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w00tm0ng3r
08-05-2009, 04:44
So just how powerful is an Avatar anyway? They're supposed to be the Eldar's most powerful warriors, even better than the phoenix lords, but I've just realized that I've never actually read a single piece of fluff where an Avatar solo-ed anything big and actually won. Avatar vs Fulgrim = Avatar loses, Avatar vs Calgar = Avatar loses, Avatar vs Keeper of Secrets (in that one short story where one KoS takes out an entire craftworld...) = Avatar loses, Avatar vs partially formed Daemon Prince in Dawn of War (book) = Avatar loses (he won but he was getting schooled until a farseer came to save him), and Avatar vs nids on Iyanden... well we all know how well that went until Yriel came and saved the day. Is there any fluff where an Avatar actually wins? The only thing I can think of is the Dawn of War game where an Avatar can handily solo a bloodthirster

Avatars are supposed to be the best the Eldar have got, but when I compare their track records to say Eldrad pwning Abaddon or Maugan Ra scything down a nid bio-titan with one blow... I'm unimpressed to say the least.

SimonL
08-05-2009, 05:13
Gordon Rennie's Shadow Point. First 40k book I ever read. The Avatar wades through a continent of orks simply because they are in the way of his journey.

chromedog
08-05-2009, 05:27
Avatar vs Keeper of Secrets

The fluff piece in 2nd ed codex had the Avatar breaking the back of a KoS over his knee (after it had consumed several waystones of fallen warriors).

WastedWhiteBoy
08-05-2009, 07:57
Yea, the Avatar isn't typically given the power level (haha) that he deserves. Greater Daemons should be terribly monstrosities that lay waste to entire armies, that make even the mightiest warriors tremble in fear. I think the rampant marine hate is idiotic, but I will say in the Calgar case, it was rather sad.

I may get scoffed at, but I think the original DoW (and DoW 2, actually) had it pretty damned good. The only way to destroy an Avatar was through massive amounts of firepower, often as you engaged him with your own super unit. That's how it should be (as it should be with all Greater Daemons). They're the living incarnations of their terrible gods; they deserve to be some fo the most powerful beings in the galaxy.

Arbiter7
08-05-2009, 08:42
Not to mention that in the sample battle report for the Space Marines codex the mighty avatar is downed by a lucky plasma pistol shot coming from the marine captain juuuust before it manages to enter combat with him.

One might argue that the frequent use of an Avatar as an enemy that was vanquished by someone legendary is sort of a compliment.

But it does get to a point of being common enough to miss the point.

Poseidal
08-05-2009, 09:06
The fluff piece in 2nd ed codex had the Avatar breaking the back of a KoS over his knee (after it had consumed several waystones of fallen warriors).

Only one stone. It's actually older than 2nd, was in WD127 too.

The Avatar could pull out hearts of a cultist from a distance (ie not manually) just by gesturing, causing them to explode.

Vote Kantor
08-05-2009, 09:28
In DoW winter assault, the avatar is Pwning the chaos marines until the bloodthirster turns up with a move imaginatively named: kill avatar

WastedWhiteBoy
08-05-2009, 09:31
Haha yea I remember that...kind of like that weapon in Resident Evil 4. It's description something along the lines of "this rocket launcher is meant to be used against the final boss".

Darkspear
08-05-2009, 10:06
Actually I agree with the OP, the Avatar is a wuss. C'mon guys the game rules says it all, he is not T8 and can be killed by lasguns (although someone can argue that he can't be killed by meltaguns but the Wraithlord can;) )

pookie
08-05-2009, 15:16
Just remeber the storys were the Avatar is beaten, is usually in the contaxt of that Dex, of course MC beat one, Fulgrim beat one, to show how hard he was etc, so it depends on whos POV your talking about as to wether they are as hard as the Eldar seem to make them out to be.

Hellebore
08-05-2009, 15:21
Well rulewise in EPIC they are treated as War Engines just like a titan. They and greater daemons have structure points like a warhound.

However, you'll notice no stories of Bloodthirsters/lords of change/great unclean ones etc being owned by all and sundry. GW seem to want to show how hard characters are by having them destroy the Avatar and nothing else.

Despite the fact that the Avatar is supposed to be on par with a bloodthirster in power.

Hellebore

Idaan
08-05-2009, 16:15
As Hellebore said, that's because there are no stories in Eldar codex and only one book in which Avatar is on the protagonist's side (in which he pwns all the Orks). All his other appearances are just as a random monster for main character's level grinding and looting.

As pointed out, there was a story in 2e Codex in which Keeper of Secrets is killed by the Avatar. And the 2e stats of the Avatar were much more in line with its power level. Blame Gav Thorpe and Phil Kelly for their idea to make the Eldar HQs different to other races as buffers, not powerful units in their own right. Result: the 155 point wimp we have now and even worse 95 point wimp we used to have.

WastedWhiteBoy
08-05-2009, 16:19
Well, daemons have had some pretty bad defeats. Look at the Bloodthirster (forget his name) who got owned by Sanguinius.

So a Bloodthirster, who is like what...twenty to thirty feet tall or so, made of pure muscle and literally formed of pure rage, gets it's back broken over the knee of the primarch.

A nine foot dude breaks the back of a house sized daemon. Over his knee.

Yea.

Felwether
08-05-2009, 16:33
Well he is Sanguinius... :D

Primarchs did all kinds of crazy s**t back in the day.

Poseidal
08-05-2009, 16:36
As pointed out, there was a story in 2e Codex in which Keeper of Secrets is killed by the Avatar. And the 2e stats of the Avatar were much more in line with its power level. Blame Gav Thorpe and Phil Kelly for their idea to make the Eldar HQs different to other races as buffers, not powerful units in their own right. Result: the 155 point wimp we have now and even worse 95 point wimp we used to have.

80 points actually. I used to joke that the Avatar had to turn up in every minor skirmish because the Eldar were tight and the tooled up Farseers were too expensive to send to battle.

w00tm0ng3r
08-05-2009, 21:31
Well, daemons have had some pretty bad defeats. Look at the Bloodthirster (forget his name) who got owned by Sanguinius.

So a Bloodthirster, who is like what...twenty to thirty feet tall or so, made of pure muscle and literally formed of pure rage, gets it's back broken over the knee of the primarch.

A nine foot dude breaks the back of a house sized daemon. Over his knee.

Yea.

Technically the bloodthirster in question (Ka'Bandha) beat down Sanguinus, broke his legs, and killed 500 blood angels (THAT'S HALF A CHAPTER'S WORTH OF PLOT ARMOR!!! HOLY S***!!!:eek:) with one blow in an earlier battle, and then beat down Sanguinus again before getting cocky and getting schooled while he was pointing and laughing at Sanguinus on the ground so I wouldn't exactly say that was too terrible of a defeat...

Interesting about the other KoS, I'll have to check out that one.

On a side note, how big is an Avatar anyway? The old models seemed to indicate around 15-20 feet, the DoW games make Avatars at least 25 feet (taking bloodthirster = 30 feet as official), and Forge world's new model looks HUUUUUUUUGE from the pics on the website (never seen one on the table).

GraveGuard
08-05-2009, 22:46
The Avatar always seems to have been a problem. He's meant to be a walking killing volcano of liquid magma and rock that should be immune to any heat/energy based weapon. He should be able to kill with a touch for crying out loud as I assume having direct contact with that much heat would hurt (anyone who would care to correct me on that it welcome to test the theory). He should probably turn anything he walks on into goo and melt roads.

Then there's the whole court of the young king fluff where you have to rouse/wake the Avatar by having your top warriors commit ritual suicide.

Hell the Avatar's art actual parts of a once existing God. Not just small aspects of some swirly emotional mass given form but an actual part of a god. An Avatar should be able to pawn anything.

Then there's the Eldar Fluff problem - The Eldar will never win anything in the Fluff or be of any Major importance. For all GW going on about you can't write Eldar because we wouldn't get them or their points of view on the Universe. They are the ones that Turned the Eldar into the 2 dimensional "Space Elves" they are now. They're Vulcans with Punk hairstyles.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-05-2009, 07:05
Well, daemons have had some pretty bad defeats. Look at the Bloodthirster (forget his name) who got owned by Sanguinius.

So a Bloodthirster, who is like what...twenty to thirty feet tall or so, made of pure muscle and literally formed of pure rage, gets it's back broken over the knee of the primarch.

A nine foot dude breaks the back of a house sized daemon. Over his knee.

Yea.

He was a Primarch. /discussion

Vaktathi
09-05-2009, 07:26
Despite the fact that the Avatar is supposed to be on par with a bloodthirster in power.


I don't recall this ever being the case. In every version I can recall from 2nd ed onwards the Bloodthirster has been clearly superior.

Poseidal
09-05-2009, 08:17
I don't recall this ever being the case. In every version I can recall from 2nd ed onwards the Bloodthirster has been clearly superior.

In 2nd edition, the Avatar had better toughness and initiative but less attacks and less wounds than the BT (though Attacks were less important back then though, and it meant it got more fumbles; Initiative was not that important too).

On a combat draw (which was quite likely with both having WS10), the Avatar would win combat by 1 thanks to his initiative.

Importantly, the Avatar ignored the Bloodthirster's save, while the Avatar got a 4+ unmodifiable against him then.

The Avatar also had more immunities than the Bloodthirster.

They also both lost combat if charged by Jain Zar, but she had trouble doing enough wounds to kill them. :p

Ddraiglais
09-05-2009, 09:05
The Avatar always seems to have been a problem. He's meant to be a walking killing volcano of liquid magma and rock that should be immune to any heat/energy based weapon. He should be able to kill with a touch for crying out loud as I assume having direct contact with that much heat would hurt (anyone who would care to correct me on that it welcome to test the theory). He should probably turn anything he walks on into goo and melt roads.

I'll take that challenge when you give me an extra heart, lung, and other genetic implants. Make me 7'-8' tall monster with muscles to match. Then give me a suit of armor that is near indestructable.

I'm not saying your average marine should be able to bitch slap an avatar, but the whole liquid magma thing is kinda nullified by Fulgrim's and Calgar's armor and super physique. We're also talking about a primarch and the chapter master that every marine aspires to be like.




P.S. Yes, that last bit was to
get the natives stirred up. :p

Poseidal
09-05-2009, 09:13
I'll take that challenge when you give me an extra heart, lung, and other genetic implants. Make me 7'-8' tall monster with muscles to match. Then give me a suit of armor that is near indestructable.
Power Armour is only as strong as Aspect Armour from the background material. The Avatar's shell is harder than Aspect Armour.

Also, how well do those guys fare to Melta gun shots? Because every swing of the Avatar is like being shot by a Meltagun at point blank range.

xeno106
09-05-2009, 13:02
Well, I can tell you why. It's the name! Srsly you can fight KoS, Thirster and all you want but nothing sounds as bad ass as dispatching an _Avatar_ with a single blow. On a side note, I have given up takeing profiles into account when it comes down to fluff arguments. You see from the fluff perspecive a marine is a walking army in its own right, yet it gets bitchslapped by the very frist renegade with a plasmagun in the game.

Mannimarco
09-05-2009, 13:26
ok, the bloodthirster is a manifestation of khornes rage so is mega powerful, the avatar on the other hand is actually a small part of the eldar got of war, not just a manifestation ergo the avatar should be more powerful than the bloodthirster

lets just gloss over the whole fulgrim incident, you do not distract the god of war by throwing a sword at him then choking him, he doesnt breathe!

Messiah
09-05-2009, 17:48
He didnt even throw the sword at the Avatar, he just tossed it upwards.

I guess its because the Avatar is a more unique thing as well, there are only a few out there. Greater daemons are a dime a dozen.

WastedWhiteBoy
10-05-2009, 04:39
Well I mean in reality both Greater Daemons and the Avatar are extremely rare. Hell, the Avatar basically is a Greater Daemon. The only reason I'd say Avatars are rarer is because the forces of chaos actively seek out and throw themselves into debauchery and combat, so the chances of a daemon getting summoned are higher as they are simply involved in more engagements than the Eldar, who generally try to avoid combat. Even when they take to the battle field, the Eldar don't summon the Avatar except in serious cases...any major chaos engagement is going to involve the leaders doing their best to bring their greatest weapons (the daemons) to the front.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 04:45
There are also a finite number of Avatars. The Greater daemons are only limited by their god's power. Tzeentch could if he wished split his entire being into nothing but Lords of Change.

However the number of Avatars are limited by the number of craftworlds in the galaxy, which isn't going to be that many really. I'd estimate no more than 1000 exist in the galaxy, if that.

Hellebore

Horus38
10-05-2009, 04:57
Gordon Rennie's Shadow Point. First 40k book I ever read. The Avatar wades through a continent of orks simply because they are in the way of his journey.

You just made my night :D

To the OP: Avatar is traditionally considered on par with Greater Demons of Chaos. As my fellow Eldar fluff-masters have pointed out there is a noted bias from GW in portraying the Eldar doing anything win-worthy, but rather a tool to make other races look pimp by slapping up on our best.

kikkoman
10-05-2009, 10:00
in 2nd edition, wasn't the Avatar an anti-daemon Daemon? His weapon ignored their saving throws or so.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 10:13
He was as strong as the Bloodthirster and as tough as the great unclean one (S8, T8) and his attacks ignored daemonic aura saves. He had a 2+ armour save that could not be reduced to less than a 4+. He had an amazing strategy rating and was WS10 BS10 I10.

He cost the same as a bloodthirster.

Hellebore

Poseidal
10-05-2009, 11:53
For some reason I think it never classified the Avatar as a daemon but he got the save ignoring rule. I think it was a bit of an oversight though.

Rockerfella
10-05-2009, 12:20
Yeah, he was a pure deamon killer, to be fair. The Wailing doom ignored deamonic saves. Ahhhh, those were the days. I wonder what the Fluff explanation for that would be? WHy would an essence of Khaine cause so much damage to another deamon?

Lord_Crull
10-05-2009, 14:24
Power Armour is only as strong as Aspect Armour from the background material. The Avatar's shell is harder than Aspect Armour.



Proof and quotes. I have never heard that before.




Also, how well do those guys fare to Melta gun shots? Because every swing of the Avatar is like being shot by a Meltagun at point blank range.

Proof and quotes, and are you using game mechanics?


ok, the bloodthirster is a manifestation of khornes rage so is mega powerful, the avatar on the other hand is actually a small part of the eldar got of war, not just a manifestation ergo the avatar should be more powerful than the bloodthirster



Bloodthirsters ARE a peice of Khorne, read the daemons codex. And Khorne is always growing more powerful due to the amount of rage in the galaxy, Khaine is a dead god broken up. So the stuff about the Avatar being better is pure Eldar fanwank.



lets just gloss over the whole fulgrim incident, you do not distract the god of war by throwing a sword at him then choking him, he doesnt breathe!

I have been over this discussion before and safe to say Fulgrim kills the Avatar by throttling him until his head burst like a pimple. Or at least that's the impression I got from it.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 15:58
Khaine isn't dead, there is still belief in him. Belief=gods, that's the point of 40k. he also lives on in his avatars who are also fed souls sacrificed to him to awaken him.

Technically, none of the eldar gods can be dead so long as there are eldar that believe in them. The Exodites still believe in Isha and Kuronous et al. What probably happened is the greater portion of their gods' power was consumed by Slannesh but the tiny embers left behind still existed, although nowhere near the extent to which Khaine or Cegorach survived. don't forget that the Exodites existed thousands of years before Slannesh was actually born and they retained their religions whilst also not feeding Slannesh. So their belief alone should have kept some aspect of the eldar gods alive, whether as literal components of the original ones or as new entities formed by their psyches.

God formation and change is never ending whilst there are sentients in the galaxy.

As for astartes skin vs an avatar. It is molten iron. The melting point of iron is 1538 °C. It also has 'boiling' iron in its veins. The boiling point of iron is 2862 °C. An astartes receives organs that make their bones denser (ossmodula) and their muscles larger. That is all. As they start out as humans, they start out with human tissue types. That they require tissue compatability means the marine implants cannot be too different to human tissues or rejection ensues.

Human tissue requires ~760°C to combust (at that temperature the water in the first layer of skin is evapourated instantly and the dessicated material left behind burns down). It will burn at lower temperatures though.

There is no magical indestructanium in astartes skin, it burns and melts at the same temperatures as a normal humans it's just that A) they have MORE skin and muscle to burn through and B) they can ignore the pain caused by it and continue to fight with no loss of ability until the damage becomes structural (ie tendons etc are burnt through making the limb useless no matter how much pain you can ignore).

Aspect armour was said to offer the same protection as power armour in 2nd ed afaik (the wargear book). There were several types of aspect armour but the heaviest, like reaper and scorpion armour were lighter, more flexible and equal in protection to powered armour.

Of course, I've not seen anything that says power armour is better than any other armour in the galaxy either.

Hellebore

WastedWhiteBoy
10-05-2009, 16:01
I always liked Kage's theory (think it was Kage) who said that the Keeper of Secrets daemons were basically the majority of the Eldar gods, with their core essences locked away in the daemon.

Or something along those lines. He explained it far better!

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 16:06
The problem I have with that is Slannesh emobodies very specific emotions that none of the other eldar gods embody (otherwise they'd already HAVE a Slannesh equivalent).

The gods consume souls and emotions but are trapped in a specific persona that they can't change. By ignoring their gods and focusing (albiet unconsciously) on creating slannesh they simply weakened their own gods and fed Slannesh instead. In this scenario Slannesh didn't 'eat' the eldar gods so much as eat their FOOD and starved them.

However, it doesn't make much sense that gods still believed in by millions of highly psychic individuals aren't actually forming in the warp (or reforming). Gods form whereever there is emotion and souls and the exodites and even craftworld eldar still think of their gods, still create shrines to them etc. That sort of thing creates gods, whether deliberate or not.

I mean, they built Slannesh from first principles without any previous foundation. Their gods USED to exist but are ghosts. That's more than Slannesh started as.

Hellebore

Eumerin
10-05-2009, 21:11
Gods form whereever there is emotion and souls and the exodites and even craftworld eldar still think of their gods, still create shrines to them etc. That sort of thing creates gods, whether deliberate or not.

Based on that idea, there's probably a good argument that the Phoenix Lords are on their way to becoming Eldar gods.

Sceleris82
10-05-2009, 23:10
Well honestly, i dont see the problem with the ways the Avatar gets owned, since we have also seen alot of greater demons get owned.

Captain Stern has owned the same Lord of change a few times.

Angron and his bodyguard of bloodthirsters got owned by greyknights.

Avatar gets smacked by Foulgrim and Calgar, seems fair to me.


And a bloodthirster should be more powerfull than a avatar.
Khaine IS a dying god, since the race which worships him are dying. Also Khaine doesnt draw on the raw power of emotions which is why he is way weaker than Khorne, and also why Khornes greater deamons are more nasty.

Its even stated quite alot, that the bloodthirster is the meanest opponent you can find in the warhammer world.

And the people who claims he is pure lava omg, he should be able to kill everything. If he was pure lava why aint the craftworld basicly melting when he gets woken up, how do the craftworld transport him around and even stay semi close to him.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 00:39
As for astartes skin vs an avatar. It is molten iron. The melting point of iron is 1538 °C. It also has 'boiling' iron in its veins. The boiling point of iron is 2862 °C. An astartes receives organs that make their bones denser (ossmodula) and their muscles larger. That is all. As they start out as humans, they start out with human tissue types. That they require tissue compatability means the marine implants cannot be too different to human tissues or rejection ensues.

Human tissue requires ~760°C to combust (at that temperature the water in the first layer of skin is evapourated instantly and the dessicated material left behind burns down). It will burn at lower temperatures though.

There is no magical indestructanium in astartes skin, it burns and melts at the same temperatures as a normal humans it's just that A) they have MORE skin and muscle to burn through and B) they can ignore the pain caused by it and continue to fight with no loss of ability until the damage becomes structural (ie tendons etc are burnt through making the limb useless no matter how much pain you can ignore).



1. The astartes have the black carapace as well. They do have skin renforcement. And special organs that allow them to survive the extreme change in tempratures when exposed to vaccum.

2. Do not bring hard science to 40k. 40k laughs at hard science before picking up off the street and using it like a cheap ho. This is a setting with deamons and space undead. The enitre setting destroys the laws of science and reason.




Aspect armour was said to offer the same protection as power armour in 2nd ed afaik (the wargear book). There were several types of aspect armour but the heaviest, like reaper and scorpion armour were lighter, more flexible and equal in protection to powered armour.

Of course, I've not seen anything that says power armour is better than any other armour in the galaxy either.

Hellebore

The 4th edition Eldar codex say that the armor is not as thick or heavy as the armor employed by the Imperium and is seemed to be desighed to absorb impacts where the aspect suits merely have moulded plates.

EDIT: The 2nd edition wargear book says nothing about Aspect armor being equal to power armor. I just checked.

Hellebore
11-05-2009, 01:14
So what you are saying is I should have said Avatars burn the skin from space marines because they poop rainbows and fart butterflies in order to prove that flesh burns under the touch of molten iron? Why would we be told that A) avatars are made of molten and boiling iron and that B) marines are humans with augmented physiques if it means nothing?

Combining molten iron with meat gets you incinerated meat. That simple. If you are going to try and get out of that then it isn't me ******* on about things.

They sweat a waxy substance that gives them LIMITED survival in vacuum. A normal human body can survive for a little while in a vacuum anyway before they die.

That's one of the strong points of eldar armour. It is lighter and thinner but provides the same level of protection. It's supposed to show just how advanced it is that they can produce skin tight leotards that protect them as much as power armour.

Space marine skin and muscle is not described as anything but human skin and muscle. The biscopia increases hormone output, which increases HUMAN muscle growth. This is taken directly from the creation of a space marine article by GW. Thus space marine muscle is entirely human muscle, just grown to larger sizes. Which means it has the same vulnerabilities as normal human muscle (like say, BURNING when it is on fire).

I'm not sure exactly what you expect. meltaguns kill space marines, lasguns burn holes in them, plasmaguns burn holes in them a molten iron fist at ~2000C burns holes in them.

If that DOESN'T happen then I am not the one fanwanking. Next marines will be catching bullets with their teeth and eating tanks for breakfast. :rolleyes:

EDIT: The black carapace protects the torso, not the head arms or legs. Perhaps not even the stomach, although the description isn't particularly good. It is described as looking like a film of black plastic. It would provide SOME protection from heat, but it isn't indestructible as evinced by marines being killed through shots to the chest.

LOl, you also reminded me of the Mark Gibbons piece of artwork of the avatar. It has an incincerated marine skeleton between its legs, covered in plates of cracked armour. All that's left is the skeleton and even the mighty marines can't survive as just a skeleton.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 01:29
So what you are saying is I should have said Avatars burn the skin from space marines because they poop rainbows and fart butterflies in order to prove that flesh burns under the touch of molten iron? Why would we be told that A) avatars are made of molten and boiling iron and that B) marines are humans with augmented physiques if it means nothing?

Combining molten iron with meat gets you incinerated meat. That simple. If you are going to try and get out of that then it isn't me ******* on about things.



I am simply pointed out that you ignored the marine's carapace and gene enhancements, not to mention the suit of power armor that he would be wearing. Not to mention Calgar had a freaking suit of terminatior armor that was made to operate in plasma reactors and extensive bionics.

Also are the Avatar's even literaly made of molten iron? Or is that a fancy description? I would not bring hard science into the debate as the Avatar's very EXISTANCE would be nullified by science.

Also is'nt the molten part in the core? And if the skin is molten iron would't marine bolters pierce it's armor with ease then? Saying that is is literaly molten iron would in fact make it easy for the Avatar to die from an anti-tank missle or any kind of bolter, which is clearly not the case. Or the fact it would kill any Eldar who stood next to it from the heat. Because Eldar have stood next to the Avatar in the fluff.




That's one of the strong points of eldar armour. It is lighter and thinner but provides the same level of protection. It's supposed to show just how advanced it is that they can produce skin tight leotards that protect them as much as power armour.



But they do not protect them as much as power armor, your statements are contridicted by the wargear book and the codices. You are the one who is making things up. The only ones who get PA-equivlent in game terms are the Exarchs and they have more advanced suits.




[QUOTE=Hellebore;3560549]

Space marine skin and muscle is not described as anything but human skin and muscle. The biscopia increases hormone output, which increases HUMAN muscle growth. This is taken directly from the creation of a space marine article by GW. Thus space marine muscle is entirely human muscle, just grown to larger sizes. Which means it has the same vulnerabilities as normal human muscle (like say, BURNING when it is on fire).

I'm not sure exactly what you expect. meltaguns kill space marines, lasguns burn holes in them, plasmaguns burn holes in them a molten iron fist at ~2000C burns holes in them.

If that DOESN'T happen then I am not the one fanwanking. Next marines will be catching bullets with their teeth and eating tanks for breakfast. :rolleyes:



Again you ignore the black carapace, and the suit of sealed power armor. Do you want me to pull out the example from the Fire warrior novelization where a marine survives six plasma pistol shots?

In addition you have provided me with little evidence and what evidence you HAVE provided is false when I checked the source. To me it seems like you are fanwanking.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 01:33
double post

Hellebore
11-05-2009, 01:48
Yes, we were talking about marine flesh, nothing more (if you go back to the post you actually quoted the first line started with AS FOR ASTARTES SKIN VS AVATAR). Of course power armour is going to protect them from it, that's its job.

As for armour, I'm looking at the wargear page from 2nd ed that lists aspect armour and power armour (pg67). Neither mentions how awesome leet they are at providing protection. They describe how the armour works and that aspect armour is highly advanced psychic engineering that reforms around the wearer as they move, sometimes with extra rigid plates added for protection. Power armour is said to be bulky and thick and cumbersome to use were it not for the black carapace. It then lists the armour save values for each with power armour given as 3+ and aspect armour ranging from 5+, 4+, 3+.

The latest eldar codex says that even the heaviest and most ornate of these suits worn by Exarchs are still lightweight compared to the bulky armour of other races.

Can you provide a quote that says that power armour is stronger than all other armour in the galaxy? I've seen one for Terminator armour (generally associated with the plasma reactor soundbite), but have not seen something that says no other race can produce armour with the same protective qualities as power armour.

The eldar armour descriptions DO say that their armour is more advanced and lightweight compared to other races and that even their heaviest armours, worn by exarchs is still lighter than Imperial equivalents.

Being lighter doesn't make your armour worse, it makes it lighter. The only examples we have of comparative protective qualities are the actual armour saves. I don't like using game statistics as evidence, but in this case there is actually nothing else that tells you the comparative quality of armour. Since 2nd edition (and part way through 1st) space marines have had a 3+ armour save. For that same length of time striking scorpions have also had a 3+ armour save. Dire avengers have had a 4+ save for that same length of time.

If you ignore the game stats then all you are left with is different sets of armour being used and no actual description of their comparative quality. Aspect armour doesn't increase the user's strength AFAIK, so that's a defnite difference between aspect armour and power armour. However it doesn't make any comment on the actual protective quality.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 01:56
Being lighter doesn't make your armour worse, it makes it lighter. The only examples we have of comparative protective qualities are the actual armour saves. I don't like using game statistics as evidence, but in this case there is actually nothing else that tells you the comparative quality of armour. Since 2nd edition (and part way through 1st) space marines have had a 3+ armour save. For that same length of time striking scorpions have also had a 3+ armour save. Dire avengers have had a 4+ save for that same length of time.

If you ignore the game stats then all you are left with is different sets of armour being used and no actual description of their comparative quality. Aspect armour doesn't increase the user's strength AFAIK, so that's a defnite difference between aspect armour and power armour. However it doesn't make any comment on the actual protective quality.



The impression that I got from reading it was that the Eldar armor was essentially mesh armor that operated like flak vests that stiffen at the point of impact and that the additional plates merely provided extra protection that was equal to carapace armor.

Can you provide me a solid quote that states in no uncertain terms that aspect armor is as good as power armor rather than vauge statements?

If you want to go by game mechanics then the average suit of power armor is still superior to the average suit of aspect armor. Although if the Avatar really has ''molten iron skin'' and not a skin formed from alien metals within a molten core then weapons should pierce the ''iron skin'' easily.

EDIT: Found something in the Inquisitor rulebook, Ceramite is heat-resistiant, conducting almost no heat. There is nothing on the heat-resistiant properties of the eldar armor.

Hellebore
11-05-2009, 02:06
The impression that I got from reading it was that the Eldar armor was essentially mesh armor that operated like flak vests in stiffining at the point of impact and that the additional plates merely provided extra protection that was equal to carapace armor.


Where does the idea that the extra plates = carapace armour come form? You can't make a judgement on that, because the eldar don't use the same materials (ie even the heaviest armour is much lighter). All you can say with certainty is that they have flexible bodygloves that reform around the wearer and are reinforced with rigid plates. The protective value of the rigid plate could be less than tissue paper or more than adamantium, but it doesn't say.



Can you provide me a solid quote that states in no uncertain terms that aspect armor is as good as power armor rahter than vauge statements?


Hmmm, I certainly THOUGHT I could, but if the quote does indeed exist then I cannot find it.

So, for argument sake let us throw out the declaration that there is an actual quote that says aspect armours are equivalent to power armour in protection. We are left with nothing. Which could either be they are equal to, better than, or worse than power armour in protection. As it doesn't say you can not equally say it DOESN'T protect as much.

So, we are now unable to comment on the relationship between them. So, can you now provide me with something that says power armour is BETTER than aspect armour at protection? We have already decided nothing says aspect armour is equivalent.

Because removing my argument of equivalency doesn't make the opposite automatically true, that's a classical logical fallacy. Ie if I say the sky is red and you say the sky is green and you prove ME wrong, it doesn't automatically make your argument correct (which I'm assuming is that power armour provides better protection than aspect armour). It doesn't automatically make it wrong either.

So I accept that there is nothing that states aspect armour provides the same protection as power armour.

Now you'll have to prove that power armour is BETTER than aspect armour to prove that your position is correct too.



If you want to go by game mechanics then the average suit of power armor is still superior to the average suit of aspect armor.

Yes, because there are several grades of aspect armour, as there has always been. The toughest aspect armour (which used to be worn by everyone except banshees, hawks and avengers) was always equal to power armour games mechanicswise.

I apologise if I had inferred ALL aspect armours were equal, as they clearly aren't and never were. However I was attempting to disprove the idea that ALL aspect armours are inferior to power armour.

EDIT: What we can definitely say is that aspect armour is described in one way and power armour in another. Unless there is any piece of information comparing the two then we cannot say if they are equal to each other, one is worse or one is better. Does that make sense?



And a bloodthirster should be more powerfull than a avatar.
Khaine IS a dying god, since the race which worships him are dying. Also Khaine doesnt draw on the raw power of emotions which is why he is way weaker than Khorne, and also why Khornes greater deamons are more nasty.

Its even stated quite alot, that the bloodthirster is the meanest opponent you can find in the warhammer world.


It depends how much of Khorne is IN his greater daemons. All daemons are parts of their gods. Khaine is entirely in his avatars. I'm sure if Khorne made 5 bloodthirsters and put himself into all of them they would be insanely powerful. So the question then becomes, what is relative size and power between Khaine and Khorne and how much of that is spread across their greater daemons?

If there were 1000 Avatars then each one would have 0.1% of their god's power because the entirety of Khaine is in his avatars. If there were 10,000 bloodthirsters then they would have less than 0.01% of their god's power because Khorne has many other daemons that exist as parts of him so the bloodthirsters cannot make up the total of Khorne. However if Khorne is 100x more powerful than Khaine the avatar and thirster would be of equivalent power (because the % of Khorne that each of those bloodthirsters make up is the equivalent of 0.1% of Khaine).




And the people who claims he is pure lava omg, he should be able to kill everything. If he was pure lava why aint the craftworld basicly melting when he gets woken up, how do the craftworld transport him around and even stay semi close to him.

That would be because wraithbone is referred to as more resilient than adamantium and more flexible (pg 13 of the 4th ed eldar codex). It can also repair itself when psychic energy runs through it.



Hellebore

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 08:44
In 1st ed (wd127) it said that Aspect Armour basically was power armour but lighter; just like that.

Back them power armour was a 4+ save. aspect was majority 3+ and lower values were in minority.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 11:12
So, for argument sake let us throw out the declaration that there is an actual quote that says aspect armours are equivalent to power armour in protection. We are left with nothing. Which could either be they are equal to, better than, or worse than power armour in protection. As it doesn't say you can not equally say it DOESN'T protect as much.

So, we are now unable to comment on the relationship between them. So, can you now provide me with something that says power armour is BETTER than aspect armour at protection? We have already decided nothing says aspect armour is equivalent.



Power armor is made of Ceramite which is meant to be heat resistiant. In addition it is sealed from chemical and outside attack. Can you give me demostrated feats of Aspect armor in the books?

I will accept that high-end aspect armor is equal to power armor but thier is a good portion of the armor ''marks'' that are carapace-equivlent.





It depends how much of Khorne is IN his greater daemons. All daemons are parts of their gods. Khaine is entirely in his avatars. I'm sure if Khorne made 5 bloodthirsters and put himself into all of them they would be insanely powerful. So the question then becomes, what is relative size and power between Khaine and Khorne and how much of that is spread across their greater daemons?

If there were 1000 Avatars then each one would have 0.1% of their god's power because the entirety of Khaine is in his avatars. If there were 10,000 bloodthirsters then they would have less than 0.01% of their god's power because Khorne has many other daemons that exist as parts of him so the bloodthirsters cannot make up the total of Khorne. However if Khorne is 100x more powerful than Khaine the avatar and thirster would be of equivalent power (because the % of Khorne that each of those bloodthirsters make up is the equivalent of 0.1% of Khaine).



The Warp Does Not Work That Way. Trying to apply something like hard math to something like the chaos gods is impossible, they defy logic and all concepts of space and time.

It is perfectly posssible for Khorne to have a thousand bloodthirsters and a million bloodthirsters at the same time because of the nature of the warp.

Not to mention Khorne is stronger than Khaine because he has more worshippers and he get's stronger from acts of rage and anger, regardless of the source. Khaine's worshippers got wiped out by Slaanesh with only a few surviviors who in turn have a smaller section of the population worship him when they walk the Aspect Path.


Where does the idea that the extra plates = carapace armour come form? You can't make a judgement on that, because the eldar don't use the same materials (ie even the heaviest armour is much lighter). All you can say with certainty is that they have flexible bodygloves that reform around the wearer and are reinforced with rigid plates. The protective value of the rigid plate could be less than tissue paper or more than adamantium, but it doesn't say.



Game terms. The regular Guardians have flak armor save and now that the lighter aspect warriors have plates added I thought it would be like carapace armor.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 11:46
In 2nd, Aspect Armour always had identical immunities as Power Armour. For all intents and purposes, it WAS Power Armour, under a different name.

NightrawenII
11-05-2009, 12:17
Power armor is made of Ceramite which is meant to be heat resistiant. In addition it is sealed from chemical and outside attack. Can you give me demostrated feats of Aspect armor in the books?

I will accept that high-end aspect armor is equal to power armor but thier is a good portion of the armor ''marks'' that are carapace-equivlent.

Well, Eldar use wraithbone for their suits and this IS referred as the superior than any other material. And errm every armour suit in game is sealed against chemicals and outside attack (:confused:what do you mean "outside attack" ???) even IG can be equiped for chemical warfare.


The Warp Does Not Work That Way. Trying to apply something like hard math to something like the chaos gods is impossible, they defy logic and all concepts of space and time.

It is perfectly posssible for Khorne to have a thousand bloodthirsters and a million bloodthirsters at the same time because of the nature of the warp.

Not to mention Khorne is stronger than Khaine because he has more worshippers and he get's stronger from acts of rage and anger, regardless of the source. Khaine's worshippers got wiped out by Slaanesh with only a few surviviors who in turn have a smaller section of the population worship him when they walk the Aspect Path.

Im not sure but somewhere in C: Deamons is mentioned that deamon is/have only tiny fragment of the Gods power.(Can be wrong) And also the current power level depend on his patron.

On the other side the Avatar is fueled by whole Craftworld (millions of Eldar) before he awoke, then aspect warrior sacrifice himself to bring him to full power. And dont forget the Deamon with *real* body is always superior than deamon without it (Soulgrinder page).

I think the Avatar is on equal level as the Bloodthirster and the battle between these two will be epic without very clear victor.

Sceleris82
11-05-2009, 14:07
You are correct, the Bloodthirster is a fragment of Khrone, just like the avatar is.

The diffrence is that Khorne is WAY more powerfull than Khaine. Khaine is not even close.

And "normal" Eldar do not wear Wraithbone armor, and neither is a craftworld made from 100 procent wraithbone. The infinitycirquit is, but not the "body" of the craftworld.

Only thing that makes sense, that the Avatar might appear to be made of molten iron cause of the smoke fire and etc. But he has a bleeding fist, and stuff doesnt melt around him. So either the stuff is contained in some way, or its just a illusion so to speak, kinda like a Ctan which has its essence contained in a shell.

And also, its no use to refer to crazy old fluff to prove that Avatar = BT. The setting has evolved, and stuff that didnt make sense or worked, has been changed.

Ps: My claim for a craftworld not being made of wraithbone is, that wraithbone was created after the fall.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 14:16
Well, Eldar use wraithbone for their suits and this IS referred as the superior than any other material. And errm every armour suit in game is sealed against chemicals and outside attack (:confused:what do you mean "outside attack" ???) even IG can be equiped for chemical warfare.



1. The Eldar do not use wraithbone for their armor, they use psychic-plastics appearantly.

2. Is flak armor sealed? Are the leather jackets and bits of metal the orks wear sealed? We have little information on the capacities of eldar armor.




Im not sure but somewhere in C: Deamons is mentioned that deamon is/have only tiny fragment of the Gods power.(Can be wrong) And also the current power level depend on his patron.

On the other side the Avatar is fueled by whole Craftworld (millions of Eldar) before he awoke, then aspect warrior sacrifice himself to bring him to full power. And dont forget the Deamon with *real* body is always superior than deamon without it (Soulgrinder page).

I think the Avatar is on equal level as the Bloodthirster and the battle between these two will be epic without very clear victor.

What about the Keeper of Secrets possesing the Avatar's statue? Where does it say the Avatar is powered by the millions of eldar? I thought he was just a fragment of Khaine.


In 2nd, Aspect Armour always had identical immunities as Power Armour. For all intents and purposes, it WAS Power Armour, under a different name.

That has changed in recent editions, jus tlike marines are no longer psycho ciminals and IG no longer have acess to shuriken weapons and land speeders.

NightrawenII
11-05-2009, 14:29
You are correct, the Bloodthirster is a fragment of Khrone, just like the avatar is.

The diffrence is that Khorne is WAY more powerfull than Khaine. Khaine is not even close.

Slaanesh cannot defeat Khaine so she shattered him to pieces. Define Power Level of God:)


And "normal" Eldar do not wear Wraithbone armor, and neither is a craftworld made from 100 procent wraithbone. The infinitycirquit is, but not the "body" of the craftworld.

Aspect warriors arent normal Eldar.


Only thing that makes sense, that the Avatar might appear to be made of molten iron cause of the smoke fire and etc. But he has a bleeding fist, and stuff doesnt melt around him. So either the stuff is contained in some way, or its just a illusion so to speak, kinda like a Ctan which has its essence contained in a shell.

And plague spread by Nurgle deamons is mass hypnosis so to speak. The Avatar is possessed iron statue by fragment of God. See the Avatar page in the last Eldar codex.


And also, its no use to refer to crazy old fluff to prove that Avatar = BT. The setting has evolved, and stuff that didnt make sense or worked, has been changed.

Ps: My claim for a craftworld not being made of wraithbone is, that wraithbone was created after the fall.

citation needed.;)

Edit:

1. The Eldar do not use wraithbone for their armor, they use psychic-plastics appearantly.

2. Is flak armor sealed? Are the leather jackets and bits of metal the orks wear sealed? We have little information on the capacities of eldar armor.

1. Funny enough. Wraithbone IS psycho-plastic.
2. Im sorry if I wasnt clear. By *armour suit* i mean full-body-covered by armour ie. tau fire warriors, SM, CSM, Terminators, DKoK etc. etc.


What about the Keeper of Secrets possesing the Avatar's statue? Where does it say the Avatar is powered by the millions of eldar? I thought he was just a fragment of Khaine.

Avatars spirit was awoken, but without sacrifice of AW he was helpless to stop KoS from possessing the statue.


That has changed in recent editions, jus tlike marines are no longer psycho ciminals and IG no longer have acess to shuriken weapons and land speeders.

As I said above. Citation needed.;)

Radium
11-05-2009, 14:35
You are correct, the Bloodthirster is a fragment of Khrone, just like the avatar is.

The diffrence is that Khorne is WAY more powerfull than Khaine. Khaine is not even close.

And "normal" Eldar do not wear Wraithbone armor, and neither is a craftworld made from 100 procent wraithbone. The infinitycirquit is, but not the "body" of the craftworld.

Only thing that makes sense, that the Avatar might appear to be made of molten iron cause of the smoke fire and etc. But he has a bleeding fist, and stuff doesnt melt around him. So either the stuff is contained in some way, or its just a illusion so to speak, kinda like a Ctan which has its essence contained in a shell.

And also, its no use to refer to crazy old fluff to prove that Avatar = BT. The setting has evolved, and stuff that didnt make sense or worked, has been changed.

Ps: My claim for a craftworld not being made of wraithbone is, that wraithbone was created after the fall.

The eldar used wraithbone long before the fall, as they had entire wraithconstructs to do all their work for them.

Also, a craftworld's spine is made of wraithbone, and powered by the infinity circuit.

Finally: an Avatar has a bloody hand because Khaine killed Eldanesh. The hand is supernatural, symoblic thing, eternally dripping with blood.

Iracundus
11-05-2009, 14:45
2. Is flak armor sealed? Are the leather jackets and bits of metal the orks wear sealed? We have little information on the capacities of eldar armor.


Incorrect. 2nd ed. Wargear book gave detailed information. Flak armor is not sealed, and neither is the Ork equivalent. IG had rebreather and masks to supplement their armor as did Guardians, hence their improved resistance to certain weapons such as toxin grenades as detailed in the Wargear book. Lacking such equipment, Orks were the most vulnerable. Sealed armor with internal air supply was immune, and examples of such armor were given, such as power armor and aspect armor (no differentiation made between various Aspects' immunity, hence ALL aspect armor is sealed).

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 15:12
1. Funny enough. Wraithbone IS psycho-plastic.


Where? There is nowhere to my knowledge something that states Wraithbone is used in armor, the armor description for the eldar implies a diffrent materal and all the information that I have dredged up on wraithbone suggests it's used as a construction material.

Eldar Guardians use Mesh armor.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mesh_Armour

And Aspect Warriors have something appearantly cloth-like that is renforced with additional plates.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aspect_Armour


Incorrect. 2nd ed. Wargear book gave detailed information. Flak armor is not sealed, and neither is the Ork equivalent. IG had rebreather and masks to supplement their armor as did Guardians, hence their improved resistance to certain weapons such as toxin grenades as detailed in the Wargear book. Lacking such equipment, Orks were the most vulnerable. Sealed armor with internal air supply was immune, and examples of such armor were given, such as power armor and aspect armor (no differentiation made between various Aspects' immunity, hence ALL aspect armor is sealed).

I was being sarcastic. Which you appearantly did not get.

Iracundus
11-05-2009, 15:16
I was being sarcastic. Which you appearantly did not get.

You were contending that little was known about Eldar armor, which is a false statement as little details of their sealing or lack of sealing are known from 2nd edition at the very least.

Messiah
11-05-2009, 15:21
In 1st ed (wd127) it said that Aspect Armour basically was power armour but lighter; just like that.

Back them power armour was a 4+ save. aspect was majority 3+ and lower values were in minority.

Since Crull seems to be ignoring it, Im bumping this.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 15:23
Many Psychoplastics (not even including Wraithbone) are stronger than Adamantium and Ceramite.

Falcon/Serpent hulls are reported to be ~10-15mm thick according to some AA books but they can withstand the same blows as Imperial armour does at (in the same book) 10 or more times the thickness.

They're not even made entirely of Wraithbone (only the 'structure' parts are).

That's very strong.



Ps: My claim for a craftworld not being made of wraithbone is, that wraithbone was created after the fall.
The Codex specifically mentions that the internal structure or bones of the Craftworld is Wraithbone, joining itself in the core where the Avatar is.

So the Wraithbone is at the places where it matters.

The Psycho


That has changed in recent editions, jus tlike marines are no longer psycho ciminals and IG no longer have acess to shuriken weapons and land speeders.
Where? I've seen no mention of the changes to how the Armour behaves in any recent publication. In fact, some of it was reprinted in the 2006 codex where they say it responds to the wearer's movements and hardens on impact.

Ghal Maraz
11-05-2009, 16:10
On the part about old background pieces not having any relevance:

it is true that new fluff trumps old fluff.

But at the same time, it is also true that older fluff, not retconnected or changed by newer fluff, is still valid.

And really, I don't see why there's a problem about the heavier Aspect Armour and Power Armour being equal in protection (that's it, not taking in account fanboy syndrome).
They offer the same kind of protection (in game terms; but that's the only statistical measure we have for fantasy-SF inventions); they both are sealed and protect from external agents.
Aspect armour is lighter, being made of a mesh shirt surrounded by psycho-plastic, psycho-sensitive, move-sensitive material.
Power armour is heavier and thicker and, in the case of Marine Power Armour, it has exo-skeleton features, granting strenght-enhancement to the wearer.
Eldar and Imperium have different techs, which operates in different ways, and, by almost all fluff (I really, really hope this sentence isn't contested), Eldar one is superior.
But Eldar do operate in different manners and have different ways of thinking: they don't breed genetically enhanced warrioirs, so Marines are still better than Aspect Warriors in physical strenght, stamina, endurance, resistance to pain. Aspect Warriors are faster than Marines, excel in their chosen form and, like every other Eldar, have a mind much more complex than a human, with at least a potential for psychic.

Eldarion
11-05-2009, 16:38
potential for psychic.

It’s not potentially psychic. They are Psychic.

Ghal Maraz
11-05-2009, 17:42
It’s not potentially psychic. They are Psychic.

I know.
What I mean is for manifestation of psychic powers, which they show only in structured forms (Runes, Path of the Seer/Witch...).

FarseerMatt
11-05-2009, 18:21
My thoughts on a few of the topics being thrown around:

ON WRAITHBONE


And "normal" Eldar do not wear Wraithbone armor, and neither is a craftworld made from 100 procent wraithbone. The infinitycirquit is, but not the "body" of the craftworld.

Correct. Wraithbone is just one of many psychoplastics produced by the Eldar. Its most useful property is its ability to “channel warp energy the way a copper wire channels current” (BFG rulebook) which makes it useful for drawing on warp energy as a power source (in Eldar ships) or as a repository for the psychic potential of Eldar souls (the infinity circuit, wraith constructs).


ON THE AVATAR


And the people who claims he is pure lava omg, he should be able to kill everything. If he was pure lava why aint the craftworld basicly melting when he gets woken up, how do the craftworld transport him around and even stay semi close to him.

My guess is that it is contained. The iron statue is just a “body” used in the same way a wraithguard or wraithlord is “worn” by a spirit stone; the Avatar itself is pure psychic energy (which is probably why he can be screwed over by anti-daemon weapons – there’s not a lot of difference between psychic and daemonic energy as they both come from the Warp). Almost all of the Avatar’s power is psychic, and it seems that a lot of his psychic power is geared towards pyromancy. So although he will be generating physical heat (from the red-hot iron), he will also be able to create a lot more “psychic” fire and have the ability to be selective about it i.e. flare up or dampen it at will.

In Shadow Point, the Avatar focusses the power of his fire through his gaze to incinerate the DE Archon. At other points, he generates a corona of flame all around him to stop enemies from closing and to vaporize bullets before impact. At others, he focusses his power through the Wailing Doom as a stream of fire. And at the end he uses his power to dampen his PHYSICAL heat to the point where he can touch a Farseer's shoulder without harming him (something the Farseer himself is surprised by, I might add).



Saying that is is literaly molten iron would in fact make it easy for the Avatar to die from an anti-tank missle or any kind of bolter, which is clearly not the case.

Presumably the Avatar’s psychic power works defensively as well – the statue is likely reinforced by a psychic shield generated by the Avatar (hence a 4+ inv save in game). The process may even be aided by the iron statue itself – it mentions in the old Eldar codex that if an Avatar is defeated its spirit returns to the Craftworld until it has “grown a new form”. This implies that the statue is created by the Avatar itself so it may even be some weird form of “psychic metal” that better conducts the Avatar’s energy.


ON ELDAR ARMOUR


Power armor is made of Ceramite which is meant to be heat resistiant. In addition it is sealed from chemical and outside attack. Can you give me demostrated feats of Aspect armor in the books?

In the 3rd edition rulebook (on the armour page) it states that Eldar mesh armour “disperses heat rapidly, making it quite effective against heat-based weapons”. OTOH by game mechanics Guardian mesh armour is defeated by the AP5 of a standard flamethrower, but oh well :p

Evidence that it is fully sealed can be found in the description next to the helmet: “summarised functions include environmental systems, communications etc” and also from the fact that on models and in artwork it is demonstrably a full-body suit.


ON TOPIC :p

It is a given fact of 40K that Avatars and Greater Daemons and the like are some of the most dangerous entities in the galaxy. Therefore it is inevitable that defeating one will be seen as more exceptional than one of them simply laying the smack down. Quite simply, exceptional feats make a better story, so although everyone knows that these entities are extremely powerful, we are likely to see more examples of them losing than winning. That said, see Shadow Point for examples of an Avatar kicking ass, or Eye of Terror for Greater Daemons doing the same.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 19:43
double post

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 19:46
You were contending that little was known about Eldar armor, which is a false statement as little details of their sealing or lack of sealing are known from 2nd edition at the very least.

No, I was being sarcastic, I should know, I typed it. I already explained that, which you chose to ignore.



Many Psychoplastics (not even including Wraithbone) are stronger than Adamantium and Ceramite.

Falcon/Serpent hulls are reported to be ~10-15mm thick according to some AA books but they can withstand the same blows as Imperial armour does at (in the same book) 10 or more times the thickness.

They're not even made entirely of Wraithbone (only the 'structure' parts are).

That's very strong.



Imperial armor stats are not good to go by. They are written by people with no armor experiance and they contridict other sources. If we go by what they publish then bolters would pop rhinos like cardboard.




The Psycho

Where? I've seen no mention of the changes to how the Armour behaves in any recent publication. In fact, some of it was reprinted in the 2006 codex where they say it responds to the wearer's movements and hardens on impact.

I thought the whole desigh concept of Eldar was that they traded protection for speed.


Since Crull seems to be ignoring it, Im bumping this.

I did not ignore it, I simply pointed out that it was 1st edition and things have changed, 1st edition 40k bears little resemblace to the one we know now.




And really, I don't see why there's a problem about the heavier Aspect Armour and Power Armour being equal in protection (that's it, not taking in account fanboy syndrome).
They offer the same kind of protection (in game terms; but that's the only statistical measure we have for fantasy-SF inventions); they both are sealed and protect from external agents.
Aspect armour is lighter, being made of a mesh shirt surrounded by psycho-plastic, psycho-sensitive, move-sensitive material.


I was not contesting the point of suits like the Dark Reaper and Scorpion suis being equal to power armor. I was contesting the point that all suits where like it.




In the 3rd edition rulebook (on the armour page) it states that Eldar mesh armour “disperses heat rapidly, making it quite effective against heat-based weapons”. OTOH by game mechanics Guardian mesh armour is defeated by the AP5 of a standard flamethrower, but oh well :p

Evidence that it is fully sealed can be found in the description next to the helmet: “summarised functions include environmental systems, communications etc” and also from the fact that on models and in artwork it is demonstrably a full-body suit.



I do not have the 3rd edition codex.

Also I have a question about the Avatar, if it depnds on psychic powers then what would happen if a blank was brought near it? Would it simply collapse? Banished back to the craftworld?

FarseerMatt
11-05-2009, 20:03
Imperial armor stats are not good to go by. They are written by people with no armor experiance and they contridict other sources. If we go by what they publish then bolters would pop rhinos like cardboard.

True to a point, but the armour thicknesses don't make sense only if you assume that Imperial armour composition is the same as modern armour. Getting more protection per unit thickness is the ideal for armour design (as it saves on weight, among other things) so it can be assumed that 40K armour is simply made of better stuff than modern armour.



Also I have a question about the Avatar, if it depnds on psychic powers then what would happen if a blank was brought near it? Would it simply collapse? Banished back to the craftworld?

Interesting question. From the Ciaphas Cain series we have Jurgen who is physically painful for daemons to be around, so it is quite possible that a Pariah could drive an Avatar back. On the other hand, from the Eisenhorn series (specifically Hereticus) we can see that blanks can be overwhelmed by sufficient psychic force - so the Avatar may be able to fry the pariah's brain like the Chaos titan does to Bequin.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 21:30
Imperial armor stats are not good to go by. They are written by people with no armor experiance and they contridict other sources. If we go by what they publish then bolters would pop rhinos like cardboard.

I thought the whole desigh concept of Eldar was that they traded protection for speed.
Even so, it gives you the scope of their materials. With that in mind, Power Armour level protection is trading protection for speed.

If it were thick material or using Wraithbone, they would be like Wraithguard and have something like effective toughness 6.

Also, trading protection for speed has never been stated in any material I've seen. In fact, they have armour and get more protection from speed. Eldar vehicles of that size are still tanks yet they can achieve excellent speeds and even atmospheric flight.


I did not ignore it, I simply pointed out that it was 1st edition and things have changed, 1st edition 40k bears little resemblace to the one we know now.
Things began changing in that very WD. It defined the Eye of Terror, Eldar Craftworld and their culture and forces. Eldar more or less haven't changed since then.

Also, all the 'technical' stuff has changed even less than the rest of the fluff.



Also I have a question about the Avatar, if it depends on psychic powers then what would happen if a blank was brought near it? Would it simply collapse? Banished back to the craftworld?
More or less what happens when other greater Daemons go near one.

I think though, that there isn't a blank that exists that has enough to cause that sort of effect on a Greater Daemon equivalent; at least there has been none mentioned. The Culexus are the most powerful of blanks, and they don't for a start.

Rockerfella
11-05-2009, 22:05
Whats is this 'Khorne is more powerful than Khaine' nonsense? Khaine was arguably, and singularly, the most powerful entity in the known galaxy before Slaanesh appeared. Slaanesh was glutted on the power of the entire Eldar Pantheon, and could only fight Khaine to a standstill. That shows his martial divinity was without question.

The latest Eldar codex makes that last battle between the two not so one sided as many of the Eldar 'slammers' would historically have had us believe.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 22:11
Whats is this 'Khorne is more powerful than Khaine' nonsense? Khaine was arguably, and singularly, the most powerful entity in the known galaxy before Slaanesh appeared. Slaanesh was glutted on the power of the entire Eldar Pantheon, and could only fight Khaine to a standstill. That shows his martial divinity was without question.


I think Khorne only became powerful after the demise of the eldar gods - I mean before hand there were at least 2 'war' gods - now there is only one. (unless gork and mork count...)

Messiah
11-05-2009, 22:24
I thought the whole desigh concept of Eldar was that they traded protection for speed.

Not quite true, they have more advanced technology which offers them the same protection, but with better speed. (Otherwise it would not be more advanced, only different)

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 22:36
Whats is this 'Khorne is more powerful than Khaine' nonsense? Khaine was arguably, and singularly, the most powerful entity in the known galaxy before Slaanesh appeared. Slaanesh was glutted on the power of the entire Eldar Pantheon, and could only fight Khaine to a standstill. That shows his martial divinity was without question.

The latest Eldar codex makes that last battle between the two not so one sided as many of the Eldar 'slammers' would historically have had us believe.

And Slaanesh was the weakest of the gods. In fact I thought Slaanesh beat Khaine and shattered him into the pieces of the Avatar, Is says nowhere in the 4th edition codex that Khaine matched Slaanesh. Another story has the same thing but Khorne and Slaanesh fighting over Khaine.


True to a point, but the armour thicknesses don't make sense only if you assume that Imperial armour composition is the same as modern armour. Getting more protection per unit thickness is the ideal for armour design (as it saves on weight, among other things) so it can be assumed that 40K armour is simply made of better stuff than modern armour.



No, The Imperial armor books use the stats in Index Astatres for it's armor, and it is noted as being the equivelent to 365mm of conventional steel for the Land Radier's armor, if that holds true for the rest of the Index astartes then 40k armor would be around WWII level.

chromedog
11-05-2009, 22:45
To whomever mentioned that the SM Black Carapace would protect against burning.

The BC is a Subdermal implant (ie, BELOW the skin, just above the muscle layer). The creation of a SM article States this. Something BELOW or UNDER the skin cannot protect against SURFACE damage (which is purely how burns work) by the very nature of its location (It's like the BC is a brick wall. There's a guy with a flamethrower, and he can't burn you through the wall, BUT - and this is important - the Wall can't protect you because you're standing in FRONT of it.). Sure, it'll add a measure of protection from kinetic energy IMPACT damage, but against fire/burning?

Another point.
"If 1000 Avatars are created, they would have 1/1000th of Khaine's power."
Yes, this would be true IF and ONLY IF they ALL were manifested simultaneously. Until then, the power can potentially be wholly used by ONE shard. While the Avatar 'sleeps', the power inherent may be used elsewhere. The fragment is there, but until awakened by the psychic bloodlust and Exarch sacrifice, Khaine's power resides elsewhere, free to be shared by any and all until needed by particular shards.

Nothing in the eldar fluff (post 1990) has been retconned out - since they have felt free to reprint chunks of it in various codices since 2nd ed - unlike the SM, therefore it all remains true (from that point of view).

Rockerfella
11-05-2009, 22:48
And Slaanesh was the weakest of the gods. In fact I thought Slaanesh beat Khaine and shattered him into the pieces of the Avatar, antoher story has the same thing but Khorne and Slaanesh fighting over Khaine. At the time of s/his birth, Slaanesh was the most powerful of the gods. S/he had just consumed an entire pantheon of other gods, and the race that fed them. If the other gods had been able to defeat Khaine and co, why hadn't they attempted to absorb their essences previously? My guess is because they couldn't. Slaanesh, having just eaten the souls of 98% of the galaxies most psychically potent race, had no equal. The only one who could stand against her was Khaine. Khorne himself attempted to stop Slaanesh being born, but couldn't.

See, the problem here is, we get into the whole Khaine/Khorne same entity debate. My thoughts are thus: When the Eldar were dominant, the Eldar gods were dominant. That follows, as when Slaanesh was born, she was primarily an Eldar god. Having just glutted upon an entire race, one that had ruled the galaxy for at least a million years, she certainly wasn't the weakest of the gods.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 22:50
And Slaanesh was the weakest of the gods. In fact I thought Sllaanesh beat Khaine and Khorne tired to absorb Khaine and the two fought over him. Khaine then split himself into the Avatars.

That's the old fluff, which unlike the description of Aspect Armour has been superseded.

;)

Even then though, it wasn't because Slaanesh was about to beat Khaine; it was Khaine, although part of the Eldar Pantheon (and thus under Slaanesh's domain) was as much Khorne as Slaanesh so the tension tore Khaine apart - originally Khaine never even fought Slaanesh and it was a lot more metaphysical.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 22:52
See, the problem here is, we get into the whole Khaine/Khorne same entity debate. My thoughts are thus: When the Eldar were dominant, the Eldar gods were dominant. That follows, as when Slaanesh was born, she was primarily an Eldar god. Having just glutted upon an entire race, one that had ruled the galaxy for at least a million years, she certainly wasn't the weakest of the gods.

That was my reading of it. And then, with the continued demise of the eldar slaanesh started to weaken, and thus had to latch onto humanity to continue to feed itself.

This is where they are now, slaanesh is now weaker than the other three, but gaining strength as its hold over humanity grows.

Rockerfella
11-05-2009, 22:55
That was my reading of it. And then, with the continued demise of the eldar slaanesh started to weaken, and thus had to latch onto humanity to continue to feed itself.

This is where they are now, slaanesh is now weaker than the other three, but gaining strength as its hold over humanity grows.


I'd go with that. It makes more sense to me, personally, that way.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:01
At the time of s/his birth, Slaanesh was the most powerful of the gods. S/he had just consumed an entire pantheon of other gods, and the race that fed them. If the other gods had been able to defeat Khaine and co, why hadn't they attempted to absorb their essences previously? My guess is because they couldn't. Slaanesh, having just eaten the souls of 98% of the galaxies most psychically potent race, had no equal. The only one who could stand against her was Khaine. Khorne himself attempted to stop Slaanesh being born, but couldn't.

See, the problem here is, we get into the whole Khaine/Khorne same entity debate. My thoughts are thus: When the Eldar were dominant, the Eldar gods were dominant. That follows, as when Slaanesh was born, she was primarily an Eldar god. Having just glutted upon an entire race, one that had ruled the galaxy for at least a million years, she certainly wasn't the weakest of the gods.


Regardless your claim of Khaine fighting Slaanesh to a standstill is false.

The Chaos gods themselves are more active than Khaine, who as you recall just lost most of his support base with the advent of the fall.


That's the old fluff, which unlike the description of Aspect Armour has been superseded.

;)


I said that was simply another story that I read, I never said it was absolute, I put more faith in the 4th edition story.




Even then though, it wasn't because Slaanesh was about to beat Khaine; it was Khaine, although part of the Eldar Pantheon (and thus under Slaanesh's domain) was as much Khorne as Slaanesh so the tension tore Khaine apart - originally Khaine never even fought Slaanesh and it was a lot more metaphysical.

Really? Do you have proof and quotes for me?

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:08
Regardless your claim of Khaine fighting Slaanesh to a standstill is false.

Wrong - and its even in the newest codex:

Tradition has it that slaanesh and the bloodyh handed god fought a titanic battle in the warp. DEspite khains divine might and mastery of war, slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods eventually proved stronger

Exhausted from the struggle, the great enemy was not powerufl enough to destroy the eldar god completely. etc etc


Now to me - that sounds exactly like a stand still to me. Stalemate in chess.




Really? Do you have proof and quotes for me?

Yea - its a really long paragraph in the original codex eldar published in white dwarf - it appears to have been re-conned since.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:12
Wrong - and its even in the newest codex:

Tradition has it that slaanesh and the bloodyh handed god fought a titanic battle in the warp. DEspite khains divine might and mastery of war, slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods eventually proved stronger

Exhausted from the struggle, the great enemy was not powerufl enough to destroy the eldar god completely. etc etc


Now to me - that sounds exactly like a stand still to me. Stalemate in chess.



No, it says right there that Slaanesh proved stronger. That is not the meaning of a stalemate. A stalemate is when both sides cannot one, here one side clearly one, unless they changed the definition of the word stalemate you are wrong by your own post.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 23:13
I said that was simply another story that I read, I never said it was absolute, I put more faith in the 4th edition story.


Really? Do you have proof and quotes for me?

It's that story (one you mentioned above). It says it in that way and wasn't a 'fight' as such; or if there was any fighting, it was between Slaanesh and Khorne, with Khaine not being involved being part of both of them.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:13
Read that story again; it's the same one.

The 4th edition codex does not mention Khorne at all.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:14
No, it says right there that Slaanesh proved stronger. That is not the meaning of a stalemate. A stalemate is when both sides cannot one, here one side clearly one, unless they changed the definition of the word stalemate you are wrong by your own post.

It says he was not powerful enough to destroy him - thus he couldnt win, he hadnt lost - ergo a stalemate.

Just the same as in chess - you can take every single one of your oponents pieces - you are winning - but you can still draw by not allowing him a move - stalemate.

Its exactly the same thing here. Said in black and white.

Stalemate:

1. Chess. a position of the pieces in which a player cannot move any piece except the king and cannot move the king without putting it in check.
2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.


So - defintion of it never mentions winning - just that neither side can advance - which is what it describes

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 23:15
The 4th edition codex does not mention Khorne at all.

The old fluff had the Khorne one, the one you mentioned you'd read somewhere. I just elaborated.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:16
It says he was not powerful enough to destroy him - thus he couldnt win, he hadnt lost - ergo a stalemate.

Just the same as in chess - you can take every single one of your oponents pieces - you are winning - but you can still draw by not allowing him a move - stalemate.

Its exactly the same thing here. Said in black and white.

Khaine was forced to split up into a million peices and the eldar race was almost wiped out. Slaanesh simply was unable to completely destroy Khaine, but Khaine lost as his objective was obviously to destroy Slaanesh, he failed. That is a defeat no matter how you look at it.

''Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the warp forever ''

I don't know about oyu but that sounds like a defeat.


The old fluff had the Khorne one, the one you mentioned you'd read somewhere. I just elaborated.

You told me to read the 4th ediiton one for Khorne.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:20
Khaine was forced to split up into a million peices and the eldar race was almost wiped out. Slaanesh simply was unable to completely destroy Khaine, but Khaine lost as his objective was obviously to destroy Slaanesh, he failed. That is a defeat no matter how you look at it.



U've seen star wars I assume?


Who 'won' vader or kenobi? Its the same thing - khaine saw the way the wind was blowing and rather than lose the war, allowed himself to be scattered and thus continue to lead his people.


Sure - he didnt win - but slaanesh sure as hell didnt win either - for him, winning was absorbing the entire eldar pantheon - khaine prevented him from doing that.

Khaine didnt win either - but he didnt lose - a stalemate.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:22
U've seen star wars I assume?


Who 'won' vader or kenobi? Its the same thing - khaine saw the way the wind was blowing and rather than lose the war, allowed himself to be scattered and thus continue to lead his people.


Sure - he didnt win - but slaanesh sure as hell didnt win either - for him, winning was absorbing the entire eldar pantheon - khaine prevented him from doing that.

Khaine didnt win either - but he didnt lose - a stalemate.


No he lost, he was forced from the warp forever, most of the pantheon and the eldar race ws eaten and is now on the way to a slow decline, Slaanesh destroyed Khaine, but now comepletely, the passage implies that it was not a voluntary seperation.

''Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the warp forever ''

Notice the word rent and ''driven out of the warp forever'' Driven out does not imply ''willingly''.

If that is your kind of definiton of stalemate then that means Germany stalemated both World Wars.:wtf:

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:29
No he lost, he was force from the warp forever, most of the pantheon and the eldar race ws eaten and is now on the way to a slow decline, Slaanesh destroyed Khaine, but now comepletely, the passage implies that it was not a voluntary seperation.

''Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the warp forever ''

Notice the word rent and ''driven out of the warp forever''

At which point am I saying that isnt true?

But it does CLEARLY say slaanesh was unable to kill him - which is evidentally what he wanted to do - thus, the best that he was able to do/khaine decided to do (depending on which of the 1000s of fluff sources you read say) was to force him out of the warp.

Slaanesh DIDNT 'win' for him winning was consuming all the eldar pantheon and controlling the eldar race. He failed to do that (so far). As I said before, Khaine certainly didnt win - but he didnt lose either as to lose would mean he no longer existed, which he still does (just).

All of which, mounts up to a stalemate - slaanesh cannot defeat khaine until the last craftworld is slient, khaine cannot defeat slaanesh until, well, thats harder as hes no longer just an eldar god

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:31
If that is your kind of definiton of stalemate then that means Germany stalemated both World Wars.:wtf:

Ah - no - you fail there on one vital point - the allys had no intention of destroying germany. The important thing to consider is the end game.

The end game for slaanesh and khaine is to destroy each other utterly - which neither has managed.

The end game for the allys in world war 1/2 was to stop germany, germanys end game was to conquer europe/the world and - well - the allys won, germany lost.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:34
Ah - no - you fail there on one vital point - the allys had no intention of destroying germany. The important thing to consider is the end game.

The end game for slaanesh and khaine is to destroy each other utterly - which neither has managed.

The end game for the allys in world war 1/2 was to stop germany, germanys end game was to conquer europe/the world and - well - the allys won, germany lost.


At which point am I saying that isnt true?

But it does CLEARLY say slaanesh was unable to kill him - which is evidentally what he wanted to do - thus, the best that he was able to do/khaine decided to do (depending on which of the 1000s of fluff sources you read say) was to force him out of the warp.

Slaanesh DIDNT 'win' for him winning was consuming all the eldar pantheon and controlling the eldar race. He failed to do that (so far). As I said before, Khaine certainly didnt win - but he didnt lose either as to lose would mean he no longer existed, which he still does (just).

All of which, mounts up to a stalemate - slaanesh cannot defeat khaine until the last craftworld is slient, khaine cannot defeat slaanesh until, well, thats harder as hes no longer just an eldar god

Where does it say Slaanesh wanted to do so? it was certainyl an objecive but he ate the majority of the Eldar race tha tKhaine tired to protect. He won his main goal, those who escaped where essentially the pruds of the Eldar race. Slaanesh won, he is now a full Chaos god. He has all the time in the universe to wait until the Eldar go extinct.

Slaanesh succeded, Khaine was destoyed and scattered, I can't put it any other way.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:40
Where does it say Slaanesh wanted to do so? it was certainyl an objecive but he ate the majority of the Eldar race tha tKhaine tired to protect. He won his main goal, those who escaped where essentially the pruds of the Eldar race. Slaanesh won, he is now a full Chaos god. He has all the time in the universe to wait until the Eldar go extinct.

Slaanesh succeded, Khaine was destoyed and scattered, I can't put it any other way.

The implications is there in the wording - you are chosing to ignore it:

Exhausted from the struggle, the great enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the eldar god completely.

It says it there, clear in black and white - Slaanesh wanted to destroy him - but he couldnt. Thats what he wanted. THEN because he couldnt, he did what he could and broke him up and scattered him out of the warp.

Khaine isnt destroyed - it clearly says that TWO gods surived the fall - it says it in that very box.

GraveGuard
11-05-2009, 23:42
Okay ill throw some stuff in there seeing as we seem to have gone past the Avatar thing and for some reason ended up with Crull trying to make out/believeing/thinking Eldar Armour is inferior to Marine Power Armour.

Wraithbone is a Psycho-Plastic not the only Psycho-Plastic. Only things like the Wraith Lords, Wraith Guard, the cores of Ships ,the Craftworld shells and Rune Armour are made from Wraithbone.
The rest of the things are made from various other PsychoPlastics.

Guardian armour descriptions no longer seem to be valid as they describe "Mesh Armour as being like Chainmail" which was clearly accurate on the previous Guardian Models but is no longer true on the current ones as they wear suits similar to that of aspect warriors.
If anything the best way of describing Eldar armour would be a material bodysuit/glove overwhich reinforced plates of Pyscho plastics are placed to cover places of importance/vital organs/vunrable areas etc to verying degrees, density's and constistancy.

The enclosed thing: There were from about 2nd edition rule descriptions regarding Enclosed/Open armour for when playing games dealing with chemical weapons, dangerous environment (no ogygen etc), in space.
A quote about Enclosed Armour from the Toxin chart in the 2nd Ed Wargear Book:
It cannot harm those wearing sealed types of armour. Marines in Power or Terminator Armour are not effected, neither are Aspect Warriors - The armour worn by these troops has its own air supply and completely isolates them from the envrionment.


And if we get onto the subject of Harlequin Holo Fields they work by prisming light from the wearer into patterns of the suit they wear. So as they move you would only see what is best discribed as spots of exploding powered paint, the faster the wearer moves the more erratic, varied and extreme these "explosions" become so you canno't look at them properly. The also work by whenthe wearer is standing still he would be also invisible as he blends into his surroundings like a Chameleon.

Lord_Crull
11-05-2009, 23:44
The implications is there in the wording - you are chosing to ignore it:

Exhausted from the struggle, the great enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the eldar god completely.

It says it there, clear in black and white - Slaanesh wanted to destroy him - but he couldnt. Thats what he wanted. THEN because he couldnt, he did what he could and broke him up and scattered him out of the warp.

Khaine isnt destroyed - it clearly says that TWO gods surived the fall - it says it in that very box.

Look at the word ''completely''. He did destroy Khaine, he was cast out of the warp, he can't grow stronger in the warp from the eldar anymore, he now exists only as Avatars while Slaanesh still grows, Khaine is not a coherant force anymore, Slaanesh is, Slaanesh plans and grows stronger from humanity also. With the loss of each craftworld Khaine can only grow weaker.

Khaine was forced from the warp unwillingly and shattered, the passage makes that clear. From that point on it is only a matter of time before Slaanesh wins. Khaine's failure to destroy Slaanesh meant the doom of most of the Eldar race, which powered Slaanesh.

Everything went Slaanesh's way, he did much more damage to Khaine then Khaine did to Slaanesh and accomplished much more of his goals.

If Slaanesh did not win then the Eldar race would not be declining. It is as simple as that.


Okay ill throw some stuff in there seeing as we seem to have gone past the Avatar thing and for some reason ended up with Crull trying to make out/believeing/thinking Eldar Armour is inferior to Marine Power Armour.



I never said that, the point I was trying to make that some models provid less protection while others models of aspect armor are as good as marine armor.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:52
Look at the word ''completely''. He did destroy Khaine, he was cast out of the warp, he can't grow stronger in the warp from the eldar anymore, he now exists only as Avatars while Slaanesh still grows, Khaine is not a coherant force anymore, Slaanesh is, Slaanesh plans and grows stronger from humanity also. With the loss of each craftworld Khaine can only grow weaker.

I dont disagree with that - but it does clearly say that TWO gods survived the fall, and then names them. Khaine was not destroyed - but scattered. Irrelavent of how you want to spin it and say look up the word completely - it says it in the bloody codex - TWO gods - what more do you want? a Tatoo?


Khaine was forced from the warp unwillingly and shattered, the passage makes that clear. From that point on it is only a matter of time before Slaanesh wins. Khaine's failure to destroy Slaanesh meant the doom of most of the Eldar race, which powered Slaanesh.

Again, I dont disagree - however the eldars fate is not so clearly set in stone - thats the most likely outcome - but some of the fluff says that the farseers can still see a victorious outcome, its just very very faint (And may well refer to yyinded (SP?) winning for them, which is rather a pyric victory to say the least...)


Everything went Slaanesh's way, he did much more damage to Khaine then Khaine did to Slaanesh and accomplished much more of his goals.

Again - I dont disagree - but look at the defintion of chess - you can achieve a stalemate with just one piece left - you can lose everything else, but if you have your king and your enemy makes a mistake, its a stalemate.

Which frankly is the situation at the moment. The eldar still exist, they have found a way of surving which means they are outside of the control of slaanesh (spirit stones and the path system) - but they cannot reforge their former glory - a stalemate.

In the future tat stalemate could change and slaanesh could yet win - but right now, no one has won, no one has lost. Sure one side has more pieces - but its not over till the fat squat sings. :p

Lord_Crull
12-05-2009, 00:11
I dont disagree with that - but it does clearly say that TWO gods survived the fall, and then names them. Khaine was not destroyed - but scattered. Irrelavent of how you want to spin it and say look up the word completely - it says it in the bloody codex - TWO gods - what more do you want? a Tatoo?



You can survive and still be defeated. Khaine was in a sense crippled.




Again, I dont disagree - however the eldars fate is not so clearly set in stone - thats the most likely outcome - but some of the fluff says that the farseers can still see a victorious outcome, its just very very faint (And may well refer to yyinded (SP?) winning for them, which is rather a pyric victory to say the least...)



This is Warhammer 40k, a place with no happy endings.




Again - I dont disagree - but look at the defintion of chess - you can achieve a stalemate with just one piece left - you can lose everything else, but if you have your king and your enemy makes a mistake, its a stalemate.

Which frankly is the situation at the moment. The eldar still exist, they have found a way of surving which means they are outside of the control of slaanesh (spirit stones and the path system) - but they cannot reforge their former glory - a stalemate.

In the future tat stalemate could change and slaanesh could yet win - but right now, no one has won, no one has lost. Sure one side has more pieces - but its not over till the fat squat sings. :p

Warhammer is not chess. The Eldar cannot sustain losses easily, their numbers are few and with each Eldar death Slaanesh grows closer to victory.

proditor
12-05-2009, 00:16
The preceeding two pages of the 4e Eldar Codex make it abundantly clear that at it's birth, Slaanesh was hands down the most powerful thing running. It's creation caused the Eye of Terror, calmed the warp storms, killed billions upon billions of mortals, wiped out a pantheon of their gods, and created a being that was so potent that "No creature was ever conceived that was as terrible or perverse as the Chaos God Slaanesh..."

So, even though Khorne was already an existing quantity, he was apparently unable to be conceived of as worse than Slaanseh. Sure, things changed, but there is a lot more hyperbole to support the "Slaanesh was teh bom digiity at her birth" argument than any other interpertation. Has that changed a lot? Yup, sure has. It took 10,000 years and the instantaneous loss of it's primary "food" supply to do it. And that's not hyperbole, since it says that Slaanesh was created by the will and decadence and depravity of the Eldar, it was their dark side made manifest. After the fall, it was also suddenly without the mass of beings that gave it power in the first place.

It's so convoluted, I'd expect to find Tzeentch watching raptly, and muttering "Exactly as I planned" while rubbing his hands together feverishly.

Sceleris82
12-05-2009, 00:17
Honestly Maidel, using the quote to claim the battle was a stallmate doesnt make sense.

A stallmate is when neither side is winning.

Slaanesh did WIN, no doubt about that, you dont win when you as a last desprate attemp to survive scatter yourself into shards.

Thats like a marine and a orc fighting, the marine looses all it limbs cept its leg, but managed to hump away. The Orc is fine, just abit tired.
Marine comes home, omg omg i had this fight with the evil orc, but no worries it was a stallmate, and then tries to convince people it was his plan all along.

Messiah
12-05-2009, 00:24
Slaanesh might have won the battle, not the war, thats what Maidel is trying to say (I think).

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 00:31
It depends on how you difine winning. A total victory with the utter descruction of your enemy, or him retreating. Its all "Victory Conditions".

If the condition was to kill Khaine, wipe him out etc. It was a loss as Slaanesh didn't.
If the condition was to weaken Khaine, make him run away, flee etc.....
If the condition was to make Khaine surrender.....

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 01:45
Slannesh ate all the eldar gods (or at least most of their powerbase). One can only assume he was intending to do the same to all of them. Cegorach being somehow really tricksy managed to 'hide' from Slannesh, whilst Khaine was strong enough to fight against Slannesh.

So, the victory condition seems to be 'the consumption of Khaine'. Slannesh did fail at eating Khaine, unlike Asuryan, Isha, Kurnous, Lileath, Morai Heg, Vaul etc. I don't think Slannesh's purpose was to fight Khaine. He was consuming all the eldar gods, it's just that Khaine fought back.

Hellebore

Giganthrax
12-05-2009, 02:17
Slaanesh decimated Khaine. He didn't manage to completely wipe him out (ie. consume him 100%), but he still very much defeated Khaine.

It's not a stalemate. It's a Slaanesh victory. Not as total as Slaanesh might've wanted it, but a victory nonetheless.

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 02:43
Slannesh did win, but not in the way he wanted. It wasn't a stalemate in that they had a big punch up and went to their respective corners panting.

Rather, Khaine somehow 'escaped' to the materium in his Avatars. What this does is create a kind of stalemate in that Khaine still exists, is still worshipped and still receives souls to fuel him. However, should he ever step foot into the warp again he will be eaten by Slannesh.

So there is a stalemate in that Slannesh cannot come into the materium to eat Khaine, and Khaine cannot LEAVE the materium or he'd get consumed.

Sort of like a mouse stuck in a hole with cat on the otherside trying to get in. By mouse I mean molten iron war god and by cat I mean multibreasted, androgynous, attention seeking, pleasure seeking, hedonistic god of excess. So, Cat then. :p

Slannesh's total victory will come when he consumes the eldar (thereby killing Khaine) or by destroying Khaine and eating his essence.

Hellebore

Succoros
12-05-2009, 03:16
If he's stuck in the materium and exists solely through the avatars, hows he getting these eldar souls? Unless you mean the whole sacrifice to wake him up thing, but thats one eldar at a time. I think the whole cast out of the warp idea would prevent any belief "powering him up" again, otherwise if beleiving in something in the materium can cause something to grow powerful IN the materium, whats the point of the warp?

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 03:25
This is one of the many aspects of 40k that GW just haven't tried to explain. Somehow a warp entity is now wholy within the materium, which means it should be cut off from all energy that feeds it, which means it should stop existing.

The only thing I can think of that rationalises it is the infinity circuit and the Eternal Matrix. The avatar is connected to that circuit (his throne is at its centre). When the eldar start to go to war their murderous emotions permeate the circuit and fill the avatar which makes him starts to wake. They then sacrifice an aspect warrior to him to wake him fully.

So, with the little information we have, it seems the infinity circuit acts as a sort of artifical warp space (it does hold eldar souls in it) that Khaine can exist within, or as part of.

Hellebore

HK-47
12-05-2009, 04:57
Cool Idea Hellebore, it's kind of hoking the Avatar up to a life support machine to keep it alive while it sleeps.

I always viewed GW stance on Greater Daemons (including the Avatar, Chaos daemons, and other non-god super strong warp entities) is that they are kind of like the medieval European Dragon. If you look at the Knight vs. Dragon stories you see that the dragon is there to mainly make the knight look cool. A "Wow he just beat a fire breathing Dragon! He's so cool!" kind of thing. How do you make a space marine look hard? Why you have him beat a super powerful creature, of course! This means GDs, Titans, large Nid, etc..etc... Since the Eldar are a "dying race" they pick the Avatar since there not as many Avatars as say KoS so that makes beating one an ever greater accomplishment. Making you as hard as the primarchs themselves.

Because everything in 40k exists to make Space Marines look cooler. :rolleyes:

Rockerfella
12-05-2009, 06:47
Where does it say Slaanesh wanted to do so? it was certainyl an objecive but he ate the majority of the Eldar race tha tKhaine tired to protect. He won his main goal, those who escaped where essentially the pruds of the Eldar race. Slaanesh won, he is now a full Chaos god. He has all the time in the universe to wait until the Eldar go extinct.

Slaanesh succeded, Khaine was destoyed and scattered, I can't put it any other way.

Oh god.

Why is it, when I see most arguments of this nature on these boards, you're involved in them somewhere? LOL! ;)

Slaanesh consumed and 'destroyed' all the other Eldar gods, why wouldn't he want to do the same to Khaine? The only reason he didn't, was becaus ehe couldn't. Sure, Slaanesh was stronger, we all know that, by a fraction mind. But that fraction proved to make the difference in the end game.

Slaanesh couldn't destroy Khaine, he wasn't strong enough to do that (even glutted on the power of the entier Eldar pantheon combined). Khaine still lives. Was that a win for Slaanesh? I don't know. Its a very contentious issue. It depends what your goals are, in all fairness.

Khaines still out there, in some way, shape or form. Who got the last laugh? (And don't say Cegorach...) ;)

This is one of the many aspects of 40k that GW just haven't tried to explain. Somehow a warp entity is now wholy within the materium, which means it should be cut off from all energy that feeds it, which means it should stop existing.

The only thing I can think of that rationalises it is the infinity circuit and the Eternal Matrix. The avatar is connected to that circuit (his throne is at its centre). When the eldar start to go to war their murderous emotions permeate the circuit and fill the avatar which makes him starts to wake. They then sacrifice an aspect warrior to him to wake him fully.

So, with the little information we have, it seems the infinity circuit acts as a sort of artifical warp space (it does hold eldar souls in it) that Khaine can exist within, or as part of.

Hellebore

You would have thought though, in all fairness, somewhere within the small amount of instances we have of Farseers or whatever speaking with 'great Ulthwe' (its infinity circuir) or what not, that they would be aware of this colossal, lurking essence that is knaine. If a portion of khaine is sitting within the infitiy circuits, why don't the other souls quail and scatter from it in fear?

I'm not saying its wrong, far from it. I like the idea, very much. I'm just curoius why GW wouldn't have at least given us some indication that thats what the deal is, through its fluff.

Maybe Khaine is a master of stealth, so they don't even know he's there? ;)

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 07:28
He seems to be in hibernation between battles. Perhaps his consciousness is spread over such a vast area and is dormant for such long periods of time that he doesn't cause much of a ripple in the matrix?

Maybe his throne room is heavily shielded, perhaps a one way circuit. Stuff can get in, but nothing can get out? Maybe he lives in his own eternal matrix alongside but seperate to the infinity circuit.

There are many inconsistencies within the eldar in particular in 40k. This is just another example unfortunately.

Hellebore

Adra
12-05-2009, 07:36
Maybe his throne room is heavily shielded, perhaps a one way circuit. Stuff can get in, but nothing can get out? Maybe he lives in his own eternal matrix alongside but seperate to the infinity circuit.


Yeah this is how I imagine it. If the infinity circuit is a room full of all the eldar connected to it, Khaine sits in a glass box in the middle. You can tell whens hes pissed but contained.

Lord_Crull
12-05-2009, 11:10
Oh god.

Why is it, when I see most arguments of this nature on these boards, you're involved in them somewhere? LOL! ;)

Slaanesh consumed and 'destroyed' all the other Eldar gods, why wouldn't he want to do the same to Khaine? The only reason he didn't, was becaus ehe couldn't. Sure, Slaanesh was stronger, we all know that, by a fraction mind. But that fraction proved to make the difference in the end game.

Slaanesh couldn't destroy Khaine, he wasn't strong enough to do that (even glutted on the power of the entier Eldar pantheon combined). Khaine still lives. Was that a win for Slaanesh? I don't know. Its a very contentious issue. It depends what your goals are, in all fairness.

Khaines still out there, in some way, shape or form. Who got the last laugh? (And don't say Cegorach...) ;)



Slaanesh still gutted the Eldar race. and the Eldar race of today is dying, and they will fall since this is Warhammer 40k and it is all grim dark and their can be no happy endings for anyone.

Messiah
12-05-2009, 11:59
Slaanesh still gutted the Eldar race. and the Eldar race of today is dying, and they will fall since this is Warhammer 40k and it is all grim dark and their can be no happy endings for anyone.

Wow. Thats real good input. Real good.

End of thread?

Sceleris82
12-05-2009, 12:19
Seems so to me. I doubt any eldar fanboyism can twist that fact around.

Poseidal
12-05-2009, 12:22
The Eldar endgame is somewhat akin to Norse Ragnarok in a way.

We know they (in some form at least) will be present in the final battle against Chaos, and whatever the outcome of that it looks like that'll wrap up the galaxy if not the universe.

Mannimarco
12-05-2009, 12:31
im not really up on the eldar fluff but isnt there some kind of god of the dead who is gonna come out and kick ass in the final battle? and IIRC theres some fancy sword that was created to destroy gods, cant remember whos packing this nifty little toy but could be handy

Maidel
12-05-2009, 12:39
@ hellbore.

Thanks, very glad I made sense to someone else. You put it exactly how I was trying to describe it.

Messiah
12-05-2009, 13:21
Seems so to me. I doubt any eldar fanboyism can twist that fact around.

I guess irony and lack of arguments have no hold on some..

Hllebore and Rockerfella: Sound very reasonable.

Giganthrax
12-05-2009, 14:06
So there is a stalemate in that Slannesh cannot come into the materium to eat Khaine, and Khaine cannot LEAVE the materium or he'd get consumed.

Sort of like a mouse stuck in a hole with cat on the otherside trying to get in. By mouse I mean molten iron war god and by cat I mean multibreasted, androgynous, attention seeking, pleasure seeking, hedonistic god of excess. So, Cat then.
So, in effect, Khaine is the one hiding like a mouse in a hole, and Slaanesh is the one running rampant and doing whatever he pleases.

Still looks very much like a Slaanesh victory to me. He sure as hell has nothing to feel particularly bad about. Maybe a bit denied, but he's really not in a hurry anyway. :/

Lord_Crull
12-05-2009, 14:22
I guess irony and lack of arguments have no hold on some..

Hllebore and Rockerfella: Sound very reasonable.

That is what the settng is, It can only get worse, that's what GW is pushing, you don't like grimdark then don't play 40k.

proditor
12-05-2009, 14:53
That is what the settng is, It can only get worse, that's what GW is pushing, you don't like grimdark then don't play 40k.

Well yes and no.

If it was ALWAYS "It can only get worse" then we wouldn't be hearing about the looming massive tyranid fleet that's going to get here some day, we'd be talking about the 12,000 worlds already lost to the nid invasion as it carves up Ultramar. We wouldn't talk about the next attack out of the eye of terror, we'd lament when Cadia fell into it last year.

Yeah, it's dark, and the outlook is bleak, but GW is smart enough to know that if there is NO hope, why bother playing? There has to be a small element of fighting the good fight against overwhelming odds to achieve some sort of victory, even if it's pyrrhic.

Reference Campbell's heroic journey. The basic tenet is more of "Look at how bad things are, and these are the GOOD GUYS!!!" than "Nothing you do will ever succeed." Sure, it's Grimdark, but that doesn't mean you don't shine a light in every now and then. Heck, the OP's first post about all of these Marines whomping on Eldar shows that it's not always worse. That's heroism.

It all depends on which race currently has the writer, and whether or not that writer actually likes them.

FarseerMatt
12-05-2009, 15:52
Maybe Khaine is a master of stealth, so they don't even know he's there? ;)

Well, he does have the Aspect of the Scorpion... :D

@ Giganthrax - The Eldar gods, if they are not "dead" in the absolute sense, can't do much since Slaanesh "stole their power" (possibly a metaphor for the Eldar turning from the ideals of their old gods to the corruption of Slaanesh and making Her stronger at Their expense), and for the moment the Eldar are pretty much on their own. You are correct in that Khaine was defeated, perhaps almost as badly as Vaul when Khaine himself beat him up and chained him to his own anvil. But he's not out. He can still take on individual greater daemons and foil Chaos in some small way (much like Cegorach cheating Slaanesh of souls, or Isha undoing the effects of Nurgle's plagues).

Still, we won't know the result of the real round 2 until the Star Child and Ynnead lay their cards on the table at the Rhana Dandra...

WastedWhiteBoy
12-05-2009, 16:37
To be fair, I think the Rhana Dandra is more of a prophecy "well lets hope that's how it happens" instead of a for sure thing. Could very well be wrong though. Plus isn't Ynnead the result of the extinction of the Eldar race given form into a god? While the idea of the Eldar pooling their souls together to destroy Slaanesh in a great, climatic act of revenge (and redeeming their race, if you think about it) is pretty damned cool, I never really saw it as a victory...at least in the typical way one thinks of a victory.

Also, I have to ask...I've heard multiple sides on Isha. Is she really a slave to Nurgle? I've heard Nurgle has her as his "love" and tests his plagues on her, but I've also heard this is the view of a single craftworld, and isn't necessarily true. It kinda bugs me whenever I see some people say one thing, and the others quite another.:p

Off topic...but even though Slaanesh is more of a human god now, wouldn't the Eldar still feed it a good deal? Look at the Dark Eldar. No, they aren't Chaos Eldar (so stop that rant before it even begins:p) but we really don't know how many there are. They still do the same stuff they did during the Fall. If they keep up to the same actions (and feel the same emotions) wouldn't this feed Slaanesh?

I believe (my Eldar fluff-fu is weak, so bear with me) that the paths are also very strict, so craftworld Eldar are in turn, pretty emotionless. Is this possibly why there aren't any new Eldar gods aren't forming in the warp? The strictness of the craftworld promotes an emotionless life style (with violence and war feeding Khaine, seeing as anger and rage is probably the most prevalent emotion, considering the aspects), so they don't contribute much, if anything, to a new god. The amount of wanderers (that survive) and exodites are pretty small compared to the Eldar race as a whole, and the Dark Eldar continue to feed Slaanesh in their debauched life style.

Just a theory that I'm sure will be picked apart shortly...but just a thought.

Poseidal
12-05-2009, 16:43
Also, I have to ask...I've heard multiple sides on Isha. Is she really a slave to Nurgle? I've heard Nurgle has her as his "love" and tests his plagues on her, but I've also heard this is the view of a single craftworld, and isn't necessarily true. It kinda bugs me whenever I see some people say one thing, and the others quite another.
The warp is metaphysical.

Isha is the representation of the mother of the Eldar race, or perhaps the living Eldar race.

She is imprisoned by Nurgle due to the projection in the Warp of Isha by the Eldar who as a race on the whole is in a sort of state of Despair.

NightrawenII
12-05-2009, 16:57
To be fair, I think the Rhana Dandra is more of a prophecy "well lets hope that's how it happens" instead of a for sure thing. Could very well be wrong though. Plus isn't Ynnead the result of the extinction of the Eldar race given form into a god? While the idea of the Eldar pooling their souls together to destroy Slaanesh in a great, climatic act of revenge (and redeeming their race, if you think about it) is pretty damned cool, I never really saw it as a victory...at least in the typical way one thinks of a victory.

Well, Rhana Dandra is more lets hope this dont happens, because its very similar to Ragnarok, ie all Phoenix Lords die, Ynnead awake.....


I believe (my Eldar fluff-fu is weak, so bear with me) that the paths are also very strict, so craftworld Eldar are in turn, pretty emotionless. Is this possibly why there aren't any new Eldar gods aren't forming in the warp? The strictness of the craftworld promotes an emotionless life style (with violence and war feeding Khaine, seeing as anger and rage is probably the most prevalent emotion, considering the aspects), so they don't contribute much, if anything, to a new god. The amount of wanderers (that survive) and exodites are pretty small compared to the Eldar race as a whole, and the Dark Eldar continue to feed Slaanesh in their debauched life style.

Just a theory that I'm sure will be picked apart shortly...but just a thought.

heh, no its quite opposite. Exodites outnumbers Craftworlders.

WastedWhiteBoy
12-05-2009, 17:04
Aha, see, told ya my Eldar fluff was on the weak side.;) How do exodites live without worrying about the depredations of Slaanesh then? Are they similar to the craftworlders?

Idaan
12-05-2009, 18:03
The warp is metaphysical.

Isha is the representation of the mother of the Eldar race, or perhaps the living Eldar race.

She is imprisoned by Nurgle due to the projection in the Warp of Isha by the Eldar who as a race on the whole is in a sort of state of Despair.But this is, as he said the belief of minority. The majority of Eldar don't hold this belief, so there is no reason for it to be true. Belief-shapes-reality properties of Warp aside, the fact that someone believes something doesn't mean it's true. Even considering the Warp, it is majority's psychic potential that matters.

Poseidal
12-05-2009, 18:04
Aha, see, told ya my Eldar fluff was on the weak side.;) How do exodites live without worrying about the depredations of Slaanesh then? Are they similar to the craftworlders?

Firstly, their minds are further removed from the majority Eldar Psyche than the Craftworlders (and DE) because they segregated themselves long before the fall. This may not protect them completely, but it helps for the second point...

Secondly, I think their planet actually has some kind of Wraithbone structure that works like an infinity matrix. I can't remember the piece that one was from though.

Radium
12-05-2009, 18:09
Yes, the Exodites have worldspirit, which is basically a planetspanning infinity circuit.

NightrawenII
12-05-2009, 19:48
Aha, see, told ya my Eldar fluff was on the weak side.;) How do exodites live without worrying about the depredations of Slaanesh then? Are they similar to the craftworlders?

Well firstly the Exodites live very simple lives, like hmmmm.........mormons:confused: or more likely current native tribes in Africa.
Exodites have waystones as well.
And yes the Worldspirit, Infinity Circuit under different name.;)

Eumerin
13-05-2009, 06:55
Well firstly the Exodites live very simple lives, like hmmmm.........mormons:confused: or more likely current native tribes in Africa.

Nah. Mormons would be like the regular Craftworld Eldar - i.e. give up the wine and loose women. Exodites would be like the Amish.

MagrukWikkid
13-05-2009, 10:49
I thought the 'Isha is Nurgle's prisoner' thing was given as canon in the Daemons codex?

Idaan
13-05-2009, 10:51
I thought the 'Isha is Nurgle's prisoner' thing was given as canon in the Daemons codex?
It was given as canon that there is such a half-remembered myth on one distant craftworld. Doesn't mean the myth is true, does it?

MagrukWikkid
13-05-2009, 12:51
No, no it doesn't. Not being in possession of the Daemon codex (geddit?) I have to rely on second or third hand retellings of the background section in there.

brotherhostower
14-05-2009, 15:15
Avatars: I've heard tell from a few 2nd edition players that in classic EPIC there was a reference to Khaine actually BEING an aspect of Khorne (and the theory postulated that, all 40k deities ((exception being the Emperor)) boil down to being aspects of the 4 Chaos gods). I've seen (though can't find) the chart that had said it once as well, but, this is from the time where fluff included -removed by the GW Inquisition- and space lizardmen. This could even be supported in general theory by the fluff. Slaanesh comes onto the scene and kicks the collective tails of the other 3 major powers, more than enough to take his proper space within the warp, but in doing so, the Eldar (who have brought him into power) turn from their decadent ways to one honed in war (and Khaine, who never liked Slaanesh and is in constant opposition of him) distills down the portion of his essence that was "Khaine" to each craftworld, making sure that Slaanesh doesn't get the eldar as worshipers again. By that same note, you could say that Cegorach is an aspect of Tzeentch, and he saw it coming and was able to prevent Slaanesh from catching that part, and it has been postulated that Cegorach could also be the C'Tan the Deciever (Slaanesh doesn't get the spirits of Harlequins, perhaps they are protected in a place of the warp that Slaanesh can't puzzle his way through to eat, or, in the case of the deciver may simply consume those souls before Slaanesh can get to them).


BACK ON TOPIC:
SPOILER ALERT (For those who care about older fluff story stuff)







Examples of the Avatar kicking butt, the old PC game Chaos Gate (based on 2nd edition rules), the goal was getting the Avatar through the tyranid horde and he was the only one who could stop the uber Hive Tyrant from calling down the great mass of hive ships on the planet they were all battling on (And he does it with style if you win!). The game also opens with the Court of the Young King and the awakening of the Avatar (very pretty and fluffy for an older game).

There's an example in either the 2nd edition eldar codex or the necron codex about Khaine fighting off the Nightbringer. There's also the example in Shadow Point (which was a pretty good BL book in and of itself) and the Dawn of War games that were previously mentioned.

One of the short stories in one of the compendiums had a Chaos Champion hunting down this one craftworld because he was destined to see "The Heart of the Craftworld." You can guess his incorrect assumption, and the horrible murderous death that occurred after.


Generally, even in the gritty Grim Darkness of the 40k Universe, the Protagonists of their novels win, and win big. It is not nearly as often in 40k fluff that the good guys lose in their own writings. Some authors put in trivial (though not so trivial for fans) stumbling blocks, falling points, and deaths (Dan Abnett, the master of character death *grumble*), but in the end, the Protagonists of the novels do win, be it survival (Uriel Ventris books), battle (Gaunt's Ghosts), or a personal goal (15 Hours, Ragnar series). There are more books where the Eldar are NOT the protagonists, and their big card to play IS the Avatar. He is the Champion to be bested in combat (and combat is what, 90% of all BL 40k books).

Poseidal
14-05-2009, 15:31
One of the short stories in one of the compendiums had a Chaos Champion hunting down this one craftworld because he was destined to see "The Heart of the Craftworld." You can guess his incorrect assumption, and the horrible murderous death that occurred after.
This sounds awesome. Can you tell me more/which compendium it was from?

Idaan
14-05-2009, 15:54
Avatars: I've heard tell from a few 2nd edition players that in classic EPIC there was a reference to Khaine actually BEING an aspect of Khorne (and the theory postulated that, all 40k deities ((exception being the Emperor)) boil down to being aspects of the 4 Chaos gods).Why would the Emperor be an exception though?

Radium
14-05-2009, 19:25
Ha! The Emperor is just another plot by Tzeentch!

dooombot
14-05-2009, 21:54
Fulgrim only beat the Avatar because he was being powered-up by Slaanesh

Rockerfella
14-05-2009, 22:16
Avatars: I've heard tell from a few 2nd edition players that in classic EPIC there was a reference to Khaine actually BEING an aspect of Khorne Of course, there's always the possibility that Khorne is actually an aspect of Khaine, as there is an argument that Khaine was born considerably earlier (if you don't believe the 'chaos gods are as old as time and yet only 10'000 years old' stuff)
(and the theory postulated that, all 40k deities ((exception being the Emperor)) boil down to being aspects of the 4 Chaos gods). Why would the Emperor be any different to anyone else? Because he's the Epwonnrz and fathered the @SPhjess Mahreens? I dunoo... just throwing that one out there! ;)
I've seen (though can't find) the chart that had said it once as well, but, this is from the time where fluff included -removed by the GW Inquisition- and space lizardmen. This could even be supported in general theory by the fluff. Slaanesh comes onto the scene and kicks the collective tails of the other 3 major powers, more than enough to take his proper space within the warp, but in doing so, the Eldar (who have brought him into power) turn from their decadent ways to one honed in war (and Khaine, who never liked Slaanesh and is in constant opposition of him) distills down the portion of his essence that was "Khaine" to each craftworld, making sure that Slaanesh doesn't get the eldar as worshipers again. See, this is nice. I quite like this. See, the problem is, the whole nature of the Eldar gods has never been explored to the extent of the chaos gods, and unfortunately, the only decent pre fall Eldar fluff we have is the war in heaven stuff, which I think is brilliant, but many do not. Its a shame thats all we have to go on really.
By that same note, you could say that Cegorach is an aspect of Tzeentch Or visa versa... depending upon which side of the fence you stand of course!
and it has been postulated that Cegorach could also be the C'Tan the Deciever This, although not an original idea, is one i'm not personally too fond of. They do say that the deceiver woke first though. My problem with this, is that Cegorach was a creature of the warp, and snooked off to the webway to hide (and apparently still sneaks into the warp to play his 'terrible and deadly tricks upon the chaos gods to this day') meaning for me, that he can't be the deceiver because the deceiver struggles to entertain all things warpy. So... I dunoo.


There's an example in either the 2nd edition eldar codex or the necron codex about Khaine fighting off the Nightbringer. There's also the example in Shadow Point (which was a pretty good BL book in and of itself) and the Dawn of War games that were previously mentioned. Nightbringer battle is awesome. Gave us an indication and some vague idea of Eldar myths. More would be nice! Shadow point is, for me at least, the best interpretation of an Avatar to date. It thinks. Uses colossal psychic powers, and is aware of others of his kind.


One of the short stories in one of the compendiums had a Chaos Champion hunting down this one craftworld because he was destined to see "The Heart of the Craftworld." You can guess his incorrect assumption, and the horrible murderous death that occurred after. Sounds brill!

Maidel
14-05-2009, 22:58
Of course, there's always the possibility that Khorne is actually an aspect of Khaine, as there is an argument that Khaine was born considerably earlier (if you don't believe the 'chaos gods are as old as time and yet only 10'000 years old' stuff)

Or visa versa... depending upon which side of the fence you stand of course!

The eldar gods do appear to be more 'complex'

The 4 current gods are very much one dimensional. Sure there are mentions of 'other' parts to them - like khorne also being the god of noble warfare...

What seems to make more sense is that the eldar gods and the current gods are all part of the same thing with all the eldar gods being 'part' slaanesh and part something else - khaine being khorne and slaanesh etc.

So, when the war in heaven kicked off slaanesh strove to control ALL of the eldar 'pantheon' and thats where the fight with khorne comes about because he was nicking part of his power as well.

I hope some of that makes sense :D

Lord_Crull
14-05-2009, 23:09
Of course, there's always the possibility that Khorne is actually an aspect of Khaine, as there is an argument that Khaine was born considerably earlier (if you don't believe the 'chaos gods are as old as time and yet only 10'000 years old' stuff)


Where does it says anywhere that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch are 10,000 years old? Slaanesh yes. However regardless time flows differently in the warp. The Chaos gods can simultatiously exist for eternity and for 10,000 years at the same time if they wished it.

Hellebore
14-05-2009, 23:15
That story of the Heart of the Carftworld is iirc in an Inferno magazine and it is a Word Bearer character (who may or may not have been a chaplain). He would see the heart of the craftworld, something he really wanted to do so he could destroy it.

The whole thing was a misdirection by the eldar. He *may* have been told by an eldar in battle that he would be destined to see the heart of the craftword. Or it was a sorcerer or daemon. It's been ~9 years since I read it.

The Lost and the Damned states that the 3 other chaos gods were born during the middle ages (~1000AD). However, the previous book in that series, the Slaves of Darkness, states that the chaos powers are millions of years old. These are not mutually exclusive because chaos in toto does not equal the 4 chaos gods we have now. So you can say that chaos gods in general have been around for millions of years whilst the specific facets that equate to khorne et al are only a recent addition created by the emerging humanity.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
14-05-2009, 23:18
The Lost and the Damned states that the 3 other chaos gods were born during the middle ages (~1000AD). However, the previous book in that series, the Slaves of Darkness, states that the chaos powers are millions of years old. These are not mutually exclusive because chaos in toto does not equal the 4 chaos gods we have now. So you can say that chaos gods in general have been around for millions of years whilst the specific facets that equate to khorne et al are only a recent addition created by the emerging humanity.

Hellebore

Or I could be right with the fact that tiem has no meaning in the warp, a fact Gw has stated many, many times.

Maidel
14-05-2009, 23:18
Where does it says anywhere that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch are 10,000 years old? Slaanesh yes. However regardless time flows differently in the warp. The Chaos gods can simultatiously exist for eternity and for 10,000 years at the same time if they wished it.

IT does say that humanity created them - round about the year 2000 if memory serves - which makes them 38K years old.

But then again, im not surprised if a bit of fluff says we created them at the time of the great crusade.

but its not really very relavent - he was just using that as a throw away sentance to say exactly what you said here

The Chaos gods can simultatiously exist for eternity and for 10,000 years at the same time if they wished it

His implication seems to be that he had issues with this statement - which is, frankly, a retconn from earlier fluff saying that the gods were X years old and created by humanity conflicting with later fluff saying they had always existed.

Lord_Crull
14-05-2009, 23:23
IT does say that humanity created them - round about the year 2000 if memory serves - which makes them 38K years old.

But then again, im not surprised if a bit of fluff says we created them at the time of the great crusade.

but its not really very relavent - he was just using that as a throw away sentance to say exactly what you said here

The Chaos gods can simultatiously exist for eternity and for 10,000 years at the same time if they wished it

His implication seems to be that he had issues with this statement - which is, frankly, a retconn from earlier fluff saying that the gods were X years old and created by humanity conflicting with later fluff saying they had always existed.

The chaos gods are warp enetites, time has no meaning in the warp.

Hellebore
14-05-2009, 23:26
Or I could be right with the fact that tiem has no meaning in the warp, a fact Gw has stated many, many times.

Yet they contradict it with definitive statements. If time literally had no meaning to chaos then Slannesh would have been mind raping the entire eldar population in -40 million BC. They would NEVER have been able to reincarnate ever because Slannesh was and always has been eating them.

All the chaos concepts and gods created by other alien races that haven't been born yet would also be attacking the Imperium right now.

Whilst it's a nice throw away line for GW to use, they don't really follow it through, especially when making statements about the existence of gods that don't exist, the births of gods when it doesn't matter etc.

So, in an attempt to reconcile this, I would say that although the warp has no concept of time or meaning, it does when interacting with realspace. So although Slannesh 'always' existed in the warp, as soon as he attempts to affect realspace all his actions appear in realspace AFTER he was born there.

Otherwise the entire eldar race would have instantly disappeared in a puff of logic as soon as the old ones created them as some random boob tentacle monster appeared out of the future and ate them for crimes they had yet to commit.

Hellebore

Maidel
14-05-2009, 23:28
The chaos gods are warp enetites, time has no meaning in the warp.

Yes - but it does have in realspace.


Therefore, although they have existed for eternity in the warp - in real space they have to interact with real time and thus, can only appear in real space AFTER they have been created.


EDIT - damn hellbore.... ninja'd

Lord_Crull
14-05-2009, 23:33
The 4th edition Chaos marine codex says that the Chaos gods where created when the first mortal races experiance emotion.

Maidel
14-05-2009, 23:37
Well on Page 7 of the 4th edition daemons codex says that slaanesh was created by the eldar at the 'height of their power'

So - two 4th edition contradictions. You cant grab hold of one 'fluff' source and wave it infront of all the others without considering them.

Lord_Crull
14-05-2009, 23:54
Well on Page 7 of the 4th edition daemons codex says that slaanesh was created by the eldar at the 'height of their power'

So - two 4th edition contradictions. You cant grab hold of one 'fluff' source and wave it infront of all the others without considering them.

Actually Slaanesh was only awakened in M29, prior to that he was like a sleeping giant.

Caelnaethon
15-05-2009, 01:09
Actually Sllanesh was only awakened in M29, prior to that he was like a sleeping giant.
And the same probably applies to all the Chaos Gods. They started out as unconscious echoes in the Warp before some key event - usually involving a lot of emotionally charged souls being released into the Warp - gave them a semblance of consciousness, "awoke" them. The seeds of Slaanesh were sown the first time a warp-sensitive organism wanted something, but it took the worst excesses of the Eldar Fall to produce the Great Enemy him/her/itself.

brotherhostower
15-05-2009, 01:58
Yeah Hellebore, that's the short story, though it was reprinted in either Dark Millenium or... Galaxy at War maybe.

Rocker: I agree on the Deciever thing, not my cup of tea but it's the one of the "C'Tan are behind everything" rumors that keeps cropping up (along with the Machine God being the Dragon, which I think the HH Mars book discredited well enough).

As to why NOT the Emperor? Because he's a semi-sleeping deity in the same way Slaanesh is (according to the fluff of the time)... perhaps the term Proto-deity? He is, for all intents and purposes (check the Inquisition War trilogy & Realms of Chaos, if you can wade through it, that man makes Tolkien seem brief in his descriptions!) humanity's collective power made manifest. In theory, there will come a point in time when The Emperor errupts into the Warp scene in a similar fashion that Slaanesh did (IMO and generally only from fluff as read).

Khorne COULD be an aspect of Khaine, but generally, aspects are more specialized and less general. Khain is the bloody handed lord of murder, murder is only one aspect of violence and war, and Khorne is all of strife and war.

Gdolkin
15-05-2009, 03:16
The Eldar think Khaine encompasses all aspects of war and violence, not just murder. That's Fantasy Khaine :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-05-2009, 05:33
And also, its no use to refer to crazy old fluff to prove that Avatar = BT. The setting has evolved, and stuff that didnt make sense or worked, has been changed.


That has changed in recent editions, jus tlike marines are no longer psycho ciminals and IG no longer have acess to shuriken weapons and land speeders.

Just because some fluff from an edition has been overwritten doesn't mean all of the fluff from that edition has.


This sounds awesome. Can you tell me more/which compendium it was from?

Let the Galaxy Burn had it IIRC.


Why would the Emperor be an exception though?


Why would the Emperor be any different to anyone else? Because he's the Epwonnrz and fathered the @SPhjess Mahreens?

Because He didn't start out as a swirling Warp vortex of specific emotions? That just might make Him different.

Poseidal
15-05-2009, 06:02
Was'nt the time has no meaning thing a cop out because they accidentaly printed a piece of Fantasy Flut word for word in the chaos book?

Idaan
15-05-2009, 10:03
IT does say that humanity created them - round about the year 2000 if memory serves - which makes them 38K years old.
Before the birth of the Emperor in 8000 BC - it was their "creation" that caused the Shamans to commit mass suicide and create the New Man.
But how exactly in a galaxy inhabited by trillions of sentients for millions of years it's actually 5 millions of cavemen who create these gods? Didn't all other races have feelings? The Necron Codex implies that it was seeding and subsequent destruction of sentient races in the War in Heaven that created the gods.
But the 8000BC date can still be equally valid: it's the Neolithic Revolution, that is the creation of human civilisation as we know it. The first modern humans have started growing crops (Nurgle), scheming (Tzeentch), waging war (Khorne) and indulging themselves (Slaanesh) thus attracting the attention of the Chaos Gods and in part creating their modern aspects.


Because He didn't start out as a swirling Warp vortex of specific emotions? That just might make Him different. How can you prove that the God-Emperor as a Warp entity is the same soul that was the Emperor as a man? Also the most prevalent theory about the origin of the Eldar gods has at least some of them being ascended Old Ones.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-05-2009, 09:17
But how exactly in a galaxy inhabited by trillions of sentients for millions of years it's actually 5 millions of cavemen who create these gods?

I've rationalized it as that there was a god of war, a god of plagues, and a god of scheming before, but not in their current guise.

As the Eldar gods were in the ascendancy, the Chaos Gods looked to the younger races for a new face. For whatever reason (Tzeentch?), they picked a bunch of apes on a backwater planet that the Eldar had seen fit to leave alone (or didn't even notice, it's a big galaxy), and thus gained their more 'human' personages as we know them 'today' (in 999.M41).

But I really don't know. It's something GW should probably iron out, among many things.


How can you prove that the God-Emperor as a Warp entity is the same soul that was the Emperor as a man?

I can't prove that. But it's not a question of what He is now, but what He started out as. The Chaos Gods, by any account, seem to have started out as a coalescence of emotion in the Warp. The Eldar gods may or may not have (as you point out below). The Emperor was instead the focused souls of a bunch of shamans. What the difference is or how it manifests, I can't say, but to me, He doesn't seem to embody any of the aspects of the gods specifically (though the combination of His driven, bloodthirsty persona and His ability to take the long, long, long view of things seems to imply aspects of Khorne and Tzeentch). Ergo I believe He is an exception.


Also the most prevalent theory about the origin of the Eldar gods has at least some of them being ascended Old Ones.

I've seen this theory bounced around a lot, but haven't seen much in the Codices that directly supports it. Could you point me in the right direction, or is it as substantiated as my own theory on the Emperor?

Idaan
16-05-2009, 12:00
As the Eldar gods were in the ascendancy, the Chaos Gods looked to the younger races for a new face. For whatever reason (Tzeentch?), they picked a bunch of apes on a backwater planet that the Eldar had seen fit to leave alone (or didn't even notice, it's a big galaxy), and thus gained their more 'human' personages as we know them 'today' (in 999.M41).Pretty much as I see it, with the exception that they had many "faces" at the same time and it was only around the Great Crusade when Mankind dominated the galaxy when the "human" personages became dominant.


I can't prove that. But it's not a question of what He is now, but what He started out as.I didn't express myself clearly enough. I meant that the God Emperor in the warp can be a wholy different entity than the Emperor as a man. As in the life support keeps the Man-Emperor alive, but the Warp entity that everyone worships isn't him, but a "Dark Twin" (to use Kage's term) that came into being from the worship. Not that I hold onto that theory, but it's possible, isn't it?


I've seen this theory bounced around a lot, but haven't seen much in the Codices that directly supports it. Could you point me in the right direction, or is it as substantiated as my own theory on the Emperor?
Xenology clearly points to that direction, while the Necron Codex avoids mentioning the Eldar Gods at all, or at least not in the same sentence with the Old Ones.

stormblade
16-05-2009, 13:04
Yet they contradict it with definitive statements. If time literally had no meaning to chaos then Slannesh would have been mind raping the entire eldar population in -40 million BC. They would NEVER have been able to reincarnate ever because Slannesh was and always has been eating them.

Otherwise the entire eldar race would have instantly disappeared in a puff of logic as soon as the old ones created them as some random boob tentacle monster appeared out of the future and ate them for crimes they had yet to commit.



Well yeah, but then again if there is no time one couldn't really say stuff like was/ is/ will be because it indicates causality in terms of linear time(that is the time we, humans, and every other race in warhammer perceives) so an eldar, who seems to perceive time same as we do, wouldn't be able to grasp the 'always' that is 'neverending now' so the afore mentioned eldars mind would create an illusion of linear time and perceive the 'eternal now' of slaneesh eating him (or perhaps not eating him- because in our human mind we understand action as something that must have duration and duration presumes the existence of time) as something entirely else.

This brings about the question of clairvoyance and the farseers and the way they work but I really don't feel like thinking about them now.

The Emperor
16-05-2009, 16:22
Khaines still out there, in some way, shape or form. Who got the last laugh? (And don't say Cegorach...)

Definitely not Khaine. Sure, he avoided getting outright destroyed by Slaanesh, but he still ended up getting permanently crippled. I very much doubt he's celebrating his current predicament. So yeah, Slaanesh won. It was an incomplete victory, to be sure, and certainly not what Slaanesh wanted. But it was still a victory none the less. He may not have utterly annihilated Khaine as he would've liked, but he drove him from the field, crippled him, and made it so that Khaine could never directly confront him again. Sounds like a win to me.

As for the Calgar/Avatar discussion, I really don't get the complaining there. By way of comparison, a complaint which I think has merit is the one in which, what was it, a Wave Serpent, gets brought down by a bunch of human children with sticks and rocks. That's ridiculous, and the Wave Serpent/Falcon/whatever should've just plowed through them and left them bloody smears on the pavement for their parents to cry over.

The point there, though, is that ingame, there is no possible way for a human child to possibly harm a vehicle. They're, what, Str 2 at best? Most likely Str 1. And I doubt those sticks were Power Fist equivalents. But even if they were, they would've netted Str 4 total. Still not enough to penetrate a vehicle. And in the story, it didn't make a shred of sense, either. No explanation was given as to why these children were so *******' agile and strong that they could leap on a speeding grav tank and tear it apart.

We've seen similar wins to that, but although they're wins which can't be accomplished ingame, they're wins which make logical sense in the novels. For instance, I remember a Swooping Hawk destroying a Chaos Dreadnought because he piloted a jetbike into it and destroyed it. Can a single Swooping Hawk realistically destroy a Chaos Dreadnought under the game rules? No (at least not without using his Haywire Grenades, but even then the odds are incredibly long). But the way it occured storywise was realistic.

But neither of those situations is the case with Calgar Vs. the Avatar. With Calgar, we have somebody who, ingame is quite capable of killing the Avatar. The Avatar has 4 attacks, hits Calgar on a 3+, and wounds on a 2+. Calgar, however, has a 4+ Invulnerable Save and 4 Wounds which the Avatar will have to plow through. Calgar, on the other hand, has 5 Attacks, hits the Avatar on a 4+, and wounds on a 2+. The Avatar also has a 4+ Invulnerable Save and 4 Wounds to cut through, but Calgar can reroll failed To Wound rolls.

That seems fairly even to me. The Avatar hits first and a little more often, while Calgar hits a little less often with more attacks, and wounds a little more often. And they both have the same amount of defenses to chew through. So once again I ask, what's there to complain about?

It certainly isn't because the fight was particularly unrealistic, at least according to current game statistics. Those end results were very much attainable in an actual game. We're not talking about a situation involving children bringing down a grav tank or whatever. In this case, the fluff very much reflected the rules, as Calgar accomplished something in the fluff which he also could've accomplished ingame (especially if he got lucky with his Invulnerable Save rolls and the Eldar played flubbed the Avatar's Invulnerable Save throws).

Now, if you want to argue that the Avatar should be a lot more powerful (maybe S 8, T 8), than that'd be a valid argument. But I don't consider complaints about that fight to be valid because, as they currently stand ruleswise, that's a pretty straight fight only slightly tilted in the Avatar's favor and which will, for the most part, be won by the luckier party.

swaydizzle
16-05-2009, 16:32
avatar of khaine

Idaan
16-05-2009, 17:46
Calgar and Avatar is equally stupid to kids and Falcon. Kids destroyed the Falcon by throwing stones into vision slits. Falcons don't have vision slits. Calgar killed the Avatar by catching his sword (that is about three times his size) and crushing his windpipe. Avatars don't have a windpipe.

Avatar's stats don't reflect his power. It is the result of:
a) Gav Thorpe thinking that in 3e the Monstrous Creatures should be quite weak. Chaos Codex proved that that trend didn't last
b) Phil Kelly thinking that the theme of the Eldar is synergy, not powerful single units. Thematic army list>fluff.
c) Juan Diaz' metal Avatar planned for 4e codex being judged as too big for another GW release and relegated to Forge World. We were left with the old huge-handed midget model and the rules were written in accordance. Models>rules>fluff.

The Emperor
16-05-2009, 19:14
Calgar and Avatar is equally stupid to kids and Falcon.

Wow, what an asinine statement. Kids Vs. Falcon is a bunch of Str 1, I 1 creatures taking on a vehicle with armor ranging from 10-12.


Kids destroyed the Falcon by throwing stones into vision slits. Falcons don't have vision slits.

Nor under any normal circumstances in game can they possibly destroy a Falcon. Calgar, on the other hand, can kill an Avatar ingame. Comparing the two situations is absolutely ridiculous. Throw a couple kids into a game of 40k, and never in a million years will those kids ever be able to take down a Falcon. Throw Calgar into a fight with the Avatar, and he'll win 40+% of the time.


Calgar killed the Avatar by catching his sword (that is about three times his size)

With his power fist. You know, the thing which doubles his Str up to an 8? A value which exceeds even the Str of a Bloodthirster, and which allows him to rip tanks to pieces with his hands? If a Bloodthirster, with a Str 7, can wrestle with an Avatar, than Calgar, with a Str 8, can certainly accomplish that feat. Especially if the power fist is just getting damaged, and there's no associated pain with holding it as there would be if you were holding it barehanded (or had a smaller gauntlet).


and crushing his windpipe. Avatars don't have a windpipe.

From Codex: Space Marines:

"The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso."

He didn't crush his windpipe. He smashed a power fist sized hole through the Avatar's chest. Once again, not at all comparable to the Falcon. Falcon's don't have vision slits. Avatar's, however, ARE destroyed by massive damage. So a lascannon or krak missile boring a Str 9 or Str 8 hole through an Avatar's chest can kill it, but not a power fist boring a Str 8 hole through it?


Avatar's stats don't reflect his power.

Agreed. However, people constantly complain that the stuff that characters do in the books don't reflect what they can do in the game. Well, in this case, what Calgar did does in fact reflect what he can do ingame. And even if the Avatar had stats equivalent to the Bloodthirster, Calgar would still have pretty decent odds of winning. Not 50/50, but with a few lucky rolls he could still win it. Claiming that that situation is comparable to kids versus Falcon, though, is grossly disingenous.

The Emperor
16-05-2009, 19:57
And just to illustrate the point, I rolled out 10 fights between the Bloodthirster and Marneus Calgar. Note that, like in the story, these all assume Marneus charges, so he has an extra attack that first round.

FIGHT 1

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Hits 2 times, wounds 1 time, Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: 4 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 2 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 4 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 2

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 2.
Calgar: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Bloodthirster saves 2.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 2.
Calgar: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: Dead.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

FIGHT 3

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Hit 2 times. Wounded 2 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: 3 Wounds
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 3 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 4

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Hit 5 times. Wounded 5 times. Bloodthirster saves 4.

Bloodthirster: 3 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 3.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: 1 Wound.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

Round 3
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 3.
Calgar: Hit 2 times. Wounded 2 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: Dead.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

FIGHT 5

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 5 times. Wounded 5 times. Calgar saves 3.
Calgar: Hit 2 times. Wounded 2 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: 3 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 2 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 5 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 3.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 2.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 1 Wound.

Round 3
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 6

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 2 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 0.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 2 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 2.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 2.

Bloodthirster: 1 Wound.
Marneus Calgar: 2 Wounds.

Round 3
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 2.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 2.

Bloodthirster: Dead.
Marneus Calgar: 1 Wound.

FIGHT 7

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 3 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Hit 3 times. Wounded 3 times. Bloodthirster saves 3.

Bloodthirster: 4 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 2 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 0.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 4 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 8

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Bloodthirster saves 2.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 1 Wound.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 3 times. Wounded 2 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 9

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 5 times. Wounded 5 times. Calgar saves 1.
Calgar: Dead.

Bloodthirster: 4 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: Dead.

FIGHT 10

Round 1
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 0 times.
Calgar: Hit 2 times. Wounded 2 times. Bloodthirster saves 0.

Bloodthirster: 2 Wounds.
Marneus Calgar: 4 Wounds.

Round 2
Bloodthirster: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Calgar saves 3.
Calgar: Hit 4 times. Wounded 4 times. Bloodthirster saves 1.

Bloodthirster: Dead.
Marneus Calgar: 3 Wounds.

So there you go. Marneus takes it 40% of the time. So even if the Avatar's too weak, and were to be boosted to Bloodthirster levels, then Marneus could still take him 40% of the time. That's a far cry from kids with sticks on a Falcon.

Idaan
16-05-2009, 21:21
Wow, what an asinine statement. Kids Vs. Falcon is a bunch of Str 1, I 1 creatures taking on a vehicle with armor ranging from 10-12.Well, to be fair I exaggerated it a bit. And kudos to you for actually rolling these dice.


With his power fist. You know, the thing which doubles his Str up to an 8? A value which exceeds even the Str of a Bloodthirster, and which allows him to rip tanks to pieces with his hands? If a Bloodthirster, with a Str 7, can wrestle with an Avatar, than Calgar, with a Str 8, can certainly accomplish that feat. Especially if the power fist is just getting damaged, and there's no associated pain with holding it as there would be if you were holding it barehanded (or had a smaller gauntlet).But it doesn't increase his overall or even lifting strength, but rather the strength of his punches, does it?


From Codex: Space Marines:

"The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso." Okay, I mistaken that bit with the description in Fulgrim. It's actually another problem I have with that description. In "Fulgrim" the fight is described (not shown to be fair, but who'd expect skill from BL writers) to be something of godly, epic proportions, and now with Calgar accomplishing it too it shrunk into something everyday and normal. Or it just means that Calgar is comparable to a Primarch in strength.
Still, to be fair the Avatar would have to crouch or sit down and wait for Calgar to come to even enable him to reach that high:

Grindgodgrind
16-05-2009, 21:36
This sounds awesome. Can you tell me more/which compendium it was from?

This particular story (Word Bearers character hunting down an Eldar craftworld) was in 'Let The Galaxy Burn', it was one of my favourites in the collection. As Hellebore states, it was also in Inferno.

Maidel
16-05-2009, 22:03
But it doesn't increase his overall or even lifting strength, but rather the strength of his punches, does it?

Ok - then rather than lifting anything, he could just punch it...

If you think about it, its not possible - to increase the strength of the force of the punch you have to increase the strength at which he can push away from his body - which in turn would increase the strength at which he can lift.


and now with Calgar accomplishing it too it shrunk into something everyday and normal. Or it just means that Calgar is comparable to a Primarch in strength.

Im pretty certain he did it without a power glove - which, if you think about it means hes MUCH stronger than calgar who did it with a power glove.


Still, to be fair the Avatar would have to crouch or sit down and wait for Calgar to come to even enable him to reach that high:

On a rock? kicked him in the family jewels first and then punched him?

Frankly - if you consider the size, its better to imply it was punched through his chest, rather than pointing out that punching at the correct height would go right through the groin...

The Emperor
16-05-2009, 22:48
But it doesn't increase his overall or even lifting strength, but rather the strength of his punches, does it?

Yep, as Maidel points out.


Okay, I mistaken that bit with the description in Fulgrim. It's actually another problem I have with that description. In "Fulgrim" the fight is described (not shown to be fair, but who'd expect skill from BL writers) to be something of godly, epic proportions, and now with Calgar accomplishing it too it shrunk into something everyday and normal. Or it just means that Calgar is comparable to a Primarch in strength.

As Maidel points out, again, Fulgrim accomplished the same feat minus a power fist. And I wouldn't say it shrunk it to the realm of the everyday and normal. A power fist doubles your strength, making you stronger than a Bloodthirster if you're a Space Marine!

Just look at what happened to the Emperor during the Great Crusade. It's safe to say that he's a godlike being, easily on par with an Avatar, Bloodthirster, etc. And yet an Ork Warlord managed to catch him in a choke hold and nearly kill him. Why? Because the Ork was wearing a power klaw, which doubled his Str to 10! The fact that his head didn't just pop off like a grape shows how tough the Emperor is, yet despite how hard he is, an Ork Warlord very nearly greased him.

Same deal. Marneus Calgar, sans power fists, isn't much of a threat to a Bloodthirster, Avatar, whatever. Add that power fist in, though, and he becomes much more dangerous. The power fist, however, still doesn't put him on par with those creatures, though. He needs a technological aid to get that strong, whereas they're that strong naturally. In addition, he's reduced to I 1 with the power fists, while those creatures can attack in their normal Initiative order. Just look at one of those fights I posted. Despite being the one who charged, in one of them the Bloodthirster slaughtered Calgar before he even knew what was going on.

So much like that unnamed Ork Warlord, Calgar got lucky with the Avatar. He took the Avatar by surprise ("So it was that Calgar fell upon the Avatar before the other was aware of his presence, and smote the creature a dolorous and terrible blow"), and then pulled an unexpected move that the Avatar didn't see coming ("But the fourth, intended as the coup de grace to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed into the armoured palm of Calgar's left hand"), and Calgar capitalized on that moment of surprise to kill the Avatar ("and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless").

I imagine a similar situation happened with the Emperor and that Ork Warlord. The ork did something completely unexpected, caught the Emperor by surprise for a second, and he took advantage of that moment to put the Emperor into a chokehold with his power klaw. Fortunately for the Emperor, Horus saw it happen and was able to save him. If Horus hadn't been there, then it's possible that the Emperor himself would've met the very same fate that that Avatar met. Only difference is, the Avatar can come back from that. The Emperor, on the other hand, would've been dead as a doornail.


Still, to be fair the Avatar would have to crouch or sit down and wait for Calgar to come to even enable him to reach that high:

One would assume that when they wrote that, they had the standard GW Avatar in mind, not the Forge World one.


Frankly - if you consider the size, its better to imply it was punched through his chest, rather than pointing out that punching at the correct height would go right through the groin...

LOL! Yeah, writing that Calgar ripped right through the Avatars nutsack and yanked out his guts through the hole wouldn't have been an altogether glorious end for that Avatar. I'd rather not read about testicles getting ruptured after getting punched by somebody with a power fist. :wtf: Though if they had the Forge World Avatar in mind, then they could've added another sentence or two stating to the effect that Calgar's hit instead ripped off the Avatar's leg, sending it sprawling on the ground, and his next blow punched a hole through its face, finishing it off.

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-05-2009, 01:41
Pretty much as I see it, with the exception that they had many "faces" at the same time and it was only around the Great Crusade when Mankind dominated the galaxy when the "human" personages became dominant.

That does make sense.


I didn't express myself clearly enough. I meant that the God Emperor in the warp can be a wholy different entity than the Emperor as a man. As in the life support keeps the Man-Emperor alive, but the Warp entity that everyone worships isn't him, but a "Dark Twin" (to use Kage's term) that came into being from the worship. Not that I hold onto that theory, but it's possible, isn't it?

Then we're both arguing 'could be's,' aren't we?


Xenology clearly points to that direction, while the Necron Codex avoids mentioning the Eldar Gods at all, or at least not in the same sentence with the Old Ones.

Idea's growing on me. Will need to get Xenology someday.

Iracundus
17-05-2009, 03:21
I've rationalized it as that there was a god of war, a god of plagues, and a god of scheming before, but not in their current guise.

As the Eldar gods were in the ascendancy, the Chaos Gods looked to the younger races for a new face. For whatever reason (Tzeentch?), they picked a bunch of apes on a backwater planet that the Eldar had seen fit to leave alone (or didn't even notice, it's a big galaxy), and thus gained their more 'human' personages as we know them 'today' (in 999.M41).


Or rather than bend over backwards reaching for metaphysical justifications, the more straightforward one is Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch are gods of human origin. Just as Eldar had their own pantheon, and the Orks had theirs, humans developd their own racial gods. The original Realms of Chaos is quite clear in stating that Khorne rose first, then Tzeentch, then Nurgle and that by the Middle Ages all 3 were self aware.

Nowhere is it said that these 3 gods were always as powerful as they are now. Likely they were small backwater gods of a backwater civilization, and only grew in strength to their current dominant position paralleling humanity's growth to dominance in the galaxy. In turn, as Eldar civilization became decadent and began funnelling energy to the nascent Slaanesh, their own original gods grew weaker, matching the decline of traditional Eldar values and civilization.

Just as different cultures on Earth in real life had their own different gods, so do the various races of 40K. And before someone raises their hand about Slaanesh, Slaanesh would be an Eldar god that has established itself with human followers...paralleling how some gods of some ancient cultures on Earth were "exported" and gained followers in foreign cultures.

I don't know why there is this persistent drive by players to make everything "reflections", "aspects", "different faces", *whatever new semantic gyration* of the same god of one concept. It isn't that unbelievable to think the Eldar had their own god of bloodshed and the humans having their own, or humans having a god of deceit and deception and Orks having one for similar related concepts of cunning.

Hellebore
17-05-2009, 06:01
A power fist does not increase the user's strength. In 40k concepts are simplified. Strength vs Toughness equals damage. This is not very accurate.

For instance, in Dark heresy a powerfist doubles the strength bonus of the user for causing wounds, but it is independent of the calculations used for carrying capacity (which is based on the basic strength value of the character).

A power fist has an energy field that disrupts matter and causes damage. In 40k that is the equivalent of increasing the strength value and ignoring armour but it has nothing to do with literal strength. The servos in the fingers of the fist do not allow the user to lift cars, they allow CRUSHING strength, which is not the same at all. The fist is heavy, giving it more force to hit with. This does more damage, but it does not increase the wearer's strength.

If it were true a thunder hammer would allow someone to pick up a car with the end of it.

A power fist no more increases the literal strength of its user than a powered BRICK does.

In order for a power fist to increase the user's strength, it would need an attachment at the shoulder to pivot on otherwise it couldn't lift with any more force than exists in the arm as is.

In both inquisitor and dark heresy power armour increases the users strength, but a powerfist increases the users DAMAGE output. It just so happens that the two are conflated in 40k for simplification of gameplay.

Hellebore

Maidel
17-05-2009, 10:32
In both inquisitor and dark heresy power armour increases the users strength, but a powerfist increases the users DAMAGE output. It just so happens that the two are conflated in 40k for simplification of gameplay.

Hellebore

Id agree with everything you just said - if it wasnt for the numerous fluff errors where it implys it increases the users strength.

All of what you said was my understanding of how it worked, but over time ive wondered if thats actually the case.

meh, either way - calgar with a power glove would still have the 'strength of punch' probably equivalent to a primarch without a power glove.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 10:44
So there you go. Marneus takes it 40% of the time. So even if the Avatar's too weak, and were to be boosted to Bloodthirster levels, then Marneus could still take him 40% of the time. That's a far cry from kids with sticks on a Falcon.

In all fairness though Emperor, this still doesn't, for me at least, come close to explaining why a genetically altered human is even capable of results like these.

The question for me is, should Calgar have what amounts to almost an even chance of killing an Avatar or greater deamon in combat? Well... no, he shouldn't (for me- don't get stroppy folks, its just my opinion) because he's a man with extra glands and really big shoulder pads. No marine, regardless of his awesomeness, should be the equal of a greater deamon or Avatar of the god of war.

Taking the Avatar by suprise with a move it didn't expect? A creature with the highest skill in combat in the game, and a god of war to boot, with a stonking initiative? C'mon.... Or, was this literally a 'sucker' punch, johnson russ style?

A defenseless Avatar.... another oddity. Why was the Avatar incapalble of defending itself, because calgar has hold of his sword? Why didn't he use his other, four metre long arm and hulk smash? Cos thats what it would do. Its a god of war, did it run out of ideas after being punched in the chest by a man who's height only reaches his loin cloth? Thats probably why the Avatar was suprised, it coulfn't work out how Calgar had managed to hit it in the chest, being only a third of his height.

Its just the way I see it. Its supreme power creep. Save that bloated hyperbole for the Primarchs. Only a Primarch, for me, should have even odds against a greater deamon.

Not a chapter master.

Anyways.... cheers guys. :)


Or rather than bend over backwards reaching for metaphysical justifications, the more straightforward one is Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch are gods of human origin.
I don't know why there is this persistent drive by players to make everything "reflections", "aspects", "different faces", *whatever new semantic gyration* of the same god of one concept. It isn't that unbelievable to think the Eldar had their own god of bloodshed and the humans having their own, or humans having a god of deceit and deception and Orks having one for similar related concepts of cunning.

Everyone crack open the champers, becasue for once, i'm in total and absolute agreement with Iracundus here.

Good post. :)

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:07
The question for me is, should Calgar have what amounts to almost an even chance of killing an Avatar or greater deamon in combat? Well... no, he shouldn't (for me- don't get stroppy folks, its just my opinion) because he's a man with extra glands and really big shoulder pads. No marine, regardless of his awesomeness, should be the equal of a greater deamon or Avatar of the god of war.

Ive had an idea.

What if the 'power' of the craftworld is directly proportional to the power of the avatar.

We already have a 2 inch high and 5 inch high avatar - so there are different 'power' levels in place already.

SO a little craftworld will produce a little avatar that mr smurf can pound and a BIG craftworld will produce a stonking huge avatar that grinds mr two power fists into the concrete.

Its whats always annoyed me about CHAOS daemons - why in **** sake are they all the same? So you could have a 'minor' blood thirster that can be beat by papa smurf and a 'major' blood thirster who would litterally eat his soul. Maybe they should be renamed 'logical order' daemons - seeing as they are all the same. ;)

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 11:24
Ive had an idea.

What if the 'power' of the craftworld is directly proportional to the power of the avatar.

We already have a 2 inch high and 5 inch high avatar - so there are different 'power' levels in place already.

SO a little craftworld will produce a little avatar that mr smurf can pound and a BIG craftworld will produce a stonking huge avatar that grinds mr two power fists into the concrete.

Its whats always annoyed me about CHAOS daemons - why in **** sake are they all the same? So you could have a 'minor' blood thirster that can be beat by papa smurf and a 'major' blood thirster who would litterally eat his soul. Maybe they should be renamed 'logical order' daemons - seeing as they are all the same. ;)

I think thats fair, Maidel. I mean, there's nothing to suggest that the shards of Khaine that fell into the craftworlds were all of equal power and potency, is there?

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:26
I think thats fair, Maidel. I mean, there's nothing to suggest that the shards of Khaine that fell into the craftworlds were all of equal power and potency, is there?

I was thinking of more a symbiotic relationship, like a lot of eldar technology/sociology. Where as the eldar on the craftworld dwindle, the avatar dwindles with them.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 11:29
Aye, so in turn, the pure power of belief dwindles in him too I guess, which would go someway to representing the different Avatar powers, sizes and potencey.

Would it be possible then, for the statue to still exist on the craftworld, and the essence of Khaine that empowers it to survive on a craftworld devoid of Eldar? An extinct craftworld, if you will?

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:33
Would it be possible then, for the statue to still exist on the craftworld, and the essence of Khaine that empowers it to survive on a craftworld devoid of Eldar? An extinct craftworld, if you will?

Yes - so long as the craftworld still existed - if the wraithbone structure of the craftworld was still there, flowing with the spirits of the eldar, then for me, the avatar would still exist - a frozen lifeless statue with just the merest spark of existance.

He would be a ghost of himself, and impossible to wake as there would be no sacrifice, but, if the craftworld was 're-inhabited' then he could be awoken.

Have you ever read Terry pratchet 'small gods' - because if you had, id think of him as one of those 'small gods' - devoid of worshipers/believers/living eldar they are a whisper on the wind - but can return to glory if they return.

Sekhmet
17-05-2009, 11:35
LOL! Yeah, writing that Calgar ripped right through the Avatars nutsack and yanked out his guts through the hole wouldn't have been an altogether glorious end for that Avatar. I'd rather not read about testicles getting ruptured after getting punched by somebody with a power fist.

I couldn't stop laughing after reading that for a good 3 minutes.



Though if they had the Forge World Avatar in mind, then they could've added another sentence or two stating to the effect that Calgar's hit instead ripped off the Avatar's leg, sending it sprawling on the ground, and his next blow punched a hole through its face, finishing it off.
Calgar's gauntlet shimmered as it slammed into the Avatar's leg, right below the knee and severing it with an explosion of molten shards. The Marine took cover as the Avatar lost its balance and fell to the deck, metal oozing out of its leg like thick blood. Calgar pressed his advantage, scooping up the long piece of metal and promptly beat the Avatar to death with its own dismembered leg.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:40
Calgar's gauntlet shimmered as it slammed into the Avatar's leg, right below the knee and severing it with an explosion of molten shards. The Marine took cover as the Avatar lost its balance and fell to the deck, metal oozing out of its leg like thick blood. Calgar pressed his advantage, scooping up the long piece of metal and promptly beat the Avatar to death with its own dismembered leg.

You win.

The only thing that could top that was if you went back to the first example and said that calgar forced him to choke his own ba...

no, I wouldnt say that.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 12:01
Yes - so long as the craftworld still existed - if the wraithbone structure of the craftworld was still there, flowing with the spirits of the eldar, then for me, the avatar would still exist - a frozen lifeless statue with just the merest spark of existance.

He would be a ghost of himself, and impossible to wake as there would be no sacrifice, but, if the craftworld was 're-inhabited' then he could be awoken.

Have you ever read Terry pratchet 'small gods' - because if you had, id think of him as one of those 'small gods' - devoid of worshipers/believers/living eldar they are a whisper on the wind - but can return to glory if they return.

Could be possible though, that all the spirits in the craftworlds infinity circuit amalg with the essence of khaine, empowering him like never before.

I've never read those books. Sound good though! You recommend them?

Idaan
17-05-2009, 12:13
The only problem with varying Avatar power is that it still doesn't solve the problems. The Avatar that went through a continent of Orks was one of a minor Craftworld, that had awakened for the first time since the Fall.
The ones uppercut by Calgar and Fulgrim were from Alaitoc and Ulthwe, so from two of five biggest Craftworlds.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 12:27
The only problem with varying Avatar power is that it still doesn't solve the problems. The Avatar that went through a continent of Orks was one of a minor Craftworld, that had awakened for the first time since the Fall.
The ones uppercut by Calgar and Fulgrim were from Alaitoc and Ulthwe, so from two of five biggest Craftworlds.


Oh................ :rolleyes:

Lord_Crull
17-05-2009, 14:26
Oh................ :rolleyes:

Maybe the power of the avatar builds up when they are dormant? That would explain the power diffrences.

To be honest I don't see the problem with Calgar killing the Avatar, the Avatar walked through a line of heavy weapons batteries, then into a line of terminatiors, and was sucker punched from behind by one of the mighest warriors the Imperium has to offer armed with relic power fists from the dark age of technology. Despite this Calgar barely managed to do it and almost got killed in the process.

To me it's alot better than Gabrial Angelous killing an avatar in the Dawn of War novel.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 17:11
The only problem with varying Avatar power is that it still doesn't solve the problems. The Avatar that went through a continent of Orks was one of a minor Craftworld, that had awakened for the first time since the Fall.
The ones uppercut by Calgar and Fulgrim were from Alaitoc and Ulthwe, so from two of five biggest Craftworlds.

Bugger - inversely proportional to the size of the craftworld then... maybe directly proportional to the number of people the craftworld killed? Or the number of wars its been in?


To be honest I don't see the problem with Calgar killing the Avatar, the Avatar walked through a line of heavy weapons batteries, then into a line of terminatiors, and was sucker punched from behind by one of the mighest warriors the Imperium has to offer armed with relic power fists from the dark age of technology. Despite this Calgar barely managed to do it and almost got killed in the process.

You mean those daemon weapons he carries...

Lord_Crull
17-05-2009, 17:21
Where does it say they where daemon weapons? The text simply say guilliman took it from a Chaos champion. From what I understood it was a prize being fought over which Guilliman one, there is nothing indicating that it was possed by a daemon any way in the fluff.

The Emperor
17-05-2009, 17:22
I couldn't stop laughing after reading that for a good 3 minutes.

Glad you approve. :D


Calgar's gauntlet shimmered as it slammed into the Avatar's leg, right below the knee and severing it with an explosion of molten shards. The Marine took cover as the Avatar lost its balance and fell to the deck, metal oozing out of its leg like thick blood. Calgar pressed his advantage, scooping up the long piece of metal and promptly beat the Avatar to death with its own dismembered leg.

Nice! :evilgrin:

Maidel
17-05-2009, 17:23
Where does it say they where daemon weapons? The text simply say guilliman took it from a Chaos champion. From what I understood it was a prize being fought over which Guilliman one, there is nothing indicating that it was possed by a daemon any way in the fluff.

I know.... :p

Its called smurf hate.

Any opertunity I get - I cant help it - its like an illness. :D

Lord_Crull
17-05-2009, 21:50
I know.... :p

Its called smurf hate.

Any opertunity I get - I cant help it - its like an illness. :D

How is that contribuing meaningfully to the discussion?

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:00
How is that contribuing meaningfully to the discussion?

Sigh.

Its not, neither was that comment, neither have the previous 15 comments talking about punching an avatar in the nads or the knee.

Ive contributed quite a bit to the conversation now - im allowed 1 'amusing' post.

Or do you want to go back through and berate everyone who made an off topic post?

EDIT - Not to mention that the first part of the post was actually entirely ON TOPIC....

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 22:07
How is that contribuing meaningfully to the discussion?

Lighten up Crull, what are you, a machine? C'mon... he's having a jest. We're all entitled to a little banter here and there. ;)

DapperAnarchist
18-05-2009, 00:49
Having always been one of those "There is the warp storm of Rage and Violence, which has the Eldar face of Khaine and the Human face of Khorne" guys, I totally renounce that and follow Iracundus. Simple, and elegant (and it makes loads of stuff our fault! Totally 40K).

The Avatar suffers badly from Galahad syndrome... He should be a samurai made of molten iron, with a really big hairdo. Too often he is a target practice piece.

Also, this will get a bolter thrown at my head, but seriously, talk about Studio hate for the Eldar? Never mind that, Marine players is where the hate is at.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-05-2009, 04:09
Also, this will get a bolter thrown at my head, but seriously, talk about Studio hate for the Eldar? Never mind that, Marine players is where the hate is at.

This theory is one of my many, many coping mechanisms for the style and substance of the new Codex's writing. I just imagine a bunch of GW trolls sitting around in Nottingham sniggering at the rage they've produced.

Lord_Crull
18-05-2009, 11:05
Sigh.

Its not, neither was that comment, neither have the previous 15 comments talking about punching an avatar in the nads or the knee.

Ive contributed quite a bit to the conversation now - im allowed 1 'amusing' post.

Or do you want to go back through and berate everyone who made an off topic post?

EDIT - Not to mention that the first part of the post was actually entirely ON TOPIC....

I took you as responding to me.