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htj
11-05-2009, 15:08
The question of racial characteristics in GW's miniatures come up frequently, and gender too. I was wondering, how many of you have ever seen an army painted or converted to be non-caucasian male. Better yet, do you play one? Excluding xenos armies, that is. That's kind of cheating.

DarkMatter2
11-05-2009, 15:11
The female thing is way overdone IMHO.

I have only occasionally seen a few models here and there in an army be painted other than caucasian, but there are a few.

I have never seen a specifically black painted Guard or Marine army though.

eltanko
11-05-2009, 15:13
i dont have any myself, but quite a few salamanders marines i have seen have been very dark skinned brown/black

ElTanko

Lovejoy
11-05-2009, 15:13
The early Salamanders were often Afro styled. There were a few around in the RT days. Other than that, not much.
Speaking as a sculptor, it's not easy to do a convincing black head in 28mm without it looking like a caricature.

From a gender POV, we've had female BloodBowl teams, early Warhammer had Amazons (armed with bolt pistols!) and of course, SOB.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
11-05-2009, 15:16
My Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are all multiracial (one of my Canonesses is black, even). Other than that, racial diversity really just seems up to the player.

Sadly, I don't see any of it in GW's studio armies, with the exception of the Salamanders and White Scars. On the other hand, I remember being pleasantly surprised upon discovering that the Inquisitor in the first Dawn of War game was black.

Bloodknight
11-05-2009, 15:23
Black paintjobs don't photograph that well, and when something else than Caucasians are depicted, the features tend to be overexaggerated (else you would not notice), but that can lead to a pretty insulting image, thus it is easier and safer from a political correctness POV to stay with the Whites. Just look at the Dogs of War Hobgoblin regiment.

That said, most facial features on human minis aren't very human anyway.

Cheitan Shadowless
11-05-2009, 15:25
My Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are all multiracial (one of my Canonesses is black, even). Other than that, racial diversity really just seems up to the player.
Kudos on putting that effort into your painting. :)

I think we probably don't see this too often because it demands just that - extra effort. Once somebody has learned how to paint one colour of skin to a satisfactory quality, they probably aren't very inclined to buy other paints and inks and learn how to use those well. And since it's probably not unreasonable to assume most players in both the US, UK and central Europe are caucasian in appearance, they'll likely just be predisposed to choose that as their point of reference.

Also, I agree - Inquisitor Toth was a bit of a pleasant surprise. Quite different from the stereotypical inquisitor - a caucasian, heavily scarred, visibly aged, zealous man - while still fitting the 'norms' of what an inquisitor is.

MajorWesJanson
11-05-2009, 15:28
I have a mix, because honestly I get tired of painting all the same color :D

Bekenel
11-05-2009, 15:29
Doesn't help that the only flesh colours are caucasian ones.

I don't have many un-helmted Space Marines, but I have mixed it up a little with those. My Cadians I try to have non-Whites in, but my Praetorians are unfortunately all white.

Ozorik
11-05-2009, 15:34
My Catachan army was entirely 'south american' (I'm not sure of the correct terminology). It just made sense from a fluff point of view.

The skin tone with my armies depends on what they are supposed to represent. My Empire is entirely white while another of my IG armies was fairly mixed.

Gender is another issue but given that GW aims its products at 14 year old boys its not entirely suprising that the only women are scantily clad and improbably breasted (or nuns in space). Its the exact same phenomenon in gaming.

SylverClaw
11-05-2009, 15:35
Looking back to the first release of IG there was a mixed (by that I mean crusade style) army with a number of black Catachan's in it. It suited the metal Cats quite well if I remember right.

Broadly speaking, I guess it's marketing more than anything. The core buyer here is the young white male. You obviously want your models to be something they can feel familiar with; so for the most part studio models are white.

Maybe that's a bit of a cynical outlook? Hmm.

For my own purposes it's because I suck a painting faces. I've tried black before and it comes out as if I was trying to do a minstrel. Not at all good. I may revisit the attempt next time I do some Cats or Tallarn and try a bit of a mixture, as I think my skills have improved a little bit since the last go.

htj
11-05-2009, 15:38
Gender is another issue but given that GW aims its products at 14 year old boys its not entirely suprising that the only women are scantily clad and improbably breasted (or nuns in space). Its the exact same phenomenon in gaming.

And comics.

I would like to throw some females into my Cadian based army but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. I really don't want them to look like buxom Amazonian sex-pots, I want them to look only slightly different than the males. Not sure how to proceed on that one.

Sir_Turalyon
11-05-2009, 15:39
Flufwise, most of humanity lived away from Terra long enought for Squats, Ratlings and Ogryns to evolve, so it would be foolish to expect any 3rd millenium genotype to be represented in "pure" form in 40k. At any rate, none of people my 40k miniatures represent had anything to do with Caucas... perhaps except Demolition Man from Last Chancers range ;) .

This said, probably 1/10 of my non-gasmask guardsmen are painted as blacks, using scorched brown as base colour. It's very homeworld dependent, Catachans have about 50% of them, Cadians and Stormtroopers about 1/5 to 1/4, Valhallans and Mordians have none. It works pretty authentic, at least to my untrained eye; the face scupults are generic enough for paint job to fit.

No idea how to paint a Guardsman as asian through, all my attempts ended as failures. any ideas?

Bob Hunk
11-05-2009, 15:44
Well my Deathwing are all Native American, and my Crimson Fists are Hispanic...although with only one model in each army not wearing a helmet, the only real way to tell is by names and heraldry. :D

SylverClaw
11-05-2009, 15:45
Flufwise, most of humanity lived away from Terra long enought for Squats, Ratlings and Ogryns to evolve, so it would be foolish to expect any 3rd millenium genotype to be represented in "pure" form in 40k.

This is a good point.

In Heavy Gear (if I remember right) race was dismissed as an issue because everyone had mixed so much people were all an in-between colour rather than a definate ethnical background (but with giant anime eyes, obviously).

I think much the same can be said of 40k, fluffwise, broadly. Though there would of course be local variations because of certain old colonies etc.

To be honest I think it's a none issue. I just like the idea for a bit of variety.

SPYDER68
11-05-2009, 15:46
On my IG i have tried to evently mix skin color throu the entire army for variety of goodness, and it adds to it alot to see different Guardsmen fighting along side of eachother.

Ozorik
11-05-2009, 15:48
Well many Imperial planets have been settled for, lets say, 30,000 years. Thats more than enough time for their inhabitants to adapt physically to their world. There will of course be local variation but there are only so many shades of brown people can go.

htj
11-05-2009, 15:54
There will of course be local variation but there are only so many shades of brown people can go.

Until the Inquisition step in.

My fledgeling Cadian model based guard army is recruited from a hive world so I was considering trying out some almost albino skintones, ala House Delaque.

The Clairvoyant
11-05-2009, 15:56
I used to have a squad of catachans which had 1 painted as non-caucasian and it suited the model well. i must admit, my reason for painting for him like that was because i already used that model once in the squad (they were the old metal catachans) and i wanted them all to be different.

I have a few in my zombie regiments for fantasy too.

gonzosbignose
11-05-2009, 16:02
I'm probably going to get hate mail for this, but i have a penal legion of guardsmen where there is proportionally more black people than causcasians.

All of the abites are painted as caucasian, however, as a twist, the supreme judge, and also his command squad are all black.

Some people have given me grief over doing mutli racial army, and i think it would be the last time i did it, especially considering toeing the line in terms of racial stereotypes...

Regards

My name is Daniel and i am a wargamer

Max1mum
11-05-2009, 16:04
To be honoust, i have never ever spend a moments thought on this matter, up until now. I never even consider that there could be diversity in this matter....

Sure i have painted healthy Troopers and some unhealthy chaos marauders, but always from the same elf/dwarf flesh starting point...this has to change...


Thank you for the heads up !

Thud
11-05-2009, 16:05
I've tried to paint black skin several times, but it always ends up looking horrible, so I just stick with white.

alexgrunt
11-05-2009, 16:07
Well, my IG is multiracial and multigender (I still use RT era troopers), as is my Tau army (loads of auxilliaries/miner gangs including squats)...
Anyway, Now I know the only "good" color is GREEN :D

AfroCelt
11-05-2009, 16:14
I'm in the process of making the Valhallan 597th, a 50/50 male/female split regiment (from the Cain fluff). At least one of the minor characters (Sulla or the Jinx one) are also darker skinned, so it'll be entertaining for the double-whammy.

rossatdi
11-05-2009, 16:17
I have the odd black (apologies, not good at picking the correct word) in my IG army. It's a good way to differentiate men when you're using old metal minis with a limited number of poses in a 100+ men army!

I enlisted some of my Escher gang into the same IG army after we stopped playing necromunda, one's even a squad leader (only so many autogun / lasgun Escher models!).

I intend every member of the Grey Knight army I am working on to have a helmet on!

===

As for the general question I don't think its a major issue but considering the existing treatment (the oriental looking Marines happen to be the 'Genghis Khan' army) is a bit primitive). The odd non-Slamanders marine that wasn't Caucasian wouldn't really go amiss.

Alx_152
11-05-2009, 16:20
My IG are dark skinned. The only caucasians in my IG are the commissars, since according to fluff they are not from the same planet.

Bloodknight
11-05-2009, 16:28
Space Marines in mixed skin colours make no sense because their skin reacts to their environment and go for the most useful colour. Put a squad of Marines into northern Europe...all white. Put them in the Sahara, all black.

Salamanders are the exception, because they are literally black, all the time.

Corrode
11-05-2009, 16:29
As for the general question I don't think its a major issue but considering the existing treatment (the oriental looking Marines happen to be the 'Genghis Khan' army) is a bit primitive). The odd non-Slamanders marine that wasn't Caucasian wouldn't really go amiss.

They did actually make the Salamanders 'black' now, rather than Negroid. They're no longer 'people of colour' so much as 'evil-lookin' daemonmen'.

Col. Kurtz
11-05-2009, 17:12
I have an imperial guard that has a healthy mix of skin tones, from pale almost white, caucasian, asian, native american, and african american. It really helps break up the boredom when you're painting all those grunts to make it different. I also use a mix of cadian and catachan bits to give it a bit more of a "on campaign" feel rather than a "just out of basic" feel

dugaal
11-05-2009, 17:43
I hate painting skin for the most part; So much of my IG have masks of some kind to save me the trouble.

Those that do have skin are about a 70/30 white/minority mix. Because the base color is brown on them, they were black so long as I didn't finish the model...

On the topic of females in 40k, I think GW have done them OK service for the armies which should have them. DE and Eldar have mixed females, while army women would be indistinguishable in Cadian armor (though the manly faces ruin the idea) and there are a few Catachan and Gaunts Ghost females.

Fideru
11-05-2009, 18:00
I've tried to paint black skin several times, but it always ends up looking horrible, so I just stick with white.

Exactly the same with me. I just cannot paint the black skin tone.

Sir_Turalyon
11-05-2009, 18:05
Scorched brown is your friend...

aberrant_unc
11-05-2009, 18:06
I think the reasons for this are threefold

1. Most of the minis are sculpted to look like white people. The noses, face structure, etc. looks like a white guy on most minis.

2. African-American looking skin is more difficult to paint well and make look good - seriously, try it once, it is tough.

3. When you are able to make it look good, it comes across exaggerated and racist.

Iverald
11-05-2009, 19:27
I think the reasons for this are threefold

1. Most of the minis are sculpted to look like white people. The noses, face structure, etc. looks like a white guy on most minis.

2. African-American looking skin is more difficult to paint well and make look good - seriously, try it once, it is tough.

3. When you are able to make it look good, it comes across exaggerated and racist.

QFT

I've painted some Anima Tactics minis as a commision using dark skintones and they look good, though I must admit, that I followed the artworks which the blisters included.
The minis lacked ethnic features, they were rather caucasian/asian than negroidal.
Nevertheless, some people were surprised to see dark skintones on a series of minis :rolleyes:

I do think that Catachan models would look great with dark skintones, and maybe even Cadians. I've yet to try.

As it was mentioned earlier, use Schorched Brown, mix it with a little Dark Flesh or Bestial Brown (both work well for different tones) for the highlight, and for the second highlight (always use two highlights) pure Schorched Brown mixed with Bleached Bone. The proportions are up to you, but don't overdo it. If you need to tone the flesh down, use Devlan Mud wash (or Badab Black, again for different tones.

Should you care to learn some more, please follow the linky, it helped me a lot:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/go.php/go/articlephp/aid/310/page/1?

Hope this will be of some use. :)

Monospot
11-05-2009, 19:36
I use a mixed racial background with my Inquisition henchmen and my space marines. My IG is all caucasian, simply because its easier to speedpaint.

Emperors Teeth
11-05-2009, 20:03
I painted our GW stores inquisitor when Codex: Daemon Hunters came out... I painted him with black skin. But I also painted his cloak a velvety purple and the fur around his neck like tiger fur! I called him the 'Pimpquisitor'!

Sleazy
11-05-2009, 20:06
I painted my Salamanders black - african black rather than the jet black.

Quite a few of my catachans are black too.

I agree though, its a lot trickier than white skin.

Iverald
11-05-2009, 20:06
this should work well with Inq Eisenhorn mini :D

madprophet
11-05-2009, 20:08
I play Valhallans - so for me, multi-racial means Slavs, Tartars and Poles :-) Seriously, I am Un-PC in that my army is 100% Caucasian (but hey, they are Space Russians!)

I did make a few of my troopers female - I converted some snipers from the old I-Kore range (they had a woman in a greatcoat that I did a weapon swap with the help of some space marine scout sniper bitz), because many of the best Soviet snipers of WWII were women. I used a female mercenary warcaster from the Warmachine line as the basis of a veteran sergeant because the Soviets were fond of including a few token female NCOs in most companies. I made some basic troopers from Amazon heads (I bought them as bitz many moons ago) swapped into basic trooper bodies with a boob line added with green stuff (no DDD cups here, I kept things to a rather modest B cup :) ) just because.

Iverald
12-05-2009, 14:22
I play Valhallans - so for me, multi-racial means Slavs, Tartars and Poles :-) Seriously, I am Un-PC in that my army is 100% Caucasian (but hey, they are Space Russians!)


How do you distinguish Slavs form Poles of vice versa? Just curious. ;)

I could not care less about the PC thing. Before you kill me, or label me racist, read my two previous posts in this thread. PC is about how to be correct (duh), I want to be polite and show respect to other people because I want to, not because some rules tell me to, and how. There.

Panzerkanzler
12-05-2009, 15:09
I personally always paint my minis as caucasians (my tau are obviously an exception :p). I do that because I myself am caucasian, because the end product is more appealing to my eye, because it's easier to paint and because in a toy soldier game I don't give a **** for being politically correct. I get enough of that in real life.

madprophet
14-05-2009, 00:27
How do you distinguish Slavs form Poles of vice versa? Just curious. ;)
The Poles are in 1st Platoon, the Slavs in 2nd and the Tartars in 3rd :D


I could not care less about the PC thing. Before you kill me, or label me racist, read my two previous posts in this thread. PC is about how to be correct (duh), I want to be polite and show respect to other people because I want to, not because some rules tell me to, and how. There.
I quite agree but what I fail to understand is how my painting a Space Russian as Caucasians is racist? Is it racist for someone else to paint their Catachans are Africans? It's just silly. Paint 'em any way you want, they're your little plastic/pewter dudes. :angel:

Hellebore
14-05-2009, 01:13
My Catachan army was entirely 'south american' (I'm not sure of the correct terminology). It just made sense from a fluff point of view.

The skin tone with my armies depends on what they are supposed to represent. My Empire is entirely white while another of my IG armies was fairly mixed.

Gender is another issue but given that GW aims its products at 14 year old boys its not entirely suprising that the only women are scantily clad and improbably breasted (or nuns in space). Its the exact same phenomenon in gaming.

I don't know, I think that warhammer and 40k are both very respectful of women on the whole imagewise at least (warhammer is afterall set in a medieval world where historically women had less rights than men). They are far less likely to have highheel chainmail bikini women than many other settings.

And of those that are scantily clad, you either have male counterparts making it moot, or they aren't human anyway. ie, dark elf wyches are male and female (and because of the need to cover chests, the males are actually more naked than the females), witch elves are also scantily clad but that's actually part of their religion (to tempt the enemy to strike their bare flesh and prevent them from doing so), whilst daemonettes are andrgynous daemons and harpies are monsters.

Marauders run around in fur undies and are all male. Slayers are the same.

So really, warhammer and 40k has far more mostly naked MEN in it than it has females.

A fully armoured female in warhammer is generally indistinguishable from the males, unlike say World of Warcraft.

Perhaps there is some objectification but of all the settings out there, warhammer is one of the best in terms of depicting women in sensible clothes whilst fighting.

EDIT: I remember it being a massive whinge amongst players of warhammer online. They wanted their chainmail bikinis so they could 'differentiate' between the male and female characters. Of course, being GW IP, only those characters that actually wear that stuff got it. So the only scantily clad females in the game are witch elves and sorceresses. Female warrior priests, witch hunters, white lions, sword masters, rune priests, ironbreakers, archmages, shadow warriors, and especially the Black Guard (who are even harder to pick the sexes of) all wear sensible clothes that is a feminine version of the male clothing (or vice versa).

Hellebore

Lord of Worms
14-05-2009, 01:26
The question of racial characteristics in GW's miniatures come up frequently, and gender too. I was wondering, how many of you have ever seen an army painted or converted to be non-caucasian male. Better yet, do you play one? Excluding xenos armies, that is. That's kind of cheating.

Ohhh, I know a Tau player when I hear one...;)

self biased
14-05-2009, 01:29
i had a buddy whose entire 300 strong guard infantry army sported dark flesh tones.

Firaxin
14-05-2009, 01:54
I recently started an IG regiment based on the South African National Defense Force. All black, needless to say.

But all my other guard regiments, my space marines, my chaos marines, and my ad mech, are all 100% white.

Hmm... I guess my tyranids are multi-colored?

No females in any of them, sadly. I'm not good with the greenstuff.

DaSpaceAsians
14-05-2009, 02:18
No idea how to paint a Guardsman as asian through, all my attempts ended as failures. any ideas?

Simple, you paint the skin with skull white and wash it with gryphonne sepia.

As for the skin of my regiment, there's a mix of white and asian. The backstory is that the 450th Vietnamese was formed with a mix of cadian shock troopers and locals from the planet of Vietnam. The Cadians were sent as military advisors and formed the bulk of the troops until the regiments from the planet were slowly being ''Vietnamised''.

Kburn
14-05-2009, 04:24
How do you paint east asian? Their skin is very fair too, and its not too easy to paint a significant difference on a mini....What I do is just paint the 'hair'(stubble) black, but there's no significant variance.

Also, I'm interested on how to paint skin tones that are american indian-like, because I think they have really nice skin. Any tips?

Iverald
14-05-2009, 09:57
I quite agree but what I fail to understand is how my painting a Space Russian as Caucasians is racist? Is it racist for someone else to paint their Catachans are Africans? It's just silly. Paint 'em any way you want, they're your little plastic/pewter dudes. :angel:


Sir, I am terribly sorry if you took this as an attack on you. My heartfelt apologies. :(

My personal opinion on PC was intended as a side remark. For who am I to judge anyone?

The "obligation" to include minorities IS somewhat stupid, especially, if, as you said, they are represented by toy soldiers.

If I wanted to do a PC Polish-themed Army, I would have to include at least 1 Black person, 1 gay person, one transsexual person, at least 3-4 Germans 1 Jewish person, 1 Tatar and 1 Roman person, 1 Ukrainian person and one Russian person. Oh, and at least 10-person squad of Polish women, and 4 women in HQ.
Can anyone tell me how to distinguish most of them enough as not to offend anyone? :rolleyes:

Edit:

How do you paint east asian? Their skin is very fair too, and its not too easy to paint a significant difference on a mini....What I do is just paint the 'hair'(stubble) black, but there's no significant variance.

Also, I'm interested on how to paint skin tones that are american indian-like, because I think they have really nice skin. Any tips?

Start with Dark Flesh as a base and highlight with Tanned Flesh if available (or equivalent colour from Vallejo Game Colour).

maze ironheart
14-05-2009, 10:19
The question of racial characteristics in GW's miniatures come up frequently, and gender too. I was wondering, how many of you have ever seen an army painted or converted to be non-caucasian male. Better yet, do you play one? Excluding xenos armies, that is. That's kind of cheating.

Yes I've seen some armys using non-caucasian salamander army and one player using female slaanesh chaos space marine army.

SylverClaw
14-05-2009, 10:44
and one player using female slaanesh chaos space marine army.

Hoho... now there is an interesting idea. Sex-change chaos space marines seems rather slaanesh-fluffy to me. Would make quite a good converstion army I think.

Brother xavier
14-05-2009, 10:47
I painted some of my catachans dark flesh, they look cool, might paint the whole army it. . .

DaSpaceAsians
14-05-2009, 11:03
How do you paint east asian? Their skin is very fair too, and its not too easy to paint a significant difference on a mini....What I do is just paint the 'hair'(stubble) black, but there's no significant variance.

Also, I'm interested on how to paint skin tones that are american indian-like, because I think they have really nice skin. Any tips?
For the East Asian
Just estimate when there's enough gryphonne sepia and highlight (or in my case dry) adeptus battlegrey and wash it