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View Full Version : Can a Slaanesh Leadership Bomb Work Without the Masque?



bdub7777
11-05-2009, 04:43
I run a mixed list with a Keeper of Secrets, and I was wondering if a Daemon leadership bomb would be effective without using the Masque of Slaanesh to lower leadership values (the place I play at frowns upon the use of special characters).

On a separate note, do most people feel that the Masque is overpowered/broken? While it does seems a little undercosted, it's not nearly as bad as alot of the other things in the Daemon book (the Blue Scribes, Skulltaker, and Kairos come to mind).

YTY
11-05-2009, 05:02
The Masque is the most underpriced piece of **** in the whole Warhammer world. I personally would not even play against an opponent who uses The Masque in his army.

It isn't needed to say why.

Of course this is only my opinion. (though i think many others think the same)

Tarliyn
11-05-2009, 05:21
I think it is generally accepted if you want people to happily play against you more than once then dont use daemon special characters...any of them...ever...like for real ever

as a daemon player it may be hard enough as is to find an opponent (that will depend on your local play scene) but if you show up with daemon special characters to a night of friendly warhammer playing most likely people will try to avoid you

this is just from my personal exp on my local area and things i have gathered about other areas from people on this board

dsw1
11-05-2009, 05:21
I can't imagine it being as effective but it can work so long as you take the great icon of despair (-2 to ld in 12").

On the other note, I have played her before, and I'd play her again, it's no big deal. Sure she wiped out 20 skinks before a comet landed on her head (fun game) but anything wipes out my skinks i'm afraid :cries:. I wouldn't say she is OTT or under priced, and even if she was, with the daemon army being so expensive points wise, It's a fair compromise (I'd rather the special characters where under priced than the units)..

Ixquic
11-05-2009, 12:47
Masque is massively overpowered and under priced. Statwise she's basically a Woodelf altar kindred for less points and a 3+ ward save. Then add in her unstoppable ability she doesn't need line of sight for that perfectly syncs up with the strengths of the army and she just gets broken. I know a demon player that says he would pay 200 points for her and still call it a bargain.

Masque + Great Icon of Despair + Keeper of Secrets is pretty much a super broken combo that certain armies just can't deal with regardless of "tactics" or whatever. Just park the Keeper in the middle of the board touching some other fast unit, Siren Song the opponent's best unit in (or if that's protected from charging something else that might be annoying later in the game), crush it before it can even attack then just pick apart the rest of the army. You don't even NEED to do the -5 LD terror bomb. If you literally can't pass a leadership test to charge I don't know how you are supposed to play better.

danny-d-b
11-05-2009, 13:59
I still don't understand why the bloodthristed build is more broken than

level 4 kepper and the mask with any combo of heros you like

Rubicon
11-05-2009, 14:04
Bloodthirster is more common because it doesn't rely on the Special Character and it's easier to play at the end of the day (bloodthirster CHARGE!!!!) less to think about

Gaargod
11-05-2009, 17:50
Actually, one very important reason.

Namely, slaanesh LD bomb has problems when it runs up against other daemons and VC. Which there are quite a few of.

Plus, a lot of places don't allow special characters.


Anyways, Masque is just ridiculous. Most of the daemon special characters are tbh:

kairos = one of best casters in game, no questions asked. He flies and at W5, T5, daemonic robes and a 3+ ward save he's damm hard to take down.

Skulltaker = horrible for 200pts. Very hard to kill for a hero and damm scary for pretty much any character.

Blue Scribes. Seriously, 81pts? Like a tzeentch magic doom army needs more help? Yay, i get to steal more dice for my horror spam and cast a spell for free.


Not a huge fan of the others tbh. Heralds of khorne and tzeentch are good enough as it is.

Ixquic
11-05-2009, 19:27
The Keeper list doesn't do that badly against undead and other demons. Keeper will statistically kill the other three greater demons in hand to hand (especially when they need to take two -3 to 5 LD tests to do it) and can force them to charge to their doom. Concerning VC, only the Vampire Lord on Zombie dragon has a chance and even then it's only until the Keeper eats the dragon and gets rid of that pesky -1 to hit. If the Vampire has the 4+ ward he won't be moving due to failing stupidity every turn. With all the horror dispel dice, even a raising VC list won't be able to keep up with the amount of wounds that army can inflict a turn.

Slaanesh leadership combos are nasty since they affect ItP troops a good chunk of the time. Against people that care about fear and terror it's ridiculous but they are no slouches against troops that are "immune" to psychological effects.

necroyp
12-05-2009, 05:41
Yes it works.

Example

WOC ld is generally 8 so taking 2 tests on 8's still means I fail about 65% of the time.

Slanesh ld bomb is broken and not fun to play against. To back this up local tornaments are now making it a rule that if you do not get comp over 6 games of at least 20 then you cant win! (out of a possible 36). Slanesh ld bomb armies means 0 comp. One 0 in this system almost guarantess you cant win the tornament.

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 09:22
Picking demons is sort of a power-gamer move, to begin with. Throwing in a character that greatly affects your opponent just adds to the draw of the army. Is the Masque needed? No. But it does add to the leadership-dependent aspects of the army.

A friend of mine put together a list with a keeper, Masque, and two Tzeentch heralds on chariots, one with the -2 LD banner. Combining the Masque, banner, and Doom and Darkness (from the heralds with Deaht lore) he can make it impossible to pass a leadership test. It's super fun.

DirtyCajun
12-05-2009, 09:45
Keeper lose to BT and GUO in a fight statistically. In 1v1 fight a GUO with Noxious Vapours and Balesword will kill the Keeper in the first round. Insanity thirster with Immortal Fury and Collar should also beat the Keeper nearly every time.

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 11:03
Not always about a one-on-one fight between characters, but what they bring to the army. The Slaanesh spell that does more damage if the enemy can't pass a leadership test, for example, is far more advantageous as you can remove a unit with a single casting and never have to fight a combat.

vyper
12-05-2009, 11:03
I'm pretty much new to daemons, and indeed, just getting back into fantasy, and I was planning to use a LD-bomb Slaanesh army, including a Masque, but no Greater Daemons. my other Heroes would be 2 Slaanesh heralds and a Herald of Tzeentch, all on foot.

Now I'm really worried that this will be seen as massively broken, which is not what I was deliberately going for, I just happen to like the Slaanesh models a lot and Tzeentch is my second favourite, and the easiest to tie into the colour scheme.

Is this tactic really that bad, even in a strongly themed army?

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 11:07
What you're suggesting is a dampened version of the leadership bomb. So while not as effective as traditional builds, it might save on composition scores. Mostly you'd be missing the benefits of terror, halfway negating the bomb part.

Ixquic
12-05-2009, 11:16
I'm pretty much new to daemons, and indeed, just getting back into fantasy, and I was planning to use a LD-bomb Slaanesh army, including a Masque, but no Greater Daemons. my other Heroes would be 2 Slaanesh heralds and a Herald of Tzeentch, all on foot.

Now I'm really worried that this will be seen as massively broken, which is not what I was deliberately going for, I just happen to like the Slaanesh models a lot and Tzeentch is my second favourite, and the easiest to tie into the colour scheme.

Is this tactic really that bad, even in a strongly themed army?

If you go FULL Slaanesh it's not that bad. It's when you are backed up by horrors to get easy dispel dice, and have the banner on a guy with a 0+ save 5+ ward movement 7" or on a flying chariot along with the Masque it starts to get broken.

Tarliyn
12-05-2009, 17:04
I personally don't think that a leadership bomb army has a place in friendly, fun, hey its game night at my store lets play a warhammer game kinda game

it isn't fun to play against at all,

there is actually only one daemon player at my gaming club I will play with and that is because

1) he is awesome to play with
2) he went and bought/constructed/painted his daemon army before the dang book came out just so when it did he was ready...ie he was very excited for the daemons because he loves them
3) he actively tries to make the games fun by allowing rerolls if something went horribly bad, not making his list rediculous, not taking special charactes even though he likes the fluff of them

he is really concerend with the fun factor of games and not the winning factor and that makes it where I am more then willing to play him despite the fact that he has daemons, the 2 other daemon players in my game store....I won't play them because I despise the daemon book and they aren't as proactive as that guy is to make sure for good fun games

My point with all this is if you want people to want to play with you don't play annoying lists, make sure to go over the top in insuring that games are enjoyable, and don't play broken lists...otherwise daemons players sometimes have a hard time playing games

oh and I am not the only person in my game store who feels this way, luckly those other two players have other armies so they always get games in even if it isn't always with their daemons

vyper
12-05-2009, 23:04
What then would you recommend as a fair, but effective Daemon list that would use primarily Slaaneshi daemons, and secondly Tzeentch daemons?

Tarliyn
13-05-2009, 02:12
just so you don't think I am ignoreing your response


let me look through my daemons book tonight and I will get back to you

remeber that though part of it is the list you play the other part is how you play it

the reason I don't mind playing against the one person at my game store is how he has kinda bowed to the fact that the daemon army is a bit over the top and he trys to make up with it for with his attitude

attitude goes a super long way

Kevlar
13-05-2009, 06:02
How does the leadership bomb thing work against frenzied troops? I mean I play skaven and mostly use plague monks and censer bearers (frenzy) as my hitters, a seer on a bell with stormvermin (ITP) and try to cast death frenzy on my important units like jezzails so they don't get panic. Does the leadership bomb somehow stop frenized troops or ITP troops?

Ixquic
13-05-2009, 17:24
How does the leadership bomb thing work against frenzied troops? I mean I play skaven and mostly use plague monks and censer bearers (frenzy) as my hitters, a seer on a bell with stormvermin (ITP) and try to cast death frenzy on my important units like jezzails so they don't get panic. Does the leadership bomb somehow stop frenized troops or ITP troops?

Terror bombing them won't work but the Keeper will run up and either force your Jezzails to charge it or something else that might be a threat. Anything that charges the Keeper won't be getting any attacks back after it wrecks the front rank. After which it will just be a game of the faster demon units picking through what's left of the army.

A good Slaanesh build doesn't NEED to terror bomb you off the table, it just makes the game faster if it can.

Kevlar
13-05-2009, 22:29
Terror bombing them won't work but the Keeper will run up and either force your Jezzails to charge it or something else that might be a threat. Anything that charges the Keeper won't be getting any attacks back after it wrecks the front rank. After which it will just be a game of the faster demon units picking through what's left of the army.

A good Slaanesh build doesn't NEED to terror bomb you off the table, it just makes the game faster if it can.

Ah doesn't sound too bad then with 2d6 str 5 attacks coming his way from 3 engineers, not to mention warp lightning cannon, 10 jezzails, and 4 or 5 ratling guns which can all shoot into close combat. Dead keeper turn 2?

Ixquic
13-05-2009, 23:00
Ah doesn't sound too bad then with 2d6 str 5 attacks coming his way from 3 engineers, not to mention warp lightning cannon, 10 jezzails, and 4 or 5 ratling guns which can all shoot into close combat. Dead keeper turn 2?

I think you're underestimating the ability of demon armies to shut down magic phases and their maneuverability to avoid fire. I do agree those that an army that just pumps out a lot of shots has the best chance of success though.

Kevlar
14-05-2009, 00:56
I think you're underestimating the ability of demon armies to shut down magic phases and their maneuverability to avoid fire. I do agree those that an army that just pumps out a lot of shots has the best chance of success though.

Well the one thing the Skaven has going for it is he can't get stuck in close combat to avoid the shooting. It makes the gun line work a little bit better, especially against a large target.

Troah
14-05-2009, 01:10
I'm not very familiar with Chaos, what is a Slaanesh Leadership Bomb?

Kevlar
14-05-2009, 01:25
The mask special character can lower 1 units leadership by 1d3, and there is a banner which lowers it by 2. Seems like people think they stack instead of just taking the higher of the two. I wonder if there is an faq on that. I know GW doesn't let a lot of things stack on top of one another, seems to me you should only take the higher of the two, not add them together. Oh and the keeper can use a power which makes you have to pass a leadership test to attack it, so with -5 leadership not much can pass.

Rupposed
14-05-2009, 04:23
Demon FAQ does indeed address this, and you can stack leadership penalties from the Masque and the banner. And anything else you can think of.

Kill-Freedom
14-05-2009, 06:42
Its a war game!!!!!!!!!!! do what you can to win

Rupposed
14-05-2009, 07:09
Eh, still a game to be enjoyed. In fact, it's "The most important rule!"

danny-d-b
14-05-2009, 08:12
How does the leadership bomb thing work against frenzied troops? I mean I play skaven and mostly use plague monks and censer bearers (frenzy) as my hitters, a seer on a bell with stormvermin (ITP) and try to cast death frenzy on my important units like jezzails so they don't get panic. Does the leadership bomb somehow stop frenized troops or ITP troops?

well rather than makeing you auto faill fear, more likely to cast mass stupidy spells at you so most of the time your hoard is stumbling forward

Storak
14-05-2009, 08:48
I run a mixed list with a Keeper of Secrets, and I was wondering if a Daemon leadership bomb would be effective without using the Masque of Slaanesh to lower leadership values (the place I play at frowns upon the use of special characters).

On a separate note, do most people feel that the Masque is overpowered/broken? While it does seems a little undercosted, it's not nearly as bad as alot of the other things in the Daemon book (the Blue Scribes, Skulltaker, and Kairos come to mind).

the masque is one of the most broken characters in the game. add 100 points to the price, and players will still take it.

Daxio
14-05-2009, 19:09
I have played against this combo only recently, in a friendly, and the keeper, with entourage, tore through several dark elf units. We were playing an objectives based game which had to be held by only core troops. I had despatched his 3 units of horrors, so he had nothing to hold them with, hence I won. However in a straight up pitched battle I would have been dark elf pate. Not nice to experience at all.

vyper
18-05-2009, 12:33
Apologies for bumping this up from page 3, but nobody has managed to answer my question.

I am a returning player to fantasy and I've been starting to paint up some Slaaneshi Daemons. Ideally I want to make a Slaanesh/Tzeentch themed force (Tzeench daemons having been literally bound and tied down into servitude, balls and chains, and daemonettes with whips and such.)

Now my original plan was to go with a leadership bomb theme including, two Slaaneshi hearalds, one Tzeentch herald and the Masque.

Now as people here seem to say that this army is not fun to play against, which is not my aim, what would you people recommend.

The army needs to be:
Daemons of Chaos
2000pts
Primarily Slaanesh, secondarily Tzeentcg EDIT:: Pah, meant the other way around! But thank you theunwatedbeing.
Fun to play against
Fairly fluffy

Anyone care to help? I can post my current list if it is required.

theunwantedbeing
18-05-2009, 12:43
What would we recommend?

We recommend that you dont take the masque, or any other special character for that matter.

This way you've already taken a giant leap towards a "fun" army to play against before your list even exists.

Core, 2 big blocks of horrors and a number of smaller blocks of daemonettes.
Special, a unit of screamers, maybe some seekers.
Rare, a small unit of flamers at most, make sure to take at least one fiend.

Character's.
Feel free to take either greater daemon, the lord of change is going to be more "tzeentch based" so your best with that. Take a slaaneshi BsB, possibly on a chariot.

And there you go, a fairly fun army to face against.
Magic is reasonably heavy, but not overly so.
You have combat abilities in the form of the flamers, fiends, screamers and seekers.(as well as the character's).
You have a marginal amount of shooting (getting to do anything in the shooting phase is more fun that skipping it completely).

Nothing people will have to complain at either really.
Not the strongets list in the universe but those are rarely fun to play against.

danny-d-b
18-05-2009, 14:00
I'm not very familiar with Chaos, what is a Slaanesh Leadership Bomb?
seriouly mate, either get the book or go away
for your infomation the leadership bomb is the mask (-D3 leadership) and the banner of -2 leadership, no try takeing fear/terror checks, plus most of the spells in the slanech lore use your LD in some way

Lijacote
18-05-2009, 15:03
seriouly mate, either get the book or go away
for your infomation the leadership bomb is the mask (-D3 leadership) and the banner of -2 leadership, no try takeing fear/terror checks, plus most of the spells in the slanech lore use your LD in some way


Please spend money because I can't bother answering, and just the thought of someone not buying every book in existence or being new to the game is foreign to me... must be a troll


Yeah. Welcome to the Internet, the land of free information. Oh and, the book doesn't have a list of terms used on Warseer.