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Deadnight
07-05-2009, 22:40
And thus i will pose a query to you.

could a space marine chapter be led by chaplains?

Its an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for a bit. basically im looking for a new army. and i have a ton of SM stuff and i want to do something alittle bit unusual, and a little bit choppy.

So in the course of my mental randomness, i hit on the idea of a fanatically religious SM chapter. i wont bore you with the detailed fluff, but i'll give you the gist of it.

the idea i have first starts with the reading of the emperor's tarot that demands the founding of a new chapter. So to get it off the ground, squads from a dozen or so various chapters are organised as the first battle brothers of this new chapter, they're given gene seed and told to bugger off and do their thing.

Now this chapter faces a fight from the get-go from a badarse chaos raider and they lose their HQ units. now the rest of the lads under the high chaplain an'tiok chase him down, follow him from system to system and get him in the end.

so here is the thing. they chase him down to a place that strongly resembles the crusader states fighting the muslims c.1200. highly religious, highly strung. and anyway the new chapter decides to set up base here. sound plausible?

Now here is the thing. the surviving brothers had served under the chaplains alone for all this time, so when it came to electing a new chapter master, they picked an'tiok. sound plausible again?

the way i see it, it could fit right in with the area they are recruiting from. a highly religious emperor worshipping bunch of lunatics that look to warrior priests to tell them what to do.

in terms of where they are now, my chapter is still really young (less than a millenia) and there are still those who remember an'tiok. in fact, they renamed temselves scions of an'tiok after he got meltagunned to death about 50 years ago.

would that hold up as fluff, or is it a bit out there?

it gets a bit worse though. as i said, its a young chapter, so they are not up to full chapter strength. plus they lost a load of lads in a war 50 years ago. im thinking along the lines of the flesh tearers. 4 companies, with veterans mixed in, and an understrength reserve company. i like the idea of them trying to beef up numbers quick and so they have 2-3 companies of scouts (again, far more than the codex) and quite an unorthodox style of war.

Id go with the blood angels codex to be honest. mainly as i played tau prteviously, i want something choppy now. and assault marines as troops is a good idea. plus i like the idea of devout brothers enraptured in visions of the emperor counting as death company marines. they're kind of a cross between black templars and blood angels.

frothing mad zealots eager to close with their foes and prove their worth and gain glory for a new chapter, mixed with pragmatism due to loe numbers and a very skirmishy nature as they will rely a LOT on scouts. and mobility could also help them in terms of low numbers as they can move and react faster.

so, does it work?
mainly, could a chapter be led by chaplains?
and secondly does the concept hold water?

totgeboren
07-05-2009, 22:48
Sure. My Word Bearers are lead by a Chaplain, and that works fine. :)

Actually they are a kinda "evil twin" to your army, using lots of cultists/daemons to beef up their numbers instead of scouts, but in all other respects they work the same.

And I agree on using the BA codex. Their Chaplains are abit more up to the task of leading an army.

A nice concept, which the Word Bearers have already established as workable. Though they worship darker gods than your loyalist lapdogs of course. :P

Daredhnu
07-05-2009, 22:56
all sounds reasonable enough, afterall the blood ravens have had a librarian as their chapter master i see no reason why a chaplain couldn't fill the same role.
that being said though, you might want to work on how you present your idea, it's a bit rough i'd try to write a little more fluidly(sp).
i know these were just the facts of the background but still.

other than that though i do really like your idea, chaplains are pretty harcore and well lets face it blood angels only make them more hardcore.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
07-05-2009, 23:03
The name An'tiok is a bit heavy-handed, but there's nothing wrong with the rest of it, really. All in all, success.

An'tiok backwards, Koitan, sounds pretty nice, and there reference is still there for those who look. Perhaps?

Col. Tartleton
07-05-2009, 23:08
I could easily envisage three+ chaplains per company. Their could be an Abbot character who leads the company, a preacher who is a regular chaplain, and a recorder who takes the place of the librarian. Then perhaps a few additional chaplains of lower rank per company. Then have a first company in black armor with skull masks made up up veterans on the way to chaplaincy...

It'd be gothic as heck in a good way. Dreadnoughts covered in bone trophies and religious icons. Apothecaries in bird masked helmets Plague Doctor style. Hundreds of scouts with chain swords and bolt pistols wearing medieval armor that is made of carapace.

It'd be a cool move.

atlantis
07-05-2009, 23:13
Sure. My Word Bearers are lead by a Chaplain, and that works fine. :)

Actually they are a kinda "evil twin" to your army, using lots of cultists/daemons to beef up their numbers instead of scouts, but in all other respects they work the same.

And I agree on using the BA codex. Their Chaplains are abit more up to the task of leading an army.

A nice concept, which the Word Bearers have already established as workable. Though they worship darker gods than your loyalist lapdogs of course. :P

i would gree if u want a chaplain to lead the army use BA. i do and i always take a chaplain to lead, and it is currently the best one stat-line wise, and there SC is also very useful and a bargin

librisrouge
07-05-2009, 23:24
I highly recommend going with Black Templars. They fit the fluff of this army very well and still have the older, better, chaplain rules that make those guys monsters. Plus, holy hand grenades.

Also, the only flaw in the fluff I could spot is that a new chapter's veteran/starter company is recruited from their parent chapter, not a bunch of other chapters (especially not a bunch with different gene seed.) I'd say that the veteran company, deploying to rear guard their rookie chapter, was probably cut off and destroyed. This left the chapter to develop on their own, allowing for the wierd divergence.

anarnii
07-05-2009, 23:27
you could convert fantasy empire flagellants to use as scouts.

great concept i really like it, but any reason your not just doing black templars, seeing as you have the who crusade theme?

[SD] Bob Plisskin
07-05-2009, 23:27
My chapter fluff is that they are a highly religeous order and has all the sergeants of the squads be orators. They are the Emperors wrath and strike lighting fast from drop pods and deep striking, there are 2 dreadnoughts that were previously chaplains. They are going to be a very old chapter that has allowed for these changes to their structure to take place.

SimonL
07-05-2009, 23:55
I 2nd Black Templars, as they are Crudsader-inspired anyways. They have;

-Better Chaplains, plus you could use Grimaldus as An'tiok.
-Special Religious Vows
-The Hoy Orb of Antioch (Holy Hand Grenade)

pookie
08-05-2009, 13:17
you stole my idea!!!! ( well you cant have, i only had it last night ) sounds good to me, i 2nd Templars due to them being a Crusade style force who are already religous nutters.

AbyssRaven
08-05-2009, 13:56
you could also use normal SM, using the captain stats or chapter master stats and just paint him up like a chaplain as well.

Also i'd loveto see more of the fluff, want to pm it to me?

As to the company make up, if they are to young i probably wouldn't have veterans. But would have more scouts as well.
You could do a cool command squad theme as well if you take the captain idea mentioned above.

Theme them all as chaplains.
Apothecary: Master of the Fallen
Champion: Something along the lines of Master of Battle Hyms
Standard: Relic Bearer
Veteran 1: Chaplain Advisor
Veteran 2: Chaplain Advisor

if you looked more into SM religion you could find exact names of Hym's and roles for the chaplains.
I think it would be a cool themeing thing for the army

wascloud
08-05-2009, 15:05
I have to say i like the idea a lot, and would go with the BA codex since you want assault marines as troops. A chaplain could definately lead a chapter as far as i'm concerned, and the home world idea is pure gold
good job!
wascloud

Leftenant Gashrog
08-05-2009, 16:14
Then have a first company in black armor with skull masks made up up veterans on the way to chaplaincy...


The problem with that is that black armour and a skull mask is the markings of a full chaplain. In days of yore the marking for trainee chaplains was a black right arm and shoulderpad.

cankingboi
08-05-2009, 21:35
chaplain is more a title than anything so im sure they could be moved around the chapter to perform various positions

Col. Tartleton
08-05-2009, 23:33
They would be full chaplains... oh dear. Just not position holders.

All a chaplain is, is a highly elite fighter who memorizes all the hymns (which all marines should) and carries some leverage in terms of venerability. This is what a veteran is (usually they don't have the duties of chaplain) but in a chapter of chaplains every veteran would be a chaplain of sorts inspiring on their brothers with praise and calling out damnation on their enemies and then applying upwards of 20,000 pounds of foot force (a fifty cal is like 13,000) to their skulls with his bolter shot.

Yes, I looked up what a 20 mm gun can do.

Chaplains: Using Anti Tank Fire arms against conscripts in kevlar vests for Lols since M31...

Imperial Chaplain: "OOOOOORRRRRRRAAAAHHHHHHHH!"

Deadnight
09-05-2009, 20:55
I highly recommend going with Black Templars. They fit the fluff of this army very well and still have the older, better, chaplain rules that make those guys monsters. Plus, holy hand grenades.
.

i will say "no" for two reasons.

(1) Death company. i have this vision of a bunch of guys wearing DA robes inscribed with loads of runes of religious lunacy shooting across the board, frothing at the mouth with zeal, and basically shrugging off anything that goes their ay, such is their zeal.
(2) assault marines as troops. sorry...



Also, the only flaw in the fluff I could spot is that a new chapter's veteran/starter company is recruited from their parent chapter, not a bunch of other chapters (especially not a bunch with different gene seed.) I'd say that the veteran company, deploying to rear guard their rookie chapter, was probably cut off and destroyed. This left the chapter to develop on their own, allowing for the wierd divergence.

hmm. I know of some crusade forces in the fluff that are made up of squads of different companies joined together. I figure one parent chapter having to give 10-20% of its available strength is a bit much. far better to spread the love a bit, plus the advantage is the new chapter has lots of bigger brothers it can come calling to if it falls down and scrapes its knee.



that being said though, you might want to work on how you present your idea, it's a bit rough i'd try to write a little more fluidly(sp).
i know these were just the facts of the background but still.
.

irish + drunk at the time. it happens a lot...:)


As to the company make up, if they are to young i probably wouldn't have veterans. But would have more scouts as well.
You could do a cool command squad theme as well if you take the captain idea mentioned above.

its a bit weird in term of make up.
as i said, its 4 regular companies, with veterans (or else more experienced brethren) mixed in, plus one under strength reserve company.
then you've got about 3 companies of scouts. mainly because they're trying to buff up their numbers.

in terms of battle tactics, they're a new chapter and have little in the way of awesome relics and really heavy stuff. i figure their vehicle armoury is pretty limited -probably just a land raider or two (im sorry, SM tanks just dont 'feel' right to me) and some few ehinos/razorbacks. and a few thunderhawks dreadnoughts and terminator suits would be in scant supply. as an advantage though, each one can have its own name and history, rather than "generic ultramarine dreadnought no.9"

so anyways you've got a weird kind of battlefield ethos. you've got rabidly fanatical marines who want to (a) tear their foes apart with their bare hands (which lends itself very heavily to assault marines, and bikers) and (b) you have a limited number of marines who have to make every marine count, so things that buff mobility (again, bikes and jump packs) will be heavily favoured. and (c) they are a young chapter desperately eager to prove themselves to the other, older ones. and (d) they're some way prgmatic despite all the fanaticism. as much as they'd love to charge forward headlong, they cant afford it in terms of numbers and basically throwing away their future.
nacking all this up, they'd rely far more heavily on scouts than other marines. like, their scouts would actually hold part of the battleline rather than support, as most marine scouts operate. i figutre their scouts would be infamous for their belligerence, and desire to get stuck in there, and would probably have more battle experience than a lot of their peers.


Also i'd loveto see more of the fluff, want to pm it to me?
sure thing. when i get it written, i'll send it your way. its not there at the moment as i've a lot of things on my plate at the moment.

hazmiter
09-01-2012, 11:08
Good idea, very much like it.
Hq, astorath the grim = more chance to red thirst, and more squads of death company.
Hq, reclusiarch, 2nd in command, as astorath can be renamed.
2 command squads, these are the veterens of the small 1st company.

Elites, chaplain, chaplain, 3 sanguine priests.
* young chapter, and little or no veterens, means little access to terminator armour, except in the case of the sanguine priests and chaplains*.

Troops. 4 assault squads, 1 jpack death company w lemartes, 1 death company in rhino.

Fast. 1 land speeder squadron of 3, 1 vanguard squad ( veterens ), last is up to you.
Heavy. Dreadnoughts.

Sound ok?
Can modify as needed.

shadowhawk2008
09-01-2012, 11:44
Its a background question, not an army list one. And you can't double up SCs

MajorWesJanson
09-01-2012, 12:15
Theme them all as chaplains.
Apothecary: Master of the Fallen
Champion: Something along the lines of Master of Battle Hyms
Standard: Relic Bearer
Veteran 1: Chaplain Advisor
Veteran 2: Chaplain Advisor


Apothecary as something like Guardian of Purity maybe?
Champion is more combat oriented than a hymnkeeper (give that role to one of the advisors?) so why not Protector of the Faith

hazmiter
09-01-2012, 12:17
Renaming astorath is legal, taking 2 is not.
Re reclusiarch after him, it a reclusiarch.
Army list was to give a guide, as she has helped me with the same.

Sai-Lauren
09-01-2012, 14:55
They would be full chaplains... oh dear. Just not position holders.

All a chaplain is, is a highly elite fighter who memorizes all the hymns (which all marines should) and carries some leverage in terms of venerability. This is what a veteran is (usually they don't have the duties of chaplain) but in a chapter of chaplains every veteran would be a chaplain of sorts inspiring on their brothers with praise and calling out damnation on their enemies and then applying upwards of 20,000 pounds of foot force (a fifty cal is like 13,000) to their skulls with his bolter shot.

Actually, a Chaplain is a lot more than that - they're the religious and psychological heart of the chapter, a combination of the inspiring commissar (they originally appeared in a WD article with Commissars :)) and righteous fury priest.

They're also the confessors - those that the normal Marines answer to if they deviate from expected discipline, or if parts of their indoctrination start to slip.

Of all the specialisms within a chapter, IMO, Chaplains are probably the most likely to take a senior command role, and I'm kind of surprised there's not been an official chapter that's gone that way. You'd have to say that they've gone through normal command style ranks so that they've got the tactical/ strategic knowledge, and the Chaplains are the company/ chapter commanders, but even so, you're looking at a very "blood and thunder" type army, without much subtlety.

So long as you can justify that divergence from the Codex, you should be good to go.

Beaviz81
09-01-2012, 15:13
A really religious and pious group would likely have Chaplains as Chapter Masters, it's all in the design of the group. I guess I would in your case create a mirror-universe Word Bearers, just damn devout to the Emperor. Or maybe the Black Templars sort of can do that (speculation, so don't rip my head off).

Captain Collius
09-01-2012, 16:48
the guardians of the covenant(DA successor) consider themselves to be warrior monks maybe you could find some ideas there or use blacktempler vets or da vets for the long flowing robes they give the right feel.

bruceadsero
10-01-2012, 05:22
Aren't the Black Templar on Armageddon led by their reclusiarch in Heleserach?