. I LOVE the new dex, and I am not an armor freak, but an infantry freak, mainly because the guardsmen are cheaper...so I can field more...

If other guys feel nerfed by the new IG codex, then so be it. As long as they don't leave the hobby but try other armies, more power to them! I am sure more players have a more positive opinion, as evidenced by the fact that more people want to try an IG army now, at least here...

Trench_Raider
08-05-2009, 16:14
the only thing i dont like is that if you want to take more then 3 tanks then you have to start taking them in squads, and then they have to shoot at the same targets and if one of them are immobiled it counts as being destroyed


Yeah, the good idea fairy certainly bit someone on the butt for that one.


I want the armory back. I liked equipping my Officer with almost any weapon available as opposed to the more limited choices we get now.


Yup.
Welcome to the wonderful world of 5th edition codexes and their dumbed down/streamlined choices. :rolleyes:

All in all, with the exception of a few minor quibles I'm pretty happy with the noew codex. But someone did comment recently that my own IG army is pretty damned abhuman heavy...I was fiedling ogryns, ratlings, and a beastman attack squad (counts as penal troops) in the same force!

TR

MrMojoZ
08-05-2009, 16:15
orders that imply that 500.000.000.000 guardsmen are always performing sub-par, and that some idiot shouting at you, allows you to hit something better.

At my job performance goes up dramatically when a boss shouts at someone. Your examples of why the codex is bad are mostly nonsense or flat out wrong.

freddieyu
08-05-2009, 16:16
All in all, with the exception of a few minor quibles I'm pretty happy with the noew codex. But someone did comment recently that my own IG army is pretty damned abhuman heavy...I was fiedling ogryns, ratlings, and a beastman attack squad (counts as penal troops) in the same force!

TR[/QUOTE]

Hey that's a nice and interesting them!!! I bet witchhunters would love to fight your army!

Interesting idea using the beastmen!!! Hmmm....

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 16:17
I love the new book :)

It is the fifth rules iteration of the Imperial Guard that I play (2nd edition onwards), and probably the most fun.

You can do a lot more with it than with the old codex (because the doctrine system was horribly flawed, with only the cheap or the free ones worth taking so everybody still ended up with the same; the balancing factor of restricted troops wasn't there because you didn't want most of them due to their virtue of being crap), there are a lot less duds in it, and for the first time since 1998, the Guard is powerful and a force to be reckoned with.
I doubt that people will start smiling at you if you tell them that you're attending a tournament with this one, something that I have encountered lots with the old book, and even more with the also weak book before that.
I am currently working thorugh the book, trying everything that's in it, and as of now, I am very pleased. You can just do so much with it, and what you do even works (you could also do a lot of individualisation with the old codex, I grant you that, but most of it turned out as crap on the tabletop).

And the special chars don't seem to be mandatory to me. I am still wondering what Creed is really supposed to be good for, I'd rarely have a use for more than 4 orders anyway, and 2 command squads and a company command provide that).
His buddy Kell is overpriced junk, a couple of voxes are cheaper and orders on 8 rerollable almost never fail, that is slightly better than standard LD10, which is good enough for me.


But someone did comment recently that my own IG army is pretty damned abhuman heavy...I was fiedling ogryns, ratlings, and a beastman attack squad (counts as penal troops) in the same force!

+1 for theme. Some regiments like it that way. Mine tends to run around with a good measure of Ogryns and a few Ratlings. They are part of the Guard for a reason - they give the Imperium a skill that guardsmen don't have, and it is good that way.

The Song of Spears
08-05-2009, 16:19
I say GREAT JOB GW!!!!! just like the Ork and SM codex, it is awesome, and i dare say even more characterful to play with or against.

Orders = awesome! They add to the feel of the game so much.

valkaries, tank options galore, platoon options galore, so much win in the new codex.

Hey GW how about you use that magic to resurrect the bland chaos dex???

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 16:21
Creed is cheaper than having a second Hq, but other than that I don't know what he's really for myself. Don't get me wrong I'm gonna field him eventually but Harker strangely enough is first on my list.

I'm still testing the rest of the army out, I am trying to save Special Characters for the last.

SCs aren't mandatory. out of the 5e games I've done with guard I've lost twice, and when I've won I've dominated and I don't use SCs so they are hardly "mandatory".

I enjoy this new codex because of the Army Variety that it can field. Who cares about your Serj with power sword or bolter, or whatever. Your mini special characters don't make an army Unique. It's what you field and how you play it. My Guard force is a widely different force than the other guard player in my area. Both of our armies seem equally viable so far.

I've spotted at least four competitive builds with this codex that aren't one trick ponies so far, (and by competitive I mean actually capable of Trouncing a Lash, or Ork player). Most of the power of the new guard comes from proper management of units rather than Play Itself, like alot of previous Dex power builds.

SPYDER68
08-05-2009, 16:27
Creed is cheaper than having a second Hq, but other than that I don't know what he's really for myself. Don't get me wrong I'm gonna field him eventually but Harker strangely enough is first on my list.

I'm still testing the rest of the army out, I am trying to save Special Characters for the last.

SCs aren't mandatory. out of the 5e games I've done with guard I've lost twice, and when I've won I've dominated and I don't use SCs so they are hardly "mandatory".

I enjoy this new codex because of the Army Variety that it can field. Who cares about your Serj with power sword or bolter, or whatever. Your mini special characters don't make an army Unique. It's what you field and how you play it. My Guard force is a widely different force than the other guard player in my area. Both of our armies seem equally viable so far.

I've spotted at least four competitive builds with this codex that aren't one trick ponies so far, (and by competitive I mean actually capable of Trouncing a Lash, or Ork player). Most of the power of the new guard comes from proper management of units rather than Play Itself, like alot of previous Dex power builds.

How is Creed Cheaper then a 2nd HQ ?

Trench_Raider
08-05-2009, 16:28
Creed is cheaper than having a second Hq, but other than that I don't know what he's really for myself.

Allowing a hellhound unit to hit your opponent in the flank or actually making the rough rider special character a usable option by giving them that same option.

TR

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 16:30
How is Creed Cheaper then a 2nd HQ ?

Cause he does more than be an extra pair of Orders mainly.

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 16:32
Yeah, right. He can make anything scout, how could I forget that...might give him a try once I find the points for 10 Ogryns ^^.

SPYDER68
08-05-2009, 16:33
Its a huge tossup if hes even worth it...

2x command squads is 100 pts... creed is.. 140

40 pts and you get for Cadia.. and 1 unit get scout..

Not so sure that is considered cheaper unless your running a mass infantry army or really want scout on something that bad.

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 16:39
At my job performance goes up dramatically when a boss shouts at someone. Your examples of why the codex is bad are mostly nonsense or flat out wrong.
First of, even though office might feel like it at times, you are not at war with hostiles trying to eat or disembowel you, you are bored and underperforming, guardsmen at war are not.

Stormtroopers might have more options, but IMO they are a waste of printspace when you can just take Veterans that do basicly anything better at cheaper points costs, or regular guardsmen who in most games will manage more kills than the stormies will on average. They might be interesting, but taking them will decrease your army performance most of the time (über skills or luck not taken into account).

Ofcourse I don't expect GW to give me free armor 14 vehicles, I'm just saying that's it's a gimmick in anything below 2.000 points, unless you're willingly gimping yourself, by taking sub-par units to make up points so you can bring squadrons. I like tanks, I own a lot of them, more than enough to fill all heavy slots and 2/3 Fast attack choices with full squadrons, but since every tank basicly got more expensive, I can't see a squadron ever taking the field in smaller games.

Having more troops is nice, but for me they lost all appeal. Yet again I field... 100+ monkeys with lasguns, that need a high ranking officer to make them do anything even remotely interesting. When you have an officer screaming at you, you run faster, shoot better, hit like space marines in melee, and dance from enemy fire, but when your sergeant, a trusted friend, or hated foe who has the right to execute you on the spot, says something... naaah. In combat, you get an order over the radio from a ranking officer, and the sergeant motivates and drives his men to accomplish that goal, not the officer. Before I could customise every army I put together, now I can have the same generic base of grunts in every game, or resort to Veterans who are stupidly expensive if you buy their "fun options" and incredibly usefull if you don't. Also, I used a lot of the costly doctrines, admittedly mostly when I got bored with the regular ones, but the options was there.

Feel free to disagree ofcourse, I can see you do, but don't flame me or call ********... oh wait, this is the interwebs, flame on.

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 16:40
Its a huge tossup if hes even worth it...

2x command squads is 100 pts... creed is.. 140

40 pts and you get for Cadia.. and 1 unit get scout..

Not so sure that is considered cheaper unless your running a mass infantry army or really want scout on something that bad.
Creed has a 24" range command radius, and more importantly you can have him and another CCS. Expensive yes, but I found it very much worth it.

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 16:45
You do realise Stormies aren't for popping marines right?

Against everything else they are disgustingly awesome. (especially those pointed eared space elves)

I could squadron my russes right now if I wanted, and free up a HS slot for something like say a Hydra. Squadrons are for when you need more than what the Slot can normally provide you with. That's it. They aren't made to be taken en masse every where all the time.

Veterans with their Doctrine are awesome. I've run Carapace, and Camo so far and man it's great. It depends on what you need your Vets for as to what you kit them with.

Guardsmen are no worse than they were, and got Cheaper, we also got Frag Grenades which can come in handy as well as the ability to Merge Platoons. Ontop of that we gained Orders. Which are a totally free asset as far as I'm concerned (because Frags are worth 1 pt per model still). Oh and all of the heavy weapon costs have dropped.

Sentinels got a point cost drop and a boost (personally I still don't like them but there are plenty that swear by them)

the two new Hound Variants are fantastic as is the new original Hound. Fast is easily worth the slight pt cost increase we paid for it.

Valk/Vendettas I can see quite a few uses in these actually. Though their size really negates how cheap their pt cost is. It becomes a matter of preference.

Chimeras: Cheaper -and- they are armed already. Nuff said there.

No more stupid "You can't take more Armored Fist squads than you have platoons" rules either. Everything can pretty much hop in a chimera and go do it's thing or camp out in an AV12, 10 bunker.

I've got lists that don't even use Infantry Platoons as well. And given the wide range of weapons a platoon can get anyway.. I don't see this "zomg same!" bs.

Try playing Tau, Necrons, or Eldar sometime.

freddieyu
08-05-2009, 16:46
First of, even though office might feel like it at times, you are not at war with hostiles trying to eat or disembowel you, you are bored and underperforming, guardsmen at war are not.

Stormtroopers might have more options, but IMO they are a waste of printspace when you can just take Veterans that do basicly anything better at cheaper points costs, or regular guardsmen who in most games will manage more kills than the stormies will on average. They might be interesting, but taking them will decrease your army performance most of the time (über skills or luck not taken into account).

Ofcourse I don't expect GW to give me free armor 14 vehicles, I'm just saying that's it's a gimmick in anything below 2.000 points, unless you're willingly gimping yourself, by taking sub-par units to make up points so you can bring squadrons. I like tanks, I own a lot of them, more than enough to fill all heavy slots and 2/3 Fast attack choices with full squadrons, but since every tank basicly got more expensive, I can't see a squadron ever taking the field in smaller games.

Having more troops is nice, but for me they lost all appeal. Yet again I field... 100+ monkeys with lasguns, that need a high ranking officer to make them do anything even remotely interesting. When you have an officer screaming at you, you run faster, shoot better, hit like space marines in melee, and dance from enemy fire, but when your sergeant, a trusted friend, or hated foe who has the right to execute you on the spot, says something... naaah. In combat, you get an order over the radio from a ranking officer, and the sergeant motivates and drives his men to accomplish that goal, not the officer. Before I could customise every army I put together, now I can have the same generic base of grunts in every game, or resort to Veterans who are stupidly expensive if you buy their "fun options" and incredibly usefull if you don't.

Feel free to disagree ofcourse, I can see you do, but don't flame me or call ********... oh wait, this is the interwebs, flame on.

No if you feel that way it is time to move on...it is like real life work you know...when waking up in the morning to go to work feels like torture, then a change of scenery is needed.

More power to you and your budding ork army...I do hope you get to collect 8000 pts worth too..that deserves respect..

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 16:49
In combat, you get an order over the radio from a ranking officer, and the sergeant motivates and drives his men to accomplish that goal, not the officer

Depends on the organisation of your army. Warsaw pact armies used to have many more officers than NCOs because NCOs were also just conscripts who went to an indoctrination school; they didn't really know more than their enlisted boys, unlike the officers.

eek107
08-05-2009, 16:50
My first impressions: two thumbs up! I can finally mechanize a platoon without having to do the same for the rest, leaving me points for other stuff. Cheaper Chimeras and infantry squads also help. And that's just my Steel Legion. I can play my D-99 Elysians without IA4 which is great, and it looks like I can get a good Armageddon Ork Hunters army out of it as well. It's so much more flexible now than it was with doctrines, which while good in theory were executed very poorly. If you deviated from the standard no-brainer ones you were paying too much to upgrade what were already overcosted units.


But also, why is Yarrik so hard to kill? I know that he's all "True Grit", but the Iron Will rule is better than Saint Celestine's equivelent rule, and shes... you know... immortal.

Yarrick had that rule in the codex before the previous one, but for some reason they took it out last time. Now it's back and I'm happy. :)

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 17:00
You do realise Stormies aren't for popping marines right?

Against everything else they are disgustingly awesome. (especially those pointed eared space elves)

I could squadron my russes right now if I wanted, and free up a HS slot for something like say a Hydra. Squadrons are for when you need more than what the Slot can normally provide you with. That's it. They aren't made to be taken en masse every where all the time.

Veterans with their Doctrine are awesome. I've run Carapace, and Camo so far and man it's great. It depends on what you need your Vets for as to what you kit them with.

Guardsmen are no worse than they were, and got Cheaper, we also got Frag Grenades which can come in handy as well as the ability to Merge Platoons. Ontop of that we gained Orders. Which are a totally free asset as far as I'm concerned (because Frags are worth 1 pt per model still). Oh and all of the heavy weapon costs have dropped.

Sentinels got a point cost drop and a boost (personally I still don't like them but there are plenty that swear by them)

the two new Hound Variants are fantastic as is the new original Hound. Fast is easily worth the slight pt cost increase we paid for it.

Valk/Vendettas I can see quite a few uses in these actually. Though their size really negates how cheap their pt cost is. It becomes a matter of preference.

Chimeras: Cheaper -and- they are armed already. Nuff said there.

No more stupid "You can't take more Armored Fist squads than you have platoons" rules either. Everything can pretty much hop in a chimera and go do it's thing or camp out in an AV12, 10 bunker.

I've got lists that don't even use Infantry Platoons as well. And given the wide range of weapons a platoon can get anyway.. I don't see this "zomg same!" bs.

Try playing Tau, Necrons, or Eldar sometime.
Again realize that I'm not in any way saying the new IG does not kick ass, I actually specificly said they did. I'm saying they're boring. You do have a point about the lack of Armored fist idiot rules, but that hardly makes up for all the other issues ;)

x-esiv-4c
08-05-2009, 17:06
"I absolutely loathe 90% of the Codex"

Umm....Are you sure you're saying that it kicks ass?

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 17:11
More power to you and your budding ork army...I do hope you get to collect 8000 pts worth too..that deserves respect..
Well, work decided to give me a bonus for some unknown reason, so I promptly converted that bonus into green rage.

30 Shoota Boyz.
10 Slugga Boyz.
AoBR set.
2 Battlewagons.
2 Trukks.
20 Grots.
3 Big Gunz conversions.
3 Killa Kans.
9 Warbikers.
15 Kommandos & Snikrot.
Warphead
KFF Big Mek, and materials to make my SAG one.
5 Stormboyz (Forgot to add 3 more to the order :( )
And a bunch of 2nd edition models I borrowed/bought from a friend for sentimental reasons (there's even an old Ghazkull in there!)

Now to magnetize it all, so I can switch around weapon options... and still only halfway through my bonus. Got around 40 models painted up, but I completely forgot the mindblowingly boring task of painting hundreds of models in the same scheme(s) :cries:

Ah well, I wish you all good luck though, and I'm truly happy IG is competative again, and I'll look forward to having my green ass trounced by people who like playing IG.


Umm....Are you sure you're saying that it kicks ass?
W/T/L with new IG 5/0/1, fun = none... kicks ass, just not in a fun way (for me anyway). ;)

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 17:14
Again realize that I'm not in any way saying the new IG does not kick ass, I actually specificly said they did. I'm saying they're boring. You do have a point about the lack of Armored fist idiot rules, but that hardly makes up for all the other issues ;)

How exactly are they boring?

The amount of lists you can take with this dex is insane that are mechanically competitive. And they are can be quite flavorful too. like my Psychic Guard. mmmmm Psychic Guard.

I've also got Traitors in the works.

A Catachan style list, Tanith list, Cadian List, Mordians, Valhallans, Vostroyans, Elyisians and the list just goes on and on.

x-esiv-4c
08-05-2009, 17:15
You said you didnt lose in the last 6 games you played. However you state that you W/T/L is 5/0/1.

Captain Micha
08-05-2009, 17:18
He probably does his W/L/D record like mine. Win first, loss second, draw third.

MrMojoZ
08-05-2009, 17:18
How exactly are they boring?
The amount of lists you can take with this dex is insane that are mechanically competitive. And they are can be quite flavorful too. like my Psychic Guard. mmmmm Psychic Guard.


If you ignore all the new options and pine for the missing doctrines (that alot of can re-porduced with vets anyway), you can easily talk your self into thinking the codex is boring. I don't know why anyone would want to do this, but for some folks change=always bad.

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 17:22
You said you didnt lose in the last 6 games you played. However you state that you W/T/L is 5/0/1.
Well, my bad... should have said 6/0/1, and the 1 I lost was a 2v2 with a Tyranid partner ;) so I'm not sure it counts as a loss...


for some folks change=always bad.
There's a truth, but not in my case... I was exceptionally exited by the new codex the first few games, then it wen't downhill from there. I really love the Ork codex, and I find the new marines pretty nice as well, but then again maybe it's just because IG has been my baby for so long.

I guess another part of why I find it boring is, that I liked the whole idea of basic infantry with multiple roles... IG became what I feared... non descript units with non descript tanks, and also the fact that my 2.000 dollar Blue Table Painting army detachment became mostly obsolete (though I could now use their Valkyries without playing apocalypse or opponent permission was nice for a while), figured into the decision to quit them.

I guess the whole discussion here is, that I don't play to win, strange as it may sound I'd much rather loose a great game than table my opponent. I like writing fluff for every unit I put on the table, and it just doesn't feel the same when those units are so much alike. I'm a sucker for the underdog, and there is one unit in the new codex I really like... Al'Raheem, because charging him into chaos lords and instant killing them against all odds is so much fun.

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 17:33
That counts as two losses. Guard with allied Nids and you lose? Pfff...;)

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 17:41
That counts as two losses. Guard with allied Nids and you lose? Pfff...;)
:cries: that really hurt! ah kidding, it was a great game though as I pretty much took on twice my amount of points as my partner was... less than accomplished as a player :)

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 17:53
@Lamoron: It happens.

I somehow understand that "underdog" thing. I have one going, too, that's why I play the Guard, that's why I play Dark Eldar and that's why I play Dogs of War: other people don't/didn't. The new Guard codex will change that, at least for a while; a new DE codex will very much change that, and DoW are so off the radar that they probably won't be redone ever and I will have to shape them into one of those lame Empire armies. So in that way, I get cheated 3 times in the next few years. ^^.

Still, I like having a stronger codex. Keeps the bad players from masking their inability by referring to the weak book. /smugness. :D

MacMortal
08-05-2009, 19:18
I thank this is on of the best codex's that GW did. Yeah you can tank 9 Tanks, 9 hellhound, and 9 others thing now, but it is really unrealistic to take them all the points would be in sanely out there. So you aren't going to see everything that everone is saying you can have on the battlefield. Most people play around 1500-2000pts and the squadren rule tones it down too. I think this codex is the most balance one so far.

Lamoron
08-05-2009, 19:52
There is no rule that you have to base Valks a certain way. I've seen them "based" with feet as if they have landed. In fact, that is always how I've seen them based. This is perfectly legit, and commonplace.
Personally, I like my Vendetta with a 25" flier pole idea (definatly not done it, as I like my teeth). Immunity to 24" range weapons, as you draw range to the hull and not the base... It's up there with the Telescopic wrecking ball, and the 23" elongated base for a melee monster.

Drawback ofcourse is, that a guy wielding a poking stick can assault it's base instead, but still... more "clever" tricks to the book of "getting your teef pounded in by opponents".

Toe Cutter
08-05-2009, 20:00
@Lamoron. Because your signature almost made me cry (guard players should never foresake the guard. It just shouldn't happen) couldn't you just come to an agreement with your regular opponents that you can play your stuff using the old codex/IA books.

I'd play you. Firstly I like guard on guard and secondly it'd be an interesting old codex vs new codex experiment.

Wintermute
08-05-2009, 20:03
I've deleted a number of posts on this thread because they either

a) breached WarSeer's Forum rules
b) contained quotes from posts have been deleted for breaching WarSeer's Forum rules.

I hope I do not have to delete any more posts on this thread.

Wintermute

Vaktathi
13-05-2009, 08:32
HEAVY 20 STR 5.... I guess you aren't seeing the devastation of this, including against MEQs.

Even with no AP, two Punishers with all HB upgrades will kill a seven marine squad per turn (58 STR 5 shots, 29 hit, 20 wound, 7 die). For even better results, you can put Pask in one of them for +1 BS, and make them more killy.

There is nothing in the game that gets Heavy 20, apart from Apocalypse Legendaries. It's just overkill. 7 marines a turn...wooo! for what, 420pts? And only if they are within 24"?

2 basic triple HB LRBT's will generally net you much better results and (for all intents) infinite range, for 80pts less.

the Punisher is hype, nothing more. Spend 35pts more for an executioner, swap out all the HB's, the stubber, and the overhyped heavy 20 gun and slap in 2 plasma cannons, a 3 shot plasma cannon main turret weapon, and a lascannon, and you've got a far more effective anti-infantry weapon that is a threat to a much larger variety of targets as well.

Plebian
13-05-2009, 08:43
Honestly, I'm going to stick with the vanilla and the demolisher. All the shiny new ones seem to be more hype than anything else. I will be very surprised if any of them out preforms old reliable.

Bloodknight
13-05-2009, 08:55
The Executioner is pretty good, and IMHO outperforms the standard Russ, but then it should, it's almost 40% more expensive; the Exterminator is also a pretty flexible beast that I like. I can't really find a use for the Eradicator, though (too situational), and the Punisher is just awful.

StefDa
13-05-2009, 09:59
To the guy who leaves medics at home: They're *********** awesome!

StefDa
13-05-2009, 10:14
The Executioner is pretty good, and IMHO outperforms the standard Russ, but then it should, it's almost 40% more expensive; the Exterminator is also a pretty flexible beast that I like. I can't really find a use for the Eradicator, though (too situational), and the Punisher is just awful.

The Punisher is awesome. Had my first new Guard game last night vs Black Templars. Heavy 20 is incredible, especially coupled with three heavy bolters and a heavy stubber for a total of 32 shots. 33 once if you count a hunter-killer missile.

I'm converting two.

Lamoron
13-05-2009, 10:45
Sooo... you take the two arguably worst options in the codex, and both are awesome despite all statistics and everyone elses experience? do your dice all come up 4+? ;)

Your punisher should kill roughly 3.5 MEQ a turn, within 24", and is powerless against armor 12. This is actually sub par against MEQ when compared to an equal amount of points in shoota boyz (doing 3.88 kills), or even guardsmen with Lasguns within rapidfire range or with orders (Doing 4.66 with 2 shots, 7 with 3 each).

There's two reasons to take Punishers... Monstrous creatures (if you bring pask) and modelling opportunities... battlefield performance is not one of them.

maze ironheart
13-05-2009, 10:47
We have more options...
We lost other options..

We can take more leman russes etc
Leman russes etc cost more

We have orders..
We lost doctrines

Its a good book, few things i dislike, but those are the things getting changed for everyone so its no big deal. (pos 15 pt extra armor)

Yeah more leman russes just we chaos need oh and whats this strength 8 AP3 charges so we get badly nuked.

Khornies & milk
13-05-2009, 10:53
Sooo... you take the two arguably worst options in the codex, and both are awesome despite all statistics and everyone elses experience? do your dice all come up 4+? ;)

I didn't know this was a Tactica Thread...you know, where everything that doesn't come out on top after Mathhammer has been applied and analysed to 0.1mm of movement etc.

Some gamers like to take models that they think is going to be fun to play with and will be nice in their overall collection.

Lamoron
13-05-2009, 10:56
I didn't know this was a Tactica Thread...you know, where everything that doesn't come out on top after Mathhammer has been applied and analysed to 0.1mm of movement etc.

Some gamers like to take models that they think is going to be fun to play with and will be nice in their overall collection.
But that's not what he says... he says they're awesome and he want's to convert two of them. That pretty much tells me has has none, and hence is referring to the game performance ;) I've got nothing against stupid units, and underperforming ones, but stating that they are awesome in performance = wrong :rolleyes:

DaSpaceAsians
13-05-2009, 11:49
After reading the codex for the last few days, I have come to the following conclusion.
It's amazing. There's alot of good options and a lot of possible lists. The special characters are well designed and are all viable. The only thing I don't like is the Vanquisher loosing blast and range since it's range was a psycological effect against some foes and the choice of shot simply made it the best Imperial Guard tank in my mind. However, the gain of AP is quite good since I have friends that just love termies.

Captain Micha
13-05-2009, 13:19
The Nova Russ promises to be quite good against everything that isn't Smurfy.

No cover saves and ap4? can we say I sense Dead Eldar, Tau and Orks in the near future?

CEO Kasen
13-05-2009, 18:28
In other delights, I'm actually appreciative of 5-fire-point Chimeras that no longer count as Open-Topped when you fire non-Lasguns. For 155 you can get a mounted Veteran team tossing out 3 Meltaguns at BS4, in addition to the vehicle's own Multilaser and Heavy Bolter able to fire at something >else.< Also it can take Objectives. And since everyone will be shooting at your Valkyrie...

unclejimbo827
13-05-2009, 18:57
3.5 MEQs a turn for 200 points is sick.

Assuming a game lasts 5 turns and you do absolutely NOTHING to the Punisher, not even stun it, it will statistically kill about 260 pts in MEQs for 200 points. Do you see what that means? In just about the best case scenario, the punisher comes out roughly even. Big *********** deal.

Durath
13-05-2009, 18:57
Sooo... you take the two arguably worst options in the codex, and both are awesome despite all statistics and everyone elses experience? do your dice all come up 4+? ;)

Your punisher should kill roughly 3.5 MEQ a turn, within 24", and is powerless against armor 12. This is actually sub par against MEQ when compared to an equal amount of points in shoota boyz (doing 3.88 kills), or even guardsmen with Lasguns within rapidfire range or with orders (Doing 4.66 with 2 shots, 7 with 3 each).

There's two reasons to take Punishers... Monstrous creatures (if you bring pask) and modelling opportunities... battlefield performance is not one of them.

Someone else had brought up rapid fire already. Your Lasguns and Boyz can't get those kinds of wounds at range 24". Also, the Punisher is immune to small arms fire (STR 7 or less) from the front. The boyz and IG aren't.

And of course I don't roll 4+ on all my rolls. But the volume of shots on this tank is overwhelming. The slightest bit good luck and you can produce more wounds per unit than any single shooting/non-CC unit in the game. Even without luck, you can kill 3.5 MEQs a turn at range 24" which despite the naysaying, is huge.


The Punisher is awesome. Had my first new Guard game last night vs Black Templars. Heavy 20 is incredible, especially coupled with three heavy bolters and a heavy stubber for a total of 32 shots. 33 once if you count a hunter-killer missile.

Yup, an AV 14 tank pumping out that kind of fire is an incredible anti-infantry platform. I stand by my analysis of it.

Captain Micha
13-05-2009, 18:59
Normal Russ will still put more wounds on a target than the Punisher, and with the pt cost difference you -will- have sponsons on a Russ.

Normal Russ, Plas Cannon Sponsons = bunch of dead marines. For the same pt cost just about as a Punisher.

It's also far more useful against vehicles, and large horde squads, as well as more useful against Terminators and other members of the 2+ club, as well as being more useful against Multiwound models.

Your analysis fails to consider that naked the thing is close to 200 points and that will easily give you a far better equipped Vanilla Russ which is better suited to taking out everything anyway. A naked Russ is on par with a Punisher, for 30 pts cheaper. those 30 points almost buys you the most expensive sponson upgrade for the Russ, which make the normal russ one of the Go Tos for Versatile at that pt cost level.

Durath
13-05-2009, 19:04
Normal Russ will still put more wounds on a target than the Punisher, and with the pt cost difference you -will- have sponsons on a Russ.

Normal Russ, Plas Cannon Sponsons = bunch of dead marines.

Lets keep this in the realm of tournament play...

Which will do more against Orks and Eldar? Normal Russ or Punisher? Punisher of course.

MEQs aren't the best target for this tank, but MEQs are as tough as a Troops choice as you get!

So bearing that out, you CAN bring better Lemans for killing MEQs, but the Puinisher will mop the floor with non-MEQs and is STILL effective against MEQs too. So if you are designing a "bring on all comers" force for a tournament, you'd be doing yourself a huge disadvantage to not bring at least one of these if not two or more (points permitting).

{EDIT} I've never claimed this tank was the uber-MEQ killer... only that it's potential for total wounds from shooting (MEQ or Non-MEQ) exceeds anything in the game.

SPYDER68
13-05-2009, 19:07
Lets keep this in the realm of tournament play...

Which will do more against Orks and Eldar? Normal Russ or Punisher? Punisher of course.

MEQs aren't the best target for this tank, but MEQs are as tough as a Troops choice as you get!

So bearing that out, you CAN bring better Lemans for killing MEQs, but the Puinisher will mop the floor with non-MEQs and is STILL effective against MEQs too. So if you are designing a "bring on all comers" force for a tournament, you'd be doing yourself a huge disadvantage to not bring at least one of these if not two or more (points permitting).

For the cost i would rather take a cheap 170 pt tank that tossse out 3x heavy bolter shots and a pie plate that can insta kill Nob bikers over a Punisher that has 32 shots with heavy bolters, 15.5 should hit then you haft to roll a 3+ to wound base orks or 4+ for nob bikers and vs nob bikers they get duel saves vs you and the damage a punisher will infilict will be nill.

Not so much an all comer tank when you rely on somone failing multiple saves over a large template that can insta kill most troops.

unclejimbo827
13-05-2009, 19:07
{EDIT} I've never claimed this tank was the uber-MEQ killer... only that it's potential for total wounds from shooting (MEQ or Non-MEQ) exceeds anything in the game.

So you're arguing that rolling well can give someone a huge advantage. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? That's the point of the game!

SPYDER68
13-05-2009, 19:09
So you're arguing that rolling well can give someone a huge advantage. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? That's the point of the game!

Exaclty..

If we were going off potential...

A battle tank can kill 10 marines a shot if they were close and i rolled good..

Captain Micha
13-05-2009, 19:13
Lets keep this in the realm of tournament play...

Which will do more against Orks and Eldar? Normal Russ or Punisher? Punisher of course.

MEQs aren't the best target for this tank, but MEQs are as tough as a Troops choice as you get!

So bearing that out, you CAN bring better Lemans for killing MEQs, but the Puinisher will mop the floor with non-MEQs and is STILL effective against MEQs too. So if you are designing a "bring on all comers" force for a tournament, you'd be doing yourself a huge disadvantage to not bring at least one of these if not two or more (points permitting).

{EDIT} I've never claimed this tank was the uber-MEQ killer... only that it's potential for total wounds from shooting (MEQ or Non-MEQ) exceeds anything in the game.

Actually, even then the Punisher Loses out. Once more you have a Str 8 Ap3 weapon which makes Scorpions Cry at Night. Can rape some banshees. etc. Also since it's far more likely to wound successfully than the punisher would Ordnance being Pinning comes into play which can further stall enemy momentum.

All of the weapon systems can be used effectively against any Serpents, Hammerheads, Crisis Suits you name it it can pop it, Warwalkers/ vehicles of your choice efficiently. There's nothing in the game short of a monolith vehicle wise that isn't seriously threatened by a Hb, Russ with Plas Cannons. If I wanted to load up with a Lascannon to punctuate it, it gets even better for a meager 15 pts bringing me up to 205 for a tank which is much much much better than that 180 pt piece of junk.

Against pure horde the Battle Cannon is also capable of destroying more targets than the Punisher is (remember you have to hit with those 20 shots. Even if you hit with 10, I'm pretty much gauranteed a 10 models dead or more with my tank thanks to all the Blast Weapons being thrown out there).

Also unlike the punisher if I miss with my Blaster Russ, there's a good chance I'm still going to do damage to something else in the enemy army depending on where I put my salvo that turn. Where as the punisher? if you miss 15 shots? Nothing. That's a whole lot of points for Nothing on a Miss.

There's nothing that the Punisher does better other than shoot at MCs. That's it. Just MCs. So yeah if you are playing Tyranid, take a Punisher. That's about all it's good for next to a Vanilla Russ with Sponsons.

Durath
13-05-2009, 19:19
So you're arguing that rolling well can give someone a huge advantage. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? That's the point of the game!

/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.

Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.

Enjoy this thread.

Captain Micha
13-05-2009, 19:22
Except that it's not the best. Blaster Russ which many people are scared to field because of point costs is a far better model (not hard to do considering Vanilla Russ equals the Punisher )

Blaster Russ is better against -everything but MCs- actually all of the Russ variants are.

At first you tried to say "it's best for killing marines and everything!" and now you've changed your tune to "It's better as an all rounder!" which is equally demonstrably false as your first statement about the Punisher.

I'll take Blaster Russ long before Punisher (as in the guy using it is being punished ). Every time.

Melta Pants
13-05-2009, 19:25
I won my first game with them last night at 2500, fielding 3 MBTs in a squadron, 2 Basilisks in a Squadron, a Demolisher and Exterminator in Squadron (not my preferred deployment for these two, but wanted those bassies in the list), as well as two Master's of Ordnance. 8 Pie plates a turn (plus the one shot from Sly for good measure) pretty much crushed my opponent's hopes at achieving victory, the best he could aim for was eradicating my infantry and getting the draw. Sadly for him, it didn't pan out.

I love the new book. At 2000 and up, I cannot recommend two Company command squads enough. I took two Comp Commands in barebones chimeras with MoO's, Astro, and Fleet Liason. It's pricey, but it's hard to argue with two drunken basilisk shots, -2 to enemy reserves, +2 to mine, and extra orders so that I don't even need to worry about Platoon Comms.

Next game I will probably Drop the basilisks to get in more infantry, because even though I had 80 dogfaces on the board, it wasn't really enough. A bad round could have seen me scrambling to take objectives with only a handful of soldiers.

SPYDER68
13-05-2009, 19:27
/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.

Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.

Enjoy this thread.

The chance of producing 29+ wounds out of 35 shot possible using BS 3 isnt even close to likely.

Your going to be lucky to produce 20+ wounds.
and more realistic with 10-15 wounds.

Vaktathi
13-05-2009, 19:47
/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.

Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.


The chances of producing 29 wounds are approaching the odds of infinity, It's not going to happen.

Against Orks, without a stubber, you'll cause 9.66 wounds on average from 29 shots. If they get a cover save, about 5. Against SM's you'll average about 3 kills.

3.22 kills. At 24". If you were stationary.

I'll save myself the 30pts and take a battlecannon instead thank you.

Melta Pants
13-05-2009, 19:52
The Punisher looks cool and all, and I might try one with Pask one day for giggles, but MBTs are better all-comers and are cheaper, while Eradicators just make the Punisher look silly. A S6 AP4 Large blast that ignores cover? And I can slap on the HB side sponsons and it would only then cost the SAME as a barebones Punisher?

Yeah, leave the Heavy 20 at home.

doomspittle
13-05-2009, 20:19
[QUOTE=Melta Pants;3571120]I won my first game with them last night at 2500, fielding 3 MBTs in a squadron, 2 Basilisks in a Squadron, a Demolisher and Exterminator in Squadron (not my preferred deployment for these two, but wanted those bassies in the list), as well as two Master's of Ordnance. 8 Pie plates a turn (plus the one shot from Sly for good measure) pretty much crushed my opponent's hopes at achieving victory, the best he could aim for was eradicating my infantry and getting the draw. Sadly for him, it didn't pan out.

I love the new book. At 2000 and up, I cannot recommend two Company command squads enough. I took two Comp Commands in barebones chimeras with MoO's, Astro, and Fleet Liason. It's pricey, but it's hard to argue with two drunken basilisk shots, -2 to enemy reserves, +2 to mine, and extra orders so that I don't even need to worry about Platoon Comms.

Next game I will probably Drop the basilisks to get in more infantry, because even though I had 80 dogfaces on the board, it wasn't really enough. A bad round could have seen me scrambling to take objectives with only a handful of soldiers.[/QUOTE

BET your opponent had fun .

decker_cky
13-05-2009, 20:26
The chance of producing 29+ wounds out of 35 shot possible using BS 3 isnt even close to likely.

Your going to be lucky to produce 20+ wounds.
and more realistic with 10-15 wounds.

What? Why wouldn't you consider the 0.000000000000000002788215276476% chance that a punisher produces 29 wounds against guardians, guardsmen or ork boyz to be likely? Why ever not? ;)

The one place the punisher is probably better against infantry than a battlecannon is shooting in cover....but the nova cannon is better, longer range and cheaper at that. Monstrous creatures are the other advantage, but without Pask it isn't much of an advantage, and with Pask you need to stay immobile within a 24" range, which will shorten his livelyhood considerably.

Melta Pants
13-05-2009, 20:42
BET your opponent had fun .

He and I always have great games, he is a good friend of mine. He said he didn't concede turn 2 cause he knew I wanted to at least play a full game with the new dex, but this is only like the second game I've ever actually beaten him, and he's slaughtered me pretty badly in the past (and I never conceded to him, I like to play my games to their awful, final conclusions). So it's all good.

Xandros
13-05-2009, 20:58
The chances of producing 29 wounds are approaching the odds of infinity, It's not going to happen.


Does that mean that if it does happen it will produce a singularity?

We got a Leman Russ shooting vortex missiles here!

MrMojoZ
13-05-2009, 20:58
/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.

Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.

Enjoy this thread.

The best AV in the game can only glance AV12. Right. This guy is trolling?

StefDa
13-05-2009, 20:59
/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.

Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.

Enjoy this thread.


I'm with you on this one :) Apparantly we aren't allowed our own opinions :P Guess 40k isn't about having fun with your best friends! :D Haha.

Good night,
Steffen.

PS: I wouldn't want to be punished for liking something which isn't in the top league :)

Toe Cutter
13-05-2009, 21:02
Arg! Why! Whhhhhyyyy!



Someone else had brought up rapid fire already. Your Lasguns and Boyz can't get those kinds of wounds at range 24". Also, the Punisher is immune to small arms fire (STR 7 or less) from the front. The boyz and IG aren't.

You're wrong you know. For 200pts (less than a punisher with heavy bolter sponsons) you can get four basic squads of guardsmen. If you combine their squads this gives you forty guardsmen that with the front rank fire second rank fire order can throw out 80 shots to 24" and 120 shots to 12". If you put your Tau firewarrior squad in a devilfish that gives them a 6" move, a 2" disembark and a 12" rapid fire range for exactly the same number of shots, with a better AP for only 4" less range. If you put ten dire avengers with an exarch with blade storm in a wave serpent you can then move the serpent 12", disembark 2" and fire to 12" for a grand total of 30 shots(?) with 2" further range, one less strength and a better AP than the punisher. The beauty of these options is that while they aren't immune to small arms fire (though you could argue the fire warriors and the dire avengers in their transports are) they very much are immune to AT weaponry. Since you appear to like talking about potential, one lascannon has the potential to silence the punisher and keep it silenced for the entire game. And it can do it from outside of the punishers effective range. Multi meltas and meltaguns can do the job more reliably but have to start either just on or within the range of the punisher. The same is true of units attempting to punch it to death (quite easy with krak grenades or better) unless they outflank. If you so much as mention the math hammer likelihood of any of the above weapons/options actually doing anything to the tank then I'll quite happily bury you in reams of math hammer on how the punisher is a bad tank but as you seem keen to talk about potentials of weapons rather than actual probabilities of weapons then we'll steer away from that for now.



And of course I don't roll 4+ on all my rolls. But the volume of shots on this tank is overwhelming. The slightest bit good luck and you can produce more wounds per unit than any single shooting/non-CC unit in the game. Even without luck, you can kill 3.5 MEQs a turn at range 24" which despite the naysaying, is huge.

The volume of shots from this tank is not overwhelming. To go back to the equivalent number of guardsmen argument, forty guardsmen have the potential of firing 80 shots to 24" when stationery (the punisher can do the same when moving 6" - clearly the gaping hole in my logic...). So you're saying that if you roll well you can produce more wounds? Yes, yes you can. And my 40 guardsmen will trump your 'weight of fire wins the day' argument by throwing out four times as many shots as your punisher tank thus having four times the chance of having 'the slightest bit of good luck'. Killing 3.5 MEQs a turn at range 24" is huge? Surely my demolisher should have been banned years ago in that case. Even more so now that I can fire its demolisher cannon and its plasma cannon sponsons at the same time. If it only killed 3.5 MEQs a turn with that pay load I think I'd cry.



Yup, an AV 14 tank pumping out that kind of fire is an incredible anti-infantry platform. I stand by my analysis of it.

Stand by it all you like. Just don't expect any of us to agree with you. No matter how many times you say the same thing.


Lets keep this in the realm of tournament play...

Just out of mild interest, why would you want to keep it in the realm of tournament play? The realm of tournament play is surely the realm of the ruthless and unforgiving math hammer (not somewhere that sounds a great deal of fun when described like that). The land of math hammer is not somewhere this tank wants to be.



Which will do more against Orks and Eldar? Normal Russ or Punisher? Punisher of course.

The normal russ. Every day of the week and twice on sundays. They don't get saves against the normal russ unless they're in cover. They can't stay away from the normal russ in their fast transports (and still play a part in the game) because of the range of the battle cannon. The normal russ can pop their transports and have the range to do so at a time when the contents of those transports are far enough away to not be a threat.



MEQs aren't the best target for this tank, but MEQs are as tough as a Troops choice as you get!

Whats your point with this bit? MEQs are hard to kill and the punisher does it badly? Um. Yes. We know. We've been telling you this all along. The battle cannon on the other hand will kill MEQs and GEQs with equal ease. It'll also have a good go at transports and other light skimmers. The one unit type that the punisher might feasibly out shine the russ against is the monstrous creature type unit. As Captain Micha has pointed out, for similar points you can give the normal russ plasma cannon sponsons and a lascannon and make it better than the punisher at killing even these.



So bearing that out, you CAN bring better Lemans for killing MEQs, but the Puinisher will mop the floor with non-MEQs and is STILL effective against MEQs too. So if you are designing a "bring on all comers" force for a tournament, you'd be doing yourself a huge disadvantage to not bring at least one of these if not two or more (points permitting).

Equally you can take the standard battle tank and it will be more effective against MEQs, more effective against GEQs and more effective against transports. It will do all of this for cheaper and from further away. If you give it plasma cannons for similar points cost to the punisher and heavy bolter load out then it will also kill terminator equivalents with a lot more efficacy than the punisher.



{EDIT} I've never claimed this tank was the uber-MEQ killer... only that it's potential for total wounds from shooting (MEQ or Non-MEQ) exceeds anything in the game.

Mr Bims put it most elloquently and I sigged him for it. Unfortunately his comment was deemd offensive which is fair enough. Its potential for wounds does not exceed anything in the game (see guardsmen, dire avengers and fire warriors examples above). Rating things on based on their potential is a cross between saying that weight of fire wins always (it doesn't) and saying that if you roll better dice then you'll get better wounds. Yes it has the potential to hit with all of its twenty nine shots but then my forty guardsmen shooting eighty times out of cover to a range of 24" have the potential to kill off the entire deathwing (one hundred terminators) before they even make combat. When they do it I'll personally go to the shops and buy two punishers. I'll paint one up myself, play it in all of the games I ever play with my guard ever again and I'll even name it 'potential for greatness' in you honour. The second model will be hand delivered to you along with a life times supply of beer and a five thousand word essay on why I was wrong and how the hell I'm going to explain to the lion, on his return, how I managed to kill off his entire deathwing with a platoon of lasuns.


/facepalm

This is not what I'm saying at all... I give up. I'm not going over all this again.


thats not a legally binding promise perchance?



Those of you saying the Punisher isn't worth it's points can't see that a single unit that could produce 29+ wounds from shooting, is immune to anti-infantry fire, and has the best AV in the game isn't awesome, and that's just that. There's no point in going any further.

The leman russ chassis is awesome, you'll get no arguments from me on that score and at least cos it has the assault tank variant armour it can't be punched to death. However I have to disagree and say that a tank that has such short range and that relies on both BS3 to hit within that short range and your opponent failing his armour saves (the orks have the potential to save all wounds caused against them after all) is a white elephant and while I wouldn't go as far as to say it should be avoided, I most certainly would say that its utility is very situational.



Enjoy this thread.

Thank you. I am sorry for being somewhat rude but your contributions to this thread have become decidedly tiresome reading

Maren
13-05-2009, 21:04
"And don't start talking about "COULD hit everything...". The odds of hitting and wounding with all those shots is so astronomical it's not even worth talking about. Have you ever flipped a coin 29 times and had it come Heads-up every time? " - MrBims

Yes I have, or close to at least. Once I assaulted a firewarrior squad with my 8 stormboys. Thats 32 hits hitting on 3s. I only hit with 4. Thats 28 dice with only 1s & 2s. I calculated that and the chance of that happening is like 0.1 x 10^14. I screamed and cried like a little girl while his über warriors bitchslapped my stormboys like the sissies they obviously were.
Remember tzeenetch gives and tzeenetch taketh away....

SPYDER68
13-05-2009, 21:06
I'm with you on this one :) Apparantly we aren't allowed our own opinions :P Guess 40k isn't about having fun with your best friends! :D Haha.

Good night,
Steffen.

PS: I wouldn't want to be punished for liking something which isn't in the top league :)

The tank looks fun to use.. and it will be fun to use..

All we said was.. there is basically no chance that tank is going to put out 29 wounds like he was saying.. and claiming it the best tank in the book basically.

everyone has their own openion.. Then Theoryhammer comes into play on if the unit is statistically good, then it comes into play if it gets its points back in games throu your playstyle and various opponets.

MrMojoZ
13-05-2009, 21:13
I'm with you on this one :) Apparantly we aren't allowed our own opinions :P Guess 40k isn't about having fun with your best friends! :D Haha.

Good night,
Steffen.

PS: I wouldn't want to be punished for liking something which isn't in the top league :)

You agree with horrible logic and poor math because you think the idea of a model is neat? No. You can like something despite the flaws, but the person you are "with" is saying the clearly present flaws don't exist. You haven't read either side of this discussion and it shows.

broxus
13-05-2009, 21:20
Yup, an AV 14 tank pumping out that kind of fire is an incredible anti-infantry platform. I stand by my analysis of it.

You would be the only one who belives it then. I will simply laugh as my predator kills that tank as its pathetic gun bounces off my armor. Or my cheap dreadnaught punches through it for his measly points cost.

Durath
13-05-2009, 21:26
At first you tried to say "it's best for killing marines and everything!" and now you've changed your tune to "It's better as an all rounder!" which is equally demonstrably false as your first statement about the Punisher.

As I said, I'm done arguing the specifics...

But for the record, I NEVER said "it's best for killing marines and everything".

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. This thread has devolved into useless persecution by a few folks unwilling to be open-minded, and the slander is back in full force.

I'm requesting a lock.

SPYDER68
13-05-2009, 21:39
As I said, I'm done arguing the specifics...

But for the record, I NEVER said "it's best for killing marines and everything".

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. This thread has devolved into useless persecution by a few folks unwilling to be open-minded, and the slander is back in full force.

I'm requesting a lock.

People arent Persecuting.... People are just trying to tell you... Punisher will not put out 29 wounds.. there is bascially no chance of that..

All people have been trying to say.. Statsitically.. This tank is not worth its cost compared to others.

But instead.. you assume everyone is out to get you and your openion for stating theirs and what is statistically correct for effectiveness and request the thread locked ?

Sorry but no one was bashing you at all, it was being discussed how the Punisher is actually lacking for what it costs compared to other tanks, yet you somehow got offended, which i seriously doubt anyone has meant to do that here, more so.. giving their openions on why.. they dont like the punisher / why its not that effective, then going bye all that youve said its a great tank, and can put out 29+ wounds.. which isnt possible unless its like a 1 in a million some odd chances.

Its a nice tank yes.. but not statistically points effective.

StefDa
13-05-2009, 21:55
You agree with horrible logic and poor math because you think the idea of a model is neat? No. You can like something despite the flaws, but the person you are "with" is saying the clearly present flaws don't exist. You haven't read either side of this discussion and it shows.

Damn it, you are... I haven't read the discussion!? I have read the entire discussion, because I hate joining a discussion with my own contribute, then being told all my things have already been said.

People like you make me go away from using forums again. Unpleasant person.


Sorry but no one was bashing you at all, it was being discussed how the Punisher is actually lacking for what it costs compared to other tanks, yet you somehow got offended, which i seriously doubt anyone has meant to do that here, more so..effective.

They were a little rude, I think.

Durath
13-05-2009, 21:59
People arent Persecuting.... People are just trying to tell you... Punisher will not put out 29 wounds.. there is bascially no chance of that.

Again, as I've said before, I understand that...

And to paraphrase a post of mine that was deleted (for some reason), there are dynamics of rolling large numbers of dice which allows the "Standard Deviation" (which is generally 5%) of statistical probability to manifest as whole wounds, and gives an edge to this tank.

Again, I've made these arguments before... I'm not going down that path again. At least one person has agreed with me, and they were accused of agreeing with "horrible logic" and "bad math" when there isn't one shred of any proof of my analysis containing either of these. All the evidence against my position is anecdotal, or situationally subjective, has unrelated comparisons, or makes assumptions about my position on this tank. Interestingly that person is the only one whom has stated they've actually used one in a game.

And all I've said is that the tank, which is anti-infantry, is broken by the virtue of having more shots than anything else which is immune to AI fire. You can dice up the statistics any way you want, but a Heavy D20 weapon doesn't exist for a vehicle for any other army outside of Apocalypse.

I've been flamed, repeatedly, from the start, for this viewpoint. When I defended myself, I was further flamed. So, yes, it's become a persecution to me.

decker_cky
13-05-2009, 22:12
Not going to go back and search to much, but haven't all the attacks been attacks at your assertions?

And the standard deviation for a large number of dice argument just means it isn't likely to do much more (or less) than the average number of wounds. When that average is unimpressive, that should tell you the tank is unimpressive.


"And don't start talking about "COULD hit everything...". The odds of hitting and wounding with all those shots is so astronomical it's not even worth talking about. Have you ever flipped a coin 29 times and had it come Heads-up every time? " - MrBims

Yes I have, or close to at least. Once I assaulted a firewarrior squad with my 8 stormboys. Thats 32 hits hitting on 3s. I only hit with 4. Thats 28 dice with only 1s & 2s. I calculated that and the chance of that happening is like 0.1 x 10^14. I screamed and cried like a little girl while his über warriors bitchslapped my stormboys like the sissies they obviously were.
Remember tzeenetch gives and tzeenetch taketh away....

Now...look at this post. By the same argument that "29 shots with a punisher is awesome", stormboyz are a horrible choice because they potentially would lose in assault to fire warriors, which is silly. Look at the average and how variable the results are likely to be with that average. Doesn't need to be perfect math, just look at the general number in a few key situations and compare to the alternatives. For the points, the punisher is horrible at this. It's a fun tank. It has a cool factor to it. It's decent against monstrous creatures. But it would be a hard sell even at 150 pts.

StefDa
13-05-2009, 22:15
Again, I've made these arguments before... I'm not going down that path again. At least one person has agreed with me, and they were accused of agreeing with "horrible logic" and "bad math" when there isn't one shred of any proof of my analysis containing either of these. All the evidence against my position is anecdotal, or situationally subjective, has unrelated comparisons, or makes assumptions about my position on this tank. Interestingly that person is the only one whom has stated they've actually used one in a game.

Why, thanks for defending me when I clearly suck at it myself. Really should have levelled more up in that instead of the "roasting sausages at 03 am when drunk", but oh well. They'll come in handy one day, I tell you!

I played against one of my very best friends, Kenni Hansen, and his Black Templars. He is always a true pleasure to play against. He'll bend or break any rule together with his opponnent as long as it makes for an even more fun game for both of us. He asked me if I wanted to try my Daemons without the Deep Strike thing, if I felt like it, after I complained a little bit about having to deep strike everything, last night.

But oh well, back to the punished Punisher. He hated it and with a laugh said it had to be the most "cheat" in the new IG. The weight of fire it can produce in one turn is staggering (32 shots), and if you've only got one anyway, give it Knight Commander Pask as an upgrade, and make it even more fun ;) He said he already hated it, despite I only got to fire it once or twice (without Pask, it was my first game, so I just tried what I felt like, and it went really well, despite my loss).

I don't play all the uber stuff because they give me an advantage (I don't use Valkyries or Vendettas, for example). I often build my armies around some gut feelings (I used a Punisher and a squad of Storm Troopers yesterday, woot!) and I had the best game I've had in a long while. He even asked me for a rematch soon.


And all I've said is that the tank, which is anti-infantry, is broken by the virtue of having more shots than anything else which is immune to AI fire. You can dice up the statistics any way you want, but a Heavy D20 weapon doesn't exist for a vehicle for any other army outside of Apocalypse.

The more dice you roll, the easier it is to score good results, every gamer knows that ;) Haha. Superstitious bunch, gamers.

Durath
13-05-2009, 22:29
Not going to go back and search to much, but haven't all the attacks been attacks at your assertions?

Let me ask this... why does someone need to "attack" me over something they think is an assertion?

And I can call most of what people "attacked" me with as assertions also.

The point is, I had almost two pages of people bashing my thoughts on this, calling me stupid, asking me what I'm on, etc... so how am I supposed to feel about this sort of treatment? (or in my defense, how should be expected to react?)

StefDa
13-05-2009, 22:35
Nobody should be attacked for their opinions, they're all equally much worth on the Internet (or worthless? :D :D).

I yearn for the day that a discussion with only friendly intentions pops in! Hehe, just joking as always.

Jammybee
13-05-2009, 22:37
1 thing that has me a little irritated:

Leman Russ : Awesome killing machine, mobile firepower and tons of armour.

Predator (Emperor's finest) Cheap pile of crap.

Bloodknight
13-05-2009, 22:45
The Predator is a light to medium tank, and IIRC airdrop capable fluffwise. It suits the SM fighting style more than the slow heavy Russ.

Jammybee
13-05-2009, 22:55
I agree, I just thought it could of done with a bit of boosting instead of just price cutting. It is neither fast or hard hitting.

I like the IG order system. It's a bit slow as people are getting used to it but it should hopefully speed up.

StefDa
13-05-2009, 23:02
Actually, I only issued two orders, both times Bring it Down on my BT opponnent's all-las Predator. I don't think the rest are that useful (with my common setups, at least)

Vaktathi
13-05-2009, 23:43
1 thing that has me a little irritated:

Leman Russ : Awesome killing machine, mobile firepower and tons of armour.

Predator (Emperor's finest) Cheap pile of crap.

The predator there to supplement the incredible power of the Space Marines, not break an enemy by itself. It's a specialist medium/light tank built from a modified APC to provide some mobile heavy weapons fire. It's not a heavy main battle tank that's designed to be an army in and of itself like the Leman Russ.

The Leman Russ is, and always has been, a vastly more powerful and durable tank. To put it in a cold war perspective, the Predator is akin to the M551 Sheridan in role and profile, where the Leman Russ is more akin to the M60 Patton. One's a light support tank that's air droppable and rather fast, another is a heavy main battle tank that is much slower but more heavily armed and armored.

Jayden63
14-05-2009, 00:14
I don't play IG, but the prospect of playing against it scares the crap out of me. It just seems they gained way too many combos that can completely neuter your opposition with no real drawback.

It looks like they are just too easy to tool up to destroy anything, Now in a multi game environment such as a Tourniment they might not have such an easy time about it. But I have yet to see an IG game go past turn 4 when they knew what the other guy was bringing and could create stupidly powerful combos against it.

Vaktathi
14-05-2009, 00:35
IG have always been exceptionally capable at tailoring,and even moreso now. But that's part of the reason why you don't try and play games like that. Play pickup games with all comers lists and the like.

IG showing up to a game where they can tailor their army list is ridiculous, moreso than other armies and typically always has been. If that's the way you are playing the game then it needs to get mixed up.

Eldar? I think I'll bring 9 Hydras, 3 hellhounds, and 100something infantry loaded with autocannons.

Orks? Well here's my 9 Hellhounds and my Ogryns and my massive heavy weapons platoons dudes

Space Marines? Here's my Leman Russ tanks and Vendetta's.



The trick is to play games where both players need to take things to counter everything, so they don't overload on the things to beat up just one army. IG are incredibly good at that.

SPYDER68
14-05-2009, 01:13
IG have always been exceptionally capable at tailoring,and even moreso now. But that's part of the reason why you don't try and play games like that. Play pickup games with all comers lists and the like.

IG showing up to a game where they can tailor their army list is ridiculous, moreso than other armies and typically always has been. If that's the way you are playing the game then it needs to get mixed up.

Eldar? I think I'll bring 9 Hydras, 3 hellhounds, and 100something infantry loaded with autocannons.

Orks? Well here's my 9 Hellhounds and my Ogryns and my massive heavy weapons platoons dudes

Space Marines? Here's my Leman Russ tanks and Vendetta's.



The trick is to play games where both players need to take things to counter everything, so they don't overload on the things to beat up just one army. IG are incredibly good at that.

I wish i could change my list around here per opponet :P

unclejimbo827
14-05-2009, 01:24
Let me ask this... why does someone need to "attack" me over something they think is an assertion?

And I can call most of what people "attacked" me with as assertions also.

The point is, I had almost two pages of people bashing my thoughts on this, calling me stupid, asking me what I'm on, etc... so how am I supposed to feel about this sort of treatment? (or in my defense, how should be expected to react?)

Look, if you have silly opinions, expect to be challenged. That's called 'discussion'.

How are you supposed to feel? Well, you're not really supposed to 'feel' anything because it's just the internet. I mean, if you're genuinely hurt because some dude you've never seen and in all likelihood never will see thinks you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to army men... well, I don't know what to tell you.

AngryAngel
14-05-2009, 06:55
Ok, first off let me say I'm with the "Punisher is not too good mindset "

I also believe if you post on the internet you should get a little bit of a thick skin, as really people don't always treat each other with respect on here. ( Though that is more like they almost never do ) That said, we should make an effort to not insult one another, and even if we disagree handle it with a bit of niceness.

No one is perfect and tempers can flare. I think people need to clam down in this thread and relax a little. Someone thinks the Punisher is insane, fair enough others disagree. Why keep talking about it ? Neither side will change their opinions so its just a waste of time.

I think the executioner is awesome, I'm sure people disagree with me too. ( Though sue me I love all things plasma ). Hey maybe the absolute truth lies somewhere in between.

Hey, we're all just players in this game we love, lets come together as one people.

Avian
14-05-2009, 07:35
Despite warnings it appears that people are unable to lead a reasoned argument. Thread locked.

- The Moderators